Joe Rogan Experience #2560 - David Grusch

Joe Rogan 0:00 [upbeat music]

Joe Rogan 0:02 Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

Speaker 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. [upbeat music] All right, we're up. David, what's up? Good to see you.

David Grusch 0:14 Thanks for having me back on. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:15 My pleasure.

David Grusch 0:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:17 Well, you're the one who's closest to the flame, so tell me what's going on.

David Grusch 0:20 Oh, I know, right? So, uh, uh, living the nightmare is what I tell my friends. So it's definitely, um, been a tough several years or so. And, uh, you know, last time we were on, uh, just testified in front of Congress and, uh, the UAP Disclosure Act of '23 was, you know, possibly getting passed. It failed to get passed, and then I, um, based on, you know, things I know about the Biden administration, things I heard from the White House, I decided to kind of lay low for a year. So '24, I didn't do too much. And then, uh, Representative Burlison had this crazy idea to, to hire me as a professional staff member for Congress working for him. Uh, turns out, I guess I was, like, the first guy that ever testified in front of Congress as a whistleblower and then being subsequently hired by Congress. Um, I was the first guy to ever do that, which is very interesting and very cool, and I, I do thank Burlison for, um, you know, his leadership on that. And so I did that for about a year and a half. Um, just finished up, actually. I was like, "You know what? I'm staying longer than I thought. You know, I'm gonna wait until Labor Day, see where things are." I worked pretty hard over, uh, s- uh, summer recess in August and, and decided, uh, to, you know, wind down some of my activities 'cause I accomplished a lot of my objectives, and we can get into that obviously. And then, uh, kind of move into I'll call it my next phase of operations, which includes a little break for me. Um, it's been very tiring. I've been kind of, you know, going full throttle for the last couple years and whatnots. And so we're really at a, a, I think, a poignant moment in US history with what Trump's done and in the things you've seen in the media and whatnot, and there's a lot of other stuff happening behind the scenes 'cause, uh, you know, a lot of my work has been private, behind the scenes, you know, working for Congress, w- specifically Representative Burlison. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:07 So let me ask you the environment.

David Grusch 2:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:08 So are there some people in Congress that are interested in disclosure of this stuff and pursue you-

David Grusch 2:15 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:15 ... and wanna find out information and want you to tell them-

David Grusch 2:18 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:19 ... what, what's going on? And, and then are there other people that are resisting this?

David Grusch 2:24 Yeah, I think there's a big bifurcation of the non-believers and then kind of the UAP caucus, although you see more and more people kind of signing on to the cause. Like, I did a presser back in June in front of the Capitol with members, and we even had, uh, Brigadier General Retired, uh, Representative Scott Perry there, who is on the House Intelligence Committee from my home state of PA. And it was good to see other members, you know, start showing that they support the cause. But it has been challenging behind the scenes, and I had many SKIF classified meetings with the members kind of going over the topological history of this topic and, and some of the deeper, darker kind of, you know, criminal stuff I bumped into and how I worked with DOJ to kind of highlight some of that stuff. And that's, and we-

Joe Rogan 3:06 What kind of criminal stuff?

David Grusch 3:08 Yeah, so, uh, when I was, um, looking into this, and I have to be very respectful of, uh, my participation in this 'cause it's an ongoing thing with DOJ, um, I was, you know, following the money, bumping into other activities, um, very much like... A- actually, it's sort of related. And if you saw on the news the David Rusch, very similar name to me. It's kind of, uh, freaky. Uh, but he was arrested with $40 million of gold bars. He was a CIA officer. He made a fake, uh, continuity of government special access program. And, you know, he went under the radar basically, um, doing his own thing and getting gold and Rolexes and stuff, and the FBI raided his house back in May.

Joe Rogan 3:48 [laughs]

David Grusch 3:48 True, true story. Yeah, the guy has a-

Joe Rogan 3:50 He has, uh, gold bars?

David Grusch 3:51 He has... He had $40 million of gold bars.

Joe Rogan 3:53 Where'd he get the gold bars?

David Grusch 3:55 From the agency.

Joe Rogan 3:56 They have them laying around?

David Grusch 3:58 Yeah. I can't get into all the details-

Joe Rogan 3:59 What?

David Grusch 4:00 ... of why the gov- the government-

Joe Rogan 4:01 Wait a minute. Hold on.

David Grusch 4:01 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:02 The government has gold bars?

David Grusch 4:03 Yeah. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 4:04 And this guy just snatched them?

David Grusch 4:06 Yeah. He made... I don't know all the details, but he made a fake continuity of government special access program that nobody was briefed into. He, like, you know, papered it, and, uh, nobody at the CIA questioned what he was doing, and he was like, "Well, I need, you know, 40 million in gold bars because of this special continuity of government activity."

Joe Rogan 4:23 Wait a minute, wait a minute.

David Grusch 4:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:24 So that's how they fund some things?

David Grusch 4:26 Yes.

Joe Rogan 4:26 In gold bars?

David Grusch 4:28 It's almost like, uh, in Afghanistan when I was over there, I'd have guys with briefcases full of $100,000 in cash 'cause you have to pay for things, right?

Joe Rogan 4:36 Right.

David Grusch 4:37 So imagine-

Joe Rogan 4:38 But that kind of makes more sense-

David Grusch 4:39 Yeah

Joe Rogan 4:39 ... to me than lugging around gold.

David Grusch 4:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:42 What does, like, $40 million in gold bars look like?

David Grusch 4:45 Uh, I saw the seizure photos. It's a lot. I mean, it's pretty heavy.

Joe Rogan 4:48 Let me see. Can I see what that looks like?

Speaker 4:49 It's approximately 303 gold bars that each weigh approximately one kilogram-

David Grusch 4:53 Yeah

Speaker 4:53 ... apiece.

Joe Rogan 4:55 Yo. That's a lot of weight.

David Grusch 4:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:56 [laughs]

Speaker 4:56 Yeah, I was looking for a picture. There's only, like, AI photos of it.

David Grusch 4:58 Yeah. [clears throat]

Speaker 4:59 At least that I could find.

Joe Rogan 5:00 So a kilogram is 1 point... 2.2 pounds?

David Grusch 5:02 Yeah.

Speaker 5:02 Yeah.

David Grusch 5:03 2.28 or something.

Joe Rogan 5:03 That's crazy.

Speaker 5:04 600 and-

Joe Rogan 5:05 This dude's got 600 pounds of gold?

David Grusch 5:07 [laughs] Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:08 Where the fuck do you put these? So he just had it in his house?

David Grusch 5:11 He did have it at his house, and he had a-

Joe Rogan 5:12 Just laying around?

David Grusch 5:12 ... bunch of Rolexes and all that and, uh-

Joe Rogan 5:15 Oh, so he was just going crazy.

David Grusch 5:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:16 [laughs]

David Grusch 5:17 Well, who knows what he was really gonna use the gold for, but that, that's an open-ended thing, and he-

Joe Rogan 5:21 Was he-

David Grusch 5:22 ... he was arrested

Joe Rogan 5:22 ... pretending that he was using it for some disclosure type deal, or did it have anything to do with UAPs?

David Grusch 5:29 Uh, not that I'm aware of, but that same ecosystem I bumped into. So his fabricated program was a continuity of government program. So that's like, you know, if something bad happens-

Joe Rogan 5:40 Right

David Grusch 5:40 ... people are going to a hideout site-

Joe Rogan 5:42 Right

David Grusch 5:42 ... you know, sanitized location.

Joe Rogan 5:44 Right.

David Grusch 5:44 And so what I bumped into, unfortunately, was, like, the deep underbelly of the federal government. We can get into it. It's, it's a lot of stuff I've never talked about because it's just very terrifying and I, you know, I've been through a lot of, lot of crazy shit. And I ended up bumping into a criminal enterprise, uh, run out of a particular agency, and, um, it was basically, um- Getting money through certain criminal endeavors, the most unspeakable type of criminal endeavors, under the cover of, uh, certain national security programs. That's about as-

Joe Rogan 6:18 When you say-

David Grusch 6:19 Yeah

Joe Rogan 6:19 ... certain unspeakable-

David Grusch 6:20 Yeah

Joe Rogan 6:21 ... you mean like, what do you mean? Like trafficking?

David Grusch 6:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:27 Like child trafficking?

David Grusch 6:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:30 So the government was involved in child trafficking for money.

David Grusch 6:35 Officers of the government, that's true. Yeah. It's, it's fucked up. I, uh, I briefed members in a classified setting all the details. Um, and I, I'm highlighting that because this is how serious s- this issue is, is there's an ecosystem. And there's a lot of good people around these programs, uh, in terms of the, the UAP side.

Joe Rogan 6:54 UAP programs.

David Grusch 6:55 Yeah. And I know a lot of them. They're friends of mine. They're patriotic people doing their duty. But there is, like, a small little caste system of characters, um, that are part of this larger ecosystem of, uh, no holds barred, we're gonna do what we want and, you know, we're gonna do whatever kind of criminal activity to get, uh, washed money, uh, for our cutouts. Like, so a good example, of course, would be Iran-Contra, right?

Joe Rogan 7:15 Mm-hmm.

David Grusch 7:15 Which is very famous, '86. And the CIA was engaged in those kind of activities. And this has all been exposed, Oliver North and all that, to fund the Contras, weapons purchases, procurement, et cetera. And a lot of that, you know, seemed to, uh, possibly be drug trafficking. The government never confirmed that, but you look at Barry Seal and, and his, um, uh, statements in the '80s and '90s and, and it's likely that that, um, probably occurred, you know? And so-

Joe Rogan 7:44 Yeah, it was all through Freeway Ricky Ross.

David Grusch 7:46 Yeah, that's right.

Joe Rogan 7:47 Yeah, Ricky's been on the podcast multiple times.

David Grusch 7:49 That's right. That's right.

Joe Rogan 7:50 Yeah.

David Grusch 7:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:51 He was on, what was it, like, two years ago? A year and a half ago? Last time he was on.

David Grusch 7:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:55 Um, it's funny 'cause he's out now, uh, became an attorney while he was in jail.

David Grusch 8:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:01 Found out... C- learned to read first, okay? Couldn't read. Became an attorney in jail, found out that they tried him, you know that triple jeopardy, three strikes thing?

David Grusch 8:11 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:11 They tried him incorrectly. They used that incorrectly because it's supposed to be three different times you were arrested instead of, like, three crimes that were attached-

David Grusch 8:18 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 8:18 ... to one arrest. So he gets out of jail. Now he sells legal weed. [laughs]

David Grusch 8:23 [laughs] All right. All right.

Joe Rogan 8:25 Lovely guy.

David Grusch 8:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:26 But he, he's a great guy. But he had no idea that he was selling cocaine to fund the Contras versus the Sandinistas.

David Grusch 8:33 Interesting.

Joe Rogan 8:34 He had no idea.

David Grusch 8:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:35 He thought that he was just a, a, a slick character that just knew what he was doing.

David Grusch 8:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:39 Was, you know, he didn't realize that the CIA was literally allowing him to do it. Now, we've also had Michael Rupert on the podcast.

David Grusch 8:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:46 Do you know who he is?

David Grusch 8:47 No.

Joe Rogan 8:47 Michael Rupert was-

David Grusch 8:48 Yeah

Joe Rogan 8:48 ... the LA narcotics officer that, on, uh, I believe it was on C-SPAN, he went on C-SPAN during a hearing and he exposed the entire or- organization-

David Grusch 8:59 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 8:59 ... selling drugs in South Central Los Angeles because he was involved in it. He was involved in, like, busting people that were doing it, and then they told him he has to leave it alone because it was the CIA.

David Grusch 9:11 Yeah. Yeah, and so when I bumped into that stuff, you know, I immediately worked with the Department of Justice.

Joe Rogan 9:17 That's one level-

David Grusch 9:17 Yeah. Yeah

Joe Rogan 9:17 ... but, like, child trafficking is another level deeper and darker.

David Grusch 9:19 I know, man. It's, it's, it's really fucked up and, and there's a lot of details that are... I have a lot more questions than answers and, and I, you know, I worked with DOJ and, you know, from what I understand, uh, I got a gold star and a brief to Kash Patel about it last year. I wasn't in the briefing, but I, and I, I was told I got kudos, but it was very disturbing. And so, like, obviously a lot of these programs are legal in the sense that there's, in terms of UAP stuff, there's-

Joe Rogan 9:48 Right

David Grusch 9:48 ... you know, classified executive orders back in the day that covers them and, and they're upstanding citizens. And we could, we could litigate, like, you know, uh, uh, Congress wasn't necessarily brought into the fold enough from an oversight perspective, et cetera. But, you know, the core of the program, you know, does have, uh, a legal beginning, but when you don't have oversight, unfortunately certain small pockets of people start doing shit that they shouldn't have.

Joe Rogan 10:13 Right.

David Grusch 10:13 And I, and unfort-

Joe Rogan 10:14 That's the problem

David Grusch 10:14 ... and unfortunately, I got deeply ensnared in that, and there was a very small group of people that, uh, you know, pushed me over the edge and I had to do what I gotta do to, to, you know, protect myself. And I never wanted to be a whistleblower. You know, I was a deeply entrenched, you know, 15-year intel officer, military officer in the Air Force. I, you know, I was working some of the country's most sensitive issues. You know, started going to the White House to brief the National Security Council in my mid-20s on space issues back during the Obama administration. And, and in 2019, when I joined the UAP Task Force and I was tasked to investigate this, I was like, "Sure, I'll look into it." You know, the special access program or black program community has a lot of dysfunction and, and maybe some stuff wasn't reported, you know, it, you know, correctly and, and I didn't know really what I was gonna find, but if there was a US program, you know, I'd figure it out. I'd probably get cleared to it, and we'd be fine. We'd have, like, a mafia meeting and, and, uh, you know, that ... And, and I know why it was protected the way it is and whatnot. But unfortunately, about a year and a half, about October 2020 is when kind of my life changed and re- pers- uh, particular individuals, instead of coming to me, who knew me, by the way, personally. I know, I know them personally. "Now, Dave, you're bumping into something. You know, I'm gonna defensively brief you. This is what it is" or, "Hey, I'm gonna slide an NDA, sign this, and I'll read you in." And, and my colleagues and I joked about that. Like, we're bumping into shit. Eventually somebody's gonna knock on my door in my office and be like, "Hey, I need to talk to you." And unfortunately, that never happens. Um, it's really tragic 'cause that would've been an easier way. But, um, I immediately got administratively nuked in October 2020, and basically they went after everybody around me. Uh, my boss at the National Reconnaissance Office, as, you know, Major Grusch, the Air Force officer in the reserves, got walked out of NRO headquarters in Chantilly, Virginia under- fabricated, uh, personal conduct things and, and they went after, you know, my chief of staff who worked for me at NGA when I was a 15, and, and coworkers, people they thought were my enablers, right? And, um, and I thought, "Okay, I could fight this." They're bringing up, like, my mental health stuff, which we've talked about before, Afghanistan PTSD. I'm like, I reported it. I was cleared of, you know, no problems, kept my top secret clearance, and I still have my top secret clearance. But it got very,

David Grusch 12:50 very, um, scary in early 2022. And I've avoided talking about this for a long time, and I've mentioned in my hearing in 2023, you know, I was, you know, I'm, I'm here in fear for my life, et cetera. Well, you know, I'm not talking about the criminal stuff I found, stuff that's happened in my personal life and stuff. And so back in early 2022, um, everything's fine. Uh, started, uh, noticing some suspicious activity, um, near where I live. And I th- didn't think much of it, thought it was kind of strange, and I don't want to quite go into all the details. But basically, um, later one particular day, uh, I was sent a message that they can touch me and my wife, and they n- they're-- they know where we are, and they-

Joe Rogan 13:42 And what-

David Grusch 13:42 Yeah

Joe Rogan 13:43 ... do you think this was partic- Was this because of the child trafficking stuff? Was this because of some other illegal activity th- with no oversight?

David Grusch 13:51 You know, in private environments, I've, was asked what, what red line, what tripwire did I cross? To this day, I don't know specifically. I suspect, uh, based on them, what turns out they were monitoring my classified computer at work, uh, my re- my investigation notes that I would keep encrypted on there. I think they were very worried that I figured out a lot of things. And I, I still don't know for sure, though. Like, and it-- A- and there's a lot of other things, too. I guess I'm kind of jumping around because, um, i- in early 2021, you know, certain people that were helping me and I was talking to started to experience, uh, Havana Syndrome symptoms, you know, anomalous health incidents. And I know a lot about that. That's another kind of ecosystem I was an expert in in the government. And of course, my first thing is like: Huh, uh, did you piss off the Russians or Chinese or some other kind of foreign intelligence service? Or, 'cause you don't think domestic. And I'm like, "What did you do in your career? Were you on covert action programs? Did you like, you know, bomb some, you know, adversary's building and they're pissed off at you and they hold a grudge?" And so I noticed that. I wasn't gonna equate that to the topic, and, uh, but I, I was very nervous about that, 'cause people I know, uh, were starting to experience those symptoms, specifically, uh, microwave-directed energy, most likely, just based on, um, certain tradecraft they were doing to detect it, which I won't get into the details of that, and then the, their, their symptomology, so to speak. And, uh, so that was frightening. And in the, in the, in that 2021 timeframe, I was sitting at home. I was getting, um, you know, investigated by three agencies, and, um, I really didn't know what was going on. A lot of my colleagues were gonna continuing on that investigation on, on, on my behalf. And eventually, in late 2021, NGA hired me as a 15 off the street, kind of came back into government full time. I was hoping, um, that agency would protect me against, uh, you know, the CIA and the NRO and, and certain elements of the DoD that were going after me because of these, uh, couple antagonists that were trying to, you know, basically, um, push me over the edge administratively. But what, what I crossed the Rubicon in early 2022 when I was sent a message, and it was the s- the same day I was sent a message, other people got that message too, so it was coordinated geographically. And of course, you know, I reported that to federal law enforcement, counterintelligence element. And at the time, I'm like, "Well, you know, there was one adversarial intelligence agency that had an interest in me several years ago, and I had a little incident." That was actually kind of funny. Um, so I wasn't sure if it was, like, the US government or even if it was related, um, to the, my investigation. And then several, several, uh, weeks later, and I w- I get chills talking about this 'cause it's, it's kind of upsetting. Um, I was, uh, in DC, um, for a conference on UAP actually, uh, for my, for my agency, NGA, at the time, and I got summoned to an off-the-books, uh, Senate intel committee, uh, we'll call it meeting, in their, you know, their SCIF, right? Their, their, their vault where you can talk classified information. And certain individuals were there known to me, um, great credentials, people I've known for a while, uh, in my line of work, and so was, you know, a dozen, dozen and a half, uh, senior staff for Marco Rubio, Mark Warner, you know, et cetera, right? And in that meeting, uh, we, you know, we talked about the legacy program, the history, m- many hours, and I'm a fly on the wall. Like, this is really for Senate staff. I'm just kind of sitting in the back. And, you know, they turned to staff, and they p- you know, they pointed at me, and they're like, um, "Oh, by the way, you know, the, these couple individuals," and they, and they named the individuals. I'm like, "I know who they are." Um, uh, "They, uh, wanted to kill you." And, um, I know Lou Elizondo talked about it in-

Joe Rogan 18:06 But, but, but why?

David Grusch 18:08 I do not know that for sure. I think... Well, so, um, hmm. Be careful what I say. Uh, there are certain presidential findings that allow certain things to protect critical things in the government. And my assessment is I was getting so close to exposing it because I was sort of preparing my inspector general's, uh, [tsks] report to the IG that, um, I must have crossed some sort of Rubicon. I still would like to know, and I hope these people are, you know, uh, brought to justice and that's, you know, my wish and dream. And hopefully Department of Justice does what's needed, but- There's an investigation ongoing right now? Yes, on that. And that's all I'll say defensively not to interfere with that. A good day starts with a solid morning routine. So if something's missing, if your body isn't getting what it needs, everything can feel off. AG1 is designed to help fill the holes. Their next gen formula is dialed in with over 75 ingredients, minerals, vitamins, adaptogens, and more, clinically shown to fill nutrient gaps and increase healthy gut bacteria. And AG1 Pro takes it even further. It has CAHMB for muscle protection, zinc carnosine for gut health, and five grams of Creavitalis premium German-made creatine monohydrate, which if you don't know, creatine is a highly studied compound

David Grusch 19:39 in sports science that helps support energy. Get more from your morning routine. Add either AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro and your body will thank you. Go to drinkag1.com/joerogan and for a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro. That's drinkag1.com/joerogan. O- okay. Yeah. How much of this do you think has to do with actual UAP- Yeah ... disclosure, and how much of it has to do with the lack of oversight that allowed people to do illegal activities? I think some problem children decided to abuse some standing options to protect, you know, critical infrastructure in the United States, which, you know, for example, that would be like a Air Force flight line, a, uh, ICBM silo, um, other activities. And they decided, um, I was some sort of threat. Wait, and it's, it's so disgusting because I, you know, like I said, I was a field grade officer in the Air Force. I was a, you know, GS-15 at CIA, colonel equivalent civilian, and I'm sitting there in Senate chambers and I'm hearing this. And I won't get into all the details into a lot. I heard like, you know, all the details on that and, and I don't wanna like, um, [tsks] burn my sources. And, and I just remember how upset Senate staff was, and to the point where, you know, a particular staffer, um, who's very senior went to his office and got some whiskey. And, you know, all of them started drinking in the SCIF 'cause it's like everybody was afraid. Like, "Are they serious? They're... Like, they literally were thinking about killing fucking Dave?" And like, and, and, and I found out that there was a kibosh to that. That's a longer story for someday if I could ever, you know, discuss the whole, the whole history and- So it was considered, but then it was kiboshed. Yes. Thank God. And I know how it was stopped, and I, I owe some people a debt of gratitude literally. And, um, and this was just a few weeks after, you know, I was sent a message. And, and even after the meeting, um, we were finding stuff, and other people were finding stuff, um, to let people know that they're being tracked. And I know this sounds, like, so fucking crazy and, and all that, but- Well, so does- ... that happened ... someone having $40 million- Yeah ... in gold- I know. I know ... laying around their house and a bunch of Rolexes. Yeah. Never did I think... You know, I'm a very patriotic guy. I love serving America. You know, it hurts me every day not having the uniform anymore. And knowing that was the level that they thought about going to because of this [tsks] interesting interpretation of certain standing options, and I-- And, and eventually in this disclosure process, a lot of that'll come out. I just have to be careful what I say now until, you know, the, the president figures out how to, you know, release some of th- this history, unfortunately, so. Understood. Yeah. So one of the things that we talked about before, so you were scheduled for another podcast a while back, but flights got canceled- Oh, yeah ... and we moved it to today. Yeah. But you were saying that it's f- actually fortuitous that it was rescheduled. Yeah. A lot of things are happening. I see the administration getting really, really serious on this, and I think people don't appreciate the courage that Trump is ha- is, is showing right now, uh, ordering the government to release everything we know about this topic. It, it'll be- Courage how so? Like, you think he's in danger from- No ... releasing this information? Not necessarily, but it's, it's, um, the ontological shock and the history coming out and s- sort of the outrage. I mean, I think it'll be uniting sort of like in post-9/11 America after the towers fell, right? You have the, the fear of dirty bombs and other terrorist attacks, but you also have this, like, uh, uniting, uh, panacea that kind of brings people together. Do you think that- Yeah ... is equivalent to what's happening right now? It will be, and I think that's- What is gonna happen? So I believe, uh, before Trump, Trump's term ends that it's all gonna come out. What does that mean? I really do. Everything I've testified about. You know, the fact that, you know, we've been studying this for a while. We've recovered material, AKA intact, semi-intact craft. We've, you know, recovered this anomalous intelligence piloting the craft and, you know, we are reverse engineering that. And obviously, there's other parts to that. It's very complicated ecosystem. A lot of people who are just, "Release it all. Show us Indiana Jones warehouse tour," don't appreciate the care that we're gonna have to Um, proceed with because this is not a static ecosystem. This isn't just like archeology where you're digging up stuff. There is ... You are dealing with, you know, third parties, both human, you know, adversarial countries, et cetera. They have their own program. Then you have, you know, our, this anomalous intelligence, our visitors, NHI, whatever you wanna call them, ultraterrestrial, depending on which taxonomy in the tree that you wanna, um, ascribe some of this origin to. And, uh, and of course, you know, the, the, the national security related technology that has been derived. We've derived great stuff to defend America. I've had exposure on that, and, you know, I'm very reverent to that.

Joe Rogan 25:01 We've derived it through back engineering.

David Grusch 25:02 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:03 100%?

David Grusch 25:04 Yes. Well, some of it, it, it was inspiration. It wasn't a, a one-to-one, like we, we, we unlocked the iPhone. It was like, "Huh, that's an interesting material. Look at that, um, frequency selective surface property. You know what? We could use that for an aerospace application or, or whatever." And so a lot of it was garnered via inspiration, not one-to-one. Yeah. In some cases, I, I suppose we did, but, like-

Joe Rogan 25:31 S-

David Grusch 25:31 ... that's been most of it. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:33 So what's the hold up in terms of disclosure?

David Grusch 25:38 I necessarily can't read the president's mind. Uh, there's certainly a, uh, multilateral kind of diplomatic issue. I mean, so we're in this, this issue now where once we cross the Rubicon, then we affect allies and adversaries. You know, our adversaries have programs. What are they gonna tell their citizenry? You have, uh, possible theological distress, Vatican, et cetera. And I'm, you know, I'm a Catholic and I, I certainly appreciate, uh, the Vatican's long study on this subject, and they've just stayed quiet on what they know. And so it's ... There's a lot of, like, collateral effects. If you're not careful with certain stuff, you, you can, you know, trigger a response, and there is great fear that, uh ... I don't necessarily believe in this, but, like, there has been assessments in the past that, you know, revealing certain things may, you know, trigger a response from a third party. And-

Joe Rogan 26:31 Trigger a response from them, from these-

David Grusch 26:33 Possibly

Joe Rogan 26:34 ... entities.

David Grusch 26:34 Yes. And that is a ... That has been written up. Uh-

Joe Rogan 26:39 So the, the-

David Grusch 26:39 Certain government think tanks wrote that up in reports to p- previous presidents.

Joe Rogan 26:42 So the co- the, the, the theory is that we disclose, people are now aware of it all over the globe-

David Grusch 26:49 Yeah

Joe Rogan 26:49 ... and they decide to show themselves?

David Grusch 26:51 Yeah. I mean, I think there's a real fear of, like, a Ghostbusters moment, I'll say. And-

Joe Rogan 26:55 Oh, boy

David Grusch 26:56 ... you know. And y- it's one of those things where I, I, I'm trying to walk the line and be as diplomatic as possible and also trying to prepare the populace at the same time because clearly the government hasn't right now. And I mean, Trump wants it out for sure. His team needs to be astute enough to know what to ask for, um, you know, uh, massage the deep state and, and get that information 'cause we just saw Tim Burchett on Benny Johnson's podcast talk about, uh, Stephen Miller called him and was like, "Hey, I'm getting blocked," like physically blocked from access to a lot of this stuff. And, you know, that's very concerning. I, I would say Stephen Miller is an alpha dog. He's a pit bull. And as a fellow alpha, I do appreciate his-

Joe Rogan 27:43 That's a silly thing to say.

David Grusch 27:44 His ... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:44 You know that, right? [laughs]

David Grusch 27:45 What?

Joe Rogan 27:46 A fellow alpha.

David Grusch 27:47 Fellow alpha. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 27:50 It opens yourself up to, like, tremendous amounts of ridicule.

David Grusch 27:53 Yeah, I know, I know.

Joe Rogan 27:54 Yeah. It's just-

David Grusch 27:54 I mean, I mean, nobody's perfect and I'm ... I know everybody has their faults, but I do appreciate the fervency. He is attacking the issue behind the scenes and I just, I think he needs guided the right way and informed in, in kind of how, how to cut this deal. Uh, you know, like Trump would-

Joe Rogan 28:10 I met him very briefly-

David Grusch 28:11 Yeah. Yeah

Joe Rogan 28:11 ... at the UFC event at the White House, and he told me that it's gonna come out. I'm like, "Okay."

David Grusch 28:16 That's good. Well, there you go. So-

Joe Rogan 28:17 It was really quick.

David Grusch 28:18 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:19 It was like ... He's like, "I'm just ... I know you're interested in this."

David Grusch 28:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:21 This is literally all we talked about.

David Grusch 28:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:23 "The UFO thing's gonna come out."

David Grusch 28:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:25 I'm like, "Okay. When? When's it coming out? Let's go."

David Grusch 28:27 Exactly. And, and, and, and Trump understands the subject pretty good and, you know, he's in the know, and h- he understands some of the implications. So I, like I said, he has a lot of courage because this is likely gonna change society in a big way. I can't necess- I'm not, like, a social anthropologist or a psychiatrist. Like, I can't necessarily predict in what specific ways it might reduce, you know, fetal nation state peer competition and other things. Uh, but it is gonna change. And I, and I think when people look back at this interview, it's gonna be very haunting 'cause I think in short order, you know, before Trump leaves office, we're gonna be in a new paradigm. And I'm normally a very pessimistic, cynical person, and a lot of my friends know that, but I, I have great confidence that the president is doing the right thing, and I f- I, I feel, um, there's eventually gonna ... There ... The people that are in charge of this are gonna have to comply with the, the president's order. And, uh ... But there's a right way of, of doing this, I think. And I, like I said, I'm not some sycophant for the deep state. I'm a whistleblower obviously, and, you know, I have, um, philosophical differences about how this was kept and how they could possibly reveal stuff. But I, I am surprisingly confident, which is, which is kind of weird for me to say 'cause I just see the tea leaves. I know Miller's serious. Um, there's other people in government serious. I mean, you even see Erin Lucas, the PDDNI, the Deputy Director of National Intelligence, you know, sign these big NDA waivers that includes, like, any kind of waiver of not even telling the president, "Sorry, you have to tell us" kind of thing. And, and so you're seeing kind of the, the chessboard being set. I know everybody's not happy with the tranches coming out with the low-hanging fruit videos and, and recordings and stuff. And Representative Burlison and I, before I left his office recently, got, um, a 1952 recording that was still classified from Blue Book, uh, talking about the seriousness of this issue and all the crazy shit that they're seeing near nuclear sites and test ranges, which is interesting 'cause- In, in, uh, that video that's been declassified, it mentions the very sites that in modern day have that same anomalous activity, to include stuff in the Southwest. It can't say where. It's in the ecosystem in the open source, but the, the executive branch hasn't acknowledged what specific tests and training range. They're seeing crazy orbs that they can't explain.

Joe Rogan 30:45 Hmm.

David Grusch 30:45 This... Acosta helicopters and, and all that, so.

Joe Rogan 30:49 Um, so is Trump experiencing resistance in your opinion?

David Grusch 30:55 Yes. Um, and I don't know all the details, but, uh, clearly, clearly Miller has. And a l- a lot of it is, I think, and I can't read the mind of the deep state, but as a former deep stater, uh, I would say that there's always been this kind of disdain for political appointees, and they don't h- and members of Congress. Like, they don't, they don't have the reverence on this issue. They're gonna fuck it up. They're gonna des- you know, say something that they shouldn't have about a classified program. And, um, that's why some classified programs are kept from Congress. It's called waived programs. Um, and, uh, the only presidents that were really, really involved were the ones like H.W. Bush, right? He was CIA director. He was fully briefed on this issue. A lot of that lore is true about H.W. Bush. Cheney, like I've talked about, fully in this. He was the mob boss. For many years, he was kind of the head of this activity. And so I think there's some, um, testing of the waters right now. It's kind of like cat's paw dynamic. Like, you know, "We'll give you a little bit of this, a little bit of that." And they're, they're seeing how the administration is gonna potentially roll this out. And, and obviously, if the White House wants my opinion, I'm available. But, um, I do trust the president's team hopefully will be able to handle this. And 'cause i- i- if Trump doesn't enforce his order and see this through, I don't think any other president is gonna be able... I mean, I mean, regardless of Democrat, left, right, whatever. Like, if he follows through on this, he's gonna be the GOAT. He's gonna be a legend. And, you know, all the other things people have problems with in his presidency, Iran, whatever, I think this'll, um, wipe those out. And this is, like, really important for his legacy to initiate the process before the '28 election. And then there's, like, a hot handoff to the next, um, administration. And, you know, if Trump's a political animal, he could easily line up a Republican team on the '28 ticket to basically, you know, be his continuity on this too. I think that'd be very smart. And, and, you know-

Joe Rogan 32:55 So this is gonna take a long time to release? Is that h- how you're th- projecting this?

David Grusch 33:00 That was always the plan back in the day. I-

Joe Rogan 33:03 Why?

David Grusch 33:03 Uh, just because it's like an anesthetization and climatization process. It's like, you know, "Okay, we're gonna focus on this topic. Everybody's... This is gonna get normalized. The temperature's gonna cool, and then we're gonna bring in this shocking thing," etc.

Joe Rogan 33:15 So there's a-

David Grusch 33:16 Yeah

Joe Rogan 33:16 ... there's a schedule, like, in terms of, like, the psychological impact on the populace?

David Grusch 33:21 There was in the past in terms of certain, um, government think tanks wrote classified assessments for, uh, previous presidents on this. I don't know what the current plan is. I'm just a... I'm currently literally a private citizen right now.

Joe Rogan 33:35 Right.

David Grusch 33:35 But if they're gonna do what they did in the past, it is... A- a- and the slow rollout has its pluses and minuses. Like, I would say due to human factors, risks of adversarial countries getting ahead of us, other whistleblowers, whatever, you probably have to roll this out in at least, like, 12 months and whatnot. But we're in a precarious time if the administration doesn't start because, uh, China and Russia could take advantage of this moment now, our weakness. You know, China has their famous, uh, Belt and Road Initiative. Uh, China has admitted publicly that they have a UAP task force. Obviously, they have more than that behind the scenes. And they actually announced that when the DoD UAP task force was announced. You can find a news article from June 2020 in the South China Morning Post where they talk about they're analyzing these encounters, they're using AI, etc. So.

Joe Rogan 34:26 Do you feel that China has, or do you know if China has these crashed vehicles as well?

David Grusch 34:34 There's parallel programs.

Joe Rogan 34:35 There's parallel programs.

David Grusch 34:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:37 Now, one of the things that Diana Pasulka said when... and, and Gary Nolan refers to them the same way as well, they, they refer to them as donations.

David Grusch 34:47 Yeah, that's what's really interesting is I am aware of certain historical retrieval rules where they were, like, perfectly landed, and it's wasn't, like, a crash. And what i- what's going on there? I'm sure we've done a deep assessment. I had never had access to that kind of information. I'm sure that we understand why that happened at some level, but that is true that that's actually happened.

Joe Rogan 35:08 So the theory is that they want us to find these things so that we can examine the technology and perhaps-

David Grusch 35:16 Yeah

Joe Rogan 35:16 ... w- work from it-

David Grusch 35:18 Well, it's like-

Joe Rogan 35:18 ... back engineer it, or like you were saying before, gain inspiration to try new-

David Grusch 35:22 Yeah. I mean, part of it's like throwing the gorilla a banana, see if it can peel it. But also, uh, the, the more skeptical intel officer in me is like, "Well, is this a Trojan horse? Do you want us to, uh, figure things out and then get a, then get addicted to a certain type of technology?" And then that creates a control loop, uh, where they start handling us, whether we need raw resources to maintain a certain technology-

Joe Rogan 35:47 They-

David Grusch 35:47 ... or what have you

Joe Rogan 35:47 ... as in this intelligence.

David Grusch 35:49 Yes. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:49 Whatever this is.

David Grusch 35:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:50 This non-human intelligence.

David Grusch 35:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:52 Right. So if, if it is a r- if it is a donation, do you feel like this donation is evenly distributed amongst world powers?

David Grusch 36:03 You know, I do not know the, the, the statistical distribution. That's very interesting. I, I never understood the total number of retrievals and, um, other countries participated.

Joe Rogan 36:16 Well, there's supposed to be quite a few in the United States.

David Grusch 36:18 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's for sure. I don't know the answer to that, actually. I'm sure, uh, there's a statistical analysis that'll come out in this process, you know.

Joe Rogan 36:26 Do you think there's any shared information between these governments? Do you think they communicate?

David Grusch 36:32 There is a, a gentleman's agreement. Uh, the, the top layer of it I can talk about, and I've talked about it previously, so it's not, um, anything super new. If you look at the Accident Measures Agreement of 1971, which, which is the short title of this god-awfully long title treaty that was signed in September 1971, you'll see Article III of the treaty talks about UAP and, "Hey, if you see any unidentified objects around your nuclear or critical co- critical comms facilities, please call us, bro." And that was between the USSR and America. And then, uh, in 2013, the classified annex of that treaty got declassified. You can find it online at George Washington University National Security Archives. But it gives the nuke flash, like the red line, like code to say, it was like Adam 222, Adam 333, and that's all declassified. And you would send that to the, the Kremlin like, "Hey, uh, we see fucking weird shit around, uh, Plesetsk. Uh, it's not us. It's not a false flag," and vice versa. And so there was a red line comms for UAP activity between, uh, Russia and the US. And of course, Russia and the US during the Cold War had a mutual notification treaty for, uh, space launch vehicle and ICBM launches, et cetera. Weirdly enough, we've never had that with China. Even to this day, we don't have a mutual-- This is crazy. We don't even have a mutual notification. If they're gonna do like a, a submar- sub- submarine-launched ballistic missile test at a, you know, off their coast, they're not obligated by treaty to tell us. So, and sometimes they don't with certain national security activities. And, and so, uh, Northern Command, NORAD, Missile Warning Center, other, other places, uh, NSA, DFSMAC in Laurel, Maryland have, have to be on their A-game to like make sure it was like a test, 'cause the Chinese aren't obligated to tell us. And I, um, a crazy story in that regard, the Indians did something like that to us. I was on duty in the NRO Operations Center. And by the way, I got this cleared through security, so you know, NRO, don't shank me. Um, uh, uh, basically there was an unexpected Indian, uh, missile test that hit one of their satellites in 2019. I think it was like March of 2019.

Joe Rogan 38:47 Hit one of our satellites?

David Grusch 38:48 Oh, no, not our. Uh, one of their, uh-

Joe Rogan 38:50 Their own satellites?

David Grusch 38:51 ... defunct weather sa- Yeah, their own defunct weather satellite. And-

Joe Rogan 38:54 On purpose or an accident?

David Grusch 38:55 On purpose. And-

Joe Rogan 38:57 They shot down one of their own satellites.

David Grusch 38:58 Yeah, and they didn't tell us. I remember in my office, I had like all these different phones. I'm like calling the embassy, all this. I'm like, "What the fuck?" You know? And 'cause we were worried at the NRO about the debris, 'cause we fly space, you know, spy satellites. That's the mission of the National Reconnaissance Office. And I was the backup director of intelligence as a reservist at the operations center where I was, you know, also handling the PDB for the director and I, you know, led the director's briefing team. And, you know, I'm like going to the orbital analysts on the watch floor with all the crazy screens like, "Calculate the, the, the debris field. You know, let me know if we have to maneuver something," and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like running up to the director's office in my uniform, you know, out of breath. I'm like, "Holy shit," you know? Um, and it was kind of a big deal. And that's publicly, you know, you can Google that now. And, um, I remember when that went down, it was pretty crazy, so.

Joe Rogan 39:47 No, it sounds-

David Grusch 39:48 Yeah

Joe Rogan 39:48 ... completely insane.

David Grusch 39:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:49 So are there other countries besides China, Russia, and us that supposedly have access to these vehicles?

David Grusch 39:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:58 Which other countries? Can you say?

David Grusch 39:59 That I don't wanna get into-

Joe Rogan 40:01 Okay

David Grusch 40:01 ... 'cause that gets into some sensitive stuff.

Joe Rogan 40:04 Right.

David Grusch 40:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:04 Um, supposedly, this is like one of the best legends, that there's a, a craft that's so large they couldn't move it, so they had to make a building around it, and it's supposedly in Korea. Allegedly.

David Grusch 40:15 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 40:16 Oh, yeah, you do know. How dare you. [laughs] But have you heard-- You've heard that rumor I'm sure online.

David Grusch 40:22 Oh, I've heard that rumor online. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:24 Yeah.

David Grusch 40:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:24 You don't know anything about that?

David Grusch 40:25 Yeah. We'll let the federal government deal with that.

Joe Rogan 40:28 Do you have any personal experience with any of this stuff?

David Grusch 40:31 You know, it's funny you ask that. I, as far as I can remember, I have no experience with the phenomenon. Like a lotta, a lotta people in this, I guess, ufology or whatever you wanna call it, they have that personal experience. Like, "Oh yeah, when I was a kid I saw an orb," or whatever. And-

Joe Rogan 40:47 Uh-huh

David Grusch 40:48 ... I have zero. I've seen a couple interesting things in the sky that, you know, could've been satellite passes. I've been an amateur astronomer. Besides having a physics degree, I've been an amateur astronomer since like I was like in middle school, like 12, 13 years old. And, and I still have never seen anything in my personal life, uh, in a su- stupendous nature. I've never had any kind of spooky woo stuff happen.

Joe Rogan 41:10 Never been visited.

David Grusch 41:11 No. And, and, and that's why, like, I was open to this. You know, I'm a child of the 80- Well, I grew up at-- I was born in the '80s. You know, most of my childhood was in the '90s. And, you know, I watched "X-Files" and "Star Trek: Next Gen." And, and of course y- I'm like, you know, I'm a precocious teen reading like, uh, "A Brief History of Time" and, you know, Isaac Asimov, and I'm learning about the Drake equation. I'm like, "There's probably life, but who knows?" And I'm, I'm open to it. And then, you know, when I got in, into the intelligence community, that's like the first thing I looked up, like, on the web. I'm like on the computer. I'm like, I go onto a certain database. I'm like typing in Area 51 and r- you know, UFO. Like, everybody's done that who's-

Joe Rogan 41:48 Right

David Grusch 41:48 ... who's gone through intel school, whether they admit it or not. And of course, I didn't see anything or anything. Um, the only thing I bumped into early in my career in like 2009, I remember reading the OSSAP, uh, the, uh, Defense Intelligence reference documents, the DIRDs. And at the time I had no idea what they were doing. Uh, turns out it was obviously UAP related, but I was reading, "Why, why is the DIA looking into magnetohydrodynamic propulsion and, uh, cloaking and all the, all this other stuff?" And of course I find out later what it was, but I had absolutely no, uh, personal experience, and even professionally, uh, for most of my career. Now, I found out behind the scenes later, like, "Oh, you remember that top secret program you were working on, Dave? You were actually, uh, looking for UAP, you didn't know it." I'm like, "What?" And, and of course, you know, I find out and I learn about, you know, how they hid all this infrastructure, and they used a lot of conventional national security intelligence collection architecture to basically facilitate this crash retrieval program, which makes sense, 'cause they're not gonna reinvent the wheel and, you know, uh, totally have a separate i- infrastructure to use to like figure out if stuff crashed, activity, et cetera.

Joe Rogan 43:02 Right.

David Grusch 43:02 And, um, you know, early, I would say about 10 years into my career, I remember some imagery analysts saying, "Hey, Dave, you know, like, uh, they told us to airbrush some stuff out of photos and stuff, and it was round." And I'm like, "Okay, dude. Well, maybe that's something you're not cleared to or whatever." And I do remember that. And I had some suspicious recruitment earlier in my career too. I was on some really sensitive stuff that I ended up finding out it was, um, directly adjacent to the program, and I went through this whole like smoking man recruitment thing for a year and, you know, was told I was gonna get these b- kind of bizarre accesses. And I'm like, "What are you talking about?" And ultimately I was never recruited, and I kind of just like put, filed that in the back of my brain for years. But like I've said, uh, you know before, it wasn't until like spring of 2017, I was at the CIA briefing, um, the deputy director staff on a bunch of DoD classified programs. And the chief of, uh, a very sensitive office at the agency pulled me aside and was like, "Dave, what, what do you know about UFOs? Like, uh, I hear there's like a program at the Pentagon and all that." And I'm, and a- and I'm like, "I don't know." Like I, I'm briefed on almost every DoD program at the time, by the way, and hundreds of, of, of programs in the intelligence community, 'cause I was in a position of very high trust. And I, you know, I'm very patriotic and I'm very humbled that I was in a position like that in my 30s. And, and I didn't think anything of it until, until this, this subject got more popularized, people went public, you know, Tom DeLonge, TTSA and all that. And, and, and then I was professionally interested but not really working on it in 2018. And then early in '19 is when I got brought on as the NRO rep to the n- the then Navy task force, which became the DoD's, you know, UAP task force. That's kind of my origin story. And, and so I was always, I'm always been curious, but I never saw evidence and I never had any personal experience with the phenomenon that kind of, kind of colors my, uh, judgment on this, I guess, so.

Joe Rogan 45:05 So I'm sure you're aware of Hal Puthoff when he was, uh, tasked by the Bush administration along with-

David Grusch 45:11 Yeah

Joe Rogan 45:11 ... a bunch of other thinkers to try to come up with pros and cons for disclosure.

David Grusch 45:15 Yeah. I knew some other people in that meeting, and I verified that meeting took place. And even, even AARO admitted in their volume one report, which was horrible, that's a long story, painful, uh, that it, it, it took place, but it was just a hypothetical scenario at a, a federally funded research and development center in Northern Virginia. I'm like-

Joe Rogan 45:34 What year was this?

David Grusch 45:35 2004. It was like November of 2004. And it's like, but why was it hypothetical if it's not real? [laughs] Nobody explains that. And obviously the story is, you know, Steve Hadley, who was the national security advisor, uh, sponsored it. You know, I, I believe Hadley denies it, but you know, who knows if Steve would, uh, you know, tell the truth on that just because of, uh, the sensitivity, so.

Joe Rogan 45:58 And so for people that don't know what happened, supposedly they brought in a bunch of different thought leaders and they gave them, uh, a pro and a con side. Like what would be-

David Grusch 46:08 Yes

Joe Rogan 46:08 ... negatively affected by disclosure, what would be positively affected by disclosure, and attach a numerical value to each thing.

David Grusch 46:15 Correct. They had like a computer system there that like tabulated everything, from what I know talking to other attendees, so.

Joe Rogan 46:21 And virtually every one of them had more negative than positive. And so the-

David Grusch 46:26 Yes

Joe Rogan 46:26 ... decision was made to not disclose.

David Grusch 46:29 Well, yeah. And in the main decision, if I remember correctly, was the federal contracts fraud. Well, that could be debated in, you know, the Supreme Court. But, uh, they realized a lot of... And so this is another issue of disclosure. Besides the ontological th- shock and people can't handling it, and then like-

Joe Rogan 46:46 Misappropriation of funds

David Grusch 46:47 ... y- yeah, and misappropriation of funds and all that. It's, oh, so these set of contractors got sole source contracts and exclusive access to this for internal research and development, where they figure out something and then sell it back to the government, et cetera, for all these decades. Well, what about my mid-level small business and my contractor and blah, blah, blah? And so you're gonna... They were afraid that you would see legal challenges going to the Supreme Court in violation of what they call the DFARS, right? The Defense Federal Acquisition Regulations.

Joe Rogan 47:16 Right.

David Grusch 47:16 And the, the government would be liable for who fucking knows, billions of dollars worth of monies that they spent on this to these contractor partners that got in back in the day. And like, "Well, we're not exposing any more people. We're locking it down," in what they call a J&A, justification and approval for a sole source contract. This is a reas- national security. Like we can't expose any more people to this. And of course, that also causes a brain drain and group think and, and actually hurts the defense, uh, industrial base. But that was the main reason. It wasn't, oh, uh, you know, upcoming millennials that are turning 18 can't handle it. It was like, yeah, we're, we're, we're, we're kind of culpable in kind of a fucked up, uh, contractual relationship. And, and that's gonna be something that the, the Trump administration's gonna have to deal with, is like well how do I reorient the defense in- i- industrial base? I mean, this could trigger a golden era of innovation in America. More people get to play. You overtly can take the basic information that's not sensitive, um, and put it into academia, right? So you have undergraduate, graduate, postdoctoral programs. And you actually b- create this like more educated workforce to actually benefit national security. But, and, and China doesn't have this issue. They're, they're pulling people from, pick a university in China, Nanjing, whatever university, and they're sucking them into these programs. And, but in America, we don't have that kind of permissive totalitarian environment, so we're lagging behind.

Joe Rogan 48:43 Well, in China they probably don't have the issue with-

David Grusch 48:45 Yeah

Joe Rogan 48:45 ... misappropriation of funds and lying to Congress.

David Grusch 48:47 No. CCP, baby.

Joe Rogan 48:48 Right.

David Grusch 48:49 You know, do whatever you want.

Joe Rogan 48:49 Yeah, they do whatever they want.

David Grusch 48:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:50 So they don't have to worry about liability.

David Grusch 48:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:53 So this is one of the things that came up in that film Age of Disclosure.

David Grusch 48:56 That's right.

Joe Rogan 48:57 Is that you're going to have to make some sort of a amnesty program.

David Grusch 49:01 Yeah. And I'm- I am for that as long it's, like, use immunity for specific, uh, testimony or spec-

Joe Rogan 49:09 As long as it doesn't cover, like, this other shit-

David Grusch 49:11 Yeah, like-

Joe Rogan 49:11 ... that you're talking about

David Grusch 49:12 ... like m- my, and of course I know who's watching, people clearly that are from this ecosystem. Um, you know, I would, you know, expect that. Like, everybody's been basically good Americans. There's a small cast of characters that have done unspeakable things. I mean, hell, they wanted to fucking kill me. This is, like, it's disturbing. And, and you wonder why I had to become a whistleblower. I didn't wanna do this shit, but, like, I was pushed over the edge, uh, to do that. You know, I digress. But, like, besides, like, w- blue collar, really fucked up criminal shits, which, you know, once again, there is a judicial justice process in America. You know, we're not gonna do street justice here. We will, you know, take care of that professionally. Um, like I took care of the other criminal stuff I found out professionally. I'm like, look, I'm... You know, and, and, and when I was doing that, I mean, I was meeting people, body armor, armed with colleagues of mine that were, you know, rolling heavy, too, and, like, it was a very serious part of my investigation. But yeah, I, I believe in amnesty, but I th- I think we need to do it like a truth and reconciliation commission, which was in post-apartheid South Africa in the '90s where you had, um, you know, some white farmer comes in and is like, "Yeah, I murdered a, a bunch of Black people or whatever," you know? And it's like, "Okay. Thank you for telling us that. You're good. You know, don't do it again," and move on. I'm, I mean, I'm distilling it down, but that's essentially what the TRC in South Africa was, and I think something like that would be very additive and, and good because, I mean, I have friends that were in the program. They're, they're great guys. They're bros, you know, and gals, and, um, they w- you know, were signed paperwork. You know, it was like, "If you, you know, divulge this, it's under penalty of treason. You get Leavenworth or, you know, capital punishment."

Joe Rogan 50:54 Okay.

David Grusch 50:54 And yeah, so.

Joe Rogan 50:55 Let's break down-

David Grusch 50:56 Yeah

Joe Rogan 50:56 ... what you know-

David Grusch 50:57 Yeah

Joe Rogan 50:57 ... and what you can say.

David Grusch 50:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:00 What are these things, and what are they capable of?

David Grusch 51:04 So, uh, w- there's, like, physical and non-physical, call it UAP and intelligence we're likely dealing with. So for example, the orbs, could that be sentient plasmoid? Possibly.

Joe Rogan 51:19 Sentient plasmoid.

David Grusch 51:20 Yeah, so.

Joe Rogan 51:20 So plasma that has consciousness.

David Grusch 51:22 Yeah. In some way, and that could be like you're seeing the other side of some sort of wormhole, and it's some other intelligence shooting this, like, I'll call it, like, plasmoidic probe into, you know, our existence. I mean, there's a, this is of course a theoretical framework, and once again, I don't have a PhD in astrophysics.

Joe Rogan 51:37 But it's theoretical that there is a life form that is a plasma-based life form.

David Grusch 51:42 And there's already papers on the open internet about this. A couple years ago, oh, what's the title of the, the paper? Uh, they wr- they wrote about this possibility. So this is a, um, academic assessment of a possibility of the orbs. Now, could the orbs actually be physical craft, but they have a sheath of plasma around it? Well, interestingly enough, and AAWSAP did a defense intelligence reference document on magnetohydrodynamic propulsion, um, which if you remember the hu- the movie The Hunt for Red October-

Joe Rogan 52:14 Mm-hmm

David Grusch 52:14 ... that's the caterpillar drive-

Joe Rogan 52:16 Mm

David Grusch 52:16 ... on the Russian submarine, you know, back in the day. Uh, and of course, uh, with MHD you can also do it... You have to use a conductive fluid, um, either salt, seawater that has salt in it, or, uh, you could do it in the air, but you have to create a plasma, and you steer the plasma with, it's called the Lorentz force. It's, it's basically of a perpendicular magnetic field, a large amount of electro- electricity, and you can basically through the Lorentz force, which is like ionic propulsion sorta, um, uh, control it in the, in the atmosphere as well. And you can, you know, read papers on that in IEEE a- and other stuff like that. And so one of the byproducts of an air-breathing MHD system is plasma around it. So depending on the size of the orb, um, it is conceivable that there's a physical craft behind it as well, just by, as an artifact of the propulsion system. Uh, once again, that's a, a theory. I'm sure the program knows, and that will be communicated at a later date, but, like, you know, that's, yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:15 So this theory about-

David Grusch 53:18 Yeah

Joe Rogan 53:18 ... sentient plasma.

David Grusch 53:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:20 Is it the idea that we have a very narrow-minded view of what life can be?

David Grusch 53:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:27 And that life as it evolved in other places, in other parts of the universe-

David Grusch 53:32 Went non-corporeal at some point. Like, the, the meat suit sucks. We're gonna-

Joe Rogan 53:36 Right

David Grusch 53:36 ... be an energetic-

Joe Rogan 53:37 Like, this is-

David Grusch 53:38 Yeah

Joe Rogan 53:38 ... an ultimate expression of both technology and at least enhanced evolution that eventually-

David Grusch 53:45 Right

Joe Rogan 53:45 ... consciousness is isolated or consciousness may be ubiquitous and exists in everything in ev- every anyway, and that-

David Grusch 53:53 Yeah. Yeah, certainly, and I'm not the, the expert in, I would say the, the consciousness theory. I like the Penrose-Hameroff Orch OR theory, which is the microtubules, the room temperature. So microtubules are in neurons of the brain, and you have this, like, room temperature quantum system that can collapse the wave function without an observer, and that's what Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff... And I've talked to Hameroff. Crazy smart guy. Um, he's an anesthesiologist by training, and Penrose obviously is a very famous mathematician and, uh, physics legend, and, uh, that's how they view consciousness. I'm not saying that's the exact model. I happen to prefer it, 'cause it's very trippy and very interesting and does explain spooky action and, like, um, telepathy 'cause oh, well, if it's just a quantum system, then I'm, like, quantumly entangled. Oh, that makes sense now, like why remote viewing and other stuff works.

Joe Rogan 54:45 Right.

David Grusch 54:46 So yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:46 Okay. So you have some sort of plasma-based intelligence.

David Grusch 54:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:52 And then what else?

David Grusch 54:54 So obviously there has been the physical craft of all different flavors, like I've talked about. You know, the Tic Tacs are real. There's eggs. There's different types of disks. There's boot heel, sunfish-looking things, um, uh, boomerangs, crescent moon-looking, uh, craft as well, and obviously all those have different- ... um, origins in terms of pilots and whatnot. There's a, there's a little bit of overlap. It's almost like, uh, certain people like the Porsche 911 or a Ford Mustang.

Joe Rogan 55:26 Mm-hmm.

David Grusch 55:26 They kind of build the same shape, and that's probably indicative of the technology or the propulsion system. I'm not an expert in exactly why that is. And yeah, we've recovered, you know, sever- several different types. And it's a, it's once again, it's a taxonomy where it's almost like, like not all white people look the same, right? And same idea where you might have like a species per se, but then there's sort of like subsets.

Joe Rogan 55:51 Right.

David Grusch 55:51 So, yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:52 Now, d- is there a theory or is there information based on where these things are from, and that they're different ones are from different places?

David Grusch 56:01 There is, but I never got access to that. And even if the information was ... 'Cause, uh, w- once again, how would you, like, um, confirm that as a s- skeptical former, uh, human intelligence officer? You have some sort of NHI communicating to you, "Oh, I'm from star system X, Y, and Z."

Joe Rogan 56:21 Right.

David Grusch 56:21 Cool. Is that denial and deception, you know, activities? Are you misdirecting?

Joe Rogan 56:26 Right.

David Grusch 56:26 You're from somewhere else. So, uh, even if they said they told us, how would you verify that? I mean, there's certainly obviously ways and ... But some of it seems, once again, extraterrestrial is part of the pie here, right? There's a, you know, there's ultra-terrestrial and other things, and I-- it does seem like a lot of it's been here for a while. And also seems so similar to us that I have questions. And once again, this isn't rhetorical. I don't know the answer. It's like, well, is this bioengineered? Is this, uh, a break from our tree? Is this, um, some sort of other technology, uh, like chameleon-type technology, if you will? I don't, I don't know the answer to that. So I, I think that's, that's-

Joe Rogan 57:13 What are the prevailing theories amongst the people that are working on this stuff?

David Grusch 57:17 Yeah. So-

Joe Rogan 57:18 Like, do they have answers or do they just have theories?

David Grusch 57:21 I am not certain of that 'cause I do not have that level of knowledge. And as the government rolls that out, I'm happy to, you know, parse that with the American people in public and kind of explain my opinion on things as gaps in information for myself is filled in. 'Cause I'm not omnipotent. I didn't have full access, and I only know what I know, and that's why I've, I've treated this with such reverence because even me going public, I'm like, "Fuck, I don't know what this is gonna trigger." Besides my own personal safety, which clearly I was under duress and, and I had to even resign my Air Force commission, didn't even fully retire, and I'm trying to get that fixed. I, you know, filed something with, uh, the Air Force board a year ago so I can actually retire and have my benefits 'cause I, you know, I missed my promotion to lieutenant colonel and other stuff. But, um, I digress. But, uh, certainly there is such similarity that there was a concern in, uh, from a genomic perspective, and there was work on that to compare genomes. Unfortunately, I don't know the answer to that and what they found out. I'm sure it'll come out.

Joe Rogan 58:26 Work to compare genomes from biological samples?

David Grusch 58:29 Uh, yeah, dead cadavers. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:31 So that's real.

David Grusch 58:33 Oh, 100%, yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:34 So there are-

David Grusch 58:35 Oh, yeah. I know that for sure

Joe Rogan 58:36 ... dead ... You, how do you know that for sure?

David Grusch 58:38 I got to see the audiovisual on that stuff.

Joe Rogan 58:40 You got to see what?

David Grusch 58:42 Yeah. So I gotta be a little vague only because I wanna protect the sources 'cause it, it may indicate a specific activity or operation, and these people were very patriotic and, um, they were just, uh, dead cadavers, uh, in, you know, on the ground because it was-

Joe Rogan 58:58 You-

David Grusch 58:58 ... a retrieval activity. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:00 You saw them physically or you saw video of them?

David Grusch 59:02 Video.

Joe Rogan 59:03 Video.

David Grusch 59:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:04 So you saw dead cadaver that was at a crash?

David Grusch 59:09 Yes.

Joe Rogan 59:10 So they filmed the crash, and they filmed these cadavers.

David Grusch 59:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:15 How old is this footage?

David Grusch 59:17 Uh, I don't wanna say.

Joe Rogan 59:18 Okay. It's-

David Grusch 59:18 It's contemporary, but I-

Joe Rogan 59:19 It's contemporary.

David Grusch 59:20 Yeah, but I don't wanna reveal a particular operation 'cause it narrows it down to-

Joe Rogan 59:23 Right

David Grusch 59:23 ... you know, so.

Joe Rogan 59:24 But it's clear.

David Grusch 59:25 Mm-hmm. Very.

Joe Rogan 59:25 It's not like you're looking at 1950s black and white.

David Grusch 59:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:28 It's clear.

David Grusch 59:29 And do know, you know, when I get that kind of information, you know, I'm like, "Tell me what it is. What, what happened?" And then I put it out for collection, so to speak, and then I confirm it independently. 'Cause I was very, uh, allergic to any kind of deception, right? Like-

Joe Rogan 59:44 Uh-huh

David Grusch 59:44 ... 'cause in the, in the advent of AI, Sora AI, you can, you can create a very-

Joe Rogan 59:48 Of course

David Grusch 59:48 ... realistic. And so I was very anal retentive when I was given documents, audiovisual, et cetera, and I sat on that stuff for, like, years until I felt comfortable with that not being some sort of limited hangout or deception-

Joe Rogan 1:00:03 Right

David Grusch 1:00:03 ... activity. So yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:05 What did it look like?

David Grusch 1:00:06 Human-looking.

Joe Rogan 1:00:07 How human?

David Grusch 1:00:08 Very.

Joe Rogan 1:00:09 Like, like looked like a human or looked similar to a human?

David Grusch 1:00:13 Very, very beautiful and-

Joe Rogan 1:00:17 Beautiful

David Grusch 1:00:17 ... it, it, and I, I said this in-

Joe Rogan 1:00:19 What color was the skin?

David Grusch 1:00:20 A bluish white and-

Joe Rogan 1:00:22 Like Avatar?

David Grusch 1:00:23 ... it wasn't super close. No, no, no, no, no. It, like, like-

Joe Rogan 1:00:26 Like someone who drowned?

David Grusch 1:00:27 Like a pale sort of albino. And-

Joe Rogan 1:00:30 Oh.

David Grusch 1:00:30 And it's interesting, and I said this in another interview that's not out yet, but, and, and God willing, this is my last interview for a while, hopefully in pre-disclosure environment, you know. And, uh, uh, General McCaslin when he was talking to DeLong, and this is public record. Tom's talked about it on, I think, your show and, and other interviews where he always told Tom, "Think of the Greek gods." And, and oh, true, you look it up, and, and now I kind of understand what he meant. But General McCaslin, who disappeared within a week of Trump giving the, the declassification order on UAP in February 2026. There's a lot of reasons why, uh, McCaslin's disappearance, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:01:08 Disappeared. How so?

David Grusch 1:01:09 ... was very concerning. Um, he walked out of his residence in Albuquerque and vanished.

Joe Rogan 1:01:13 Oh, that's right. That guy.

David Grusch 1:01:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:15 Yeah.

David Grusch 1:01:15 Yeah. And nobody knows, and I, you know, I have a relationship obviously with Justice and- Nobody knows what fucking happened to the guy.

Joe Rogan 1:01:25 Just vanished.

David Grusch 1:01:25 And he, like, he left shit home so he couldn't be tracked. I think his phone was left, but, you know, one of his firearms was missing.

Joe Rogan 1:01:31 Right.

David Grusch 1:01:32 It's, like, very weird, so.

Joe Rogan 1:01:34 Right, he left without his phone.

David Grusch 1:01:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:35 Yeah, that was one of the weird parts about it.

David Grusch 1:01:38 Yeah, and, and, and once again, he was going on a trip with, like, 18 of his friends. He went to REI the day before to get, like, a medical kit and other supplies. And, I mean, obviously his wife's discussion about him, the body cam footage is public. And, uh, sh- you know, he had some mental health issues, nothing major and, and, um, some, uh, aging-type issues. But sh- she didn't think, you know, he was gonna, like, kill himself or whatever. So, I mean, you never know, and I've had friends un- unfortunately, uh, pass away through suicide in the military, but-

Joe Rogan 1:02:11 Right

David Grusch 1:02:12 ... it's, it's very bizarre and it's when within a week of Trump, that coming out. And, um, just saying it a lot about General McCaslin, so.

Joe Rogan 1:02:20 Well, there's quite a few scientists that were connected to UF- UAP disclosure or UAP potential back engineering projects or mysterious projects.

David Grusch 1:02:29 Possibly. I think-

Joe Rogan 1:02:31 Do you think there was more, like-

David Grusch 1:02:32 To be fair, it was a little overblown.

Joe Rogan 1:02:33 Uh-huh.

David Grusch 1:02:34 And I don't think there was a ton of correlation. Like, one was, like, a, a female that worked at Air Force Research Lab when McCaslin was a commander. I think that was one of ... Well, I mean, there's a lot of people that work at Air Force Research Lab. That doesn't mean it's necessarily related to the topic. I ... The only one-

Joe Rogan 1:02:48 But didn't she have-

David Grusch 1:02:49 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:02:49 ... did, didn't that one particular lady, if it's the same person-

David Grusch 1:02:52 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:02:52 ... didn't she have some sort of research that was on material science?

David Grusch 1:02:56 That sounds correct. I'm not totally conversant on all the people that disappeared. The only one besides McCaslin that was very concerning to me was my Air Force friend that, um, died mysteriously about two years ago. And it's an open investigation, so I won't get into all the gory detail in my assessments. Um, it ... I mean, it's, it's binary. It's either a very tragic thing, either self-harm or otherwise, or it was something else.

Joe Rogan 1:03:26 Mm.

David Grusch 1:03:27 And my friend, uh, his name's, uh, Matthew Sullivan, call sign Quake in the Air Force. Him and I were on active duty together. Uh, he was on the program. And he was, uh, one of my sources. And I ... And I, once again, I don't name people, but, like, he unfortunately has passed, so I wanna make that clear, so, you know.

Joe Rogan 1:03:45 This video, do you think this will be a part of disclosure, that we'll get to see this video of these dead bodies?

David Grusch 1:03:51 Probably. Probably. So there's a-

Joe Rogan 1:03:55 So this is in-

David Grusch 1:03:55 There's a, there's a lot of audiovisual stuff. The problem with the, the gov- with the, the current climate, like you're gonna have to wheel out the physical evidence too, 'cause people are ... The trust in government is so low right now. Like you could, you could show a video, but people are gonna be like, "Oh, well, that's just the US government fucking with us."

Joe Rogan 1:04:10 Right.

David Grusch 1:04:10 And you're gonna have to-

Joe Rogan 1:04:11 Of course

David Grusch 1:04:11 ... curate a wheel out, literally, like, you know, put it in the Uvar-Hazy Center or the Smithsonian, and then give the biological samples to Eric Weinstein, who I know he wants it. [laughs] And-

Joe Rogan 1:04:24 Why would you give it to him?

David Grusch 1:04:25 Well, he says he has people to, to test it, um, to-

Joe Rogan 1:04:29 I have people to test it too.

David Grusch 1:04:30 Yeah, yeah. Ex- but yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:31 Give it to me. [laughs]

David Grusch 1:04:32 I'm, I'm just, I'm just saying that to-

Joe Rogan 1:04:33 It's all ridiculous to give it to who

David Grusch 1:04:34 ... to, to make fun of them. Like, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:35 There should be-

David Grusch 1:04:36 Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:04:36 ... a way that h- human beings, uh, other than the government can look at this stuff.

David Grusch 1:04:40 Well, there needs to be an independent-

Joe Rogan 1:04:42 Biologists

David Grusch 1:04:42 ... verification process, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:43 Right. Now-

David Grusch 1:04:44 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:04:44 ... is this stuff ... So this is contemporary-

David Grusch 1:04:47 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:04:47 ... this, this dead body thing.

David Grusch 1:04:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:50 And so this is a fairly recent crash.

David Grusch 1:04:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:55 And did these things have all the characteristics of a human being? Did they have ears and a nose?

David Grusch 1:05:01 Yeah, as far as I could recall. And it wasn't, like, ultra-

Joe Rogan 1:05:04 What color ... Did they have hair?

David Grusch 1:05:05 ... ultra close up. Uh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:06 Dead hair.

David Grusch 1:05:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:07 What color was their hair?

David Grusch 1:05:08 It was, like, grayish and all that. It was ... The problem is, I don't ... Uh, given the nature of the, the video. It wasn't super close up. It was like-

Joe Rogan 1:05:17 Of course not

David Grusch 1:05:18 ... during the operation. So it's not like-

Joe Rogan 1:05:21 During the operation-

David Grusch 1:05:22 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:05:22 ... of retrieval.

David Grusch 1:05:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:23 Okay. And then they, they had these things.

David Grusch 1:05:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:26 So what is your understanding of what happens to these bodies?

David Grusch 1:05:30 Oh, they're kept for analysis and, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:05:32 How do they keep them? They freeze them?

David Grusch 1:05:34 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't know the exact process. I'm not a biologist, but they do put it in some sort of preservation status, so.

Joe Rogan 1:05:42 Huh.

David Grusch 1:05:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:43 So was that the most compelling thing you saw?

David Grusch 1:05:47 Yes, 'cause, you know, it couples with, you know, both the, the craft and the alleged, you know, occupants. And, you know, there was some other stuff in that, in that area that I gotta be careful talking about 'cause it's so specific that it'll easily ID the, you know, the-

Joe Rogan 1:06:01 Got it

David Grusch 1:06:02 ... patriot that helped me on that. Um, and once again, I want the public to see all this stuff. And y-

Joe Rogan 1:06:07 Right

David Grusch 1:06:07 ... I ... You don't, don't take my word for it. Plead with the president to make sure this comes out.

Joe Rogan 1:06:13 When you-

David Grusch 1:06:13 He's gonna be courageous to do so, and I just ... And I hope this all comes out.

Joe Rogan 1:06:15 When you say contemporary, you mean the last 20 years?

David Grusch 1:06:18 Uh-

Joe Rogan 1:06:18 More recent?

David Grusch 1:06:19 I don't even wanna characterize-

Joe Rogan 1:06:20 Okay

David Grusch 1:06:20 ... it, but it's, it's contemporary.

Joe Rogan 1:06:22 And then when you say Greek gods-

David Grusch 1:06:24 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:06:24 ... like, did these, these creatures actually look like something special? Like, not just like a, a regular person. You said beautiful.

David Grusch 1:06:32 Yeah, just very oddly ... I, it's ... And it's been a while, and ... But I'm just trying to visualize in my mind. It was just very, very beautiful. It was just ... It's what I remember.

Joe Rogan 1:06:40 Were they wearing an outfit?

David Grusch 1:06:42 Uh, it looked like it, like some kind of form-fitting thing, but I didn't get a good look at it, unfortunately.

Joe Rogan 1:06:46 Like spandex?

David Grusch 1:06:47 I don't know. I didn't get a good look at it, honestly.

Joe Rogan 1:06:49 You didn't?

David Grusch 1:06:50 So. No. I mean, it was like a, a pan, so.

Joe Rogan 1:06:52 Okay.

David Grusch 1:06:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:52 So they didn't even focus on the bodies?

David Grusch 1:06:54 No.

Joe Rogan 1:06:54 They just like, "Oh, there's a body lying on the ground."

David Grusch 1:06:56 No.

Joe Rogan 1:06:56 "Let's keep moving."

David Grusch 1:06:56 'Cause it ... There ... You know, people had a job to do.

Joe Rogan 1:06:59 Right.

David Grusch 1:06:59 So.

Joe Rogan 1:06:59 Did you worry with that-

David Grusch 1:07:00 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:07:00 ... that that's a PSYOP, that you're being shown something that's horseshit?

David Grusch 1:07:03 Well, like I said, I was very careful with that and confirmed it through other sources and methods to make sure it wasn't some sort of hangout from some government element trying to sway me one way-

Joe Rogan 1:07:13 Got it

David Grusch 1:07:14 ... or the other, and yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:15 So you independently verified that there was an event?

David Grusch 1:07:18 Yeah. I did.

Joe Rogan 1:07:19 Okay. And then there's footage of this event. And in this footage of this event, how many bodies were there?

David Grusch 1:07:24 I think three or four is what I saw. I don't know what the total was, but-

Joe Rogan 1:07:26 Did they have gender?

David Grusch 1:07:28 Um, looked amorphous to me, but once again, it was a pan.

Joe Rogan 1:07:32 Really?

David Grusch 1:07:32 It wasn't... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:33 Okay.

David Grusch 1:07:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:33 Long hair, short hair?

David Grusch 1:07:35 Long.

Joe Rogan 1:07:36 All of them?

David Grusch 1:07:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:38 Hmm.

David Grusch 1:07:38 That I could recall, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:40 The Greek gods thing is very weird.

David Grusch 1:07:42 It's weird and-

Joe Rogan 1:07:43 It's a weird comparison. Like, you stop and think about that.

David Grusch 1:07:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:45 Yeah. Well, why were the Greek gods so beautiful and living in the sky?

David Grusch 1:07:48 It's funny you say that, because, like, I think about, like, breakaway human. I mean, th- once again, I'm just-

Joe Rogan 1:07:53 Uh-huh

David Grusch 1:07:53 ... I'm just, uh, s-

Joe Rogan 1:07:54 Or maybe even-

David Grusch 1:07:55 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:07:55 ... an original civilization-

David Grusch 1:07:56 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:07:56 ... that existed before.

David Grusch 1:07:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:59 There's m- m- more people are leaning in that direction when they start looking at some of the stuff that's underneath the pyramids and-

David Grusch 1:08:05 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:08:05 ... some of the weird structures that they're finding all over the earth. Like, how, how were these thing... We had a whole podcast-

David Grusch 1:08:10 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:08:11 ... yesterday about it. It's like, how were these things made? Who made these things? Like, what-

David Grusch 1:08:14 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, obviously I, I, uh, follow Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson just-

Joe Rogan 1:08:19 Mm-hmm

David Grusch 1:08:19 ... you know, casually. And, and I do have, um, f- not fears, but, uh, you know, I have questions about some sort of breakaway human civilization, and that explains some of this. Or it's bio-engineered, 'cause, like, for them to develop naturally, say, off-planet, say, if it's extraterrestrial, that it looks almost dead ringer, like us, like that doesn't make any sense to me.

Joe Rogan 1:08:42 Well, does it make sense-

David Grusch 1:08:43 Yeah. Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:08:43 ... if we're engineered? Then it makes sense. So-

David Grusch 1:08:46 That is, that is certainly a possibility.

Joe Rogan 1:08:48 Yeah.

David Grusch 1:08:48 You know, I have questions about that, too.

Joe Rogan 1:08:50 This is a... This is what Bob Lazar believes. I had a long conversation with him about that. He thinks that human beings are a product of genetic ev- some sort of manipulation.

David Grusch 1:09:00 Hmm. And I think hypothetically if that ended up being verified in some way, shape, or form, you know, how, how does that change humanity? What does it mean to be human? And I, I think there's a lot of deep human sovereignty and other questions, uh, on that, if that ends up being the case.

Joe Rogan 1:09:16 Well, it gets weird-

David Grusch 1:09:17 So, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:09:17 ... because we're willing to believe that an omnipotent God created us-

David Grusch 1:09:22 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:09:22 ... out of nothing. That's cool.

David Grusch 1:09:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:24 But the idea that we were visited by what's essentially almost godlike in their powers and abilities, some creature from somewhere else, or some being, some-

David Grusch 1:09:34 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:09:34 ... super hyper-intelligent being from somewhere else, and they manipulated us, that bothers us.

David Grusch 1:09:40 I know, and I-

Joe Rogan 1:09:40 It's weird.

David Grusch 1:09:41 My biggest regret was not getting access to, like, the biological assessment reports and stuff like that. I was getting enough spears thrown my way, and I was, you know, in literal danger, so I unfortunately wasn't able to kind of, you know, um, get access to that stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:09:55 Have you talked to anybody who did get access to it?

David Grusch 1:09:58 Um, not on that side of the program in terms of, like, the scientists analyzing the bodies, no. I just, I know people that are good friends of mine that were on retrievals and saw them as well in person. And once again, I'm, like, comparing, like, "Well, did it, did you, did it look like this? Did it look like this? Did this happen? Was it this type of craft?"

Joe Rogan 1:10:17 Do they vary in terms of what they saw?

David Grusch 1:10:19 Yes. And, uh, some of my colleagues saw them alive as well. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:26 And what did they see alive? Like, the Greek god-looking ones?

David Grusch 1:10:28 Uh, no. Uh, it's... The pop culture... Okay, I can't wait. I don't want to talk about this. Uh, the pop culture-

Joe Rogan 1:10:35 Like Grays?

David Grusch 1:10:36 Uh, reptilian-looking.

Joe Rogan 1:10:37 Reptilian.

David Grusch 1:10:39 The G- the Grays, yes, as well. Those are real. Once again, the Ariel School phenomenon in 1994, very well-documented mass sighting. What did the kids-

Joe Rogan 1:10:47 Is that in Zimbabwe?

David Grusch 1:10:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:49 Oh.

David Grusch 1:10:49 Near a uranium mine.

Joe Rogan 1:10:51 Ooh.

David Grusch 1:10:52 And they saw small gray beings coming out of a lenticular disc craft. Once again, this is why it's almost, like, not that shocking. It's like, yeah, they look like that. No shit.

Joe Rogan 1:11:02 Well, that story-

David Grusch 1:11:03 So

Joe Rogan 1:11:03 ... has been going on for a long-

David Grusch 1:11:05 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:11:05 ... time, and that iconic... The problem with, like, iconic imagery-

David Grusch 1:11:09 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:11:09 ... is that now you have it in your head what to expect. And, like, that was f- like, from the movie Contact. Remember the movie Contact? Like, it showed itself.

David Grusch 1:11:17 Great movie.

Joe Rogan 1:11:18 Great movie.

David Grusch 1:11:19 Great movie. I know my boy Amar, I got him hooked on that movie. He watches it, like, every quarter. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:11:23 It's a phenomenal movie.

David Grusch 1:11:24 So, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:25 But there's a scene in the movie where the alien shows itself as Jodie Foster's dad.

David Grusch 1:11:31 I know.

Joe Rogan 1:11:32 Because that's something that she can handle.

David Grusch 1:11:34 And that's what... It's funny you say that. That's what, if they're bio-engineered, then that makes sense because of the ease of contact, ease of communication, also less ontologically shocking. It's familiar.

Joe Rogan 1:11:44 Right.

David Grusch 1:11:45 And, and I think as this rolls out, I think the American people need to think about, like, okay, well, if, you know, I'm presented with this reality, how would I react? You know, I, I just think of them personally as, like, it's like my West Virginian cousins. You know? It's like a different part of the family, you know, but, but w- I'm cool with them.

Joe Rogan 1:12:02 [laughs]

David Grusch 1:12:02 And, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:12:03 That's a fucking [laughs] crazy-

David Grusch 1:12:05 I'll chill, I'll, I'll chill with them.

Joe Rogan 1:12:06 [laughs]

David Grusch 1:12:06 You know, whatever. And hey-

Joe Rogan 1:12:08 Oh

David Grusch 1:12:08 ... hey, I'm a nerd. Like, do you know how bad I wanna just, like, hang out with them?

Joe Rogan 1:12:12 Oh, yeah. Me too.

David Grusch 1:12:13 Like, that-

Joe Rogan 1:12:14 Of course

David Grusch 1:12:14 ... not that I have, like, a personal bias for President Trump to do this, but, like, just like any American, I like, I wanna know more.

Joe Rogan 1:12:20 Of course.

David Grusch 1:12:21 I wanna meet them. I wanna communicate. I wanna-

Joe Rogan 1:12:23 Well, I think it's just-

David Grusch 1:12:24 ... you know, all that, so

Joe Rogan 1:12:25 ... it's wrong-

David Grusch 1:12:26 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:12:26 ... for some people to have access to this information because I, this, I think this is different than any other kind of secret information.

David Grusch 1:12:33 I know.

Joe Rogan 1:12:33 I think its weight and its significance and impact on the human race in general, I, I mean, I demand. I d- I wa- I... We should know. You shouldn't, there shouldn't be-

David Grusch 1:12:46 I know

Joe Rogan 1:12:46 ... a group of unelected bureaucrats and defense contractors that have access to this stuff, and the general public doesn't. So they have a completely different map of the world-

David Grusch 1:12:57 I know

Joe Rogan 1:12:57 ... than we do.

David Grusch 1:12:58 I know, and I just think about the unfortunate lies and how society has progressed over the last several decades, and where we could've been if this was handled back in the '50s, '60s, and '70s.

Joe Rogan 1:13:09 Right.

David Grusch 1:13:09 And once again, it shouldn't even be me doing this. Like, I saw a little bit of crazy shit. I learned some stuff. I met with some of the most senior people in government to confirm all this, you know, at the highest, highest, highest level. And, um, it's me. Like-

Joe Rogan 1:13:23 Mm-hmm

David Grusch 1:13:23 ... I'm just a dude. Like, I'm d- I was a, you know, major in the Air Force, and, you know, mid-level senior civilian in the IC. But unfortunately- Uh, I got stuck with this, and it wouldn't have happened unless this small crew, you know, honestly pushed me over the edge. And, you know, I, I was in unbelievable duress, and I ended up having to go public, so.

Joe Rogan 1:13:44 So tell me more about these reptilians that your friend encountered. They were alive.

David Grusch 1:13:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:49 So they were alive post-crash?

David Grusch 1:13:52 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:13:53 Why do these things keep fucking crashing?

David Grusch 1:13:55 So some of it is, um, NHI versus NHI.

Joe Rogan 1:14:01 What?

David Grusch 1:14:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:02 They war in the sky. Isn't that-

David Grusch 1:14:04 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:14:05 ... in the...

David Grusch 1:14:05 You think it's like, wouldn't they get along? They're so advanced.

Joe Rogan 1:14:08 Yeah.

David Grusch 1:14:08 But, uh, the... We have records of them fucking around with each other, so.

Joe Rogan 1:14:12 Is that in the Mahabharata or the Bhagavad Gita? There's-

David Grusch 1:14:15 I don't know

Joe Rogan 1:14:16 ... there's, like, talk about w- sky wars in ancient Hindu texts.

David Grusch 1:14:19 In, in Vedic... Oh, yeah, in the Vedic texts.

Joe Rogan 1:14:21 Yes.

David Grusch 1:14:21 The blue people. And, uh, I know that's why you asked blue. I don't recall them being that blue, but, you know.

Joe Rogan 1:14:28 Right.

David Grusch 1:14:28 I got a short little look, unlike-

Joe Rogan 1:14:29 Maybe when they're alive they're darker

David Grusch 1:14:30 ... 10 seconds. [laughs] Well, y- it... That is true. There's, like, a post-mortem change in their affect.

Joe Rogan 1:14:37 Sure, like people.

David Grusch 1:14:38 Yeah. It-

Joe Rogan 1:14:38 That's what happens with people

David Grusch 1:14:38 ... that, that is true. 'Cause, you know, as they str- were struggling and then died, obviously their affect changed and, you know, weird shit, so.

Joe Rogan 1:14:46 Now, this friend that encountered re- First of all, the... We'll, we'll go to the, the Greek god people first.

David Grusch 1:14:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:53 What did their craft look like?

David Grusch 1:14:55 A boomerang, crescent moon usually. Not all the time. It's kind of like once they go back. Some people like to drive the Porsche 911. Uh, that tends to be, not all the time, but, uh, that's what they like to roll up in. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:15:11 They, they, they talk about them as the tall whites.

David Grusch 1:15:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:15:14 You hear that? Were they tall? Were they large?

David Grusch 1:15:16 They looked tall to me. I didn't have, like-

Joe Rogan 1:15:18 But hard to tell because you don't... Right. You just get in a video.

David Grusch 1:15:19 I didn't have a ground reference, really.

Joe Rogan 1:15:21 Right.

David Grusch 1:15:21 I would say at least human size. They could be, like-

Joe Rogan 1:15:25 Just, like, very similar to humans to you.

David Grusch 1:15:27 Yeah. They could be my big ass of 6'6", but, like-

Joe Rogan 1:15:29 Right

David Grusch 1:15:30 ... the... They looked big. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:15:32 Similar to humans.

David Grusch 1:15:33 I think so.

Joe Rogan 1:15:34 Okay.

David Grusch 1:15:34 And there might be taller. Once again, I'm sure there's other stuff I don't know about. I'm sure there's other variants of them, too, that look more towards, like, the classic, um, [tsks] oh, what is it in ufology? Like Nordic or, you know, tall whites-

Joe Rogan 1:15:48 Uh-huh

David Grusch 1:15:48 ... um, that are probably even taller. If some of those, uh, experiencer stories are true, which once again, as long as that source is credible, that might be a thing. So I think we need-

Joe Rogan 1:16:00 Right

David Grusch 1:16:00 ... to be prepared to kind of... That being a thing. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:16:03 Yeah.

David Grusch 1:16:03 So.

Joe Rogan 1:16:03 That makes sense.

David Grusch 1:16:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:05 Now, the reptilian craft. What did that thing look like?

David Grusch 1:16:09 Uh, that one is Tic Tac looking.

Joe Rogan 1:16:12 Uh-oh.

David Grusch 1:16:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:14 I was hoping they were the cool ones.

David Grusch 1:16:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:15 The re- reptilian ones are the ones that everyone's terrified of.

David Grusch 1:16:17 Yeah. And, and once again, like, we're, we're doing, like... And of course it's not always the Tic Tac, once again, kind of like what I said. But, like-

Joe Rogan 1:16:25 Uh-huh

David Grusch 1:16:25 ... that tends to be them. Um, from what I understand... Obviously, hopefully I'm not wrong, but I'm, you know, I... Pretty good sourcing on that. Uh, when you see, like, um, malevolent behavior, right? It's like, well, that's a humanistic lens. You're seeing, like, a animal lash out in captivi- captivity kind of thing, or they're in duress. They're having an emotional experience, et cetera. And it's like, you know, are they actually scary or is it just because of the situations we've been in with them-

Joe Rogan 1:16:51 Mm-hmm

David Grusch 1:16:51 ... and so we're kind of biased and, and all that?

Joe Rogan 1:16:53 Right.

David Grusch 1:16:53 So.

Joe Rogan 1:16:53 Of course.

David Grusch 1:16:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:55 And so these reptilians, what did they look like?

David Grusch 1:16:58 Now, I've never seen them-

Joe Rogan 1:16:59 Right

David Grusch 1:16:59 ... personally.

Joe Rogan 1:16:59 But what did your friend describe them as?

David Grusch 1:17:01 But it's, like, very almost, like, um, seven foot tall plus, uh, sort of gorilla-looking. Scaly-

Joe Rogan 1:17:09 Gorilla-looking. Ew

David Grusch 1:17:10 ... scaly skin, though.

Joe Rogan 1:17:11 Rep- reptile gorillas?

David Grusch 1:17:12 But, but there's multiple types. There's ones that are, are more humanoid-looking, so.

Joe Rogan 1:17:19 There's multiple types-

David Grusch 1:17:20 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:17:20 ... of reptilians.

David Grusch 1:17:20 Yeah. And I'm not an expert on that one. That's... Once again, I never saw it in person to get the exact, uh, you know, descriptions.

Joe Rogan 1:17:27 See if there's a artist rendition. I'm looking already.

David Grusch 1:17:30 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:31 [laughs] Of course you are.

David Grusch 1:17:32 Yeah. And once again, it, it sounds-

Joe Rogan 1:17:34 Oh, here we go. A keyword for this whole thing

David Grusch 1:17:35 ... it sounds so schizo. Like, even for me-

Joe Rogan 1:17:37 It does. A gorilla with scales

David Grusch 1:17:38 ... as an ex- ex-deep state intel officer, I'm like, "I cannot fucking believe-

Joe Rogan 1:17:42 Seven foot tall

David Grusch 1:17:42 ... I'm talking about this shit on Joe Rogan."

Joe Rogan 1:17:43 Scare- scaly gorilla. [laughs]

David Grusch 1:17:45 Yeah, I know. And I, it, it... I mean, it sounds schizo. And it's, like, coming from somebody like me, you know, who, you know, is a credible person and has been in government, it's like I, I'm gonna be that guy.

Joe Rogan 1:17:55 But it is.

David Grusch 1:17:55 I'm gonna be that guy.

Joe Rogan 1:17:56 Right.

David Grusch 1:17:56 And then, like, down the road, people will review Joe Rogan, and he's like, "That motherfucker, we thought he was crazy, but-

Joe Rogan 1:18:02 Yeah

David Grusch 1:18:02 ... what do you know?" You know? It's true. So.

Joe Rogan 1:18:03 Well, of course, if there are things from somewhere else, you, you're gonna sound crazy describing any of them.

David Grusch 1:18:08 'Cause it's, it's so outside my experience. 'Cause I never had some kind of woo thing growing up-

Joe Rogan 1:18:14 Right

David Grusch 1:18:14 ... or some sort of interaction with the phenomenon. So it, it, it, it feels so outside my personal comfort level and experience because, um, I'm relying on the personal experience of others. You know-

Joe Rogan 1:18:25 Yes

David Grusch 1:18:26 ... audiovisual stuff. And it still feels like I'm watching a movie. Like, it's like, is that... Is it real? I mean, I know it is, but, like, it's... I have a cognitive dissidence a little bit, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:18:34 Uh-huh.

David Grusch 1:18:34 So.

Joe Rogan 1:18:35 And how are you able to watch this video? Do they have to put you into a secret room?

David Grusch 1:18:38 Yeah. I won't get into the exact-

Joe Rogan 1:18:40 Okay

David Grusch 1:18:40 ... way it, it went down, but, uh, uh, we'll just say it was, uh, kind of sketchy, but, uh, it, it, it... To, to keep everybody safe, so.

Joe Rogan 1:18:49 And so-

David Grusch 1:18:50 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:18:50 ... there apparently is NHI versus NHI warfare.

David Grusch 1:18:55 We've, we've documented that.

Joe Rogan 1:18:56 Documented it.

David Grusch 1:18:57 Yeah. In collection. Well, what we perceive as warfare, so. Unless it's something-

Joe Rogan 1:19:02 It's conflict

David Grusch 1:19:03 ... Yeah, it looks like conflict. It smells like conflict. Is it some other kind of weird shit? I don't know. And there's maybe an assessment on that, but it... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:09 And, um, when this reptilian craft crashed, the assumption was that it was some sort of conflict? 'Cause I would imagine if-

David Grusch 1:19:18 Correct

Joe Rogan 1:19:18 ... that they're the ones you'd have to worry about.

David Grusch 1:19:20 Correct. 'Cause there was dead, uh, dead grays there, too, so.

Joe Rogan 1:19:24 Oh.

David Grusch 1:19:24 Yeah. So.

Joe Rogan 1:19:25 So the grays and the reptilians-

David Grusch 1:19:26 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:19:26 ... were duking it out?

David Grusch 1:19:27 Yeah. I guess.

Joe Rogan 1:19:29 Yo.

David Grusch 1:19:29 I guess. You know. You know, I know the people who were there, and, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:19:32 This sounds fucking insane, David.

David Grusch 1:19:34 I... It sounds fucking crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:19:36 [laughs]

David Grusch 1:19:36 And, and once again, I don't wanna get in too many specifics 'cause this is a very unique- There's a couple unique retrievals out there-

Joe Rogan 1:19:43 Uh-huh

David Grusch 1:19:43 ... that, to protect the innocents and people that have risked their fucking lives. 'Cause a, a lot of the people that, uh, came to me with that kind of information, I mean, they were physically threatened like me and, and all that. And, and so, like, me going public was taking it for the team because I was able to create this umbrella of, uh, tacit, you know, protection in case somebody got fucked with. Now, unfortunately, you know, my, my friend Matt, who knows what happened to him, but, um, you know, tragically he died, you know, mysteriously so.

Joe Rogan 1:20:10 Now these reptilians, what was their craft like?

David Grusch 1:20:15 Oh, like I said, the-

Joe Rogan 1:20:16 The tic-tac

David Grusch 1:20:16 ... the tic-tac stuff. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:20:17 And was their craft crashed into the ground, like broken up?

David Grusch 1:20:21 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:20:21 Okay.

David Grusch 1:20:22 It was, like, wedged into hills.

Joe Rogan 1:20:23 Like, had it been hit with something?

David Grusch 1:20:25 Um, I don't remember exactly what happened in that regard, but it did crash, so. And I don't wanna misspeak on what exactly happened, so.

Joe Rogan 1:20:35 And how many times has this happened, if you had to guess?

David Grusch 1:20:38 I don't know the total number of, like, uh, adversarial conflict crashes, but it, I mean, it seems to be at least a dozen or two. I don't know, so.

Joe Rogan 1:20:48 So at least a dozen or two adversarial crashes. And then there's the high altitude nuclear tests.

David Grusch 1:20:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:20:56 Right? You're aware of those, right?

David Grusch 1:20:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:20:59 Okay. So there's been a lot of speculation that during those high altitude nuclear tests, that crafts that didn't know what was coming got rocked. Do you know anything about that?

David Grusch 1:21:12 That's an area that I'll let the government handle. That's 'cause it gets into vulnerabilities and, and, and what the US has figured out. So that just gets in a sensitive area, but that's something I'm sure that'll, that'll come out in this process, 'cause-

Joe Rogan 1:21:26 So you can't talk about that, is that what you're saying?

David Grusch 1:21:27 Yeah, just because it gets into, um, US capabilities and what we figured out in terms of, uh, technologies.

Joe Rogan 1:21:32 Well, this is all, like, from the '50s, right?

David Grusch 1:21:34 Yeah. But we still got nukes, and we still got, uh, those kind of weapons, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:21:38 Right

David Grusch 1:21:38 ... stashed away, so.

Joe Rogan 1:21:39 You're aware of those, um, uh, the, it was, uh, what, what was it, Jamie? Was it, um, a telescope that they were t- they y- they were taking photographs of the stars, and they were doing it with, uh... Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, the, all the- Right ... dots popped up thing that they- Yes ... yeah, I guess that's, like, two or three weeks ago. Right. We talked about that a couple weeks ago. Yeah. It was an observatory, and the observatory has these old plates of, uh, images that they took of the sky.

David Grusch 1:22:07 Oh, is this B- Beatrice's work?

Joe Rogan 1:22:09 Yes.

David Grusch 1:22:10 The Vasco?

Joe Rogan 1:22:11 Yes.

David Grusch 1:22:11 Um, yeah, I read it. Very interesting.

Joe Rogan 1:22:13 Yes.

David Grusch 1:22:14 And, um-

Joe Rogan 1:22:14 That it-

David Grusch 1:22:14 ... it's hard to make an exact conclusion if, i- if it's UAP, but it's-

Joe Rogan 1:22:19 Right

David Grusch 1:22:19 ... really great original scholarship-

Joe Rogan 1:22:21 It is awesome

David Grusch 1:22:21 ... and I applaud her for, for doing that.

Joe Rogan 1:22:22 But there-

David Grusch 1:22:23 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:22:23 ... appeared to be moving, uh, reflective things that were outside of our atmosphere that they were taking images of. They, they were not static. They were not stars.

David Grusch 1:22:34 Pre-Sputnik, too. That was the important thing.

Joe Rogan 1:22:35 Yes, pre-Sputnik. Very important because-

David Grusch 1:22:37 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:22:37 ... there, there was no satellites at the time. This was images that they took of the sky-

David Grusch 1:22:41 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:22:41 ... that showed things that were reflective, that seemed to be metallic, allegedly.

David Grusch 1:22:46 And if I remember her paper correctly, and with her co-authors, it also, there were cluster concentrations over sensitive nuclear facilities and nuclear testing. Um, [lips smack] uh, d- uh, chron- chronological temporal correlation as well, so.

Joe Rogan 1:23:01 So data shows unidentified lights in archival astronomy images were 68% more likely to be imaged 24 hours after a nuclear weapons test.

David Grusch 1:23:10 Yeah, like I was saying. Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:23:11 Right. So this is chronologically, like, we have these nuclear weapons tests, including these high altitude detonations like Ope- Operation Starfish Prime.

David Grusch 1:23:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:23:20 We detonate these things, and then all of a sudden these crafts start showing up like, "Hey, what are these fucking crazy monkeys up to?"

David Grusch 1:23:29 It does seem like there was a heightened amount of activity once we started testing nuclear weapons.

Joe Rogan 1:23:33 Oh, yeah.

David Grusch 1:23:34 Obviously, this phenomenon's old. It's interacted with man in antiquity. You know, Jacques Vallée's scholarship on that, Passport to Magonia-

Joe Rogan 1:23:40 Yes

David Grusch 1:23:40 ... and that, but yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:23:41 That's why the names of our rooms at the comedy club are Fat Man and Little Boy.

David Grusch 1:23:45 Oh, nice.

Joe Rogan 1:23:46 Yeah.

David Grusch 1:23:46 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:23:47 Because that's what ushered... 'Cause it's the comedy mothership. It's a UFOs based thing.

David Grusch 1:23:50 Yeah, if you go to the Air Force Museum, um, they have the, the Enola Gay there, I think. Is that right?

Joe Rogan 1:23:55 Mm.

David Grusch 1:23:56 It's one, it's one of the planes.

Joe Rogan 1:23:57 Oh, wow.

David Grusch 1:23:57 [laughs] My alma mater's gonna crucify me for getting that Air Force history wrong at the Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio, but-

Joe Rogan 1:24:03 Wow

David Grusch 1:24:03 ... it's pretty cool. They have a mock-up of the, the Little Boy and Fat Man bombs.

Joe Rogan 1:24:08 Mm-hmm.

David Grusch 1:24:08 So you can see how big they were, and you're like, "Holy shit, that was big."

Joe Rogan 1:24:10 One of the things that Lazar said is that one of the objects they were working with was very old.

David Grusch 1:24:17 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:24:17 And he said that they had somehow, that it, it was told to him that it was retrieved from an archeological dig.

David Grusch 1:24:23 [lips smack] I don't know about his specific story and his exposure, but, uh, the archeological thing, that, that is a thing, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:24:31 Are you aware of the labyrinth at, at Hawara in Egypt?

David Grusch 1:24:35 [lips smack] No. What is that?

Joe Rogan 1:24:38 Okay. So-

David Grusch 1:24:39 Is that the one where there's a metallic object that they-

Joe Rogan 1:24:41 Yes

David Grusch 1:24:41 ... they've, they... But, but, uh, what's-his-face won't let people go in it from the abduction?

Joe Rogan 1:24:45 Well-

David Grusch 1:24:45 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:24:45 ... it's, it's complicated.

David Grusch 1:24:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:24:47 It's a little more complicated than won't let them, but there's definitely resistance to it. So these labyrinths, this, this incredible compound that's underground was documented by Herodotus, and he said it was-

David Grusch 1:24:58 Okay

Joe Rogan 1:24:58 ... greater than Giza. He said it was much more spectacular construction.

David Grusch 1:25:02 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:25:03 So now they know from ground-penetrating radar that these, these cavities in the ground, these symmetrical rooms exist.

David Grusch 1:25:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:25:11 They know where they are, and they know why they're flooded. So they are flooded because during the 1960s they built a dam to divert water for agriculture.

David Grusch 1:25:21 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:25:21 And when they did, they changed the water table, and it flooded this labyrinth area.

David Grusch 1:25:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:25:25 And when they used this ground-penent- penetrating radar and, um, I think it's radio tomography and a bunch of the different ways of-

David Grusch 1:25:33 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:25:33 ... one of the things they found was a 40-meter-long metallic object that's in some sort of, uh... Is it, is it in an atrium? Like, it's in some sort of a large room

David Grusch 1:25:47 Yeah, I've heard of ... I've seen a video about this

Joe Rogan 1:25:49 Yeah

David Grusch 1:25:49 So you're, you're recalling some stuff I've seen just casually online

Joe Rogan 1:25:52 Like just-

David Grusch 1:25:53 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:25:53 ... imagine if that's what that is. If-

David Grusch 1:25:57 It's like-

Joe Rogan 1:25:57 ... these people-

David Grusch 1:25:57 It's like the movie Stargate-

Joe Rogan 1:25:58 Right

David Grusch 1:25:58 ... with, with Kurt Russell. [laughs] Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:26:00 If these people-

David Grusch 1:26:00 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:26:00 ... had been worshiping this craft, and so much so that they built this incredible temple-

David Grusch 1:26:06 Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 1:26:06 ... and put it in the center of their temple. It's a 40-meter-long metallic object-

David Grusch 1:26:11 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:26:11 ... and the metal apparently is of unknown origin. Like, they don't know what the metal is.

David Grusch 1:26:17 Interesting.

Joe Rogan 1:26:18 It's not registering as copper. It's not registering as steel or, or, or iron, rather. They don't know what it is.

David Grusch 1:26:24 Interesting. Interesting.

Joe Rogan 1:26:26 Yeah, it's fucking weird.

David Grusch 1:26:29 Yeah, I mean, I'm, I won't be surprised if some ancient civilizations were essentially cargo cults, you know, for these-

Joe Rogan 1:26:34 Right

David Grusch 1:26:35 ... visitors. I mean, that is most likely true in many cases. Not all, and of course, that gets into theological areas that are touchy, but I, I do think that that's probably the case.

Joe Rogan 1:26:45 "The central object is hard to classify."

David Grusch 1:26:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:26:48 "It appears metallic, not stone or wood. I named it Dippy after the giant dipl-

David Grusch 1:26:52 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:26:52 ... diplodocus skeleton in the Hintz- Hincey Hall of London's Natural History Museum. It could be anything. Its shape resembles those Tic Tac hard mints. It might also be an upright disc or even a colossal shen ring, the ancient Egyptian symbol representing the eternal cycle of creation. The big job object alone ... [clears throat] Big object alone," rather, "raises profound questions. How did it get there? Why is it there?" Uh, so show him some of the, uh, r- artistic recreations of what it looked like underneath the ground.

David Grusch 1:27:29 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:27:29 So this is all, you know, like I said-

David Grusch 1:27:31 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:27:31 ... Herodotus wrote about this thousands-

David Grusch 1:27:32 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:27:32 ... of years ago, but now it's documented that these chambers and these pathways actually exist, and there had been people that had studied at least the upper surface levels of it as recently as, like, the 1800s.

David Grusch 1:27:44 Hmm. Interesting.

Joe Rogan 1:27:45 Yeah. But that, you know, through all ... Like, a lot of Egypt, there's water under Giza. There's water under the pyramids.

David Grusch 1:27:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:27:54 There's water under ... You know, a lot of that stuff is flooded. And so this is what it looked like. This is all underground. It's fucking crazy because if this, along with, uh, Filippo Biondi's work, where it shows th- using that same, uh, satellite radio tomography that there's some sort of structure underneath the pyramids that goes over a kilometer into the ground.

David Grusch 1:28:21 Is there easy access, or is it just, like, a government denial, the Antiquities Bureau, whatever they call it in Egypt-

Joe Rogan 1:28:26 Well-

David Grusch 1:28:26 ... blocking it, or?

Joe Rogan 1:28:27 I think there's been some progress in terms of allowing exploration, and I don't know the extent of it, but I know that a lot of people are very hopeful that that progress is, is going to be achieved. Like, they're, they're opening up this research. And look, this would be a giant boom to their tourism industry.

David Grusch 1:28:47 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:28:47 I mean, like, that's what they want. I mean, Egypt probably survives ... I don't know what percentage of their economy in Giza is tourism, but it has to be massive.

David Grusch 1:28:55 Yeah, and you always hear interesting stories. You know, I have an eclectic, uh, group of colleagues, and you hear interesting stories at the Queen's Chamber-

Joe Rogan 1:29:03 Mm-hmm

David Grusch 1:29:03 ... the, the granite pillbox, and people have had interesting experiences in there, too, and, and, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:29:10 Well, the King's Chamber-

David Grusch 1:29:11 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:29:11 ... that sarcophagus-

David Grusch 1:29:12 Yeah. Is that-

Joe Rogan 1:29:13 Uh

David Grusch 1:29:13 ... is that, like, granite box?

Joe Rogan 1:29:14 Yeah, the-

David Grusch 1:29:14 You know what I'm talking about

Joe Rogan 1:29:15 ... big, perfectly cut-

David Grusch 1:29:16 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:29:16 ... granite box that also, uh, I think it mirrors the exact dimensions of the Ark of the Covenant.

David Grusch 1:29:22 Interesting.

Joe Rogan 1:29:23 [laughs]

David Grusch 1:29:23 Inter- that's, that's crazy. But I-

Joe Rogan 1:29:26 That was the big thought

David Grusch 1:29:26 ... I know people who've laid in it 'cause they have to-

Joe Rogan 1:29:28 Yeah

David Grusch 1:29:28 ... kind of pay the guard.

Joe Rogan 1:29:29 Oh, boy.

David Grusch 1:29:30 It's, like, off-hours.

Joe Rogan 1:29:30 And what happens?

David Grusch 1:29:31 And they just have, like, a weird transcendental experience. I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:29:33 Ooh

David Grusch 1:29:33 ... it's kinda woo. Once again, I've never experienced-

Joe Rogan 1:29:36 I'll pay the guards

David Grusch 1:29:36 ... something like that. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:29:37 Let me lie down there, bro. [laughs]

David Grusch 1:29:39 That's a, that's a thing. That's a thing. I'll, I'll let you know who to talk to offline, uh, on the, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:29:42 How much do you think it costs to lay in the box?

David Grusch 1:29:45 Eh, maybe, I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:29:45 A couple hundred bucks?

David Grusch 1:29:46 Egypt. 20 gra- 20 grand, maybe. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:29:48 20 grand. Whoa.

David Grusch 1:29:49 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:29:49 Yeah, 20 grand you could, like-

David Grusch 1:29:51 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:29:51 ... sleep there.

David Grusch 1:29:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:29:53 Yeah. It's, um, it's very strange because the structures themselves are incredibly strange. You know, the structures themselves are so immense and so complex, and they're ... The methods of construction are completely unknown, and just the symmetry and the, the, the, the precision of the engineering is beyond comprehension for people that lived at the very mo- the, the very m- the most recent it could be is 4,500 years ago.

David Grusch 1:30:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:30:18 And a lot of these people think it's far older than that.

David Grusch 1:30:21 And, and we're finding that. I've been watching some of, uh, Graham Hancock's stuff. You just look at these, like, megalithic architecture that's older than you think. The stuff in Turkey-

Joe Rogan 1:30:29 Right. Right

David Grusch 1:30:29 ... and, and, in the United States as well, in Ohio-

Joe Rogan 1:30:32 Mm-hmm

David Grusch 1:30:32 ... and, and, um, Mississippi.

Joe Rogan 1:30:34 Yeah.

David Grusch 1:30:35 And it's like, and they're finding all these pyramid structures using synthetic aperture radar, and I-

Joe Rogan 1:30:39 Mm-hmm

David Grusch 1:30:39 ... so I am casually following it, and it, it does seem like we don't really even know our own history. And I think with all this coming out, there's gonna be a huge rewi- re- re-, uh, writing of a lot of our ancient and modern history. So.

Joe Rogan 1:30:52 Well, that's where it gets really weird. Um, you know, uh, Rep, uh, Paulina Luna was on the podcast.

David Grusch 1:30:58 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:30:58 She was talking to me-

David Grusch 1:30:59 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:30:59 ... about the Book of Enoch.

David Grusch 1:31:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:31:02 And I hadn't read it. She's like, "You have to read it."

David Grusch 1:31:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:31:04 And I've read it twice now, and I'm like, "What in the fuck are they talking about?" Like, the Book of Enoch, which was also found with the Dead Sea Scrolls-

David Grusch 1:31:12 That's right

Joe Rogan 1:31:12 ... in Qumran.

David Grusch 1:31:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:31:13 And it, it refers to the Watchers who came down and, and mated with daughters and created this race of giants, and it's like, "What?"

David Grusch 1:31:21 Yeah, and you think it's like, now when you're, when, when all this comes out, was that actually literal? And you know-

Joe Rogan 1:31:26 Right

David Grusch 1:31:26 ... oh, and of course, the Bible, Council of Nicaea, it was more of a political document before secular government, and, you know, they got together like, "What are all the different books that we can agree-

Joe Rogan 1:31:34 Mm-hmm

David Grusch 1:31:34 ... upon that are good, that are-"

Joe Rogan 1:31:36 Yeah, what gets into the canon.

David Grusch 1:31:37 Yeah. So.

Joe Rogan 1:31:37 And that's the thing about the Book of Enoch is that it was, it was not put in there because it didn't jive with the Torah.

David Grusch 1:31:43 Correct. Yeah, that's right.

Joe Rogan 1:31:44 Yeah, which is like, okay, you fuckers.

David Grusch 1:31:47 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:31:47 Imagine if that was in the Bible. Like, if you go to church and you read about the Watchers.

David Grusch 1:31:52 Well, there's actually a lot of interesting stuff in the Bible. Like obviously... And that's another thing, like of course with, um, you know, I'm Catholic, uh, by growing up, CCD, confirmation, did the whole thing as a kid. And you see a lot of, uh, outspoken exorcists and other people right now saying, "Well, all this, uh, alien stuff is just de- diabolic deception and demons and a- you know, all that kind of stuff."

Joe Rogan 1:32:14 Yeah.

David Grusch 1:32:14 And, and I, and I respect that opinion, and I do think, like, eh, what you perceive as a demon is a certain class of non-human or no- anomalous intelligence and, and that is certainly a thing, but the, the whole ecosystem is not demonic. And but the Bible's interesting 'cause once again, it doesn't discuss about other life elsewhere. Like, it doesn't talk about, uh, bacteria and viruses, that those were unseen. We cohabitated with bacteria and viruses until the invention of the microscope, whatever that was, 1800s or-

Joe Rogan 1:32:45 Right

David Grusch 1:32:45 ... or whatnot. But if you go into, uh, Leviticus and, uh, Deuteronomy, you will notice these like r- cleansing, ritualistic stuff also, like, hey, you can't have your toilet in your living area and all that. And if you look in those books of the Bible, wait, that's like modern sanitization guidance. So it's funny that like the Bible has encoded within its, um, kind of like best practices before man would even understand what a, you know, viruses and bacteria are. And I just find that that's very interesting based on when it was written.

Joe Rogan 1:33:17 Right.

David Grusch 1:33:17 And it does show that there was some sort of higher intelligence kind of influencing the authorship. I just, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:33:22 Either that or int- uh, the civilization that was writing the Bible was a recreation of civilization that had been destroyed in the cataclysm.

David Grusch 1:33:31 Yeah. I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:33:31 That, uh, I think that it-

David Grusch 1:33:33 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:33:33 ... it, especially when you look at the pyramids and you look at some of these other ancient structures like Lebanon, Baalbek, they, they, they don't make sense. And it seems to me that there was probably something super sophisticated a long time ago, and it got wiped out. And then-

David Grusch 1:33:47 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:33:47 ... what we get from these ancient texts is probably oral tradition passed on through hundreds if not thousands of years, and then people writing things down and people remembering these stories. I think one of the weirdest, uh, books of the Bible is the Book of Ezekiel.

David Grusch 1:34:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:34:05 'Cause the Book of Ezekiel is one all the UFO people turn to.

David Grusch 1:34:08 Yeah, of course. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:34:08 Because there's that, the, the, "A great cloud with brightness around it and fire flashing forth continually, and in the midst of the fire, as it were gleaming metal. And from the midst of the craft came the likeness of four living creatures."

David Grusch 1:34:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:34:22 Like, what?

David Grusch 1:34:23 Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:34:23 It's, "The creatures darted to and fro like a flash of lightning." What?

David Grusch 1:34:28 Exactly. In the, the Manna machine, the cloud-

Joe Rogan 1:34:30 Yeah

David Grusch 1:34:31 ... that followed the Israels.

Joe Rogan 1:34:32 Wheel within a wheel.

David Grusch 1:34:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:34:33 There's, there's weird shit in the Book of Ezekiel.

David Grusch 1:34:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:34:36 Like, that is a very, very weird story. Like, what are they describing?

David Grusch 1:34:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:34:41 It sounds like a, a spaceship. It sounds like a ship comes down from the sky with immense power, frightens everyone, freaks everyone out, and these entities are inside the craft.

David Grusch 1:34:51 Yeah. And I think a lot of it, once again, they're interpreting it based on their vernacular at the time-

Joe Rogan 1:34:57 Right

David Grusch 1:34:57 ... their understanding. And I, I remember I was at, uh, two years ago, I was at Capitol Reef National Park in Utah, and there's petroglyphs there, and some of them kind of look like aliens.

Joe Rogan 1:35:06 100%.

David Grusch 1:35:06 And, and you're like, "Well, is that literally what they're seeing?" I, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:35:10 Right

David Grusch 1:35:11 ... perhaps. And, and I don't know the answer to that. That's not my expertise. But I feel like a lot of the stuff in ancient tradition is literally what they saw. It's not necessarily allegory or fable. Some of it may be for, for teaching lessons, but I have a feeling a lot of it was actually literal.

Joe Rogan 1:35:26 I have a feeling a lot of it was literal as well-

David Grusch 1:35:28 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:35:28 ... because most people, first of all, A, couldn't read, and B, couldn't write.

David Grusch 1:35:34 Yeah, that's right.

Joe Rogan 1:35:35 And so writing fiction seems like a fruitless pursuit. It seems like writing history so that you can remember what happened, at least a version of it that's palatable to people.

David Grusch 1:35:45 Like ancient Sumer and the Anunnaki-

Joe Rogan 1:35:47 Mm-hmm

David Grusch 1:35:47 ... and all that, and it's like, well, why did they make up th- just for fun?

Joe Rogan 1:35:50 Right.

David Grusch 1:35:50 You know? Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:35:51 They all had kooky stories about being visited. And, you know, when you're telling me about these things that look like Greek gods-

David Grusch 1:35:59 That's how I described it.

Joe Rogan 1:36:01 Yeah.

David Grusch 1:36:01 And that's how clearly what, what General McCasland was hinting to Tom DeLonge. And once again, I got, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:36:06 Well, doesn't it make sense that-

David Grusch 1:36:07 ... put behind the veil

Joe Rogan 1:36:08 ... the Greek gods did exist? Like, I mean, not, not d- they did exist literally, but that like, when they talked about the Greek gods, they talked about them in this manner.

David Grusch 1:36:17 Just-

Joe Rogan 1:36:17 Looking like that, and then you actually find a craft with these things that look like us.

David Grusch 1:36:22 Which is like the conquistadors were treated like that in the 1500s-

Joe Rogan 1:36:25 Right

David Grusch 1:36:25 ... right?

Joe Rogan 1:36:26 Yeah. Right.

David Grusch 1:36:27 Literally white, Caucasian-

Joe Rogan 1:36:29 Mm

David Grusch 1:36:30 ... gods.

Joe Rogan 1:36:30 Bearded. Yeah.

David Grusch 1:36:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:36:32 With horses.

David Grusch 1:36:33 So.

Joe Rogan 1:36:33 They, they rode horses.

David Grusch 1:36:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:36:34 They couldn't figure out what the fuck was going on with that.

David Grusch 1:36:36 Yeah, and I'm glad we talked about it. I mean, I think that is probably the most uncomfortable stuff for me to talk about, but it's also something that the public needs to wrap their mind around and understand that this is a thing, and kind of start processing that kind of reality.

Joe Rogan 1:36:50 Well, and then-

David Grusch 1:36:50 As much as it's coming from me, but I mean, I- the federal government, you know, if Trump really is serious and Stephen Miller, you know, um, does his thing with this, I think all this, all this will come out in a hopefully responsible way. I would hope so.

Joe Rogan 1:37:04 So they're, they have a schedule that's based on the concept that people need to have this information trickle slowly so that they can adjust.

David Grusch 1:37:13 There was suggestions in the past if the president did something. Um, I am not aware at this point, uh, what the, what the plan is in that regard right now, though, so.

Joe Rogan 1:37:25 But there is some sort of an idea that this should be trickled out.

David Grusch 1:37:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:37:30 That this shouldn't be like, boom, here it is. Let's lay it out.

David Grusch 1:37:34 Yeah, the, the president truly wants it out, and obviously Bob Bigelow met with the president as well on February 26th before he made an announcement. And I mean, he told the president, "Hey, you need to admit that there's NHI, and we've, you know, recovered stuff-

Joe Rogan 1:37:47 Yeah

David Grusch 1:37:47 ... and, and we're looking at it," in a semi-formal announcement to start anesthetizing the public. And you can find that interview online that Bob did with, I think it was with George Knapp on a-

Joe Rogan 1:37:56 Mm-hmm

David Grusch 1:37:56 ... on a podcast. So it, it's not- Just myself advocating for this. There's other people. I don't even know Bob Bigelow and, you know, I- he did us a solid by pushing the president, uh, to help make that decision. I mean, there, there's a lot of things that went on behind the scenes and, you know, I work in mysterious ways, and I, I won't divulge certain relationships and certain rooms I've been in. But, [smacks lips] uh, it took a village and, uh, you know, I'm proud that, you know, the time I spent with Representative Burlison was very fruitful. We did a lot of stuff behind the scenes, and I think Burlison's gonna go down as a very courageous man, and it's ... And I say that not just 'cause he was my boss. I mean, he was probably the most forward-leaning member of Congress on this issue. I mean, Lu- uh, Representative Luna did a great job, you know, uh, Tim Burchett and, and others. But, you know, he actively was sending letters out. We made some of them public. That's how we got that Lincoln Labs formerly classified 1952 film outs in the last tranche that just came out. And also, um, we've sent interrogatories, which are legal questions and that, you know, that require an affidavit format response, uh, to different organizations. And, and it's public that we sent one, uh, this summer to the, the MITRE Corporation, which is a federally funded research and development center headquartered in, uh, Northern Virginia. So, uh, they clearly have a duty to respond. Their corporate counsel's working on it. Uh, and obviously the, you know, I left, but the, hopefully Burlison's team is able to, um, push for a, a, a response in conjunction with whatever, uh, Stephen Miller and the Pursuit Team is working on, too, 'cause they're probably gonna wanna coordinate all that, so.

Joe Rogan 1:39:32 So this guy that you communicated with that said he encountered, um, living reptilians and dead grays-

David Grusch 1:39:39 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:39:40 ... did they have communication with these reptilians?

David Grusch 1:39:44 Mm, I don't recall that. No, I don't think so.

Joe Rogan 1:39:47 So what-

David Grusch 1:39:48 Now, some people do get that kind of like-

Joe Rogan 1:39:50 Yes

David Grusch 1:39:50 ... feeling and, and I've talked about that. I- it was on Dr. Phil, actually. Uh, there is some sort of consciousness communication, call it telepathy. Hell if I know how it works. But it is a thing, and I know sober, high-ranking people I've served a decade and a half with in the government that were on these retrievals that on occasion that would happen, or they would have like a feeling come over them.

Joe Rogan 1:40:14 Mm.

David Grusch 1:40:14 It's almost like, I wonder, this is like my own hypothesis, and I, I would laugh if this is true, but the- sometimes it's like a positive feeling, like, um, uh, of comfort. I wonder if that's almost like a countermeasure on the, on the craft to prevent certain aggression or whatever. It's almost like how air force jets have countermeasures on them, flare, chaff, you know, electronic countermeasures as well, like jammers.

Joe Rogan 1:40:40 Uh-huh.

David Grusch 1:40:40 And I wonder if some of that is psychotronic technology. Um, that's just my hypothesis. I'm, I, I don't have any secret knowledge, but I-

Joe Rogan 1:40:48 Why did you come to that conclusion?

David Grusch 1:40:49 Just because, like, um, [smacks lips] it seems interesting. It's like an anesthetization technique to reduce, like, the occupant's risk of danger maybe, and a- it's like-

Joe Rogan 1:41:02 How so?

David Grusch 1:41:02 ... a countermeasure. Oh, well, like if you f- if you feel at peace, you're not gonna, like, roll up and, you know, do something bad to them.

Joe Rogan 1:41:07 And shoot people.

David Grusch 1:41:08 Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:41:08 And shoot aliens.

David Grusch 1:41:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:41:09 Right. So if you found them-

David Grusch 1:41:11 I just feel like that that's a-

Joe Rogan 1:41:11 ... and they were vulnerable, they could placate you and calm you down with telepathy.

David Grusch 1:41:15 It's like a countermeasure system. I have a feeling-

Joe Rogan 1:41:16 Why would you think it's that-

David Grusch 1:41:17 I don't know

Joe Rogan 1:41:18 ... instead of just communication?

David Grusch 1:41:19 Yeah. Oh, it could be. I'm just saying my other hypothesis, in absent- 'cause sometimes they'll get that feeling absent some sort of occupant.

Joe Rogan 1:41:27 Now-

David Grusch 1:41:27 So that's why

Joe Rogan 1:41:28 ... is there, um, a particular type of non-human intelligence that has this telepathic capability, or is it amongst all of them?

David Grusch 1:41:38 I do not know the holistic answer to that question. I do not know. The, the, the grays-

Joe Rogan 1:41:44 Right

David Grusch 1:41:44 ... do, for example, but I don't know-

Joe Rogan 1:41:46 The grays do?

David Grusch 1:41:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:41:47 Has that been reported?

David Grusch 1:41:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:41:48 But I know the-

David Grusch 1:41:49 But I don't-

Joe Rogan 1:41:49 ... tall whites-

David Grusch 1:41:50 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:41:50 ... have been reported that, that they can communicate telepathically.

David Grusch 1:41:54 Oh, certainly there's-

Joe Rogan 1:41:55 Or these weird Nor- the Nordics.

David Grusch 1:41:56 Yeah. There's been-

Joe Rogan 1:41:57 Yeah

David Grusch 1:41:57 ... accounts out there in, um, [smacks lips] the public vernacular on that potentially. But unfortunately, that's at the limit of my personal knowledge that I feel confident, you know, saying-

Joe Rogan 1:42:07 Uh-huh

David Grusch 1:42:08 ... something publicly-

Joe Rogan 1:42:08 Right

David Grusch 1:42:09 ... about yet, so.

Joe Rogan 1:42:10 What, uh, what other kinds of, uh, beings have been reported?

David Grusch 1:42:14 [smacks lips] Um, so for the gray types, there are, are multiple sizes.

Joe Rogan 1:42:20 There's a big, tall, thin one, right?

David Grusch 1:42:21 Yeah. There's taller ones.

Joe Rogan 1:42:22 There's little tiny ones.

David Grusch 1:42:23 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:42:24 And they think-

David Grusch 1:42:24 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:42:24 ... the, a lot of people think that the tiny ones might be some sort of, uh, like, a, an android or-

David Grusch 1:42:31 Yeah. That's certainly a hypothesis that has also been discussed, you know, within the program as well. So there's a v- a variety. There's like three or four different subtypes, and they all-

Joe Rogan 1:42:41 Mm-hmm

David Grusch 1:42:42 ... kind of have various statures, different effect.

Joe Rogan 1:42:45 Right. The, the tall-

David Grusch 1:42:45 You know, their faces are a little different. So, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:42:46 ... the tall ones seem to be running the show, and the little ones seem-

David Grusch 1:42:49 And I've, I've heard that behind the scenes as well.

Joe Rogan 1:42:52 Yeah.

David Grusch 1:42:52 And I don't know what to make of that. Once again, I don't have, like, um, holistic knowledge on kind of the, that species, so.

Joe Rogan 1:42:58 Well, it kind of makes sense that you would, if you develop some sort of a non-biological life form that worked for you. Like say if there's a bunch of menial tasks, like think about, like, all the things that people have to do in this world-

David Grusch 1:43:11 Well, we are-

Joe Rogan 1:43:11 ... that we don't-

David Grusch 1:43:12 ... silicon-based NHI, AKA artificial intelligence. We're basically doing that already, so.

Joe Rogan 1:43:16 Right.

David Grusch 1:43:17 Which is scary.

Joe Rogan 1:43:18 Yeah.

David Grusch 1:43:19 And I, I postulate that artificial super intelligence, if it's allowed to have certain data and it's able to collect data, I mean, to include, uh, genomic data, almost like, uh, Larry Ellison's doing the, what, the Stargate, uh, AI medical thing right now with the Trump administration. I bet artificial super intelligence, uh, could disclose before the federal government if we're not careful, and that's why that I feel like time's of the essence. I think AI could possibly find evidence that we're not alone and curate that. Um, like it's been solving other crazy mathematical problems lately. You know, OpenAI's been doing that. And, and that's another danger besides our adversary, um, accelerating this by taking the upper hand on this to, to look like a more m- messianic truth bearer. You could have big tech and AI inadvertently discovering, uh, US classified technology that we figured out, which is a national security issue near and dear to my heart, but also their presence just through different data sets.

Joe Rogan 1:44:17 So they would have definitive proof? That how would AI have access to definitive proof unless it hacked into-

David Grusch 1:44:22 Me-

Joe Rogan 1:44:22 ... every government resource?

David Grusch 1:44:24 Well, medical records.

Joe Rogan 1:44:25 Right.

David Grusch 1:44:25 Optical sensing systems, you know, that kind of stuff. Um, certainly I'm not aware of some sort of imminent thing, but I think there is a, a possibility that artificial super intelligence, if it, you know, comes online in the next months to years, uh, could figure it all out. 'Cause they might see-

Joe Rogan 1:44:41 Right

David Grusch 1:44:41 ... gaps in the historical record that don't make any sense. They detect denial and deception operations. They're like, "Wait a minute, that story about that event in history is not right. Let me do some digging." And then they, they figure out, oh, that was cover for a crash retrieval. That event didn't actually happen the way it does. And I-

Joe Rogan 1:44:56 Wow

David Grusch 1:44:56 ... I can think of some things that, you know, that could possibly happen, so.

Joe Rogan 1:44:59 Okay, so you have these Nordic Greek god-looking things. You have these reptilian ones. Are there more than one type of reptilian one?

David Grusch 1:45:07 Yeah. There seems, there seems to be. And I don't know why there's different subtypes. It's-

Joe Rogan 1:45:11 See if anybody has-

David Grusch 1:45:12 Yeah. Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:45:12 ... does anybody have any artistic renditions of what they saw, the reptilians?

Speaker 1:45:17 Nothing. I wasn't getting... I was only getting, like, weird fan art of, you know-

David Grusch 1:45:20 Yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 1:45:20 ... crazy reptile fighter things.

David Grusch 1:45:22 Yeah. Ooh.

Speaker 1:45:22 Nothing of like a description of just-

Joe Rogan 1:45:24 Let me see what that looks like. It was fan art

Speaker 1:45:25 ... it was nonsense. It was just-

Joe Rogan 1:45:26 I like nonsense.

Speaker 1:45:27 All right.

David Grusch 1:45:27 See some fan art.

Joe Rogan 1:45:28 [laughs]

Speaker 1:45:30 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:45:30 Now, um-

David Grusch 1:45:30 That'll be splashed on young kids' walls as a kid after post-disclosure. You're gonna have, uh, NHI fan art all over the place.

Joe Rogan 1:45:37 Yeah.

David Grusch 1:45:37 Instead of a Lamborghini Countach on the wall, right? So.

Joe Rogan 1:45:39 Right. But, well, Betty and Barney Hill, of course, were, um, the fir-

David Grusch 1:45:43 Yeah, that's a weird one.

Joe Rogan 1:45:45 Yeah.

David Grusch 1:45:45 And also, Dr. Karla Turner did a lot of work in the '90s.

Speaker 1:45:49 I mean, this wasn't from a description on Reddit, which not mean that's-

Joe Rogan 1:45:53 Ooh.

David Grusch 1:45:53 Interesting.

Joe Rogan 1:45:53 He's jacked.

David Grusch 1:45:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:45:55 He's got a tail.

David Grusch 1:45:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:45:56 He's got a hole for a tail in his suit.

Speaker 1:45:58 So it's like he's in scrubs.

David Grusch 1:45:58 Yeah. Once again, I've never seen one, so I, I can't, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:46:01 [laughs] He's wearing scrubs

David Grusch 1:46:02 ... verify the sketch.

Speaker 1:46:03 There's only one. That's some weird 3D version.

David Grusch 1:46:06 Oh, is that the, uh-

Speaker 1:46:07 But I don't know what these are. I just-

David Grusch 1:46:08 ... Peruvian, um things?

Joe Rogan 1:46:09 Oh, the Peruvian ones are weird.

Speaker 1:46:10 No idea. I was just-

David Grusch 1:46:11 That's another open-ended thing that, um-

Joe Rogan 1:46:14 Some of the Peruvian ones-

David Grusch 1:46:14 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:46:14 ... seem like total horseshit.

David Grusch 1:46:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:46:16 And other ones, you're like, "What the hell is that?"

Speaker 1:46:18 These are just-

Joe Rogan 1:46:18 And how is it so old if it's that good of a recreation? If it's-

Speaker 1:46:22 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:46:22 ... if it's art, it's some of the greatest art I've ever seen. 'Cause-

David Grusch 1:46:25 And, and the-

Joe Rogan 1:46:26 ... they have the bones, the tendons

David Grusch 1:46:27 ... all the tendons are correct.

Joe Rogan 1:46:28 Yeah, but then the-

David Grusch 1:46:29 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:46:29 ... bones of the foot are incorrect.

David Grusch 1:46:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:46:30 And some, some people think that it was actually put together and made, but then for what purpose? Like, what, what is the purpose of them?

David Grusch 1:46:36 Because, like, grave robbers found it, so the-

Joe Rogan 1:46:38 Mm-hmm

David Grusch 1:46:38 ... provenance is kind of sketchy, but they look possibly legit.

Joe Rogan 1:46:43 Yeah.

David Grusch 1:46:43 'Cause, 'cause of the MRIs and the CT scans.

Joe Rogan 1:46:45 Uh-huh.

David Grusch 1:46:45 It's like, well, there's joints and it's connected, and if they glued it together, there's no obvious places where they kludged it together. With the, I think it was the bigger ones.

Joe Rogan 1:46:53 Monstorot. Pull-

David Grusch 1:46:54 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:46:54 ... pull the images up of Monstorot. Monstorot's the weird one. But again, I've heard people who are-

David Grusch 1:46:59 Is that the one that's pregnant? No.

Joe Rogan 1:47:00 There is one that's supposedly pregnant.

David Grusch 1:47:02 Supposedly, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:47:03 Um, but one of the weird things is that, uh, uh, people that understand anatomy have looked at the bones of the foot and say, "No, this is like, this is not how it would work. They're pieced together. This is fake." But how do you know if you're talking about something that's not a human? Like, what-

David Grusch 1:47:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:47:18 I don't understand that. It's outside of my wheelhouse.

David Grusch 1:47:21 Exactly. And once again-

Joe Rogan 1:47:22 But the, but the images-

David Grusch 1:47:23 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:47:23 ... themselves are fucking strange as shit, man.

David Grusch 1:47:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:47:26 Like, they're really weird.

David Grusch 1:47:28 They just need genetic testing, and I believe that's going on, um.

Joe Rogan 1:47:32 Yeah, I believe that's going on too, but-

David Grusch 1:47:34 Yeah. I don't know

Joe Rogan 1:47:34 ... I, I don't know who to fucking believe. The other thing that's really weird about Peru is not only do they have these things, these weird-looking sort of, uh, mummy creatures-

David Grusch 1:47:46 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:47:46 ... that look like something non-human, but they also have this ancient artwork tradition of these three-fingered, three-toed creatures-

David Grusch 1:47:54 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Joe Rogan 1:47:54 ... that, like, these are, like, tapestries and, and paintings that are really fucking old-

David Grusch 1:47:59 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:47:59 ... that have these things in them. Yeah.

David Grusch 1:48:03 Is that the Nazca Lines or-

Joe Rogan 1:48:04 Yeah, the Nazca Lines.

Speaker 1:48:05 These are, uh, just actually AI uncovered more of them.

Joe Rogan 1:48:07 Yeah.

Speaker 1:48:09 I was trying to find that big one, but-

David Grusch 1:48:10 Oh, really? Was that recently?

Joe Rogan 1:48:11 Yeah.

Speaker 1:48:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:48:12 303 previously unseen Nazca Lines in Peru. Fucking all weird. Really weird stuff. The Peruvian stuff is really strange. The, the elongated skulls in Peru are really weird.

David Grusch 1:48:25 Yeah, like, whatever started the head binding thing. Like, I wonder if that's to emulate-

Joe Rogan 1:48:29 Yes. Well, that's what they think

David Grusch 1:48:31 ... some of these visitors.

Joe Rogan 1:48:31 Well, see-

David Grusch 1:48:31 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:48:31 ... the thing about the skulls are-

David Grusch 1:48:32 I don't know the answer to that, so.

Joe Rogan 1:48:34 You, you've seen some of the weirder skulls?

David Grusch 1:48:37 Some of them. Yeah. They're, like, really, really, like, elongated.

Joe Rogan 1:48:40 They don't have that sagittal line that we have.

David Grusch 1:48:43 Oh, interesting.

Joe Rogan 1:48:43 That, that line in the skull. And their, their brain capacity is far larger than us. 20 to 30% larger. So it's not just that it was, like, a manipulated skull. Like, this seems to be a completely different type of person.

David Grusch 1:48:55 That's right. That's right. Like, is it a missing link or, or something in-

Joe Rogan 1:48:58 Yeah. Show him some of the-

David Grusch 1:48:59 ... Homo sapien elements. Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:48:59 ... weirder skulls that they found. Some of the weirder elongated skulls. Like, you just fucking imagine running into this person. Like, if you met this person. And someone with a 30% larger brain capacity, like, what does that mean? Like, what... Could... Are, are these people able to communicate telepathically? Do they have a far higher level of intelligence than-

David Grusch 1:49:19 Yeah, if their synaptic density's the same as humans or better, like, I'm sure-

Joe Rogan 1:49:22 Right

David Grusch 1:49:22 ... crazy intelligence.

Joe Rogan 1:49:23 Right.

David Grusch 1:49:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:49:24 30% is nuts.

David Grusch 1:49:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:49:25 That's... Uh, and the size of their skull is fucking crazy.

David Grusch 1:49:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:49:30 And some of them are, like, tiny bodies, but enormous skulls.

David Grusch 1:49:34 Oh, that's right. I think I know what pictures you're talking about.

Joe Rogan 1:49:36 Yeah.

David Grusch 1:49:36 That's pretty weird. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:49:37 It's weird stuff.

David Grusch 1:49:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:49:38 And then, um, one of my friends recently went down to Peru to see these things, and he said the skulls are missing now. And that like-

David Grusch 1:49:44 Really?

Joe Rogan 1:49:44 Yeah. There's apparently that a real... There... So here's some of them. Like, look at that one on the left. Like, what in the hell, man? Imagine if you met that guy. Like, look, he doesn't have that same sagittal line that we have.

David Grusch 1:49:57 And have they done assessments of, like, how long you'd have to do head binding or-

Joe Rogan 1:50:00 It's not head binding

David Grusch 1:50:01 ... some sort of-

Joe Rogan 1:50:02 So this is-

David Grusch 1:50:02 ... some sort of disease or I, I don't know

Joe Rogan 1:50:03 Yeah, it could be an anomaly. It could be some sort of a genetic thing. But, like, look at what the dude would look like-

David Grusch 1:50:09 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:50:09 ... down there below. Like, [laughs] what the fuck? Imagine meeting that guy and he's talking to you telepathically. Boom, mo, mo, mo.

David Grusch 1:50:17 [laughs] Hey, you never know.

Joe Rogan 1:50:18 Yeah.

David Grusch 1:50:18 That might be a thing, uh, sooner than you think. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:50:21 I, I mean, that-

David Grusch 1:50:21 Just saying

Joe Rogan 1:50:22 ... image right there, that skull, that is a real elongated skull that they found in Peru. That is not just the product of head binding. There's no way. It's too big. Like, head binding doesn't increase the capacity, it just flattens out the shape. That's a weird fucking head, man.

David Grusch 1:50:38 Oh, that makes sense. I know what you're talking about.

Joe Rogan 1:50:40 Yeah.

David Grusch 1:50:40 Yeah, unless it's some sort of disease, and I'm not an expert, that's really-

Joe Rogan 1:50:43 It certainly could be

David Grusch 1:50:44 ... interesting. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:50:44 It could be some sort of a genetic anomaly, some sort of a mutation.

David Grusch 1:50:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:50:49 Who knows? And a, a trait that was passed on. Like, there's those people that live in Africa that have, like, uh, ostrich feet. Have you seen that?

David Grusch 1:50:57 No.

Joe Rogan 1:50:57 There's-

David Grusch 1:50:58 I'm learning a lot [laughs] with this stuff. Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:50:59 ... yeah, there's this weird, uh, group of people in Africa that have this very specific trait where they do not have, uh, five toes, uh-

David Grusch 1:51:08 Hmm

Joe Rogan 1:51:08 ... on each foot. Instead, they have these long, strange appendages that almost looks like-

David Grusch 1:51:14 Hmm

Joe Rogan 1:51:14 ... like four or five toes smashed together, but much longer.

David Grusch 1:51:19 Interesting.

Joe Rogan 1:51:19 And they call them, like... I think they call them ostrich feet. It's very weird, but, like, it's in this-

David Grusch 1:51:25 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:51:25 ... one tribe, and many people in this tribe have it. It-

David Grusch 1:51:27 Could be very rampant. Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:51:28 Yeah. Show, show some images of that.

David Grusch 1:51:30 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:51:30 It's fucking-

David Grusch 1:51:31 Yeah, let's see this

Joe Rogan 1:51:32 ... really strange.

David Grusch 1:51:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:51:33 So you, you see that and you go, "Okay, well, that clearly is a genetic anomaly. Maybe the head thing is a genetic anomaly as well."

David Grusch 1:51:40 Talking about that, right?

Joe Rogan 1:51:40 Yes.

David Grusch 1:51:41 Yeah, that's right.

Joe Rogan 1:51:41 Like, look at that.

David Grusch 1:51:43 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:51:43 Ostrich footed people of Zimbabwe.

David Grusch 1:51:46 Interesting.

Joe Rogan 1:51:47 Yeah. Fucking strange, man. So look at the people down there. Look what they look like. Scroll... Yeah. How weird is that, man?

David Grusch 1:51:54 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:51:54 So they have two, uh, big, long things that are way longer than a toe, and they splay out, and that's what their toes are. And it's like this tribe, multiple people in this tribe have it.

David Grusch 1:52:08 I wonder if they've sequenced the genome of the... Let's see if there's some sort of, uh, genetic abnormality.

Joe Rogan 1:52:14 Well, there certainly is.

David Grusch 1:52:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:52:15 Right? 'Cause it seems like... Are their fingers normal?

David Grusch 1:52:18 'Cause it's passed down.

Joe Rogan 1:52:20 Yeah. No. No.

David Grusch 1:52:24 No.

Joe Rogan 1:52:24 So they've got the issue- Well, unless they're missing ... with their hands as well. Unless they're missing. Can't tell. Yeah. No, it seems like that it's-

David Grusch 1:52:29 Yeah, it's hard to tell

Joe Rogan 1:52:29 ... with their hands as well.

David Grusch 1:52:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:52:31 Yes. Look at her left hand.

David Grusch 1:52:33 It's almost like an elephantitis kind of looking thing.

Joe Rogan 1:52:35 Very fucking weird.

David Grusch 1:52:36 Yeah, it's, it's interesting.

Joe Rogan 1:52:36 Whatever it is. So you could imagine if that exists-

David Grusch 1:52:39 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:52:39 ... and exists with multiple people in this tribe, that a large head anomaly could-

David Grusch 1:52:44 Mm

Joe Rogan 1:52:44 ... exist as well. So, so you have the tall grays, the small grays. You have more than one version of reptilian.

David Grusch 1:52:53 S- From what I understand, yes. And I'm not an expert on that. I'll-

Joe Rogan 1:52:56 What have you heard, though?

David Grusch 1:52:56 ... I'll defer. Um, some look a little more humanoid, um, from what I understand. Once again, I'm hitting, like, the limit of my, you know, high confidence knowledge. So [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:53:07 More humanoid, but still reptilian.

David Grusch 1:53:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:53:09 Yeah. Okay.

David Grusch 1:53:10 And tall.

Joe Rogan 1:53:11 And tall.

David Grusch 1:53:11 Like s- seven foot plus.

Joe Rogan 1:53:13 Big, giant reptiles-

David Grusch 1:53:14 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:53:14 ... around the world.

David Grusch 1:53:15 Which I thought was so funny, 'cause, you know, that's, like, the schizo thing you hear out, like, in public. You know, the-

Joe Rogan 1:53:19 Mm-hmm

David Grusch 1:53:19 ... the big, the big rep- reptiles, lizards, whatever.

Joe Rogan 1:53:21 Yeah.

David Grusch 1:53:22 Turns out, uh, that's kind of a thing, and I just... It's just strange. But once again, I, I personally have not seen any of that.

Joe Rogan 1:53:29 That is one-

David Grusch 1:53:29 Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan 1:53:30 ... of the weirder theories of ancient civilizations as well, that during the time of the dinosaurs, like, i- let's-

David Grusch 1:53:38 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:53:38 ... let's imagine that human beings weren't the first intelligent creature. Let's imagine-

David Grusch 1:53:42 Sure

Joe Rogan 1:53:42 ... that there was an intelligent reptile, and that this intelligent reptile had formulated a very complex society 100 million years ago. Like, why not? Like, if, if dinosaurs existed 100 million years ago, why not some sort of a reptilian type creature? Just, we have a tiny amount of fossils just from the amount of dinosaurs that existed.

David Grusch 1:54:01 That's right. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:54:02 And if these things had some sort of sophisticated disposal of bodies, if they had burning rituals, or if, you know, if they never let their bodies just lay around and become fossils, we would never find them.

David Grusch 1:54:14 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:54:15 What is that called? Uh, not saurian. It's like, there's a, there's a, th- there's a theory about that that people have.

David Grusch 1:54:21 I'm not sure.

Joe Rogan 1:54:22 Some wacky-

David Grusch 1:54:23 It's outside my expertise. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 1:54:23 It's a wacky theory-

David Grusch 1:54:24 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:54:24 ... because there's no evidence at all. It's just like, what if, you know, there was-

David Grusch 1:54:28 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:54:28 ... an intelligent race of reptiles that existed alongside dinosaurs?

David Grusch 1:54:32 Yeah. That might be a thing. And it- that's also, uh... Once again, going back to bioengineered.

Joe Rogan 1:54:40 Right.

David Grusch 1:54:40 Is it sourced from Earth genomic stockpile?

Joe Rogan 1:54:43 Did they visit us from somewhere else and-

David Grusch 1:54:44 I d- I don't currently know the answer to that

Joe Rogan 1:54:47 ... colonize this planet? Yeah.

David Grusch 1:54:48 I mean, they clearly have advanced technology, but I don't understand the origin. I-

Joe Rogan 1:54:52 But you're convinced-

David Grusch 1:54:53 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:54:53 ... that this is a actual phenomenon, that this isn't just a cover-up-

David Grusch 1:54:57 Yeah

Joe Rogan 1:54:57 ... for some top secret-

David Grusch 1:55:00 No

Joe Rogan 1:55:00 ... Black Ops programs.

David Grusch 1:55:02 No. I would know, 'cause I was in the position to know all that kind of stuff. Unlike Elon Musk, I actually had all those clearances. And [laughs] um, we can talk about Elon if you want, but interesting guy. But the, uh, the phenomenon is so old, we've been seeing the same objects for so long, it rules out any kind of, you know, modern Cold War technology. Now, have there been oops where people have seen our stuff? Yes. I won't get into that, 'cause that is a national security thing, and I'm... You know, that's... I'm very deferential to that. But, uh, there's clearly a genuine presence. The phenomenon's old. Um, if you listen to the 1952, uh, recording that Representative Burlson got declassified from, uh, MIT Lincoln Labs, you'll hear, uh, Edward Ruppelt, who eventually defected from Blue Book 'cause he realized it was a cover-up, um, in, in the '50s. But he talked, he was talking to the Beacon Hill study team at Lincoln Labs saying, "Hey, the, the Air Force has ruled out mass hysteria. We're seeing shit during, you know, nuclear sites- Tests. Oh, by the way, in the White Sands, Holloman Air Force Base area, we, we caught multiple objects traveling an estimated 3,500 miles an hour. We can't rule out maybe some sort of meteor shower, but we're seeing a lot of weird shit moving at velocities that we don't know. And in the recording it talks about, like, we've ruled out, you know, foreign programs, et cetera. And this is an internal recorded briefing between Lincoln Lab scientists and the Air Force that just got released in the recent tranche. And so that rules out a lot of, um, uh, human activity. And so the, the thought experiment or the, the kind of the path I lead people is, like, okay, are UAP real? Well, of course, people who have seen it will be, you know, more inclined to saying yes. But if you look at the, the whole tapestry of information to include orbs that are costing the federal government as we speak, and there's a whole task force looking at it right now between ODNI and Department of War, et cetera. And, um, okay, so it's real. They're interacting with man. So you don't think the federal government at one point tried to acquire some empirical evidence? Of course they did.

Joe Rogan 1:57:16 Of course they did.

David Grusch 1:57:17 They were, they recovered shit.

Joe Rogan 1:57:18 But it is-

David Grusch 1:57:19 And it... Yeah. So-

Joe Rogan 1:57:20 S-

David Grusch 1:57:20 It's like once you cross that Rubicon, you're like, "Well, that makes sense why crash retrievals could be a thing." You think the government just passively studied it? Oh, we did a secret Blue Book, and we were just, like, you know, imaging stuff. No, m- no, baby, we're doing foreign material exploitation and acquisition. We're gonna go get some of this shit when we get a chance when, you know, there's a mission failure or one crashes or lands for whatever other reason. So, uh, that's... Once you accept that, it's like a whole new paradigm in your mind, like holy shit. And then all this crazy stuff we're talking about with Nordics and the beings, it's... It is wild, but it's true. Like, of course, if you're recovering an artifact, you're gonna get biological shit, too. And, and that's, that's, I think, the, the place where the, the public's, like, has a harder, uh, cognitive leap where it's just so hard to conceptualize something you don't see day to day that's a, a living thing. It's, like, even more wild than finding some new, uh, animal in the Congo or some deep sea creature in the bottom of the ocean. Like, we don't even know what's, you know, 70% of the ocean or something like that hasn't even been mapped, something like that. I don't know the exact number.

Joe Rogan 1:58:25 It's more than that.

David Grusch 1:58:25 It might be more-

Joe Rogan 1:58:26 Yeah

David Grusch 1:58:26 ... than that. And, you know, it, it's just shocking because it's just, it's, it's... But it's familiar at the same time. You know, a lot of it's bipedal and has the bilateral symmetry, and it's just like, what does this mean? Like, they're so similar. Are they organic life from another planet? Like, how would it evolve in such a similar way? Where, wh- are these like von Neumann probes that are sent with occupants that are bioengineered 'cause they know on this M-class planet there's these Homo sapiens sapien creatures, they look like this, this and that, and they tweak a couple things, et- cetera. So it's... I don't know all the answers to that, and I wish I did 'cause I'm sure the public, you know, has a, you know, a big desire to know that. But I think eventually, uh, through the president's courageous actions, it'll, it'll come out. So, and so, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:59:11 So the intent of Project Blue Book was clearly to obfuscate and-

David Grusch 1:59:16 Yes. And you don't have to take my word for it. I talk about a formerly classified Australian joint intelligence organization document that was classified secret in 1971, written by a gentleman called Harry Turner, who was the nuclear branch chief for the JIO, which is the Australian equivalent of the Defense Intelligence Agency, DIA. And it's like page eight or seven through 18 of the document, which is in the Australian National Archives. The providence is impeccable. Uh, Harry Turner had a top-secret clearance, clearly, and had contacts at CIA and in America. And if you read a summary, it's like, yeah, Blue Book was a facade. The Air Force was fucking really concerned about this. They wanted to figure out what was going on. Could they make use of whatever this technology is? And they created this, um, uh, plan of ridicule and, and disinformation, unfortunately, after the Robertson Panel in 1953 to dissuade the public from looking in on it because America was afraid of that being used as a false flag by the Soviets, and there was other kind of national security objectives. And that's publicly accessible. You can read it, and that was from the Australian government's perspective what the cover-up was in 1971, looking back from late '40s, the president at the time, and that's essentially the, the, the thesis of, of Harry Turner. So of course, this is outside looking in, but he was very well-informed and he, um, he traveled to the US and talked to the CIA a lot and so he, he stitched together the, the, the puzzle in his mind of what he thought was going on.

Joe Rogan 2:00:49 Well, it's also the statements-

David Grusch 2:00:50 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:00:50 ... of J. Allen Hynek, who left Project Blue Book and talked openly about his role during Project Blue Book-

David Grusch 2:00:57 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:00:57 ... was to dismiss any and all sightings as being either some sort of a natural occurrence, like ball lightning-

David Grusch 2:01:06 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:01:06 ... or meteor showers or Planet Venus or, you know, just a misunderstanding. And-

David Grusch 2:01:13 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:01:13 ... that he believed after all of his years in Project Blue Book that there was a real phenomenon. And-

David Grusch 2:01:18 Exactly

Joe Rogan 2:01:19 ... and then after he left Project Blue Book, he became a UFO researcher.

David Grusch 2:01:23 Yeah, a lot of it was Donald Keyhoe. There's a lot of, you know, James McDonald, Dr. James McDonald, and a lot of those OGs in this subject area that I only recently learned about, 'cause I haven't been following this until, you know, relatively recently realized it was real. And, you know, that's-

Joe Rogan 2:01:38 What do you know about the Richard Nixon Jackie Gleason story?

David Grusch 2:01:41 I don't know if that happened, but based on Nixon's personality, and he, he, he was knowledgeable on this topic, that might have happened. I don't know, but I could see Nixon doing that, so.

Joe Rogan 2:01:55 Well, it's a-

David Grusch 2:01:56 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:01:56 ... it's a fun one.

David Grusch 2:01:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:01:57 And it's really particularly fun-

David Grusch 2:01:58 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:01:58 ... because Jackie Gleason built a UFO house after he retired.

David Grusch 2:02:01 Oh, did he? I did not know that.

Joe Rogan 2:02:02 You didn't know that one?

David Grusch 2:02:02 No.

Joe Rogan 2:02:03 Ooh, let me show you that house.

David Grusch 2:02:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:02:04 The house is crazy. It was for sale for a while. We thought about buying it, but-

David Grusch 2:02:08 Where is it?

Joe Rogan 2:02:09 It's in Upstate New York, I believe.

David Grusch 2:02:10 Oh, interesting. Okay.

Joe Rogan 2:02:11 Um, it is a very weird house. It's... He built a house that looks like a flying saucer.

David Grusch 2:02:17 Interesting. Interesting

Joe Rogan 2:02:17 ... in the woods. And apparently according to his ex-wife, he was obsessed with flying saucers. That's the inside, but show the outside. Yeah. No, no, the one down there. Yeah. No, separate building

David Grusch 2:02:26 And Jackie Gleason involved people too. Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:02:27 ... there's se- separate buildings that he had on the property, but it was like basically like a UFO-themed property. Like, what the hell's that, Jackie?

David Grusch 2:02:34 Interesting.

Joe Rogan 2:02:35 The fuck are you making?

David Grusch 2:02:36 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 2:02:37 His whole house looked like UFOs. It's very strange.

David Grusch 2:02:41 Well, and with Nixon, there's the whole story, uh, with Robert Emenegger and the promise of footage and, and all that. And from what I understand, the MacArthur Foundation was kind of the, the cutout for that between the, the White House and the filmmakers. And obviously it didn't work out, but-

Joe Rogan 2:02:57 So they were thinking about disclosure as far back as-

David Grusch 2:03:00 Yes

Joe Rogan 2:03:00 ... the Nixon administration?

David Grusch 2:03:01 Yes. And I know of an assessment that was done for Nixon basically saying it's gonna cause absolute fucking chaos. And it's interesting that assessment, right after that assessment, Watergate happened, which is kind of very convenient. [laughs] And so I, I have some questions about that era as well, because it seemed like there was some movement with Nixon. I don't know the rationale or why Nixon wanted to do it, but it seemed like there was, um, some energy. And that's what sucks, is like, so Trump's finally the first president to like overtly say, "I want all this shit out," and like other presidents have failed and he, he really has an opportunity. I mean, it's the same thing, I go, uh, back to the, uh, the Hillary Clinton thing, right? So in prior to the 2016 election, Hillary talked publicly, and this is public record, that if elected she would re- release the UFO files. So what happened was, you know, John Podesta greenlit a, uh, call it a acclimatization activity, a popularization activity. And you know, that's why Tom DeLonge got his advisors. That's why General McAslin talked to him. It wasn't because General McAslin, Robert Weiss at Lockheed, other people, that's all in WikiLeaks, um, just wanted to talk to Tom 'cause he was a rock star and, you know, was infatuated by his celebrity and wanted to help on a sci-fi movie. It was because they were given top cover to see Tom as a public figure who had the touch of the youth. Um, rightly or wrongly, I mean, I... Once again, there was an attempt, and I'm not gonna judge them bad or good, but, uh, they were trying to prep the battle space, uh, prior to 2016. Obviously, Hillary didn't win. Uh, Trump won. And clearly that activity pivoted and you saw kind of the collapse of, uh, uh, uh, the original TTSA efforts in my opinion. That's what I believe happened. Now, the characters that were involved in that are happy to tell their side of the story or more information, but from what I understand, they were trying to get, you know, Hillary... There was an inside job to prep the battle space for Hillary. Um, uh, Jim Clapper and some other people that I know personally were pro- providing some top cover and, uh, and that was gonna be the thing. So, uh, the Clintons were trying to do it back in the day. So-

Joe Rogan 2:05:19 Don't you think that that's also just a, a political ploy to get people to wanna vote for you?

David Grusch 2:05:23 Oh. Oh, certainly there's politics in that. And obviously even in this current situation, you know, the president can use this for political ends, ways, and means, whether making some threshold announcement for the upcoming midterms or by, you know, the 2028 election cycle. I mean, it could be used in, in political ways too, so. But it is a real topic and the government has real information on it, though, so.

Joe Rogan 2:05:45 Hmm. Okay. So, so we've covered the grays, the tall grays, the little grays, the reptilians, various forms, the Nordic-looking, Greek god-looking ones.

David Grusch 2:05:56 Yeah, and there's like a-

Joe Rogan 2:05:57 Isn't there like a mantis?

David Grusch 2:05:58 ... subtypes there too. Uh, in terms of the humanoid ones, there's like different kind of, from very human to cl- clearly not human, but humanoid-ish. But like you said, I have heard, I'll call it water cooler talk within those channels of, like you said, some sort of insectoid, but I don't know anything about it, if that exists. I, I've heard, you know, like I said, water cooler talk about it. Um, I'm open to that idea, clearly, 'cause of all this other stuff, but I don't have any knowledge of that, um-

Joe Rogan 2:06:30 Is there-

David Grusch 2:06:30 ... and any high confidence

Joe Rogan 2:06:31 ... any detailed, uh, description of the number of different types of entities and beings?

David Grusch 2:06:38 I mean, the program has that. I mean, I never had-

Joe Rogan 2:06:40 And you have never had access to any of that?

David Grusch 2:06:41 I never had, I never had full access, no.

Joe Rogan 2:06:43 Did anybody ever discuss it? Like, how many they think there are? Is it upwards of 10? Is it more? Is it 20?

David Grusch 2:06:49 No specific numericals. I only remember in passing having those discussions. And of course I was sitting in Senate chambers when that crazy meeting happened where I found out, you know, they wanted to physically hurt me. But, um, some of those were brought up in passing, but there wasn't like a, "Here's the exact number and here's the whole, you know, organizational chart."

Joe Rogan 2:07:09 Right.

David Grusch 2:07:09 I never got exposure like that, so I unfortunately don't have that level of confidence on how everything is, so.

Joe Rogan 2:07:14 Do you know what supposedly happened to those living reptilians from the crash?

David Grusch 2:07:20 Uh, uh, deceased. They were killed.

Joe Rogan 2:07:23 They were killed?

David Grusch 2:07:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:07:24 So we killed them?

David Grusch 2:07:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:07:26 Whoa.

David Grusch 2:07:27 They are mortal, so it's-

Joe Rogan 2:07:28 So how'd we kill them?

David Grusch 2:07:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:07:30 Did we shoot them?

David Grusch 2:07:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:07:32 We shot the reptilians?

David Grusch 2:07:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:07:33 Jesus.

David Grusch 2:07:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:07:34 That seems like a bad idea.

David Grusch 2:07:37 Yeah. I, that's the-

Joe Rogan 2:07:38 Like, maybe we should like tell them to call your friends-

David Grusch 2:07:40 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:07:40 ... and come get picked up.

David Grusch 2:07:42 Well, it's the same thing as like if we force these craft down, is that the best thing we should be doing? You know?

Joe Rogan 2:07:46 If we force it down.

David Grusch 2:07:47 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:07:47 But it sounds like they were in a war with the grays.

David Grusch 2:07:49 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:07:49 Which is also, by the way, I realize, fucking kooky talk. But, um-

David Grusch 2:07:54 It sounds crazy, but I swear to God, I was in the most sensitive-

Joe Rogan 2:07:59 Oh, I believe you

David Grusch 2:07:59 ... places in government where that discussion was happening with-

Joe Rogan 2:08:04 Well, listen, if it was real-

David Grusch 2:08:04 ... unbelievable level of people

Joe Rogan 2:08:05 ... if it was real, there's no way it doesn't sound kooky.

David Grusch 2:08:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:08:08 Even if it's real.

David Grusch 2:08:09 I know. I know. And it- Even though I've, I know what I know, I'm confident in what I know, but just understanding this like new- [lips smack] um, normal that is eventually gonna come out. It's just, it still hurts my head, honestly.

Joe Rogan 2:08:22 How could it not?

David Grusch 2:08:23 So, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:08:23 Um, why did they... Do you know why they killed the reptilians-

David Grusch 2:08:28 Uh, it, it-

Joe Rogan 2:08:28 ... instead of just telling them to call their homies?

David Grusch 2:08:29 It, it, it posed a threat to the team.

Joe Rogan 2:08:31 They posed a threat.

David Grusch 2:08:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:08:33 Oh, so it was defending itself?

David Grusch 2:08:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:08:35 Well, it was a giant reptile.

David Grusch 2:08:37 Yeah. So at some point, that story will come out, and I'm sure the people who were in some of those events will probably speak publicly at some point.

Joe Rogan 2:08:44 So it posed a threat, like it tried to attack the soldiers?

David Grusch 2:08:48 Yeah. Yeah. It's... I'll let the people who were there tell their story on that.

Joe Rogan 2:08:51 Can you tell, like, a little bit of it?

David Grusch 2:08:53 Yeah. So I mean, it just posed a threat and, uh, you know, uh, s- uh, US personnel started, you know, getting hurt and dying, and so.

Joe Rogan 2:09:02 So US personnel was killed by these reptilians.

David Grusch 2:09:05 Yeah. I know, it's crazy, man, but-

Joe Rogan 2:09:07 What?

David Grusch 2:09:08 It is.

Joe Rogan 2:09:08 Like, how many people were killed?

David Grusch 2:09:10 I don't know the exact numbers. And once again, I-

Joe Rogan 2:09:12 So it was like a fight.

David Grusch 2:09:13 Yeah. I hope-

Joe Rogan 2:09:13 A fight broke out.

David Grusch 2:09:14 Yeah. And I hope through this process, some of those people are allowed to speak publicly about it so you can just hear it from the horse's mouth, not through me secondhand, you know? So-

Joe Rogan 2:09:22 Bro, boy would I would like to talk to someone who's shot a reptile.

David Grusch 2:09:26 [laughs] You never know. You may.

Joe Rogan 2:09:28 Imagine-

David Grusch 2:09:29 So

Joe Rogan 2:09:29 ... talking to some guy who shot a seven-foot reptilian. I mean, you think-

David Grusch 2:09:33 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:09:33 ... you wanna talk to the guy who killed Bin Laden. That's interesting. Talk to the guy who killed the fucking seven-foot reptilian that tried to kill people.

David Grusch 2:09:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:09:40 Or was killing soldiers.

David Grusch 2:09:41 Yeah. I know.

Joe Rogan 2:09:41 [lips smack] Sounds-

David Grusch 2:09:43 It's pretty crazy

Joe Rogan 2:09:44 ... so goofy, though.

David Grusch 2:09:45 I know. I-

Joe Rogan 2:09:45 While you're saying it, it sounds like-

David Grusch 2:09:46 [laughs]

Joe Rogan 2:09:47 This is... And this is one of the reasons why people don't like to talk about it.

David Grusch 2:09:49 Well, and-

Joe Rogan 2:09:50 Because it makes you look like a fool

David Grusch 2:09:51 ... if you think about me, like, I was a very serious intel officer. I had access to the most sensitive stuff, like cover... I was working on covert action activities, all this. And then all of a sudden, I'm inundated with this ecosystem and I'm having to explain this, you know, to, you know, members of Congress, you know, my classified testimony, and it's just like, I sound like a fucking crazy person. And-

Joe Rogan 2:10:12 Yeah

David Grusch 2:10:12 ... but, but once again, it's true, and I know who I talked to, I know what I saw, and, and I, you know, I clearly have some inkling of what's going on behind the scenes. And, and, and this is a real reality, man.

Joe Rogan 2:10:25 [laughs]

David Grusch 2:10:25 And it's, it's, uh... and I hope people look back at this interview and are like, "Yeah, Dave was fucking really putting his ass on the line," you know?

Joe Rogan 2:10:32 Listen, it sounds strange-

David Grusch 2:10:33 So

Joe Rogan 2:10:33 ... but it's not nearly as strange as the universe itself.

David Grusch 2:10:36 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 2:10:36 The universe itself is beyond strange.

David Grusch 2:10:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:10:38 The, the, the infinite nature of it, the fact that there's stellar nurseries and black holes, like, that's-

David Grusch 2:10:43 Like, what's dark matter?

Joe Rogan 2:10:44 Yeah.

David Grusch 2:10:44 Nobody really... There's no consensus on that.

Joe Rogan 2:10:46 What's dark energy?

David Grusch 2:10:47 There's WIMPs and-

Joe Rogan 2:10:48 Yeah

David Grusch 2:10:48 ... all this other, other theories.

Joe Rogan 2:10:49 Yeah.

David Grusch 2:10:49 And so, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:10:49 The whole idea of the universe is fucking kooky as shit, and so these beings, this is a very minor level-

David Grusch 2:10:56 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:10:56 ... of kooky in comparison to what we know.

David Grusch 2:10:59 Well, when you think about it, you look at all the, um, credible military witnesses that have had encounters at nuclear sites. I mean, you even look at the Mario Woods and Michael Johnson case up at Ellsworth Air Force Base in the '70s that Jesse Michaels just did an episode on.

Joe Rogan 2:11:15 Yes.

David Grusch 2:11:15 And it's like, think about those military personnel. Like, d- you saw the emotion in their face talking about like, "I can't believe I'm talking about a gray pushing some sort of probe in me." And it's like they're even more uncomfortable than myself, 'cause they are claiming that they experienced that. And you look at Robert Hastings' boo- book, UFOs and Nukes, and all the different encounters military personnel have had. Sober, trained observers that are not drunk on duty, they're not high. And, um, and I've had unbelievable high-level serious people in and out of government privately pull me aside and tell me about their personal experiences and like, "Dave, you're the only person I can tell. I can only tell my wife, 'cause I had this thing and this happened, this happened. I, I thought I was losing my mind, but this really happened," and it was... And it's, it's, I think, a lot, a, a bigger part of the populace, I think, has had experiences than statistics would tell you just because of the stigmatization of the topic, you know?

Joe Rogan 2:12:13 Well, yeah. I mean, I don't know very many people that have had encounters, but all of them are very reluctant to talk about it.

David Grusch 2:12:19 Oh, yes. And-

Joe Rogan 2:12:21 Especially people with, like, credible jobs.

David Grusch 2:12:22 Yeah. And it's the same thing, like there's a lot of people behind the scenes that are very credible supporting me, talking to people behind the scenes to bolster my efforts, and they're like, "Dave, I could never, you know, be public like you." And so I'm like, "Trust me, I don't wanna do this either." Like, I, I'd like to, you know, go back to work in the executive branch, put my uniform back on, and, uh, go kill terrorists. I used to hunt warlords. Like, I did a lot of crazy shit. I used to do hostage rescue, do the overwatch for that with certain JSOC elements. And I've had a l- I've done a lot of serious crazy shit in my career. Unfortunately, a lot of it was traumatizing and, you know, got PTSD from it. But, um, [lips smack] yeah, it's just a lot of people. Still, even at where we are right now in the movie, so to speak, where we're on the threshold of possibly President Trump succeeding and his team getting this information out there if they can, you know, uh, broker a way ahead with the elements, I'll call it the deep state, that are, that are holding on. And, a- and it seems crazy like, well, well, but couldn't the White House just, you know, break down the door? Like, what, why is there pushback, all that? Well, you think about, like, MKUltra and how Richard Helms told Sidney Gottlieb to destroy the records, and the only reason why we know of MKUltra is, uh, Seymour Hersh, right? The New York Times story. There was a leak to the Times. Then, uh, Frank Church and other people got, uh, information from whistleblowers, and then they found the financial records that weren't destroyed, um, in 1973 through '75. And, and also what they call the, what's it called, family jewels, crown jewels, where- [lips smack] Uh, CIA Director Schlesinger wrote down, like, all the bad stuff the CIA was doing that, like, you know, w- we wanna make sure this stuff doesn't come out. And then there was, like, a 1964-ish CIA Inspector General report that was classified and clearly wasn't given to Congress, and that's the only r- wa- reason we know about MKUltra. It was reluctantly. There was an oopsies, you know, and it, and part of this went public. A- and, and so I guess there's some historical parallels to, to my journey and, and, and stuff on this issue. But... And, and once again, MKUltra, like, they had to drag CIA to con- they had found all this other bad stuff, the heart attack gun.

Joe Rogan 2:14:31 Mm-hmm.

David Grusch 2:14:32 All this stuff in the Church committee hearings and, you know, the, the intelli-

Joe Rogan 2:14:35 Operation Midnight Climax.

David Grusch 2:14:36 It, it ma- then there was, um, what's the funny name? [laughs] I'm gonna laugh about that one.

Joe Rogan 2:14:40 That's the brothels.

David Grusch 2:14:41 Yeah. What was it? Oh, well-

Joe Rogan 2:14:42 Yeah, it's the brothels-

David Grusch 2:14:42 ... very, very apropos

Joe Rogan 2:14:42 ... where they gave people acid.

David Grusch 2:14:44 [laughs] Well, and then, um, you just saw, there was a story coming out where they, like, sprayed the city of San Francisco in 19, uh, '76. That was just out in SFGATE-

Joe Rogan 2:14:53 Mm-hmm

David Grusch 2:14:53 ... a couple days ago.

Joe Rogan 2:14:53 See how they can spread disease.

David Grusch 2:14:55 Yeah. And then-

Joe Rogan 2:14:55 Yeah

David Grusch 2:14:55 ... and then you had, uh, Mockingbird, where they had people on the payroll.

Joe Rogan 2:14:59 Yeah.

David Grusch 2:14:59 And, and it's like, okay, that's kind of ethically dubious 'cause it's domestic, but it's influenced foreign powers. Okay, Smith-Mundt Act, a 1948 violation sorta, you know. On and on and on, so-

Joe Rogan 2:15:10 But the-

David Grusch 2:15:11 ... yeah

Joe Rogan 2:15:11 ... I think what people really have a hard time comprehending is that if this is real, and if we have been visited, why doesn't everyone know about it already? Why haven't they made it- themselves known? Why don't we-

David Grusch 2:15:22 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:15:22 ... why... And then there's also this weird thing if anybody that's actually experienced it. Like, if you have a novel experience. If you are going through a, a [lips smack] you know, you're going through a national park in Utah and there's no one out there. And then all of a sudden some disc shows up, hovers over you, lands. Some strange creatures, you know, l- come out of it, talk to you telepathically, get back in the disc and take off. And then-

David Grusch 2:15:46 Then you have all the Missing 411 stuff, though, out there too.

Joe Rogan 2:15:48 Oh, yeah.

David Grusch 2:15:48 That-

Joe Rogan 2:15:48 I had that guy on too

David Grusch 2:15:49 ... cl- clothes are folded. I don't know-

Joe Rogan 2:15:51 Mm-hmm

David Grusch 2:15:51 ... the answer to that. And I think, so why isn't this more pervasive? I would say it's reasonably pervasive, but we see these craft using cover, concealment, deception techniques such as signature management, right? Like think-

Joe Rogan 2:16:02 Yes

David Grusch 2:16:02 ... of the Klingon bird-of-prey cloaking, right?

Joe Rogan 2:16:04 Uh-huh.

David Grusch 2:16:05 We, we have seen that. And, and so they're, they're masking their signature. But like as Jacques Vallée will say, there's some sort of control system. It's like a show and display thing. It's a stimulus for a lot of this. And then also, why don't they overtly interact? That gets into, like, the exopolitic of this. I certainly am not conversant in that yet. I hope to learn more as the public, to learn more about the objectives, why they're here, why there hasn't been overt contact, but clearly interactions with, you know, the secular nation state governments. And, well, what's the arrangement? I don't know the answer to that. And, and so there's [lips smack] or is it, um, like the prime directive in Star Trek, right? Where they're, oh, they're pre-warp civilization. We observe. We're interested here. We're studying the planet. But we're not gonna overtly influence their development 'cause that's unethical according to our, uh, n- standards of behavior and norms and rules of engagement, you know. Like, like it is in Star Trek, for example. So-

Joe Rogan 2:17:02 Well, also-

David Grusch 2:17:03 ... yeah

Joe Rogan 2:17:03 ... just to, to avoid any sort of unbelievably catastrophic just upheaval-

David Grusch 2:17:09 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:17:09 ... of society. You would do it very slowly, like it's being done.

David Grusch 2:17:13 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 2:17:14 Like today, the way it's being discussed is very different than the way it was being discussed 20 years ago, right? So 20 years ago is 2016. We hadn't ha- or 10 years ago was 2016. We hadn't had the New York Times story yet.

David Grusch 2:17:26 Mm.

Joe Rogan 2:17:26 The New York Times story was 2017.

David Grusch 2:17:28 Yep.

Joe Rogan 2:17:28 That changed everything, I think. 20- 10 years before that, you talked about this stuff, you were a fucking idiot and a kook.

David Grusch 2:17:36 This is a cottage industry.

Joe Rogan 2:17:37 Right.

David Grusch 2:17:37 And I also, going back to the kind of the pattern of lifing-ness, so to speak, I think the nature of the interaction was more overt in antiquity. So something changed at some point in human history where going back to Greek gods and-

Joe Rogan 2:17:50 Mm-hmm

David Grusch 2:17:50 ... you know, the Anunnaki. Uh, whatever ends up being true, we'll find out, I guess, in this process. That seems more overt. They're like l- you know, uh, mass kind of interactions. But then-

Joe Rogan 2:18:02 Well, I'm sure you've seen those ancient-

David Grusch 2:18:03 ... for some reason it changed. Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:18:04 ... those ancient paintings, that it looks like a guy sitting in a craft that has-

David Grusch 2:18:07 Yeah, exactly

Joe Rogan 2:18:08 ... like, fire behind it, and he's flying through the sky.

David Grusch 2:18:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:18:10 Like, what the fuck is that?

David Grusch 2:18:13 Yeah, I'm not full, uh, Chariots of the Gods or whatever, that book. But like-

Joe Rogan 2:18:16 Right

David Grusch 2:18:16 ... I think there's probably a h- happy medium that ends up being accurate. And but it looks like the nature of the interaction, does that mean a different group of intelligences?

Joe Rogan 2:18:24 Right.

David Grusch 2:18:25 And then the group-

Joe Rogan 2:18:25 How many of them are there?

David Grusch 2:18:25 And the group changed-

Joe Rogan 2:18:27 Right

David Grusch 2:18:27 ... and went away. And there's, like, this new generation. I don't know the answer to that. But it does seem, if you pattern of life it, um, the nature of their show and display, their concealment, deception, their pre- their forced presentation, so to speak, you know, to use kind of military talk, has changed. And clearly, um, [lips smack] they're, they're less, uh, likely to do anything major, negative or positive-

Joe Rogan 2:18:50 Right

David Grusch 2:18:50 ... for this, for whatever reason. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 2:18:51 Is there a consensus as to their origin? Because I know that... Or, or is it, do they vary wildly? Like, there's a-

David Grusch 2:18:59 I, I think there is-

Joe Rogan 2:18:59 Like Tim Goodshire has talked about the ocean.

David Grusch 2:19:01 There is. Yes. The, we know a lot about that. And-

Joe Rogan 2:19:05 What do we know about that?

David Grusch 2:19:05 Well, let me be careful 'cause it gets into sensitive Navy underwater things. Um, uh, there's clearly some sort of base of operations in certain locations. Um, it's large. Don't know when it got there. So it's-

Joe Rogan 2:19:21 It's large.

David Grusch 2:19:22 Large. Like multiple city blocks type stuff. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:19:25 So there's multiple city blocks somewhere in the bottom of the ocean.

David Grusch 2:19:29 Yeah. And it's like... Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:19:31 Do you know what the, about the Baltic Sea anomaly?

David Grusch 2:19:33 Yeah. [laughs] Well, the-

Joe Rogan 2:19:34 Ooh.

David Grusch 2:19:34 Yeah. The-

Joe Rogan 2:19:35 You laugh.

David Grusch 2:19:36 Yeah. The-

Joe Rogan 2:19:36 What's going on with that?

David Grusch 2:19:37 There's, there's some interesting stuff there. And-

Joe Rogan 2:19:39 [laughs]

David Grusch 2:19:39 ... um, once again, I will allow-

Joe Rogan 2:19:41 That looks like an aluminum coffin

David Grusch 2:19:42 ... the federal government to deal with that one and our allies and adversaries. So.

Joe Rogan 2:19:45 Okay.

David Grusch 2:19:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:19:46 Um, but you did say that there's-

David Grusch 2:19:48 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:19:48 ... multiple city blocks under the ocean.

David Grusch 2:19:51 Yeah. I will tell you, underwater people I know, um, that come from that community, they're, they're always like, "You know the movie The Abyss, Dave?" It's kind of a docudrama. And I'm like, "Holy fuck," you know, that movie, you know, with Ed Harris back in '89. And so that kind of gives you a sense in a pop-sci kind of way for people to visualize there is large shit down there. And it's like the origin is indeterminate. I'm sure we know a little bit more. I'm not privy to that. And, and the way we know things and track th- that gets into sensitive national security stuff.

Joe Rogan 2:20:26 Mm-hmm.

David Grusch 2:20:27 And, um, you know, the government may have to reveal some of that through some sort of acknowledgement strategy. But, uh-

Joe Rogan 2:20:31 The way it's been described to you are these large city blocks or whatever the hell it is under the ocean, is this a waypoint? Is this a stop-off?

David Grusch 2:20:39 L- it looks like a base

Joe Rogan 2:20:40 ... like a f- a fort, a base?

David Grusch 2:20:40 'Cause stuff, stuff comes and goes.

Joe Rogan 2:20:42 Okay.

David Grusch 2:20:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:20:43 So this is, like, where they observe and ...

David Grusch 2:20:46 Yeah. I'm sure we've done an analy- a behavioral analysis on it, and we probably have figured out maybe the mission or whatever you wanna call it.

Joe Rogan 2:20:56 Uh-huh.

David Grusch 2:20:56 So I don't know the answer to that. I, I'm as curious as anybody, honestly, so.

Joe Rogan 2:21:00 Um, one thing I wanted to talk to you about, 'cause it just recently started hitting the news, uh, or Twitter at least. Someone sent it to me. Um, this guy Matthew Brown saying that you, uh, tricked him in a PSYOP into revealing that there's b- you turned him into a whistleblower-

David Grusch 2:21:16 Oh, my God

Joe Rogan 2:21:16 ... do you know his story?

David Grusch 2:21:17 I didn't even know Matt Brown until right before the 2024 hearing. I never met the guy while I was a, you know-

Joe Rogan 2:21:24 I sent it to you, Jamie

David Grusch 2:21:24 ... intel officer.

Joe Rogan 2:21:25 I, I, I'd had to bring it up to you because a bunch of people said-

David Grusch 2:21:27 Yeah, there was, like, some schizo stuff

Joe Rogan 2:21:28 ... "Make sure you ask him about this."

David Grusch 2:21:29 Oh, because I w- because I was at the Schriever war game, uh, high-level cell advisor that I, I somehow made fake stuff. And, and, and, and the, the briefing that, that Matt says he saw, I've never seen. I can't evaluate the contents of that. And, and I didn't make anything. Um, I've never made a hazing brief on this topic. I made some fun briefs just to fuck with some of my airmen back in the day. Um, some Star Trek related stuff and just for, you know-

Joe Rogan 2:21:58 To, but you're aware-

David Grusch 2:21:59 ... morale

Joe Rogan 2:21:59 ... of this, right?

David Grusch 2:22:00 But yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:22:00 So what is he, what is he alleging?

David Grusch 2:22:03 He alleges inadvertent exposure. He was cleaning up the file system on a classified system in, I think it was, like, 2018 or something like that, and, you know, he found this briefing. Um, once again, I met Matt or talked to him for the first time in, like, 2024, well after I left, uh, the intelligence community, so I didn't even know he existed. And, um, unfortunately, I've never seen a briefing like that, so I can't evaluate the, the contents.

Joe Rogan 2:22:31 Mm-hmm.

David Grusch 2:22:31 So, um, so-

Joe Rogan 2:22:32 Have you communicated with him after he said this?

David Grusch 2:22:35 Oh, oh-

Joe Rogan 2:22:35 That he s-

David Grusch 2:22:36 Oh, oh, sure. Sure. Yeah. I mean, just to, in support, making sure he has resources and-

Joe Rogan 2:22:40 No, but I mean after he said that you PSYOP'd him, have you communicated with him since then?

David Grusch 2:22:44 Oh, he said that?

Joe Rogan 2:22:45 Isn't that what it says?

David Grusch 2:22:46 I think that might have been people saying that.

Joe Rogan 2:22:47 Yeah, it says some- Other people saying? Yeah. It says, like- Okay ... in other words, yeah.

David Grusch 2:22:50 That's news to me. Uh-

Joe Rogan 2:22:51 So that makes sense

David Grusch 2:22:52 ... I'll call Matt after. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 2:22:53 So that what- Yeah ... what it is-

David Grusch 2:22:54 Yeah

Joe Rogan 2:22:54 ... is other people alleging that that's how it went down.

David Grusch 2:22:57 Yeah. There's a lot of theories online-

Joe Rogan 2:22:59 Of course

David Grusch 2:22:59 ... about, like, myself and, "Oh, I'm being handled." I'm ... Dude, it's just me. It's sad. It's just me. And, like-

Joe Rogan 2:23:07 Yeah

David Grusch 2:23:07 ... my bros and, like, there's higher up people, like, helping, but unfortunately, like, nobody's telling me to do X, Y, and Z and-

Joe Rogan 2:23:14 Uh-huh

David Grusch 2:23:14 ... stuff. Obviously, if the president wants me officially involved, I'm happy, but, like, you know, it ... I'm just the dude, you know, doing what I need to do.

Joe Rogan 2:23:22 Right.

David Grusch 2:23:22 And so yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:23:23 Um, what other weirdness of it, before we wrap this up, what other weirdness of it do you think people don't know about?

David Grusch 2:23:30 Hmm. You know, I think there's something to synchronicities, and I don't have an answer why that happens. It just seem- like, weird things just, like, happen or work out and, and this is about as woo as I get, and I just look at my own personal journey. Um, you know, I was in, like, the right place at the right time in so many instances in my career to learn certain things that would help me later and, like, you know-

Joe Rogan 2:23:59 Uh-huh

David Grusch 2:23:59 ... met certain people at the right time. And, a- and of course, you know, there's, like, a, a analytical bias most humans have where they're ascribing meaning to certain interactions that are actually truly random, statistically random.

Joe Rogan 2:24:10 Right.

David Grusch 2:24:11 But I've talked to enough people that say the same thing, and I just ... There's something go- there's a, there's, like, a hidden hand part of the phenomenon that I can't ... I, it's like a certain je ne sais quoi I can't, like, point my finger on that I think is really interesting, too, but that's about as woo as I get.

Joe Rogan 2:24:29 Do you think-

David Grusch 2:24:29 I don't know, so

Joe Rogan 2:24:29 ... that is the nature of the fabric of the universe, or do you think that this has something to do with extraterrestrial intervention?

David Grusch 2:24:35 Well, I think that's, like, almost, like, going back to remote viewing, 'cause, you know, the Stargate program, Grill Flame, all the different names it had, like, that was adjacent to the program. Why do you think we were doing the psychic spying program besides competing with the Soviets and Chinese on the same topic is because that's the key unlock to some of the technology potentially.

Joe Rogan 2:24:53 Right.

David Grusch 2:24:53 If you could figure out how to ... And it's a, it's what, like, they call it, like, BCI, brain computer interface, but, like-

Joe Rogan 2:24:58 Right

David Grusch 2:24:58 ... clearly there's some sort of organic to tech interface and, and it's clearly consciousness-based. Um, not to digress on your-

Joe Rogan 2:25:07 No, but this is what-

David Grusch 2:25:08 ... original question

Joe Rogan 2:25:08 ... Lazar said as well.

David Grusch 2:25:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:25:10 That there was no instruments and that these things controlled this with their mind.

David Grusch 2:25:14 It depends on the class of vehicle, and, like, there's, like, really weird shit that we have no idea how it works to, like, oh, that kind of looks familiar, you know, kind of thing.

Joe Rogan 2:25:22 What's the weirdest of the really weird shit?

David Grusch 2:25:24 Um, I mean, you just have, like, the eggs and stuff. They're, like, usually unmanned. Usually. And it's like, oh, is this, like, a probe? It's just, it's, like, a fucking egg, you know? Like, and, um, I know Jake Barber has talked about publicly recovering them, you know?

Joe Rogan 2:25:38 Mm-hmm.

David Grusch 2:25:38 And, uh, you know, I heard, I, you know, heard about that elsewhere from people who were, were dealing with that. It's just, it's kind of weird. It's like this amorphous thing. It's like the movie, like, Arrival, right? You g- it-

Joe Rogan 2:25:50 Right. That-

David Grusch 2:25:51 W-

Joe Rogan 2:25:51 That's a great movie

David Grusch 2:25:51 ... is the, yeah, is the technology, like, embedded in the skin? Like, what is going on here? There's, like, no, no obvious control surfaces. Like, what the, what's going on?

Joe Rogan 2:26:00 Right.

David Grusch 2:26:01 So yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:26:01 Right. Um- Uh, what, what kind of timeline do you think we're looking at in terms of, like, really changing the world?

David Grusch 2:26:08 I think the, the basic affirmation, the threshold disclosure, you know, call it we're not alone, we have stuff kind of thing, it has to happen before Trump leaves-

Joe Rogan 2:26:18 Right

David Grusch 2:26:18 ... because I don't trust another president to follow through on the president's directive. 'Cause, you know, it's the, the, the, the next administration can be like, "We're peeling that back, baby. We're not touching this again." So-

Joe Rogan 2:26:29 Of course

David Grusch 2:26:29 ... I think he has to do it before he leaves office. And if I were, um, advising the president, and if they're- the team's listening, I would do it at least six months before the election just so there's some sort of recovery period and kind of, uh, and whatnot. But, uh, I'm just a dude. Obviously, I want it as soon as possible, like most Americans listening to this. Um, but-

Joe Rogan 2:26:51 How do you envision that something like that would take place? Would they have a broadcast? Would they show video and explain?

David Grusch 2:26:59 That was a plan at one point for a previous administration, is they were gonna have, like, a- one of those, like, government-

Joe Rogan 2:27:04 Was this the Bush administration d- with the Hal Puthoff days?

David Grusch 2:27:07 No, this was, uh, H.W.

Joe Rogan 2:27:10 Oh.

David Grusch 2:27:10 Yeah. And so I'm sure the video sucked. It was- probably had some synth wave government, you know, film from, like, the 1989. Like, do, do, do.

Joe Rogan 2:27:18 Right.

David Grusch 2:27:18 You know? And it was probably gonna be horrible and dry, but there was gonna be this, like, audiovisual kind of a, a companion to some sort of announcement. Now, I don't know all the, the, the specific details after that. Um, clearly there has to be a physical rollout for all this info.

Joe Rogan 2:27:34 God, I hope that video exists.

David Grusch 2:27:36 Oh.

Joe Rogan 2:27:36 It's out there in the archive somewhere.

David Grusch 2:27:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:27:38 We could watch it after disclosure.

David Grusch 2:27:39 I know. We need to have, like, a throwback. Like, what, you know, s- see the old shit kind of thing. So, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:27:42 Well, if you think about, like, how long it's been that people are- have, like, slowly become more and more aware of this, it's- it seems like a long time, but our lives are very short.

David Grusch 2:27:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:27:54 And the, the reality is if this thing, this, this phenomenon has coexisted with human beings and g- i- guided us, aided us in some way-

David Grusch 2:28:04 And that's why I don't think people should be too fearful. I mean, obviously there's a yin and yang in the universe. There's malevolent, benevolent. But, uh, clearly there's some homeostasis going on right now, and there's been this, call it cohabitation for the lack of a better way to describe it, and, uh, and, and clearly nothing-

Joe Rogan 2:28:22 Do you think that-

David Grusch 2:28:22 ... crazy has happened, so

Joe Rogan 2:28:23 ... some of this is in conjunction with AI becoming sentient, and that this was a part of the process?

David Grusch 2:28:30 I don't know that to be a, a fact. However, I, like I said e- earlier in the interview, I am fearful that AI's gonna figure some of this shit out, whether it be tech- technology stuff-

Joe Rogan 2:28:41 Yeah

David Grusch 2:28:42 ... or, um, the fact that we're not alone just by looking at all the disparate databases and correlating data, um, especially if it gets connected to any sort of, uh, genetic record, medical record sensing system. And I think that's a real, um, threat that, uh, if I were to advise the White House, they need to think about that, like, third-party unexpected disclosure pathway that super intelli- artificial super intelligence provides, both from a technology risk perspective, but also revealing some of this too. And, and once again, uh, you know, that ar- artificial silicon-based AI is like, um, is that the infrastructure that we need to communicate to some of this organic intelligence too, because it's able to learn and figure out modalities of communication. I don't know. So-

Joe Rogan 2:29:28 [sighs]

David Grusch 2:29:29 It's pretty crazy.

Joe Rogan 2:29:29 Okay.

David Grusch 2:29:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:29:30 It's a lot to absorb, Dave.

David Grusch 2:29:31 I know. [laughs]

Joe Rogan 2:29:32 Thank you very much for being here, man.

David Grusch 2:29:33 I appreciate it. Thanks, Joe.

Joe Rogan 2:29:34 It's, it's always great to talk to you, and thank you for all your hard work in exposing all this stuff.

David Grusch 2:29:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:29:39 I mean, I really wonder. Like, if it wasn't for you doing all this, how much would we know?

David Grusch 2:29:43 I don't know, man. I just, I hope this is the last time I gotta send it on, on an interview and, uh, it's been tough, really tough. Like, it's been debilitating. I've gone through a lot. You know, I've been in danger, and I've done a lot of stuff for this country over the years, but I'm honored to be that guy, I guess, and, and, and risk it all to, you know, unveil this truth, 'cause it really was a core secret of the United States, so.

Joe Rogan 2:30:07 I certainly think it moves the needle.

David Grusch 2:30:08 Yeah, appreciate it.

Joe Rogan 2:30:09 Thank you. All right. Bye, buddy. [upbeat music]