Joe Rogan Experience #2384 - Mark Kerr

1. 0:00 – 3:21

   Why 'The Smashing Machine' works as a film (not just an MMA movie)

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. (drumbeats)

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Good. Mark, what's happening?

   3. MKMark Kerr0:14

      Joe.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Dude, the movie's fantastic. And I, and I know I told you outside, but I wanted to save it. Uh, when I kind of have a, had a little bit of a prejudice when I went to see the movie. I was like, "Okay, it's gonna be an MMA movie."

   5. MKMark Kerr0:26

      Yeah.

   6. NANarrator0:26

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:26

      But it's not. It's a movie that happens to be about MMA, but it's a great movie.

   8. MKMark Kerr0:32

      Oh, I appreciate that.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:32

      It's, it's really good, man. It's, it's like, you know, it's v- very gripping, and the performances are fantastic, and the way The Rock did you was nuts.

   10. MKMark Kerr0:43

       I, like, I can't explain it. Uh, it, I, I keep using the word surreal, but it doesn't describe it. Um, like I was saying that, uh, my son, when he watched it, and just flipping out, like, talking to me, like on the side, like I was saying, like literally just going, "Dad, Dad, he's got your mannerisms."

   11. NANarrator1:04

       (laughs)

   12. MKMark Kerr1:04

       "He's got your speech manner." But if you imagine, like I'm, I'm picturing my son, he's in New York when he watched it. Like-

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:10

       Right.

   14. MKMark Kerr1:10

       Uh, and so I'm picturing him in the corner of the lobby of the theater, talking with his back to everybody going, "Oh my God, Dad, like, it's like a doppelganger."

   15. NANarrator1:20

       (laughs)

   16. MKMark Kerr1:20

       "He's got all of it." You know, like full-blown, like, it was like the, the, the, 'cause a lot of my saying for myself is I'm, uh, I can't see the forest through the trees. I'm in the middle of it. Am I looking at it objectively? Am I really looking at it, or am I seeing something? And to hear my son say, "Oh my gosh, Dad, he nailed it."

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:37

       Right. No, he-

   18. MKMark Kerr1:38

       Unbelievable.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:39

       He really did nail it. I, like we were saying in the lobby, like, I didn't know The Rock could act that well.

   20. MKMark Kerr1:45

       You know-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:45

       But it's really good acting. It's not like blockbuster movie acting, which is, he's great at that, but-

   22. MKMark Kerr1:51

       Yep.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:51

       ... it's, it's a different thing.

   24. MKMark Kerr1:52

       It, it, it's compl- it, so with DJ, I kept trying to say to him, "You don't have to do this, dude. Like, you don't have to do this." And he would, he would stop me and he would go, "Yeah, I do. I do."

   25. JRJoe Rogan2:05

       What do you mean by you don't have to do this? You don't have to, like-

   26. MKMark Kerr2:06

       So meaning that, like, he's at a, he's at-

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:08

       ... totally beat me?

   28. MKMark Kerr2:09

       He's at a place in his life where he can just keep doing blockbusters and be perfectly fine with it.

   29. JRJoe Rogan2:14

       Mm-hmm.

   30. MKMark Kerr2:14

       There's, there is, uh, uh, I mean, he says it himself, there's always a place for that. There's always gonna be a place for blockbuster movies, and, and for that. But he needed to do something different.
2. 3:21 – 4:47

   Watching your life on screen: Venice premiere as therapy and self-reckoning

   1. MKMark Kerr3:21

      So here's... So here's what was even... So it ve- so I saw a, uh, an 80% complete version of the film in, in January of this year, and then, um, and then the first time I see a complete version of it was in Venice. And so I'm in Venice, and there's Benny on my right, and there's DJ on my left, and there's Emily next to, uh, DJ. In the last scene of the movie, right? That intensity of that scene, I- I'm just telling you, it was like, uh, I, I said it was therapy for me.

   2. JRJoe Rogan3:56

      Mm.

   3. MKMark Kerr3:56

      'Cause I think for the first time, I could actually, I could actually see my f- part in it. Like, I could see my part how fucking hard I was on the people around me. You know, how just singularly driven I was to accomplish something at, at all cost. And the person that paid it the most was Dawn. She paid a heavy price, you know? And you know anybody that's successful, you know, for me, I was trying to raise everybody up, you know, everybody around me. And it was just this selfish endeavor, and I could see it in those moments. I could see it in what, who DJ was, uh, you know, and who Emily was, and the intensity of that is like, "Fuck."

   4. JRJoe Rogan4:37

      Well, it's such a crazy task to try to be an elite MMA fighter at a time where th- there was no, no one even knew what it was.

   5. MKMark Kerr4:46

      No. Mm-mm.

3. 4:47 – 6:40

   Early UFC era and the birth of MMA: Joe’s 1997 memories and the “best style” question

   1. JRJoe Rogan4:47

      I mean, you, when you, first, uh, when I met you in '97, there's a crazy photo of us together.

   2. MKMark Kerr4:52

      Yeah, I saw that. (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan4:55

      Dude, '97, that's like 30 years ago almost. Isn't that nuts?

   4. MKMark Kerr4:58

      It's g- so this is what's fucking crazy. So trying to describe what I did back then, like people, w- their jaws would hang open.

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:06

      Right.

   6. MKMark Kerr5:07

      They would go, "You do what?"

   7. JRJoe Rogan5:08

      Like, why would you do that? That's awesome.

   8. MKMark Kerr5:11

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan5:11

      Look at that. (laughs)

   10. MKMark Kerr5:12

       Oh my God. (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan5:12

       1997, dude. That's so crazy.

   12. MKMark Kerr5:15

       Oh my God.

   13. JRJoe Rogan5:17

       So crazy.

   14. MKMark Kerr5:18

       Oh my God.

   15. JRJoe Rogan5:19

       So much time ago.

   16. MKMark Kerr5:19

       Were they even paying you back then?

   17. JRJoe Rogan5:21

       A little bit. They paid me a little bit.

   18. MKMark Kerr5:23

       Oh my God.

   19. JRJoe Rogan5:23

       Uh, it wasn't a lot of money, but it was, for me, it was just for fun. It was like, uh, I was a f- giant fan of the sport, and what happened was, Campbell McLaren, do you remember Campbell?

   20. MKMark Kerr5:32

       Yeah, yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan5:32

       Um-

   22. MKMark Kerr5:33

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan5:33

       ... he, he was good friends with my manager, Jeff, and, uh, they were just talking, and he said, "Uh, we need a guy to do backstage interviews, uh, post-fight interviews."

   24. MKMark Kerr5:43

       Yes.

   25. JRJoe Rogan5:43

       And he goes, "Joe really loves this sport." He's like, "Really?" He goes like, "Oh yeah, he follows all the fights in Japan."

   26. MKMark Kerr5:49

       Oh my God.

   27. JRJoe Rogan5:49

       "And he's like..." And so for me, it was just fun. I mean, it wa- it wasn't, it was actually costing me money, which is why I wound up quitting.

   28. MKMark Kerr5:56

       (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan5:57

       Because I quit, and I did it for like a year and a half, two years maybe.And then in '98, I was like, "I can't do this anymore. I'm just ... It's just actually costing me money." And so then, when I, um, started doing Fear Factor, that's when Zuffa bought it-

   30. MKMark Kerr6:09

       Yeah.
4. 6:40 – 9:59

   Why wrestling rules MMA: control, pace, cardio, and sustained attacks

   1. MKMark Kerr6:40

      That was ... So part of my first fights in Brazil, I was still, uh, brainwashed by the idea that, "Oh, shit, he's seven foot tall or 6'9", he's the toughest dude in the room."

   2. JRJoe Rogan6:51

      Right.

   3. MKMark Kerr6:52

      'Cause y- 'cause y- I- 'cause that's how I grew up, right?

   4. JRJoe Rogan6:54

      Right.

   5. MKMark Kerr6:54

      Or ten-degree black belt, same thing.

   6. JRJoe Rogan6:56

      Right, right, right.

   7. MKMark Kerr6:56

      "Oh, no, no, (laughs) no. Don't mess with him."

   8. JRJoe Rogan6:58

      Yeah.

   9. MKMark Kerr6:59

      And in one where, where that first time I fought, I was still under the delusion that that was the truth.

   10. JRJoe Rogan7:06

       Mm-hmm.

   11. MKMark Kerr7:07

       And so my trainer kept going, "Oh, trust me, you're gonna, you're gonna do fine. Trust me, you're gonna do fine." (laughs) And it's just like, he understood what, what, what I was as a wrestler-

   12. JRJoe Rogan7:18

       Mm-hmm.

   13. MKMark Kerr7:18

       ... you know, that I can impose ... Like, this is to tell you, the def- best definition I've ever had for a wrestler is, I can hold a grown-ass man where he doesn't wanna be held for as long as I wanna hold him there, and he can't do a fucking thing about it.

   14. JRJoe Rogan7:30

       Exactly.

   15. MKMark Kerr7:30

       That's a wrestler.

   16. JRJoe Rogan7:31

       And you can dictate where the fight-

   17. MKMark Kerr7:33

       Yep.

   18. JRJoe Rogan7:33

       ... takes place, always. So if you become a wrestler like Chuck Liddell-

   19. MKMark Kerr7:36

       Yep.

   20. JRJoe Rogan7:36

       ... then you say, "No, no, no, you can't take me down."

   21. MKMark Kerr7:39

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JRJoe Rogan7:39

       "So I'm just gonna beat the fuck outta you-

   23. MKMark Kerr7:41

       Yep.

   24. JRJoe Rogan7:41

       ... standing, and there's nothing you can do about it."

   25. MKMark Kerr7:43

       Not, not a single thing.

   26. JRJoe Rogan7:44

       Yeah. It's the most important skill.

   27. MKMark Kerr7:46

       Oh my God, it's foundational-

   28. JRJoe Rogan7:47

       Foundational.

   29. MKMark Kerr7:48

       ... and, and that's why there's so much suc- success for, for the d- um ... I g- I'm gonna blank on the names, but, uh, the, the wrestlers are ... It's a resurgence of, like, really what a foundational piece it is-

   30. JRJoe Rogan8:04

       Yeah.
5. 9:59 – 15:21

   Steroids, PRIDE culture, and the wild west of contracts and “drug testing”

   1. JRJoe Rogan9:59

      Well, I remember when you came along and when Coleman came along. All of a sudden, everybody's like, "I gotta get on steroids." (laughs)

   2. MKMark Kerr10:05

      Yeah. Oh my God, yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan10:06

      But it's like, "I gotta get bigger."

   4. MKMark Kerr10:08

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan10:08

      "I gotta get bigger."

   6. MKMark Kerr10:09

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan10:09

      That's when Vitor got up to, like, 240 pounds.

   8. MKMark Kerr10:10

      Oh my God, he was big. He was big.

   9. JRJoe Rogan10:12

      He got way too big for his frame. I mean, you're talking about a guy who eventually wound up fighting at 185.

   10. MKMark Kerr10:17

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan10:17

       Right?

   12. MKMark Kerr10:17

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan10:17

       I mean, he finished his career up at 85, and he was there at 240 when he fought Randy the first time-

   14. MKMark Kerr10:23

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan10:24

       ... which was bananas.

   16. MKMark Kerr10:25

       So that night was my last UFC. That was UFC 15.

   17. JRJoe Rogan10:29

       Oh, wow.

   18. MKMark Kerr10:31

       And that's when Randy beat Vitor.

   19. JRJoe Rogan10:33

       Mm-hmm.

   20. MKMark Kerr10:34

       And it was one of those where I'm like, "Oh, just wait." I kn- it's 'cause I know what Randy is.

   21. JRJoe Rogan10:39

       Right.

   22. MKMark Kerr10:39

       Randy's cardio.

   23. JRJoe Rogan10:40

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MKMark Kerr10:40

       Randy-o's like, he can take it, and he ... It was one of those things where I was like, "I don't think Victor's gonna win."

   25. JRJoe Rogan10:47

       Right.

   26. MKMark Kerr10:47

       It's just that-

   27. JRJoe Rogan10:47

       And that's what we called him-

   28. MKMark Kerr10:48

       ... it's styles.

   29. JRJoe Rogan10:48

       ... back then. His name was Victor.

   30. MKMark Kerr10:49

       Yeah, Victor.
6. 15:21 – 37:29

   Authenticity obsession: rebuilding 1990s MMA sets, props, and PRIDE weirdness

   1. MKMark Kerr15:21

      Yo, uh, i- so, you know, that was a huge part from the beginning of this when, when DJ and I, DJ and I talked back in 2019, is just the, like, the trust factor.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:33

      You guys started talking about this in 2019?

   3. MKMark Kerr15:35

      Yeah, in 2019, yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:35

      Wow.

   5. MKMark Kerr15:36

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:36

      Six fucking years.

   7. MKMark Kerr15:37

      Yeah. Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:38

      Wow.

   9. MKMark Kerr15:39

      Here's what's crazy. So, so he says, "Hey, you know, we're gonna move forward with this." And, and m- I, so for me, I hadn't even thought about any of this. Like, it being a movie, it, he wants to play me in a movie, and he goes, "I'm gonna make the announcement, Madison Square Garden at the BMF Belt." He goes, this, we had this beautiful conversation, and it was just like this, "Do you trust me?" And it was like, "Yeah. Yeah, I do."

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:09

       He's a fucking great dude.

   11. MKMark Kerr16:10

       Oh, my God, solid, he's... By the way, he says, "Say hi." He left me a great message on the way over here. (laughs) I was listening to him, man. He's just, he's, he's a rare human being.

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:19

       He is. I'm gonna, I'm gonna call him after this just to tell him what a fucking amazing job he did, 'cause I, well, I wanted to watch it right before I saw you.

   13. MKMark Kerr16:27

       Okay.

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:27

       So I watched it today, and I was like, "God damn, this is a good movie, man." And I just, I was just blown away by how well he captured the chaos of the Pride organization, all the, the weirdness of the contract negotiations, everything.

   15. MKMark Kerr16:43

       Off, uh, so, so Benny from the beginning said, "The only way we're gonna be able to do this is have that authenticity," to the point where I sent them watches, rings, necklaces, posters, everything I could find picture-wise, everything, to their props and production.

   16. JRJoe Rogan17:05

       Oh, wow.

   17. MKMark Kerr17:05

       And they reproduced everything.

   18. JRJoe Rogan17:08

       Oh, wow.

   19. MKMark Kerr17:10

       So, Joe, and when I'm, w- I mean, like, when I went up to Vancouver, like, and walked into some of these sets, like, literally going, "Holy fucking shit, man."

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:21

       (laughs) Did it flash back?

   21. MKMark Kerr17:22

       Oh, my God, like, like, you'd walk into a room and there'd, there'd be from one corner all the way to the other on the wall just pictures of me in my house, in my this, and this outfit, and this, and these in my house, and this, and, and then production saying, "Okay, was this accurate? How did this..." It was this, it was this unbelievable, painstaking... They rebuilt my life 25 years ago.

   22. JRJoe Rogan17:46

       Wow.

   23. MKMark Kerr17:46

       So when DJ got into charac- got into me, he actually was, that was... He was me.

   24. JRJoe Rogan17:52

       Wow.

   25. MKMark Kerr17:54

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan17:54

       It seemed like it, man. I mean, it really did because, you know, it's just, it- it's hard when a guy's so famous to pretend that he's someone else.

   27. MKMark Kerr18:04

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan18:05

       He has to-

   29. MKMark Kerr18:05

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan18:05

       ... like, be really good to get you convinced, and I was all in. I was all in.
7. 37:29 – 41:14

   PRIDE vs UFC: Kerr’s contract dispute, almost fighting Royce Gracie, and Japan’s hidden operators

   1. JRJoe Rogan37:29

      So what was, what was the Pride experience like? So you, you had fought in the UFC, and then did, did you have a contract that expired? Like, what happened?

   2. MKMark Kerr37:40

      So, oh boy, this is the... So, I signed a three-fight tournament deal with the UFC. I did '14 and '15, and I still had one, uh, tournament obligation on the contract. Um, so after '15, the Japanese had seen enough footage, and I got contacted by Pride. And they're like, "Hey, we wanna fly you over. We want to, um, we wanna have, uh, you as a key piece to build this organization." So I'm like, "Okay." So they fly me first class over, first class hotel. I meet with, um, I meet with a guy named Mr. Ishizaka, who, uh, his real name is Kim Duk Soo. He's a Korean guy. And, uh, the, um, Mr. Ishii, who owned K-1...

   3. JRJoe Rogan38:28

      Wait a minute. A Korean dude was pretending to be Japanese?

   4. MKMark Kerr38:30

      You had to have a Japanese name.

   5. JRJoe Rogan38:32

      Whoa.

   6. MKMark Kerr38:33

      You couldn't do business in Japan without a Japanese name.

   7. JRJoe Rogan38:37

      That's crazy. So he just changed his name?

   8. MKMark Kerr38:39

      He signed all of his documents, signed all of his documents, legal documents, Kim Duk Soo.

   9. JRJoe Rogan38:44

      Wow.

   10. MKMark Kerr38:44

       But every single person called him Mr. Ishizaka.

   11. JRJoe Rogan38:47

       Wow.

   12. MKMark Kerr38:48

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan38:49

       So he had to learn Japan- Japanese, he had to-

   14. MKMark Kerr38:51

       Yeah. And it's still with an accent 'cause he spoke Korean too.

   15. JRJoe Rogan38:55

       Ah. (laughs)

   16. MKMark Kerr38:56

       So it's just one of those (Joe laughs) where understanding, like, the, the culture back then just-

   17. JRJoe Rogan39:00

       Wow.

   18. MKMark Kerr39:00

       ... it was still stuck, you know, and hadn't really progressed.

   19. JRJoe Rogan39:05

       Wow.

   20. MKMark Kerr39:05

       Um, so Mr. Ishii owned K-1, and Mr. Ishizaka started Pride. And it was called KRS at the beginning, before turning into Dream Stage.

   21. JRJoe Rogan39:14

       Oh.

   22. MKMark Kerr39:15

       And so here's, here's where it gets a little sticky. So, um, I go over there. I take, uh... For Pride 2, it's supposed to be me and Royce Gracie. Him and I... Uh, there's still fight posters that I've signed of him and I facing off with each other, signed the contract to fight for way more money than was being probably paid for the, uh, in the UFC. And, um, when I get back to the States, I get served with, uh, I get served with papers to appear in court in New York City, the UFC suing me. Um, it's when Bob Meyerwitz still owned it-

   23. JRJoe Rogan39:48

       Hmm.

   24. MKMark Kerr39:48

       ... and Art Davis was involved. And so they were suing me for breach of contract. And it was, like, one of those things where I was like, "Okay. I didn't..." You know, like, one of those experiences where I was like, "Oh, shit." You know, and the Japanese said, "Okay, we still want you. You need to sort this out." So it took, uh, it took four months, five months to sort out the differences between what the UFC needed and if they were gonna let me go and all this other stuff. In that timeframe, Royce got hurt. And so Royce had to step out, and they put, uh, Branko Cigic in there, and I ended up fighting Branko in Pride 2.

   25. JRJoe Rogan40:24

       Oh, wow.

   26. MKMark Kerr40:25

       Yeah. So if everything, if, if everything would've went as everything, I would've fought Royce Gracie in the Tokyo Dome.

   27. JRJoe Rogan40:32

       (exhales)

   28. MKMark Kerr40:33

       Him in a main event, me at-

   29. JRJoe Rogan40:35

       Wow.

   30. MKMark Kerr40:35

       ... my peak, Royce still in his prime.
8. 41:14 – 51:19

   Heavyweight realities: weight, overtraining, nerves, and the Fujita hypoglycemic crash

   1. JRJoe Rogan41:14

      What were you at your heaviest?

   2. MKMark Kerr41:17

      280, 285.

   3. JRJoe Rogan41:19

      Geez.

   4. MKMark Kerr41:20

      Like, 6% body fat.

   5. JRJoe Rogan41:21

      Whoa.

   6. MKMark Kerr41:22

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan41:23

      That's hard to breathe. (laughs)

   8. MKMark Kerr41:26

      Oh, it's brutal. Like if I didn't-

   9. JRJoe Rogan41:27

      Do you get so much muscle?

   10. MKMark Kerr41:27

       If I didn't fucking get ahold of you-

   11. JRJoe Rogan41:28

       Right.

   12. MKMark Kerr41:28

       ... and fucking squeeze the life out of you in the first, like, couple minutes-

   13. JRJoe Rogan41:31

       Yeah.

   14. MKMark Kerr41:31

       ... I was fucked. I was completely fucked, you know.

   15. JRJoe Rogan41:34

       Yeah. Well, that was kinda the case with Coleman as well, like when-

   16. MKMark Kerr41:37

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan41:37

       ... when he was really, really big.

   18. MKMark Kerr41:38

       I was in the corner-

   19. JRJoe Rogan41:39

       Battling the hell.

   20. MKMark Kerr41:39

       ... when he lost... When, I was cornering him when he lost to Maurice Smith.

   21. JRJoe Rogan41:43

       Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I was there for that one.

   22. MKMark Kerr41:46

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan41:46

       That was, that was, uh, a real game-changer.

   24. MKMark Kerr41:50

       Oh, that changed the narrative for everything.

   25. JRJoe Rogan41:52

       'Cause Maurice, what Maurice brought to the game was... Maurice was training with Frank Shamrock at the time.

   26. MKMark Kerr41:57

       Yep.

   27. JRJoe Rogan41:57

       And so he had extreme cardio. He was doing a lot of swimming, he was running hills.

   28. MKMark Kerr42:02

       Yep.

   29. JRJoe Rogan42:02

       I mean, he was really cardiovascularily at an elite level for an MMA-

   30. MKMark Kerr42:07

       Yep.
9. 51:19 – 56:08

   MMA’s modern leap: technique explosion, GOAT debates, and the “new gear” phenomenon

   1. JRJoe Rogan51:19

      It's just... It's such a crazy sport to watch that, you know, from 1994 to 2025, it's almost unrecognizable, the difference in the gap.

   2. MKMark Kerr51:31

      You can't, you can't. Like, like there was a period of time where I couldn't, I couldn't watch, uh, I didn't watch the UFC probably about like seven, eight, nine years. And, uh, over the last five, six years I've watched it, uh, almost religiously, right? And just realizing the fighters today, oh my God, man, they're, they hit a level and it's that, it's that mutation. It's like this first generation-

   3. JRJoe Rogan51:56

      Mm-hmm.

   4. MKMark Kerr51:56

      ... second generation.

   5. JRJoe Rogan51:56

      Mm-hmm. Yes.

   6. MKMark Kerr51:57

      And they're advancing so fast that you're looking at these new fight... You're like, where... Like, it's such a unique set of skills to do this.

   7. JRJoe Rogan52:07

      Mm-hmm.

   8. MKMark Kerr52:07

      Incredible set of skills, unique to any other sport in the world.

   9. JRJoe Rogan52:12

      And it's j- and it's also you're really fighting three different sports as one sport.

   10. MKMark Kerr52:17

       Yeah. Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan52:17

       Which is really nuts. You're fighting grappling, you're fighting jujitsu-

   12. MKMark Kerr52:21

       Jujitsu and striking.

   13. JRJoe Rogan52:22

       ... and you're fighting striking all together.

   14. MKMark Kerr52:23

       Yeah. And-

   15. JRJoe Rogan52:23

       In one sport.

   16. MKMark Kerr52:24

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan52:24

       And it's like, wow.

   18. MKMark Kerr52:25

       It's like playing soccer, football-

   19. JRJoe Rogan52:27

       Yeah.

   20. MKMark Kerr52:27

       ... and baseball at the same time. (laughs) It's like, how the fuck would you do that?

   21. JRJoe Rogan52:30

       Yeah, while getting kicked.

   22. MKMark Kerr52:32

       While getting kicked. (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan52:34

       While getting kicked and punched and elbowed. It's is, uh... But without guys like you, it would have never gotten here because if there weren't people that were willing to fight for very little money, travel overseas, have these crazy events and, you know, and beat your body up and do what you did and what Coleman did and a lot of those guys did in the beginning, without you guys, there's-

   24. MKMark Kerr52:58

       Oh, I appreciate that.

   25. JRJoe Rogan52:58

       There is no UFC today.

   26. MKMark Kerr53:00

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan53:00

       It's just not, it's not the same.

   28. MKMark Kerr53:01

       It was, you know, one... Like being in the Hall of Fame and being in the Pioneer Wing and understanding that, um... Like I said to myself, you know, even if I advance the sport, you know, this much, it needed this much at the time to get to where it is today, right?

   29. JRJoe Rogan53:17

       Mm-hmm.

   30. MKMark Kerr53:18

       Like Coleman advanced the sport this much.
10. 56:08 – 1:46:51

    Money, careers, and building fighters: PRIDE paydays, cash briefcases, and UFC’s growth pains

    1. JRJoe Rogan56:08

       I know some shit about fighting. But to me, it was like... It was, uh, Eddie Bravo and I, when we were kids, when we were young, young fellas, when we, we were hanging around, working out, we would said to ourselves, like, "You know what this sport needs? Some crazy billionaires who love the sport that're just gonna dump a bunch of money." 'Cause we knew at the time, we were like, "This is the most ex- exciting sport in the world, right?"

    2. MKMark Kerr56:30

       Yeah, yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan56:30

       So, all it needs is for these really rich guys to be fans of the sport. And it's almost like it manifested itself, 'cause that's what happened. The Fertittas came along-

    4. MKMark Kerr56:40

       Yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan56:40

       ... and they were just really rich guys who loved the sport, and they took a crazy chance.

    6. MKMark Kerr56:46

       Yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan56:46

       They were $40 million in the hole.

    8. MKMark Kerr56:48

       In debt, yeah. Oh my God.

    9. JRJoe Rogan56:49

       $40 million in the hole on the UFC, and it was just losing money, losing money. And they just hung in there, year after year-

    10. MKMark Kerr56:55

        God.

    11. JRJoe Rogan56:55

        ... after year, until they were almost ready to fucking sell, and then they decided to go forward with The Ultimate Fighter.

    12. MKMark Kerr57:02

        That's the game changer.

    13. JRJoe Rogan57:03

        That was it.

    14. MKMark Kerr57:04

        That person-

    15. JRJoe Rogan57:04

        2005.

    16. MKMark Kerr57:04

        That personalized it.

    17. JRJoe Rogan57:06

        Yes, but-

    18. MKMark Kerr57:06

        That, that personalized it.

    19. JRJoe Rogan57:07

        Well, people got to see it on Spike TV, and then it became... The fights were so wild that people were calling their friends-

    20. MKMark Kerr57:16

        Yeah.

    21. JRJoe Rogan57:16

        ... and they were saying, "You gotta watch this." So as the, the show is on... And this is, like, before social media-

    22. MKMark Kerr57:22

        Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan57:22

        ... was really a thing.

    24. MKMark Kerr57:23

        All that, yeah, yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan57:24

        So as the fight was on, the, uh, the ratings kept going up and up and up and up, and it would... Like, Spike TV was like, "Holy shit-"

    26. MKMark Kerr57:31

        Shit, they're onto something.

    27. JRJoe Rogan57:32

        "... we got a fucking hit."

    28. MKMark Kerr57:32

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan57:32

        "We got a hit."

    30. MKMark Kerr57:33

        Yeah.

Episode duration: 3:03:06