CHAPTERS
- 0:02 – 2:07
Grusch’s return: post-Congress testimony, laying low, then joining Rep. Burlison’s staff
Joe opens by asking Grusch—“closest to the flame”—for an update. Grusch recaps the aftermath of his congressional testimony, the stalled UAP Disclosure Act, and why he kept a low profile in 2024 before being hired as a professional staffer for Rep. Eric Burlison.
- •UAP Disclosure Act of 2023 fails; Grusch steps back for a year
- •Unusual career turn: whistleblower later hired by Congress
- •Work largely behind the scenes with Burlison; intense pace leads to burnout
- •Grusch frames the moment as historically “poignant” with major political shifts
- 2:07 – 3:06
Congressional landscape: believers vs skeptics and what Grusch briefs in SCIFs
Rogan asks who in Congress wants disclosure and who resists. Grusch describes a growing UAP caucus, escalating institutional interest, and numerous classified meetings where he presents the long history and darker issues surrounding the topic.
- •Bifurcation in Congress: non-believers vs UAP caucus
- •Press events and public support from additional members
- •Multiple SKIF/SCIF sessions briefing the ‘topological history’ of the issue
- •Mentions criminal activity discovered during inquiries and DOJ coordination
- 3:06 – 5:44
Following the money: CIA gold bars case and how covert funding can work
Grusch introduces an example of fraud and illicit behavior in the national security ecosystem: a CIA officer allegedly creating a fake continuity-of-government SAP and acquiring massive gold reserves. The exchange becomes a primer on unconventional funding mechanisms and how they can be abused.
- •CIA officer ‘David Rusch’ case: alleged fake SAP and $40M in gold bars
- •Discussion of why governments keep cash/gold for operations
- •Rogan probes logistics and plausibility; Grusch cites seizure photos
- •Sets up the idea that secrecy enables corruption
- 5:44 – 10:14
Criminal underbelly allegations: trafficking, washed money, and oversight failures
Pressed on ‘criminal stuff,’ Grusch alleges officers within government ran an enterprise involving trafficking to fund covert activities—framing it as an oversight failure that allowed pockets of extreme abuse. He connects the pattern to historical analogs like Iran-Contra and drug-trafficking claims.
- •Grusch alleges ‘unspeakable’ crimes including child trafficking
- •Claims he briefed members in classified settings and worked with DOJ
- •Distinguishes many ‘patriotic’ UAP program participants from a small abusive clique
- •Uses Iran-Contra/Freeway Ricky Ross as analogy for cutouts and washed money
- 10:14 – 12:50
How Grusch became a whistleblower: administrative retaliation and targeted pressure
Grusch recounts being ‘administratively nuked’ in 2020 as he got close to sensitive programs, with colleagues and superiors targeted through fabricated conduct allegations and mental-health insinuations. He emphasizes he never wanted to be a whistleblower and frames the retaliation as an effort to stop his inquiry.
- •Timeline shift: investigation work intensifies around 2019–2020
- •Retaliation includes walking out leaders, targeting coworkers, and mental-health smears
- •He maintains security clearance and describes the stress escalation into 2022
- •Positions whistleblowing as self-protection after institutional hostility
- 12:50 – 19:39
Threats, anomalous health incidents, and a Senate SCIF claim: “they wanted to kill you”
Grusch describes suspicious surveillance, threatening messages, and reports of Havana Syndrome-like symptoms among people connected to the issue. He then recounts an off-the-books Senate intel staff SCIF meeting where he says he was told specific individuals had considered killing him, later ‘kiboshed.’
- •Threat message implying ability to harm him and his wife; coordinated messaging to others
- •Mentions monitoring of his classified computer and encrypted notes
- •Reports of anomalous health incidents among associates starting in 2021
- •Senate SCIF meeting claim: staff told him certain people ‘wanted to kill’ him; DOJ investigation referenced
- 19:39 – 45:05
Disclosure now? Trump, Stephen Miller, resistance, and the ‘slow rollout’ strategy
Rogan pivots to disclosure mechanics and whether a lack of oversight or UAP secrets drive conflict. Grusch claims Trump intends full release before his term ends, but faces resistance from entrenched programs; he also explains why disclosure might be staged to manage public shock and geopolitics.
- •Grusch predicts major disclosure before Trump leaves office
- •Mentions alleged resistance/blocking of access for political appointees
- •Explains ‘anesthetization/climatization’ slow-roll idea from past planning
- •Geopolitical concerns: allies/adversaries, religious impacts, and ‘triggering’ NHI response fears
- 45:05 – 50:55
What disclosure must include: evidence, amnesty, and contractor fraud liability
They discuss why disclosure has been delayed: legal exposure over misappropriated funds and sole-source contracts, plus fears of Supreme Court-level challenges. Grusch argues for conditional amnesty and a truth-and-reconciliation-style process, excluding extreme criminal conduct.
- •2004 disclosure cost-benefit exercise and ‘federal contracts fraud’ concerns
- •DFARS/sole-source contracting as a disclosure barrier; liability risk
- •Advocates limited immunity for testimony; rejects immunity for ‘blue collar’ crimes
- •Proposes TRC-style approach to bring insiders forward and expand legitimate research
- 50:55 – 55:52
What UAP are and how they might work: plasmoid orbs, MHD, and craft ‘taxonomy’
Rogan asks Grusch to define what these objects are and what they can do. Grusch outlines both ‘physical and non-physical’ UAP concepts, including potentially sentient plasma or plasma sheaths, then lists multiple craft shapes and suggests varied origins/‘models.’
- •Orbs as possible sentient plasmoids or probes; alternate theory: plasma sheath around craft
- •Magnetohydrodynamic propulsion and Lorentz-force control in atmosphere
- •Multiple craft types: Tic Tacs, eggs, discs, boomerangs/crescents, ‘sunfish’
- •Suggests overlapping designs like car models; propulsion tech may dictate shapes
- 55:52 – 1:06:22
Biologics claim: Grusch says he saw video of non-human cadavers from a retrieval
Grusch makes a direct claim that genomic comparisons were pursued and that cadavers exist. He says he personally saw clear contemporary video of several ‘human-looking’ bodies associated with a retrieval and that he verified the event through other sources to avoid deception.
- •Claims work occurred comparing genomes; he lacks access to final results
- •States he saw contemporary video of 3–4 cadavers from a retrieval operation
- •Describes appearance as very human-like, pale/bluish-white, ‘beautiful,’ long hair
- •Argues disclosure will require physical evidence beyond video due to low public trust
- 1:06:22 – 1:13:44
Entity types and ‘Greek gods’: Nordics/tall whites, grays, and bioengineering speculation
They explore why some beings might look human and how ancient ‘gods’ narratives could relate. Grusch connects the ‘Greek gods’ analogy to reports of tall, humanlike beings and raises possibilities like bioengineering, breakaway civilization, or disguise/compatibility for contact.
- •‘Greek gods’ remark linked to DeLonge/McCasland lore; discussion of ‘tall whites’
- •Grays affirmed as ‘real’ in his account; references Ariel School (Zimbabwe) case
- •Speculates on why beings resemble humans: bioengineering, contact ease, reduced shock
- •Considers ancient myths, cargo-cult dynamics, and rewritten human history
- 1:13:44 – 1:21:39
Reptilians and conflict narrative: NHI vs NHI, armed engagements, and crash causes
Grusch relays secondhand accounts of reptilian-looking beings, associating them with Tic Tac-style craft and alleged hostile encounters. He claims ‘NHI vs NHI’ conflict contributes to crashes and describes a scenario where U.S. personnel were attacked and responded with lethal force.
- •Reptilian description (secondhand): very tall, scaly, sometimes ‘gorilla-looking’
- •Claims NHI vs NHI conflict exists and is documented as ‘conflict’ in collection
- •Mentions retrieval with dead grays alongside reptilians; implies confrontation
- •Says living reptilians were shot after posing a threat; U.S. casualties alleged
- 1:21:39 – 1:24:31
Nukes and the phenomenon: archival astronomy plates and heightened activity after tests
The conversation shifts to nuclear correlations, including a recent archival astronomy study showing anomalous reflective objects more likely after nuclear tests. Grusch argues the phenomenon predates modern tech but intensifies around nuclear sites and testing, aligning with historical ‘UFOs and nukes’ cases.
- •Discusses pre-Sputnik archival plate anomalies and clustering near nuclear facilities
- •Mentions correlation: 68% more likely within 24 hours after nuclear tests
- •References Jacques Vallée and long historical record of encounters
- •Connects to military witness accounts and nuclear-site incidents
- 1:24:31 – 2:18:51
Ancient mysteries and religion: Egypt, megaliths, Book of Enoch/Ezekiel, and ‘demons’ debate
Rogan and Grusch riff on Egypt’s underground structures, alleged metallic objects, and the possibility of ancient ‘cargo cult’ civilizations. They then connect disclosure implications to religious texts—Enoch, Ezekiel—and theological debates about demons vs non-human intelligences.
- •Hawara ‘labyrinth’ and a claimed 40m metallic object; pyramids’ underground structures
- •Megalithic sites and the idea that we don’t know our own ancient history
- •Book of Enoch ‘Watchers’ and Ezekiel as potential literal encounter descriptions
- •Grusch: some phenomena could be interpreted as ‘demonic,’ but not the whole ecosystem
- 2:18:51 – 2:21:00
Underwater bases and government opacity: ‘multiple city blocks’ in the ocean, Baltic anomaly
Rogan presses on ocean-origin theories; Grusch says there are large undersea ‘base-like’ structures where ‘stuff comes and goes,’ but he limits details due to sensitive naval capabilities. The Baltic Sea anomaly is referenced as another area he won’t expand on publicly.
- •Claims of a large underwater base/installation ‘multiple city blocks’ in size
- •Notes indeterminate origin; hints at tracking/collection methods being sensitive
- •‘The Abyss’ referenced as a pop-cultural analogy by underwater community sources
- •Baltic Sea anomaly acknowledged but deferred to government handling
- 2:21:00 – 2:30:25
PSYOP accusations and closing outlook: AI as an unintended disclosure pathway, timing, and stakes
Rogan asks about allegations from Matthew Brown; Grusch denies involvement and describes online ‘handling/PSYOP’ theories as baseless. In closing, they discuss AI potentially discovering proof via disparate datasets, and Grusch reiterates urgency for a controlled, evidence-backed disclosure within the current administration’s window.
- •Denies PSYOP-ing Matthew Brown; says he didn’t create or see the alleged briefing
- •Highlights rampant online theories about manipulation and ‘being handled’
- •Warns AI could correlate data and force ‘unexpected’ disclosure or expose tech
- •Reaffirms need for staged but decisive disclosure, ideally before the next election cycle
