Joe Rogan Experience #2560 - David Grusch

1. 0:00 – 0:02

   Intro

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      [upbeat music]

2. 0:02 – 2:07

   Grusch’s return: post-Congress testimony, laying low, then joining Rep. Burlison’s staff

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:02

      Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. SPSpeaker0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. [upbeat music] All right, we're up. David, what's up? Good to see you.

   4. DGDavid Grusch0:14

      Thanks for having me back on. Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      My pleasure.

   6. DGDavid Grusch0:16

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      Well, you're the one who's closest to the flame, so tell me what's going on.

   8. DGDavid Grusch0:20

      Oh, I know, right? So, uh, uh, living the nightmare is what I tell my friends. So it's definitely, um, been a tough several years or so. And, uh, you know, last time we were on, uh, just testified in front of Congress and, uh, the UAP Disclosure Act of '23 was, you know, possibly getting passed. It failed to get passed, and then I, um, based on, you know, things I know about the Biden administration, things I heard from the White House, I decided to kind of lay low for a year. So '24, I didn't do too much. And then, uh, Representative Burlison had this crazy idea to, to hire me as a professional staff member for Congress working for him. Uh, turns out, I guess I was, like, the first guy that ever testified in front of Congress as a whistleblower and then being subsequently hired by Congress. Um, I was the first guy to ever do that, which is very interesting and very cool, and I, I do thank Burlison for, um, you know, his leadership on that. And so I did that for about a year and a half. Um, just finished up, actually. I was like, "You know what? I'm staying longer than I thought. You know, I'm gonna wait until Labor Day, see where things are." I worked pretty hard over, uh, s- uh, summer recess in August and, and decided, uh, to, you know, wind down some of my activities 'cause I accomplished a lot of my objectives, and we can get into that obviously. And then, uh, kind of move into I'll call it my next phase of operations, which includes a little break for me. Um, it's been very tiring. I've been kind of, you know, going full throttle for the last couple years and whatnots. And so we're really at a, a, I think, a poignant moment in US history with what Trump's done and in the things you've seen in the media and whatnot, and there's a lot of other stuff happening behind the scenes 'cause, uh, you know, a lot of my work has been private, behind the scenes, you know, working for Congress, w- specifically Representative Burlison. Yeah.

3. 2:07 – 3:06

   Congressional landscape: believers vs skeptics and what Grusch briefs in SCIFs

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:07

      So let me ask you the environment.

   2. DGDavid Grusch2:08

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:08

      So are there some people in Congress that are interested in disclosure of this stuff and pursue you-

   4. DGDavid Grusch2:15

      Yeah

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:15

      ... and wanna find out information and want you to tell them-

   6. DGDavid Grusch2:18

      Yeah

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:19

      ... what, what's going on? And, and then are there other people that are resisting this?

   8. DGDavid Grusch2:24

      Yeah, I think there's a big bifurcation of the non-believers and then kind of the UAP caucus, although you see more and more people kind of signing on to the cause. Like, I did a presser back in June in front of the Capitol with members, and we even had, uh, Brigadier General Retired, uh, Representative Scott Perry there, who is on the House Intelligence Committee from my home state of PA. And it was good to see other members, you know, start showing that they support the cause. But it has been challenging behind the scenes, and I had many SKIF classified meetings with the members kind of going over the topological history of this topic and, and some of the deeper, darker kind of, you know, criminal stuff I bumped into and how I worked with DOJ to kind of highlight some of that stuff. And that's, and we-

4. 3:06 – 5:44

   Following the money: CIA gold bars case and how covert funding can work

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:06

      What kind of criminal stuff?

   2. DGDavid Grusch3:08

      Yeah, so, uh, when I was, um, looking into this, and I have to be very respectful of, uh, my participation in this 'cause it's an ongoing thing with DOJ, um, I was, you know, following the money, bumping into other activities, um, very much like... A- actually, it's sort of related. And if you saw on the news the David Rusch, very similar name to me. It's kind of, uh, freaky. Uh, but he was arrested with $40 million of gold bars. He was a CIA officer. He made a fake, uh, continuity of government special access program. And, you know, he went under the radar basically, um, doing his own thing and getting gold and Rolexes and stuff, and the FBI raided his house back in May.

   3. JRJoe Rogan3:48

      [laughs]

   4. DGDavid Grusch3:48

      True, true story. Yeah, the guy has a-

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:50

      He has, uh, gold bars?

   6. DGDavid Grusch3:51

      He has... He had $40 million of gold bars.

   7. JRJoe Rogan3:53

      Where'd he get the gold bars?

   8. DGDavid Grusch3:55

      From the agency.

   9. JRJoe Rogan3:56

      They have them laying around?

   10. DGDavid Grusch3:58

       Yeah. I can't get into all the details-

   11. JRJoe Rogan3:59

       What?

   12. DGDavid Grusch4:00

       ... of why the gov- the government-

   13. JRJoe Rogan4:01

       Wait a minute. Hold on.

   14. DGDavid Grusch4:01

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan4:02

       The government has gold bars?

   16. DGDavid Grusch4:03

       Yeah. [laughs]

   17. JRJoe Rogan4:04

       And this guy just snatched them?

   18. DGDavid Grusch4:06

       Yeah. He made... I don't know all the details, but he made a fake continuity of government special access program that nobody was briefed into. He, like, you know, papered it, and, uh, nobody at the CIA questioned what he was doing, and he was like, "Well, I need, you know, 40 million in gold bars because of this special continuity of government activity."

   19. JRJoe Rogan4:23

       Wait a minute, wait a minute.

   20. DGDavid Grusch4:24

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan4:24

       So that's how they fund some things?

   22. DGDavid Grusch4:26

       Yes.

   23. JRJoe Rogan4:26

       In gold bars?

   24. DGDavid Grusch4:28

       It's almost like, uh, in Afghanistan when I was over there, I'd have guys with briefcases full of $100,000 in cash 'cause you have to pay for things, right?

   25. JRJoe Rogan4:36

       Right.

   26. DGDavid Grusch4:37

       So imagine-

   27. JRJoe Rogan4:38

       But that kind of makes more sense-

   28. DGDavid Grusch4:39

       Yeah

   29. JRJoe Rogan4:39

       ... to me than lugging around gold.

   30. DGDavid Grusch4:42

       Yeah.
5. 5:44 – 10:14

   Criminal underbelly allegations: trafficking, washed money, and oversight failures

   1. DGDavid Grusch5:44

      And so what I bumped into, unfortunately, was, like, the deep underbelly of the federal government. We can get into it. It's, it's a lot of stuff I've never talked about because it's just very terrifying and I, you know, I've been through a lot of, lot of crazy shit. And I ended up bumping into a criminal enterprise, uh, run out of a particular agency, and, um, it was basically, um- Getting money through certain criminal endeavors, the most unspeakable type of criminal endeavors, under the cover of, uh, certain national security programs. That's about as-

   2. JRJoe Rogan6:18

      When you say-

   3. DGDavid Grusch6:19

      Yeah

   4. JRJoe Rogan6:19

      ... certain unspeakable-

   5. DGDavid Grusch6:20

      Yeah

   6. JRJoe Rogan6:21

      ... you mean like, what do you mean? Like trafficking?

   7. DGDavid Grusch6:26

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan6:27

      Like child trafficking?

   9. DGDavid Grusch6:30

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan6:30

       So the government was involved in child trafficking for money.

   11. DGDavid Grusch6:35

       Officers of the government, that's true. Yeah. It's, it's fucked up. I, uh, I briefed members in a classified setting all the details. Um, and I, I'm highlighting that because this is how serious s- this issue is, is there's an ecosystem. And there's a lot of good people around these programs, uh, in terms of the, the UAP side.

   12. JRJoe Rogan6:54

       UAP programs.

   13. DGDavid Grusch6:55

       Yeah. And I know a lot of them. They're friends of mine. They're patriotic people doing their duty. But there is, like, a small little caste system of characters, um, that are part of this larger ecosystem of, uh, no holds barred, we're gonna do what we want and, you know, we're gonna do whatever kind of criminal activity to get, uh, washed money, uh, for our cutouts. Like, so a good example, of course, would be Iran-Contra, right?

   14. JRJoe Rogan7:15

       Mm-hmm.

   15. DGDavid Grusch7:15

       Which is very famous, '86. And the CIA was engaged in those kind of activities. And this has all been exposed, Oliver North and all that, to fund the Contras, weapons purchases, procurement, et cetera. And a lot of that, you know, seemed to, uh, possibly be drug trafficking. The government never confirmed that, but you look at Barry Seal and, and his, um, uh, statements in the '80s and '90s and, and it's likely that that, um, probably occurred, you know? And so-

   16. JRJoe Rogan7:44

       Yeah, it was all through Freeway Ricky Ross.

   17. DGDavid Grusch7:46

       Yeah, that's right.

   18. JRJoe Rogan7:47

       Yeah, Ricky's been on the podcast multiple times.

   19. DGDavid Grusch7:49

       That's right. That's right.

   20. JRJoe Rogan7:50

       Yeah.

   21. DGDavid Grusch7:50

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan7:51

       He was on, what was it, like, two years ago? A year and a half ago? Last time he was on.

   23. DGDavid Grusch7:55

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan7:55

       Um, it's funny 'cause he's out now, uh, became an attorney while he was in jail.

   25. DGDavid Grusch8:01

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan8:01

       Found out... C- learned to read first, okay? Couldn't read. Became an attorney in jail, found out that they tried him, you know that triple jeopardy, three strikes thing?

   27. DGDavid Grusch8:11

       Yeah. Mm-hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan8:11

       They tried him incorrectly. They used that incorrectly because it's supposed to be three different times you were arrested instead of, like, three crimes that were attached-

   29. DGDavid Grusch8:18

       Mm-hmm

   30. JRJoe Rogan8:18

       ... to one arrest. So he gets out of jail. Now he sells legal weed. [laughs]
6. 10:14 – 12:50

   How Grusch became a whistleblower: administrative retaliation and targeted pressure

   1. DGDavid Grusch10:14

      ... and unfortunately, I got deeply ensnared in that, and there was a very small group of people that, uh, you know, pushed me over the edge and I had to do what I gotta do to, to, you know, protect myself. And I never wanted to be a whistleblower. You know, I was a deeply entrenched, you know, 15-year intel officer, military officer in the Air Force. I, you know, I was working some of the country's most sensitive issues. You know, started going to the White House to brief the National Security Council in my mid-20s on space issues back during the Obama administration. And, and in 2019, when I joined the UAP Task Force and I was tasked to investigate this, I was like, "Sure, I'll look into it." You know, the special access program or black program community has a lot of dysfunction and, and maybe some stuff wasn't reported, you know, it, you know, correctly and, and I didn't know really what I was gonna find, but if there was a US program, you know, I'd figure it out. I'd probably get cleared to it, and we'd be fine. We'd have, like, a mafia meeting and, and, uh, you know, that ... And, and I know why it was protected the way it is and whatnot. But unfortunately, about a year and a half, about October 2020 is when kind of my life changed and re- pers- uh, particular individuals, instead of coming to me, who knew me, by the way, personally. I know, I know them personally. "Now, Dave, you're bumping into something. You know, I'm gonna defensively brief you. This is what it is" or, "Hey, I'm gonna slide an NDA, sign this, and I'll read you in." And, and my colleagues and I joked about that. Like, we're bumping into shit. Eventually somebody's gonna knock on my door in my office and be like, "Hey, I need to talk to you." And unfortunately, that never happens. Um, it's really tragic 'cause that would've been an easier way. But, um, I immediately got administratively nuked in October 2020, and basically they went after everybody around me. Uh, my boss at the National Reconnaissance Office, as, you know, Major Grusch, the Air Force officer in the reserves, got walked out of NRO headquarters in Chantilly, Virginia under- fabricated, uh, personal conduct things and, and they went after, you know, my chief of staff who worked for me at NGA when I was a 15, and, and coworkers, people they thought were my enablers, right? And, um, and I thought, "Okay, I could fight this." They're bringing up, like, my mental health stuff, which we've talked about before, Afghanistan PTSD. I'm like, I reported it. I was cleared of, you know, no problems, kept my top secret clearance, and I still have my top secret clearance. But it got very,

7. 12:50 – 19:39

   Threats, anomalous health incidents, and a Senate SCIF claim: “they wanted to kill you”

   1. DGDavid Grusch12:50

      very, um, scary in early 2022. And I've avoided talking about this for a long time, and I've mentioned in my hearing in 2023, you know, I was, you know, I'm, I'm here in fear for my life, et cetera. Well, you know, I'm not talking about the criminal stuff I found, stuff that's happened in my personal life and stuff. And so back in early 2022, um, everything's fine. Uh, started, uh, noticing some suspicious activity, um, near where I live. And I th- didn't think much of it, thought it was kind of strange, and I don't want to quite go into all the details. But basically, um, later one particular day, uh, I was sent a message that they can touch me and my wife, and they n- they're-- they know where we are, and they-

   2. JRJoe Rogan13:42

      And what-

   3. DGDavid Grusch13:42

      Yeah

   4. JRJoe Rogan13:43

      ... do you think this was partic- Was this because of the child trafficking stuff? Was this because of some other illegal activity th- with no oversight?

   5. DGDavid Grusch13:51

      You know, in private environments, I've, was asked what, what red line, what tripwire did I cross? To this day, I don't know specifically. I suspect, uh, based on them, what turns out they were monitoring my classified computer at work, uh, my re- my investigation notes that I would keep encrypted on there. I think they were very worried that I figured out a lot of things. And I, I still don't know for sure, though. Like, and it-- A- and there's a lot of other things, too. I guess I'm kind of jumping around because, um, i- in early 2021, you know, certain people that were helping me and I was talking to started to experience, uh, Havana Syndrome symptoms, you know, anomalous health incidents. And I know a lot about that. That's another kind of ecosystem I was an expert in in the government. And of course, my first thing is like: Huh, uh, did you piss off the Russians or Chinese or some other kind of foreign intelligence service? Or, 'cause you don't think domestic. And I'm like, "What did you do in your career? Were you on covert action programs? Did you like, you know, bomb some, you know, adversary's building and they're pissed off at you and they hold a grudge?" And so I noticed that. I wasn't gonna equate that to the topic, and, uh, but I, I was very nervous about that, 'cause people I know, uh, were starting to experience those symptoms, specifically, uh, microwave-directed energy, most likely, just based on, um, certain tradecraft they were doing to detect it, which I won't get into the details of that, and then the, their, their symptomology, so to speak. And, uh, so that was frightening. And in the, in the, in that 2021 timeframe, I was sitting at home. I was getting, um, you know, investigated by three agencies, and, um, I really didn't know what was going on. A lot of my colleagues were gonna continuing on that investigation on, on, on my behalf. And eventually, in late 2021, NGA hired me as a 15 off the street, kind of came back into government full time. I was hoping, um, that agency would protect me against, uh, you know, the CIA and the NRO and, and certain elements of the DoD that were going after me because of these, uh, couple antagonists that were trying to, you know, basically, um, push me over the edge administratively. But what, what I crossed the Rubicon in early 2022 when I was sent a message, and it was the s- the same day I was sent a message, other people got that message too, so it was coordinated geographically. And of course, you know, I reported that to federal law enforcement, counterintelligence element. And at the time, I'm like, "Well, you know, there was one adversarial intelligence agency that had an interest in me several years ago, and I had a little incident." That was actually kind of funny. Um, so I wasn't sure if it was, like, the US government or even if it was related, um, to the, my investigation. And then several, several, uh, weeks later, and I w- I get chills talking about this 'cause it's, it's kind of upsetting. Um, I was, uh, in DC, um, for a conference on UAP actually, uh, for my, for my agency, NGA, at the time, and I got summoned to an off-the-books, uh, Senate intel committee, uh, we'll call it meeting, in their, you know, their SCIF, right? Their, their, their vault where you can talk classified information. And certain individuals were there known to me, um, great credentials, people I've known for a while, uh, in my line of work, and so was, you know, a dozen, dozen and a half, uh, senior staff for Marco Rubio, Mark Warner, you know, et cetera, right? And in that meeting, uh, we, you know, we talked about the legacy program, the history, m- many hours, and I'm a fly on the wall. Like, this is really for Senate staff. I'm just kind of sitting in the back. And, you know, they turned to staff, and they p- you know, they pointed at me, and they're like, um, "Oh, by the way, you know, the, these couple individuals," and they, and they named the individuals. I'm like, "I know who they are." Um, uh, "They, uh, wanted to kill you." And, um, I know Lou Elizondo talked about it in-

   6. JRJoe Rogan18:06

      But, but, but why?

   7. DGDavid Grusch18:08

      I do not know that for sure. I think... Well, so, um, hmm. Be careful what I say. Uh, there are certain presidential findings that allow certain things to protect critical things in the government. And my assessment is I was getting so close to exposing it because I was sort of preparing my inspector general's, uh, [tsks] report to the IG that, um, I must have crossed some sort of Rubicon. I still would like to know, and I hope these people are, you know, uh, brought to justice and that's, you know, my wish and dream. And hopefully Department of Justice does what's needed, but- There's an investigation ongoing right now? Yes, on that. And that's all I'll say defensively not to interfere with that. A good day starts with a solid morning routine. So if something's missing, if your body isn't getting what it needs, everything can feel off. AG1 is designed to help fill the holes. Their next gen formula is dialed in with over 75 ingredients, minerals, vitamins, adaptogens, and more, clinically shown to fill nutrient gaps and increase healthy gut bacteria. And AG1 Pro takes it even further. It has CAHMB for muscle protection, zinc carnosine for gut health, and five grams of Creavitalis premium German-made creatine monohydrate, which if you don't know, creatine is a highly studied compound

8. 19:39 – 45:05

   Disclosure now? Trump, Stephen Miller, resistance, and the ‘slow rollout’ strategy

   1. DGDavid Grusch19:39

      in sports science that helps support energy. Get more from your morning routine. Add either AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro and your body will thank you. Go to drinkag1.com/joerogan and for a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro. That's drinkag1.com/joerogan. O- okay. Yeah. How much of this do you think has to do with actual UAP- Yeah ... disclosure, and how much of it has to do with the lack of oversight that allowed people to do illegal activities? I think some problem children decided to abuse some standing options to protect, you know, critical infrastructure in the United States, which, you know, for example, that would be like a Air Force flight line, a, uh, ICBM silo, um, other activities. And they decided, um, I was some sort of threat. Wait, and it's, it's so disgusting because I, you know, like I said, I was a field grade officer in the Air Force. I was a, you know, GS-15 at CIA, colonel equivalent civilian, and I'm sitting there in Senate chambers and I'm hearing this. And I won't get into all the details into a lot. I heard like, you know, all the details on that and, and I don't wanna like, um, [tsks] burn my sources. And, and I just remember how upset Senate staff was, and to the point where, you know, a particular staffer, um, who's very senior went to his office and got some whiskey. And, you know, all of them started drinking in the SCIF 'cause it's like everybody was afraid. Like, "Are they serious? They're... Like, they literally were thinking about killing fucking Dave?" And like, and, and, and I found out that there was a kibosh to that. That's a longer story for someday if I could ever, you know, discuss the whole, the whole history and- So it was considered, but then it was kiboshed. Yes. Thank God. And I know how it was stopped, and I, I owe some people a debt of gratitude literally. And, um, and this was just a few weeks after, you know, I was sent a message. And, and even after the meeting, um, we were finding stuff, and other people were finding stuff, um, to let people know that they're being tracked. And I know this sounds, like, so fucking crazy and, and all that, but- Well, so does- ... that happened ... someone having $40 million- Yeah ... in gold- I know. I know ... laying around their house and a bunch of Rolexes. Yeah. Never did I think... You know, I'm a very patriotic guy. I love serving America. You know, it hurts me every day not having the uniform anymore. And knowing that was the level that they thought about going to because of this [tsks] interesting interpretation of certain standing options, and I-- And, and eventually in this disclosure process, a lot of that'll come out. I just have to be careful what I say now until, you know, the, the president figures out how to, you know, release some of th- this history, unfortunately, so. Understood. Yeah. So one of the things that we talked about before, so you were scheduled for another podcast a while back, but flights got canceled- Oh, yeah ... and we moved it to today. Yeah. But you were saying that it's f- actually fortuitous that it was rescheduled. Yeah. A lot of things are happening. I see the administration getting really, really serious on this, and I think people don't appreciate the courage that Trump is ha- is, is showing right now, uh, ordering the government to release everything we know about this topic. It, it'll be- Courage how so? Like, you think he's in danger from- No ... releasing this information? Not necessarily, but it's, it's, um, the ontological shock and the history coming out and s- sort of the outrage. I mean, I think it'll be uniting sort of like in post-9/11 America after the towers fell, right? You have the, the fear of dirty bombs and other terrorist attacks, but you also have this, like, uh, uniting, uh, panacea that kind of brings people together. Do you think that- Yeah ... is equivalent to what's happening right now? It will be, and I think that's- What is gonna happen? So I believe, uh, before Trump, Trump's term ends that it's all gonna come out. What does that mean? I really do. Everything I've testified about. You know, the fact that, you know, we've been studying this for a while. We've recovered material, AKA intact, semi-intact craft. We've, you know, recovered this anomalous intelligence piloting the craft and, you know, we are reverse engineering that. And obviously, there's other parts to that. It's very complicated ecosystem. A lot of people who are just, "Release it all. Show us Indiana Jones warehouse tour," don't appreciate the care that we're gonna have to Um, proceed with because this is not a static ecosystem. This isn't just like archeology where you're digging up stuff. There is ... You are dealing with, you know, third parties, both human, you know, adversarial countries, et cetera. They have their own program. Then you have, you know, our, this anomalous intelligence, our visitors, NHI, whatever you wanna call them, ultraterrestrial, depending on which taxonomy in the tree that you wanna, um, ascribe some of this origin to. And, uh, and of course, you know, the, the, the national security related technology that has been derived. We've derived great stuff to defend America. I've had exposure on that, and, you know, I'm very reverent to that.

   2. JRJoe Rogan25:01

      We've derived it through back engineering.

   3. DGDavid Grusch25:02

      Yeah. Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan25:03

      100%?

   5. DGDavid Grusch25:04

      Yes. Well, some of it, it, it was inspiration. It wasn't a, a one-to-one, like we, we, we unlocked the iPhone. It was like, "Huh, that's an interesting material. Look at that, um, frequency selective surface property. You know what? We could use that for an aerospace application or, or whatever." And so a lot of it was garnered via inspiration, not one-to-one. Yeah. In some cases, I, I suppose we did, but, like-

   6. JRJoe Rogan25:31

      S-

   7. DGDavid Grusch25:31

      ... that's been most of it. Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan25:33

      So what's the hold up in terms of disclosure?

   9. DGDavid Grusch25:38

      I necessarily can't read the president's mind. Uh, there's certainly a, uh, multilateral kind of diplomatic issue. I mean, so we're in this, this issue now where once we cross the Rubicon, then we affect allies and adversaries. You know, our adversaries have programs. What are they gonna tell their citizenry? You have, uh, possible theological distress, Vatican, et cetera. And I'm, you know, I'm a Catholic and I, I certainly appreciate, uh, the Vatican's long study on this subject, and they've just stayed quiet on what they know. And so it's ... There's a lot of, like, collateral effects. If you're not careful with certain stuff, you, you can, you know, trigger a response, and there is great fear that, uh ... I don't necessarily believe in this, but, like, there has been assessments in the past that, you know, revealing certain things may, you know, trigger a response from a third party. And-

   10. JRJoe Rogan26:31

       Trigger a response from them, from these-

   11. DGDavid Grusch26:33

       Possibly

   12. JRJoe Rogan26:34

       ... entities.

   13. DGDavid Grusch26:34

       Yes. And that is a ... That has been written up. Uh-

   14. JRJoe Rogan26:39

       So the, the-

   15. DGDavid Grusch26:39

       Certain government think tanks wrote that up in reports to p- previous presidents.

   16. JRJoe Rogan26:42

       So the co- the, the, the theory is that we disclose, people are now aware of it all over the globe-

   17. DGDavid Grusch26:49

       Yeah

   18. JRJoe Rogan26:49

       ... and they decide to show themselves?

   19. DGDavid Grusch26:51

       Yeah. I mean, I think there's a real fear of, like, a Ghostbusters moment, I'll say. And-

   20. JRJoe Rogan26:55

       Oh, boy

   21. DGDavid Grusch26:56

       ... you know. And y- it's one of those things where I, I, I'm trying to walk the line and be as diplomatic as possible and also trying to prepare the populace at the same time because clearly the government hasn't right now. And I mean, Trump wants it out for sure. His team needs to be astute enough to know what to ask for, um, you know, uh, massage the deep state and, and get that information 'cause we just saw Tim Burchett on Benny Johnson's podcast talk about, uh, Stephen Miller called him and was like, "Hey, I'm getting blocked," like physically blocked from access to a lot of this stuff. And, you know, that's very concerning. I, I would say Stephen Miller is an alpha dog. He's a pit bull. And as a fellow alpha, I do appreciate his-

   22. JRJoe Rogan27:43

       That's a silly thing to say.

   23. DGDavid Grusch27:44

       His ... Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan27:44

       You know that, right? [laughs]

   25. DGDavid Grusch27:45

       What?

   26. JRJoe Rogan27:46

       A fellow alpha.

   27. DGDavid Grusch27:47

       Fellow alpha. [laughs]

   28. JRJoe Rogan27:50

       It opens yourself up to, like, tremendous amounts of ridicule.

   29. DGDavid Grusch27:53

       Yeah, I know, I know.

   30. JRJoe Rogan27:54

       Yeah. It's just-
9. 45:05 – 50:55

   What disclosure must include: evidence, amnesty, and contractor fraud liability

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:05

      So I'm sure you're aware of Hal Puthoff when he was, uh, tasked by the Bush administration along with-

   2. DGDavid Grusch45:11

      Yeah

   3. JRJoe Rogan45:11

      ... a bunch of other thinkers to try to come up with pros and cons for disclosure.

   4. DGDavid Grusch45:15

      Yeah. I knew some other people in that meeting, and I verified that meeting took place. And even, even AARO admitted in their volume one report, which was horrible, that's a long story, painful, uh, that it, it, it took place, but it was just a hypothetical scenario at a, a federally funded research and development center in Northern Virginia. I'm like-

   5. JRJoe Rogan45:34

      What year was this?

   6. DGDavid Grusch45:35

      2004. It was like November of 2004. And it's like, but why was it hypothetical if it's not real? [laughs] Nobody explains that. And obviously the story is, you know, Steve Hadley, who was the national security advisor, uh, sponsored it. You know, I, I believe Hadley denies it, but you know, who knows if Steve would, uh, you know, tell the truth on that just because of, uh, the sensitivity, so.

   7. JRJoe Rogan45:58

      And so for people that don't know what happened, supposedly they brought in a bunch of different thought leaders and they gave them, uh, a pro and a con side. Like what would be-

   8. DGDavid Grusch46:08

      Yes

   9. JRJoe Rogan46:08

      ... negatively affected by disclosure, what would be positively affected by disclosure, and attach a numerical value to each thing.

   10. DGDavid Grusch46:15

       Correct. They had like a computer system there that like tabulated everything, from what I know talking to other attendees, so.

   11. JRJoe Rogan46:21

       And virtually every one of them had more negative than positive. And so the-

   12. DGDavid Grusch46:26

       Yes

   13. JRJoe Rogan46:26

       ... decision was made to not disclose.

   14. DGDavid Grusch46:29

       Well, yeah. And in the main decision, if I remember correctly, was the federal contracts fraud. Well, that could be debated in, you know, the Supreme Court. But, uh, they realized a lot of... And so this is another issue of disclosure. Besides the ontological th- shock and people can't handling it, and then like-

   15. JRJoe Rogan46:46

       Misappropriation of funds

   16. DGDavid Grusch46:47

       ... y- yeah, and misappropriation of funds and all that. It's, oh, so these set of contractors got sole source contracts and exclusive access to this for internal research and development, where they figure out something and then sell it back to the government, et cetera, for all these decades. Well, what about my mid-level small business and my contractor and blah, blah, blah? And so you're gonna... They were afraid that you would see legal challenges going to the Supreme Court in violation of what they call the DFARS, right? The Defense Federal Acquisition Regulations.

   17. JRJoe Rogan47:16

       Right.

   18. DGDavid Grusch47:16

       And the, the government would be liable for who fucking knows, billions of dollars worth of monies that they spent on this to these contractor partners that got in back in the day. And like, "Well, we're not exposing any more people. We're locking it down," in what they call a J&A, justification and approval for a sole source contract. This is a reas- national security. Like we can't expose any more people to this. And of course, that also causes a brain drain and group think and, and actually hurts the defense, uh, industrial base. But that was the main reason. It wasn't, oh, uh, you know, upcoming millennials that are turning 18 can't handle it. It was like, yeah, we're, we're, we're, we're kind of culpable in kind of a fucked up, uh, contractual relationship. And, and that's gonna be something that the, the Trump administration's gonna have to deal with, is like well how do I reorient the defense in- i- industrial base? I mean, this could trigger a golden era of innovation in America. More people get to play. You overtly can take the basic information that's not sensitive, um, and put it into academia, right? So you have undergraduate, graduate, postdoctoral programs. And you actually b- create this like more educated workforce to actually benefit national security. But, and, and China doesn't have this issue. They're, they're pulling people from, pick a university in China, Nanjing, whatever university, and they're sucking them into these programs. And, but in America, we don't have that kind of permissive totalitarian environment, so we're lagging behind.

   19. JRJoe Rogan48:43

       Well, in China they probably don't have the issue with-

   20. DGDavid Grusch48:45

       Yeah

   21. JRJoe Rogan48:45

       ... misappropriation of funds and lying to Congress.

   22. DGDavid Grusch48:47

       No. CCP, baby.

   23. JRJoe Rogan48:48

       Right.

   24. DGDavid Grusch48:49

       You know, do whatever you want.

   25. JRJoe Rogan48:49

       Yeah, they do whatever they want.

   26. DGDavid Grusch48:50

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan48:50

       So they don't have to worry about liability.

   28. DGDavid Grusch48:52

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan48:53

       So this is one of the things that came up in that film Age of Disclosure.

   30. DGDavid Grusch48:56

       That's right.
10. 50:55 – 55:52

    What UAP are and how they might work: plasmoid orbs, MHD, and craft ‘taxonomy’

    1. JRJoe Rogan50:55

       Let's break down-

    2. DGDavid Grusch50:56

       Yeah

    3. JRJoe Rogan50:56

       ... what you know-

    4. DGDavid Grusch50:57

       Yeah

    5. JRJoe Rogan50:57

       ... and what you can say.

    6. DGDavid Grusch50:59

       Yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan51:00

       What are these things, and what are they capable of?

    8. DGDavid Grusch51:04

       So, uh, w- there's, like, physical and non-physical, call it UAP and intelligence we're likely dealing with. So for example, the orbs, could that be sentient plasmoid? Possibly.

    9. JRJoe Rogan51:19

       Sentient plasmoid.

    10. DGDavid Grusch51:20

        Yeah, so.

    11. JRJoe Rogan51:20

        So plasma that has consciousness.

    12. DGDavid Grusch51:22

        Yeah. In some way, and that could be like you're seeing the other side of some sort of wormhole, and it's some other intelligence shooting this, like, I'll call it, like, plasmoidic probe into, you know, our existence. I mean, there's a, this is of course a theoretical framework, and once again, I don't have a PhD in astrophysics.

    13. JRJoe Rogan51:37

        But it's theoretical that there is a life form that is a plasma-based life form.

    14. DGDavid Grusch51:42

        And there's already papers on the open internet about this. A couple years ago, oh, what's the title of the, the paper? Uh, they wr- they wrote about this possibility. So this is a, um, academic assessment of a possibility of the orbs. Now, could the orbs actually be physical craft, but they have a sheath of plasma around it? Well, interestingly enough, and AAWSAP did a defense intelligence reference document on magnetohydrodynamic propulsion, um, which if you remember the hu- the movie The Hunt for Red October-

    15. JRJoe Rogan52:14

        Mm-hmm

    16. DGDavid Grusch52:14

        ... that's the caterpillar drive-

    17. JRJoe Rogan52:16

        Mm

    18. DGDavid Grusch52:16

        ... on the Russian submarine, you know, back in the day. Uh, and of course, uh, with MHD you can also do it... You have to use a conductive fluid, um, either salt, seawater that has salt in it, or, uh, you could do it in the air, but you have to create a plasma, and you steer the plasma with, it's called the Lorentz force. It's, it's basically of a perpendicular magnetic field, a large amount of electro- electricity, and you can basically through the Lorentz force, which is like ionic propulsion sorta, um, uh, control it in the, in the atmosphere as well. And you can, you know, read papers on that in IEEE a- and other stuff like that. And so one of the byproducts of an air-breathing MHD system is plasma around it. So depending on the size of the orb, um, it is conceivable that there's a physical craft behind it as well, just by, as an artifact of the propulsion system. Uh, once again, that's a, a theory. I'm sure the program knows, and that will be communicated at a later date, but, like, you know, that's, yeah.

    19. JRJoe Rogan53:15

        So this theory about-

    20. DGDavid Grusch53:18

        Yeah

    21. JRJoe Rogan53:18

        ... sentient plasma.

    22. DGDavid Grusch53:19

        Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan53:20

        Is it the idea that we have a very narrow-minded view of what life can be?

    24. DGDavid Grusch53:27

        Yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan53:27

        And that life as it evolved in other places, in other parts of the universe-

    26. DGDavid Grusch53:32

        Went non-corporeal at some point. Like, the, the meat suit sucks. We're gonna-

    27. JRJoe Rogan53:36

        Right

    28. DGDavid Grusch53:36

        ... be an energetic-

    29. JRJoe Rogan53:37

        Like, this is-

    30. DGDavid Grusch53:38

        Yeah
11. 55:52 – 1:06:22

    Biologics claim: Grusch says he saw video of non-human cadavers from a retrieval

    1. JRJoe Rogan55:52

       Now, d- is there a theory or is there information based on where these things are from, and that they're different ones are from different places?

    2. DGDavid Grusch56:01

       There is, but I never got access to that. And even if the information was ... 'Cause, uh, w- once again, how would you, like, um, confirm that as a s- skeptical former, uh, human intelligence officer? You have some sort of NHI communicating to you, "Oh, I'm from star system X, Y, and Z."

    3. JRJoe Rogan56:21

       Right.

    4. DGDavid Grusch56:21

       Cool. Is that denial and deception, you know, activities? Are you misdirecting?

    5. JRJoe Rogan56:26

       Right.

    6. DGDavid Grusch56:26

       You're from somewhere else. So, uh, even if they said they told us, how would you verify that? I mean, there's certainly obviously ways and ... But some of it seems, once again, extraterrestrial is part of the pie here, right? There's a, you know, there's ultra-terrestrial and other things, and I-- it does seem like a lot of it's been here for a while. And also seems so similar to us that I have questions. And once again, this isn't rhetorical. I don't know the answer. It's like, well, is this bioengineered? Is this, uh, a break from our tree? Is this, um, some sort of other technology, uh, like chameleon-type technology, if you will? I don't, I don't know the answer to that. So I, I think that's, that's-

    7. JRJoe Rogan57:13

       What are the prevailing theories amongst the people that are working on this stuff?

    8. DGDavid Grusch57:17

       Yeah. So-

    9. JRJoe Rogan57:18

       Like, do they have answers or do they just have theories?

    10. DGDavid Grusch57:21

        I am not certain of that 'cause I do not have that level of knowledge. And as the government rolls that out, I'm happy to, you know, parse that with the American people in public and kind of explain my opinion on things as gaps in information for myself is filled in. 'Cause I'm not omnipotent. I didn't have full access, and I only know what I know, and that's why I've, I've treated this with such reverence because even me going public, I'm like, "Fuck, I don't know what this is gonna trigger." Besides my own personal safety, which clearly I was under duress and, and I had to even resign my Air Force commission, didn't even fully retire, and I'm trying to get that fixed. I, you know, filed something with, uh, the Air Force board a year ago so I can actually retire and have my benefits 'cause I, you know, I missed my promotion to lieutenant colonel and other stuff. But, um, I digress. But, uh, certainly there is such similarity that there was a concern in, uh, from a genomic perspective, and there was work on that to compare genomes. Unfortunately, I don't know the answer to that and what they found out. I'm sure it'll come out.

    11. JRJoe Rogan58:26

        Work to compare genomes from biological samples?

    12. DGDavid Grusch58:29

        Uh, yeah, dead cadavers. Yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan58:31

        So that's real.

    14. DGDavid Grusch58:33

        Oh, 100%, yeah.

    15. JRJoe Rogan58:34

        So there are-

    16. DGDavid Grusch58:35

        Oh, yeah. I know that for sure

    17. JRJoe Rogan58:36

        ... dead ... You, how do you know that for sure?

    18. DGDavid Grusch58:38

        I got to see the audiovisual on that stuff.

    19. JRJoe Rogan58:40

        You got to see what?

    20. DGDavid Grusch58:42

        Yeah. So I gotta be a little vague only because I wanna protect the sources 'cause it, it may indicate a specific activity or operation, and these people were very patriotic and, um, they were just, uh, dead cadavers, uh, in, you know, on the ground because it was-

    21. JRJoe Rogan58:58

        You-

    22. DGDavid Grusch58:58

        ... a retrieval activity. Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan59:00

        You saw them physically or you saw video of them?

    24. DGDavid Grusch59:02

        Video.

    25. JRJoe Rogan59:03

        Video.

    26. DGDavid Grusch59:03

        Yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan59:04

        So you saw dead cadaver that was at a crash?

    28. DGDavid Grusch59:09

        Yes.

    29. JRJoe Rogan59:10

        So they filmed the crash, and they filmed these cadavers.

    30. DGDavid Grusch59:15

        Yeah.
12. 1:06:22 – 1:13:44

    Entity types and ‘Greek gods’: Nordics/tall whites, grays, and bioengineering speculation

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:06:22

       And then when you say Greek gods-

    2. DGDavid Grusch1:06:24

       Yeah

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:06:24

       ... like, did these, these creatures actually look like something special? Like, not just like a, a regular person. You said beautiful.

    4. DGDavid Grusch1:06:32

       Yeah, just very oddly ... I, it's ... And it's been a while, and ... But I'm just trying to visualize in my mind. It was just very, very beautiful. It was just ... It's what I remember.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:06:40

       Were they wearing an outfit?

    6. DGDavid Grusch1:06:42

       Uh, it looked like it, like some kind of form-fitting thing, but I didn't get a good look at it, unfortunately.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:06:46

       Like spandex?

    8. DGDavid Grusch1:06:47

       I don't know. I didn't get a good look at it, honestly.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:06:49

       You didn't?

    10. DGDavid Grusch1:06:50

        So. No. I mean, it was like a, a pan, so.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:06:52

        Okay.

    12. DGDavid Grusch1:06:52

        Yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:06:52

        So they didn't even focus on the bodies?

    14. DGDavid Grusch1:06:54

        No.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:06:54

        They just like, "Oh, there's a body lying on the ground."

    16. DGDavid Grusch1:06:56

        No.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:06:56

        "Let's keep moving."

    18. DGDavid Grusch1:06:56

        'Cause it ... There ... You know, people had a job to do.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:06:59

        Right.

    20. DGDavid Grusch1:06:59

        So.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:06:59

        Did you worry with that-

    22. DGDavid Grusch1:07:00

        Yeah

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:07:00

        ... that that's a PSYOP, that you're being shown something that's horseshit?

    24. DGDavid Grusch1:07:03

        Well, like I said, I was very careful with that and confirmed it through other sources and methods to make sure it wasn't some sort of hangout from some government element trying to sway me one way-

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:07:13

        Got it

    26. DGDavid Grusch1:07:14

        ... or the other, and yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:07:15

        So you independently verified that there was an event?

    28. DGDavid Grusch1:07:18

        Yeah. I did.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:07:19

        Okay. And then there's footage of this event. And in this footage of this event, how many bodies were there?

    30. DGDavid Grusch1:07:24

        I think three or four is what I saw. I don't know what the total was, but-
13. 1:13:44 – 1:21:39

    Reptilians and conflict narrative: NHI vs NHI, armed engagements, and crash causes

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:13:44

       So tell me more about these reptilians that your friend encountered. They were alive.

    2. DGDavid Grusch1:13:49

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:13:49

       So they were alive post-crash?

    4. DGDavid Grusch1:13:52

       Yes.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:13:53

       Why do these things keep fucking crashing?

    6. DGDavid Grusch1:13:55

       So some of it is, um, NHI versus NHI.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:14:01

       What?

    8. DGDavid Grusch1:14:01

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:14:02

       They war in the sky. Isn't that-

    10. DGDavid Grusch1:14:04

        Yeah

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:14:05

        ... in the...

    12. DGDavid Grusch1:14:05

        You think it's like, wouldn't they get along? They're so advanced.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:14:08

        Yeah.

    14. DGDavid Grusch1:14:08

        But, uh, the... We have records of them fucking around with each other, so.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:14:12

        Is that in the Mahabharata or the Bhagavad Gita? There's-

    16. DGDavid Grusch1:14:15

        I don't know

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:14:16

        ... there's, like, talk about w- sky wars in ancient Hindu texts.

    18. DGDavid Grusch1:14:19

        In, in Vedic... Oh, yeah, in the Vedic texts.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:14:21

        Yes.

    20. DGDavid Grusch1:14:21

        The blue people. And, uh, I know that's why you asked blue. I don't recall them being that blue, but, you know.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:14:28

        Right.

    22. DGDavid Grusch1:14:28

        I got a short little look, unlike-

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:14:29

        Maybe when they're alive they're darker

    24. DGDavid Grusch1:14:30

        ... 10 seconds. [laughs] Well, y- it... That is true. There's, like, a post-mortem change in their affect.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:14:37

        Sure, like people.

    26. DGDavid Grusch1:14:38

        Yeah. It-

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:14:38

        That's what happens with people

    28. DGDavid Grusch1:14:38

        ... that, that is true. 'Cause, you know, as they str- were struggling and then died, obviously their affect changed and, you know, weird shit, so.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:14:46

        Now, this friend that encountered re- First of all, the... We'll, we'll go to the, the Greek god people first.

    30. DGDavid Grusch1:14:52

        Yeah.
14. 1:21:39 – 1:24:31

    Nukes and the phenomenon: archival astronomy plates and heightened activity after tests

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:21:39

       You're aware of those, um, uh, the, it was, uh, what, what was it, Jamie? Was it, um, a telescope that they were t- they y- they were taking photographs of the stars, and they were doing it with, uh... Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, the, all the- Right ... dots popped up thing that they- Yes ... yeah, I guess that's, like, two or three weeks ago. Right. We talked about that a couple weeks ago. Yeah. It was an observatory, and the observatory has these old plates of, uh, images that they took of the sky.

    2. DGDavid Grusch1:22:07

       Oh, is this B- Beatrice's work?

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:22:09

       Yes.

    4. DGDavid Grusch1:22:10

       The Vasco?

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:22:11

       Yes.

    6. DGDavid Grusch1:22:11

       Um, yeah, I read it. Very interesting.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:22:13

       Yes.

    8. DGDavid Grusch1:22:14

       And, um-

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:22:14

       That it-

    10. DGDavid Grusch1:22:14

        ... it's hard to make an exact conclusion if, i- if it's UAP, but it's-

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:22:19

        Right

    12. DGDavid Grusch1:22:19

        ... really great original scholarship-

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:22:21

        It is awesome

    14. DGDavid Grusch1:22:21

        ... and I applaud her for, for doing that.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:22:22

        But there-

    16. DGDavid Grusch1:22:23

        Yeah

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:22:23

        ... appeared to be moving, uh, reflective things that were outside of our atmosphere that they were taking images of. They, they were not static. They were not stars.

    18. DGDavid Grusch1:22:34

        Pre-Sputnik, too. That was the important thing.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:22:35

        Yes, pre-Sputnik. Very important because-

    20. DGDavid Grusch1:22:37

        Yeah

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:22:37

        ... there, there was no satellites at the time. This was images that they took of the sky-

    22. DGDavid Grusch1:22:41

        Yeah

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:22:41

        ... that showed things that were reflective, that seemed to be metallic, allegedly.

    24. DGDavid Grusch1:22:46

        And if I remember her paper correctly, and with her co-authors, it also, there were cluster concentrations over sensitive nuclear facilities and nuclear testing. Um, [lips smack] uh, d- uh, chron- chronological temporal correlation as well, so.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:23:01

        So data shows unidentified lights in archival astronomy images were 68% more likely to be imaged 24 hours after a nuclear weapons test.

    26. DGDavid Grusch1:23:10

        Yeah, like I was saying. Yep.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:23:11

        Right. So this is chronologically, like, we have these nuclear weapons tests, including these high altitude detonations like Ope- Operation Starfish Prime.

    28. DGDavid Grusch1:23:20

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:23:20

        We detonate these things, and then all of a sudden these crafts start showing up like, "Hey, what are these fucking crazy monkeys up to?"

    30. DGDavid Grusch1:23:29

        It does seem like there was a heightened amount of activity once we started testing nuclear weapons.
15. 1:24:31 – 2:18:51

    Ancient mysteries and religion: Egypt, megaliths, Book of Enoch/Ezekiel, and ‘demons’ debate

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:24:31

       Are you aware of the labyrinth at, at Hawara in Egypt?

    2. DGDavid Grusch1:24:35

       [lips smack] No. What is that?

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:24:38

       Okay. So-

    4. DGDavid Grusch1:24:39

       Is that the one where there's a metallic object that they-

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:24:41

       Yes

    6. DGDavid Grusch1:24:41

       ... they've, they... But, but, uh, what's-his-face won't let people go in it from the abduction?

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:24:45

       Well-

    8. DGDavid Grusch1:24:45

       Yeah

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:24:45

       ... it's, it's complicated.

    10. DGDavid Grusch1:24:47

        Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:24:47

        It's a little more complicated than won't let them, but there's definitely resistance to it. So these labyrinths, this, this incredible compound that's underground was documented by Herodotus, and he said it was-

    12. DGDavid Grusch1:24:58

        Okay

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:24:58

        ... greater than Giza. He said it was much more spectacular construction.

    14. DGDavid Grusch1:25:02

        Wow.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:25:03

        So now they know from ground-penetrating radar that these, these cavities in the ground, these symmetrical rooms exist.

    16. DGDavid Grusch1:25:11

        Mm-hmm.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:25:11

        They know where they are, and they know why they're flooded. So they are flooded because during the 1960s they built a dam to divert water for agriculture.

    18. DGDavid Grusch1:25:21

        Mm.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:25:21

        And when they did, they changed the water table, and it flooded this labyrinth area.

    20. DGDavid Grusch1:25:25

        Yeah.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:25:25

        And when they used this ground-penent- penetrating radar and, um, I think it's radio tomography and a bunch of the different ways of-

    22. DGDavid Grusch1:25:33

        Yeah

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:25:33

        ... one of the things they found was a 40-meter-long metallic object that's in some sort of, uh... Is it, is it in an atrium? Like, it's in some sort of a large room

    24. DGDavid Grusch1:25:47

        Yeah, I've heard of ... I've seen a video about this

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:25:49

        Yeah

    26. DGDavid Grusch1:25:49

        So you're, you're recalling some stuff I've seen just casually online

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:25:52

        Like just-

    28. DGDavid Grusch1:25:53

        Yeah

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:25:53

        ... imagine if that's what that is. If-

    30. DGDavid Grusch1:25:57

        It's like-
16. 2:18:51 – 2:21:00

    Underwater bases and government opacity: ‘multiple city blocks’ in the ocean, Baltic anomaly

    1. JRJoe Rogan2:18:51

       Is there a consensus as to their origin? Because I know that... Or, or is it, do they vary wildly? Like, there's a-

    2. DGDavid Grusch2:18:59

       I, I think there is-

    3. JRJoe Rogan2:18:59

       Like Tim Goodshire has talked about the ocean.

    4. DGDavid Grusch2:19:01

       There is. Yes. The, we know a lot about that. And-

    5. JRJoe Rogan2:19:05

       What do we know about that?

    6. DGDavid Grusch2:19:05

       Well, let me be careful 'cause it gets into sensitive Navy underwater things. Um, uh, there's clearly some sort of base of operations in certain locations. Um, it's large. Don't know when it got there. So it's-

    7. JRJoe Rogan2:19:21

       It's large.

    8. DGDavid Grusch2:19:22

       Large. Like multiple city blocks type stuff. Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan2:19:25

       So there's multiple city blocks somewhere in the bottom of the ocean.

    10. DGDavid Grusch2:19:29

        Yeah. And it's like... Yeah. Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan2:19:31

        Do you know what the, about the Baltic Sea anomaly?

    12. DGDavid Grusch2:19:33

        Yeah. [laughs] Well, the-

    13. JRJoe Rogan2:19:34

        Ooh.

    14. DGDavid Grusch2:19:34

        Yeah. The-

    15. JRJoe Rogan2:19:35

        You laugh.

    16. DGDavid Grusch2:19:36

        Yeah. The-

    17. JRJoe Rogan2:19:36

        What's going on with that?

    18. DGDavid Grusch2:19:37

        There's, there's some interesting stuff there. And-

    19. JRJoe Rogan2:19:39

        [laughs]

    20. DGDavid Grusch2:19:39

        ... um, once again, I will allow-

    21. JRJoe Rogan2:19:41

        That looks like an aluminum coffin

    22. DGDavid Grusch2:19:42

        ... the federal government to deal with that one and our allies and adversaries. So.

    23. JRJoe Rogan2:19:45

        Okay.

    24. DGDavid Grusch2:19:45

        Yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan2:19:46

        Um, but you did say that there's-

    26. DGDavid Grusch2:19:48

        Yeah

    27. JRJoe Rogan2:19:48

        ... multiple city blocks under the ocean.

    28. DGDavid Grusch2:19:51

        Yeah. I will tell you, underwater people I know, um, that come from that community, they're, they're always like, "You know the movie The Abyss, Dave?" It's kind of a docudrama. And I'm like, "Holy fuck," you know, that movie, you know, with Ed Harris back in '89. And so that kind of gives you a sense in a pop-sci kind of way for people to visualize there is large shit down there. And it's like the origin is indeterminate. I'm sure we know a little bit more. I'm not privy to that. And, and the way we know things and track th- that gets into sensitive national security stuff.

    29. JRJoe Rogan2:20:26

        Mm-hmm.

    30. DGDavid Grusch2:20:27

        And, um, you know, the government may have to reveal some of that through some sort of acknowledgement strategy. But, uh-
17. 2:21:00 – 2:30:25

    PSYOP accusations and closing outlook: AI as an unintended disclosure pathway, timing, and stakes

    1. JRJoe Rogan2:21:00

       Um, one thing I wanted to talk to you about, 'cause it just recently started hitting the news, uh, or Twitter at least. Someone sent it to me. Um, this guy Matthew Brown saying that you, uh, tricked him in a PSYOP into revealing that there's b- you turned him into a whistleblower-

    2. DGDavid Grusch2:21:16

       Oh, my God

    3. JRJoe Rogan2:21:16

       ... do you know his story?

    4. DGDavid Grusch2:21:17

       I didn't even know Matt Brown until right before the 2024 hearing. I never met the guy while I was a, you know-

    5. JRJoe Rogan2:21:24

       I sent it to you, Jamie

    6. DGDavid Grusch2:21:24

       ... intel officer.

    7. JRJoe Rogan2:21:25

       I, I, I'd had to bring it up to you because a bunch of people said-

    8. DGDavid Grusch2:21:27

       Yeah, there was, like, some schizo stuff

    9. JRJoe Rogan2:21:28

       ... "Make sure you ask him about this."

    10. DGDavid Grusch2:21:29

        Oh, because I w- because I was at the Schriever war game, uh, high-level cell advisor that I, I somehow made fake stuff. And, and, and, and the, the briefing that, that Matt says he saw, I've never seen. I can't evaluate the contents of that. And, and I didn't make anything. Um, I've never made a hazing brief on this topic. I made some fun briefs just to fuck with some of my airmen back in the day. Um, some Star Trek related stuff and just for, you know-

    11. JRJoe Rogan2:21:58

        To, but you're aware-

    12. DGDavid Grusch2:21:59

        ... morale

    13. JRJoe Rogan2:21:59

        ... of this, right?

    14. DGDavid Grusch2:22:00

        But yeah.

    15. JRJoe Rogan2:22:00

        So what is he, what is he alleging?

    16. DGDavid Grusch2:22:03

        He alleges inadvertent exposure. He was cleaning up the file system on a classified system in, I think it was, like, 2018 or something like that, and, you know, he found this briefing. Um, once again, I met Matt or talked to him for the first time in, like, 2024, well after I left, uh, the intelligence community, so I didn't even know he existed. And, um, unfortunately, I've never seen a briefing like that, so I can't evaluate the, the contents.

    17. JRJoe Rogan2:22:31

        Mm-hmm.

    18. DGDavid Grusch2:22:31

        So, um, so-

    19. JRJoe Rogan2:22:32

        Have you communicated with him after he said this?

    20. DGDavid Grusch2:22:35

        Oh, oh-

    21. JRJoe Rogan2:22:35

        That he s-

    22. DGDavid Grusch2:22:36

        Oh, oh, sure. Sure. Yeah. I mean, just to, in support, making sure he has resources and-

    23. JRJoe Rogan2:22:40

        No, but I mean after he said that you PSYOP'd him, have you communicated with him since then?

    24. DGDavid Grusch2:22:44

        Oh, he said that?

    25. JRJoe Rogan2:22:45

        Isn't that what it says?

    26. DGDavid Grusch2:22:46

        I think that might have been people saying that.

    27. JRJoe Rogan2:22:47

        Yeah, it says some- Other people saying? Yeah. It says, like- Okay ... in other words, yeah.

    28. DGDavid Grusch2:22:50

        That's news to me. Uh-

    29. JRJoe Rogan2:22:51

        So that makes sense

    30. DGDavid Grusch2:22:52

        ... I'll call Matt after. [laughs]

Episode duration: 2:30:25