EVERY SPOKEN WORD
115 min read · 23,443 words- 0:00 – 0:02
Intro
- JRJoe Rogan
[upbeat music]
- 0:02 – 2:32
Paulides’ law-enforcement background and the Yosemite rangers’ tip-off
- JRJoe Rogan
Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night. All day. [upbeat music] David, welcome to the show.
- DPDavid Paulides
Thank you, sir.
- JRJoe Rogan
Pull on up to the microphone. Get it, get that sucker up like a fist from your face. Uh, I first heard about you from that guy, Art Bell, the GOAT.
- DPDavid Paulides
The greatest.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. He was, uh [laughs] I used to love listening to his show, uh, coming home from the Comedy Store. We'd come home at, like, 1:00 in the morning and, "Coast to Coast with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye." It was awesome. And, uh, that's when I, I first, uh, got turned on to your work. So tell everybody, you, uh, you started off in law enforcement, right? That's your background.
- DPDavid Paulides
Correct.
- JRJoe Rogan
How did you get involved in this mystery of people going missing?
- DPDavid Paulides
So I'd already written a couple of books, and I was at Yosemite National Park doing some research on another topic. And two rangers are following me around. And I went back to my room that was at the park, and about an hour and a half later, one of the rangers comes to my room, and he's in plainclothes. And he knocks on my door and he says, "Hey, Dave. I'm Ranger so-and-so. I'm here off duty. I wanna talk to you about some missing people." I said, "Come on in." So we start talking and he says that he knew about me probably [laughs] the way you knew about me. And he says, "I know you're from law enforcement. Somebody look, needs to look into this." About an hour and a half later, his partner shows up at the door, and they said that they've worked at different parks over the years. And while they were working at those parks, there were missing people. And he said, "At the beginning, there was a lot of publicity, a lot of people interested, a lot of activity. And then with time, with, within about 10, 15 days, all of that would end." And he said, "We got concerned, and we did a Freedom of Information Act against our own agency to get the reports, and we couldn't get the reports. And then we did a Freedom of Information Act request on other cases, and we couldn't get the reports. And we got concerned because after that initial 10, 14-day period of searching is all over, there's nothing else that happens. That's it." And he said, "Somebody ought to look into this, because there's a lot of people missing, and the Parks Service doesn't talk about it."
- 2:32 – 5:06
Why disappearances get written off: terrain, scavengers, and what should remain
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, what was he assuming? Was he assuming something nefarious was going on, or was he s- assuming that it was, uh, all a lack of commitment to finding the bodies? 'Cause you gotta assume most people after 14 days lost in the woods are probably gonna die.
- DPDavid Paulides
I think all the above. He thought that there were too many people b- going missing, there wasn't enough follow-up being done, and nobody k- seemed to care.
- JRJoe Rogan
So f- if you were being pragmatic, and you weren't, like, diving into mysteries and the stuff that I like, the fun stuff, you would say, "Well, they don't have any resources. You know, there's not enough people to go looking. When you think about the actual square miles that you would have to cover to find a body, and then also the reality of predators and all these different animals that are gonna eat bodies. If a body's there, there's not gonna be much left." You've spent, obviously you've spent time in the woods. Have you ever seen a dead mountain lion?
- DPDavid Paulides
No. I've never seen-
- JRJoe Rogan
Me neither
- DPDavid Paulides
... I've never seen a dead bear.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, I've only seen dead bears because I was hunting. I've never seen a dead bear. Well, no, that's not true. No, I did, we did find one. But I think, um, it's very rare, uh, but that one was recently dead. He was killed by another bear. I think most of the time, when you find, uh, dead animals, it's very recent. And if an animal's dead and it's left alone in the woods, within a certain amount of time, something's gonna eat it. Everything's gonna eat it, including the bones. There's almost nothing left by the time they get done with it.
- DPDavid Paulides
100%.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DPDavid Paulides
But one thing I learned from being around rangers in all these years now is that there's few things that belong to us when, that we go into the woods with that are always gonna be there. Namely our shoes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Belt buckles.
- DPDavid Paulides
Belt buckles, leather anything, um, the rubber waistband of your underwear. These kind of things stay, stay forever. A rifle, a pistol.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DPDavid Paulides
A bow. And those things you're gonna find. But getting back to the point of these guys, there were too many people going missing in a short period of time that no one seemed to care about. That was really their main focus.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DPDavid Paulides
And somebody ought to look into it. Somebody ought to start collecting data. Nobody did. And maybe somebody from the outside, they're the inside, maybe somebody from the outside would have more luck putting this all together th- rather than them. That was kind of the gist of it.
- 5:06 – 10:08
The ‘amnesia relocation’ cases: from ski trips to truck-driver mysteries
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, there's some cases that are just flat-out weird. Like, some cases, like, people go missing, they die, animals eat them, that's a wrap. That makes sense to me. But there's a few cases, and one of 'em you covered was a guy, I believe he was from Canada, that went skiing in New York. And he went missing, and then he showed up 2,500 miles later in California with his ski clothes on, and he didn't know what happened.
- DPDavid Paulides
Oh, yeah. Yeah. That was, uh, he was a fireman from, I think, Toronto, that went with a bunch of friends to New York on, like, a weekend ski trip. And the guys were all getting together at the end of the day to leave, and they couldn't find him. He says he wakes up on a truck traveling from, like, Reno to Sacramento.Woke up in the back of a truck? No, sitting in the front seat. And he said that he was, as he wakes up, he, he's talking. It's not like he was asleep and woke up. It's like his mind suddenly flashed open, "Hey, you're alive now. You can keep talking." And he goes, "But I was talking to the driver, and we're traveling." The driver drops him off at Sacramento Airport. He doesn't remember anything, but he remembers his home phone number. He calls his wife in Toronto, and she goes, "Hey, everyone's searching for you, thinking you're still at the ski resort." And he go- he has all the ski clothes on.
- JRJoe Rogan
How many days later?
- DPDavid Paulides
I don't remember. But even he doesn't make sense of it. He doesn't know how he got in the truck. The truck driver left. Nobody knows who the truck driver was. That was kind of the, the whole story. There wasn't a lot.
- JRJoe Rogan
So he didn't ask the truck driver, "Hey, where'd you pick me up?"
- DPDavid Paulides
I think he was embarrassed.
- JRJoe Rogan
Just embarrassed that he was in the truck and doesn't remember how he got in there?
- DPDavid Paulides
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay, so he didn't say anything. And did he have any memories from skiing to r- like, did he ever do, like, regressive hypnosis or anything?
- DPDavid Paulides
If he did, it never went public.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm. Was that the weirdest one?
- DPDavid Paulides
I don't know. There's, there's weirder ones.
- JRJoe Rogan
What's the, what's the weirdest one you heard of?
- DPDavid Paulides
[sighs] The strangest disappearance story. There's a lot of people that disappear that don't have a memory, and if you look back and you study missing people, those people historically have been abducted. And there's something about that abduction experience where they can take away part of your mind.
- JRJoe Rogan
You think alien abduction, that's what you're saying?
- DPDavid Paulides
Alien entity.
- JRJoe Rogan
Something.
- DPDavid Paulides
Some, some type of-
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay
- DPDavid Paulides
... foreign-
- JRJoe Rogan
Just wanna be clear, we're not talking about, like, like, a bad person abducting a person.
- DPDavid Paulides
No. No.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- DPDavid Paulides
We're talking about some kind of entity.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- DPDavid Paulides
And they take away part of that mind where they were probably doing something to you that they don't want you to know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DPDavid Paulides
And there's a lot of those. There's a whole segment of people that I have chronicled that were truck drivers who have amnesia, who were found in conditions that were very strange. There was a truck driver in the Midwest where, salt of the earth kind of guy, drove, drove independently, wife and a couple kids. He picks up a load. I wanna s- I wanna say it was pigs. And he's, his truck is found, like, outside of Indiana on a little two-lane highway, stopped on the side of the road. He's not anywhere to be found, but his coat is found in a ditch on the other side of the other lane. So the sheriff comes out. They do a huge search, flyovers, canines. Goes on for, like, four or five days. Nothing. Week and a half later, his body is found in that field, in the spot where they had searched all that time. Impossible to miss. Coroner says he's been dead for two weeks. Well, the sheriff can't make sense of that because he searched that with dogs and people. That guy should've been there. But Joe, I have 1,500 of those cases where canines were brought in, multiple canine teams, multiple searches, and people were not found. And the point I try to make about this is that it's not that the searchers are inept, because I don't believe that, and I don't believe that the canines fail multiple, multiple times, 'cause I don't believe that can happen. I don't believe they were there when they were searching. They were left there later on.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so you've been, you've been into this for a long time, right? What was the first case that you looked into that got you thinking something weird's going on?
- 10:08 – 14:52
Stacy Arras and the FOIA wall: the case that galvanized him
- DPDavid Paulides
Probably would've been at Yosemite, and there was a girl named Stacy Arras. And she, just weirdly, she grew up, like, five miles from me. I, I grew up in a little city, Cupertino, California. She grew up in Saratoga, the next town over. She went with her dad on a trip by horse, sponsored by a contractor in the park at Yosemite, and they were gonna ride into this place called the High Sierra Camp, her and her dad and five other people. And they get, uh, escorted in by a cowboy contractor, and they come to these cabins. And her dad's an older guy. They get to the cabin, and she says, "Hey, Dad, I wanna go over here to the point. I wanna take some pictures." She brings her camera. And one of the guys, a 72-year-old guy, is sitting at that point, and she goes, "I'm gonna go right there and sit with him and take some pictures." He goes, "Sure." Dad watches her walk out. She sits down. Old, old guy, barely could ride the horse. She's taking pictures. She gets up, and down at the bottom of the hill, there's a small lake, and surrounding the lake, there's trees. She walks down into the trees, presumably to take pictures of the lake, but she doesn't come back. Big search. I'm talking about one of the biggest searches in Yosemite history. And they find the lens cap to her camera inside that path in the tree line. They never find her. And that happened 46 years ago. I filed a Freedom of Information Act for that report and all the investigation into it, and I get denied. I appealed. I got denied. Finally, a special agent from the Park Service... Just so people know, the Park Service has uniformed... police officers, National Park Service police that patrol their parks, and they go to the National Law Enforcement Academy. Up above them, they have special agents, detectives, and they are doing all the follow-up work that the police officers in the field do. This case goes to a special agent. There's been nothing done on this case in 40 years. The special agent calls me. "Why do you want the case?" I said, "Well, that's an irrelevant question according to FOIA. You can't ask that." And he goes, "Well, I wanna know." I said, "Well, it's been 47 years. I doubt anyone's looked at it. Have you looked at it?" "No, nobody's looked at it." I said, "Well, I'd, I'd like a copy of it just to understand what happened." He goes, "You're never gonna get the case." This guy's name was Special Agent Yu, Y-U. I said, "Why?" And he says, "None of your business. You're never gonna get it." I said, "First of all, why talk to me like that? I'm, I'm f- prior law enforcement. I'm, I'm not being rude. I just wanna know." He goes, "Forget it. Drop it. You're never gonna see it." I said, "No, I want that case." And he goes, "You don't, you've never seen any other missing person case, and you're not gonna see this one." I said, "Whoa, I have over 30 missing person cases from your agency from around the United States that I've FOIA'd before and I've received." "You're a liar." You said that to me. I said, "No, I'm not a liar. I don't lie, and this is the truth." And he goes, "Well, you're not getting this one. Anything else you wanna know?" I said, [laughs] "Nah, I think you've done it." And that was it. In that amount of time, I've really found out nothing more about the Stacy Errs case. 14-year-old girl, disappeared, never found. Nobody's ever done anything on the case in 40 years. I still haven't seen it. Now, I talked to Tim Burchett, who you had in here the other day, and I explained to him, "I want a m- a meeting with Burgum, and I wanna lay out what I have and explain the obstru-"
- JRJoe Rogan
Who's Burgum?
- DPDavid Paulides
The head of the Department of the Interior.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- DPDavid Paulides
Doug Burgum.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- DPDavid Paulides
And explain to him, uh, the obstructions that are happening in his agency. Those are our reports. If nobody's looked at it in 40-plus years, what does it matter if I have it?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. The people that were working back then aren't working anymore. It's not like anyone's gonna get in trouble.
- DPDavid Paulides
No. Half of them are dead.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DPDavid Paulides
And Tim said, "Okay. I'll have my people get ahold of you." They got ahold of me. They said that they called DOI. They said that DO- DOI people said, "Yeah, we'll get ahold of you." I called them three times. They won't call me back.
- JRJoe Rogan
So what do you think's going on?
- 14:52 – 18:35
Missing-person lists, costs, and ‘ongoing investigation’ exemptions
- DPDavid Paulides
So when you look at the totality of... And let's just talk about Yosemite. As I dug into it, there's probably over 50 people missing in Yosemite as we talk right now. When I asked for a list from Yosemite, from the Department of the Interior 12 years ago, they said they don't have a list. I asked for a list of missing people from the entire system in the Department of Interior. They said, "We don't have a list." And I said, "Well, okay. I've written so many books. I'm a printed author. I'm gonna ask you to put that list together for me." According to the rules, I fit that criteria to ask.
- JRJoe Rogan
But they said they don't have a list.
- DPDavid Paulides
Right, but I asked them to put one together.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- DPDavid Paulides
And they said, "We'll get back to you." They said, "No, you don't qualify, but if you want us to put together a list from the entire system, it's gonna cost you $1.4 million. If you want a list from Yosemite, that's gonna cost you $34,000." So that got me really upset. Over the next two years, I put the list together. Joe, the third year, you know what Yosemite did? They released a list of missing people from Yosemite, so I know I got all the people from Yosemite. I wrote about them in my books. They still haven't released a list from the entire system.
- JRJoe Rogan
So do you think they released it because you were pressuring them? Now, so, like, the... You could look at it a bunch of different ways. I'm trying to, like, look at it from the skeptic's perspective. You'd say, "Well, this is clear. A bunch of people don't wanna do their job. They're lazy. They don't like this guy coming along and asking for information." But you think there's something weird going on.
- DPDavid Paulides
So-
- SPSpeaker
Here's the FOIA I found on their website that was sent to him in [clears throat] 2011. It says that the inv- the, uh, appeal was properly invoked because of exemptions 7A. And here's... I'll let you read that, what that is.
- JRJoe Rogan
7A permits the withholding of records or information complied f- or compiled rather, for law enforcement purposes, but only to the extent that the production of such law enforcement records or information could reasonably be expected to interfere with enforcement proceedings. So they could r- withhold it because you could interfere with enforcement proceedings?
- SPSpeaker
That's 40 years later.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's-
- SPSpeaker
Or 30, 30 years later, I guess.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's fucking weird. The exemption is intended to prevent premature disclosure of the investigat- uh, investigatory materials that might be used in law enforcement action. 40 years later?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, it says the incident is still ongoing. In criminal investigations, the incident is still ongoing.
- JRJoe Rogan
40 years later?
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
What? Okay. Tinfoil hat firmly placed on your head. What do you think's going on?
- DPDavid Paulides
So first of all, missing people investigations are not criminal investigations.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DPDavid Paulides
There's nothing criminal about disappearing. If it's a criminal investigation and there's criminal aspects to it, it shouldn't be a missing person case. It ought to be suspicious circumstances investigated by a criminal investigator.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DPDavid Paulides
It has a classification as a missing person, and what they're not saying there is what about the other 40 cases I've already gotten from them that are since that, that are missing person cases?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.So that's a little weird, but I could also see incompetent people that don't wanna work. They don't wanna do their job, and they're like, "Fuck this guy. I don't wanna do his work. I don't wanna go... Why is he asking me for this information? He's just a kooky author." I could see that. But, like, what do you think might be going on with these people?
- 18:35 – 21:01
Canine and tracker ‘failures’ as a core Missing 411 indicator
- DPDavid Paulides
So when I was in law enforcement, I worked on the SWAT team, and we had canines assigned to our team. Joe, I can't ever remember us looking for someone with a dog, and the dog didn't find the person.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DPDavid Paulides
I have 1,200 to 1,500 cases where they bring a canine to find a missing person, and the dog can't track, won't track, or turns around, comes down, and sits down, and is not interested in tracking. That's totally outside the behavior of a dog.
- JRJoe Rogan
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- DPDavid Paulides
Risa?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Same sort of situation, right? She was with her friend. Uh, they were hiking. They had just talked. The friend was a- ahead of her, and the friend turned around to ask her a question. She was gone. They do an investigation. They bring in dogs. Can't find anything. The lady's just gone.
- DPDavid Paulides
100%. You're 100% right. It doesn't make any sense, and it does... It fit that 411 criteria that I laid down, which is why I did a video about it. Her disappearance doesn't make sense.
- 21:01 – 23:27
From missing people to UFO abduction themes: ‘entities’ and memory removal
- JRJoe Rogan
So do you have suspicions? Like, do you think something supernatural is going on? Do you think something extraterrestrial or interdimensional? Like, what do you think is involved in these people going missing?
- DPDavid Paulides
First of all, I don't know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DPDavid Paulides
In my books, I've laid out facts, and I let the viewer decide. But one thing I did find, because I've written about a lot of hunters that have disappeared, and let's say you and I go out, and we're gonna go pig hunting at your pl- friend's farm down the way. And you say, "Hey, Dave, you go that way, and I'll go that way, and I'll meet you in an hour." Okay. So in my world, I call that point of separation. Every time on a missing hunter case, it's at that point of separation that something happens. It never happens when they're together. It always happens when people are alone. That's point number one. Number two is the canine issue. Canines failure to pick up a scent. They bring in professional trackers, and they can't find tracks. That's not normal. Um, a lot of times, say in Alaska, they have some great native trackers up there, and they can't find people, and every other time they can. So it's like if you're going from A to B, you're gonna leave a scent and you're gonna leave a track.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DPDavid Paulides
Well, they can't find that, and that's not normal. So in my... I made a movie called Missing 411: The Hunted, and in that movie, there was a case of 12, 12 guys are planting trees on the side of a mountain in Washington State, and there's a herd of elk at the bottom of the mountain. And all of these guys see this classic UFO come up the mountain, hover over one elk. The herd scatters, but one elk doesn't. It just stands there. And then without anything between the UFO and the elk, it picks the elk up, and it's gone. The guys all say, "F this. I'm out of here." The whole group of planters leave. And the manager for the company says, "Whoa, guys, hold on. What's going on?" So they call MUFON out, Mutual UFO Network. They bring some investigators out, and they interview these guys one by one, and th- they all say the same thing. And they say, "What
- 23:27 – 33:52
Carl’s Wyoming encounter: the deformed bullet, stasis, and telepathic contact
- DPDavid Paulides
we're afraid of is we're next. They just took that elk, but we're next." So that's in the movie. Keep that in the back of your mind. There's a guy named Carl in Wyoming. He's hunting in the Medicine Bow National Forest alone. Sees some elk 100 yards away, lines up with his rifle, boom. And he says, "Dave, it's like everything went into slow motion. I see the bullet come out the gun about three or four feet, and it drops to the ground." He says, "I walked over," and he goes, "The elk didn't move, and I pick it up, the bullet. I put the bullet in my pocket, and then two alien-type entities walk up to me," and they engage him in mindspeak. And they, what they do is they eventually take him on a craft, and they take the elk on the craft.And it's like the elk are frozen there in time. And they have him march behind a screen, and they said, "We don't want you. You're going back," mind to mind. And he goes, "What's going on?" They go, "You're going back." He says, "The next thing I remember is falling 10 to 15 feet," he's guessing. He hits his shoulder, probably displaces it, and he rolls down a hill. They're already searching for him 'cause he's missing, his wife, the sheriff. And they take him back, and they take him to a hospital, and they're taking X-rays, and he had tuberculi- tuberculosis scars as a kid. Those are no longer there. And he had other medical issues that are completely cured. The investigators came out and they s- the Wyoming Department of Law Enforcement looked at that bullet and did an exam on it, and they could not figure out what that bullet hit to make it deform in the manner that it did. I have pictures of it in the movie. It's, it's very odd.
- JRJoe Rogan
See if you can find the p-
- DPDavid Paulides
Is it-
- JRJoe Rogan
Are the, are the pictures online?
- SPSpeaker
I'm looking, I'm looking, I'm looking, I'm looking.
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs] Of course you are.
- DPDavid Paulides
If you go to Tubi, T-U-B-I, Missing 411: The Hunted, the, uh, the movie's there for free. You guys could watch it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Also check out Gearheads Gone Wild.
- DPDavid Paulides
That's my friend's show. [laughs] Okay, so, uh, no tuberculosis scars, the bullet. So I'm talking to Carl and I said, "Well, why do you think they sent you back?" And he says, "Well, I think it's 'cause I had a vasectomy." I said, "Oh, did they say anything to you about that?" "No." "Okay." So he was 91 years old when I interviewed him, sharp as a tack.
- JRJoe Rogan
How old was he when this encounter happened?
- DPDavid Paulides
I think he was 38, 39. And, uh, again, this happened in the Medicine Bow National Forest.
- JRJoe Rogan
Where is that?
- DPDavid Paulides
Medicine Bow is directly, uh, I'd say about 75 miles northwest of Cheyenne. So at about the same time, the Air Force base in Cheyenne is having a group of cluster UFO sightings above the ICBM sites, and that was never made public at this time. It was 30, 40, 50 years later through, uh, Robert Hastings and other Air Force personnel came out that these documents started to show up. So Carl would've never known what was happening at the same time these things in Cheyenne were happening. And then you think about what's going on in Wyoming that would cause this? But really the epiphany to me with Carl is there's a lot of people in the woods that are found, quote unquote, "They fell." They always fall alone, and they always fall in places where if you and I are in the woods, we're gonna be pretty careful when we're alone. We're not gonna be walking off a cliff. We're gonna be careful. A lot of these people are found under very unusual circumstances, dead at the bottom of a area that you just don't think makes sense, and they couldn't be tracked. So with Carl, when you think about him being taken, a hunter hunting elk, nobody gets seen, nothing's heard. So I did a circumference around the area where he went, and it's in the movie. There's a group of German hunters. Carl was German. German hunters that have disappeared. Nobody else but German that have disappeared in that area. And then when you look at the scope of what I've done in my work, I went backwards and I found there's a lot of German people that have been abducted, more than the normal population of people, and these German hunters really were the opening valve to me that something odd was happening with German.
- JRJoe Rogan
What do you think that is? Why German?
- DPDavid Paulides
I really wish I knew. That's probably outside my pay grade. I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of rumors about the Germans having associations with aliens.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, during the Nazi times?
- DPDavid Paulides
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DPDavid Paulides
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, there's a lot of, like, weird occult stuff going on with the Nazis, right?
- DPDavid Paulides
Uh-huh.
- JRJoe Rogan
And they were making, like, what looked like a UFO. They were constructing these things that looked like flying saucers.
- DPDavid Paulides
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Um, you know the Travis Walton case?
- DPDavid Paulides
Oh, very well.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. This is... I have his bobblehead. He came in here. Um, that's another guy that went missing in the woods, and it's a similar story. It, you know, he was taken aboard some sort of a craft. Uh, m- multiple witnesses, including people who hated him, one guy who he actually got in a fist fight with earlier that day, and they all told the same story. They all passed polygraph tests. He shows up days later, um, with this crazy story, that he had been hit by a beam of light. They took him aboard this craft, fixed him, fixed whatever happened to him, and communicated with him, and then dropped him back off.
- DPDavid Paulides
I know Travis well. In fact, I was doing a conference in Phoenix and he brought his son to the conference 'cause his son wanted to me- meet, meet me because a lot of my work focused around things that happened to Travis. And I, I think Travis' case is probably not unique, and there's probably thousands of people out there that just don't wanna talk about it. They just want it to go away.
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause it's too weird, and 'cause you feel like a fool.
- DPDavid Paulides
Yeah, that, and I think maybe they're afraid that they're gonna get pigeonholed as what you just said, odd.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 33:52 – 40:31
Elk, German clusters, and why certain people/places recur in the reports
- DPDavid Paulides
Yes, they are. Um, now there's an, that's an interesting point because there are more hunters that are abducted or that disappear hunting elk than any other animal, and it's not that there's more hunters hunting elk. There's more hunters hunting deer on the whole in the United States. But for some reason, there's more hunters that disappear hunting elk, and I've said this in my books before.
- JRJoe Rogan
[lips smack] Well, for, as a hunter, what, one thing that I would say is that when you're hunting elk, you're in the backcountry for the most part. You're in wild, remote areas with mountains. You're in, um, a place with very few people. It's very hard to get to them. Um, whereas deer hunting, a lot of it's done on farms. A lot of it's done on flat land. You know, a lot of tree stand hunting. Uh, d- deer, white-tailed deer specifically in America, North America, are the most hunted animal. Uh, but if you've ever gone white tail hunting, a lot of it is in and around farmland, and, um, you, you never, very rarely at least, you're hunting white-tailed deer in the mountains, remote mountain ranges. Uh, mule deer, you hunt mule deer in remote mountain ranges. But white-tailed deer, they're, they tend to populate around humans and ar- and around agriculture. So that kind of makes sense if they wanna be stealthy, if they're trying to not be detected by as many people. You would, you would probab- Also, you probably, if you were gonna abduct someone and be reasonably sure that no one was going to see you do it, you would probably go where there's very few people and just some random guy who's decided to hike up to 10,000 feet and chase a herd of elk.
- DPDavid Paulides
Another thing I've heard from Carl is that he was told that these entities, whoever they are, have the ability to freeze time and space. And remember when I said elk, the elk he was looking at, he said he shot and they didn't move. It's like they were frozen, and they were frozen in that same position when he got on the craft. Time and space being that everything around him, nobody could walk in, nobody could walk out. It's like the time and space that he and the entity and the elk were in were frozen. It's a hard thing to grasp, but I've heard this before.
- JRJoe Rogan
It is a hard thing to grasp, but the people that speculate on how theseadvanced species, whatever they are, they're able to travel, that there's some sort of manipulation of space time, that it's not as simple as like what we do, which is very crude. We do propulsion. We burn things and push stuff out the back, and it makes stuff go forward. Or we have an internal combustion engine that does the same thing. It's, makes explosions inside the engine, burns things, pushes the pistons around, forces the transmission, prr, and it moves. What these things supposedly do, and again, this is all just crazy talk, but what they're able to do is manipulate space time itself and instantaneously travel from one place to the next 'cause they have a control over the universe in a way that with us it's, like, completely theoretical. Like, there's this woman that speculates that in the future someday, you know, with many, many, many advancements and who knows how many years of... We will be able to travel quantumly, like the way quantum particles are entangled. She believes that perhaps the entire universe works that way, and that everything is connected, and that this thing that we have, this idea that the distance between stars is far too vast for a human to travel because you can't travel past the speed of light, and if you did travel past the speed of light, it would still take... You know, even if you went, like, two times the speed of light or three times the speed of light, it would still take thousands and thousands of years to just get to the closest planets outside of our solar system. And she thinks that one day perhaps, if not humans or whatever's coming after humans, we'll be able to quantumly travel. And you would imagine that would involve some sort of manipulation of space and time that we can't quite understand, that we're just, we're just, we're talking about it like it's magic. But again, if you were talking to someone from the 1400s about a cell phone, "Hey, I can FaceTime my friend in Australia," they'd go, "What the fuck are you talking about?" [laughs] "Well, I pick out this device in my pocket that's as thin as a few slices of paper, and, uh, through that I can, I can, like, stare at my friend, and he can see me and I can see him." Like, "That's magic. You're talking crazy talk. There's nothing, there's no cord. There's no nothing. Somehow or another, there's like... What are you sending that's being received and it comes into HD video with sound, and it, it perfectly lines up with the way the person's talking and you hear it in real time? That's crazy. That doesn't even make sense." But yet we just are so accustomed to it that it's normal. "Oh, I'm getting a FaceTime call from my friend. Oh, hey. What's up, buddy?" You know, we think it's normal. And then you gotta imagine if you could just push into the future and imagine thousands of years of innovation and technology, like what, what does that look like? You know, communication used to be you had to shout. You know? Bob's over there 100 yards away. You had to put your hands, "We're going to the left," you know? Now you could just text him or you could call him, and that the ability to communicate at vast distances will one day be very similar to the way we travel. We can travel vast distances instantaneously.
- DPDavid Paulides
Part of the entanglement idea that you talked about, what if you're in Austin and I go back to Whitefish, Montana, and of- what if we had the ability to think, "Hey, Joe, I forgot to tell you this when I was on your show," and I told you by my mind? Now people would say, "Oh, that's stupid. That's ridiculous." But I've talked to people that are way smarter than me that say that part of this entanglement is, is that what if you're in space and you're on the far side of the Moon, and what if we all have that ability right now
- 40:31 – 54:11
Skinwalker Ranch overlap: portals, silhouettes, and the ‘hitchhiker effect’
- DPDavid Paulides
to affect others in other places, and our thinking and our mind is really more powerful, and we are this spider web of entanglement that we don't quite understand right now? And let me... Where this came from is George Knapp, been on his show like 30 times. He had a guy named Colm Kelleher who was the head of all investigations for Bigelow at Skinwalker Ranch, and George said, "Hey, Dave, Kelleher wants you to come out to Las Vegas. He thinks some of the work that they're doing at the ranch right now overlaps with your work on missing people." So I came out to Las Vegas three or four times, met with Kelleher, and we talked about just what you're talking about right now, this overlapping of understanding consciousness, because it's much more complex than some people are willing or even for us to understand. But what if what's happening on Earth right now, whether it's abductions, cattle mutilations, UFOs, is really something that is so beyond us? We try to think in rational terms. "Well, they're taking us for our sperm," or, "They're taking us for our eggs." What if it's something a lot, lot more deep than really we could comprehend right now?
- JRJoe Rogan
Like what?
- DPDavid Paulides
I don't know. [laughs] I'm asking you, Joe.
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- DPDavid Paulides
But hi- his point being that all the time, they spent almost 20 years at that ranch investigating things, and he tells me about this one incident, and he says, "I've got a physicist up on the hill with another researcher. It's 2:00 in the morning. They're looking down at the meadow, and they see this bright light, and this bright light starts to get bigger." And if you tell your guy, he could pick it up right now on, uh, if you go to Amazon to the movie American Sasquatch: Man, Myth or Legend, it's my movie.
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- DPDavid Paulides
We have it there. And it starts getting bigger.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh-huh.And one guy doesn't have night vision, the other guy does. And this round thing keeps getting bigger and bigger till eventually it's like you're looking down a tube. And he says, "It's almost three-dimensional, because you could see something at the far end of the tube." And the physicist just handing the night vision back, and they're sharing it. Eventually, the tube gets to be about this big, that something twice the size of you and I could crawl through. All of a sudden, they see something crawling down the tube. It crawls out, it jumps down onto the land, and they see... It's so dark, even with night vision, that they could just see a silhouette, and it's bipedal, seven or eight feet tall, all black in color. Is it that? Is this it? No. Okay. [laughs] Well, sounded like it. Sounded like what you're saying. Is that the, the documentary you're talking about?
- DPDavid Paulides
No. [laughs] It's not mine.
- JRJoe Rogan
Something different?
- DPDavid Paulides
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Sasquatch- American Sasquatch, Man Hunt ... Man, Myth or Monster? Isn't that what he said? Is that it?
- DPDavid Paulides
That's it, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's... Okay. So this is your film?
- DPDavid Paulides
That is the film, but that's not what I'm talking about.
- JRJoe Rogan
Where is it in the film? Do you remember?
- DPDavid Paulides
It's near the, near the end, like three-quarters of the way through it. It's at, it's with my interview with Kelleher, and he's talking about it, and, and this thing... And then it walks away on, on two feet. And w- when we talk about this, he said, "Doesn't make any sense to us. You know, did we just see a portal open up and an entity from another dimension crawl through into our dimension? And is that the access point that they're using? And can they open this at certain times and close it at certain times at will?" And really, that was the first time that I had heard this from someone credible that this can happen. And if you think about the people at the ranch today, they said, "Well, the amount of energy it takes to open a portal is so many times greater than an atom bomb that it doesn't make sense that that could be the answer to this." Well, maybe their answer to what a portal is is different, but what these guys saw doesn't make a lot of sense to us.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, the whole Bigfoot thing doesn't make a lot of sense. One of the reasons why the Bigfoot thing doesn't make a lot of sense is that, um, Native Americans don't have a lot of mythological creatures. It's not like they have a ton of dragons and demons and pixies and wood sprites. There's not... But there's over a hund- uh, isn't, w- didn't we look this up, the, the, the, the name for Sasquatch? Yeah, there's a bunch. There's like 50 different names that they have for this one thing that they universally describe as a bipedal, hairy, ape-like creature that's eight to 10 feet tall. And there's so many sightings of this one thing. It's not like people keep talking about different animals, like, "I saw an elephant that has six legs." No, it's always bipedal hominids. It's weird. It's a weird... So, 'cause, like, I've never seen compelling Bigfoot footage. It all looks bullshit. The Patterson footage I think is nonsense. I think it's a guy in a monkey suit for sure. I think, uh, most of what you see in terms of, like, photographic evidence is nonsense, but there's too many stories. There's too many stories for me to completely dismiss it, and I've always wondered if it's some sort of an interdimensional experience, and that this thing may be the fact that it's in the woods and that they happen under heightened awareness because you're in the woods, and you're probably very nervous and freaked out, so you're probably in a very bizarre state of mind. And all of a sudden, you encounter something that makes zero sense, and the same thing gets encountered by people over and over again. And you could write that o- Now, if you're a cynical person or a rational person, which I'm neither one of those, you, you could, you could write it off, and you could say, "Well, there's an archetype. People have talked about this creature, you know, for so long that that's what you expect to see, so that's what you make yourself see." You know, maybe. Maybe. Maybe it's a, a bear that walks on two legs, 'cause we know they do that, particularly black bears. They walk on two legs all the time. I've seen them walk on two legs. It's very weird. But they don't describe it like a bear. They describe it like an ape. They, they, they say it has long arms like an ape, and that it looks at you, and that these things exist i- in the forest, like deep in the forest where there's no people. And then when people go out there, they encounter them, and the story is just... It's like the UFO abduction story. It's so similar. It's so similar over and over again, like a very similar story. And you've always gotta separate the kooky stories, 'cause there's always a bunch of crazy people that make things up. There's a bunch of people that are probably on psychiatric drugs, or they're tripping balls on mushrooms or whatever it is. There's a bunch of people that see things that maybe aren't there at all. But then there's enough of these stories where you gotta go, "Man, if just one of these is true, one out of 100, and then there's thousands of them, like, how, what is going on?"
- DPDavid Paulides
Not an ape. It's not a gorilla. If it was, we'd have it in the zoo, and we don't. The... It walks like a man. Ape and gorillas don't walk like a man.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, Gigant- Gigantopithecus did, right?
- DPDavid Paulides
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
It didn't?
- DPDavid Paulides
There's no evidence it was bipedal at all.
- JRJoe Rogan
I thought it was the jaw structure.
- DPDavid Paulides
So they have one piece of jaw and a bunch of teeth, and there's a lot of theories behind that, but there's no evidence it was bipedal.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- DPDavid Paulides
That's number one. Number two, there's no evidence of it- it's ever been in North America.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, but the sightings that they find of this thing are in Alaska and the Pacific Northwest primarily. This is where you get a lot of them. And the idea would be that when the Bering land bridge was around b- before the Ice Age, or during the Ice Age, when the ocean levels were much lower and there was more land exposed, that these things could walk across Asia, like we know the short-faced bear did, and we also know people made it from Siberia into North America.
- DPDavid Paulides
So let's just, let's just take Gigantopithecus. That wouldn't be some- an environment it could live in, though.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- 54:11 – 1:23:39
Bigfoot as investigation: hair samples, disputed DNA, and interdimensional framing
- DPDavid Paulides
Yes. So after I was a policeman, I had a master's degree. I worked, uh, technology for a while. I had a master's in HR, and I ran HR organizations. Did that for five, six, seven years. I said I had enough and I'm leaving. I, I had young kids, so I was gonna leave with my family and have fun. Two founders of this company, super rich, come to me and they say, "Hey, Dave, we got a job for you."At your own space, at your own will. Here's the story. When they were younger, they didn't know each other. They grew up in different parts. They went up into the woods with their families, backpacking, camping, having fun. They get up in the middle of the night, take a leak, and independently, didn't know each other, they saw Bigfoot. They found each other. They formed this company, made millions of dollars. One day they're at lunch, and they start talking to each other, and they had the same experience. They said, "Wow, that's, that's freaking bizarre. So let's get to the bottom of it." So I'm leaving. They know I have an investigative background. They said, "Hey, we're gonna hire you. We want you to go find out if it's true-
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- DPDavid Paulides
... false, or a hoax."
- JRJoe Rogan
They hired you to go check to see if Bigfoot was real?
- DPDavid Paulides
Flipped the whole bill. They said, "You can do it at your own pace, own will. We'll pay for everything." I said, "Not interested." They came back to me, like, four or five times. Finally, at the end of a year, my wife is divorcing me. I now have only 50% custody. I have 50% of my life open to do whatever I want. They came at me again. I said, "Okay." There... I, I, I'm gonna shorten it down to, from what took five years to five minutes. Tennessee, Great Smoky Mountain National Park, there was a man there named, uh, Scott Carpenter. Scott, rest his soul, has since died, but he took me into an area in the park, and he said, "Dave, this is the part where I've, I've had all kinds of evidence." So-
- JRJoe Rogan
What kind of evidence?
- DPDavid Paulides
Footprints, hair.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hair?
- DPDavid Paulides
Hair.
- JRJoe Rogan
So has he ever had the hair analyzed? Okay.
- DPDavid Paulides
So we start talking about it. How can we get a good sample of hair? So I said, "You know, with bear, they take bear samples and DNA samples from bear all the time. Let's try this. Let's take some packaging tape, wrap it inside out on the outside of a tree. Put something at the fork of the tree, some kind of food, whatever, honey, something. If they lean up against the tree, it's gonna pull the hair out, which we need the follicle for the DNA. Let's see if that works." He says, "Brilliant." We did it. It worked. In that area, we had tracks. Now, just so you know and everyone else knows, there's hair and fiber experts in the world, and they testify in Superior Court all the time. Uh, like, out in the lobby, you have all these different kinds of animals. If we took a hair from one animal and gave it to a hair and fiber expert, he could tell you within two minutes what animal that came from, because every hair looks different. So we took those hairs, went to a hair and fiber expert, and they said, "Well, where'd you get that?" And I go, "What do you mean?" "We've never seen that hair before. It's not classified. It doesn't exist." Hmm. Okay. So that means we're onto something. So then I took-
- JRJoe Rogan
Does it have follicle? Can they do DNA on it, or is it just hair?
- DPDavid Paulides
They did.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- DPDavid Paulides
They did. So I, I called the Uni... I was living in California at the time. I called the University of California Davis, the biggest animal lab in the world, and they said, "What do you got?" And I explained. They said, "Bigfoot? We're not touching it. We don't want anything [laughs] to do with it." I went to University of Texas, UC Davis. I went to, like, six or seven. No one would touch it. But then I found a woman that testified in the courts here in Texas as a DNA expert. I called her up. Her name's Melba Ketchum. "Dr. Ketchum, I have this sample here. Would you be willing to do DNA analysis on it?" "Absolutely. It's gonna cost you so many thousands of dollars." I go, "No problem. We've got somebody who's gonna pay." So she goes, "Okay. Let's do one better, Dave. Send me the sample. Let me look at it first. I'm gonna give it to my hair and fiber expert." They look at it. Fiber, hair and fiber expert says, "It's nothing we've ever seen," so that's good. So she goes, "Okay, here's, here's what we're gonna do. Can you get any more samples?" I said, "I, I have an idea. Let me try." So I go on coast to coast, and I, I laid it out. I said, "Hey, we have these samples. We're looking for hair samples. Don't, don't bullshit us, because we'll know right away. Send us hair samples with, with everything attached, and we're gonna send it to a lab. You don't have to pay the bill." We got 125 valid samples that were not deer, antelope, bear, whatever. She goes through the DNA analysis on it. Cost, I think it cost us $400,000 at the end of the day. It's a lot less expensive now. And, uh, they all... So hair will, will give you mitochondrial DNA from the maternal side, but it won't give you fraternal DNA from the father's side. That you need nuclear DNA, blood, tissue, saliva, and we got some of those. Son of a gun. At the end of the day, the DNA comes back 12 to 15,000 years to the Middle East on the mother's side. Father's side, it doesn't exist in GenBank. 352 billion base pairs of DNA does not exist. The father's DNA does not exist. GenBank says it's impossible. Since that time, other people have come forward and said, "Hey, you know, on elongated skulls, we've had the same problem. We can't find the fraternal DNA, just like you." That's a guy named LA Marzulli that was doing the research there. And then Ron Moorehead, who's doing other DNA studies on elongated skulls in South America, said the same thing. That's odd, Dave. SoThe fr- the maternal we understand. The fraternal we don't. And the, the DNA, they did a paper about it. It's online. Having a lot of people say, "Oh, you know what? That's BS. It's, it's bad." But nobody else has ever done a test, and I could get you more hair within two weeks if we wanted to. Nobody wants to test it.
- JRJoe Rogan
I'll test it. What do we have to do?
- DPDavid Paulides
The truth is, the truth is, the truth is-
- JRJoe Rogan
Jamie, you ready to go?
- SPSpeaker
Let's go.
- JRJoe Rogan
Let's get some tape.
- DPDavid Paulides
The truth is it'll all come back the same, and I believe that the researchers who have done it, they've gotten the same results.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so if you say that it, on the fraternal side, it doesn't exist, on the maternal side, w- it's showing thousands. E- explain that again.
- DPDavid Paulides
So l- like I'm Greek.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DPDavid Paulides
So they could, they could chase my DNA backwards through time to, I don't know, Greece-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- DPDavid Paulides
... 10, 15,000 years ago. Well, they were able to chase the maternal side back to the Middle East, 12 to 15,000 years.
- JRJoe Rogan
And what did they say it was?
- DPDavid Paulides
That's all they said. But what they're saying is, is that, and a lot of [laughs] people have picked up on this, well, that has a lot of religious connotations to it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why does it have religious connotations to it?
- 1:23:39 – 1:52:39
Psychedelics, ‘little people,’ and consciousness as a lens on reality
- DPDavid Paulides
Well, they do, they do have these things called little people. Have you heard of those?
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm. What are those?
- DPDavid Paulides
That's very odd. Something that kind of looks like you and me.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DPDavid Paulides
But they're only about three feet tall.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- DPDavid Paulides
And they look like miniature, kind of like dwarves.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, people have those experiences when they do mushrooms.
- DPDavid Paulides
[laughs] Yeah, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you know, do you know that there's a specific mushroom that when you take it, everyone sees little, tiny people?
- DPDavid Paulides
[laughs] I didn't know that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. This is a... There was a recent article about this. See if you can find that, Jamie. Um, there's, uh, one very specific type of hallucinogenic mushroom where when you take it, universally everyone experiences little, tiny people. Like little, like, you know, elves from ancient stories. I mean, what do you th- why, why is that so common? Like, what is that? "They saw them on their dishes when eating. The mushrooms that make people hallucinate dozens of tiny humans." Now, we're saying hallucinate. But we don't... I mean, if everyone's seeing the same exact vision, that's very strange. "Every year, doctors at a hospital in the Yunnan province of China brace themselves for an influx of people with an unusual complaint. The patients come in with strikingly odd symptom."Visions of pint-sized elf-like figures marching under doors, crawling up wells, and clinging to furniture. The hospital treats hundreds of these cases every year. All share a common culprit. Uh, I don't know how to say this. Lamao, Lamao asi, asiatica? Asiatica, I know that word. Asiatica? Oh. I don't know the first part. Okay, asiatica. Durr. A, La- Lamao, whatever it is. Lan, L-A-N-M-A-O-A, uh, asiatica, a type of mushroom that forms symbiotic relationships with the pine trees in nearby forests, and is locally popular food known for its savory umami pack flavor. In Yunnan, uh, L. asiatica is sold in markets. It appears on restaurant menus, and is served at home during peak mushroom season between June and August. One must ca- be careful to cook it thoroughly, though, otherwise the hallucinations will set in. Or don't cook it at all, pussy. Come on, don't you wanna see the elves? Why would you, why would you cook it? Oh. Outside of Yunnan and a couple other places, this strange mushroom is largely an enigma. "There are many accounts of the existence of this psychedelic mushroom, and many people who looked for it, but they never found the species," says, uh, Juliana Ferci, a mycologist and the founder and executive of the Fungi Federation, a non-profit group dedicated to discovering, documenting, and conserving fungi. Uh, this person, uh, Dom- Domner, Domner, is on a quest to solve the decades-old mystery about this fungi species and identify the unknown compound responsible for its unusually similar hallucinations, as well as what it can potentially teach us about the human brain. You know, the thing is like, is it teaching us something about the human brain, or is it allowing you to see something that's actually there all the time? I- What's at the bottom of that? Lilliputian? I was gonna show you. Oh. When I typed it into Perplexity, there's at least one- Ooh ... the Choctaw have something. Yeah, it says, "Many indigenous nations have their own name for little people, and the English phrase is just a loose umbrella term. Each language has specific words that usually mean something like little people, dwarves, or forest people." The Cherokee have it. Ooh, what's that word? Yunwisunsunayi, um, usually translated as little people. Choctaw, um, they have another crazy word, uh, little people and forest-dwelling type called kahwi anukasha, or forest dweller. The Chickasaw have them for little people, small supernatural beings. Yeah, there's so many of these things, like- Performs medicinal plants. Aha. Describes a little person who provides corn and medicinal plants. Well, many, many, many people who have taken mushrooms see little tiny people, see little elves. And in fact, you know, that is a, a core part of the Santa Claus mystery. You know, Santa Claus. Do, have you ever seen the relationship between Santa Claus and a mushroom called the Amanita muscaria? Heard of it. Do you know that whole thing? Yeah. But one of the weird things about Santa Claus is if you go back and look at old Christmas art, like Christmas art from the turn of the century, all of it has Amanita muscaria mushrooms in it, and elves. It's very weird that you would connect Christmas with elves and a known hallucinogenic mushroom, and that these little elves and these big mushrooms are all together and it's Merry Christmas. See if you can find some of those old... They're, they're really weird because it's like wh- how did we forget that and how did that go away? And there's also the way Santa Claus looks himself. Santa Claus with his red outfit, with his bright red outfit, with, uh, the white cuffs and the white buttons. The mushroom itself is bright red with white spots on it. Like, look at these. Look how weird that is. Look, Santa Claus with psychedelic mushrooms. Gotta be careful a little bit now 'cause we've talked about it. Some of it has to have been created- Oh yeah, 100% ... post-fact. You know, like this- We've fucked up the whole world. [laughs] It's just too new. Like, that's brand new. Is it brand new? That's not vintage. Look at, that looks awesome. Are you sure? It looks like AI made it. Yeah, it's on Etsy. Oh yeah, probably. But some of the old ones are real. Like, the one in the middle is legit. Like, that one's legit right there that you just put up there, and that one's from somewhere else. Look at that. How crazy is that? I wrote an article for my website, Santa Claus Was a Mushroom, a long time ago about this. [laughs] And I probably fucked up the whole algorithm. But if you look at these images, these are ancient images that, um, g- the one that you had up there with the foreign language on it where it says psychedelic. Yeah, that one. Like, how weird is that? That these little elves are carrying these giant psychedelic mushrooms with them, and they're walking off with it, and this has to do with Christmas how? Why does Christmas have to do with psychedelic mushrooms? And the question is, are these compounds-- Are you hallucinating when you take these compounds, or is it opening up your vision to see things that are there all the time anyway? Good question. Right. And like how many people have gone and taken mushrooms in the woods and seen Bigfoot? It's another question. Like how many people have taken psychedelic compounds that dissolve the ego, completely put you in a different set of, uh, different space in terms of your head space, and then you're able to see things perhaps that are there all the time anyway?The Bigfoot one is so weird, 'cause I always wanna dismiss it. The rational part of me wants to go, "Oh, shut up. It's all s- nonsense." I go back and forth with Bigfoot, and then the other part of me goes pe- too many people, too many people see the same thing. Too many people have had the... They can't all be crazy or liars. They can't all be.
- DPDavid Paulides
Oh.
- JRJoe Rogan
And if they're not, then, like, what is that thing? And why, why is there no dead body? Why is there... Well, maybe because it's not the same as we are. Maybe it comes from somewhere else, and maybe that is the whole, the whole experience, that the whole experience is weird, and that you really can't quantify it. You can't, you can't talk about it the same way you talk about, like, oh, you know, I know where a sloth lives. You know? It's like it's a different kind of a creature.
- DPDavid Paulides
So I've been around some people that say they believe that we're part of a simulation.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DPDavid Paulides
And part of that simulation is you get enough coins, and you can drop in a new entity in the game-
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- DPDavid Paulides
... that can screw with you.
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs] Oh, boy. Yeah, you get the right mushrooms, you see little people crawling up your chair. [laughs]
- DPDavid Paulides
Or let's, let's see how this guy handles a Bigfoot walking in front of him.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Yeah.
- DPDavid Paulides
Let's see how much his blood pressure goes up.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Yeah. Well, it's also, whatever we're doing in this n- th- as a human being going through this life, you know, you have a certain understanding of what's real and what's not real, and what to expect and what not to expect based on your life experiences, based on what everybody else is telling you about the world around you, and you kind of have categorized everything into what's real and what you, what you're gonna experience walking through this world. But just what we know about the material world is so bizarre. Just what we know about subatomic particles, just what we know about the very nature of matter itself, that it's all energy condensed in, in different weird ways, and that most of what atoms are is empty space, and that a, a particle, like subatomic particle can ex- ex- a- appear and disappear. We don't know where they're going. They can ap- they can be both moving, they can be moving and still at the same time. They can be in a place of superposition. Like, what are we talking about with just reality itself? Reality itself at the lowest observable, the smallest, the deepest we can look at it, it's fucking magic. Like, reality itself is magic. And then you have the, the weirdness of the observer effect, that when you, when you pay attention to particles, they, they behave differently.
- DPDavid Paulides
That's right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And that there's some sort of research that shows that we, somehow or another, we can actually affect particles in the past. Like, quantum physicists talk about this, not kooks like me.
- DPDavid Paulides
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
But quantum physicists talk about th- there's some sort of evidence that the observer effect can affect things in the past. Well, how far in the past? If it's only a few seconds, is it a millisecond? And what... Is it limited to that, or is it not? Like, is it the whole world f- flexible? Is everything malleable? Is everything dependent upon consciousness? And then what is-
- DPDavid Paulides
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... consciousness?
- 1:52:39 – 1:57:32
Government UFO disclosure and multiple ‘species’ claims in mainstream media
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Well, this is the Fox News thing. See if you could find that Fox News report, 'cause it's kind of wacky. 'Cause w- watching it on Fox News, you're like, "Is Fox News all of a sudden Coast to Coast with Art Bell? Like, what? What the hell has happened?" Because they were talking about the reptilians and the Nordics, the grays. Fox News. TV. Like, regular TV. Like, what is going on here? Is that nonsense? Are they being fed nonsense, or is this disclosure, and are they slow trickling this out to us to get regular folks like Boomers, get them accustomed to this idea of there are entities out there?
- DPDavid Paulides
What if they're just acclimating you-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm
- DPDavid Paulides
... to, to the reality of our world? And what if, what if the truth is, is that there's people around you that are aliens and you don't even know it?
- JRJoe Rogan
I think Elon's a fucking alien. It's the only thing that makes sense. I think I've met a few aliens, definitely.
- DPDavid Paulides
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
Joey Diaz might be an alien. There's a few people that I've met that I'm like, "You're not real."
- DPDavid Paulides
[laughs]
- JRJoe Rogan
"There's no way you're real." [laughs] But Elon's the top of my list. Like, he doesn't even make sense. Like, I, I've met a lot of people that are smarter than me. I, I'm, you know, I'm not the smartest guy. But, uh, there's only a few people that I've met I'm like, "Okay, we're not even the same thing." Okay, let, let's hear this. This is with Dan from, um, Age of Disclosure. And that's one of-
- SPSpeaker
A number of the people I interviewed in my film, senior intelligence officials, went on the record saying that, um, there have been dozens of crashed craft of non-human origin over the years. And, uh, elements of our government have recovered those, those crashes, and they've gotten out of that technology of non-human origin and in some cases non-human bodies that were on these, on these craft. A, a number of the people in my film go on the record saying that the bodies were not all the same type, meaning there were multiple species.
- JRJoe Rogan
Were the bodies alive or were they dead?
- SPSpeaker
The people in my film talked about, uh, events where they were, they were dead bodies. They were deceased bodies.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay. And-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JRJoe Rogan
... there's a lot of speculation about the amount of UFO information we've been given on this first tranche. Uh, we expected more. We know there is more. Why do you think-
- DPDavid Paulides
I've never used that word before
- JRJoe Rogan
... people inside the government-
- DPDavid Paulides
Tranche. Have you ever used that word?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right
- JRJoe Rogan
... are fighting so hard to release more?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, so the president gave his directive in middle of February.essentially instructing all federal agencies to declassify evidence of non-human intelligent life and UAP. What happened after that is, uh, the White House had to go get that evidence out of the hands of all these federal agencies, and they all, they all, for the most part, pushed back. Uh, the people who have gatekept this information for 80 years, they don't, they don't wanna share it. You know, they've, they've gotten a lot of power and control, um, over the years, and it's, it's just frankly not human nature for people to wanna give up power and control. So there's a tug-of-war happening behind the scenes. Um, there are a number of other reasons guiding their, their desire to keep this secret, including a general belief that the public can't handle the truth. Uh, I would argue the public can handle the truth. I think my, my film shows that. Uh, people aren't watching it and jumping out of windows. They're, they're curious, and they wanna learn more. Uh, there's also a general feeling that, um, a concern that they can't tell the American public what they know and don't know without also telling our adversaries and giving them some sort of advantage. Um, but I think, I think that that's-
- DPDavid Paulides
I think... Is that good?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it's good. Go back to that one weird one in the beginning, the black-and-white one that looked like a star, that looked like, um-
- DPDavid Paulides
That, that, that's been debunked, I think, by people online.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is it?
- DPDavid Paulides
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, how dare they.
- DPDavid Paulides
[clears throat] Uh, that-
- JRJoe Rogan
That one?
- DPDavid Paulides
Yeah.
- 1:57:32 – 2:14:05
A different kind of disappearance: intelligence ties and possible staged vanishing
- DPDavid Paulides
Let me add another twist to this missing person thing for you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay, please.
- DPDavid Paulides
So it's more of an evolution for me, learning what could be happening in those woods, and I started off in national parks. And the most recent thing I've done, Missing 411: National Parks, Washington State, there's a case where a guy in 2006 disappeared in Olympic National Park. He was a forming, former Army intelligence officer. He, uh, worked in Israel. He worked in Africa. He worked in a lot of different places, spoke six languages, and then he started to work in campaigns. And he worked for a woman who was campaigning to be a congresswoman in Washington State. She lost. She became the head of retirement services in the state of Washington. She brought him along as the assistant. His name is Gilbert Gilman. When I wrote the story up for my books, he was supposed to show up at this meeting for her on a Sunday. He stopped off at G- at Olympic National Park, parked his car, was playing the music loud. A ranger come by, asked him to turn it down. He turned it down. He got out, and he walked into the woods. He never came back. Huge search. He's never found. That's all I really knew, and I wrote it up like that. Canines couldn't follow his track. It disappeared, blah, blah, blah. Then I interview... We set up doing this thing for the movie, interviewing his relatives, and I interview his girlfriend. And his girlfriend said she saw him a month beforehand, and she said, uh, "A week before he disappeared, he was trying to call me like he wanted to tell me something, and I was busy, and I couldn't talk to him. And I knew he wanted to tell me something, but then I put it up, so something was wrong. I di- I never got to talk to him again." So I start talking to her about his past, and I said, "Well, did he ever work for the CIA?" And Joe, she goes, "I don't know if I can talk about that." I said, "Well, why can't you talk about that?" "Well, I don't, I don't know. I don't think I can." So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that means yes.
- DPDavid Paulides
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
[laughs]
- DPDavid Paulides
So, so she gets emotional. She's upset. She can't see him. And then we go into the next room, interview his mom. And his mom says, "Well, Dave, a lot of people don't know this, that before he disappeared, he... I have a penthouse in Chicago." This woman's really wealthy. "And Gilbert has a bedroom there. And he asked me to stack a couple books on his nightstand, and he wrote something on a yellow pad on my coffee table in Arabic." And I said, "How long would that sit, was that sitting there?" And she goes, "Well, I, I went one week, and he disappeared. I never got to r- really look at it, and then I flew to Washington, so I don't know what he wrote." So Joe, here's the kicker. I said, "Well, that's pretty strange." And she goes, "No, Dave. What's really strange is I'm in Washington, and we're doing this search for Gilbert. And the people who run my townhouse, my condominium," she lives, like, at the 30th floor, "call me and said, 'Two FBI agents were just here.' And they said they needed to get into your townhouse. And I gave them the keys, and I went into the... They went into your townhouse and took some things." I said, "Mrs. Gilman, they can't do that. I don't care what they say. They need a search warrant to go in your house. He can't give permission. What was taken?" "Well, I went back. The yellow pad was gone, and a couple of his personal things were gone." So I said, "This doesn't make any sense. Why would the FBI go into your h- houseTo retrieve anything of Gilbert's if this is a missing person case and he has no relationship to the government. And she goes, "Well, Dave, you're asking what I've been thinking all along." Now, this, this happened 15 years before I in- I interviewed her. She's sharp as a tack. Girlfriend's sharp as a tack. And she says, "Things haven't seemed right." And she said, "I think, I think he's alive somewhere." So as she's saying all this, my mind's racing and I'm thinking, "How many other people have disappeared in a national park under circumstances that I just heard from a girlfriend and the mom, but I don't know about them because I haven't been able to interview their girlfriends and their moms? And why wouldn't the Parks Service give me the information on the report if it was a straight missing person case like this?" They would. So really, is there m- something more nefarious going on in the parks about taking people that they're in conjunction with some other body, some other three-letter agency, to make people go away?
- JRJoe Rogan
So they're doing this on purpose with people that have information that's inconvenient or that's top secret, that they don't want it being leaked somehow?
- DPDavid Paulides
I had the feeling Gilbert knew. I think, I think it was all planned.
- JRJoe Rogan
He knew that they were gonna take him?
- DPDavid Paulides
Yeah. And I think he, he agreed to go. And I think-
- JRJoe Rogan
Why do, why do you think that?
- DPDavid Paulides
Because he left that pad with the, with the writing in Arabic.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did he speak Arabic?
- DPDavid Paulides
He spoke six languages.
- JRJoe Rogan
And we don't know what he wrote down in Arabic.
- DPDavid Paulides
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- DPDavid Paulides
And she also said a, a peculiar thing. I don't rem- I'm, I'm sorry I don't remember the books, but he asked her to get two books and put it on the counter, and she thought that that was a clue to what happened. Dante's Inferno might have been one of them, and I forgot the other book. But she said, "I, Dave, I think that's a clue. I just don't understand what he was trying to say."
- JRJoe Rogan
Huh.
- DPDavid Paulides
But that's also not the first time something like this has happened where somebody disappeared and it was all pointing to the government. In the 1950s, there was a man that was going to Miami University. He played in their band, he was a wrestler for the varsity wrestling team, he was an all-around guy. One night, uh, he comes home to his dorm and strangely, there's a fish in his bed. And he asks the RA for new sheets. She brings in new sheets, he gets them changed. Make a long story short, he disappears right after that, that night. So it's like that's the message that you're gonna go that night or something, I don't know. So everything just looks like the guy disappeared from college. Except five months later, the head of housing for Miami Univers- or, you know, Miami, Ohio, is at a city 10 miles north of the Pennsylvania border in New York, a little tiny city. He and his wife are having dinner at a bed and breakfast. And sitting across from him, 10 feet away, are three men at a table. And he says, "I'm telling you, that was Ron Tammen." That's the guy's name. And sh- he's talking to the wife, and they keep, keep looking at each other. So they go out to the parking lot and he tells his wife, "I've got to go back in. Ron's disappeared. I've got to go talk to him." So he goes back in and all three of the guys are gone, all dressed in suits. That was another indicator that the government had some- something to do with the disappearance. Now, Ron's family lived in LA. They never saw Ron again, never heard from him again.
- JRJoe Rogan
And what do you think they're doing? Like, why would they do that?
- DPDavid Paulides
Well, the question I, and I've talked to our, my team about this, why would the government need you to separate yourself from the family under unusual circumstances? What would be that point? I don't understand. If you wanted to go to work for government services, why wouldn't you just do it?
- SPSpeaker
There's a story about fish in Ron's bed on ronaldtammen.com.
- DPDavid Paulides
Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- SPSpeaker
This is the right guy?
- DPDavid Paulides
Yeah, that's him.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- SPSpeaker
It says this was a prank. Someone confessed it to him in 2010.
- 2:14:05 – 2:20:23
Mount Rainier: UFO history, clustered missing hikers, and unresolved searches
- DPDavid Paulides
So do you know much about Mount Rainier?
- JRJoe Rogan
Not much, no.
- DPDavid Paulides
So do you know that the, the r- original UFO period of time started with a UFO sighting-
- JRJoe Rogan
Kenneth Arnold
- DPDavid Paulides
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DPDavid Paulides
So do you know that when Arnold... Do you know what Arnold was doing when he was flying around?
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- DPDavid Paulides
So six months prior to that, three transport, marine transports were flying from El Toro Marine Base into Seattle, boom, one, one after the other. They hit bad weather. One of those planes came around and they lost it. Arnold, there was, like, a huge reward if you could find it. Arnold was flying by Rainier, looking at the mountain, trying to see if he could find it, and these things went by. Long story short, months later, they found the transport had crashed into the side of Rainier. First of all, do you know that the Marines never took one body off of there?
- JRJoe Rogan
Did they recover the vehicle, the, the, the craft?
- DPDavid Paulides
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- DPDavid Paulides
They didn't recover anything. They just-
- JRJoe Rogan
They just left it there?
- DPDavid Paulides
They left it there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Was it because the extraction's too difficult?
- DPDavid Paulides
That's what they said.
- JRJoe Rogan
Isn't that possible?
- DPDavid Paulides
I guess so.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, if it's not traversable, if they can't get in there.
- DPDavid Paulides
But they did get in there.
- JRJoe Rogan
They did?
- DPDavid Paulides
They did. They said they got in there. They saw bodies, but it was too dangerous to remove any, and they left them all on the side of the mountain.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- DPDavid Paulides
So that's the reason that Arnold was there. A lot of people don't know that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- DPDavid Paulides
And when he saw those things fly by him at an extraordinary pace, he said, "Hey, that's, that's nothing that, no planes we have." And there were multiple ones he saw go by.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DPDavid Paulides
Now, since that time, Mount Baker and Mount Rainier have had dozens of UFO sightings. And if you look at the dispersion of [laughs] people who have disappeared on Rainier, it's, most of them aren't way up here on the mountain. They're down here at the bottom. And when we put that in the movie, they, people couldn't believe how many people there are missing.
- JRJoe Rogan
How many people?
Episode duration: 2:20:25
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Transcript of episode _UduwgMDR-0
