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Joe Rogan Experience #2508 - Joe Eszterhas

Joe Eszterhas is an author, former journalist for “Rolling Stone,” and screenwriter known for films such as “Basic Instinct,” “Sliver,” “Showgirls,” and “Flashdance.” https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000390/ Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Use code ROGAN at https://BlueChew.com to get 10% OFF + Free Overnight Shipping on your first order. Open an account in minutes at https://Chime.com/Rogan

Joe Eszterhasguest
Jun 3, 20262h 11mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:02

    Intro

    1. JR

      [upbeat music]

  2. 0:02 – 2:07

    Dogon-crafted cane and a detour into cosmic mythology

    1. JR

      Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night. All day. [upbeat music] Let's rock and roll.

    2. JE

      Okay, let's rock and roll.

    3. JR

      You need the headphones?

    4. JE

      Never.

    5. JR

      No? Okay. Um, would you-

    6. JE

      If it's okay, if it's okay with you. I-

    7. JR

      Oh

    8. JE

      ... I know I've seen it both ways on the show, but.

    9. JR

      No, you don't have to wear them.

    10. JE

      Okay.

    11. JR

      You, you were telling me about your cane. That cane is amazing.

    12. JE

      It is, it's amazing. It's, uh, it's carved by the Dogon people who are, who are in, in Mali. And the, the, uh, it's a family that's been doing it for 100 years, and many of them, um, were killed in the Rwandan wars. Um, it, it's, it's heavy. It's beautifully done, I think, and it's been a, a close companion of mine for many years. It seems to be indestructible. [laughs]

    13. JR

      It's pretty awesome looking.

    14. JE

      Thank you.

    15. JR

      It looks heavy.

    16. JE

      Thank you.

    17. JR

      The Dogon people have a very strange origin story.

    18. JE

      Do they?

    19. JR

      It's a fascinating origin story that involves... Is it, uh... The, it involves, like... Here it is. Th- that's, I don't want, I didn't want to misspeak. So here it is. Um, centers on the supreme creator Amma and the cosmic journey of the amphibious water spirits known as the Nommo. So they have this crazy cosmic origin story that's a part of their mythology. "Amma then attempted to procreate with the earth, but the pairing was flawed." It's, like, a very strange descendant of the ark. A- according to the Dogon traditions, "The Nommo descended to earth from the Sirius star system in a giant ark-like vessel. The vessel contained the eight original human ancestors, along with the seeds and animals needed to populate the world." Those are the Dogon people.

    20. JE

      It's amazing. It's amazing.

    21. JR

      Amazing.

    22. JE

      I, I didn't know that. That's amazing.

    23. JR

      Crazy story.

    24. JE

      My, I have a daughter who's a nature photographer, um, and does a lot of work in Africa. And, um, and, uh, she knows all about that stuff.

  3. 2:07 – 3:39

    Zelenskyy watching Basic Instinct—and the shock of cultural ripple effects

    1. JR

      So you were telling me before we got rolling, I said, "Save this for the air," that [laughs] Volodymyr Zelenskyy and his wife have seen Basic Instinct how many times?

    2. JE

      15, at least 15. There's a recent biography-

    3. JR

      [laughs]

    4. JE

      ... that, that said that, that it, uh, began when they were courting, and that they had known each other before. And one day she saw him with, with this tape in his hand. She said, "What is it?" And he said, "Basic Instinct." And they, then they saw it together, and it had such an effect on them that they, that they played it together many times, at least 15 times, during, on their anniversaries.

    5. JR

      [laughs]

    6. JE

      Now, [laughs] I'm not sure what that says. And, you know, and I, and I know that some people think the movies had a kind of amatory effect on them. But the other thing that's interesting to me is if you see it 15 times, does, does it really fuck you up to the point where you go to war with v- with, with, with, uh, with Putin?

    7. JR

      [laughs]

    8. JE

      I mean, is that the real key to why it happened? Um-

    9. JR

      Well, in his defense, Putin attacked first, right?

    10. JE

      Absolutely.

    11. JR

      But it's-

    12. JE

      And, and I like Zelenskyy very much as a figure, and I'm, and I'm very sympathetic to the Ukrainians because I'm, I've got a Hungarian background. And in 1956, the Russians devastated Hungary in a similar freedom fight. So, um, maybe, maybe it gave him the balls and the wisdom to go after Putin.

    13. JR

      Maybe it just been a warning.

    14. JE

      [laughs] Yeah.

    15. JR

      Who knows? Might have nothing to do with the war.

    16. JE

      Might, might not.

    17. JR

      You made some crazy fucking movies, man.

    18. JE

      [laughs]

    19. JR

      You really did.

  4. 3:39 – 5:14

    The 'twisted little man' in the writer’s head and Basic Instinct 3 plans

    1. JE

      It, well, there are 18 of them that have been made, and there have been, like, 34 scripts that hadn't, they've been, so there's 16 that haven't been made. And, and I don't know. You know, I, I kid around and I say there's a twisted little man inside me who lives in some spot that I'm not sure where it exactly is.

    2. JR

      [laughs]

    3. JE

      But he's 29, born 29. He will die 29. And with anything that has a relatively strong sexual content, he wrote the fucking thing. I'm just an old guy giving him the space, you know? So when the, when the recent deal was made for a record amount of money for Basic Instinct 3, 'cause, uh, there was a sequel to it that was, that was a total piece of shit, and I had nothing to do with. But this would be three, and my title for it is, is Basic Instinct: Jezebel. Um, the, um, twisted little man put together this story, um, that I, that I think people will have fun with. But it's, but it's, it continues in that same vein, and it seems to be his specialty, you know? So let's see what happens.

    4. JR

      I like how you refer to yourself as, like, another person.

    5. JE

      [laughs] Yeah. It is-

    6. JR

      The twisted man. [laughs]

    7. JE

      There is, you know, there's a thing with, with little kids where they have an, have a companion, an invisible companion, right? And the twisted little man is my main one. I have others. Mark Twain is one, and interestingly, Jesus of Nazareth is another. You know? And then these, these people are very, very close to me. Twisted little man is a darker presence than the others are. Though, though Twain is a cross between the two of them, and I absolutely love him.

  5. 5:14 – 9:27

    Writing Basic Instinct in 13 days: affair, cop psychology, coke, and the Stones

    1. JR

      So when you were writing things like Basic Instinct, do, do you really feel like you were channeling, like, another person? Is that what it felt like?

    2. JE

      It felt... Well, let me tell you the backdrop. The, the, uh, I wrote it in 13 days. Um, the, um, um, and, and then, and then, then I, then I felt like, like it, it just poured out of me. And there is a background to it, and that is that the Catherine Tramell character and then the Nick Curran character, um, many, many years before in college, um, I had an affair with a, I was an 18-year-old kid and I had an affair with a faculty member's wife. Um, and it was a serious affair. And, and the, the, um, we-

    3. JR

      Be, be, be, be, be, be, be

    4. JE

      She was sophisticated, smart, beautiful, um, uh, sassy, um, um, and exactly the kind of woman I've always fallen for. And the, the, um... And she had a profound effect on me. Now, at, at the end of the, at the end of the year, she moved on, and I discovered that there was a different student that she was with each, each year-

    5. JR

      [laughs]

    6. JE

      ... and that her husband looked the other way. Um, the, uh-

    7. JR

      How old was she?

    8. JE

      39. And I w- I was 18. I was a very green 18, because I grew up an ethnic immigrant kid. Um, the, uh, the, the, um, the, I, I, I fell in love easily. Um, but falling in love easily also meant a lot in terms of learning things, 'cause I, I was an immigrant, and I really didn't know this country, and I was shy. Um, and, and I learned a lot sometimes, I think, more from the, from the women that I was together with, the beginning in college and through the rest of my life then. And I preferred the company of women always, um, because they weren't-

    9. JR

      Yeah

    10. JE

      ... armored off in, in male macho.

    11. JR

      Right.

    12. JE

      Um, but, but anyway, she was stuck there in my memory. And then when I was a police reporter, um, almost a, a d- decade and a half later, um, a decade later at The Plain Dealer, I had a buddy who was a cop that I liked very much, who had been involved in three or four shootings. Um, and when we got to know each other, and we spent time drinking together, and we did a lot of that, I started wondering how, if he really liked the shootings. Be- be- be, was it, was it an itchy trigger finger, or did he just, he get off on it? So somehow, these two characters were in my head, and, and, and I thought about them a lot. But they didn't come together. And then, I think thanks to the twisted little man, one day the two came together in, in, in a love story. And that was the orig- that was the genesis of Basic Instinct. Um, and by the time I, I wrote it, I had thought about it, uh, subconsciously and, and directly for a long time. I would wake up in the middle of the night, um, and, and jot notes down, which happens to me sometimes when I'm, when I'm very involved in a script. Um, and it, I wrote it in, in Hawaii. Um, I went off to Hawaii by myself. I let the sun beat me up. I snorted some coke.

    13. JR

      [laughs]

    14. JE

      Um, the, uh... Which, uh, which was an habit in those days. Um, and after 13 days of, of all of that... And the other thing I did was listen to the Stones all the time. I love the Stones. I lo- I loved the blues from the time I was an immigrant kid, and the Stones just blew everything else out during that period of time for me. So I listened to that. At the end of 13 days, the, I had this script. Um, then I went, went back home to Marin, um, typed it up, sent it, almost sent it to my agent with the title Love Hurts, and I was going out the door. The twisted little man had another thought, and I raced back inside and wrote the words Basic Instinct. Sent it to my agents. They auctioned it. Um, 10 days later, my a- main agent, Guy McElwaine, who became my big brother, and, and, um, and, and, uh, one of the people I really loved in life, everybody bid on it. Um, the, it wound up selling for a record $3 million. Um, and then it became a towering hit. To this day, it trends. Um, the,

  6. 9:27 – 11:21

    Critics, backlash, and eventual reappraisal as a 'post-feminist classic'

    1. JE

      uh, and, um, and it's now gotten... The critics in the beginning were, um, critical, um, mildly critical. No, actually, the, the critics were really after the movie. And then through the years, um, the, the critics have had a change of mind, and-

    2. JR

      Isn't that funny?

    3. JE

      Yeah. It just, uh, the, the woman named Camille Paglia, who was a main feminist critic, um, who went, went up against the movie very strongly recently, not recently, but in the past five or 10 years, has come around and said that, that, that, that the movie is the example of, it's a post-feminist classic, she says, and it's about women who don't, who don't have to hide their sexuality. Um, so in certain-

    4. JR

      That's wild that she made such a turnaround.

    5. JE

      Yeah. Yeah.

    6. JR

      I wonder, did you e- ever have a conversation with her?

    7. JE

      No. I, I've never met her. She teaches, um, somewhere on the East Coast, and, and, uh, she has a towering reputation, but I've never met her. I usually don't listen to critics. As through the 18 films, I, you know, I don't, I don't listen to critics. I worked with a director, Richard Marquand, who directed, uh, Jagged Edge, and Hearts- excuse me, and Hearts Afire, and we worked on another, another one together. And, and Richard, uh, said to me that, uh, "Critics should be taken out into the backyard and shot."

    8. JR

      [laughs]

    9. JE

      Okay? Worked with another director, Mike Figgis, on One Night Stand, who said that critics should be taken out of the ba- backyard and head-butted to death.

    10. JR

      [laughs]

    11. JE

      [laughs] I was sympathetic to both, to both things. [laughs]

    12. JR

      It's so wild that your views were formed by this relationship that you had when you were 18 with an older, horny, smart lady-

    13. JE

      [laughs]

    14. JR

      ... who's, like, you know, kinda wild.

    15. JE

      Yes.

    16. JR

      And then a cop-

    17. JE

      Yes

    18. JR

      ... who might have been a shady cop.

    19. JE

      Yes. And, and how the two came together in, in this-

    20. JR

      Yeah

    21. JE

      ... in this twisted thing called creativity, you know? And they may-

    22. JR

      Yeah

  7. 11:21 – 16:55

    Police-beat trauma and civil unrest: the darkness behind the writing

    1. JE

      ... come out of this maelstrom. Um, now, the other thing I'm sure was an influence is by the time I did that, I'd been through four years of police beat experience covering cops. Um, two in Dayton, Ohio, and two in Cleveland. And [coughs] excuse me, and that consisted of, at that point, of driving around in a company car that got the police radio, um, and responding to whatever was going on. On occasion, you got there before the cops got there. Um, and, and then the, the one that really stuck in my head and, and, uh, got inside me was, was there was one when the, the report of a, the shooting- A suburb in Dayton, and I got there, um, th- and there were no cops there. The, the w- the front door was, uh, wide open. I walked in. Um, I, I, I passed, um, the body of a guy who, who had shot himself, and there was blood all over the wall. And then a woman, um, who was his wife, that he'd shot. And I heard someone in the back of the house screaming and crying. And then, then I walked, went back there. And the, the thing that was really got to me is she was screaming and crying in Hungarian. Um, the... And it was an old lady who, who was the, the mother, his mom. Um, and, and of course I spoke fluent Hungarian. I grew up Hungarian. Um, and, uh, and there was something about the scene that, that's with me to this day. The other police beat experience I had, Joe, that was, um, that was very moving was I covered the, the Glenville urban uprising in Cleveland. It was a big one, and there were, uh, I think, six or seven policemen, um, shot and killed. Um, the... I was crouched behind a, um, a, a, a car on the street, ducking down with, with, uh, about 10 feet in front of me was a c- was a cop bleeding, badly bleeding, moaning. Um, and who the, the, the, um... And, and at the same time, there were gunshots coming from the, from this apartment house. And I heard that the, that the gunshots were coming from a group of so-called Black nationalists led by a man named Fred Ahmed Evans. I knew both men. I, I knew from the police beat. Um, the, the, uh, the, the cop, um, was Hungarian. Um, his name was Elmer Joseph. Um, and he would come around to the little office in the police beat all the time, and I knew him. And, and the Black man was named Fred Ahmed Evans. Um, and he would come by in his dashiki sometimes at 2:00 in the morning because I worked the overnight shift sometimes. And we had the greatest talks. You know, d- drank a lot of beer and smoked a lot of dope, um, and got to be pals. And he was leading the group of, of, of Black nationalists and who had been, who were shooting these policemen. And I was behind this g- this g- this car's wheels a few feet away from the whole shit.

    2. JR

      Whoa.

    3. JE

      And I, and I found the whole thing so frightening and so disturbing that I pissed my pants.

    4. JR

      Jesus Christ.

    5. JE

      Um, the, the, um... So the, the four years of police b- there were other incidents I covered. The, the urban uprisings in, in, uh, Detroit, two in Cleveland, and one in Newark. Um, the... I was very involved in the civil rights movement. Um, the, um... And I, you know, the, th- that's what I did. I, I covered whatever was breaking, and much of it was dark stuff. Um, so by the time that hookup happened between Catherine, um, Catherine Tramell and Nick Curran, it, there was a lot that went into it.

    6. JR

      Yeah, I could imagine. Like, what... The insane life experience, to be able to see all those different crime scenes-

    7. JE

      Yeah

    8. JR

      ... and witness all that and just-

    9. JE

      You know, the, what happened was that I happened to pick a field, um, w- that, that journalism, I thought, and, and so did Hunter. It'd been one of the things, uh, we became friends. We were both poor kids, the, and we both dreamed of being novelists. Novelists. Um, the, the-

    10. JR

      You mean Hunter Thompson?

    11. JE

      Y- yeah, Hunter Thompson. Um, and the, the way that we chose to begin that was by doing journalism because no one made a living writing novels, and we both had to make a living. Um, so the, the, Hunter w- wrote stuff for the National Enquirer and then moved on to Rolling Stone and all of that. And I did it on a, on a local level. And the, the, that put us into a culture that was exploding. Um, the American society was exploding. The, the, the, the Black situation vis-à-vis white racism was horrendous. Um, so there, there was a dynamic in the country, um, that we were on top of because of what we did. So I saw a lot. Um, I saw a lot in the refugee camps because I was in, I began my seven years in refugee camps in Austria, and then grew up, um, dirt poor in an urban city. Um, the, the, um... And, uh, I saw a lot of, a lot of stuff there as well that was, that was dark and moving and, and, uh, and, and profoundly effective.

    12. JR

      Well, also, so when you're writing, you're writing from real-world experience.

    13. JE

      Yeah.

    14. JR

      Which is so much more effective, and makes sense why your stuff was so dark and wild.

  8. 16:55 – 24:15

    From refugee camps to Rolling Stone: life as source material (and Otis Redding)

    1. JE

      Yeah. It does make sense. The, the, um, and the, you know, I mean, and, and I was, when I was a, I was a kid in Cleveland growing up. Um, we lived in, in a very poor part of town, the Near West Side. Um, and there was a boy next door. Um, and the, um... And I used to say, m- um, I slept, uh, in the, on a couch in the living room that sort of overlooked the bar. And when, one night, um, and I was looking out the window 'cause I always was. The, the, the neon lights and Puerto Rican hookers and all of that stuff that really interested a little kid who would spend most of his time, uh, playing with my, as Mark Twain said, with his pecker. You know, so, and, uh, so this was all very exciting stuff. Um, and the, and one, one night I was watching one, one day and I saw this man on this stab another one to death and fall down and bleed to death.

    2. JR

      Oh, gee. How old were you?

    3. JE

      12.

    4. JR

      Oh, Jesus.

    5. JE

      Um, yeah. So, um, th- there are reasons why... The other thing with my scripts is almost everything in my scripts is somehow comes from some kind of personal tie. You know, Big Shots, um, which was a little movie that, that was very popular with kids- Came from my son Steve's experience, um, in, in Marin County w- w- with a Black friend and how they tried to make that friendship work. Um, and that's what the movie is. It's a little movie about two kids, a white kid and a Black kid, um, and them trying to become friends. Um, the, uh, the, the, the ... There was a movie I did called Checking Out with Jeff Daniels, and that was about midlife crisis, and suddenly now at the, in my early to mid-30s, I was scared shitless that I was going to die. And, and here I am at fucking 81 talking about [laughs] dying at 30-something. Um, but, but so there was, there was a comedic thing that came out of that. Um, and Basic came out of where it, where it did. Um, but there was almost with every one, there was some kind of ... Betrayed came out of, out of the notion that at that particular point, if you remember, there was all this right-wing craziness where there were militias that, that were shooting people and, and, uh, there were jamborees where the, where the right-wingers got together. Um-

    6. JR

      When was this?

    7. JE

      Betrayed, which, which came out in the mid-'80s. There were several incidents in Oregon and in, in the Northwest parts of the country which got a lot of publicity. It was before Timothy McVeigh, um, but, but all roughly in that same period. So I decided under a, under a false name to go to one of these jamborees and see what the hell was going on, and, uh, essentially my journalism experience, I went into it, and then out of it I concocted this romance between Debra Winger and Tom Berenger. So, but they, they all had some kind of a tie. Telling Lies in America, which is one of my favorite little movies with, uh, Kevin Bacon and Brad Renfro, is semi-autobi- autobiographical in terms of the issues I had as a high school kid w- w- with bullying and all of those kinds of things, um, and the, uh, and becoming an American citizen. Um, and the, uh, there was Shot, um, incidentally right where I grew up in front of the apartment house where we lived. Um, the, um ... And I remember hearing a TV reporter in Cleveland interview an old man, um, was watching the, the, uh, the shooting and saying, um, "Did, did you know Joe when he grew up here?" And he said, "Yeah, I was a bartender there." And he then he said, "Shit, Joe is just a fucking refugee trying to make his way in the world." [laughs] That's, he nailed it. I mean, that's really what, not a complicated thing, but that's really what happened. The only, the other, the only other, other things, and nice things have been said about me through the years, but the only other thing that's, that I really treasure and absolutely love is, uh, I covered, I interviewed Otis Redding the night before he was killed in a plane crash in Cleveland. And the, the, um, we started, we began speaking around midnight after a show at a place called Leo's Casino. Um, and, uh, and, uh, we began talking around midnight and talked till 3:30 in the morning. Um, and the, uh, we did a lot of beer. We did a lot of Jim Beam. We smoked a lot of really powerful Thai stuff, um, and had a great time. And at the end of it when, when he had to, he had to go, go, he, he, he said, "Give me a fucking hug," and I gave him a hug. And he said, "You know what you are?" He said, "You're a fucking white nigger, that's what you are."

    8. JR

      [laughs]

    9. JE

      And I, I love that. It stayed with me all this time. The New York Times said he's a force of nature. People said if Shakespeare were alive today, his name would be Joe Eszterhas. Fuck all that. It's bullshit. What Otis said and what the old man said I thought was really great, you know? [laughs]

    10. JR

      Well, hearing that, Otis Redding was such a legend.

    11. JE

      Oh, he was, he was a great-

    12. JR

      He died so young, too. How old was he?

    13. JE

      He died, he died, he was really, I would say in his 30-something. But listen to this. The, the, I interviewed him, then went home. The next day at the Plain Dealer, I, it was Sunday and I was working, um, literally the day after the interview. And, uh, so I'm sitting there in, in, in this hall-like city room, and the, the, I see a city editor. The, the, the Associated Press wire machine started dinging, and in those days, if it had more than like four or five dings, there was some bad thing that happened. So I sit, and I saw the city editor come from the city desk to this dinging machine, right? And he's staring at it. The fucking thing is still dinging. He's staring at it, and then he looks at me like that in, in the city room, and then he looks away. So and I, I, I, I saw that, and then I got up and went to, to, to the dinging machine, and Otis, his plane had, had crashed, um, the, uh, the way to another gig. Um, and I, I was probably the last man who really spoke to him at, at length.

    14. JR

      Wow.

    15. JE

      Um, the, um, I left the office right then and just said, "Fuck it," for the rest of the day. There was a bar across the street, um, and drank myself silly and went home with the waitress. I mean, I just-

    16. JR

      [laughs]

    17. JE

      You know, it was just horrible. But, but I saw a lot, to get back to your point, Joe. I did, and in different ways. Incidentally, I tried to write a movie about Otis called Blaze of Glory. Um, and the, the, um, we put it together. A man named John Abetz was going to direct it, and the, it was announced that Cuba Gooding was gonna play Otis. And the, the whole thing fell apart at the last minute for financing reasons, and to this day it's never gotten made. But, um, I'm a writer. What else can I do with someone that I loved in a meeting except write about them in that way, right? So, so it didn't-

    18. JR

      Well, anybody who writes interesting things the way you do has to have had some interesting life experiences. You, you don't get those kind of scripts that you wrote from a, a sterile environment.

  9. 24:15 – 26:31

    Christian screenplays that Hollywood and church gatekeepers wouldn’t fund

    1. JE

      Yeah. No, I, I agree with that. Yeah. Sometimes Um, not that I, the, the, um, after my, my conversion to Chris- to, to, to Christianity later, later in my life, I wrote three, um, Christian scripts, and none of them were made. Um, and one of the, one of them wasn't made, wasn't, wasn't made because, um, the, one of the priests involved with potentially getting Christian financing [sniffs] said that we need more incense, right? And my response to, to, to somebody who interviewed me about it was, "I don't write fucking incense. I write flesh and blood." [laughs] You know, so, so no wonder it wasn't made.

    2. JR

      What did he mean by you need more incense?

    3. JE

      Well, the, the, um, to make it more him-like, to make, make and to give it a sense of piety, um, to, to, to take... To, to make it inspire the people so that they become, um, Catholic in this specific case, and that it was too secular. Um, and, and I think what happened to me with all three is that I fell between pews, be- between so-called Christian films and secular films.

    4. JR

      Mm.

    5. JE

      Um, and, uh, and so the, the, that's why we never got to finance for all three of them. And then-

    6. JR

      When you say you fell between Christian films and secular films-

    7. JE

      Yeah

    8. JR

      ... you mean in the way you were writing it, that you weren't writing it specifically as a Christian film-

    9. JE

      Yeah

    10. JR

      ... or specifically as a secular film? It was a combination.

    11. JE

      The way, the way I was writing it naturally, the, the-

    12. JR

      Right

    13. JE

      ... without-

    14. JR

      Like you wrote everything else.

    15. JE

      Yeah, without political considerations or, or certain, or clerical s- clerical considerations. I was just writing it from my heart, and that was too gritty to get Christian kind of financing, and on the other hand, too religious to get the secular financing.

    16. JR

      That's too bad, because that bridge-

    17. JE

      It's too-

    18. JR

      ... is probably what would bring more people to Christianity, where they could relate to it.

    19. JE

      I, I agree with you absolutely, and then my argument was, you know, the, the, these could be hit movies, 'cause my movies in a lot of cases have been these could be hit movies, and that's more important than, than, than, than, uh, spiking people with incense, right, you know?

  10. 26:31 – 48:57

    Jesus on film, Gnostic texts, and the Shroud of Turin mystery

    1. JR

      It's interesting how Hollywood has a- always rejected those kind of religion film, religious films, like, uh, "The Passion of the Christ"-

    2. JE

      Right

    3. JR

      ... for instance. That was a huge movie.

    4. JE

      Well, it was not a hu- not just a huge movie, but in my mind, um, it was like a prayer. You know, the, uh, I watch it each Good Friday, um, and it was a huge movie, beautifully done. Um, and the, um, the, uh, it wasn't, it wasn't officially endorsed by the Catholic Church, although I saw, I saw in Cleveland a, a meeting where, where a priest organized a preview, um, screening of the movie, and they had, like, 700 people, the full hall watching it. There was such an interest in it. But part of it, part of the reason, I think, and you, you raise a good point because I think part of the reason, um, it was such a towering hit was that it was real. It, it wasn't, it wasn't incense-filled.

    5. JR

      Right.

    6. JE

      It was real. There was b- you got a figure who bled, and you really show what happened up on that cross and how awful-

    7. JR

      Yeah

    8. JE

      ... that kind of pain is, you know, and the, the movie really reflected that.

    9. JR

      No, it was horrific. And then there was also that Willem Dafoe film. What was that one called?

    10. JE

      "The, The Last Temptation of Christ."

    11. JR

      That's right. That's right.

    12. JE

      It's Marty Scorsese. Yeah.

    13. JR

      Yeah.

    14. JE

      Yeah. The, uh, I agree with that. The, I alway- I love Willem Dafoe. I mean, he's one of my favorite actors. Um, the, and, and I like that it's also very real, that historically real.

    15. JR

      Yeah.

    16. JE

      You know, the, the, the, the notion that, that Je- Jesus of Nazareth, um, you know, was this Fred Rogers figure, um, who wasn't really a real man, whereas the Bible says he was a true man and true God, um, the, that shows, really showed his, that film really showed his human side.

    17. JR

      Yeah.

    18. JE

      And, and my conception of Jesus, who I revere and who is one of my, one of my close friends that I speak, speak to on most days, um, the, uh, is that he was a true man and true God. He was a Jewish zealot, a freedom fighter against the Roman Empire. Um, he was crucified by the Romans. Um, the, the, as a freedom fighter, he hung around blue-collar guys and, and, uh, and fishermen and hookers and tax collectors who were the lowest of the low back then, as they should be now. But they were [laughs] the lowest of the low back then, and those were the people that he pr- primarily bu- buddied around with. That's, that's the Jesus of Nazareth, and, and, and that, that side is, is completely ignored by most films except the two that you mentioned specifically. They're like that.

    19. JR

      Yeah, "The Last Temptation of the Christ," I don't remember... I remember there was some controversy around it, but I don't, I was too young to really be paying attention to, like, how-

    20. JE

      The, it was the very fact that Jesus had a relationship that was clearly indicated as being sexual with Mary Magdalene, who was depicted as a prostitute. Now, the truth, historical truth, is that Mary Magdalene was a few years older than Jesus, and a woman of means who had advised, um, advised, um, Roman builders in a, in a city called Seraphin, and then was one of the people who financed Jesus as he swept through Galilee and then, and the rest of Judea. Um, a, a, there's another scene in the, in the Bible where, where an unnamed woman, um, goes to Jesus and, and the, the, washes his feet, um, and then washes his feet with his hair, right? This unnamed woman by a pope in the sixth century, Gregory the Great- was picked to have been Mary Magdalene. No connection to Mary Magdalene. There's no, no, no, not- nothing that says that Mary Magdalene was a hooker of any kind. And then there's no proof for that in any way. So the fact that The Last Temptation of Christ did that, and, and, and, and, and, and brought the two of them together in a sort of semi l- love story w- without, of course, any real, um, sexuality to it on film is why it was so criticized. Scorsese's house was picketed, and, and I think the studio at that point was run by Lou Wasserman, whom I knew from, from Cleveland be- because he was a, he was a, um, he ran a racing wire in Cleveland before he went, but, but he was a legendary man. His house was, was picketed as well.

    21. JR

      So was it just, uh, Catholic people and Christian people that were upset about this?

    22. JE

      Mostly, yeah.

    23. JR

      Yeah.

    24. JE

      Absolutely, yeah.

    25. JR

      But it was un- it was very unusual for a Martin Scorsese film to be a religious film, too.

    26. JE

      Absolutely.

    27. JR

      Like, a depiction of Jesus. It... People were much more averse back then. I f- I feel like sometimes, like, religion goes in, like, peaks and waves.

    28. JE

      Right.

    29. JR

      And, and I think there was a wave of atheism back then, and Hollywood was very non-Christian, to put it mildly.

    30. JE

      Yes.

  11. 48:57 – 55:47

    Conversion story: cancer, recovery, prayer—and conflicts with the Catholic Church

    1. JR

      What led to your conversion to Christianity? I mean, from a guy making these wild-

    2. JE

      [laughs]

    3. JR

      ... insane movies.

    4. JE

      Jamie, could I ask you for some water?

    5. JR

      There's water right here.

    6. JE

      Oh, great. Thank you.

    7. JR

      This episode is brought to you by Chime. Chime is bringing something fresh to banking. JD Power just ranked them the number one choice for new bank accounts in America, and that's not a small thing. That means real people, millions of them, are choosing this over traditional banks. That's because banking at Chime is fee-free. No monthly fees, no overdraft fees, and thousands of free ATMs. But here's the real kicker. If you get their Chime card, it gives you 5% cash back on a category that you actually pick yourself. Your savings rate, nine times the national average. That's crazy high. Go to chime.com/rogan. Takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com/disclosures for more details. How long ago did you convert to Christianity?

    8. JE

      Well, I grew up Catholic. Um, I was an altar boy when I was a kid. Um, the, um, I knew one really great priest in my life who helped me with, uh, my life. Um, the, I became a lapsed Catholic. And then when, um, the, at, at the tail end of living in, in, um, in LA, in Malibu actually, I was, I was usually successful as a screenwriter, of course. And, and, um, the, um, and I would, and I was being interviewed all over the place, and people were stealing mail from my mailbox and all that shit. And, and, um, I, I, I should've been overwhelmingly happy with that, but something was missing, I felt. And I couldn't really put my finger on what that was, but something was missing in my life. Um, the, and then I got throat cancer, um, stage four throat cancer, um, the, uh, shortly after we moved back to Cleveland, you know, the, uh, from, from Malibu. And then the, the Cleveland Clinic and then, and a surgeon named Marshall Strome did a surgery that they had never done in this country. They'd done it in Switzerland, um, where they took some, they took the, a muscle from the left side of your neck and attach it to your larynx. Stage four was very dicey, and, and he was very honest with me about how dicey it would be. And he did it spectacularly, and, and here I am, um, at 81. Um, the, but in the course of all of that, when I was, when I was terrified and, and, and, um, and, uh, and, and, and really frightened from one day to the other, um, I ran across Jesus, um, reading. And, and partly Naomi's influence, because Naomi also grew up Catholic, and she had a, a, um, very, the strong, um, the, the con- um, the, the very strong faith. And then, then I went to church a couple of times. Um, and I, and I loved the mass, um, the, the mass itself. Um, and in the c- in the course of recovery, and it was about a t- three-year recovery. I, for, for a l- for some time I couldn't speak. And then I spoke like Brando. Um, and then I squeaked. Um, the, um, the, in the course of my recovery, I did everything I could physically to help. I, I jogged and walked and did all of those things. Um, and I, I recovered. Um, and I felt afterwards that the, that the reason I was able to beat a stage four cancer had to do with my prayer life. Um, and then I started reading, um, voraciously about Jesus of Nazareth and the apostles and all, all of that ancient Jewish history, um, Catholic history. Um, and some of that really moved me as well. Um, the, the, um... So I started going regularly to church [clears throat] with Naomi, and then as the b- boys were born, even with the, with the boys as well. And as time went by, [clears throat] excuse me. As time went by, um, the, I also started having issues with the Catholic Church. Um, I continued going to the mass because that, that was a very special thing to me. But I had issues with, with the history of anti-Semitism in the church, um, the issues with sexism in terms of not allowing women to be priests, um, the, um, the, the, the issues with the, with the, the pope making so-called infallible decisions. And I just shut n- most of that off. Although in the process of it, my Christianity didn't suffer at all. But, but sometimes I felt like I was becoming a kind of an agnostic Catholic. Um, the, um... And my, and my faith in Christ and, and, and, and even as all of that happened is unflagged. Um, I still pray to Jesus, pray specifically to Jesus. Um, the, um- And he is con- con- con- continues to be a major important figure in my life

    9. JR

      So your issues were with the organization-

    10. JE

      Yes

    11. JR

      ... as the Catholic Church?

    12. JE

      Yes. Yes.

    13. JR

      Yeah.

    14. JE

      Yes.

    15. JR

      Well, that-

    16. JE

      I, I respected Martin Luther's, um, revolution be- because he revolted against those same kind of issues.

    17. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    18. JE

      But the, the, um, the, um, as I said at the, in the mass continued to hold me. Worship is terrific, and I really believe in it. I actually ... And the kind of worship that really moves me is, is Black spiritual worship, full-scale emotional, "I give myself to you, Jesus" kind of worship. Um, the, um ... And, and I felt, uh, I didn't wanna, that I didn't wanna really switch re- switch religions because I had-

    19. JR

      To Baptist

    20. JE

      ... my basic Christianity, you know, and that's, uh, continues to be important to me.

    21. JR

      So you, you felt moved by, like, Baptist-

    22. JE

      Yeah

    23. JR

      ... Black Baptist churches-

    24. JE

      Black Baptists said they, they, the-

    25. JR

      ... churches

    26. JE

      ... whole emotional-

    27. JR

      Yeah

    28. JE

      ... throw up your arms and say, "Okay, here I am. Take me, Lord." Right? Um-

    29. JR

      Well, it definitely seems a lot more fun.

    30. JE

      It's fun. [laughs]

  12. 55:47 – 1:01:17

    Civil-rights era encounters and the chaos of 1970s Rolling Stone culture

    1. JE

      It's fun. I, the, I also have been very fortunate through the course of my life to have b- Black friends and, and, uh, to, to share the Black culture. I was involved in, in the civil rights movement. I had a shotgun stuck in my belly by a deputy who'd been indicted for killings and told to get the fuck out of Neshoba County. Um, I, I had the good fortune to have lunch with the Reverend Martin Luther King.

    2. JR

      Oh, wow.

    3. JE

      Um, the, um, I knew Stokely Carmichael well.

    4. JR

      What was that like?

    5. JE

      Well, it was one thing, the most amazing thing. He was in town because of a, of a m- m- the death of a m- of a minister in a protest. And, and the, the, the, it was an unheralded appearance, and I think it was probably b- before, um, he became the towering international figure. And the, the, um, the, uh ... He was heading back to the airport, and he couldn't find, couldn't find his ride. And I happened to be right there, and I said, "I can, I can drive you, Reverend, drive you, Reverend King." And he said, "Okay." So we get in, we, we ... On the way to the airport, he said, "Are you hungry? I'm hungry. Can we stop someplace?" I said, "Sure." So we did, and the ... What, what amazed me about the man is that he was more interested almost in hearing about my refugee camp experiences and what that was like and how that worked and all of that. He said he didn't know much about it. Then he really, then he was about, uh, then he was at, about talking about the, the civil rights movement.

    6. JR

      Wow.

    7. JE

      Um, he was very, very moving and a powerful figure. Um, the ... And then I just drove him to the airport. But the, the, the, uh, there was something about the man that was absolutely magnetic, you know, that, and, and that I felt.

    8. JR

      Clearly.

    9. JE

      Yeah. And then, but then I also, and when I was in college, I had a relationship with a young Black woman. Um, the, um, and, and that brought me much closer to, to Black culture. And I mean, as I was an ethnic fucking kid, you know, mean, a refugee. And I certainly needed lessons in that whole cultural area, and I got them. Um, and then I sought them out. Um, and, uh, when, when, when I was at, uh, Rolling Stone, um, Huey Newton was over in Oakland, and he would come over sometimes. Um, the, uh, I think partly, I partly suspect because the, the, at Rolling Stone, we had some of the most beautiful women in the world working there. We didn't have air conditioning, and when it got real hot, they w- they, they didn't wear a top at all. So word about that spread. So [laughs] it was sort of fun.

    10. JR

      They were topless?

    11. JE

      They were topless when the w- when it got real hot.

    12. JR

      What year was this? Was it in the '60s?

    13. JE

      I was at Rolling Stone from '71 to '76.

    14. JR

      Wild times.

    15. JE

      I was right, [laughs] right in there. Um, in the, in the, in, in the, in the years where the, where the cultural revolution was exploding-

    16. JR

      Yeah

    17. JE

      ... the women's revolution was r- was e- was exploding. Um, and then to be at Rolling Stone at that time was like being in the vortex of all of that. You know, the, uh ... And, and, and, uh, and it was a, just a crazed time. You know, the, the, uh, the, the sexual revolution was at its absolute height. Um, and the, the, uh ... I've always, as I said to you, I've always really loved smart, sassy, sexy women. Um, and the whole office was filled with them, [laughs] you know?

    18. JR

      Oh, I'm sure. What year was the birth control pill invented?

    19. JE

      I have no idea. I-

    20. JR

      Let me guess. '65.

    21. JE

      All right.

    22. JR

      '64. Let me guess. I'm just taking a wild swing. I have no idea. Uh, approved by the FDA and introduced to the market in 1960. '68? 60, 6-0. 1960. Interesting. Yeah, well, that had a big factor, right?

    23. JE

      Yes, absolutely.

    24. JR

      Because before, you know, women were in a situation where every time they had sex, they could get pregnant.

    25. JE

      Absolutely. Yeah.

    26. JR

      And then all of a sudden ... But then you've got this pill that's fucking with their hormones that we found out now that-

    27. JE

      Yeah

    28. JR

      ... women that have been on it for long periods of time, they make poor choices in terms-

    29. JE

      Right

    30. JR

      ... of mates, and it, it does a lot of weird stuff. I mean, when you're-

  13. 1:01:17 – 1:34:32

    Hunter S. Thompson: friendship, mentorship, and the cost of living too hard

    1. JE

      You are a big Hunter fan, and, and-

    2. JR

      Huge

    3. JE

      ... and I know, and so am I, and I wanted to talk about him because I really haven't had a chance to talk about him specifically. Um, Hunter really was the cause of my whole huge success, even as a screenwriter. Let me tell you how. Um, the, uh, I, when I was a reporter at the Plain Dealer, and I had read Hunter, of course, um, when he was the National Observer doing those kinds of pieces from Latin America, before he discovered Gonzo. Um, the, um, and, um, and I covered at the Plain Dealer, I covered a, a sh- a Hells Angels shootout of a, of a bar called Bartos Cafe in Cleveland. Um, and I wrote a story about it that the Associated Press picked up and put on their national wire. Um, the... And I get a note, um, shortly afterwards from Hunter Thompson, who had read the story on the AP wire and wrote me a note that said, and I'm barely paraphrasing, "Big fucker, now there are two of us who know how to write about Hells Angels. That really pisses me off."

    4. JR

      [laughs]

    5. JE

      "All the best, Hunter S. Thompson." [laughs] Well-

    6. JR

      That must have been a fun thing to get

    7. JE

      Oh, man, I was, [laughs] I was as, as excited about that as my two sons were to meet Joe Rogan. [laughs] They really, they really... It was really, really something. So okay, so as time goes by, um, and, uh, I get a call from Rolling Stone. No one had heard of it at first. I do a couple of freelance pieces for Rolling Stone, one on Kent State, um, one year afterwards, and the other, I forgot what the other one was. But, um, then, then I get a call from the managing editor, Paul Scanlon, who incidentally was the, wa- was the, was the backbone of the editorial content. He'd come from the, from the Wall Street Journal, and he wanted to take on the New York Times for Rolling Stone. So then, then they wanted me to do a freelance piece on narcotics agents, um, corrupt narcotics agents. So I go out there and, and I discover that, that Hunter had been, been after them to hire me because of that piece, and he, they kept saying he's a good guy and all of that. Um, then when I'm at Rolling Stone, I write a, a, a book called Charlie Simpson's Apocalypse, um, that Hunter loves. By now we know each other, and, and, um, and, and we're friends, and, and, and we enjoy each other's company. And the, then I write this book, and Hunter, um, he gets me his agent, who was the top literary agent in the country, and then gets me his publisher, which is Random House, to, to, to publish it. Then, then, and then to, to boot, blurbs it when, when the book comes out. And somebody at United Artists sees it. Oh, and then the book becomes a finalist for the National Book Award, one of four finalists.

    8. JR

      Wow.

    9. JE

      Okay? So somebody at United Artists reads the book, reads it because she reads all of the finalists, reads the book, calls me out of the blue and says, "You know, you've got really cinematic talent. We... Have, have you thought about writing a script?" And I said, "No, I haven't." And I go to meet them, and they hire me, and I write FIST, all of that, which led to my success in, in, in the screenplays and in the cinema, was thanks to Hunter.

    10. JR

      Wow.

    11. JE

      And the friendship we had was, was, I never... Our friendship was in San Francisco. He lived in, in Woody Creek, um, the, and he would come to town. Our friendship was in town. Um, but we ran a lot together. We enjoyed each other. We drank, um, together. We both liked drinking. Um, on, on occasion we would... Good story. We would go down to... San Francisco was famous for its stripper bar area, I think around O'Farrell Street and stuff, and he and I went down there together. There was a very famous stripper show in one of those clubs. And one of the times we get down there, he of course would take acid before every trip down there.

    12. JR

      [laughs]

    13. JE

      And I wouldn't do acid, but I'd, but I'd s- I did acid once, and Hunter wound up holding me for an hour.

    14. JR

      [laughs]

    15. JE

      Um, the, uh [laughs] but I'm, I was the guy from Cleveland, right? Which he always let me know.

    16. JR

      [laughs]

    17. JE

      "What do you want to hear from fucking Cleveland?" You know? [laughs]

    18. JR

      [laughs]

    19. JE

      Anyway, the, um, I would, I would snort some lines, and we'd go down there. Um, and we were waiting for about an hour, and, you know, the place is filled, but the, the girls haven't come out. And Hunter suddenly gets up, hurls his arms up in the air, and says, "Where's the pussy?"

    20. JR

      [laughs]

    21. JE

      "We want pussy." Right? [laughs] One of the great memories of my life, you know? Of course I settle him down and all of that, and, and then when they, when they start coming, very loudly, he goes, "Finally. Finally, pussy." [laughs]

    22. JR

      [laughs]

    23. JE

      He, he was a, you know, larger than life, no doubt, colorful figure, but, but also what he was, and then I discovered this, um, and he didn't really share this with that many people. He was very, very well-rud... well-read. Um, the, he had a whole other side There was a very sensitive and un-hippie-like s- like side. Um, I, I, I saw it most clearly once, um, the, the... I was married at, at, at the time to a, to a former reporter at the Plain Dealer who was very, very straight and, uh, really rejected the whole hippie thing and, and worked in, in California for a small suburban paper. Um, and Hunter had, had, had, had, had never met her but had heard of her, and he said, "I'd really like to meet her." So we asked him to dinner, and Hunter came to dinner at, at our small, tiny apartment in Novato, and, and, and my wife at the time, um, the, um, cooked a, a Hungarian chicken paprikash dinner. Okay? It's Hungary's most famous meal. Um, and, um, and he sat there with us, and what I discovered was that the boy from Kentucky was there underneath all of that firepower and all of the, all of that larger than life behavior. He was sensitive and quiet and, and the, and, uh, they got along like gangbusters. You know, the... And, and actually, and interestingly, when, when, when I drove him, after dinner I drove him back to town, um, he, [laughs] for the ride back, he derided, berated me because I was having an affair with what he called this hippie chick. And he says, "You have this wonderful wife here, and you're fucking around with this hippie chick." I mean, it, it, true beration and, and anger and, and all of that. He had that side as well. Um, yes, he did. If we had breakfast, it was at 4:00 in the afternoon.

    24. JR

      [laughs]

    25. JE

      And he, he, he, and, and what, what he ordered were four margaritas, six beers, um, and maybe, maybe toast with, uh, with scrambled eggs. Um, and the, and in that sense, he, he had more tolerance than anyone that I'd ever seen, and my tolerance in those days for booze especially was also very high. Um, but, but I'd never seen anybody quite like him. He had a great sense of humor. Um, the, um, the, as the, the many, many years later, um, the, he wanted me to write the screenplay for Rum Diary, and I hadn't seen him in a long time, and I had just met Naomi, uh, which, of course, to whom I've now been married 32 years. And, and the, um, and, and he wanted me to go to Aspen so that we could talk about it. Um, and, and I called Ion, and I said, "Listen, I, I'm head over heels in love with this woman. Um, you know, and, uh, Hunter wants me to go out there. Tell me the truth. What kind of shape is he in?" And Ion sort of pauses, and he says, "Well, he's good." Um, and then he has another pause, and he says, "But, you know, the Stones were in Denver, and, and Mick and Keith had decided to come visit him." So between gigs. So they, they, they, they hire a driver, and they drive up here. Um, and they, they, they have a, they, they, they have a terrific time and... But they're about, they're there about three or four hours, and they've got a gig that night. So they say, "Listen, we gotta go. We got a gig," blah, blah, blah. And Hunter gets all upset and says, "Well, you just got here." And they said, "No, no, we've been here three or four hours," and so, well, he continues to be upset, and he leaves the house. And they're sitting there, and suddenly they hear gunshots.

    26. JR

      [laughs]

    27. JE

      He had gone out and shot the tires out on the, on the, on the Stone- on the Stones' car. [laughs]

    28. JR

      [laughs]

    29. JE

      So I never took Naomi there. I was frightened, too frightened to do it.

    30. JR

      What year was this?

  14. 1:34:32 – 2:11:03

    Kinison, Hendrix, and closing reflections on excess, recovery, and community

    1. JE

      Speaking of stand-up, and I, I want you to know, and I don't think you know, did you know that Sam Kinison dedicated a CD to me?

    2. JR

      Did he really?

    3. JE

      Sam Kinison, one of his, one of his, um, last CDs was called Leader of the Band, B-A-N-N-E-D.

    4. JR

      Right.

    5. JE

      And at the, uh, flip side of the CD, he thanks a bunch of people, Ring Lardner and record people and all of that, and then also Sly and Sean Penn. And then at, after all of that, in larger letters than the others, he says, "And a very special thanks to Joe Eszterhas for writing his letter to Michael Ovitz." [laughs]

    6. JR

      That's amazing.

    7. JE

      Amazing.

    8. JR

      What letter did you write to Michael Ovitz?

    9. JE

      Oh, Michael Ovitz was the, was the top, top dog, um, agent in town, running CAA. And the, and, uh, I was leaving CAA because my best friend and rabbi in the business was an agent named Guy McElwaine, who had been running Columbia, became an agent again. So and I, I was leaving CAA simply because of my love for Guy. And I went in to see Ovitz and said, "I'm leaving the agency." And Ovitz said, um, "If you leave the agency, then my foot soldiers who go up and down Wilshire Boulevard will put you under the ground."

    10. JR

      Oh, Jesus.

    11. JE

      What the fuck? You know, so the, so then I thought about it for a couple weeks, and I-

    12. JR

      Jesus

    13. JE

      ... and I, and I wrote him a letter which essentially said, "Fuck you." You know? "I'm leaving. I'm going back to the person who started me in the business and the person I love." And it turned into a major controversy with headlines all over the place and all of that.

    14. JR

      Put you under the ground is strong words.

    15. JE

      Oh, man. There's an, there was a producer named Bernie Brillstein.

    16. JR

      I know Bernie.

    17. JE

      He, did you? He wrote his own me-

    18. JR

      Yeah, I knew Bernie

    19. JE

      ... me- memoir, um, late, years later, who said those exact words had been used to him as well.

    20. JR

      Wow.

    21. JE

      Yeah, so the, uh... And you know what? In the, as time went on, it became obvious that, that, that the whole controversy with Ovitz really hurt him, um, be- because, uh, other people had been threatened that way, and he had a reputation for that. And he w- and he actually, um, w- w- was out of the business not, not, not, not much past that. But, but to know Sam Kinison, I love Kinison's work, but know Sam Kinison, when I saw that thing, I was, uh, overwhelmed. [laughs]

    22. JR

      He was one of the greats.

    23. JE

      He was one of the greats, absolutely.

    24. JR

      One of the greats, and I, I still maintain that for, like, a period of two years, two or three years, he was the most profound and revolutionary-

    25. JE

      Yeah

    26. JR

      ... stand-up comic ever.

    27. JE

      Yeah, I agree. I agree.

    28. JR

      Uh, he came out of nowhere. He was so different than anybody else. You know, I was introduced, uh, to Kinison by a girl that I worked with.

    29. JE

      Mm-hmm. Mm.

    30. JR

      I was working at a, um, a gym called the, uh, Boston Athletic Club in South Boston, and there was a girl that worked at the front counter who was hilarious. She was a volleyball player. She was a really hilarious girl, and she told me about Kinison and reenacted one of his bits in the parking lot of the club. Told me what she saw on TV about... He had that bit about, uh, homosexual necrophiliacs-

Episode duration: 2:11:04

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