JRE MMA Show #183 with Rico Verhoeven

1. 0:00 – 0:02

   Intro

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      [upbeat music]

2. 0:02 – 1:46

   Reconnecting years later and jumping straight into the Usyk controversy

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:02

      Joe Rogan podcast, check it out The Joe Rogan Experience Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. [upbeat music] Well, all right. Good to see you, champ.

   2. RVRico Verhoeven0:15

      Yes, sir.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      We were just trying to figure out how long it's been. How, what year, w- when was the last one we did together? I think it was 2017. Almost 10 years.

   4. RVRico Verhoeven0:23

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:23

      Or may- might have been '16. Shit.

   6. RVRico Verhoeven0:24

      Yeah, I think s- uh, yeah, s-

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:27

      '19. Was it really? May 19.

   8. RVRico Verhoeven0:29

      V- No.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:29

      Huh. Show number 71.

   10. RVRico Verhoeven0:31

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:31

       Wow.

   12. RVRico Verhoeven0:31

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       That's crazy.

   14. RVRico Verhoeven0:32

       He, he has the data. [laughs]

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       [laughs]

   16. RVRico Verhoeven0:34

       He, he's got it right there. Like-

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:37

       I, well-

   18. RVRico Verhoeven0:37

       Maybe, maybe we just got punched to the head a little bit too much.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       A little bit.

   20. RVRico Verhoeven0:40

       [laughs]

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       Well, listen, man, uh, I want to tell you that, uh, that fight with Usyk was one of the craziest things that I've ever seen in my life. Never in my life did I think a guy who would go straight from kickboxing... Did you have any professional boxing matches?

   22. RVRico Verhoeven0:57

       One.

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       One.

   24. RVRico Verhoeven0:58

       [laughs]

   25. JRJoe Rogan0:59

       One professional-

   26. RVRico Verhoeven1:00

       But, but I've been boxing for 15 years. [laughs]

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:01

       Of course.

   28. RVRico Verhoeven1:02

       But-

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:02

       Well, also, you're arguably the greatest kickboxer of all time.

   30. RVRico Verhoeven1:06

       Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate that.
3. 1:46 – 6:41

   Bad judging, early stoppage, and the case for transparency reforms

   1. RVRico Verhoeven1:46

      I know, and I gotta be honest, I think, like, we're, we're j- straight j- jumping into it, so... And like, uh, it, I think that's, that's the hard part of it. It, like, I don't like losing, but I don't... If it happens, it happens. But I think that's the part that, mm, that makes it even harder. That I've, it felt so unjust, and-

   2. JRJoe Rogan2:11

      It felt unjust. The stoppage felt unjust. It didn't seem make, like it made sense.

   3. RVRico Verhoeven2:14

      No, but next to-

   4. JRJoe Rogan2:14

      It was like they were looking for a way to stop the fight

   5. RVRico Verhoeven2:17

      ... exactly, but next to that, like, you say this as a combat sports commentator for years, and pre- you've been do- you've been in the sport for so many years, and all other professional boxers and commentators, e- et cetera, they all see the fight a certain way. Like you saw it, like how I experienced it. And then when we look at the scorecards, we, we get, like, a totally different fight. Like, what, what, what, what is going on there? And that is, for me, where the, the, the, the toughness is of, of the whole experience.

   6. JRJoe Rogan2:54

      Right. The, it's t- very difficult to accept. And if you had lost by decision, it would've been insanity. And we've seen those insane decisions before, and I never know what's going on. You know, I don't wanna think it's corruption, but it's almost worse if it's incompetence.

   7. RVRico Verhoeven3:09

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan3:09

      If you have someone who's judging a fight, which is, like, w- the most pivotal fight, arguably, of your career. You think about how long you've been reigning as the heavyweight champion of kickboxing. For, like, a decade.

   9. RVRico Verhoeven3:21

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan3:21

       Which is crazy, at the highest level.

   11. RVRico Verhoeven3:23

       100%.

   12. JRJoe Rogan3:23

       Like, especially at the heavyweight division.

   13. RVRico Verhoeven3:25

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan3:25

       It is so hard to stay at the top.

   15. RVRico Verhoeven3:27

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan3:28

       Nobody does.

   17. RVRico Verhoeven3:29

       No.

   18. JRJoe Rogan3:29

       Everybody's like... W- even in the UFC, it's like one, two fights-

   19. RVRico Verhoeven3:32

       And then

   20. JRJoe Rogan3:32

       ... and then they f- they fall off.

   21. RVRico Verhoeven3:34

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan3:34

       For you to be the heavyweight champion, and have fucking wars, like J- Jamal Ben Saddik, that fight.

   23. RVRico Verhoeven3:40

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan3:40

       Like, some of these fights, you've had wars.

   25. RVRico Verhoeven3:42

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan3:42

       And to come out on top every single fucking time.

   27. RVRico Verhoeven3:45

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan3:45

       And then you have this enormous fight, and you have terrible judging.

   29. RVRico Verhoeven3:50

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan3:51

       Terrible judging.
4. 6:41 – 8:12

   Appeal aftermath, ‘stopped after the bell,’ and why there’s no rematch buzz

   1. RVRico Verhoeven6:41

      Yeah, but that's the thing. We, uh, I appealed it. I appealed it.

   2. JRJoe Rogan6:46

      Mm-hmm.

   3. RVRico Verhoeven6:47

      And, and everything we appealed upon, we got... They said, like, "You guys were right." We got stopped after the bell.

   4. JRJoe Rogan6:55

      Yes.

   5. RVRico Verhoeven6:57

      The, right after the, after the stoppage, the doctor came. He, I wasn't disorientated. I didn't have no concussion or whatever symptoms, so everything, everything we, we got, they, they were like, "No, you're right, you're right, you're right." But-

   6. JRJoe Rogan7:13

      They never overturn it

   7. RVRico Verhoeven7:14

      [laughs] They never over-

   8. JRJoe Rogan7:14

      Never

   9. RVRico Verhoeven7:14

      ... turn nothing. [laughs]

   10. JRJoe Rogan7:15

       Well, the, a- also, w- how would they overturn it? Would they go to the judges' scorecards? And if they did go to the judges' scorecards, what would it be, a majority draw? 'Cause if, if you are down or you are, you're, uh, even on both cards, and then up on one, and then did they count the knockdowns in the, the, the final round? Because if they did-

   11. RVRico Verhoeven7:35

       Mm-hmm

   12. JRJoe Rogan7:35

       ... you might have lost that fight, which is even crazier.

   13. RVRico Verhoeven7:37

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan7:38

       Like, if-

   15. RVRico Verhoeven7:38

       But then, but then you have something like, "Hey, guys, let's look at the, the scoring cards again," and that like, uh, an other, that other people, other judges look at the scorecards and look at the fight and score it again, because-

   16. JRJoe Rogan7:51

       Well, here's where you know it's crazy

   17. RVRico Verhoeven7:52

       ... it doesn't make any sense. [laughs]

   18. JRJoe Rogan7:53

       Here's where you know it's crazy: it was the most competitive fight of Usyk's career as a heavyweight champion.

   19. RVRico Verhoeven7:57

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan7:58

       And they're not even talking at all about a rematch.

   21. RVRico Verhoeven8:00

       No.

   22. JRJoe Rogan8:01

       That's kinda crazy, right? Isn't that kinda crazy?

   23. RVRico Verhoeven8:03

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan8:03

       They're saying Deontay Wilder, which all love to Deontay.

   25. RVRico Verhoeven8:06

       Yeah, but-

   26. JRJoe Rogan8:07

       But Deontay is not Deontay Wilder of 2019.

   27. RVRico Verhoeven8:11

       No.

   28. JRJoe Rogan8:11

       He's a different guy now.

5. 8:12 – 10:01

   The ‘Rocky story’ rematch case and Usyk’s pivot to other opponents

   1. RVRico Verhoeven8:12

      That's a good, that's a good thing that you just brought that up, because before this fight, you heard the whole conversation. "Okay, we're gonna do Rico. After that, I wanna fight the, the winner of Dubois-Wardley, and after that, I wanna fight Tyson Fury again."

   2. JRJoe Rogan8:29

      Right. They don't hear any of that anymore.

   3. RVRico Verhoeven8:31

      The other, the other two-

   4. JRJoe Rogan8:32

      Yeah

   5. RVRico Verhoeven8:32

      ... are not in the conversation anymore.

   6. JRJoe Rogan8:34

      Yeah.

   7. RVRico Verhoeven8:34

      So without taking too much credit for it, I think, like, with this fight, he saw, like, "Hmm, this was [laughs] a little harder than I expected."

   8. JRJoe Rogan8:43

      Yeah.

   9. RVRico Verhoeven8:44

      "So let's take a, let's take a different route." And for me, I don't want a rematch just to have the rematch. I would like the rematch because it makes sense. There's a story within this rematch.

   10. JRJoe Rogan8:58

       It's huge.

   11. RVRico Verhoeven8:59

       And it's something that it, it is unfinished business.

   12. JRJoe Rogan9:03

       Yes.

   13. RVRico Verhoeven9:03

       And for me-

   14. JRJoe Rogan9:04

       It's a Rocky story.

   15. RVRico Verhoeven9:05

       Exactly.

   16. JRJoe Rogan9:05

       A real live Rocky story.

   17. RVRico Verhoeven9:06

       100%, and that's why for me, where I'm looking at now, I'm like in the fall of my, or maybe in the winter of my career as an athlete, and I just want to do big fights that make sense, and then you're like, "Ooh, this is the, what I want to see."

   18. JRJoe Rogan9:21

       Well, not only that, as a promoter, what makes more sense than that fight?

   19. RVRico Verhoeven9:25

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan9:26

       The Deontay f- Wilder fight, again, all respect to Deontay. I love that guy.

   21. RVRico Verhoeven9:29

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan9:29

       He's one of the greatest knockout artists-

   23. RVRico Verhoeven9:30

       100%, 100%

   24. JRJoe Rogan9:31

       ... in the history of the heavyweight division. He's not the same guy.

   25. RVRico Verhoeven9:33

       No.

   26. JRJoe Rogan9:34

       He's not the same guy, for whatever reason. This, it happens to everybody, right? I think he's 40 now, right?

   27. RVRico Verhoeven9:39

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan9:39

       It happens to everybody. You just got off of a crazy performance.

   29. RVRico Verhoeven9:45

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan9:46

       And the whole world got to see it. If any fight warrants a rematch, it's that fight.
6. 10:01 – 13:41

   How Rico’s size, cardio, and pace shocked boxing commentators

   1. JRJoe Rogan10:01

      'Cause in the be- the fight starts, I'm like, "How's this gonna go down? How's this gonna go down?" I'm like, "Whoa." First of all, I'm like, "Holy shit, Rico's fucking huge."

   2. RVRico Verhoeven10:07

      [laughs]

   3. JRJoe Rogan10:08

      You realize how big you are. And you know, Usyk is a cruiserweight. He's a cruiserweight who put on weight to become a-

   4. RVRico Verhoeven10:14

      Yeah, he's a built up cruiser, yeah

   5. JRJoe Rogan10:15

      ... he could still make cruiser.

   6. RVRico Verhoeven10:17

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan10:17

      If he wanted to, if he wanted to get really lean, he could still make cruiser easily.

   8. RVRico Verhoeven10:20

      100%, 100%.

   9. JRJoe Rogan10:20

      You're way beg- bigger than him. I'm like, that's a giant factor, and then it's your experience, your world championship level experience. You've been in so many big fights.

   10. RVRico Verhoeven10:30

       100%.

   11. JRJoe Rogan10:30

       You look so calm and so relaxed and so in the moment, and I was like, "Holy shit, he might pull it off."

   12. RVRico Verhoeven10:37

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan10:37

       And then it got into, like, the third, fourth, and fifth round, I'm like, "I don't see this changing."

   14. RVRico Verhoeven10:41

       [laughs]

   15. JRJoe Rogan10:41

       I'm like, "This is crazy." Like-

   16. RVRico Verhoeven10:42

       That was so funny. If you li- if you hear the, the, the commentators, they were like, "Okay, Rico's moving a lot, and he's feinting, and he's doing this, and he's doing that, but how long can he keep this up?"

   17. JRJoe Rogan10:52

       Well, they don't know about your cardio.

   18. RVRico Verhoeven10:53

       Exactly. [laughs]

   19. JRJoe Rogan10:54

       That's the thing about-

   20. RVRico Verhoeven10:54

       There was one, there was one commentator-

   21. JRJoe Rogan10:56

       Yeah

   22. RVRico Verhoeven10:56

       ... uh, that, that also commentated for Glory.

   23. JRJoe Rogan10:59

       Well, Alistair.

   24. RVRico Verhoeven11:00

       Alistair.

   25. JRJoe Rogan11:00

       Alistair was there.

   26. RVRico Verhoeven11:01

       Yeah, he was also there. He was also there. But the commentator for Glory, that he knew, like, that cardio-wise, I, I live in the gym. That's what it, and you know as well, like, I, I, I love this. So it, I don't, I'm never gonna lose on, on cardio, because then I lose for myself, so.

   27. JRJoe Rogan11:19

       No, you're an anomaly, is, in terms of, like, 260 pound men.

   28. RVRico Verhoeven11:23

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan11:23

       There's very few guys that are as big as you that push a pace like you did. So I wasn't... The, when they were saying that, I was like, "You guy, you know, you guys don't understand what you're seeing here."

   30. RVRico Verhoeven11:31

       [laughs]
7. 13:41 – 20:13

   How the fight got made: Statham, Joshua plans, tragedy, then Usyk

   1. RVRico Verhoeven13:41

      Let, let, it is, it's a crazy story. Okay, let me tell you. So it all started with the Canelo-Crawford fight. And, uh, Jason Statham is a good friend of mine, and I saw he was in Vegas for that fight, so I texted him, was like, "Yo, you there for that fight?" "Oh, my God, yeah, this is gonna be great." So we went back and forth, and it's like, "Yeah, bro." So he told me, "Brother, you need to be in boxing," because he was at my, at the tournament wh- when they did the eight-man tournament a few years ago, and so he comes to my fights. And he's like, "Oh, you, you gotta be h- you gotta be in here. You gotta kill these guys." I said, "Yeah. Yeah, I c- I, I think I could do pretty good." He's like, "You know what? I'ma throw it out there, and let's see what happens." Okay. So that was, uh, let me see. That was Vegas time during the day, so Amsterdam time it was nighttime. So the next morning, I'm, I'm on the treadmill. I'm running. The phone ring. Jason. Say, "Yo, bro." "I'm on the treadmill, let me call you back." "Listen, I put your name out there. I showed your videos, and they're going crazy. They want you." W- so I jumped off, I was like, "What do you mean?" "They said they want to do something. They're gonna call you. I gave them your contact." Like, "Okay." [laughs] So that's, that's how it started. Um, a, a few days later, they call me. "Rico, we want you to fight," blah, blah, blah. "We love what you do, and we want you to fight Anthony Joshua." So I'm like, "Okay. Let's go. [laughs] I'm ready for this opportunity." But I was on the set of Road House 2.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:16

      [laughs]

   3. RVRico Verhoeven15:17

      So then it was like, oh, shit, now we gotta combine everything. Like I, I, my trainer coming in, like, during, yeah, during takes, and, like, okay, we do some pad work. And, and then finally, uh, we were supposed to fight in February. So I think the deal came around October. October, November. So I had, like, around 10, 10 good weeks to, to train. And then finally, I finish off the movie in December, and he w- uh, but in between, Joshua got the offer to fight Jake Paul for a crazy amount of money, so he was like-

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:53

      Of course

   5. RVRico Verhoeven15:53

      ... "I'm gonna do that."

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:55

      Right.

   7. RVRico Verhoeven15:55

      "And then after that, I'm gonna, gonna do the Rico fight." Perfect. Okay, he does the, the Jake Paul fight. Well, that went like how it went, and then they reached out like, "Can we push the fight a little bit instead of February to March?" Like, "I'm good. The more time I get, the better [laughs] -"

   8. JRJoe Rogan16:12

      Right. Sure

   9. RVRico Verhoeven16:12

      ... "so to train, to, to transition into boxing." So that happened, and then the end of the, like two weeks later, that tragic accident happens. So there was, there was-

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:23

       Yeah, we're talking about Anthony Joshua.

   11. RVRico Verhoeven16:25

       Yeah, there was-

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:25

       He was in Africa. Terrible car accident.

   13. RVRico Verhoeven16:27

       Yeah, terrible.

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:27

       Killed two of his friends.

   15. RVRico Verhoeven16:28

       Yeah, terrible. So that derailed that whole situation, but I had a whole training plan scheduled. I was going to Spain to train there for a month. But I didn't know what was gonna happen, so I just did what I had to do, and I just continued training. So I was in Spain training, training, training, and then at the end of the, that training camp, they, uh, we were talking about it, and they said like, "Yeah, we don't think," and also with, uh, with, uh, with his manager, Eddie Hearn, like, "I don't know if he's gonna be back soon, so what do you want to do? You want to wait, or you want to fight?" I was like, "I'm already training, so I would like to fight somebody, but we don't know what makes sense. No, let's think about it." So we thought about, we thought about it. They thought about it.

   16. JRJoe Rogan17:12

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   17. RVRico Verhoeven17:41

       And then we were talking about, "Hey, what about, what about Usyk? Does that make sense?"

   18. JRJoe Rogan17:44

       Was it your idea?

   19. RVRico Verhoeven17:45

       Yeah, it was our idea.

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:46

       [laughs]

   21. RVRico Verhoeven17:47

       I'm like, "Yeah, that makes sense. Why not?"

   22. JRJoe Rogan17:49

       [laughs]

   23. RVRico Verhoeven17:49

       Because he's the, he's the top dog.

   24. JRJoe Rogan17:51

       Yeah.

   25. RVRico Verhoeven17:51

       He's, like, undisputed kickboxing champion versus the undisputed boxing champion. Like, there's a story there.

   26. JRJoe Rogan17:57

       Right. Yeah.

   27. RVRico Verhoeven17:58

       I was like, "Let's just throw it out there, and let's see what they say." Okay. Pick up the phone. I call them. "Yo, yo, guys, yeah. We have an idea." So I pitched them the whole idea, undisputed versus undisputed. Silence. What did I just do?

   28. JRJoe Rogan18:15

       [laughs]

   29. RVRico Verhoeven18:17

       [laughs] Then the first thing I hear back, "We love it."

   30. JRJoe Rogan18:22

       Whoa.
8. 20:13 – 25:40

   Why kickboxing struggles in America: promotion, storytelling, and media machines

   1. JRJoe Rogan20:13

      Well, you know, it drives me nuts as a fan of combat sports, as also a giant fan of kickboxing-

   2. RVRico Verhoeven20:19

      Yeah

   3. JRJoe Rogan20:20

      ... that kickboxing does not get the love that it deserves in America. It doesn't make any sense. Because in MMA, the casual fans love stand up-

   4. RVRico Verhoeven20:30

      Yeah

   5. JRJoe Rogan20:30

      ... and when fights go to the ground, they boo.

   6. RVRico Verhoeven20:32

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan20:33

      So, like, it, it makes no sense to me-

   8. RVRico Verhoeven20:36

      No

   9. JRJoe Rogan20:37

      ... how you have boxing, huge-

   10. RVRico Verhoeven20:39

       Yeah

   11. JRJoe Rogan20:39

       ... MMA, huge, kickboxing, almost nonexistent in America. There's no big kickboxing leagues.

   12. RVRico Verhoeven20:45

       No, but maybe because they, they wanna see, yeah, their own people win maybe.

   13. JRJoe Rogan20:51

       No.

   14. RVRico Verhoeven20:51

       No? You don't think so?

   15. JRJoe Rogan20:51

       No, it just hasn't been promoted right.

   16. RVRico Verhoeven20:53

       No.

   17. JRJoe Rogan20:53

       It doesn't make any sense. It makes no sense. Because their own people don't win in MMA. I mean-

   18. RVRico Verhoeven20:57

       No

   19. JRJoe Rogan20:57

       ... there's very few American champions. There's, uh, Justin Gaethje and Sean Strickland, and they, uh-

   20. RVRico Verhoeven21:02

       Yeah, but at least they're really competitive, and in kickboxing, they're...

   21. JRJoe Rogan21:06

       Right. That's true, but we don't care, honestly.

   22. RVRico Verhoeven21:09

       No?

   23. JRJoe Rogan21:09

       In the, in MMA, no. I mean, Alex Pereira was the biggest s- star in the sport.

   24. RVRico Verhoeven21:14

       Also kickboxing, yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan21:15

       He probably still is. Yeah.

   26. RVRico Verhoeven21:15

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan21:16

       Exactly.

   28. RVRico Verhoeven21:16

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan21:16

       But, a Brazilian, doesn't speak English at all.

   30. RVRico Verhoeven21:19

       No.
9. 25:40 – 28:08

   Free agency, vacating the belt, crossover options, and the Ngannou fork in the road

   1. RVRico Verhoeven25:40

      Yeah, so, but that's why it's, it's good for me now, like, I, yeah, I, I'm a, I'm a free agent.

   2. JRJoe Rogan25:46

      Well, I know there was a talk

   3. RVRico Verhoeven25:46

      Yeah. [laughs]

   4. JRJoe Rogan25:46

      There was a talk about you fighting Derrick Lewis.

   5. RVRico Verhoeven25:48

      Yeah, there was

   6. JRJoe Rogan25:49

      I remember that.

   7. RVRico Verhoeven25:50

      Yeah

   8. JRJoe Rogan25:50

      And then you got this Us- the offer to box-

   9. RVRico Verhoeven25:52

      Yeah

   10. JRJoe Rogan25:52

       ... and it was so much money, you had to-

   11. RVRico Verhoeven25:53

       Yeah, the, the, the Joshua fight first, yeah

   12. JRJoe Rogan25:54

       Yeah. Oh, that's right, the Joshua fight first

   13. RVRico Verhoeven25:55

       Yeah, that's where, that's where it started. So yeah, so we were in talks, uh, because I was a free agent. I vacated the belt.

   14. JRJoe Rogan26:03

       How many MMA fights do you have? You, at least one

   15. RVRico Verhoeven26:05

       One

   16. JRJoe Rogan26:05

       One. [laughs]

   17. RVRico Verhoeven26:06

       I have just one, yeah, just one. I did some grappling years ago, but I just have one, one, uh, professional MMA fight. So, so after that, vacating my, my belt, I was a free agent, so we were like, "Okay, let's, yeah, dip our toes in different water. Let's see, yeah, let's see what's, what's on the landscape now." So-

   18. JRJoe Rogan26:24

       Why did you decide to vacate the belt? 'Cause you had done everything you needed to do.

   19. RVRico Verhoeven26:27

       I, I did it all

   20. JRJoe Rogan26:27

       You cleaned out the division.

   21. RVRico Verhoeven26:29

       I did it all, so I was like, I wanted, uh, I wanted it to, to make sense. And first, we, we, we talked within the organization of, like, "Hey, I'm looking to do big stuff, different stuff," so, like, crossover events, because that was getting more and more talked about, like, the big crossover events. And I think, yeah, in my opinion, I am one of the baddest men on the planet, so it, it made sense to do it. But then, yeah, within the organization management, wrong management, like, we just, yeah, didn't get, it, we just didn't get to a place where it works out. So I was like, "Okay, let me just leave it then." So I left it, and then we talked with UFC to see, yeah, what was going on there. But then, yeah, I got the other offer, and it made more sense. [laughs]

   22. JRJoe Rogan27:19

       Now, was the other offer a one-contract fight, a one-fight contract?

   23. RVRico Verhoeven27:23

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan27:23

       So you're free again.

   25. RVRico Verhoeven27:24

       I'm a free agent again, yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan27:25

       Oh, wow.

   27. RVRico Verhoeven27:26

       So, and that's why now-

   28. JRJoe Rogan27:27

       Did, was there any conversation at all about a rematch?

   29. RVRico Verhoeven27:31

       Yeah, right away. His Excellency came into the ring and he said, "You're gonna fight this guy again." [laughs] That's the first thing he said. But Kabayel also came into the ring, uh, Ajit Kabayel, the, the WBC interim champion, and now the, the champion because, uh, Usyk vacated the belt as well. So, um, he also wanted his shot, so there was, like, a lot of talk, and, uh, like, at that moment, I was there, but it was just, like, I don't know. It was-

   30. JRJoe Rogan28:02

       Chaos
10. 28:08 – 40:01

    Open scoring distorted strategy—and Rico’s regret over one key mistake

    1. RVRico Verhoeven28:08

       And it took, it took me, like, at least six weeks before I watched the fight back for the very first time after the fight.

    2. JRJoe Rogan28:16

       Wow.

    3. RVRico Verhoeven28:17

       Because it, it, it, yeah, it, it still hurts. [laughs] So, um, so yeah, so now I'm, I'm, like, a free agent, and I, we get-

    4. JRJoe Rogan28:25

       When you watched it after the bell, what-

    5. RVRico Verhoeven28:26

       ... we, we get so many, we get so many offers now

    6. JRJoe Rogan28:28

       ... what is it like watching it and watching the fight get stopped after the bell?

    7. RVRico Verhoeven28:32

       It still hurts. It still hurts. I'm like, "Wow, what, what did you, what did you wa- want me to do? Did you want me to move around? Did you want me to, to punch back or whatever?" For me, like, you know I've been in, in trouble multiple times within my world title kickboxing fights.

    8. JRJoe Rogan28:51

       Yeah.

    9. RVRico Verhoeven28:51

       I w- I was behind multiple times, and I still came on, came out on top. So there was, for me, there's no conversation in, like, "Okay, could he continue? Is he gonna continue?" I never stop.

    10. JRJoe Rogan29:06

        They don't know you.

    11. RVRico Verhoeven29:07

        Exactly.

    12. JRJoe Rogan29:07

        That's the other thing is the, the conditioning thing. Like, your conditioning is so good, you bounce back so quick, and there's been so many times where guys try to empty the tank to put you out.

    13. RVRico Verhoeven29:16

        Yeah

    14. JRJoe Rogan29:16

        And you're not going nowhere.

    15. RVRico Verhoeven29:17

        No, and it's, it was just a few seconds-

    16. JRJoe Rogan29:19

        Oh, wow

    17. RVRico Verhoeven29:19

        ... and a referee should know that. So next to that, like, with all the experience you know that I have within the combat sports, like, it's just a few seconds. Let it go, and let me at least give me the opportunity and give the fans the opportunity to see that 12th round.

    18. JRJoe Rogan29:37

        Right.

    19. RVRico Verhoeven29:37

        So-

    20. JRJoe Rogan29:38

        Oh, it would've been so exciting

    21. RVRico Verhoeven29:39

        ... yeah. Oh my God. But also, looking, now looking back at it, because there was also open scoring, and I love open scoring because within that gives you the right position and gives the fighters the position. Like, okay, where are, where, where we're standing within this fight. But now looking back at the fight, after eight rounds, because after e- every four rounds, we hear what the scoring is. After eight rounds, [laughs] uh, my trainer, Peter Fury, says, "Okay, we gotta really start winning these rounds now." I was like, "What? I, I'm, I..." I was like, "Am I hearing this right? I, I feel like [laughs] I'm already winning these rounds." He said, "No, we're equal. We're, we're equal on the scorecards after eight rounds." So I was like, "Okay." So in the ninth round, I c-

    22. JRJoe Rogan30:29

        Even the commentators were like, "What?"

    23. RVRico Verhoeven30:30

        Yeah, exactly. But then I s- really started pushing even more, but I was pushing already. But if you know you're, like, eight or seven rounds ahead, and you feel like you're getting tired the last two or three rounds, just move around.

    24. JRJoe Rogan30:45

        Yeah.

    25. RVRico Verhoeven30:46

        [laughs] T- t- tip, tap, and maybe you lose or maybe it's a draw, whatever, and then still you win, uh, because you were, like, five rounds ahead. Then it doesn't make any sense. But now, we had to keep pushing, and then, oh, that's, like-

    26. JRJoe Rogan30:59

        Yeah, well open scoring

    27. RVRico Verhoeven30:59

        ... walking straight into that uppercut, like, oh!

    28. JRJoe Rogan31:02

        [laughs]

    29. RVRico Verhoeven31:02

        It still, it still gets me. Oh, and when I look back at it, it's like, oh. And then that last part, that's what I f- find so hard, and I f- I feel like I need to work on that as a, as a human being, for myself as a person. I can only look at that, at that one mistake I felt I made at the end, because I gave them the opportunity to pull this card. That's what, that's- that's how it feels for me.

    30. JRJoe Rogan31:31

        Mistake being that you pushed too hard, or a mis-
11. 40:01 – 44:47

    Game-planning Usyk: southpaw angles, smothering range, and volume over power

    1. JRJoe Rogan40:01

       Well, let me ask you this.

    2. RVRico Verhoeven40:02

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan40:02

       When you f- first started formulating a game plan, did you watch a bunch... I'm, I'm sure you were already a fan of Usyk's-

    4. RVRico Verhoeven40:09

       Yeah

    5. JRJoe Rogan40:09

       ... you'd watched his fights.

    6. RVRico Verhoeven40:09

       100%.

    7. JRJoe Rogan40:10

       But did you re-watch them and try to find patterns?

    8. RVRico Verhoeven40:12

       100%.

    9. JRJoe Rogan40:12

       How did you formulate this game plan?

    10. RVRico Verhoeven40:14

        Oh, of course, uh, with, uh, yeah, my trainer, Peter Fury, uh, with the, he's, yeah, he's crazy. He's the very, very, very bet- best at what he does. And we were just, like, analyzing these fights. Like, so first, he already had the thing in hi- in his mind, and he asked me, like, "What do you see all these boxers do, and what they shouldn't be doing, and what do you think they should do?" So I look at it, I look at it, I look at it, and I think it basically started with if somebody is a southpaw, why would you stay right in front of them? That's one thing. And because you cannot go, if somebody's orthodox, you move to the right. But you cannot move to the right with a southpaw, because you're walking straight into a left hand. So why is nobody moving to the left? Because then, as soon as you move to the left, you're walking away from-

    11. JRJoe Rogan41:18

        Right

    12. RVRico Verhoeven41:19

        ... that, that strong arm. I think, and that's what we, he said, he said exactly.

    13. JRJoe Rogan41:24

        Which is crazy. It's just so many people are so stuck in their patterns.

    14. RVRico Verhoeven41:28

        Exactly, yeah.

    15. JRJoe Rogan41:28

        The way they like to move.

    16. RVRico Verhoeven41:29

        100%.

    17. JRJoe Rogan41:29

        They like to move to their right.

    18. RVRico Verhoeven41:31

        Yeah.

    19. JRJoe Rogan41:31

        That's what they like. They feel good. They want to move to their right and throw a right hand. But you were just running into that power hand.

    20. RVRico Verhoeven41:37

        Exactly, yeah.

    21. JRJoe Rogan41:37

        It's just crazy that... It's not just that, too. It's also the size difference. Like, that was one thing. It's like you were so big in that-

    22. RVRico Verhoeven41:45

        Yeah

    23. JRJoe Rogan41:45

        ... that ring, that you were smothering him, and you were on top of him.

    24. RVRico Verhoeven41:48

        Yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan41:48

        And you were throwing those shots in tight.

    26. RVRico Verhoeven41:50

        Yeah, but the, the combination of those two, getting him out of that position took away so many, so many of his tools, and then, like you said, smothering and getting into him, and using my size. Because if you ask me, like all the guys he fought are way, they're, they're my size. They're way bigger than him.

    27. JRJoe Rogan42:11

        Right.

    28. RVRico Verhoeven42:11

        But because of the way they fought, they couldn't use their size on him. But the way I did it, I could.

    29. JRJoe Rogan42:20

        Tyson Fury did a lot. He, he used his size a lot, you know. And he's a, a different kind of big, though. He's big and long, where you're ... fucking thick.

    30. RVRico Verhoeven42:29

        Yeah
12. 44:47 – 1:07:53

    Training partners, southpaw sparring problems, and the six-month rewiring to box

    1. JRJoe Rogan44:47

       What heavyweight boxers have you worked with over the years?

    2. RVRico Verhoeven44:51

       All the, the, the, the, the top fighters. Of course, that's how I got with Peter Fury. I started with Tyson Fury. Um, I t- I trained with, uh, with Agit Kabayel because he was also in that, uh, um, uh, in that camp back then. Mm, Hughie Fury, uh, Peter's son. He's, I think he's, he's also, he's been going up and down because of his health, but he's definitely one of the best and he, yeah, we're gonna see more of him because, yeah, he's such a good competitor and such a good boxer as well. Uh, great skill set, so there's been a bunch of fighters that I, that, that we've worked with.

    3. JRJoe Rogan45:33

       That's so massive.

    4. RVRico Verhoeven45:34

       Yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan45:34

       'Cause y- you know, sharing all that gym time with elite guys like Tyson Fury-

    6. RVRico Verhoeven45:38

       Yeah

    7. JRJoe Rogan45:39

       ... you know, and Kabayel, though, ha- having that kind of experience in the gym must have also been a huge confidence boost too.

    8. RVRico Verhoeven45:45

       100%. 100%. Especially now in these, these, this, this whole last thing is trying to get, like, sou- good southpaw fighters. Oh my God, that's the hardest thing. The hardest thing. And then we had one big guy and we, we had one, uh, one smaller guy. It was, uh, it was so hard. And then mixing that up. So to, we started off with first, the first six with, uh, with the big guy, uh, Moses Jolly. And an amazing boxer, but he's big. He's big, he's heavy. He's not an Usyk. He's, like, twice as big as Usyk, but he's a southpaw, so he has that power, and we could really compete. And then after that, uh, we, we, we, we jumped in with, uh, in, with James Branch, and he's, like, 90, 90 kilo southpaw, so he's like, "Pew, pew, pew, pew."

    9. JRJoe Rogan46:35

       [laughs]

    10. RVRico Verhoeven46:35

        He's like throwing rapid fire punches. Like, "Oh, fuck." So, and then, and that changed within sparring, so doing first six with one, and then six with the other. Oh my God, that was, it was next level. It was, like, six months of pure hard work.

    11. JRJoe Rogan46:53

        Wow.

    12. RVRico Verhoeven46:54

        But it was so cool. It was so cool. And it, it, yeah, it just opened up my mind to a whole different, to a whole different world. And it's, for being in, in combat sports since I was six, and after all these years saying like, "Okay, this kickboxing chapter within the book is, I think that's, that's done. Let's start a new chapter."

    13. JRJoe Rogan47:19

        Well, there's no big kickboxing fight that can compare with what you just did.

    14. RVRico Verhoeven47:23

        No, exactly.

    15. JRJoe Rogan47:24

        I mean, how old are you now? 38?

    16. RVRico Verhoeven47:25

        37.

    17. JRJoe Rogan47:26

        37.

    18. RVRico Verhoeven47:26

        Yeah.

    19. JRJoe Rogan47:27

        So at that age, like, you've gotta, you've gotta, like, look at what you've already accomplished.

    20. RVRico Verhoeven47:32

        Yeah.

    21. JRJoe Rogan47:33

        In, in kickboxing, there's no fight that everyone's calling out for.

    22. RVRico Verhoeven47:36

        No.

    23. JRJoe Rogan47:36

        Like, "Oh, you ha-," you know, it's not like Badr Hari's at the t- in the prime.

    24. RVRico Verhoeven47:41

        No.

    25. JRJoe Rogan47:41

        There's not, like, one big fight.

    26. RVRico Verhoeven47:43

        No. No. So there was like, "Hey," and especially with the whole, uh, crossover fights being at the biggest attention right now, it's like, "Hey, I think this-

    27. JRJoe Rogan47:53

        Yeah

    28. RVRico Verhoeven47:53

        ... this is something we gotta look at."

    29. JRJoe Rogan47:54

        So after the fight is done-

    30. RVRico Verhoeven47:56

        Yeah
13. 1:07:53 – 1:14:44

    Conditioning blueprint: endurance-based lifting, heart-rate work, and joint protection

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:07:53

       What were you doing for conditioning? Like, w- I just wanna know what your conditioning is like in general, because you are such a big guy, and to be that big and have that kind of cardio is very extraordinary.

    2. RVRico Verhoeven1:08:07

       Um, well, do I agree? Do I agree? Maybe partially I agree with that, because to be honest, at the top, Joe, everybody works hard, right? That's what I do. I just work incredibly hard. But I believe that mentally, when you get tired or when your body gives signals of starting feel, to feel tired, how do you cope t- with that in your mind? That's, that's where I think the, the biggest difference is. Because if at the moment I feel I'm getting tired, then I know my opponent is feeling fucked.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:08:52

       Right. Right, right.

    4. RVRico Verhoeven1:08:53

       Because I know how hard I work to be fit and to do everything possible to be in the best shape ever. Because if you look at training schedules or whatever from my schedule versus another guy's schedule, I, I find it hard to believe that I'm training so much harder than all the other top guys. If, yeah, that's my opinion. I find that hard to believe. So for me, it's just, like, a mental thing. As soon as I start feeling it, I'm like, "Okay, now the fight starts."

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:09:26

       Well, there's certain, certain people have genetics that lean towards better cardio and conditioning.

    6. RVRico Verhoeven1:09:32

       Yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:09:32

       Like in the UFC, Cain Velasquez was famous-

    8. RVRico Verhoeven1:09:34

       Yeah

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:09:35

       ... for that.

    10. RVRico Verhoeven1:09:35

        He was a monster.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:09:36

        He just had insane cardio-

    12. RVRico Verhoeven1:09:37

        Yeah

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:09:37

        ... for a heavyweight. Um, but for you, are, are you, um, w- what I'm getting at, how much time are you spending on strength and conditioning versus skill work?

    14. RVRico Verhoeven1:09:49

        I think it's pretty balanced. It's pretty balanced. But for example, everything I do is based on endurance, so even the power j- I, I don't have to do 300 pounds bench press.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:10:03

        Right.

    16. RVRico Verhoeven1:10:03

        I don't care. I know I'm already big and-

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:10:06

        Right

    18. RVRico Verhoeven1:10:07

        ... I'm, I'm, I'm, I know I'm not the hardest puncher within the game. I don't have to be the hardest puncher in the game. But as soon as I hit, I'm still a heavyweight, still like-

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:10:17

        Right

    20. RVRico Verhoeven1:10:18

        ... 260 pounds behind it. So when I hit you, you're gonna feel it. So that's how we approach it. I don't, yeah, just lean into what works for you. I'm not the strongest puncher. I also don't believe I'm the most skillful, but I'm definitely the hardest worker, and that's what we try to emp- emphasize. Like, just keep working. Keep working hard so we, yeah, the pace is high. We can show a lot. We can do a lot.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:10:47

        So do you have a guy that's just a strength and conditioning guy-

    22. RVRico Verhoeven1:10:49

        Yeah

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:10:50

        ... that, that, and so, like, what kind of work were you doing? What kind of things are you doing?

    24. RVRico Verhoeven1:10:54

        I, [laughs] you wanna know it all, right? [laughs]

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:10:55

        Yeah. I wanna know it all.

    26. RVRico Verhoeven1:10:56

        I do a, I do a full body, full body workout, uh, three times a week, and just a lot of reps. A lot of reps. And I just-

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:11:07

        So this is more strength than conditioning, or is it both at the same time?

    28. RVRico Verhoeven1:11:10

        It's both at the same time.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:11:11

        Both at the same time.

    30. RVRico Verhoeven1:11:12

        Because what we do is we have, um, uh, for example, we do chest, and I do, like, 20 reps, just the beginning, 20 reps. Then we get to another exercise, and then again, I do 20, 20 reps, so we do 40 reps each, and those reps are gonna go up the closer we get to the fight. But the rest between the exercise is just 30 seconds, and then we change exercise.
14. 1:14:44 – 1:21:36

    Grief, emotional processing, and finding a post-fight identity through acting

    1. RVRico Verhoeven1:14:44

       No.

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:14:45

       No?

    3. RVRico Verhoeven1:14:45

       No.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:14:45

       They just stitched it up?

    5. RVRico Verhoeven1:14:46

       They stitched it back, so the first-

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:14:47

       That's smarter.

    7. RVRico Verhoeven1:14:48

       Yeah, but the-

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:14:48

       They know that now.

    9. RVRico Verhoeven1:14:49

       Yeah, but the first six weeks you're not allowed to, to put too much pressure on it.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:14:54

        Right. Right.

    11. RVRico Verhoeven1:14:55

        But oh, my God, that was terrible.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:14:56

        They used to think that you should cut the meniscus out, and now they're, they've done studies, and they find that there's no benefit to that. A matter of fact-

    13. RVRico Verhoeven1:15:03

        Of course not, because it's, it, it's, your meniscus-

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:15:05

        Yeah

    15. RVRico Verhoeven1:15:05

        ... is right between the, the bones.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:15:06

        Mm-hmm.

    17. RVRico Verhoeven1:15:06

        Or else it's just bone on bone. It's-

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:15:08

        Exactly. Exactly.

    19. RVRico Verhoeven1:15:10

        That's why they said, especially with, with me being so heavy and so big, they're like, "Uh, in, within 10 years you're gonna have trouble if we're gonna take it out."

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:15:17

        Yeah, I have trouble on my left leg because of that very reason. They took a big piece of it out when I had the bucket handle tear, and it just, that, that area hurts all the time.

    21. RVRico Verhoeven1:15:26

        Yeah.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:15:27

        Just it is what it is. Uh, they do cadaver grafts, where they'll take a cadaver meniscus and put it in place.

    23. RVRico Verhoeven1:15:33

        Really?

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:15:33

        Yeah, they take a piece of meniscus-

    25. RVRico Verhoeven1:15:34

        Wow

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:15:34

        ... out of a dead guy. But it's, doesn't always work, and, you know, you really have to be young for it to work more effectively. I guess they say that, but that also could be dependent upon what you're doing with it. Like, are you using peptides? Are you using stem cells? Are you using hyperbaric chamber?

    27. RVRico Verhoeven1:15:52

        Yeah.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:15:52

        Are you using red light therapy? Are you using all the different modalities-

    29. RVRico Verhoeven1:15:55

        Yeah

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:15:55

        ... that could help you heal quicker?
15. 1:21:36 – 1:28:27

    Spectacle and symbolism: fighting at the pyramids and the full-circle family moment

    1. RVRico Verhoeven1:21:36

       I don't know, just to get, like, a way of feeling like, yeah, I can, I can take that, that emotion in. Because now I just, every time I'm just pushing that emotion away and just using it as fuel to be a fighter and be the best version of me within the ring.

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:21:58

       Right.

    3. RVRico Verhoeven1:21:58

       But, like, as a, as a person, it, I don't f- [laughs] feel like it's, it's a healthy way to just, like, keep pushing everything-

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:22:05

       No, certainly not

    5. RVRico Verhoeven1:22:06

       ... um, and keep pushing it down.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:22:08

       Well, it's great that you recognize that though, and that will definitely help you as you transition from being a fighter to being a retired fighter and doing whatever else you want to do.

    7. RVRico Verhoeven1:22:17

       Yeah.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:22:17

       Where you have so much time left in your life to do anything.

    9. RVRico Verhoeven1:22:19

       Yeah, 100%. 100%.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:22:20

        And, but recognizing that that is an issue is huge for-

    11. RVRico Verhoeven1:22:24

        Yeah

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:22:24

        ... for your ability to move on to do other things, because-

    13. RVRico Verhoeven1:22:28

        Yeah, 100%.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:22:29

        That's a giant struggle for a lot of fighters.

    15. RVRico Verhoeven1:22:31

        Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:22:31

        The, the struggle, especially fighters that have competed at your level. You know, the glory, the excitement, the, the, the chaos of it all is so huge-

    17. RVRico Verhoeven1:22:40

        Yeah

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:22:40

        ... that to step away from that, it's very, very difficult for a lot of guys.

    19. RVRico Verhoeven1:22:44

        Yeah, that's why I'm so happy. And I also believe that what gave me this is that I found my new passion within acting. But-

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:22:54

        Mm.

    21. RVRico Verhoeven1:22:55

        So being on, on set with Jake Gyllenhaal, with Dave Bautista, with Aldis Hodge, and those guys being so excellent at what they're doing as actors-

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:23:09

        Right

    23. RVRico Verhoeven1:23:09

        ... and then just talking with them about this, I think that also gave me more and more that realization of, hey, instead of just, like, pushing it away, I can use those emotions and that feeling to be an actor at a certain point. So, and I always said like, "Yeah, I just, oh," I just kept pushing it away. Said, "I don't want to feel it. I don't want to feel it. And as soon as I feel it, I, I turn it into physical pain so I know I get a be- be a better version of me within the ring." Said, "I hear what you're saying, but if you want to get into acting, it's good to feel. Because as soon as you feel-

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:23:48

        Right

    25. RVRico Verhoeven1:23:48

        ... it's even better, it's gonna transition even better on camera, because then we see that you're feeling something. And if it, if it comes out of your own experience, it's even better. It hurts still, but you can turn it into something positive." And that's where, where I'm really happy about, like, after being a fighter, I really found my new passion within acting because it's so much fun.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:24:12

        That's great.

    27. RVRico Verhoeven1:24:13

        So much fun to be on set and yeah, being great at something else.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:24:18

        Yeah, that's great that you found something else that you're excited about. That's really important. Very important. So how many movies have you done?

    29. RVRico Verhoeven1:24:25

        Uh, I did a few. Did a few, I think, like, a handful. And I think the, the most recognizable things I did was, uh, Den of Thieves, Pantera, Den of Thieves 2.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:24:34

        Oh, nice.
16. 1:28:27 – 2:17:11

    Combat sports ecosystem: UFC pay gaps, new promoters, rules debates, and what’s next

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:28:27

       Right. So, um, h- when you're talking about these different conversations that people have had with you, is the door completely closed to the UFC? 'Cause I know that they did contact you, and you were talk- they were talking about you fighting, and that they were gonna try to do that Derrick Lewis fight

    2. RVRico Verhoeven1:28:44

       Yeah

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:28:44

       I was excited about that

    4. RVRico Verhoeven1:28:45

       Yeah. Me too. [laughs]

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:28:46

       But the, the money was nowhere near, I'm sure, the money that you got for the UFC fight

    6. RVRico Verhoeven1:28:50

       Exactly, so, [laughs] so I believe that, that the gap is even bigger now. [laughs]

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:28:53

       Yeah. I'm sure

    8. RVRico Verhoeven1:28:55

       So I think that's, that's where, that's where the, the actual problem is, just to be completely transparent. So for me, it doesn't make any sense to-

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:29:04

       Right

    10. RVRico Verhoeven1:29:05

        ... go around the bush or whatever

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:29:06

        And go backwards-

    12. RVRico Verhoeven1:29:07

        No, no, no, no

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:29:08

        ... financially

    14. RVRico Verhoeven1:29:09

        No. So-

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:29:09

        Yeah

    16. RVRico Verhoeven1:29:09

        ... i- if, if they would wanna do something, it really has to make sense, but yeah, we all know that, yeah, that's not really, like, how the UFC works

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:29:18

        Right

    18. RVRico Verhoeven1:29:19

        So I don't believe that that is an option. That, that option-

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:29:22

        Well, it's interesting, because-

    20. RVRico Verhoeven1:29:23

        ... is not an option

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:29:23

        ... their heavyweight division is so, um... Have you ever worked with Tom Aspinall?

    22. RVRico Verhoeven1:29:28

        Of course. He's, he's a very good friend of mine. Yeah

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:29:30

        Oh, really?

    24. RVRico Verhoeven1:29:31

        Yeah

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:29:32

        Oh, that's right

    26. RVRico Verhoeven1:29:32

        We, we, we trained, we trained so-

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:29:32

        I've seen video of you guys training together

    28. RVRico Verhoeven1:29:33

        Yeah, we trained so much already for, like, I think close to 10 years

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:29:37

        Man, he got a bad deal. He got really fucked over, um, for that, that fight. It d- you know, the way people got upset at him for stopping the fight, uh, w- with those eye pokes, that, to me, that drove me crazy. Like, what do you expect the guy to do?

    30. RVRico Verhoeven1:29:52

        Yeah

Episode duration: 2:17:12