JRE MMA Show #129 with Gordon Ryan & Mo Jassim

1. 0:01 – 2:44

   ADCC origins and why no-gi mattered in the late ’90s

   1. NANarrator0:01

      (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. NANarrator0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience. (rock music)

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. All right, what's happening?

   4. NANarrator0:14

      Not much.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Good to see you, good to see you. Mo, introduce yourself.

   6. MJMo Jassim0:17

      My name is Mo Jassim. I'm the head organizer of ADCC 2019. And-

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:21

      And for people who don't know what ADC, ADCC is, Abu Dhabi Combat Club. When, when was that founded? In 2000...

   8. NANarrator0:27

      No, 1998 was the-

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:29

      '98.

   10. NANarrator0:29

       ... inaugural one.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:30

       That was the first one.

   12. MJMo Jassim0:31

       Yeah, way back in the day.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       That's pretty wild when you think about like the UFC starting in '93 and that's where everybody really got excited about JuJitsu.

   14. NANarrator0:39

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       And then Abu Dhabi only five, five years later.

   16. MJMo Jassim0:42

       Yeah, because, I mean, the owner and creator-

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:44

       Pull this sucker right up-

   18. MJMo Jassim0:44

       Sorry.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:45

       ... to your face. And you see, it moves around.

   20. MJMo Jassim0:46

       Okay.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:46

       You can grab it. You don't have to-

   22. NANarrator0:48

       Hold on one second. Sorry.

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:49

       What's the matter?

   24. NANarrator0:50

       I'm not recording his mic on accident.

   25. JRJoe Rogan0:52

       Oh. Hmm.

   26. NANarrator0:53

       Wrong one. There you go.

   27. JRJoe Rogan0:55

       Start again.

   28. NANarrator0:56

       No, it's good.

   29. JRJoe Rogan0:57

       Did you record it at all?

   30. NANarrator0:58

       It's going now.
2. 2:44 – 3:58

   Gordon’s switch from gi to no-gi—and the mystery of Eddie Cummings

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:44

      Did you... You started in the Gi, right?

   2. GRGordon Ryan2:46

      I started in the Gi. The first, like, two and a half years was only in the Gi, and then I made a transition to No Gi.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:51

      When, when year did you make the transition?

   4. GRGordon Ryan2:53

      So I started in 2011. So 2014 is when I really started to make the transition, and then by, like, late '14, 2015, then it was, like, pretty much all No Gi because I didn't have any Gi training partners. Eddie Cummings, Gary, like all the competitors, uh, at Renzo's, um, at least Jon's students, were all No Gi guys.

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:13

      Eddie Cummings, has he vanished?

   6. GRGordon Ryan3:15

      I have no idea what happened to him. Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan3:16

      I went to his Instagram the other day to see what he was up to. It was-

   8. GRGordon Ryan3:19

      He posted, like, three years ago. Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan3:20

      Yeah.

   10. GRGordon Ryan3:20

       Yeah, he stopped training with us, and then he was training, uh, for a while at Unity, and then, uh, I haven't talked to him. I don't even know if he's still training. Like, he was... He had a PhD in physics, um, so I heard he, like, started teaching again. He's got, like, a, like, a normal job now. I've, I've-

   11. JRJoe Rogan3:33

       Wow.

   12. GRGordon Ryan3:33

       I have no idea. Um, so maybe he still trains, maybe he doesn't, but he definitely doesn't compete anymore, so.

   13. JRJoe Rogan3:38

       So weird. He was so talented.

   14. GRGordon Ryan3:40

       He was, he was. He, uh, he went in and was crushing EBIs and had really good, tough ADCC matches. He had that super close match against Tanquinho. Um, and then, uh, yeah, he just... Like, after the, after the EBI with, uh, with Geo, where he lost to Geo, he just, like, we didn't see him anymore after that.

3. 3:58 – 5:41

   Longevity, wear-and-tear, and why grapplers’ bodies break down

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:58

      Wow. Crazy. It's, but, you know, it's such a, such a wild sport, and it does so much damage to your body. You know, so many guys, I mean, everybody that I talk to years later, like, "Oh, I got two discs replaced in my neck. I got this going on."

   2. GRGordon Ryan4:13

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan4:13

      "I got that going on."

   4. GRGordon Ryan4:14

      My... 'Cause everything we do is concave shoulders, like, with the shoulders coming forward. I, like, can't lift mine. I can't do, like, anything overhead. I can't wash the back of my neck because my shoulders are just... I'm always inverting doing this. So, like, anything like this, I can do, but I can't bridge, like, trying to scrub my back of my head. I'm like... Can't get my shoulders back there. So it's just, like, all a mess. And I'm only 27, so-

   5. JRJoe Rogan4:32

      (laughs)

   6. GRGordon Ryan4:32

      ... once I'm 40, I'm gonna be fucked.

   7. JRJoe Rogan4:34

      But I think you could probably fix that.

   8. GRGordon Ryan4:37

      Yeah, I could. I'm just lazy. (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan4:38

      That's-

   10. GRGordon Ryan4:39

       I'm just like-

   11. JRJoe Rogan4:39

       You saying you're lazy is hilarious.

   12. GRGordon Ryan4:41

       I-

   13. JRJoe Rogan4:41

       That is hilarious.

   14. GRGordon Ryan4:42

       I'll... Every day I go to the, I go to watch, like, Jon teach, and I'm like, "Just sit up straight." And then I do it for, like, 30 seconds. I'm like, "My, my back is tired." And then I just-

   15. JRJoe Rogan4:50

       (laughs)

   16. GRGordon Ryan4:50

       ... like, end up sitting like this the whole class. My fucking head's, like, leaning forward. I'm like, "Oh my God." (sighs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan4:55

       Yeah, you gotta wonder, like, what... I mean, who's, who's been able to do it the longest? Like, what's the longest running, like, competitor?

   18. MJMo Jassim5:03

       I, I would say there's Andre Galvao.

   19. GRGordon Ryan5:06

       I mean, Andre, yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan5:06

       Actually, yeah.

   21. GRGordon Ryan5:06

       I would say Andre. 'Cause, I mean, he's competing, what, since he's 16, and he's 40.

   22. MJMo Jassim5:10

       He's been, he's been at the highest levels for 20 years, um, you know. I saw him in the early 2000s. There was a documentary called Arte Suave. He was a brown belt back then. This was, like, 2001, '02, or '03, and here he is.

   23. JRJoe Rogan5:25

       How old is Andre now?

   24. GRGordon Ryan5:27

       He's 40.

   25. MJMo Jassim5:27

       Got to be close to 40, right?

   26. GRGordon Ryan5:28

       I think he's 40. I think he'll be 40 for this ADCC.

   27. JRJoe Rogan5:30

       Is that his last one?

   28. GRGordon Ryan5:32

       Well, last-

   29. JRJoe Rogan5:32

       W-

   30. GRGordon Ryan5:32

       ... year was supposed to be his last one.
4. 5:41 – 10:15

   No-time-limit matches: purity vs entertainment (and early UFC parallels)

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:41

      When you do these matches, n- since you've been doing these no time limit match, like the Felipe match, which I think you really shine in those matches, but that's really for the cognoscente.

   2. GRGordon Ryan5:51

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:51

      You know, that's really for the hardcore people that wanna see-

   4. GRGordon Ryan5:54

      Yeah. It's not spectator friendly.

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:55

      Right.

   6. GRGordon Ryan5:56

      It's just to determine who's better at Jujitsu. But no time limit matches for spectators are just atrocious because...... who the fuck wants to watch four hours of jiu-jitsu? Like, most people don't wanna watch 10 minutes of jiu-jitsu.

   7. JRJoe Rogan6:06

      Right.

   8. GRGordon Ryan6:06

      So, who wants to watch, like, a two-hour match? Um, but they're important to have sometimes just to show who's the best, because you actually have to do jiu-jitsu and know how to do submissions. Well, not in the Felipe match because there wasn't a submission. But, um, (laughs) you have to, you have to be better at jiu-jitsu than the other guy. There's no stalling and playing tactics for 10 minutes and winning by advantage or two points. Uh, so they're, they have their place, but to build the sport to a spectator sport is not... No time limit's not the way.

   9. JRJoe Rogan6:34

      Well, it's, it's not the way for spectators, but it is the way, as you said, to determine who's the best. And I think that's supposedly what jiu-jitsu is all about. Really, the early days of the UFC, there was no time limits-

   10. GRGordon Ryan6:46

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:46

       ... because it was just like, who wins? And that, that's the purest form of any martial art. It's like, you know, as soon as you have rounds, then you have people gaming the system to try to win the round by sprinting in the last 30 seconds, really going hard or, you know, trying to figure out a way to manage your time. Well, you, you can't really do that if there's no time limit.

   12. GRGordon Ryan7:06

       Yeah, which I think that has a place too, like points and rounds-

   13. JRJoe Rogan7:08

       Sure.

   14. GRGordon Ryan7:08

       ... and stuff. Because then you have to, you have the whole tactical element which comes into play.

   15. JRJoe Rogan7:12

       Yeah.

   16. GRGordon Ryan7:12

       Um, but, uh, I think there's a place for both, for sure. But spectator, spectators definitely need a time limit. They wanna know, like, when this is gonna be over. Like, "What, tomorrow?"

   17. JRJoe Rogan7:20

       I think it would be fuckin' wild, though, if all UFC fights had no time limit in this day and age. I mean, they, they would be brutal.

   18. GRGordon Ryan7:27

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan7:27

       They'd be-

   20. MJMo Jassim7:27

       Didn't, uh, Hoyce have, like, an hour and something match with Kimo, I, I believe? Like, in one of the early-

   21. JRJoe Rogan7:32

       I don't think it was that long. No.

   22. MJMo Jassim7:33

       It was, like, something ridiculous, right?

   23. JRJoe Rogan7:34

       It was, it was pretty long, but only... I don't think it was that long.

   24. MJMo Jassim7:38

       Okay.

   25. JRJoe Rogan7:38

       I don't... Find that, find out how long the Hoyce-Kimo match was. I think it just seemed long because it was so crazy and how long-

   26. GRGordon Ryan7:45

       Because he was finishing everyone so fast.

   27. JRJoe Rogan7:47

       Yeah.

   28. GRGordon Ryan7:47

       And then he was, goes a-, against Kimo and it was a little bit longer.

   29. JRJoe Rogan7:50

       Tom Erickson had a match with Murilo Bustamante back in the day in one of them weird, you know, like, uh, offshoots. One of those little small companies that tried to make a big, uh, m- like, an MMA event. I think there was a no-glove event too. It was back in those days. And I think that match went, like, an hour.

   30. MJMo Jassim8:11

       Wow.
5. 10:15 – 13:31

   Why jiu-jitsu uniquely enables smaller athletes to beat bigger ones

   1. JRJoe Rogan10:15

      It's, it's really, uh, amazing, uh, how one martial art was... If you look at all the other martial arts, every, uh, you know, everybody wanted to be like Bruce Lee, the small guy who could beat everybody up. But in, in reality the bigger people win. Like, in, in any kind of fight where, involving striking and-

   2. GRGordon Ryan10:34

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan10:34

      ... size and speed. It's just such a giant advantage.

   4. GRGordon Ryan10:37

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan10:37

      Jiu-jitsu's really the only thing where the smaller person actually can dominate a bigger person.

   6. GRGordon Ryan10:43

      Yeah.

   7. MJMo Jassim10:43

      I, I agree 100%. I was actually thinking about this recently. I don't know any other combat sport where you could have two elite level athletes and a 60, 70-pound weight advantage and the smaller guy wins consistently.

   8. JRJoe Rogan10:55

      Right, in absolutes. Yeah.

   9. MJMo Jassim10:56

      I mean, look at, what's his name? Um, we actually... So we're doing the hall of fame for this ADCC, the inaugural one, so I had to look up the stats. The highest submission rate in ADCC is Marcelo Garcia.

   10. JRJoe Rogan11:06

       Right.

   11. MJMo Jassim11:07

       89%.

   12. GRGordon Ryan11:08

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan11:08

       That's pretty crazy.

   14. MJMo Jassim11:09

       And he was submitting Rico Rodriguez, guy's 100-

   15. JRJoe Rogan11:12

       Right.

   16. MJMo Jassim11:12

       ... pounds heavier than him and-

   17. JRJoe Rogan11:13

       Rico Rodriguez, who was a UFC heavyweight champion at one point, and he heel hooked him.

   18. MJMo Jassim11:17

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan11:17

       And remember, that was after he took Rico's back and then Rico slammed him. Remember? He, like, threw all his body weight back.

   20. GRGordon Ryan11:23

       Yeah, and he got pissed-

   21. JRJoe Rogan11:23

       Yeah.

   22. GRGordon Ryan11:23

       ... and then he said, "Let me, let me do a fuckin' heel hook."

   23. JRJoe Rogan11:25

       Yeah.

   24. MJMo Jassim11:26

       But it, it... That was illegal 'cause in ADCC you're allowed to slam only if you're in the threat of a submission. So, Marcelo was on his back with a seatbelt grip.

   25. JRJoe Rogan11:33

       Mm-hmm.

   26. MJMo Jassim11:34

       If he had switched to a rear naked, it would've been perfectly legal. But he just slammed him, um, flat-lined him.

   27. JRJoe Rogan11:40

       Yeah, it was also like, come on, man.

   28. MJMo Jassim11:42

       Yeah (laughs) .

   29. JRJoe Rogan11:43

       Guy's 160 pounds.

   30. MJMo Jassim11:46

       (laughs)
6. 13:31 – 17:52

   ADCC legends: Marcelo Garcia’s evolution, body mechanics, and innovation

   1. JRJoe Rogan13:31

      He was the first guy I ever saw do a North South choke. And a lot of people thought that, that, "Oh, you can't... You can only do that if you're strong." Like, that's like a goon move, that he's just like squeezing his head.

   2. GRGordon Ryan13:40

      Yeah, but no.

   3. JRJoe Rogan13:41

      And then people realized... And then Marcelo started pulling it off, and people were like, "Oh, that's a real move."

   4. GRGordon Ryan13:45

      That was, that was an interesting about Marcelo for me, is he would always reinvent himself every ADCC. So 2005, he's hitting everyone with his X guard sweeps, so that's what everyone's expecting. 2007 comes, he's just finishing everyone with North South chokes, uh-

   5. JRJoe Rogan14:00

      I saw his debut in 2003. I was there live.

   6. GRGordon Ryan14:03

      Oh, really? That's right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan14:03

      In Sao Paolo.

   8. GRGordon Ryan14:04

      I believe it.

   9. JRJoe Rogan14:04

      Yeah, that was wild, 'cause I was there with Eddie when Eddie was, uh, competing, when Eddie beat Royler. And, uh, when he choked out Xiao Lin, everybody was like, "Holy fuck." And it was the way he did it, the speed in which he arm dragged, and took his back, and then the scramble, secures the choke, and then finishes it, like, as they're scrambling, and just puts him to sleep.

   10. GRGordon Ryan14:24

       You know what the crazy thing too is? Uh, 2003, Marcelo got second in the trials, so he was a last minute replacement.

   11. JRJoe Rogan14:31

       Crazy.

   12. GRGordon Ryan14:32

       And, like, no one really knew who he was, and then it's like, Xiao Lin just got put to sleep, and then he even tapped out Mike Van Arsdale in that-

   13. JRJoe Rogan14:39

       He was a Fabio Gurgel student, right?

   14. GRGordon Ryan14:42

       Correct.

   15. JRJoe Rogan14:42

       And he wasn't even... R- like, he, he did a lot more Gi than he did No Gi, right?

   16. GRGordon Ryan14:46

       Yeah, that's what he was known for. And then he just ended up being... Like, for me personally, the two greatest champions in ADCC, number one, I'd say Galvao, but there's an art... Some people believe it's Marcelo. Um, so he was, he was definitely a pioneer.

   17. JRJoe Rogan15:00

       Well, Marcelo finished more people.

   18. GRGordon Ryan15:02

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan15:02

       So-

   20. GRGordon Ryan15:02

       It depends on what the criteria is.

   21. JRJoe Rogan15:03

       Yeah.

   22. GRGordon Ryan15:04

       Like, Andre has more medals, but I think that the way Marcelo won was far more impressive.

   23. JRJoe Rogan15:08

       Yes.

   24. GRGordon Ryan15:09

       And he's got a lot more division wins. Like, he's got, he's got a way better, uh... He's had way more fights than Andre overall, uh, in, in ADCC. Like, he's did the division every year 'cause he never won the absolute. Whereas Andre just did the division and then the absolute. He lost his first two, and then he double golded, and then he's just been doing super fights since 2013. So he hasn't had that many fights compared to Marcelo.

   25. JRJoe Rogan15:30

       Marcelo was built so weird too, 'cause he had these giant ass tree trunk legs-

   26. GRGordon Ryan15:35

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan15:35

       ... and this, like, normal sized upper body.

   28. GRGordon Ryan15:37

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan15:38

       Just so weird, you know?

   30. GRGordon Ryan15:39

       One of the head judges trained with him for a week, and he came to Abu Dhabi and he was telling me, it's like the weirdest body type he's ever felt. He has, like, these tree trunk legs-
7. 17:52 – 19:38

   ADCC growth story: Vegas, record ticket sales, and Gordon’s star power

   1. JRJoe Rogan17:52

      Yeah, it's amazing. So, um, Abu Dhabi is... This is an enormous event, right? And this is happening in Vegas.

   2. GRGordon Ryan17:59

      Yes. Uh, so, like, uh, the first...

   3. MJMo Jassim18:02

      ... major event I did for ADCC was 2019. For me, personally, my target, I fought the best ADCC ever was 2005, the one in Long Beach. Um, that was my target. It had 2800 people there. You had a bunch of MMA guys. You had GSP, Diego Sanchez-

   4. JRJoe Rogan18:18

      Mm-hmm.

   5. MJMo Jassim18:18

      ... Gilbert Melendez-

   6. JRJoe Rogan18:19

      Yeah, I was there for that.

   7. MJMo Jassim18:20

      ... Jake Shields. Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan18:21

      Jon Jock Machado had that match against, uh-

   9. MJMo Jassim18:23

      Dean Lister.

   10. JRJoe Rogan18:24

       Dean Lister, that's right.

   11. MJMo Jassim18:25

       Yeah, so I was like, "I gotta beat this one." Um, this was the best one. So 2019 comes, um, we broke the record. We had 4,000. It was a big success. Then comes this one, and we started selling tickets on Black Friday. So at 10:00 AM, I wake up at like 10:45, and I had like six missed calls from the Thomas & Mack, which is where the event's gonna be. I'm like, "Oh, shit. Something went wrong." And I answered the phone, I'm like, "What's going on?" He's like, "Do you know how many tickets you've sold?"

   12. JRJoe Rogan18:54

       (laughs)

   13. MJMo Jassim18:54

       I was like, "No." He's like, "You've sold 5,000 tickets in 45 minutes." So we sold more tickets in 45 minutes a year out than we had in 2019. And we sold every single premium ticket. In the first day, we sold over 7,000 tickets.

   14. JRJoe Rogan19:09

       That's incredible.

   15. MJMo Jassim19:10

       Yeah. So I was like-

   16. JRJoe Rogan19:10

       For jujitsu.

   17. MJMo Jassim19:11

       I mean-

   18. JRJoe Rogan19:12

       (laughs) That's wild.

   19. MJMo Jassim19:13

       We, we sold a million dollars in ticket sales for a grappling event-

   20. JRJoe Rogan19:16

       That's incredible.

   21. MJMo Jassim19:16

       ... in one day, so.

   22. JRJoe Rogan19:18

       That's incredible.

   23. MJMo Jassim19:18

       Yeah, so I miscalculated that one.

   24. JRJoe Rogan19:21

       Well, now you know.

   25. MJMo Jassim19:22

       Yeah. (laughs) It's a good problem to have.

   26. JRJoe Rogan19:23

       As long as you get this guy involved.

   27. GRGordon Ryan19:24

       Gotta charge more.

   28. MJMo Jassim19:25

       Yeah, I mean, I mean, definitely. I mean, having Gordon around's been a big boost, you know. The, that's the... I get into arguments about it all the time. I'm like, "Listen, you can hate the guy." You know, when, any time someone tells me they don't like Gordon, I'm like, "Okay." But there's definitely a benefit, uh ...

8. 19:38 – 22:26

   Social media, trash talk, and the pressure of being undefeated

   1. JRJoe Rogan19:38

      I had a conversation with Mark Zuckerberg about it. He's like, "Well, what do you think about his attitude?" I go, "That... Why do you think he's so fucking popular?" There's two reasons. One, 'cause he's the best, and then, two, 'cause he talks so much shit.

   2. GRGordon Ryan19:49

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan19:49

      Like, you don't think that's a smart move?

   4. GRGordon Ryan19:51

      The best is, uh, I'm like so shadow-banned on Instagram.

   5. JRJoe Rogan19:54

      (laughs)

   6. GRGordon Ryan19:54

      He goes to follow me. He follows my backup account. He doesn't f- he couldn't fi- he probably couldn't find my real account.

   7. JRJoe Rogan19:59

      Zuckerberg?

   8. GRGordon Ryan20:00

      Yeah, so Zuckerberg follows, like, my breakdown page.

   9. JRJoe Rogan20:02

      (laughs)

   10. GRGordon Ryan20:02

       The other one.

   11. JRJoe Rogan20:03

       'Cause he can't find it.

   12. GRGordon Ryan20:03

       But he doesn't fucking follow my real page 'cause he can't find it.

   13. JRJoe Rogan20:06

       Like-

   14. GRGordon Ryan20:06

       I, like, I posted one day. I'm like, I, like, posted like he was following me and I tagged him, and I'm like, "Dude, fucking whitelist me, you fuck."

   15. JRJoe Rogan20:13

       (laughs)

   16. GRGordon Ryan20:13

       Like, I was so shadow-banned that he couldn't find my real account.

   17. JRJoe Rogan20:16

       (laughs)

   18. MJMo Jassim20:17

       (laughs)

   19. GRGordon Ryan20:17

       (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan20:18

       It's so funny because I think he wants martial arts to be very respectful and, you know, he trains in martial arts and he does MMA, and he, he really loves it. He loves the sport.

   21. GRGordon Ryan20:29

       Yeah. Does he?

   22. JRJoe Rogan20:29

       Yeah, and he loves you. Like, he thinks you're, like, extremely skilled. He loves watching you compete. He's like, "I just don't know."

   23. GRGordon Ryan20:36

       (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan20:36

       I'm like, "That's what's fun! It's part of the fun."

   25. GRGordon Ryan20:39

       But-

   26. JRJoe Rogan20:39

       He's like Americanizing martial arts.

   27. GRGordon Ryan20:41

       But, but it's good, though, because people see me on social media and they're like, they meet me in person, so their expectations are so low. They're like, "There's no way he could be worse than that."

   28. JRJoe Rogan20:49

       (laughs)

   29. GRGordon Ryan20:50

       So if I'm any better than I am on social media, they're like, "Oh, man. He's a great guy."

   30. JRJoe Rogan20:53

       (laughs) That's funny. That's so true. 'Cause you talk so much shit. But it's like wh- think about how many more eyeballs are on you f- to see these accomplishments. 'Cause if you were just quietly running around submitting all the best black belts in the world-
9. 22:26 – 32:07

   Danaher’s system: mental work, tape study themes, and coaching obsession

   1. JRJoe Rogan22:26

      You know, it- people don't know how crazy that is. But again, like, we were talking about Musumeci, you train seven days a week.

   2. GRGordon Ryan22:34

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan22:35

      That's, that's unheard of, too.

   4. GRGordon Ryan22:37

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan22:37

      You know, everybody wants to take days off. Everybody wants to relax. You know, there's, there's levels to everything. There's levels to your commitment. And it's also your association with Danaher, your amazing training partners, the, the lineage that you come from, but if you look at the, the success, it's just, the formula's there. I mean, s- you could see why you're so successful. It's not... There's no luck. It's not, like-

   6. GRGordon Ryan23:02

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan23:02

      ... just the craziest genetics ever. It's none of those things. It's just, it's consistent hard work, plus intelligence, plus technique, plus the great training partners. It's just...

   8. MJMo Jassim23:13

      I, I get that all the time. People ask me, "What makes Gordon so good?" I'm like, s- he's not the most explosive guy. There's guys bigger, faster, and stronger. For me, it's, he does train seven days a week, and he's just got a gift where he can see a position or any technique in jujitsu and break it down instantly. I've never seen someone who could just break it down to its most basic, you know, parts and rearrange it.

   9. JRJoe Rogan23:37

      Have you always had that kinda discipline?

   10. GRGordon Ryan23:40

       Uh, no. A big thing that improved my work ethic a lot, I mean, I was, I was always a hard worker, but when I saw Gary was training seven days a week and then I saw John, who, like, could barely walk, like, just teaching-... like, a class at Renzo's. Then he teaches, like, eight privates throughout the day, and then teaches again. Like, he would just teach, like, 8:00 AM at Renzo's in the city, and then he would teach 9:00, 10:00, 11:00, 12:00 privates. And then he would teach afternoon class, and then he would teach, like, 3:00, 4:00, 5:00, 6:00, 7:00, 8:00 PM privates seven days a week. And then, like, we'd get up and, like, go to walk and he, like, his hip, like, needs a hip replacement. He, like, can barely stand up. And I'm just like, "Man, if this guy can fucking do this, like, I gotta step my game up. Like, this is ridiculous." And he's been doing the same thing for 30 years, and it's just like, okay. Like, there's definitely something to this consistency that I should be, I should be taking notice of.

   11. JRJoe Rogan24:31

       It's with everything. It's with music-

   12. GRGordon Ryan24:33

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan24:33

       ... it's with comedy, it's with writers. Like, the, the people that can, like, sit down and do the work day in, day out, they lap everybody else.

   14. GRGordon Ryan24:41

       If he can just show up-

   15. JRJoe Rogan24:43

       Yeah.

   16. GRGordon Ryan24:43

       ... you're already ahead of like 90% of the people-

   17. JRJoe Rogan24:45

       Yeah, yeah.

   18. GRGordon Ryan24:45

       ... because most people are just inherently lazy.

   19. JRJoe Rogan24:47

       Yeah.

   20. GRGordon Ryan24:47

       So if you, it's like, if you just start doing jujitsu for 10 years, and even if you don't have a training program, you're just showing up every day and just training hard, even like an idiot, you're still-

   21. JRJoe Rogan24:57

       Yeah.

   22. GRGordon Ryan24:57

       ... gonna be ahead of most people because most people just don't even take training seriously. Like, me and Mo talk about this all the time. Like, this is your fucking job. Like, most people just treat it like a hobby. Like-

   23. JRJoe Rogan25:08

       Yeah.

   24. GRGordon Ryan25:08

       ... most, like, I had, I know hobbyists who train more than most black belt world champions.

   25. JRJoe Rogan25:12

       Hmm.

   26. GRGordon Ryan25:12

       Like, most black belt ADCC world champions train three, four times a week. Like, it's just like a hobby to them.

   27. JRJoe Rogan25:19

       That's crazy.

   28. GRGordon Ryan25:19

       And they go out, but they're all so lazy that they're all on the same level. Like, they're, they have 10 guys who train three times a week, so they all progress at relatively the same speed so they can get away with it. But now once there's, there's more professionalism and there's more money, as more money comes into the sport, you'll see that change and you'll see real professionals start to, start to grow.

   29. JRJoe Rogan25:37

       Well, I think with you it's not just, uh, the training every day, but it's also the analyzing of positions and the doing the intellectual work.

   30. GRGordon Ryan25:45

       Yeah. It's mostly John. Um, he, he always talks about everyone's happy to come in and do the physical work. You know, they come in, they train hard, they get a good sweat, they're sore. But the mental work is the hardest work, and nobody wants to do that. He's like-
10. 32:07 – 33:00

    How to watch ADCC and Flo Grappling’s role in modern production

    1. JRJoe Rogan32:07

       Yeah, clearly. Now this, uh, this ADCC, um, how will people be able to watch it?

    2. MJMo Jassim32:13

       Uh, it's exclusively on Flo Grappling.

    3. JRJoe Rogan32:15

       Oh, okay.

    4. MJMo Jassim32:15

       Yeah. Yeah, for this one.

    5. JRJoe Rogan32:17

       And so, uh, is it a pay-per-view thing on Flo Grappling or-

    6. MJMo Jassim32:20

       It's a, uh, subscription.

    7. JRJoe Rogan32:21

       Right.

    8. MJMo Jassim32:21

       So if you already have a Flo membership, you'll be able to watch it.

    9. JRJoe Rogan32:23

       Okay.

    10. MJMo Jassim32:23

        Um, you know, they gave me a lot of support, to be honest. A lot of people like to bash Flo, but, you know, I've been following this sport for 22 years, so I remember what it was like before they were around, you know? It's like, uh-

    11. GRGordon Ryan32:33

        Like, couldn't even watch matches.

    12. MJMo Jassim32:35

        It's like a dude and a camcorder and you get your DVD six months later.

    13. JRJoe Rogan32:38

        Yeah.

    14. MJMo Jassim32:38

        You know, so, um, for example, this ADCC, they're bringing over 70 staff themselves just to, to produce this event. So, they've been a big help, for sure.

    15. JRJoe Rogan32:47

        Well, the commentary was always great on Flo, and, uh, it was great on Who's Number One, but Raul's not there anymore, right? Is that what happened? Because-

    16. GRGordon Ryan32:57

        Yeah. (laughs) That-

    17. MJMo Jassim32:58

        (laughs)

    18. GRGordon Ryan32:58

        That is, that is correct. (laughs)

    19. JRJoe Rogan32:59

        So there was, like-

    20. GRGordon Ryan33:00

        (laughs)

11. 33:00 – 51:22

    Leandro Lo’s murder and the Felipe Peña match controversy (rule changes + quitting)

    1. JRJoe Rogan33:00

       For people who don't know, Leandro Lo, who's this, uh, w- beloved world champion jiu-jitsu guy got murdered, uh, the day before Felipe Pena-

    2. GRGordon Ryan33:10

       The day of.

    3. JRJoe Rogan33:11

       ... the day of.

    4. GRGordon Ryan33:12

       The night, the night before, yeah, like in the middle of the night.

    5. JRJoe Rogan33:13

       Yeah. So-

    6. MJMo Jassim33:14

       Did you hear about that story? It's crazy. So, he's in a nightclub the night before, and I, I knew Leandro too. He competed in ADCC. I hung out with him a few times. Very nice guy. So, based on what I've read in pretty good sources, he's in a nightclub. Some guy comes and removes a bottle off his table. So, he takes him down, mounts him, says, "Have you had enough?" Guy says, "Yes." He gets up. As he gets up, the guy shoots him in the head, kills him. This is where it gets interesting. The guy who shoots him and kills him is a purple belt in jiu-jitsu, and he's a military police officer. So, they arrest the guy, and, you know, Brazil, they don't mess around over there. Um, there was like 60, 70 people outside the police station, you know, protesting and just waiting for this police officer to get out, so...

    7. JRJoe Rogan33:59

       What the fuck, man?

    8. MJMo Jassim34:01

       Yeah, it's... I mean, over nothing. I mean, just shoot, shoot someone dead in, in the club right in the head, so over, over nothing. So-

    9. JRJoe Rogan34:08

       That's a guy who's probably killed a few too many people.

    10. MJMo Jassim34:11

        Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan34:11

        If you're a little... That casual about killing somebody.

    12. GRGordon Ryan34:13

        (laughs) Yeah. Yeah.

    13. MJMo Jassim34:14

        (laughs)

    14. JRJoe Rogan34:14

        Oh, he mounted me. Fuck that.

    15. MJMo Jassim34:16

        (laughs)

    16. GRGordon Ryan34:16

        (laughs)

    17. JRJoe Rogan34:16

        It's just so crazy. I mean, literally, Leandro could have broken every fucking bone in his body, and what would he have done? Nothing.

    18. MJMo Jassim34:23

        Nothing, and he led him up.

    19. JRJoe Rogan34:24

        Instead, he lets him up, and he, he shoots him and kills him. It's crazy.

    20. MJMo Jassim34:27

        Yeah, over nothing. It's ridiculous.

    21. JRJoe Rogan34:29

        It's so sad. It was so sad. So anyway, so, uh, Leandro was good friends with Felipe, so obviously, it's very emotionally devastating for Felipe, but that's where it gets weird.

    22. GRGordon Ryan34:41

        Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan34:41

        Right. So why don't you fill us in on the rest of it?

    24. GRGordon Ryan34:44

        So then, (sighs) I get a call, like, "Oh, hey, Leandro died. Felipe wants to cancel the match." So I'm like, "All right. We can't cancel the match." Like, "Well, he wants to change the rules to 30 minutes." And I'm like, "No." Like, Felipe is notorious for always trying to change the rules last minute, or do s- like, weasel his way into something that wasn't agreed upon. So I'm like, "No." I'm like, "We either fight on the... As the agreed upon rule set, or we just reschedule." Like, we had the bet match, the contract, it was for a no time limit match, and-

    25. JRJoe Rogan35:17

        We should also explain to people that you gave him 10 to 1 on the money.

    26. GRGordon Ryan35:20

        Yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan35:20

        So, you put up $100,000 to his $10,000.

    28. GRGordon Ryan35:24

        Correct.

    29. JRJoe Rogan35:25

        You guys put it in escrow, which is a wild thing to do.

    30. GRGordon Ryan35:28

        Yeah, I, I was-
12. 51:22 – 1:02:46

    Business of grappling: instructionals, passive income, and ‘technology’ advantage

    1. GRGordon Ryan51:22

       That, that's part of it too. Another thing that no one talks about, uh, to my success, is that I have the financial freedom to just focus only on training. Like, most guys will win ADCC, and then to support themselves for that year, they'll do, like, a seminar tour, where for three months or four months out of the year, they're teaching seminars and they're making active income, where you gotta travel here, you gotta travel there.

    2. JRJoe Rogan51:45

       Mm-hmm.

    3. GRGordon Ryan51:45

       And that fucks up your training.

    4. JRJoe Rogan51:46

       Yeah.

    5. GRGordon Ryan51:46

       And the only reason why people wanted you in the first place for the seminar is because you're talented and you're winning competitions.

    6. JRJoe Rogan51:52

       Mm.

    7. GRGordon Ryan51:53

       So then you just take time away from training, you start losing more, and then the demand for seminars goes down. It kinda spirals out of control. Whereas I set myself up with a passive income, and the instructionals and the everything else, so I don't have to do the seminars if I don't want to. I just spend all of my time training. So, my training t- I have the ability to train way more than these guys, 'cause I set myself up in a much better w- financial position through the passive income.

    8. JRJoe Rogan52:16

       Mm.

    9. GRGordon Ryan52:16

       And no one talks about that. People spend half the year teaching seminars, and they're like, "Oh, man. Like, I missed a, I missed, you know, six months of training." And then they lose competitions, and then it just goes down from there.

    10. JRJoe Rogan52:26

        Is it possible to do both? Is it possible to travel and still get that training in? Or is it re- do you really have to be, like, in a specific set and setting?

    11. GRGordon Ryan52:34

        I mean, you have bodies, right? But like, for me, going to Ohio to teach a seminar is not gonna be the same as training with John for the weekend.

    12. JRJoe Rogan52:44

        Right.

    13. GRGordon Ryan52:44

        Like, it's ... I mean, traveling itself just gets old, and like you're flying all around. The, uh, not eating prop- Like, you're eating airport food and shit.

    14. JRJoe Rogan52:52

        Yeah.

    15. GRGordon Ryan52:53

        So, um, and then you, like, miss lifting a lot of times. A lo- a lot of guys, a lot of times guys travel and they teach a seminar, then they'll sit on the beach. And it's just, without a routine, it's tough. Like, it's just much better to stay in a routine so you have like, "Okay, I'm doing this, this, this today, and this, this, this tomorrow." Um, and the traveling gets old, and I mean, you have bodies, but it's not the same as having like a coach with a, a training program. Like, you just show up at a random gym to teach a seminar, and now you have 50 people who you have no idea who they are. They're probably gonna try to injure you or go super hard.

    16. JRJoe Rogan53:25

        Right.

    17. GRGordon Ryan53:26

        Like, "Oh," like, "now's my chance to fucking show Gordon how good I am." It's like, "No, dude. I just taught a seminar. I'm not trying to fucking g- like have you jump into my knee and break my leg."

    18. JRJoe Rogan53:33

        Right. Right. Right.

    19. GRGordon Ryan53:34

        (laughs)

    20. JRJoe Rogan53:34

        And that does happen. But there's a lot of athletes out there who could go on seminar tours, and those are pretty lucrative. I mean, they can make what? $2,000 to $4,000 per seminar. Like Craig Jones.

    21. GRGordon Ryan53:44

        It's, it's a, it's a great income, but it's active income. Like, you have to be there. Like, you, there's only so many seminars you can teach. There's only one you. There's only so many seminars you can teach in a year. And every seminar you teach is gonna d- is going to inherently detract from your time training.

    22. JRJoe Rogan53:58

        Whereas your model is put out these DVDs and these videos.

    23. GRGordon Ryan54:02

        Exactly. So-

    24. JRJoe Rogan54:02

        And these instructionals.

    25. GRGordon Ryan54:03

        I spi- I spend a weekend in Boston filming an instructional, and over the course of a year, it'll make me a million dollars. And it's just one weekend of work for ... And then everyone in the world can access it. It's not like I have to be there to teach a seminar for 200 people. It's, I just download, I just upload it, and then, uh-... someone in Europe can buy the instructional-

    26. JRJoe Rogan54:22

        Mm-hmm.

    27. GRGordon Ryan54:23

        ... and watch it r- watch it right at home.

    28. JRJoe Rogan54:24

        And that's at BJJ Fanatics?

    29. GRGordon Ryan54:25

        Yeah.

    30. JRJoe Rogan54:26

        So in doing that, you, uh, m- must... I mean, y- you must see those techniques and all the, the training that you've done, you must see it in other competitors as well. Do you?
13. 1:02:46 – 1:21:48

    Spectator sport problem: boredom, incentives, and what makes exciting athletes

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:02:46

       What needs to be done to get more eyes on it? 'Cause right now, to me, it seems like I know you guys sold thousands of tickets, but those are probably thousands of Jujitsu students.

    2. GRGordon Ryan1:02:57

       Well, I'll be honest-

    3. MJMo Jassim1:02:58

       We gotta do more Rogan shows. (laughs)

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:03:00

       (laughs) That'll, that'll help a little.

    5. MJMo Jassim1:03:01

       I'll be honest with you. So 2019, me and my team, realistically we worked on it for four months. Um, we didn't really give it our 100%. But the best feedback I had at 2019 was a middle-aged woman comes up to me, and she's like, "I just came here 'cause my son asked me to come, and I had a great time." So my whole thing is, I need to cater to the masses. If I only cater to Jujitsu fans, I'm not gonna grow. So how do I do that? For this one, you know, one of the biggest influences for me was Pride FC. So we're going very heavy on the production, and I bring up this analogy all the time. How many UFC fans actually train a combat sport? It's probably less than 1%. NFL is what, 1% of one... You know, no one trains it. So I need to get the masses and not just cater to Jujitsu fans. So that's, that's where my goal is with this event.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:03:51

       The problem is that Jujitsu, watching Jujitsu is not that exciting until someone submits somebody. Whereas watching MMA, everybody understands what's going on. "That guy kicked that guy, that guy punched that guy. Oh my God, he's got his neck."

    7. GRGordon Ryan1:04:04

       It, that, that's the, that's the big thing is it starts at the athletes.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:04:08

       Hmm.

    9. GRGordon Ryan1:04:08

       And most athletes are boring. Like, when I go out, I have like the kind of like Anderson Silva effect, where like you go out and you're like, "This dude is just gonna make his opponent look like he's never trained before." So like that's why people watch me. If you look at what I do, uh, most people are interested in matches because of movement. Like that's why Gary is so exciting, because you know, you know you're going to watch Garry Tonon. You know it's gonna be a fucking sick match 'cause he's gonna be just scrambling all over the mat the whole time looking for submissions. My matches actually don't have that much movement. Um, but when I get ahold of people, it's just like, when I get them into certain positions and they just can't escape, they can't move, they can't do anything, that's what's interesting. Um, so most people enjoy movement, but when they watch my matches, it's interesting because of the fact that I just make guys look like they don't, they don't know what they're doing.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:04:55

        Hmm.

    11. GRGordon Ryan1:04:55

        Um, but most guys are boring. Like you see Andrei go out and he just pushes a guy around for 20 minutes and then hits a shitty double leg and scores too. And I was like, "Yeah, everyone knew that was gonna happen, number one. Number two, no one wanted to watch that." Um, so it really starts, uh, in the training room. Um, an athlete's always gonna train or always gonna compete like he trains. If you train to fucking submit guys, no matter what the rule set is, you're gonna go out and you're gonna try to submit guys.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:05:19

        Yeah, there's matches like that one, who's number one match between, um, Wagner and-

    13. GRGordon Ryan1:05:25

        Henger.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:05:25

        Yeah, and Henger. It's like, "Ugh."

    15. GRGordon Ryan1:05:28

        Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:05:28

        They, they just pushed each other around-

    17. GRGordon Ryan1:05:29

        Yeah.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:05:29

        ... for 15 whole minutes.

    19. GRGordon Ryan1:05:31

        No, and there was no wrestling exchanges.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:05:33

        No.

    21. GRGordon Ryan1:05:33

        There was no Jujitsu at all. There was-

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:05:34

        It didn't make any sense.

    23. GRGordon Ryan1:05:35

        Yeah. Um, so like you get a match like that and you're like, "Oh man, we're gonna watch this who's number one tonight. Let me show my friend who's never trained." And they see that and they're like-

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:05:43

        Ugh.

    25. GRGordon Ryan1:05:44

        ... "What the fuck was that, man?"

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:05:45

        The best part of that match was Eddie Bravo.

    27. GRGordon Ryan1:05:47

        Eddie...

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:05:47

        Eddie Bravo heckling. (laughs)

    29. MJMo Jassim1:05:48

        Oh yeah. (laughs)

    30. GRGordon Ryan1:05:49

        (laughs)

Episode duration: 2:12:57