CHAPTERS
- 0:02 – 2:07
Dogon-crafted cane and a detour into cosmic mythology
Joe Eszterhas opens with the story behind his striking, heavy carved cane—made by the Dogon people of Mali and carried for years. Joe Rogan connects it to the Dogon’s famous, mysterious origin mythology involving Sirius and the Nommo, setting a tone of curiosity and storytelling.
- •Eszterhas describes the cane’s craftsmanship, weight, and durability
- •Brief mention of violence/war affecting people connected to the carving tradition
- •Rogan recounts the Dogon origin myth (Nommo, Sirius, ark-like descent)
- •Eszterhas ties the topic to his daughter’s Africa photography work
- 2:07 – 3:39
Zelenskyy watching Basic Instinct—and the shock of cultural ripple effects
Eszterhas shares a bizarre anecdote from a biography claiming Zelenskyy and his wife repeatedly watched Basic Instinct while courting. The conversation riffs on whether movies can shape people, before pivoting to Eszterhas’ broader film legacy and provocative storytelling reputation.
- •Claim: Zelenskyy and his wife watched Basic Instinct ~15 times
- •Speculation/jokes about cultural influence vs real-world events like war
- •Eszterhas expresses sympathy for Ukraine through his Hungarian background
- •Rogan frames Eszterhas as a creator of unusually ‘wild’ films
- 3:39 – 5:14
The 'twisted little man' in the writer’s head and Basic Instinct 3 plans
Eszterhas explains his creative process as if it’s driven by an internal alter-ego—the ‘twisted little man’—alongside other inner companions like Mark Twain and Jesus. He reveals a new high-profile deal and his concept title for a third Basic Instinct film.
- •Eszterhas personifies his darker creative impulse as a separate entity
- •Mentions other inner influences: Twain and Jesus
- •Discusses a new Basic Instinct sequel: Basic Instinct: Jezebel
- •Contrasts his involvement with the franchise vs the disliked prior sequel
- 5:14 – 9:27
Writing Basic Instinct in 13 days: affair, cop psychology, coke, and the Stones
Eszterhas details how Basic Instinct poured out in a 13-day sprint in Hawaii, fueled by isolation, music, and drugs. He traces the core characters back to two real-life inspirations: a formative affair at 18 and a cop friend whose shootings raised unsettling questions.
- •Basic Instinct written in 13 days; ‘poured out’ creatively
- •Affair at 18 with a 39-year-old faculty wife as inspiration for Catherine Tramell
- •Police reporter years and a cop friend inform Nick Curran’s darkness
- •Hawaii writing binge: sun, cocaine, Rolling Stones soundtrack
- •Title shift from Love Hurts to Basic Instinct; script auctioned for $3M
- 9:27 – 11:21
Critics, backlash, and eventual reappraisal as a 'post-feminist classic'
Rogan and Eszterhas discuss how critics initially attacked Basic Instinct, while later cultural reassessments became more favorable. Eszterhas cites Camille Paglia’s reversal as an emblem of changing attitudes toward sexuality and female agency on screen.
- •Initial critical hostility toward the film
- •Eszterhas’ general disdain for critics (director quotes about critics)
- •Camille Paglia later praises the film as ‘post-feminist’
- •Debate over sexuality, power, and how culture reinterprets art over time
- 11:21 – 16:55
Police-beat trauma and civil unrest: the darkness behind the writing
Eszterhas recounts intense experiences as a police reporter—arriving at scenes before police, witnessing suicides and domestic shootings, and covering violent urban uprisings. These memories, including moments of personal fear and cultural dislocation, become the emotional raw material for his work.
- •Entering a house with bodies before police arrived; Hungarian-language grief intensifies impact
- •Glenville uprising: knowing both the wounded Hungarian cop and the Black nationalist leader
- •Fear so extreme he ‘pissed’ himself; repeated exposure to riots and violence
- •Links between lived trauma and later screenwriting tone
- •Early childhood exposure to street violence at age 12
- 16:55 – 24:15
From refugee camps to Rolling Stone: life as source material (and Otis Redding)
Eszterhas frames his entire filmography as rooted in personal ties—immigration, poverty, and social conflict. He then shares a powerful story: interviewing Otis Redding the night before Redding died in a plane crash, and the emotional aftermath.
- •Refugee-camp childhood and poverty as foundational experiences
- •Examples of scripts based on life: Big Shots, Checking Out, Betrayed, Telling Lies in America
- •Otis Redding interview night: drinking, bonding, and Redding’s famous line to him
- •Learning of Redding’s death via AP wire; grief-driven spiral afterward
- •Unmade Otis biopic attempt: Blaze of Glory (financing fell apart)
- 24:15 – 26:31
Christian screenplays that Hollywood and church gatekeepers wouldn’t fund
Eszterhas describes writing three Christian scripts after his later-life turn toward faith, none of which were produced. He argues his approach—‘flesh and blood’ rather than pious ‘incense’—left the projects stranded between religious and secular financing worlds.
- •Three Christian scripts written; none produced
- •A priest’s note: scripts needed ‘more incense’ (more piety/tones)
- •Eszterhas insists on grit and realism rather than propaganda
- •Hollywood’s historic discomfort with religious films contrasted with breakout successes
- 26:31 – 48:57
Jesus on film, Gnostic texts, and the Shroud of Turin mystery
The conversation widens into theology and history: depictions of Jesus (Passion, Last Temptation), the ‘cosmeticized’ Jesus versus a radical historical figure, and disputes around gospel authorship and timing. They then dive deep into the Shroud of Turin—carbon dating, contested evidence, and the unresolved mechanics of its image.
- •Praise for The Passion of the Christ as visceral and ‘real’
- •Last Temptation controversy; discussion of Mary Magdalene historical claims
- •Eszterhas’ view of Jesus as political/revolutionary ‘freedom fighter’ figure
- •Debate about gospel authorship and chronology; mention of Gnostic gospels
- •Shroud of Turin: 1988 carbon dating vs contamination/repair arguments; image formation theories and lack of consensus
- 48:57 – 55:47
Conversion story: cancer, recovery, prayer—and conflicts with the Catholic Church
Eszterhas explains how stage-four throat cancer and a pioneering surgery catalyzed a return to faith, deep study, and daily prayer. While his Christianity deepened, his relationship with Catholicism became more complicated due to institutional issues like sexism, antisemitism history, and claims of infallibility.
- •Stage-four throat cancer; groundbreaking surgery and long recovery
- •Faith reawakening through fear, reading, Naomi’s influence, and returning to Mass
- •Prayer as a core part of his survival narrative
- •Growing critique of Catholic institutional history and authority
- •Preference for emotionally expressive worship (especially Black church traditions)
- 55:47 – 1:01:17
Civil-rights era encounters and the chaos of 1970s Rolling Stone culture
Eszterhas recounts direct civil-rights experiences—threats in Mississippi, meeting MLK, knowing Stokely Carmichael and Huey Newton—alongside the sexual and cultural revolution atmosphere at Rolling Stone in the early ‘70s. Rogan and Eszterhas connect these eras to shifting norms, including the impact and risks of birth control.
- •Civil-rights involvement: threatened by armed deputy; lunch/ride with MLK
- •Knowing Stokely Carmichael and Huey Newton; proximity to political movements
- •Rolling Stone (1971–1976) as a ‘vortex’ of cultural and sexual revolution
- •Topless office anecdote and the era’s boundary-pushing norms
- •Birth control pill: social impact, hormonal effects, and health risks (smoking/clots)
- 1:01:17 – 1:34:32
Hunter S. Thompson: friendship, mentorship, and the cost of living too hard
Eszterhas credits Thompson with changing his life—opening doors at Rolling Stone, enabling his book success, and indirectly launching his screenwriting career. They share vivid stories (strip-club chaos, Mick & Keith’s slashed tires, Thompson’s decline), then broaden into how writers define eras, alcoholism’s grip, and why art matters.
- •Hunter’s letter praising Eszterhas’ Hells Angels story; pushes Rolling Stone to hire him
- •Thompson helps publish Charlie Simpson’s Apocalypse; UA recruiter leads to screenwriting break
- •Wild personal anecdotes: acid trips, strip-club ‘Where’s the pussy?’ moment, Stones tire-shooting story
- •Discussion of Thompson’s decline, suicide note (‘no fun anymore’), and booze’s long-term damage
- •Writing, alcohol, and ‘silencing the voices’; art/entertainment as cultural force and relief
- 1:34:32 – 2:11:04
Kinison, Hendrix, and closing reflections on excess, recovery, and community
The final stretch jumps between comedy and music legends: Sam Kinison’s impact, Eszterhas’ feud-letter to agent Michael Ovitz, and a surreal Jimi Hendrix lunch in a Hungarian restaurant. Eszterhas reflects on surviving decades of smoking, drinking, and cancer, and both men end on the power of worship, authenticity, and shared human ‘vibe.’
- •Sam Kinison dedicates an album thanks to Eszterhas’ Ovitz letter; talk of Kinison’s revolutionary era
- •Ovitz threat story (‘put you under the ground’) and the public fallout
- •Eszterhas’ Jimi Hendrix interview + Hungarian restaurant paprikash feast (‘Hungary, Hungary!’)
- •‘Grim Reaper’ joke: interviewing Hendrix/Joplin/Morrison/Otis before deaths; 27 Club mention
- •Sobriety, quitting smoking/drinking, faith alignment, and the transformative effect of communal experiences
