CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 0:29
Dubin’s evolving view: the deeper you go, the stranger justice gets
Josh Dubin opens by describing how his work has become less predictable over time: instead of recurring “routine” patterns, he’s seeing increasingly bizarre, hard-to-believe scenarios. Joe frames wrongful conviction work as one of society’s darkest failures because it strips people of freedom, often through misconduct or tunnel vision.
- 0:29 – 5:53
Why people can’t admit fault: from opioids to policing and prosecutions
Dubin links systemic injustice to a broader human problem: refusal to admit wrongdoing. Using examples from congressional testimony around opioids and everyday relationships, he argues that denial and self-justification show up everywhere—especially inside legal institutions.
- 5:53 – 18:59
The Perlmutter DNA sting: a neighbor, a deposition, and vigilante forensics
Dubin recounts the extraordinary Perlmutter case where a neighbor orchestrated a scheme to collect Ike and Laurie Perlmutter’s DNA during a deposition tied to a petty tennis dispute. The collected items were treated like a crime scene and sent to a questionable private lab, setting off years of accusations.
- 18:59 – 32:30
How the accusation snowballed: hate mail, contamination, and a $50M verdict
Dubin lays out how hate mail accusations targeted the neighbor, then boomeranged onto the Perlmutters via flawed DNA interpretation. He explains how contamination and improper reliance on discarded test runs fueled defamation—leading to a major jury verdict and broader lessons about bias in forensic science.
- 32:30 – 50:28
Brooklyn homicide nightmare: the Nelson Cruz case and Scarcella-era corruption
Dubin pivots to a stunning wrongful conviction story: a shooter is allegedly caught “smoking gun” in hand, yet a teenager, Nelson Cruz, is charged and convicted instead. The case is tied to infamous detective Louis Scarcella, with a track record of vacated convictions and coercive, tainted practices.
- 50:28 – 1:06:12
When the system fails again: Alzheimer’s judge, CIU hopes, and killers staying free
Even after a post-conviction hearing exposes key testimony as false, Cruz is denied relief under a judge later revealed to have advanced Alzheimer’s. Dubin explains why even clear exonerations rarely lead to new prosecutions of the true perpetrators, then turns to the broader emotional toll and the reality that innocent people plead guilty just to go home.
- 1:06:12 – 1:13:05
Deportation after 50 years: an Albanian immigrant’s case and ICE incentives
Dubin describes a case at the crossroads of criminal justice and immigration enforcement: a longtime green-card holder faces removal decades after a near–self-defense killing tied to his brother being shot. Rogan argues enforcement targets can push agencies toward easy “numbers,” while Dubin focuses on the human stakes and the pursuit of a pardon to stop deportation.
- 1:13:05 – 1:17:08
Clemency and pardons: politics, “who you know,” and drug-sentence legacies
The conversation expands to the opaque mechanics of executive clemency—how pardons can be inspiring, baffling, or politically driven. Dubin highlights cases backed by public figures and critiques outdated drug-sentencing regimes that keep people incarcerated far beyond any meaningful public-safety rationale.
- 1:17:08 – 1:35:55
Governor DeSantis clemency clash: Michael Giles and mandatory minimums
Dubin recounts a Florida case he calls brutal: Michael Giles received a 25-year mandatory minimum after firing in a chaotic melee, despite strong evidence he was attacked and a spotless prison record. Dubin alleges political gamesmanship in the clemency process and points to evidence of bias in the original prosecutor’s office.
- 1:35:55 – 2:26:53
Marijuana rescheduled to Schedule III: freedom, harm reduction, and propaganda history
After a brief break, Rogan and Dubin react to marijuana being rescheduled and debate what legalization should look like. Rogan argues for informed adult choice and contrasts cannabis harms with legal substances like alcohol and acetaminophen, then traces cannabis prohibition to industrial and political interests plus racialized propaganda.
- 2:26:53 – 2:36:05
From weed to psychedelics: ketamine therapy, DMT/ayahuasca, and non-drug altered states
The discussion moves to psychedelics and mental health, with Dubin sharing that supervised ketamine therapy helped him during a low period. Rogan explains ayahuasca/DMT chemistry and argues altered states can catalyze healing, while both emphasize screening, dose control, and supervision.
- 2:36:05 – 2:42:17
EMDR and trauma work: ‘purging’ pain through structured reprocessing
Dubin details EMDR as a demanding but transformative trauma therapy that required re-entering painful memories in a controlled, patterned way. He relates the process to the “purge” idea in psychedelic healing—suffering as part of resolution—while Rogan adds breathwork and sensory deprivation as parallel approaches.
- 2:42:17 – 2:49:33
Boxing detour: Anthony Joshua vs. Jake Paul, odds, and modern fight promotion
Dubin abruptly pivots to a fight question, prompting Rogan to break down why Joshua is a massive favorite over Jake Paul. They discuss size, experience, the spectacle-driven nature of influencer boxing, and how marketing can reshape combat sports narratives.
- 2:49:33 – 2:50:45
A real-world win: Jelly Roll’s pardon and a hopeful send-off
The episode closes on timely news: Jelly Roll receives a full pardon from Tennessee’s governor, which both hosts celebrate as a tangible example of second chances. They reflect on the emotional power of redemption stories and end with mutual appreciation.
