Joe Rogan Experience #2384 - Mark Kerr

Narrator 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. (drumbeats)

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Good. Mark, what's happening?

Mark Kerr 0:14 Joe.

Joe Rogan 0:15 Dude, the movie's fantastic. And I, and I know I told you outside, but I wanted to save it. Uh, when I kind of have a, had a little bit of a prejudice when I went to see the movie. I was like, "Okay, it's gonna be an MMA movie."

Mark Kerr 0:26 Yeah.

Narrator 0:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:26 But it's not. It's a movie that happens to be about MMA, but it's a great movie.

Mark Kerr 0:32 Oh, I appreciate that.

Joe Rogan 0:32 It's, it's really good, man. It's, it's like, you know, it's v- very gripping, and the performances are fantastic, and the way The Rock did you was nuts.

Mark Kerr 0:43 I, like, I can't explain it. Uh, it, I, I keep using the word surreal, but it doesn't describe it. Um, like I was saying that, uh, my son, when he watched it, and just flipping out, like, talking to me, like on the side, like I was saying, like literally just going, "Dad, Dad, he's got your mannerisms."

Narrator 1:04 (laughs)

Mark Kerr 1:04 "He's got your speech manner." But if you imagine, like I'm, I'm picturing my son, he's in New York when he watched it. Like-

Joe Rogan 1:10 Right.

Mark Kerr 1:10 Uh, and so I'm picturing him in the corner of the lobby of the theater, talking with his back to everybody going, "Oh my God, Dad, like, it's like a doppelganger."

Narrator 1:20 (laughs)

Mark Kerr 1:20 "He's got all of it." You know, like full-blown, like, it was like the, the, the, 'cause a lot of my saying for myself is I'm, uh, I can't see the forest through the trees. I'm in the middle of it. Am I looking at it objectively? Am I really looking at it, or am I seeing something? And to hear my son say, "Oh my gosh, Dad, he nailed it."

Joe Rogan 1:37 Right. No, he-

Mark Kerr 1:38 Unbelievable.

Joe Rogan 1:39 He really did nail it. I, like we were saying in the lobby, like, I didn't know The Rock could act that well.

Mark Kerr 1:45 You know-

Joe Rogan 1:45 But it's really good acting. It's not like blockbuster movie acting, which is, he's great at that, but-

Mark Kerr 1:51 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:51 ... it's, it's a different thing.

Mark Kerr 1:52 It, it, it's compl- it, so with DJ, I kept trying to say to him, "You don't have to do this, dude. Like, you don't have to do this." And he would, he would stop me and he would go, "Yeah, I do. I do."

Joe Rogan 2:05 What do you mean by you don't have to do this? You don't have to, like-

Mark Kerr 2:06 So meaning that, like, he's at a, he's at-

Joe Rogan 2:08 ... totally beat me?

Mark Kerr 2:09 He's at a place in his life where he can just keep doing blockbusters and be perfectly fine with it.

Joe Rogan 2:14 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 2:14 There's, there is, uh, uh, I mean, he says it himself, there's always a place for that. There's always gonna be a place for blockbuster movies, and, and for that. But he needed to do something different.

Joe Rogan 2:24 Hmm.

Mark Kerr 2:25 He needed to do something different.

Joe Rogan 2:27 Well, it's the perfect role if you wanna do something different, for him, because it's a very complex role, and it's about a giant dude.

Mark Kerr 2:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:36 That's, uh, and that's him.

Mark Kerr 2:38 Yeah, yeah.

Narrator 2:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:38 So it's, like, really, like, the perfect way, 'cause otherwise, if you're built like he is, it's very hard to get work as a serious actor. This might be like the only opportunity to show people, like, "Hey, I can actually act."

Mark Kerr 2:52 Yeah, yeah. I think it's-

Joe Rogan 2:53 I, I think he did it with flying colors.

Mark Kerr 2:55 He did, he did an amazing job. I mean, to the-

Joe Rogan 2:57 Amazing.

Mark Kerr 2:58 ... th- to the point where, like, Emily, unbelievable.

Joe Rogan 3:02 She's great.

Mark Kerr 3:03 Oh.

Joe Rogan 3:03 She plays such a crazy bitch. (laughs)

Mark Kerr 3:04 Oh my God, man. (laughs)

Narrator 3:07 (laughs)

Mark Kerr 3:07 She's so good at it.

Joe Rogan 3:08 Oh my God.

Mark Kerr 3:09 She's so good at playing crazy.

Joe Rogan 3:10 Oh my God.

Mark Kerr 3:11 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 3:11 It gave me anxiety. Like, some of the, sometimes, like-

Mark Kerr 3:14 So- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:14 ... when you're getting ready to fight and she's starting arguments, I'm like, "Oh my God."

Mark Kerr 3:18 God. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:18 "I'm getting anxiety."

Mark Kerr 3:21 So here's... So here's what was even... So it ve- so I saw a, uh, an 80% complete version of the film in, in January of this year, and then, um, and then the first time I see a complete version of it was in Venice. And so I'm in Venice, and there's Benny on my right, and there's DJ on my left, and there's Emily next to, uh, DJ. In the last scene of the movie, right? That intensity of that scene, I- I'm just telling you, it was like, uh, I, I said it was therapy for me.

Joe Rogan 3:56 Mm.

Mark Kerr 3:56 'Cause I think for the first time, I could actually, I could actually see my f- part in it. Like, I could see my part how fucking hard I was on the people around me. You know, how just singularly driven I was to accomplish something at, at all cost. And the person that paid it the most was Dawn. She paid a heavy price, you know? And you know anybody that's successful, you know, for me, I was trying to raise everybody up, you know, everybody around me. And it was just this selfish endeavor, and I could see it in those moments. I could see it in what, who DJ was, uh, you know, and who Emily was, and the intensity of that is like, "Fuck."

Joe Rogan 4:37 Well, it's such a crazy task to try to be an elite MMA fighter at a time where th- there was no, no one even knew what it was.

Mark Kerr 4:46 No. Mm-mm.

Joe Rogan 4:47 I mean, you, when you, first, uh, when I met you in '97, there's a crazy photo of us together.

Mark Kerr 4:52 Yeah, I saw that. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:55 Dude, '97, that's like 30 years ago almost. Isn't that nuts?

Mark Kerr 4:58 It's g- so this is what's fucking crazy. So trying to describe what I did back then, like people, w- their jaws would hang open.

Joe Rogan 5:06 Right.

Mark Kerr 5:07 They would go, "You do what?"

Joe Rogan 5:08 Like, why would you do that? That's awesome.

Mark Kerr 5:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:11 Look at that. (laughs)

Mark Kerr 5:12 Oh my God. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:12 1997, dude. That's so crazy.

Mark Kerr 5:15 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 5:17 So crazy.

Mark Kerr 5:18 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 5:19 So much time ago.

Mark Kerr 5:19 Were they even paying you back then?

Joe Rogan 5:21 A little bit. They paid me a little bit.

Mark Kerr 5:23 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 5:23 Uh, it wasn't a lot of money, but it was, for me, it was just for fun. It was like, uh, I was a f- giant fan of the sport, and what happened was, Campbell McLaren, do you remember Campbell?

Mark Kerr 5:32 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:32 Um-

Mark Kerr 5:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:33 ... he, he was good friends with my manager, Jeff, and, uh, they were just talking, and he said, "Uh, we need a guy to do backstage interviews, uh, post-fight interviews."

Mark Kerr 5:43 Yes.

Joe Rogan 5:43 And he goes, "Joe really loves this sport." He's like, "Really?" He goes like, "Oh yeah, he follows all the fights in Japan."

Mark Kerr 5:49 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 5:49 "And he's like..." And so for me, it was just fun. I mean, it wa- it wasn't, it was actually costing me money, which is why I wound up quitting.

Mark Kerr 5:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:57 Because I quit, and I did it for like a year and a half, two years maybe.And then in '98, I was like, "I can't do this anymore. I'm just ... It's just actually costing me money." And so then, when I, um, started doing Fear Factor, that's when Zuffa bought it-

Mark Kerr 6:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:09 ... and I wound up working-

Mark Kerr 6:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:10 ... for them again. But in those days, it was, it was ... For me, it was a dream, because as a lifelong martial artist, when I was a kid, there was always the big question: What was the best style?

Mark Kerr 6:21 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:22 And no one knew-

Mark Kerr 6:23 Nope.

Joe Rogan 6:23 ... until Rorion Gracie put it all together and decided to create the UFC.

Mark Kerr 6:27 Yep.

Joe Rogan 6:28 And then all of a sudden, we get to see it, and then obviously, you had Japan Vale Tudo and then PRIDE-

Mark Kerr 6:33 Yep.

Joe Rogan 6:33 ... and all these big events over in Japan, and, and it, it became ... To me, it was like, "Finally, someone did it."

Mark Kerr 6:40 That was ... So part of my first fights in Brazil, I was still, uh, brainwashed by the idea that, "Oh, shit, he's seven foot tall or 6'9", he's the toughest dude in the room."

Joe Rogan 6:51 Right.

Mark Kerr 6:52 'Cause y- 'cause y- I- 'cause that's how I grew up, right?

Joe Rogan 6:54 Right.

Mark Kerr 6:54 Or ten-degree black belt, same thing.

Joe Rogan 6:56 Right, right, right.

Mark Kerr 6:56 "Oh, no, no, (laughs) no. Don't mess with him."

Joe Rogan 6:58 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 6:59 And in one where, where that first time I fought, I was still under the delusion that that was the truth.

Joe Rogan 7:06 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 7:07 And so my trainer kept going, "Oh, trust me, you're gonna, you're gonna do fine. Trust me, you're gonna do fine." (laughs) And it's just like, he understood what, what, what I was as a wrestler-

Joe Rogan 7:18 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 7:18 ... you know, that I can impose ... Like, this is to tell you, the def- best definition I've ever had for a wrestler is, I can hold a grown-ass man where he doesn't wanna be held for as long as I wanna hold him there, and he can't do a fucking thing about it.

Joe Rogan 7:30 Exactly.

Mark Kerr 7:30 That's a wrestler.

Joe Rogan 7:31 And you can dictate where the fight-

Mark Kerr 7:33 Yep.

Joe Rogan 7:33 ... takes place, always. So if you become a wrestler like Chuck Liddell-

Mark Kerr 7:36 Yep.

Joe Rogan 7:36 ... then you say, "No, no, no, you can't take me down."

Mark Kerr 7:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:39 "So I'm just gonna beat the fuck outta you-

Mark Kerr 7:41 Yep.

Joe Rogan 7:41 ... standing, and there's nothing you can do about it."

Mark Kerr 7:43 Not, not a single thing.

Joe Rogan 7:44 Yeah. It's the most important skill.

Mark Kerr 7:46 Oh my God, it's foundational-

Joe Rogan 7:47 Foundational.

Mark Kerr 7:48 ... and, and that's why there's so much suc- success for, for the d- um ... I g- I'm gonna blank on the names, but, uh, the, the wrestlers are ... It's a resurgence of, like, really what a foundational piece it is-

Joe Rogan 8:04 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 8:04 ... and how important it is when you have a high, high ... You know what they're able to do too, as a wrestler? I always used to look at the Russian wrestlers and go, "What makes them so good?" They could flurry in succession more times than I could.

Joe Rogan 8:19 Mm.

Mark Kerr 8:19 Like Kurt Angle, right?

Joe Rogan 8:20 Right.

Mark Kerr 8:20 When I wrestled against Kurt. Kurt trained at a level that I wasn't training at.

Joe Rogan 8:25 Mm.

Mark Kerr 8:25 He could sustain a flurry to the point where I would just make mistakes-

Joe Rogan 8:30 Right.

Mark Kerr 8:30 ... 'cause I would be to exhaustion, and you'd watch-

Joe Rogan 8:32 Right.

Mark Kerr 8:33 ... him. These s- they'll string these moves together and string 'em together.

Joe Rogan 8:36 Oh, Khamzat Chimaev's a great example of that.

Mark Kerr 8:37 Yeah. Oh my God, unbelievable.

Joe Rogan 8:39 He's the best example of that.

Mark Kerr 8:39 Unbelievable, 'cause you'll-

Joe Rogan 8:41 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 8:41 ... see, you'll see him shoot-

Joe Rogan 8:42 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 8:42 ... re-shoot-

Joe Rogan 8:43 Yep.

Mark Kerr 8:43 ... shoot again-

Joe Rogan 8:44 Yep.

Mark Kerr 8:44 ... get up, stand up, fake, shoot again-

Joe Rogan 8:47 Yep.

Mark Kerr 8:47 ... and you can't keep up with it.

Joe Rogan 8:49 Yup.

Mark Kerr 8:49 You just ... And inevitably, you just make mistakes or you just give in to the exhaustion of the moment, right?

Joe Rogan 8:54 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 8:55 And it's just like, "Okay," nothing you can do about it.

Joe Rogan 8:58 When a guy has an insa- insane cardio with those kinda skills, it is the toughest combination to beat. Like Cain Velasquez in his prime, you know?

Mark Kerr 9:06 Oh my God, and-

Joe Rogan 9:07 Insane cardio-

Mark Kerr 9:08 Yep.

Joe Rogan 9:08 ... elite wrestling-

Mark Kerr 9:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:10 ... and then elite MMA standup skills as well. Like, get everything.

Mark Kerr 9:13 Scary. Scary.

Joe Rogan 9:14 The cardio's the scariest thing, 'cause when you're scared to hit the gas, like, "I got three more minutes in the round."

Mark Kerr 9:20 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:20 And you see Cain is just fucking bobbing-

Mark Kerr 9:22 Bobbing around, man.

Joe Rogan 9:23 ... and like, he's not even breathing heavy. In between rounds, his stomach's not even heaving.

Mark Kerr 9:26 And he's a big d- he's a big dude.

Joe Rogan 9:27 He's 240 and he's not even tired.

Mark Kerr 9:29 He's a big dude, yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:29 It doesn't make any sense.

Mark Kerr 9:30 Yeah, it defies logic, yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:31 But there's guys like that that have that fucking insane cardio, you know? I mean, I don't know how much you follow in the UFC, but there's this kid, Anthony Hernandez, in the middleweight division that's nuts. And then you got Merab, Merab Dvalishvili, who's, like, the best example of it. Unstoppable.

Mark Kerr 9:47 D- so this is kinda, again, one of these things where, where there are certain athletes that have a gear-

Joe Rogan 9:53 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 9:54 ... that nobody else has.

Joe Rogan 9:55 Yeah. Yeah. Well, the-

Mark Kerr 9:57 And it's just how they're built.

Joe Rogan 9:58 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 9:58 It's just how they're built.

Joe Rogan 9:59 Well, I remember when you came along and when Coleman came along. All of a sudden, everybody's like, "I gotta get on steroids." (laughs)

Mark Kerr 10:05 Yeah. Oh my God, yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:06 But it's like, "I gotta get bigger."

Mark Kerr 10:08 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:08 "I gotta get bigger."

Mark Kerr 10:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:09 That's when Vitor got up to, like, 240 pounds.

Mark Kerr 10:10 Oh my God, he was big. He was big.

Joe Rogan 10:12 He got way too big for his frame. I mean, you're talking about a guy who eventually wound up fighting at 185.

Mark Kerr 10:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:17 Right?

Mark Kerr 10:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:17 I mean, he finished his career up at 85, and he was there at 240 when he fought Randy the first time-

Mark Kerr 10:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:24 ... which was bananas.

Mark Kerr 10:25 So that night was my last UFC. That was UFC 15.

Joe Rogan 10:29 Oh, wow.

Mark Kerr 10:31 And that's when Randy beat Vitor.

Joe Rogan 10:33 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 10:34 And it was one of those where I'm like, "Oh, just wait." I kn- it's 'cause I know what Randy is.

Joe Rogan 10:39 Right.

Mark Kerr 10:39 Randy's cardio.

Joe Rogan 10:40 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 10:40 Randy-o's like, he can take it, and he ... It was one of those things where I was like, "I don't think Victor's gonna win."

Joe Rogan 10:47 Right.

Mark Kerr 10:47 It's just that-

Joe Rogan 10:47 And that's what we called him-

Mark Kerr 10:48 ... it's styles.

Joe Rogan 10:48 ... back then. His name was Victor.

Mark Kerr 10:49 Yeah, Victor.

Joe Rogan 10:50 When he first came into the UFC, w- with his first fight, wh- when he was fighting in Hawaii, he was Victor Gracie.

Mark Kerr 10:57 Oh, snap.

Joe Rogan 10:58 Yeah. Yeah, he was going by the, the last name Gracie, and then I think he got sued or threatened with a lawsuit-

Mark Kerr 11:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:04 ... and then he changed it to Victor Belfort-

Mark Kerr 11:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:06 ... because, like, Rorion was very litigious, you know?

Mark Kerr 11:09 Yeah, yeah. Oh my God, man.

Joe Rogan 11:09 He was, like, very protective of the Gracie name. And, um, so he fought Jon Hess in Hawaii and beat the living shit out of him, um-

Mark Kerr 11:17 The Rumble in the Rock stuff or whatever it was, yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:19 I don't think it was Rumble in the Rock. That, that was BJ's promotion, and that was later. This was, like, really early on. This was, uh, I don't know who the fuck was doing that event, but, uh, it was just in a ring, and Vitor came out and blitzed him with punches, and nobody had seen anything like that before. Like, "Oh God, this is a ..." 'Cause everybody thought Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belt-

Mark Kerr 11:38 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:39 ... you kn- you don't think you're gonna have a guy-

Mark Kerr 11:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:40 ... who has hands like that.

Mark Kerr 11:41 Oh my God, his hand speed was unreal.

Joe Rogan 11:43 He was so fast.

Mark Kerr 11:44 Unreal, and accurate.

Joe Rogan 11:45 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 11:46 Like, you can be fast, and that's one thing, but fast and actually hitting the target-

Joe Rogan 11:50 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 11:50 ... when the target's bobbing and weaving? It's like, oh my God, man. Scary.

Joe Rogan 11:53 He's an interesting case study, because he's a, like, first of all, pioneer, right?

Mark Kerr 11:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:59 First fought in the UFC when he was 19 years old, right?

Mark Kerr 12:01 Crazy.

Joe Rogan 12:02 And w- you know, went through, won the tournament at 19, which is just bananas. And then when we got to see him kind of ...... he got off the sauce, and l- his body kind of faded out, and then they brought back testosterone replacement.

Mark Kerr 12:17 Yeah, TRT, yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:17 And then when testosterone replacement-

Mark Kerr 12:19 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 12:19 ... came in, all the sudden-

Mark Kerr 12:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:21 ... it was TRT Vitor-

Mark Kerr 12:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:23 ... and he was the scariest-

Mark Kerr 12:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:24 ... motherfucker alive-

Mark Kerr 12:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:26 ... for like five fights or whatever it was-

Mark Kerr 12:29 Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:29 ... before they killed the TRT exemptions, and then it all went away for him.

Mark Kerr 12:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:33 It just, like, that should be a commercial for testosterone replacement.

Mark Kerr 12:36 Yeah, I mean, it really could be. Uh, you know, part, you know, back then, because there was so much myth surrounding mixed martial arts, that you felt like if you didn't do something, it was like the saying is, like, uh, oh, you're going to a gunfight with a knife.

Joe Rogan 12:51 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 12:51 Right? It was that type-

Joe Rogan 12:52 Right.

Mark Kerr 12:52 ... of mentality back then. And-

Joe Rogan 12:54 Well, it's also everyone was on it-

Mark Kerr 12:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:56 ... and there was no testing.

Mark Kerr 12:57 Yep, yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:58 And in fact, in Pride, when Enson was on the podcast, he told me that in large letters, it said, "We do not test for steroids-"

Mark Kerr 13:04 Yeah. Oh, my God, man.

Joe Rogan 13:05 "... in the contract." Like, they're like, "Ha ha."

Mark Kerr 13:07 Ha ha. So they would-

Joe Rogan 13:08 "Get out there, fellas."

Mark Kerr 13:08 So they would liter- he, they would do this. They would hand you a cup and go, "Urine." And you would go, "Uh, who's clean?"

Joe Rogan 13:16 (laughs)

Mark Kerr 13:17 You just look around and you just, you just hand the cup off going, "Uh, can you piss for? Here."

Joe Rogan 13:22 (laughs)

Mark Kerr 13:23 And y- and you literally would walk back to the medical and go, "Here's the pee."

Joe Rogan 13:27 Drug test.

Mark Kerr 13:27 "Yeah, here." And-

Joe Rogan 13:29 Hilarious.

Mark Kerr 13:29 I mean, th- that's the r- but that's the era it was.

Joe Rogan 13:33 So your first fight, was it, was it in Brazil?

Mark Kerr 13:36 In Brazil, yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:37 And, um, the crazy thing is, they reproduced that arena, that, that, w- conference room-

Mark Kerr 13:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:44 ... perfectly.

Mark Kerr 13:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:45 Like, 'cause I saw your first fight. I saw all those early fights, and then to see that in, like, the movie, I was like, "Oh, they did it."

Mark Kerr 13:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:52 "This is perfect."

Mark Kerr 13:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:54 'Cause, you know, sometimes they fudge a little, you know, they...

Mark Kerr 13:57 So, so here's what we're... So I was in Vancouver for the set, when they had the set up, and I, I was sitting there, I was laughing with Benny about it going, "All right, who came up with the pyramid in the door opening with fog machines?" (laughs) I go-

Joe Rogan 14:12 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 14:12 ...'cause it's, like, like, I can't even imagine the brainstorm going, "You got any bright ideas on how to introduce the... Yeah, let's do a pyramid and let's have a trap door fog." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:22 (laughs)

Mark Kerr 14:23 You know, it's like what the fuck? Where... Like, where, where in the bigger picture is stuff a-going? But they reproduced it to-

Joe Rogan 14:29 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 14:29 ... to the T. It was-

Joe Rogan 14:30 It was perfect.

Mark Kerr 14:30 Oh, my God, it was amazing.

Joe Rogan 14:32 It was really great because in, in the movie they did about Mark Schultz, what was that movie again? Um...

Mark Kerr 14:37 Mm-mm.

Joe Rogan 14:39 T- uh, fucking...

Narrator 14:42 Foxcatcher.

Joe Rogan 14:42 Foxcatcher.

Mark Kerr 14:42 Foxcatcher.

Joe Rogan 14:43 That's right.

Mark Kerr 14:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:43 That, that movie had a lot of shenanigans in it.

Mark Kerr 14:46 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 14:46 There was a lot of stuff that wasn't real.

Mark Kerr 14:47 Wasn't accurate to it.

Joe Rogan 14:48 Wasn't accurate.

Mark Kerr 14:49 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:49 Like, he fought Big Daddy Goodrich in his one MMA fight.

Mark Kerr 14:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:53 But in the movie, he's fighting some Russian dude. Didn't make any sense.

Mark Kerr 14:57 Oh, that is... No.

Joe Rogan 14:57 Completely different cat. Fought a white guy in the movie.

Mark Kerr 15:00 Wow.

Joe Rogan 15:01 Yeah. He fought... Big Daddy Goodrich, and Big Daddy was wearing the gi. Like...

Mark Kerr 15:04 Wow.

Joe Rogan 15:05 Yeah. Remember? I mean, not only that-

Mark Kerr 15:07 Yeah. Oh, my God, yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:07 ... but it was a-

Mark Kerr 15:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:08 Big Daddy Goodrich is a legend.

Mark Kerr 15:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:10 And like, how do you leave him out when that was his f- only MMA fight?

Mark Kerr 15:15 Fight.

Joe Rogan 15:15 Like, why did you change the guy he fought? That doesn't even make any sense.

Mark Kerr 15:19 No.

Joe Rogan 15:19 But they just did Hollywood shenanigans.

Mark Kerr 15:21 Yo, uh, i- so, you know, that was a huge part from the beginning of this when, when DJ and I, DJ and I talked back in 2019, is just the, like, the trust factor.

Joe Rogan 15:33 You guys started talking about this in 2019?

Mark Kerr 15:35 Yeah, in 2019, yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:35 Wow.

Mark Kerr 15:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:36 Six fucking years.

Mark Kerr 15:37 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:38 Wow.

Mark Kerr 15:39 Here's what's crazy. So, so he says, "Hey, you know, we're gonna move forward with this." And, and m- I, so for me, I hadn't even thought about any of this. Like, it being a movie, it, he wants to play me in a movie, and he goes, "I'm gonna make the announcement, Madison Square Garden at the BMF Belt." He goes, this, we had this beautiful conversation, and it was just like this, "Do you trust me?" And it was like, "Yeah. Yeah, I do."

Joe Rogan 16:09 He's a fucking great dude.

Mark Kerr 16:10 Oh, my God, solid, he's... By the way, he says, "Say hi." He left me a great message on the way over here. (laughs) I was listening to him, man. He's just, he's, he's a rare human being.

Joe Rogan 16:19 He is. I'm gonna, I'm gonna call him after this just to tell him what a fucking amazing job he did, 'cause I, well, I wanted to watch it right before I saw you.

Mark Kerr 16:27 Okay.

Joe Rogan 16:27 So I watched it today, and I was like, "God damn, this is a good movie, man." And I just, I was just blown away by how well he captured the chaos of the Pride organization, all the, the weirdness of the contract negotiations, everything.

Mark Kerr 16:43 Off, uh, so, so Benny from the beginning said, "The only way we're gonna be able to do this is have that authenticity," to the point where I sent them watches, rings, necklaces, posters, everything I could find picture-wise, everything, to their props and production.

Joe Rogan 17:05 Oh, wow.

Mark Kerr 17:05 And they reproduced everything.

Joe Rogan 17:08 Oh, wow.

Mark Kerr 17:10 So, Joe, and when I'm, w- I mean, like, when I went up to Vancouver, like, and walked into some of these sets, like, literally going, "Holy fucking shit, man."

Joe Rogan 17:21 (laughs) Did it flash back?

Mark Kerr 17:22 Oh, my God, like, like, you'd walk into a room and there'd, there'd be from one corner all the way to the other on the wall just pictures of me in my house, in my this, and this outfit, and this, and these in my house, and this, and, and then production saying, "Okay, was this accurate? How did this..." It was this, it was this unbelievable, painstaking... They rebuilt my life 25 years ago.

Joe Rogan 17:46 Wow.

Mark Kerr 17:46 So when DJ got into charac- got into me, he actually was, that was... He was me.

Joe Rogan 17:52 Wow.

Mark Kerr 17:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:54 It seemed like it, man. I mean, it really did because, you know, it's just, it- it's hard when a guy's so famous to pretend that he's someone else.

Mark Kerr 18:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:05 He has to-

Mark Kerr 18:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:05 ... like, be really good to get you convinced, and I was all in. I was all in.

Mark Kerr 18:10 Yeah. So first time I saw him in, uh-... in, in Vancouver. Like, nobody told me. Nobody said, "Hey, listen, we're gonna do prosthetics. We're gonna give him your cauliflower ear. We're gonna make his brow and da, da." Nobody told me this. So I was up there for fight week and, uh, they're getting ready to shoot, uh, the scene where they're introducing everybody to, the finalists for the Grand Prix. And so DJ's the last one to walk in and I'm watching the ring. I don't know he's behind me. And I turn around and it's like this... Like, I see him as me. Like-

Joe Rogan 18:42 (laughs)

Mark Kerr 18:43 ... this is what... Joe, this is what I did. I'm like, "Fuck you."

Joe Rogan 18:46 (laughs)

Mark Kerr 18:47 Like, "Fuck you."

Joe Rogan 18:49 (laughs)

Mark Kerr 18:49 Like, oh my God, and it's this moment where I'm looking at him and I'm, I'm looking at my, like, myself.

Joe Rogan 18:56 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 18:57 I can still see him in there, but I'm, like, looking at a, like, a mirror picture myself. And it's this experience where I'm like, "Oh my God, man." Like, wow, like, you, like, you're going. Like, this is you going to a place that nobody even thought you could get to.

Joe Rogan 19:17 Right.

Mark Kerr 19:19 Like, it was, it was incredible.

Joe Rogan 19:21 Well, you're, you're such an important part of the history of MMA that I think this movie did that... It, it really honored that. It really did it justice because at the, the end of the movie when it talks about how fighters today-

Mark Kerr 19:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:35 ... make millions of dollars-

Mark Kerr 19:36 Oh my God. I'll cry. I, I... This is... Go on, I'm sorry. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:39 No, it's okay. It's like, but that, you guys paved the way. If it wasn't for you guys just doing it for very little money, like barely getting by-

Mark Kerr 19:46 Oh, man.

Joe Rogan 19:47 Putting your whole life on the line-

Mark Kerr 19:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:49 ... and barely getting by. Oh, and I love that you had Aleksandr Usyk-

Mark Kerr 19:53 Oh my God, is he awesome.

Joe Rogan 19:53 ... play Irabov Chachin. This episode is brought to you by Happy Dad Hard Seltzer. Happy Dad's Hard Drinks are a low carbonation, gluten-free, and easy to drink. No bloating, no nonsense. Football games, golfing, watching fights, or out on the lake, these moments are made for Happy Dad. Everyone is drinking all these skinny cans loaded with sugar, but Happy Dad only has one gram of sugar in a normal can. Can't decide on a flavor? Grab a variety pack. Lemon lime, watermelon, pineapple, and wild cherry. They also have a grape flavor in collaboration with Death Row Records. Happy Dad is now available nationwide in the USA and Canada. Go to your local liquor store or visit happydad.com and for a limited time, use the code ROGAN to buy one Happy Dad trucker hat and get one free. Enjoy a cold Happy Dad. Must be 21 plus. Please drink responsibly. Happy Dad Hard Seltzer, NT malt alcohol, Orange County, California. That was amazing.

Mark Kerr 20:59 That was... So Benny signed him before he beat, before he became the undisputed champ.

Joe Rogan 21:04 Oh, wow. Right, 2019. Yeah.

Mark Kerr 21:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:08 Wow.

Mark Kerr 21:08 So, so it's one of those things where, um, everything just kinda lined up in a way where you're like, "All right, this is..." Like, this is manifest destiny, right?

Joe Rogan 21:19 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 21:19 This is like, this is like Joe Dispenza, you know? Like-

Joe Rogan 21:22 Right, right, right, right.

Mark Kerr 21:22 Like, like really, like, you're like, you're really tapping into something that's bigger 'cause it's pulled all these people together.

Joe Rogan 21:29 Usyk did a great job too.

Mark Kerr 21:30 Oh, he did a phenomenal job.

Joe Rogan 21:31 He, he moved the light bulb chand- chand-

Mark Kerr 21:32 Oh, my God, he did that spinning back kick-

Joe Rogan 21:34 Yes.

Mark Kerr 21:34 ... like, what is it? I'm like, he's a boxer. He's not supposed to... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:37 Yeah, I mean, I didn't even know he could do that.

Mark Kerr 21:39 No, neither did I. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:41 That's kinda crazy.

Mark Kerr 21:41 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:42 Well, I mean, I guess that guy could kinda do anything. He's such a great athlete.

Mark Kerr 21:44 Yeah. Oh, my God, he's, he's... You know how many rounds he trained prior to, to, uh, fighting Tyson Fury?

Joe Rogan 21:51 No.

Mark Kerr 21:52 600-

Joe Rogan 21:54 Jesus.

Mark Kerr 21:54 ... with three different training partners. So every dude came in, every third round, he had a fresh guy on him.

Joe Rogan 22:02 I know that he was doing 15 rounds a day and he made a deal with himself that his back touched the ropes, he would have to do another round.

Mark Kerr 22:08 So-

Joe Rogan 22:08 An extra round.

Mark Kerr 22:09 So he... That's one that I didn't hear that, but he, he said he would do rounds where he wasn't allowed to punch.

Joe Rogan 22:16 Oh, wow.

Mark Kerr 22:18 At all.

Joe Rogan 22:18 He just had to do defense.

Mark Kerr 22:19 Like, he just had to b- bob and weave in defense. I'm like, "Okay." Like, like, he, he takes... He's like one of us. Like, he just takes it to a level that is just unbelievable.

Joe Rogan 22:30 He's a genius.

Mark Kerr 22:31 Oh.

Joe Rogan 22:31 Like a literal boxing genius. Again, I don't use that term lightly. Like, what he did to Dubois, I was like, "Oh my God." 'Cause when you see Dubois, when Dubois knocked out, um, Anthony Joshua, you're like, "Wow, this kid might be the future."

Mark Kerr 22:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:44 He is a fucking destroyer.

Mark Kerr 22:45 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:46 He's a seek and destroy, brutal power, giant guy, and incredible athlete. And Usyk just pieced him up.

Mark Kerr 22:53 Dismantled him.

Joe Rogan 22:53 Just took him down, dismantled him and took him apart and did it with all skill.

Mark Kerr 22:58 Unbe-... Like, literally, like, understanding. He's not the biggest dude in the world.

Joe Rogan 23:02 No?

Mark Kerr 23:03 He's big, but he's not, like, 6'9", right?

Joe Rogan 23:05 No, he's not Tyson Fury size.

Mark Kerr 23:06 No, he's, no-

Joe Rogan 23:07 He's not Dubois size either.

Mark Kerr 23:08 He's not Dubois, he's not-

Joe Rogan 23:09 Not Tyso- Anthony Joshua.

Mark Kerr 23:10 ... he's... It's Joshua, none of them.

Joe Rogan 23:11 No.

Mark Kerr 23:12 No.

Joe Rogan 23:12 No. No, he's a cruiserweight.

Mark Kerr 23:13 Ugh.

Joe Rogan 23:14 He's a cruiserweight that beat everybody and knew that the only way to make real money is to go up to heavyweight.

Mark Kerr 23:18 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:18 And really have a, like, leave a real legacy. 'Cause he could've been one of those guys that retired as an undefeated cruiserweight and boxing fans like myself would talk about him, but-

Mark Kerr 23:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:27 ... everybody else would be like, "Who?"

Mark Kerr 23:28 "Who?" Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:30 Meanwhile now, he's in the conversation of one of the greatest.

Mark Kerr 23:32 Oh, for sure.

Joe Rogan 23:33 He's Tyson, Ali. He's like-

Mark Kerr 23:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:35 He's in there with that conversation.

Mark Kerr 23:37 Yep. And it- it's k- it... Just consistently an overachiever.

Joe Rogan 23:40 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 23:40 Consistently an overachiever.

Joe Rogan 23:42 And he's fucking 38.

Mark Kerr 23:43 Ugh, which is even, like-

Joe Rogan 23:45 Right? Even crazier-

Mark Kerr 23:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:46 ... 'cause it's like he hasn't shown any slipping in his skill level at all or his endurance or his enthusiasm-

Mark Kerr 23:51 None of it.

Joe Rogan 23:51 ... or his discipline.

Mark Kerr 23:52 None of it.

Joe Rogan 23:53 Just, well, also it's like he, uh, w- was so fortunate to have been trained by Lomachenko's dad.

Mark Kerr 24:00 I didn't know that.

Joe Rogan 24:00 Yeah, so he's like a giant Lomachenko.

Mark Kerr 24:03 Oh, my God, yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:03 Like, 'cause Lomachenko's so agile, so much footwork and movement, and-

Mark Kerr 24:08 That makes sense.

Joe Rogan 24:08 ... he's basically, like, the heavyweight version of it.

Mark Kerr 24:11 Wow.

Joe Rogan 24:12 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 24:13 That makes actually more sense.

Joe Rogan 24:14 Makes more sense, right?

Mark Kerr 24:15 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:15 Because-... this movement for such a big guy is just extraordinary. It just doesn't exist anywhere else, 'cause it's not just the light on the feet, it's the angles he takes after punches, and then the shifting-

Mark Kerr 24:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:26 ... of the weight back to center when you don't expect it-

Mark Kerr 24:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:29 ... and then, uh...

Mark Kerr 24:30 Uh, and that's like my son, actually it's my son's birthday today.

Joe Rogan 24:33 Happy birthday. What's his name?

Mark Kerr 24:35 Twent- Bryce.

Joe Rogan 24:35 Happy birthday, Bryce.

Mark Kerr 24:36 Yeah, (laughs) 21, right?

Joe Rogan 24:39 (imitates explosion)

Mark Kerr 24:39 I go, that's a birthday to wait for, but he's already doing all this stuff that you, you know... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:44 (laughs)

Mark Kerr 24:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:45 They all do.

Mark Kerr 24:46 So, yeah, I know, right? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:47 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 24:47 It's that, it's that age bracket. But, uh, so my son loves the science of boxing.

Joe Rogan 24:51 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 24:52 You know, even 10 years ago when he was, like, 11, 12 years old, he would be on YouTube watching the footwork-

Joe Rogan 24:58 Interesting.

Mark Kerr 24:58 ... of boxers. And I'm like, I, 'cause I didn't get into that science of it and footwork and all that until I started doing MMA. Like, understanding, like, I understood wrestling, but boxing on that level is just, it's a whole nother complex set of skills.

Joe Rogan 25:14 Well, you were so deep in wrestling though, it's almost impossible to pay attention to anything else.

Mark Kerr 25:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:19 At the level that you were competing at-

Mark Kerr 25:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:21 ... you have to, that has to be everything-

Mark Kerr 25:23 Singular.

Joe Rogan 25:23 ... you eat, breathe, sleep.

Mark Kerr 25:25 Yeah. Singular.

Joe Rogan 25:26 It's just like, yeah, it has-

Mark Kerr 25:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:26 ... to be singular.

Mark Kerr 25:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:27 It has to be. It's almost like you can't-

Mark Kerr 25:30 Well-

Joe Rogan 25:30 ... go down any rabbit holes.

Mark Kerr 25:31 No. And that's one of those where (sighs) you know, my mentor, the guy that, uh, that really brought me to another level is a guy named Chris Campbell. He was Dan Gable's first NCA champ when Dan Gable was a coach at Iowa. Um, he made the 1980 Olympic team that was boycotted, won the 1981 World Championships, voted best technician in the world, and then retires. And then decides he's gonna make the 19- 1992 Olympics in Barcelona. So, he's, at 37 years old, he wins a bronze medal that year in Barcelona. 37.

Joe Rogan 26:05 That's pretty impressive.

Mark Kerr 26:06 Really.

Joe Rogan 26:06 For amateur wrestling-

Mark Kerr 26:07 Oh my God, man.

Joe Rogan 26:07 ... people don't know, that's unheard of.

Mark Kerr 26:09 It's, I think still to this day, he's the oldest, uh, Olympic medalist.

Joe Rogan 26:13 Wow.

Mark Kerr 26:14 'Cause you just don't, you just, uh, uh, I mean, wrestling's just so demanding physically.

Joe Rogan 26:18 It's such a young sport, yeah.

Mark Kerr 26:19 Oh, yeah, it is. It is. So, he ends u- he ends up, he ends up just really taking me by the hand and, and, a-understanding like, singular devotion to something. It's, he would, back then, he did tape study, which wasn't a huge, huge deal, but literally watching the Russians wrestle and some of the tapes, his nemesis was th- this guy, Khudarcev, and you look and watch the tapes and you go, "Uh, I don't see anything." Once you slowed it down, you go, "You can't move him out of position. He doesn't, when he attacks and retreats, he's never out of position."

Joe Rogan 26:54 Hmm.

Mark Kerr 26:55 And, you know, you'd look at it and go, "Wow." 'Cause it was just these little things, little things that made a difference.

Joe Rogan 27:00 It's so amazing that the Russians achieved that level in not just wrestling, but also in MMA, also in v- any combat sports. Name it.

Mark Kerr 27:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:10 Boxing.

Mark Kerr 27:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:11 Russian kickboxers are super technical.

Mark Kerr 27:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:14 They're all l- known for being so technical. It's really interesting.

Mark Kerr 27:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:18 You know? Like-

Mark Kerr 27:19 And it's, and again, I would think that somewhere in there, there's a root, there's a common, like, there's coaches and mentors.

Joe Rogan 27:26 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 27:26 'Cause the, the only way I've learned how to wrestle or, or MMA is through mentorship.

Joe Rogan 27:30 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 27:31 You know, somebody really going, "Hey, let me, let me show you." And they had a mentor and they had a mentor. It's this lineage that's passed along, um, and I know I went from being a good wrestler to being a really good wrestler when Chris took me under his wing. You know, we'd drill the same thing thousands of times and it would be like, the difference between holding my hand here and holding it here. And I'd go, "It's two inches."

Joe Rogan 27:55 Right.

Mark Kerr 27:56 What's the diff- and he would go, "When you speed it up to full speed, those two inches become six." Right?

Joe Rogan 28:03 Hmm.

Mark Kerr 28:03 And so-

Joe Rogan 28:04 The leverage points.

Mark Kerr 28:05 Yeah. And so-

Joe Rogan 28:06 (sniffs) .

Mark Kerr 28:06 ... I need him to be here, perfect, because once you go full speed, you're gonna miss it, but you're only gonna miss it by this much.

Joe Rogan 28:13 You know, it's interesting that Georges St-Pierre, although he never wrestled in high school or college, his training in Montreal was with Russian wrestlers. It was all Russian nationals who had moved to Canada.

Mark Kerr 28:24 I didn't know that.

Joe Rogan 28:24 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 28:25 Wow.

Joe Rogan 28:25 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 28:26 GSP, I was just talking to a friend of mine and, uh, I said, he's probably, in my book, one or two.

Joe Rogan 28:33 Yeah, of all time.

Mark Kerr 28:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:35 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 28:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:35 He's, he's certainly in the conversa- it's so hard to say who because, you know, Mighty Mouse, I think, never got the credit that he deserved-

Mark Kerr 28:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:41 ... 'cause he was a 125er, and then people forget how good Anderson was when he was in his prime.

Mark Kerr 28:46 Oh my God, yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:46 People... And, and BJ Penn, BJ Penn when he was in his prime. I feel like you really have to look at a guy when he's redlining, like, when he's really at the peak of his abilities.

Mark Kerr 28:56 Peak of what he is, yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:57 You can't judge him by the fights that he fight after their prime.

Mark Kerr 29:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:00 You can't 'cause it's not fair. You just gotta say, like, who, when they were champion, when they were running shit-

Mark Kerr 29:07 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:07 ... who exhibited a level of MMA that's above and beyond everyone else? And Georges is certainly in that conversation.

Mark Kerr 29:15 Oh, he's for sure. I mean, part of, um, part of what I've, like Jon Jones, right?

Joe Rogan 29:21 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 29:22 Like, like, when you get somebody that, at that level, at his peak, right? And he can make other professional fighters look like they're amateurs.

Joe Rogan 29:32 They look silly.

Mark Kerr 29:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:33 They look like they don't belong in there.

Mark Kerr 29:34 (laughs) Like-

Joe Rogan 29:34 And he was doing that to guys when he wasn't training. That was what was crazy.

Mark Kerr 29:37 Yeah, which is insane. Crazy.

Joe Rogan 29:38 He was fucking off and barely in the gym and still dominating in world title fights.

Mark Kerr 29:43 (sighs) Sometimes I get a little upset 'cause I'm like, you know how many fights he probably wi- as a spectator, as a fan.

Joe Rogan 29:50 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 29:50 Like, how many fights we missed because of...

Joe Rogan 29:52 His shenanigans.

Mark Kerr 29:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:53 Yeah. Just like... (growls)

Mark Kerr 29:55 Just like, "Damn."

Joe Rogan 29:55 But it's also, I mean, you know, what happened with you and what happened with him and what happens with a lot of guys is like, the pressure of life sometimes, and what makes you a great fighter in the first place, there's a certain wildness.

Mark Kerr 30:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:10 And with a guy-

Mark Kerr 30:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:10 ... like Jon, that wildness, it's like it's hard to keep on a leash.

Mark Kerr 30:14 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know how that feels.

Joe Rogan 30:17 Yeah, I'm sure you do. (laughs)

Mark Kerr 30:18 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:19 Well, I remember, I had no idea, and I don't think anybody had any idea until The Smashing Machine documentary came out.

Mark Kerr 30:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:26 And when that documentary came out, everybody was like, "Holy shit."

Mark Kerr 30:30 "Holy shit."

Joe Rogan 30:30 First of all-... kudos to you for allowing people to see you-

Mark Kerr 30:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:36 ... like that.

Mark Kerr 30:36 Thank you.

Joe Rogan 30:37 Raw, completely honest about all of the addiction problems, all, everything. And n- no one would have expected it. When they saw you, they just saw this fucking d- dominant destroyer. This guy was, like, smashing everybody, and you just thought, "Oh, well that guy is just a, he's just a machine, and s- just so mentally strong, and he just gets out there and gets it done." And then you allowed them to show you, where in the, the making of the documentary, it was, what they were essentially trying to capture was you at your prime.

Mark Kerr 31:09 Prime, yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:10 And what they caught you, was you where your life was falling apart, just fortuitously.

Mark Kerr 31:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:15 It was just-

Mark Kerr 31:16 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 31:16 ... kind of random luck they caught you at that time.

Mark Kerr 31:19 So, (sighs) so when, uh, John Greenhall, who's a producer, uh, I went to Syracuse with him. I was, we were on the wrestling team together. He's the one that called me. He said, "Hey," um, "I wanna do a documentary." At that point, my vision of what it was, was, uh, little Best Buy camera, where the, like, little flip screen and they show up and they go, "Okay, we're filming a documentary."

Joe Rogan 31:43 Right. (laughs)

Mark Kerr 31:43 "Hang on, I gotta change tape," you know? And they show up in Japan for my Woltanshin fight with two 10,000, 15,000, whatever they were, digital Sony cameras, a boom mic, and, like, five people. I'm like, "Oh, fuck. You're, you're, like, you're really gonna make a, like, you're gonna make a documentary." And so he was f- right from the get-go, John could see, John could see what was the contrast, like, me as a fighter and me as a person. That contrast.

Joe Rogan 32:16 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 32:17 Um, and so that's what he was after, is, is, like, to s- to really show this contrast and, like, you can do this for a living and be this kind, sensitive, you know, person on the other side of that.

Joe Rogan 32:25 But that was what was weird about you. It was a very weird contrast-

Mark Kerr 32:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:28 ... 'cause you're very soft-spoken, very kind, always very considerate to people, very nice. And then you'd get-

Mark Kerr 32:33 Oh. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:34 ... into the cage, and it's like, "Who the fuck is that guy?" (laughs)

Mark Kerr 32:37 (laughs) You know, you know what the feeling is? The feeling is, like, it, the question I always had in my head is going, "Okay, if somebody's gonna go you, me in a room, who the fuck's coming out?" And I never was able to answer that question for myself. I know I was competitive, right? But I didn't know if I had that switch, that thing, and then start fighting and going, "Oh fuck, man. There, there's a switch in there." And I figured through that process what I was really trying to get is your will.

Joe Rogan 33:06 Mm.

Mark Kerr 33:06 I was trying to take your fucking will.

Joe Rogan 33:08 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 33:08 And most people don't wanna give it.

Joe Rogan 33:11 Right.

Mark Kerr 33:11 Like, when you get a high level fighter, it's like Fabio Gagil didn't wanna give me his will. Headbutted him, dug into cuts, did all this, beat him mercilessly, and he didn't wanna give me his will. He wouldn't give it to me.

Joe Rogan 33:23 Hmm.

Mark Kerr 33:23 And it frustrated me. I didn't know how to take it from him. I'm going, "I'm outta answers."

Joe Rogan 33:28 You're waiting for him to break-

Mark Kerr 33:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:29 ... but he doesn't break.

Mark Kerr 33:29 He doesn't break.

Joe Rogan 33:31 Yeah. Yeah, some people don't break. You can break their body, but their will, you can't break.

Mark Kerr 33:35 No, he was one of 'em. He was one of 'em, and it's just still to this day. I mean, the next day, his wife calls me and I have lunch at his house.

Joe Rogan 33:42 Wow.

Mark Kerr 33:43 Which is crazy because my first fights, don't know, e- everybody in the audience was there for him. And, uh, when his wife calls me the next day, I'd, I'd literally go, "Oh fuck, man. Here it is. He's gonna have all his boys up at the house."

Joe Rogan 33:57 (laughs)

Mark Kerr 33:58 "And he's gonna fucking, he's gonna fucking get his due." Right? Like (laughs) 'cause I didn't know.

Joe Rogan 34:03 Right.

Mark Kerr 34:04 And so I go, "Okay, what do I got to lose?" And so I go up and we sit down just like we're sitting here, and his wife interprets the whole entire time, and it was this... It was actually beautiful. It was beautiful because-

Joe Rogan 34:16 That's awesome.

Mark Kerr 34:17 ... here's, here's what it set for me. It set a standard of how I was gonna carry myself as a fighter.

Joe Rogan 34:24 Mm.

Mark Kerr 34:25 What happened in the ring is in the ring.

Joe Rogan 34:28 Right.

Mark Kerr 34:29 The second you're out, e- you're, you can, that's different.

Joe Rogan 34:33 Well, that speaks to his character, why you couldn't break his will in the first place.

Mark Kerr 34:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:36 Right?

Mark Kerr 34:37 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 34:37 'Cause he's such just locked down. Yeah.

Mark Kerr 34:40 Absolutely. It was, uh, for me, it was, it was one of those, like, uh, revelations of, like, "Okay, this is, this is how you do this."

Joe Rogan 34:49 As a professional.

Mark Kerr 34:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:50 Well, you know, also, like, Brazil had a much longer history of-

Mark Kerr 34:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:53 ... these kind of fights. Like, going way back toHelio Gracie days, and you know-

Mark Kerr 34:58 Yeah.

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Mark Kerr 36:25 I mean, it, it-

Joe Rogan 36:26 For Carlos Gracie, yeah.

Mark Kerr 36:26 ... culturally understanding way different, and that's, like, the, "Okay, I'm gonna carry myself." You know, part of it was, you know, I wanted to-... change the narrative of, like, when you looked at the early UFCs, it looked like some, some guys were just scraped off a bar stool.

Joe Rogan 36:45 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 36:45 And thrown into the octagon, right?

Joe Rogan 36:47 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 36:48 And so when I came there, I was like, "Okay. I wanna be considered professional," right? "I wanna carry myself as a professional. I'm gonna be articulate, I'm gonna dress as a professional, I'm gonna j-" 'Cause I wanted to up the ante. I wanted to, like, raise the standard, right?

Joe Rogan 37:03 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 37:03 And especially when I went to Japan. It's like, you know, press conference, everybody's in sweatsuits. I'm in a, you know, I couldn't afford it, but I was in a $1,000 Calvin Klein suit (laughs) that I then-

Joe Rogan 37:13 (laughs)

Mark Kerr 37:13 ... had put on a charge cart, right? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:16 (laughs)

Mark Kerr 37:16 But I wanted to change the narrative.

Joe Rogan 37:18 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 37:18 I wanted to be, I wanted to be a professional. 'Cause if I was a professional and treated like a professional, I could ask for pay like a professional.

Joe Rogan 37:25 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 37:26 Not like some dude that was just scraped off a bar stool and thrown into a ring.

Joe Rogan 37:29 So what was, what was the Pride experience like? So you, you had fought in the UFC, and then did, did you have a contract that expired? Like, what happened?

Mark Kerr 37:40 So, oh boy, this is the... So, I signed a three-fight tournament deal with the UFC. I did '14 and '15, and I still had one, uh, tournament obligation on the contract. Um, so after '15, the Japanese had seen enough footage, and I got contacted by Pride. And they're like, "Hey, we wanna fly you over. We want to, um, we wanna have, uh, you as a key piece to build this organization." So I'm like, "Okay." So they fly me first class over, first class hotel. I meet with, um, I meet with a guy named Mr. Ishizaka, who, uh, his real name is Kim Duk Soo. He's a Korean guy. And, uh, the, um, Mr. Ishii, who owned K-1...

Joe Rogan 38:28 Wait a minute. A Korean dude was pretending to be Japanese?

Mark Kerr 38:30 You had to have a Japanese name.

Joe Rogan 38:32 Whoa.

Mark Kerr 38:33 You couldn't do business in Japan without a Japanese name.

Joe Rogan 38:37 That's crazy. So he just changed his name?

Mark Kerr 38:39 He signed all of his documents, signed all of his documents, legal documents, Kim Duk Soo.

Joe Rogan 38:44 Wow.

Mark Kerr 38:44 But every single person called him Mr. Ishizaka.

Joe Rogan 38:47 Wow.

Mark Kerr 38:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:49 So he had to learn Japan- Japanese, he had to-

Mark Kerr 38:51 Yeah. And it's still with an accent 'cause he spoke Korean too.

Joe Rogan 38:55 Ah. (laughs)

Mark Kerr 38:56 So it's just one of those (Joe laughs) where understanding, like, the, the culture back then just-

Joe Rogan 39:00 Wow.

Mark Kerr 39:00 ... it was still stuck, you know, and hadn't really progressed.

Joe Rogan 39:05 Wow.

Mark Kerr 39:05 Um, so Mr. Ishii owned K-1, and Mr. Ishizaka started Pride. And it was called KRS at the beginning, before turning into Dream Stage.

Joe Rogan 39:14 Oh.

Mark Kerr 39:15 And so here's, here's where it gets a little sticky. So, um, I go over there. I take, uh... For Pride 2, it's supposed to be me and Royce Gracie. Him and I... Uh, there's still fight posters that I've signed of him and I facing off with each other, signed the contract to fight for way more money than was being probably paid for the, uh, in the UFC. And, um, when I get back to the States, I get served with, uh, I get served with papers to appear in court in New York City, the UFC suing me. Um, it's when Bob Meyerwitz still owned it-

Joe Rogan 39:48 Hmm.

Mark Kerr 39:48 ... and Art Davis was involved. And so they were suing me for breach of contract. And it was, like, one of those things where I was like, "Okay. I didn't..." You know, like, one of those experiences where I was like, "Oh, shit." You know, and the Japanese said, "Okay, we still want you. You need to sort this out." So it took, uh, it took four months, five months to sort out the differences between what the UFC needed and if they were gonna let me go and all this other stuff. In that timeframe, Royce got hurt. And so Royce had to step out, and they put, uh, Branko Cigic in there, and I ended up fighting Branko in Pride 2.

Joe Rogan 40:24 Oh, wow.

Mark Kerr 40:25 Yeah. So if everything, if, if everything would've went as everything, I would've fought Royce Gracie in the Tokyo Dome.

Joe Rogan 40:32 (exhales)

Mark Kerr 40:33 Him in a main event, me at-

Joe Rogan 40:35 Wow.

Mark Kerr 40:35 ... my peak, Royce still in his prime.

Joe Rogan 40:39 Wow. That would've been insane.

Mark Kerr 40:41 Oh my God. It would've been... Uh, like, thinking about it going... 'Cause people have asked like, "Who would've won?" I'm like, "I don't fucking know." But I would've given it every single thing I could.

Joe Rogan 40:52 Wow.

Mark Kerr 40:52 That's it. That's the (laughs) poster.

Joe Rogan 40:54 (laughs) Wow.

Mark Kerr 40:55 Yeah. Signed, inked, everything.

Joe Rogan 40:58 You had at least 80 pounds on him.

Mark Kerr 41:01 Oh, at least that.

Joe Rogan 41:02 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 41:02 But, but this is it. This is the transition from not knowing what I was getting into to going, "I can't fucking carry that much weight at all and be cardiovasculally... I just can't do it."

Joe Rogan 41:14 What were you at your heaviest?

Mark Kerr 41:17 280, 285.

Joe Rogan 41:19 Geez.

Mark Kerr 41:20 Like, 6% body fat.

Joe Rogan 41:21 Whoa.

Mark Kerr 41:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:23 That's hard to breathe. (laughs)

Mark Kerr 41:26 Oh, it's brutal. Like if I didn't-

Joe Rogan 41:27 Do you get so much muscle?

Mark Kerr 41:27 If I didn't fucking get ahold of you-

Joe Rogan 41:28 Right.

Mark Kerr 41:28 ... and fucking squeeze the life out of you in the first, like, couple minutes-

Joe Rogan 41:31 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 41:31 ... I was fucked. I was completely fucked, you know.

Joe Rogan 41:34 Yeah. Well, that was kinda the case with Coleman as well, like when-

Mark Kerr 41:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:37 ... when he was really, really big.

Mark Kerr 41:38 I was in the corner-

Joe Rogan 41:39 Battling the hell.

Mark Kerr 41:39 ... when he lost... When, I was cornering him when he lost to Maurice Smith.

Joe Rogan 41:43 Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I was there for that one.

Mark Kerr 41:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:46 That was, that was, uh, a real game-changer.

Mark Kerr 41:50 Oh, that changed the narrative for everything.

Joe Rogan 41:52 'Cause Maurice, what Maurice brought to the game was... Maurice was training with Frank Shamrock at the time.

Mark Kerr 41:57 Yep.

Joe Rogan 41:57 And so he had extreme cardio. He was doing a lot of swimming, he was running hills.

Mark Kerr 42:02 Yep.

Joe Rogan 42:02 I mean, he was really cardiovascularily at an elite level for an MMA-

Mark Kerr 42:07 Yep.

Joe Rogan 42:07 ... fighter at the time.

Mark Kerr 42:08 Frank and I used to talk about heart rate training.

Joe Rogan 42:11 Hmm.

Mark Kerr 42:12 Way back when.

Joe Rogan 42:13 Hmm.

Mark Kerr 42:13 Like, like, literally, like, functional training, and going, "Okay. How do, how do you, how do you approach something and come up with a formula where you can get through a training camp and still be viable at the end of that training camp when you have five-minute rounds?"

Joe Rogan 42:29 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 42:30 Right? How do you do it? There wasn't a formula for it.

Joe Rogan 42:33 Right.

Mark Kerr 42:33 So Frank was like, "I started doing this heart rate training and heart rate recovery and all this stuff." And I was like, "Oh, shit." And then I'd run into these trainers when I was in California. At Gold's Venice, um, there was this guy named TR Goodman, and he was training hockey players.... and hockey players have to have that burst, recovery, burst, recovery.

Joe Rogan 42:52 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 42:52 Wow, very similar cardiovascular system to fighters. So TR took over my training when I was in California, and that was a whole other level. 'Cause I- I'd never really had the functional training implemented the way he did.

Joe Rogan 43:07 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 43:07 And that's when my weight came down. It's like, I f- really tried to fight between like, 230 f- 235 and 240 was ideal.

Joe Rogan 43:16 Mm.

Mark Kerr 43:17 Um-

Joe Rogan 43:17 Yeah, that's much better. That seems like the ideal heavyweight.

Mark Kerr 43:21 It is. It is.

Joe Rogan 43:22 You know? Al- um, it's w- it's very weird that, first of all, that the heavyweight division has a weight limit.

Mark Kerr 43:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:26 That is weird.

Mark Kerr 43:26 Oh my God, it's really weird.

Joe Rogan 43:28 Especially the UFC.

Mark Kerr 43:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:29 'Cause it doesn't really in Japan and some other organizations. They'll allow the super heavyweight division. And in boxing, you can be-

Mark Kerr 43:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:34 ... as heavy as you want. Like, Tyson Fury's-

Mark Kerr 43:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:36 ... been 290 before.

Mark Kerr 43:37 God.

Joe Rogan 43:37 But when the UFC has this 265-pound weight division, it seems like the best elite guys like that 240 range.

Mark Kerr 43:46 That's, th- for me, that was like, I knew if I had a good training camp if I came in 235, 240. If I didn't train hard enough, I was 250. If I over-trained, I was under 230. You know? Like, for Pride Grand Prix, I think I weighed in at 229.

Joe Rogan 44:02 Hm.

Mark Kerr 44:03 Because right before that-

Joe Rogan 44:04 And you felt over-trained?

Mark Kerr 44:05 ... I felt over-trained because, p- in between, um, when I fought Edson in the Pride Grand Prix, I did Abu Dhabi.

Joe Rogan 44:11 Oh.

Mark Kerr 44:12 And so I won my weight class that year and I won the all-around.

Joe Rogan 44:16 So you got super conditioned for that.

Mark Kerr 44:18 Oh my God, super conditioned, but you, you lose... I lost a little bit of what I needed was that physical dominance.

Joe Rogan 44:27 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 44:28 You know? I could have the endurance, but again, it's one of those where it's like, going into it when I fought Fujita, there were so many factors that were just f- uh, you know, that I didn't account for. And my calorie intake just wasn't where it needed to be. And like a lot of times g- leading up to a fight, like, my appetite just diminishes as I get towards it.

Joe Rogan 44:46 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 44:46 Especially that fight week. And-

Joe Rogan 44:49 That's interesting. Why do you think that is?

Mark Kerr 44:51 Uh, nerves.

Joe Rogan 44:52 Hmm.

Mark Kerr 44:52 Nerves.

Joe Rogan 44:53 Right, makes sense.

Mark Kerr 44:53 It gets to a point where it's like that- that morning, I know like, fight morning, I have a small little window where I could digest food.

Joe Rogan 45:00 Oh, wow.

Mark Kerr 45:00 Where I could take food in. It's not like I could sit and eat all day.

Joe Rogan 45:04 And that's when the nerves start kicking in-

Mark Kerr 45:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:05 ... and you just start-

Mark Kerr 45:06 It just starts kicking in like my, like, like, literally. And it's controlled focus, right?

Joe Rogan 45:10 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 45:10 'Cause it's like, I can't have all my nerves running everywhere, but it's controlled focus. But that controlled focus, my body goes, "I don't need digestion. Fuck, I'm-"

Joe Rogan 45:18 Right.

Mark Kerr 45:18 "... about to fight. What the fuck do I need to digest food for?"

Joe Rogan 45:21 Right, right, right.

Mark Kerr 45:22 You know?

Joe Rogan 45:22 Yeah, a lot of guys have made those mista- Uh, Aljamain Sterling said he made that mistake when he first fought Petr Yan. He just, he didn't eat. Just couldn't eat.

Mark Kerr 45:29 It's brutal. So th- so that last scene against Fujita is an, is w- 100% hypoglycemic, crash-

Joe Rogan 45:37 Hmm.

Mark Kerr 45:37 ... laying there, can't move my body. And if you watch the documentary (laughs) , what I'm saying on the way back is, "I need sugar, I need sugar, I need sugar."

Joe Rogan 45:44 Hmm.

Mark Kerr 45:45 I, I, that's all I could think about was like, "I need sugar, I need sugar, I need sugar." 'Cause my blood sugar levels had just crashed to this like, "I can't fucking move."

Joe Rogan 45:53 Jeez. It's, uh, so crazy too, the watch the evolution of the training methods from back then, from '97, to like, what we're seeing today.

Mark Kerr 46:02 Yeah. Oh, incredible.

Joe Rogan 46:04 It i- it is really extraordinary because there's not a real- another sport that has gone through that much of a metamorphosis. Not-

Mark Kerr 46:10 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:10 Not even close really.

Mark Kerr 46:11 In that timeframe.

Joe Rogan 46:12 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 46:13 'Cause it's a short-

Joe Rogan 46:13 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 46:13 It's a short time frame-

Joe Rogan 46:14 Right.

Mark Kerr 46:15 ... because, because again, it's asking the question of like, okay, championship fight, 25 minutes, five five-minute rounds. How do you train for it?

Joe Rogan 46:24 Right. 'Cause the reality is no one can go full blast for five five-minute rounds.

Mark Kerr 46:29 Can't do it.

Joe Rogan 46:30 Maybe R- Merab can. (laughs)

Mark Kerr 46:32 Yeah. (laughs) I wouldn't fucking doubt that.

Joe Rogan 46:35 He might be the-

Mark Kerr 46:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:36 ... he might be the only guy-

Mark Kerr 46:38 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 46:38 ... 'cause he doesn't seem to get tired.

Mark Kerr 46:39 You get... So this is, this is like, observationally, usually in a championship fight, if it's a striker against a wrestler, usually the first two rounds strikers usually have that advantage. In the third round, if you go back and watch this third round, the grappler starts to impose a little bit more on him.

Joe Rogan 46:57 Right, they get stuff takedowns-

Mark Kerr 46:57 And then fourth, fourth and fifth round is a grappler completely just takes that-

Joe Rogan 47:02 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 47:02 ... fight over 'cause it's one of those things where y- you, it's that grind.

Joe Rogan 47:08 Yes.

Mark Kerr 47:08 It's that f-

Joe Rogan 47:09 It's also, uh-

Mark Kerr 47:09 ... fucking grind.

Joe Rogan 47:10 ... a big part of being able to stuff take- do you want some coffee?

Mark Kerr 47:12 Yeah, thank you.

Joe Rogan 47:12 A big part of being able to stuff take downs is having energy.

Mark Kerr 47:15 Oh my God-

Joe Rogan 47:16 Because like, like-

Mark Kerr 47:16 ... it's everything.

Joe Rogan 47:16 ... guys trying to fuck you up and take you down, there's so much energy involved in trying to stuff a take down. And then when you don't have it you're like, "I'm just gonna let him take me down. I'll just-

Mark Kerr 47:25 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 47:25 ... like, take a break here and then work back to the..." But no. Like, with some guys like, you're not getting back up. You're just gonna get-

Mark Kerr 47:31 No.

Joe Rogan 47:31 ... elbowed in the face.

Mark Kerr 47:32 You're... That... I'm just gonna grind you-

Joe Rogan 47:34 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 47:34 ... into a pulp.

Joe Rogan 47:35 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 47:35 And that's that control thing, right?

Joe Rogan 47:37 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 47:37 Part of, part of what I, I go... Like, if I look at my fighting going, I was never gonna be the best striker. Like, never gonna be the best kicker, puncher. But if I could turn you into a wrestler, that's... That was the secret sauce for me.

Joe Rogan 47:52 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 47:52 I just need to make you wrestle me.

Joe Rogan 47:54 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 47:54 And I'm good.

Joe Rogan 47:55 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 47:55 Right?

Joe Rogan 47:56 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 47:56 'Cause I know I can fucking beat the fuck out of you wrestling.

Joe Rogan 47:59 Yeah. Well, that's-

Mark Kerr 48:00 The key was tr- transitioning to make you wrestle me.

Joe Rogan 48:03 Yeah, it's the specialist, specialist thing. It's like, if you wanna be a specialist, being a specialist at wrestling is by far-

Mark Kerr 48:11 By far.

Joe Rogan 48:12 When y- when you see what Khamzat did to Dricus, like he's like-

Mark Kerr 48:14 Oh my God, Khamzat, th- and that's the example.

Joe Rogan 48:16 Yeah, perfect example.

Mark Kerr 48:18 Like... That's elite, elite, elite wrestler.

Joe Rogan 48:20 Against a world champion MMA fighter who's been dominating everybody and who's very difficult to take down. And Khamzat just ramped it up-... kept it up-

Mark Kerr 48:29 Attack.

Joe Rogan 48:30 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 48:30 And like I was saying-

Joe Rogan 48:31 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 48:32 ... that, that Russian, Dagestan, Uzbekistan.

Joe Rogan 48:36 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 48:36 It's this ability to sustain an attack repeatedly.

Joe Rogan 48:40 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 48:41 'Cause it's that cardiovascular system. Born at 6,000 feet in altitude, 7,000 feet in altitude, little bit more of an advantage, right?

Joe Rogan 48:47 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 48:48 And so you end up with these attacks where you can sustain them beyond your ability to defend them.

Joe Rogan 48:54 It's also having such a technical game that as you're implementing the first attack, you've already got three attacks-

Mark Kerr 49:01 Three attacks on it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:02 ... on standby. Like, and then as-

Mark Kerr 49:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:03 ... he counters, you're-

Mark Kerr 49:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:04 ... you've anticipated the counter. You have a counter-

Mark Kerr 49:06 Yep.

Joe Rogan 49:06 ... to his counter, and then a counter to his readjusting after your counter.

Mark Kerr 49:11 Oh.

Joe Rogan 49:11 And you're, you're just hitting him over and o- he just can't keep the rhythm.

Mark Kerr 49:14 I, I literally, I text my son. I was at that fight. I text my son. I go, "This is what an elite wrestler could do to a professional fighter."

Joe Rogan 49:22 It's nuts. It's nuts 'cause it was like, a lot of people thought it was boring because it just di- didn't get to a deci- you know, it just went to a decision. But you just kind of appreciate that level of dominance-

Mark Kerr 49:34 Ugh.

Joe Rogan 49:34 ... against a world champion. It's kind of crazy. Where the guy before the fight, Dricus was being looked at as one of the greatest middleweights of all time. I mean, look at what he did to all these guys. He knocks out Robert Whittaker. He beats out Esonwune. He fucking beats Sean Strickland twice. Like, oh, my God, he might be one of the greatest-

Mark Kerr 49:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:52 ... of all time.

Mark Kerr 49:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:53 And then after that fight, you're like, "I don't think he's ever gonna beat that guy."

Mark Kerr 49:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:56 "I don't think he's ever going to beat that guy."

Mark Kerr 49:58 Isn't that crazy?

Joe Rogan 49:59 It was like, I don't think there's enough time in the world-

Mark Kerr 50:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:02 ... to bridge that gap.

Mark Kerr 50:03 You can't.

Joe Rogan 50:04 It's just nuts.

Mark Kerr 50:04 You can never catch up.

Joe Rogan 50:05 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 50:06 And like, I would never pretend stepping, into the Octagon that I would be able to get elite striking skills, right? You know, um, it, like that gap could just y-

Joe Rogan 50:16 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 50:16 It's constantly just something you never can get to.

Joe Rogan 50:19 It's also this thing about-

Mark Kerr 50:19 You know, it's like Sean, it's like Sean O'Malley, right?

Joe Rogan 50:22 Uh-huh.

Mark Kerr 50:23 He's gonna... The only way that he's gonna be able to get a championship back is somebody else needs to beat-

Joe Rogan 50:28 Merab.

Mark Kerr 50:29 Yeah, Merab.

Joe Rogan 50:30 Yeah, and then it's gotta be stylistically-

Mark Kerr 50:32 Stylistically match up.

Joe Rogan 50:34 ... got to line up. Yeah.

Mark Kerr 50:34 Right? That's, that's-

Joe Rogan 50:35 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 50:35 ... that conflict a matchup, 'cause skills, you're not gonna do that. That's-

Joe Rogan 50:38 You mean, he got better for the second fight?

Mark Kerr 50:41 He did.

Joe Rogan 50:41 But it still-

Mark Kerr 50:41 A lot better, but still-

Joe Rogan 50:42 So did Merab, though.

Mark Kerr 50:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:44 That was part of the problem. That guy's not s- he's not stopping.

Mark Kerr 50:47 God, how old is he?

Joe Rogan 50:48 Merab? I think he's 34. How old is Merab? Merab Dvalishvili.

Narrator 50:56 34.

Joe Rogan 50:56 34.

Mark Kerr 50:56 Wow.

Joe Rogan 50:56 Yeah, he's 34. So he's, you know, he's in his prime right now.

Mark Kerr 51:00 God.

Joe Rogan 51:00 In his prime for another few years at least.

Mark Kerr 51:03 Yeah. I would, I would think that it's one where there's gonna be a lot of people that think they can, but that's just a different animal.

Joe Rogan 51:10 Yeah, it's gonna take someone who's that kind of a wrestler who maybe has a striking advantage.

Mark Kerr 51:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:15 Who could beat him.

Mark Kerr 51:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:17 But then, you know-

Mark Kerr 51:18 That's an anomaly. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:19 It's just... It's such a crazy sport to watch that, you know, from 1994 to 2025, it's almost unrecognizable, the difference in the gap.

Mark Kerr 51:31 You can't, you can't. Like, like there was a period of time where I couldn't, I couldn't watch, uh, I didn't watch the UFC probably about like seven, eight, nine years. And, uh, over the last five, six years I've watched it, uh, almost religiously, right? And just realizing the fighters today, oh my God, man, they're, they hit a level and it's that, it's that mutation. It's like this first generation-

Joe Rogan 51:56 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 51:56 ... second generation.

Joe Rogan 51:56 Mm-hmm. Yes.

Mark Kerr 51:57 And they're advancing so fast that you're looking at these new fight... You're like, where... Like, it's such a unique set of skills to do this.

Joe Rogan 52:07 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 52:07 Incredible set of skills, unique to any other sport in the world.

Joe Rogan 52:12 And it's j- and it's also you're really fighting three different sports as one sport.

Mark Kerr 52:17 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:17 Which is really nuts. You're fighting grappling, you're fighting jujitsu-

Mark Kerr 52:21 Jujitsu and striking.

Joe Rogan 52:22 ... and you're fighting striking all together.

Mark Kerr 52:23 Yeah. And-

Joe Rogan 52:23 In one sport.

Mark Kerr 52:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:24 And it's like, wow.

Mark Kerr 52:25 It's like playing soccer, football-

Joe Rogan 52:27 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 52:27 ... and baseball at the same time. (laughs) It's like, how the fuck would you do that?

Joe Rogan 52:30 Yeah, while getting kicked.

Mark Kerr 52:32 While getting kicked. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:34 While getting kicked and punched and elbowed. It's is, uh... But without guys like you, it would have never gotten here because if there weren't people that were willing to fight for very little money, travel overseas, have these crazy events and, you know, and beat your body up and do what you did and what Coleman did and a lot of those guys did in the beginning, without you guys, there's-

Mark Kerr 52:58 Oh, I appreciate that.

Joe Rogan 52:58 There is no UFC today.

Mark Kerr 53:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:00 It's just not, it's not the same.

Mark Kerr 53:01 It was, you know, one... Like being in the Hall of Fame and being in the Pioneer Wing and understanding that, um... Like I said to myself, you know, even if I advance the sport, you know, this much, it needed this much at the time to get to where it is today, right?

Joe Rogan 53:17 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 53:18 Like Coleman advanced the sport this much.

Joe Rogan 53:20 Yeah. Well, you guys brought in the new element and the new element was elite wrestling-

Mark Kerr 53:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:25 ... with enormous muscles.

Mark Kerr 53:27 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:28 And it's like... And everybody was like-

Mark Kerr 53:29 And we were like, oh, shit.

Joe Rogan 53:29 ... "This is a real problem."

Mark Kerr 53:31 Yeah. Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:32 And especially in the early, early days because Coleman would get in your garden and just headbutt the fuck out of you.

Mark Kerr 53:38 Oh.

Joe Rogan 53:38 'Cause headbutts were legal.

Mark Kerr 53:39 Those were legal.

Joe Rogan 53:39 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 53:40 Legal.

Joe Rogan 53:40 Like, and bare knuckle. Like when I-

Mark Kerr 53:42 Oh.

Joe Rogan 53:42 ... first did his, why I interviewed him after he beat Dan Severn when he became the first-

Mark Kerr 53:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:47 ... UFC Heavyweight Champion.

Mark Kerr 53:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:48 Total bare knuckle.

Mark Kerr 53:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:49 He had a little bit of tape on the, on the hands, sort of keep the bones from snapping in half, but that was it.

Mark Kerr 53:55 Isn't that, isn't that frightening?

Joe Rogan 53:56 Wild.

Mark Kerr 53:57 Like, like people look... I, I, you know, they watch it now and, and you know, this, this film, right? It, it gives, it gives people a l- a little bit of a look inside of, like, what it was.

Joe Rogan 54:10 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 54:10 And, and you know, for, for me, the, the cool part about it is understanding like, I'm... Like I said, I'm just a little piece, but that little piece is necessary to be able for me to watch some of the guys do what they do now.

Joe Rogan 54:29 Well, it's different than any other sport in that these little pieces had to be there before people could figure out what to do.

Mark Kerr 54:36 Yeah. Well-

Joe Rogan 54:37 And then-

Mark Kerr 54:37 ... Dana put them all together.

Joe Rogan 54:38 ... yeah.

Mark Kerr 54:38 You know, when I, when I actually talked to him when I was in Newark, that's one thing I said. I said, "Look what you built." You can feel however you want about, you know, him pers-... I go, "Look what you built."

Joe Rogan 54:48 Yeah, well-

Mark Kerr 54:49 Like, no one could even imagine this.

Joe Rogan 54:51 Well, you have to be a madman to do what he does. Like, he, that guy works so hard, and he works so many hours, and he fucking loves it. And he loves the sport, like truly loves the sport. He and I have, like, long conversations on the phone-

Mark Kerr 55:03 I would imagine.

Joe Rogan 55:04 ... about fights.

Mark Kerr 55:05 I would imagine.

Joe Rogan 55:06 Just about, like, I'll go, "What are you gonna do about this guy?" "Oh."

Mark Kerr 55:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:09 "When's that?" (laughs)

Mark Kerr 55:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:11 "When's this happening?"

Mark Kerr 55:12 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:12 You know? "Uh, d- is this true? Does this guy really get hurt?" "He did." "Fuck."

Mark Kerr 55:15 Yeah, oh my God.

Joe Rogan 55:16 "Is he out? Oh, it's minor? Okay, six weeks. So you're rescheduling it? Okay, good."

Mark Kerr 55:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:20 And you know, we have these long-ass conversations, and I'll tell him about kickboxers that I've been watching or tell him about these guys. I mean, that's one of the ways that we became friends. And one of the ways that I started working for him in the first place is 'cause we would have conversations when I first met him when I was on Fear Factor, and I wasn't even working for the UFC. I'd be like, "You gu- you watch the fights in Japan? Do you ever watch Japan Vale Tudo? Do you know about this guy?"

Mark Kerr 55:41 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 55:41 "Do you know about Hickson Gracie? Do you know about this guy?"

Mark Kerr 55:43 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:43 And I would just rattle him off different names.

Mark Kerr 55:45 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 55:45 And he was like, "What? What do you... How do you know all this?"

Mark Kerr 55:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:49 I'm like, "I don't know... I don't even know the rules to basketball."

Mark Kerr 55:52 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:52 "I don't know what's happening. I know when the ball goes in the net, it's good."

Mark Kerr 55:55 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:55 "I don't know the rules to football. I don't know the rules to any of this."

Mark Kerr 55:58 Yeah, exactly. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:59 I just, I only have room for combat sports.

Mark Kerr 56:01 Yeah, oh my God.

Joe Rogan 56:02 But, you know, ask me about, uh, Marcelo Garcia. Ask me about-

Mark Kerr 56:05 Yeah, yeah, I can answer those.

Joe Rogan 56:06 I'll rattle off-

Mark Kerr 56:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:07 ... some stats.

Mark Kerr 56:08 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 56:08 I know some shit about fighting. But to me, it was like... It was, uh, Eddie Bravo and I, when we were kids, when we were young, young fellas, when we, we were hanging around, working out, we would said to ourselves, like, "You know what this sport needs? Some crazy billionaires who love the sport that're just gonna dump a bunch of money." 'Cause we knew at the time, we were like, "This is the most ex- exciting sport in the world, right?"

Mark Kerr 56:30 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:30 So, all it needs is for these really rich guys to be fans of the sport. And it's almost like it manifested itself, 'cause that's what happened. The Fertittas came along-

Mark Kerr 56:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:40 ... and they were just really rich guys who loved the sport, and they took a crazy chance.

Mark Kerr 56:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:46 They were $40 million in the hole.

Mark Kerr 56:48 In debt, yeah. Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 56:49 $40 million in the hole on the UFC, and it was just losing money, losing money. And they just hung in there, year after year-

Mark Kerr 56:55 God.

Joe Rogan 56:55 ... after year, until they were almost ready to fucking sell, and then they decided to go forward with The Ultimate Fighter.

Mark Kerr 57:02 That's the game changer.

Joe Rogan 57:03 That was it.

Mark Kerr 57:04 That person-

Joe Rogan 57:04 2005.

Mark Kerr 57:04 That personalized it.

Joe Rogan 57:06 Yes, but-

Mark Kerr 57:06 That, that personalized it.

Joe Rogan 57:07 Well, people got to see it on Spike TV, and then it became... The fights were so wild that people were calling their friends-

Mark Kerr 57:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:16 ... and they were saying, "You gotta watch this." So as the, the show is on... And this is, like, before social media-

Mark Kerr 57:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:22 ... was really a thing.

Mark Kerr 57:23 All that, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:24 So as the fight was on, the, uh, the ratings kept going up and up and up and up, and it would... Like, Spike TV was like, "Holy shit-"

Mark Kerr 57:31 Shit, they're onto something.

Joe Rogan 57:32 "... we got a fucking hit."

Mark Kerr 57:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:32 "We got a hit."

Mark Kerr 57:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:33 And Diego Sanchez won the 185-pound division, and then the fight between Stephan Bonnar and Forrest Griffin.

Mark Kerr 57:40 That's the, that's the fight that changed everything.

Joe Rogan 57:42 Changed the game.

Mark Kerr 57:43 'Cause that's one of those, if you ask just a marginal fan, they'll refer to that.

Joe Rogan 57:48 Exactly.

Mark Kerr 57:49 They'll refer to that.

Joe Rogan 57:50 Because at the time, it was... Nobody had ever seen anything like it.

Mark Kerr 57:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:54 They didn't know what MMA was.

Mark Kerr 57:55 Yup.

Joe Rogan 57:55 And here it is on TV, and these two guys were so evenly matched. That was the best part about it. They both had trained together in the house for all those fucking weeks.

Mark Kerr 58:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:05 They'd all be talking shit to each other and all, and they knew they were gonna fight in the final, so it was, like, this long buildup, and they were-

Mark Kerr 58:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:12 ... perfectly matched.

Mark Kerr 58:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:14 And it was just bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, fucking-

Mark Kerr 58:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:16 ... swing, wheel kick, punch, takedown-

Mark Kerr 58:18 Oh, I mean there was so-

Joe Rogan 58:19 ... that's how- (screams)

Mark Kerr 58:20 ... much shit in there.

Joe Rogan 58:21 (screams)

Mark Kerr 58:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:22 That fight just went on and on, and at the end of it, the whole crowd was like-

Mark Kerr 58:25 Yes! (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:27 ... "Oh my gosh!"

Mark Kerr 58:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:27 And, uh, you know-

Mark Kerr 58:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:28 ... I was the one... I was the first person to suggest, I was like, "They both should have a fucking contract. This is crazy."

Mark Kerr 58:34 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:34 "You can't take a contract away from one of these guys for this fight." And the... And Dana, to his credit-

Mark Kerr 58:38 Gave them both of 'em.

Joe Rogan 58:39 ... gave both those guys the contract.

Mark Kerr 58:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:41 And it was... All of a sudden, the sport was hot, and then Chuck Liddell was the poster boy.

Mark Kerr 58:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:45 Because he was the perfect guy to be the most famous champion at the time-

Mark Kerr 58:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:50 ... 'cause he was a destroyer.

Mark Kerr 58:52 Oh, God. He was-

Joe Rogan 58:52 He would just seek-

Mark Kerr 58:53 ... yeah, unreal.

Joe Rogan 58:53 ... and destroy. And he had an iron chin, and he just-

Mark Kerr 58:57 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 58:57 And he would just stare at you with a fucking serial killer's eyes and just march-

Mark Kerr 59:02 You know what? When you watched him... Like, me watching him, he was so awkward when he held his hands and punched. It was so... Like, even watching it now, going, he was just hunting.

Joe Rogan 59:13 Yup.

Mark Kerr 59:13 He was just hunting.

Joe Rogan 59:15 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 59:15 And hunting.

Joe Rogan 59:15 And loading up with everything.

Mark Kerr 59:16 And he would hunt, and it wasn't like-

Joe Rogan 59:19 No.

Mark Kerr 59:19 ... it was every single thing was thrown with intent.

Joe Rogan 59:22 Yeah, everything was shown, uh, thrown to shut-

Mark Kerr 59:25 Oh, brutal.

Joe Rogan 59:26 ... you off.

Mark Kerr 59:26 Ugh.

Joe Rogan 59:27 And he could do it, and he could do it for five fucking rounds, too, which was crazy.

Mark Kerr 59:30 Which is, yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:31 And his pro-... The, the thing about that style is, it's unsustainable. You-

Mark Kerr 59:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:36 He never ducked or punched in his life.

Mark Kerr 59:38 No. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:38 He took 'em, threw them, and then fucking (screams) and blasted right through.

Mark Kerr 59:42 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:42 He had an iron jaw.

Mark Kerr 59:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:44 It was fucking iron.

Mark Kerr 59:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:45 But everybody's iron jaw gives out after a while.

Mark Kerr 59:47 It does, it just does.

Joe Rogan 59:48 You can't... And he trained that way too.

Mark Kerr 59:49 You can't sus- you can't sustain it. It's just one where...

Joe Rogan 59:52 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 59:52 Um, so when the Fertittas first bought the UFC, um, I was living in California, and a friend of mine who was helping me at the time said, "Hey, listen, uh, they're up at Big Bear having a training camp." I'm like, "Okay, let's go up." So get in my truck, drive up. It starts snowing. It was like February. They were gonna do their first big push with Tito, right?

Joe Rogan 1:00:12 Hmm.

Mark Kerr 1:00:13 And, uh, I get hit by a drunk driver at 11:00 AM in the morning-

Joe Rogan 1:00:16 Oh my God.

Mark Kerr 1:00:17 ... on the way up. So, uh, my attorney was in the car with us. He, I, he... Literally, the tow truck takes us up to the top of the hill. Um, I still get to talk to Dana, I still get to talk to Frank and Lorenzo, and I'm like, "Yeah, I got hit by a drunk driver." He's like, "Well, we're going to Beverly Hills Wheelchair tomorrow. Why don't you just jump in the limo with us, and we'll take you down?" I'm like, "Okay." So I get, like, this three-hour (laughs) drive down the mountain with Frank and Lorenzo, the new owners of the UFC.

Joe Rogan 1:00:44 Wow.

Mark Kerr 1:00:45 And we're just sitting there talking. They're, they're like, "Hey, you know, how is it working in Japan?" They knew everything about me.

Joe Rogan 1:00:50 Hmm.

Mark Kerr 1:00:50 "How is it working in Japan? How did they do this? How did they do that?" And it was just this really cool conversation, really cool experience to be able to go, "Okay, maybe this has landed in the right spot."

Joe Rogan 1:01:01 Oh, they were the right guys.They were the right guys, because they were ... Like, Frank and Lorenzo are rabid fans.

Mark Kerr 1:01:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:08 Like, rabid.

Mark Kerr 1:01:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:09 And they would train and they would beat the fuck out of each other.

Mark Kerr 1:01:12 Yeah. Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:12 And that's where they met Frank. Frank, they brought Frank in to help them, to what, they've kind of erased Frank. So, Frank Shamrock, in my opinion, is one of the all-time greats, and also one of the most important in terms of the metamorphosis-

Mark Kerr 1:01:28 I agree.

Joe Rogan 1:01:28 ... in terms of the evolution of the sport.

Mark Kerr 1:01:30 I agree.

Joe Rogan 1:01:30 Because Frank was the first guy with elite cardio that could do everything. He could submit you off his back, like remember when he fought Kevin Jackson?

Mark Kerr 1:01:38 Yep, yep, yep, yep.

Joe Rogan 1:01:38 Caught him in an arm bar, bang!

Mark Kerr 1:01:40 Yup, yup.

Joe Rogan 1:01:40 First round, right off his-

Mark Kerr 1:01:40 Yup.

Joe Rogan 1:01:40 He was elite everywhere and his cardio was off the charts. When he fought Tito Ortiz, Tito was much bigger than him.

Mark Kerr 1:01:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:48 Not just a little bit bigger than him.

Mark Kerr 1:01:50 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:50 Frank's not a big framed guy.

Mark Kerr 1:01:52 No, no.

Joe Rogan 1:01:52 And Tito is a fucking house, right?

Mark Kerr 1:01:55 Tito's, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:55 And he just overwhelmed him, beat him down with cardio and then after that fight, Tito taught everybody, cardio is number one.

Mark Kerr 1:02:05 It's king. King, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:05 It's number one.

Mark Kerr 1:02:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:07 He, when he was teaching, when he was coaching on the Ultimate Fighter, he told everybody, "It's fucking cardio."

Mark Kerr 1:02:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:12 "Without cardio, you have nothing." And his cardio was legendary too.

Mark Kerr 1:02:16 I mean, they say what g- fatigue makes cowards of us all, right?

Joe Rogan 1:02:19 Yeah. It's true.

Mark Kerr 1:02:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:20 It's true.

Mark Kerr 1:02:21 I mean, it's just one of those, and again, this goes back to what I was saying about Frank and I having conversations back then about heart rate training.

Joe Rogan 1:02:28 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 1:02:29 25 years ago, you go, "Heart rate, what? Fuck- " You little polar, you know, f- watch and-

Joe Rogan 1:02:34 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 1:02:34 ... you know, keep and like, "Oh, we need to recover this many beats in a minute," but actively recover, right?

Joe Rogan 1:02:40 Right.

Mark Kerr 1:02:40 Like, you had to still continue to do shit-

Joe Rogan 1:02:42 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 1:02:42 ... and recover. And this is what Frank was saying, "Yeah, I started doing this." I'm like, "What the fuck?" Like-

Joe Rogan 1:02:47 He was a very smart, well, he is a very smart guy.

Mark Kerr 1:02:49 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:50 And I don't know why they had some kind of a falling out, but they, but they don't highlight him anymore. They don't talk about him at all. And I think that's-

Mark Kerr 1:02:56 Pivotal, pivotal.

Joe Rogan 1:02:57 I think you gotta let that go, just for the honor of what happened.

Mark Kerr 1:03:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:02 The honor of the sport.

Mark Kerr 1:03:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:03 'Cause the, for the honor of the sport, when you look at Frank, like when you look at his fights, like he was elite, man. He was top of the food chain.

Mark Kerr 1:03:12 He was ahead of his time. He was ahead of his time.

Joe Rogan 1:03:13 He was ahead of his time.

Mark Kerr 1:03:14 By, by far.

Joe Rogan 1:03:15 He was the first-

Mark Kerr 1:03:16 By far.

Joe Rogan 1:03:16 ... really, truly complete mixed martial artist.

Mark Kerr 1:03:18 I agree. I agree.

Joe Rogan 1:03:19 You know, and people see him, like the fight that he fought when he was fighting in Strikeforce. You're not seeing the same guy. You're seeing him, it's later in his life, you see when he fought Nick Diaz. You can't... It's like what I said about GOATs.

Mark Kerr 1:03:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:31 You wanna look at BJ Penn, you look at BJ Penn-

Mark Kerr 1:03:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:33 ... when he fought Sean Sherk.

Mark Kerr 1:03:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:35 Look at BJ Penn when he fought Big Daddy Stevenson, that's one of the scariest fucking guys-

Mark Kerr 1:03:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:39 ... who's ever stepped in an octagon at 155 pounds, period.

Mark Kerr 1:03:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:42 I'd put him with all of them and I don't know what happens. And then there's Khabib, same-

Mark Kerr 1:03:47 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:47 ... same sort- you put that guy with any 155 pounder who's ever existed and I don't know what's gonna happen.

Mark Kerr 1:03:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:53 How you gonna beat that guy?

Mark Kerr 1:03:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:54 You know, there's, there's a few guys like that and Khabib has to be in that conversation too. When you look at his dominance over, uh, like the way he was winning fights, I'll never forget when he fought Edson Barboza, it was in the first round. And Edson had this look in his eyes like, "Oh my God-

Mark Kerr 1:04:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:09 ... I've gotta give you that many more rounds."

Mark Kerr 1:04:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:11 "With this motherfucker?" 'Cause he was just already exhausted and this fucking animal from Dagestan was just on him, on him, dragging him to the ground.

Mark Kerr 1:04:22 Oh my God, man. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:22 I'll never forget, we had Michael Johnson down on the ground. He's beco- beating Michael Johnson up and he's like, "Quit, quit. You know I need title shot, it's mine. You know title shot is mine."

Mark Kerr 1:04:32 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 1:04:32 "You know I deserve this. Quit." And he's just beating the fuck out of him, trying to be nice.

Mark Kerr 1:04:37 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:04:37 He gets him in Kimura and I'm going, "Please tap."

Mark Kerr 1:04:40 He's gonna tap. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:41 I'm like, "Please tap."

Mark Kerr 1:04:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:42 "Please tap." 'Cause I'm seeing that spiral fracture-

Mark Kerr 1:04:44 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 1:04:45 ... when they get that spiral fracture-

Mark Kerr 1:04:46 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:47 ... I'm seeing it coming.

Mark Kerr 1:04:47 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 1:04:47 I'm like, "Please tap. Plea-"

Mark Kerr 1:04:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:49 We'd already been through that with Frank-

Mark Kerr 1:04:51 Oh my God. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:51 ... when Frank got Minotauro in there.

Mark Kerr 1:04:53 Yeah, oh my God.

Joe Rogan 1:04:53 Here it is, he's talking to him, he's like, "Listen, give me some volume." I need to fight for the title. You know I deserve this. You know I deserve this. "Yeah it is. He's talking to him, he's like, "Listen, give me some volume." Listen, give me some volume. I need to fight for the title. You know I deserve this. "I need to fight for the title. You know I deserve this. Come on, buddy. I don't wanna have to hurt you."

Mark Kerr 1:05:04 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 1:05:05 You know I deserve this. Look at this. I mean, he is doing whatever-

Mark Kerr 1:05:09 I've never seen this.

Joe Rogan 1:05:09 I need to fight for the title. You know I deserve this. But this is, speaks to your point. See, everybody agrees, the people are cheering. Look, I need to fight for it. "Look, I need to fight for it." Look at, he's, he's trying to be nice to him. That's-

Mark Kerr 1:05:21 See, that's-

Joe Rogan 1:05:22 ... such dominance.

Mark Kerr 1:05:23 It is.

Joe Rogan 1:05:23 Trying to be nice to a nice guy, like come on, you know what the fuck is going on.

Mark Kerr 1:05:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:28 And again, to his credit, he didn't, I think he coulda just fucking ripped that arm apart. He let him tap. He let him tap. I think he coulda-

Mark Kerr 1:05:35 Wow. Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:05:36 He was so dominant, man.

Mark Kerr 1:05:37 So this is, this is like again we're saying at the, like taking somebody's fucking will.

Joe Rogan 1:05:42 Taking it, he was a will taker.

Mark Kerr 1:05:43 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 1:05:43 Like what he did to Conor, when he got on top of Conor, he's like, "Let's talk now. Let's talk now." Just beating his face in, going, "Come on, you wanna talk? Let's talk now."

Mark Kerr 1:05:51 Oh my God, man. You talk about, about humble pie, like it fucking-

Joe Rogan 1:05:55 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 1:05:55 ... having to sit back and like ...

Joe Rogan 1:05:58 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 1:05:59 'Cause that, that's at a level where, where, 'cause you're a bad motherfucker to begin with. And somebody that's even a badder motherfucker-

Joe Rogan 1:06:06 Who just dominates you.

Mark Kerr 1:06:07 Just, oh my God.

Joe Rogan 1:06:08 Just could kill you. Same size as you and basically he could kill you. If he wanted to, you're dead.

Mark Kerr 1:06:13 Oh my God, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:14 You're not gonna live, he's gonna live.

Mark Kerr 1:06:15 He could just literally choke you unconscious.

Joe Rogan 1:06:17 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 1:06:17 And just keep choking you 'til you're...

Joe Rogan 1:06:18 I mean, he was gonna break his neck.

Mark Kerr 1:06:20 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 1:06:20 He had him in that fulcrum choke, that is such a, a nasty choke. Look, here's where he gets it. So he's getting it and he's holding onto it, look.

Mark Kerr 1:06:28 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 1:06:28 He's not, he's not doing, he's not going all through.

Mark Kerr 1:06:31 No, no, no.

Joe Rogan 1:06:31 If he wanted to, he could-

Mark Kerr 1:06:32 He coulda just ripped it off.

Joe Rogan 1:06:33 Drop that right hip down.

Mark Kerr 1:06:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:35 Pull that left arm up and that thing's snapping like a twig. It's so scary.

Mark Kerr 1:06:39 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 1:06:39 That's my scariest tech- other than guys, when they break their shins-

Mark Kerr 1:06:43 Yeah. Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 1:06:44 ... when they go shin to knee-

Mark Kerr 1:06:45 Yeah, shin to knee.

Joe Rogan 1:06:46 ... and the shin snaps in half. Uh.

Mark Kerr 1:06:48 Like sil- silver breaking is like, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:50 That was horrible. Weidman was the worst.

Mark Kerr 1:06:52 That, like that stuff, I, one watch is, is good enough. It's good enough.

Joe Rogan 1:06:56 Oh, it was so, when Weidman was so loud.

Mark Kerr 1:06:57 You don't need to pull, you don't need to pull that one off. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:59 (laughs) And Weidman, yeah, don't pull that one.

Mark Kerr 1:07:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:01 Weidman's went through his calf.

Mark Kerr 1:07:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:04 His bone snapped through-

Mark Kerr 1:07:05 No, no, no, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:05 ... and poked out of his calf. Which is real dangerous too because then you run the risk of heavy infection-

Mark Kerr 1:07:12 Heavier, yeah, all of that. Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:07:13 ... all that, you're on the dirty mat and you got an open wound, and ugh.

Mark Kerr 1:07:17 ... no, some of that stuff is just, like, gosh, man, it's other level.

Joe Rogan 1:07:20 Do you feel weird that you did it? Like, now when you look back-

Mark Kerr 1:07:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:23 ... now you've been removed for so long, do you like, "You beat the fuck out of somebody today."

Mark Kerr 1:07:28 Oh, my God. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:28 (laughs) I remember when you took-

Mark Kerr 1:07:29 Uh.

Joe Rogan 1:07:29 ... Dan Bobish down, you stuck your-

Mark Kerr 1:07:31 Oh, g-

Joe Rogan 1:07:31 ... chin in his eyeball.

Mark Kerr 1:07:31 Oh, my God, man. First an- the only one still exists, right?

Joe Rogan 1:07:35 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 1:07:35 Is the submission by, uh, chin and eyeball choke.

Joe Rogan 1:07:38 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 1:07:38 I- I don't know if you call it a choke, but...

Joe Rogan 1:07:39 I'd never seen anybody do that before. I'm like, "That's genius."

Mark Kerr 1:07:42 Y- you know what? It wasn't illegal.

Joe Rogan 1:07:44 It wasn't illegal.

Mark Kerr 1:07:45 And it- I know it hurt like a motherfucker for him.

Joe Rogan 1:07:48 Well, why would it be illegal? Why is okay to elbow the eyeball-

Mark Kerr 1:07:51 And you... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:51 ... but it's not okay to shove your chin-

Mark Kerr 1:07:52 You shove your chin. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:53 ... in there?

Mark Kerr 1:07:53 Chin, I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:07:54 You know, and those were the headbutt days.

Mark Kerr 1:07:56 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:56 So headbutts were legal, so why wouldn't it be legal to sh-

Mark Kerr 1:07:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:59 You could chin-butt a guy if you wanted to, I guess.

Mark Kerr 1:08:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:01 So if you- you use... I mean, but the thing is, it's a real weapon.

Mark Kerr 1:08:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:06 It is real.

Mark Kerr 1:08:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:06 It's very effective. Like, I don't think we should poke to eyes because, uh, you know-

Mark Kerr 1:08:11 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:11 ... that'd be pretty e-

Mark Kerr 1:08:11 That's a different thing.

Joe Rogan 1:08:12 Eyes are so vulnerable, but that is also obviously a real weapon. Like, Kung Fu guys point it out all the time. They go, "Look, these guys are the toughest fighters in the world. You poke them in the eyes, and they're fucked."

Mark Kerr 1:08:21 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:22 They're right.

Mark Kerr 1:08:23 Yeah. The-

Joe Rogan 1:08:23 They're right.

Mark Kerr 1:08:23 Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:25 I mean, I don't know how good you are-

Mark Kerr 1:08:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:25 ... at eye poking, you have to be a pretty fucking accurate at the eyes.

Mark Kerr 1:08:28 Yeah, you have to be really good.

Joe Rogan 1:08:28 It's not something you count on.

Mark Kerr 1:08:29 No. No.

Joe Rogan 1:08:31 Yeah, here it is.

Mark Kerr 1:08:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:33 You shoved your fucking-

Mark Kerr 1:08:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:34 ... chin right in his eyeball.

Mark Kerr 1:08:35 And he's just like... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:36 Bro.

Mark Kerr 1:08:36 And I kno- so y- so when I'm down there, you could- I could hear him, "Oh," like-

Joe Rogan 1:08:41 Oh, yeah.

Mark Kerr 1:08:42 ... fuck, that hurt.

Joe Rogan 1:08:43 Oh, it was horrible, dude. It was horrible.

Mark Kerr 1:08:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:45 But it's, again, it speaks to what we're talking about, the- the dominance of elite wrestling and how elite wrestling, it surpasses all martial arts.

Mark Kerr 1:08:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:52 It's the number one most... And an elite wrestler can learn jujitsu.

Mark Kerr 1:08:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:56 Okay? An elite grappler can, you could easily teach them how to do head and arm chokes, triangles.

Mark Kerr 1:09:01 Yeah. All that. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:02 All that.

Mark Kerr 1:09:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:03 That's not...

Mark Kerr 1:09:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:03 You're already used to manipulating bodies.

Mark Kerr 1:09:05 So part, so part of, um, my participation ADCC was, was to represent wrestling.

Joe Rogan 1:09:12 Hmm.

Mark Kerr 1:09:14 Right?

Joe Rogan 1:09:14 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 1:09:14 'Cause the first year, when I got approached to go over there, I'm like, "I, what, like, what is that? Like, is it submission grappling, like, um, like Gilis grappling or Gilis jujitsu?"

Joe Rogan 1:09:24 Right.

Mark Kerr 1:09:24 And they're like, "Hey, listen, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna give you X, you know, come over." And it wasn't a ton, it was like $15,000 to go over.

Joe Rogan 1:09:32 Hmm.

Mark Kerr 1:09:32 And I was like, "Uh, okay."

Joe Rogan 1:09:34 (laughs)

Mark Kerr 1:09:34 I was like, "All right." (laughs) Was like, "Fuck, I don't know." But I'm-

Joe Rogan 1:09:37 While you were fighting?

Mark Kerr 1:09:38 Yeah. While I was, while I was fighting.

Joe Rogan 1:09:40 Yeah.

Mark Kerr 1:09:40 And so I'm like, "Okay, I just go..."

Joe Rogan 1:09:42 Just as a sort of surprise, surprised?

Mark Kerr 1:09:44 S- surp- it, it was one of those where I was like, "Okay, now that it's explained to me," I go, "Well, wrestlers need to be represented there."

Joe Rogan 1:09:51 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 1:09:51 Right?

Joe Rogan 1:09:51 Yes.

Mark Kerr 1:09:52 And so I go over there, and it was one of those things where it was like, "Well, I can actually show everybody here in this world that thinks their shit's dominant, like, no, this is a skillset you need. You need elite wrestling skills."

Joe Rogan 1:10:07 Yes.

Mark Kerr 1:10:08 Right? You can have jujitsu blackbelt and all this stuff, but if you're missing this piece component to it-

Joe Rogan 1:10:13 Mm-hmm.

Mark Kerr 1:10:13 ... you're fucked.

Joe Rogan 1:10:14 You're fucked. You're fucked. And-

Mark Kerr 1:10:15 And so it was all about control.

Joe Rogan 1:10:17 Did you see, um, the most recent fight with, uh, Mauricio Rufio?

Mark Kerr 1:10:22 No. Mm-mm.

Joe Rogan 1:10:23 Okay, so Mauricio Rufio, who is one of the most dynamic strikers in the sport, he's literally like a big Conor. I mean, it doesn't make sense that he's in the same weight class as Conor, 'cause I think he's 6'1".

Mark Kerr 1:10:35 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:10:35 But he's real-

Mark Kerr 1:10:36 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:10:36 ... tall. He's at least six feet tall. He's real tall and long, and just elite striker. But he fought this cat, Benoit Saint Denis, who is a judo blackbelt, elite on the ground, super fucking strong, and he just dominated him, man. He got ahold of him, ragdolled him, got him to the ground. And Mauricio had his moments in the fight standing because-

Mark Kerr 1:10:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:57 ... Benoit Saint Denis is a French Special Forces guy.

Mark Kerr 1:11:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:00 He's a hard motherfucker.

Mark Kerr 1:11:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:02 And so he did stand with Mauricio for a little bit, but he, he got dinged up a little bit, but once he got him to the ground, it was just full domination.

Mark Kerr 1:11:10 God.

Joe Rogan 1:11:11 And then it left everybody in this position where we were looking at Mauricio Rufio as being like, "M- that guy's a future world champion."

Mark Kerr 1:11:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:17 To like, "Oh, no, like that gap's too wide."

Mark Kerr 1:11:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:20 Like, he's gotta-

Mark Kerr 1:11:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:20 ... learn so much-

Mark Kerr 1:11:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:22 ...