CHAPTERS
- 0:12 – 1:57
CIA posting in Athens: terrorist groups, security spending, and informal “don’t kill Greeks” deal
Joe and John start with Kiriakou’s overseas CIA work, including replacing Mike Baker in Athens. He explains why Athens was uniquely dangerous at the time, with multiple active militant groups and a permissive arrangement that tolerated attacks so long as Greeks weren’t targeted.
- •Kiriakou replaces Mike Baker in Athens and describes the station environment
- •Athens had exceptionally high U.S. security spending—more than Beirut
- •Greek groups like 17 November and Popular Revolutionary Struggle targeted Americans
- •Foreign groups (Abu Nidal, PFLP factions, etc.) operated there as well
- •Claimed informal Greek government deal: groups left alone if they didn’t kill Greeks
- 1:57 – 3:33
Post‑9/11 Pakistan: counterterrorism role and the hunt for high-value al‑Qaeda figures
Kiriakou outlines his role running counterterrorism operations in Pakistan after 9/11. He describes the priority target list and the operational push to capture major al‑Qaeda leaders moving between Afghanistan and Pakistan.
- •13 years into CIA by the time he becomes CT lead in Pakistan
- •Mission focus: locate/capture al‑Qaeda leaders and hold them for trial (initial concept)
- •High priority targets include bin Laden, Zawahiri, Abu Zubaydah, and KSM (then unknown)
- •Operational context: al‑Qaeda movement driven by U.S. bombing in Afghanistan
- •Six-week track-and-capture effort culminating in Abu Zubaydah’s capture
- 3:33 – 5:01
Rendition logistics and “need-to-know”: handing off Abu Zubaydah to a black-site pipeline
He describes transporting Abu Zubaydah and the rigid compartmentalization around where detainees were taken. A tense, almost darkly comic exchange highlights how “need to know” governed even basic questions between colleagues.
- •Abu Zubaydah is captured; headquarters orders him held for pickup
- •Kiriakou isn’t cleared for the detainee’s destination or the larger plan
- •Plane transfer with masked personnel; even the receiving team isn’t told who the detainee is
- •Illustration of strict compartmentalization: both sides deny each other key info
- •Ethos: transport/hand-off only—no personal engagement with detainees
- 5:01 – 10:17
The moment he learns about “Enhanced Interrogation”: refusal, moral line, and career blowback
Back at headquarters, Kiriakou is asked to be certified in “enhanced interrogation techniques,” a term he says he’d never heard before. After seeking advice from a senior officer who calls it torture, he refuses—then faces retaliation inside the agency.
- •Approached casually in CIA cafeteria about EIT certification (May 2002)
- •Senior advisor warns it’s torture, predicts abuse, death, and scapegoating
- •Kiriakou refuses on moral/legal grounds
- •Claims he’s passed over for promotion for “lack of commitment” after refusing
- •Learns he’s labeled “the human rights guy” internally
- 10:17 – 12:04
What the techniques were: waterboarding, cold cell, sleep deprivation—and detainee deaths
Kiriakou details specific methods and argues some crossed clearly into torture. He describes hypothermia deaths, medical involvement during waterboarding, and how sleep deprivation was operationalized to extreme lengths.
- •EIT list ranges from coercive-but-not-torture to severe methods
- •Cold cell: naked detainee chained to ceiling bolt, 50°F cell, hourly ice-water dumping
- •At least two deaths attributed to hypothermia (as acknowledged by the agency, per Kiriakou)
- •Doctor revives Abu Zubaydah after heart stops during waterboarding to continue interrogation
- •Sleep deprivation up to 12 days using restraints, bright lights, and loud music
- 12:04 – 21:40
MKUltra echoes: drugs, destroyed records, and the limits of what can be proven
The conversation shifts to historic CIA experimentation—how drug-based interrogation ideas resurfaced and how much documentation was destroyed. Kiriakou connects the legacy of MKUltra to persistent uncertainty about what actually happened and what was learned.
- •Use of drugs explored later (truth-serum concepts, relaxation drugs like gabapentin)
- •Church Committee era leads to document destruction—only a fraction survives
- •Examples and lore: LSD work over decades, alleged public dosing experiments
- •Operation Midnight Climax: luring men, dosing with LSD, and interrogating them
- •Broader theme: institutional incentive to destroy evidence to avoid accountability
- 21:40 – 29:17
Did torture work? FBI rapport-based interrogation vs. CIA coercion and the primacy tug-of-war
Kiriakou argues the torture program was ineffective, contrasting it with FBI interrogation methods. Using Abu Zubaydah as the case study, he describes how actionable intelligence came through rapport—and how CIA takeovers and coercion shut information down.
- •Claims torture produced no actionable intelligence, while FBI methods did
- •Ali Soufan’s rapport approach yields actionable intel and organizational mapping
- •Information leads to arrests in Germany and reveals Mukhtar = Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
- •CIA seeks primacy; FBI withdraws personnel; CIA begins coercive program within hours
- •Coercion triggers detainee silence and forces FBI months-long effort to rebuild cooperation
- 29:17 – 36:05
Going public and becoming the target: ABC interview, Bush denials, and Brennan/Holder escalation
Kiriakou recounts how an ABC News call led him to publicly state that the CIA tortured detainees and that it was approved at the highest level. After an initial FBI declination, he says the Obama administration—driven by John Brennan—revived the case aggressively.
- •ABC’s Brian Ross tells him a source claims Kiriakou tortured Abu Zubaydah; he denies it
- •Bush repeatedly denies torture publicly; later suggests a “rogue officer” narrative
- •Kiriakou’s ABC interview: CIA tortured; it was official policy; president approved it
- •CIA files a crimes report; FBI investigates then initially declines prosecution
- •Kiriakou alleges Brennan pressures Holder to charge him anyway and “make him defend himself”
- 36:05 – 42:33
Why Brennan mattered: career rise, internal rivalries, and the claimed vendetta
Kiriakou offers a long account of John Brennan’s career trajectory and why he believes Brennan personally targeted him. He describes Brennan’s patrons, rapid promotions, and tensions inside CIA leadership culture.
- •Kiriakou claims longstanding dislike and distrust between them
- •Story of Brennan’s conflict with analyst-manager Martha Kessler and later reversal of fortunes
- •Brennan’s relationship with George Tenet and subsequent career boosts
- •Brennan’s elevation to senior CIA leadership despite being an analyst, not an operator (per Kiriakou)
- •Kiriakou frames later prosecution as political retaliation tied to torture and leaks
- 42:33 – 59:58
The prosecution path: FBI ‘help’ requests, raid, espionage threats, plea pressure, and EDVA reality
Kiriakou describes cooperating with the FBI on an alleged foreign pitch, then later being summoned under the pretext of needing his help—only to discover he was being investigated and his house was being raided. He explains the escalating plea offers, the fear of a hostile jury pool in the Eastern District of Virginia, and why he ultimately accepted a deal.
- •Reports an alleged Japanese intelligence pitch; writes memos and assists FBI repeatedly
- •Later FBI summons turns into interrogation: ‘we’re investigating you’ + simultaneous home raid
- •Charged with multiple felonies; says espionage counts were later dropped after financial ruin
- •Threatened with extreme sentencing leverage; describes plea bargaining pressure
- •Decision pivot: EDVA jury pool dominated by intelligence community contractors (per jury consultant advice)
- 59:58 – 1:02:50
Inside federal prison: gangs, stress, alleged setup attempts, and using media attention as protection
Kiriakou recounts entering low-security federal prison and quickly facing prison politics and threats. He describes alleged attempts to provoke violence, how affiliation dynamics protected him, and how public attention deterred solitary confinement or additional charges.
- •Placed in FCI Loretto (low-medium) instead of expected minimum-security camp
- •Initial gang sorting questions; ends up protected by Italian inmates after brief Aryan association
- •Writes ‘Letter from Loretto’ describing guard abuse and alleged manipulation between inmates
- •Media pickup (HuffPost, CNN interest) changes prison officials’ posture toward him
- •Claims additional attempted setup involving a Taliban spokesman photo-op; says he avoided contact
- 1:02:50 – 1:29:55
Life after release: anger, unemployment, vindication via Senate Torture Report, and the fight for a pardon
After prison, Kiriakou describes financial collapse, employment rejections, and emotional fallout. He recounts the Senate Torture Report as vindication, John McCain’s support, and ongoing efforts to secure a presidential pardon and reinstate his pension.
- •Post-release anger and difficulty reintegrating; claims felon status blocked basic jobs
- •Ex-wife’s advice: keep speaking so his narrative becomes the record
- •Senate Torture Report release confirms key claims (in his view) and triggers public validation
- •McCain-backed attempt to restore pension via NDAA amendment fails after McCain’s illness/death
- •Pardon campaign: letters of support, and note that CIA leadership ‘has no objection’ (per Kiriakou)
- 1:29:55 – 1:49:20
Bigger picture: deep state incentives, FBI stings, January 6 narratives, and legalized domestic propaganda
Joe and Kiriakou broaden the conversation to institutional incentives—careerism, prosecutions, and alleged provocation operations. They also discuss the NDAA change Kiriakou says legalized propagandizing Americans and how that erodes trust in media and government.
- •Kiriakou argues long-tenured bureaucracies can ‘outwait’ presidents (deep state framing)
- •Discussion of FBI sting/entrapment-style cases and incentives to generate arrests
- •January 6: claims about provocateurs, narrative shaping, and disproportionate sentencing
- •NDAA-related claim: legal shift enabling U.S. government propaganda to reach Americans
- •Shared theme: division + information control makes democratic accountability harder
- 1:49:20 – 2:31:05
Geopolitics and influence: ceasefires, Iran/China priorities, AI bot wars, and Israel/AIPAC pressure
The final stretch shifts to current international conflicts and influence campaigns. Kiriakou discusses Iran and Israel dynamics, calls China the larger strategic threat, and then dives into lobbying and intelligence frictions surrounding Israel—plus AI-driven narrative shaping.
- •Ceasefire and regional power politics: Netanyahu incentives and coalition constraints
- •China as top long-term threat: patience, infrastructure advantage, and online disruption tactics
- •AI/bots and narrative manipulation; anecdotes about ChatGPT errors and bot attacks
- •Concerns about Israel’s influence in U.S. politics; AIPAC’s funding and primary challenges
- •CIA–Israeli liaison anecdotes: alleged repeated bugging attempts and recruitment approaches
