The Joe Rogan ExperienceJRE MMA Show #45 with Justin Wren & Rafael Lovato Jr.
CHAPTERS
- 0:01 – 1:20
Lovato’s Bellator run, UFC aspirations, and starting MMA at 31
Joe opens by praising Rafael Lovato Jr. and jokingly laments that he’s fighting in Bellator instead of the UFC. Lovato explains he’s happy where he is, even though he began MMA surprisingly late after an elite BJJ career.
- •Rogan argues Bellator’s roster is stronger than ever (Mousasi, Rory, Lima, Machida, etc.)
- •Lovato is 35 and started MMA in 2014 at age 31
- •Rogan wants to commentate Lovato’s fights and imagines him in the UFC
- •Early framing: Lovato’s unusual path from world-class BJJ to late MMA entry
- 1:20 – 4:43
Jeet Kune Do upbringing and discovering Brazilian jiu-jitsu in Oklahoma
Lovato traces his martial arts roots to his father’s Jeet Kune Do background and a childhood filled with diverse striking and weapons training. He recounts how Brazilian jiu-jitsu entered their lives and the sacrifices required to train from Oklahoma.
- •Father taught JKD philosophy: “MMA before MMA,” influenced by Bruce Lee
- •Early cross-training: boxing, Muay Thai, Escrima, Wing Chun, Silat, more
- •BJJ was rare outside California/Florida/NY; the family traveled extensively to learn
- •Lovato fell in love with guard work and technical “science” of BJJ
- •First Brazil trip at 16 to train and compete at Worlds; first American father-son black belts
- 4:43 – 6:14
Chasing BJJ history: Worlds gold, dominance era, and losing the hunger
Lovato explains his drive to become a world champion after seeing BJ Penn win and how that shaped his competitive BJJ career. Over time, repetitive seasons and familiar opponents dulled the motivational edge, pushing him toward a new challenge.
- •Inspired by BJ Penn’s 2000 Worlds win; goal: next American to win Worlds
- •Achieved Worlds gold in 2007; later medaled eight times overall
- •Wanted a second Worlds gold; stayed in the sport longer to pursue it
- •Competition became routine—same tournaments, same rivals, less “fire”
- •2013 Brazilian Nationals absolute win in Brazil reignited inspiration
- 6:14 – 8:46
From BJJ comfort to MMA calling: why he finally switched
Lovato describes feeling “called” to MMA as a martial artist, initially treating it as a one-fight experiment. Enjoying the process led him to commit more seriously and reconnect with the full-spectrum training from his youth.
- •Motivation shift: BJJ felt comfortable; MMA felt like the next evolution
- •Initially planned “at least one fight” to fulfill martial artist identity
- •After the first MMA fight, he wanted to continue and deepen the craft
- •Maintained supplemental wrestling/judo for No-Gi and ADCC-style rulesets
- •Goal: re-tap into childhood JKD-based, range-complete martial arts mindset
- 8:46 – 17:55
Building an MMA striking system: Curitiba camps and Evolutao Thai
Lovato details how he developed MMA-ready striking through longtime coach Mauricio “Veio” Amado and training in Brazil. He explains Evolutao Thai as a Muay Thai approach engineered for MMA, integrating offense/defense, damage, and takedown realities.
- •Trained striking alongside coaching fighters; met Mauricio Amado in 2008
- •Evolutao Thai: striking that sets up/defends takedowns; MMA-specific defense for small gloves
- •Lovato regularly trains in Curitiba; nine camps for nine fights (often ~2 weeks)
- •Justin Wren shares what felt “different” in the system: movement, timing, defensive structure
- •Lovato credits Mauricio as a key reason he pursued MMA confidently
- 17:55 – 23:27
Shoot Boxe sparring culture, gym-war stories, and managing damage
The conversation turns to Curitiba’s reputation for brutal sparring and how gyms have evolved after learning hard lessons about brain trauma. They discuss how frequently Lovato spars, how he self-regulates intensity, and share famous stories about old-school chaos.
- •Rogan recalls historic Shoot Boxe “gym wars” and concerns about career-shortening damage
- •Lovato: still hardcore, but more controlled; sparring variations occur nearly daily
- •Examples: boxing-only, Muay Thai-only, MMA sparring, wall work, ground-and-pound rounds
- •Sparring with Wanderlei Silva; Lovato points to a scar from training
- •Debate over sparring frequency: Cowboy Cerrone’s reduced sparring, Tony Ferguson’s no-sparring approach, and injury context
- 23:27 – 40:22
Khabib vs Conor aftermath: brawl breakdown, accountability, and promotion ethics
Rogan and the guests analyze UFC 229’s post-fight melee and how the promotion’s build-up encouraged escalation. They weigh personal responsibility (especially Conor’s tactics) against organizational incentives, and argue about what “martial arts values” should look like on the biggest stage.
- •Rogan’s cage-side perspective: chaos felt familiar, but feared further escalation (chairs, serious injuries)
- •Discussion of Zubaira Tukhugov’s involvement and potential consequences
- •Rogan argues the dolly/bus incident was worse than the cage-side scuffle
- •Ethics question: UFC using the bus attack footage in promotional material
- •Martial arts vs theatrics: respect/honor ideals contrasted with hype-driven commerce
- 40:22 – 54:27
Dagestan and honor culture: why some places don’t “play” with disrespect
Justin shares vivid experiences traveling and wrestling in Dagestan and describes cultural norms around respect. The group connects this to why Conor’s style can backfire against fighters from honor-centric environments like Khabib’s.
- •Justin’s Dagestan travel: armed escorts, perceived threats, intense environment
- •Cultural rules: no whistling in public; don’t show soles of feet; quick enforcement
- •Rogan notes Dagestan’s harsh terrain and culture produces toughness and seriousness
- •Khabib’s “honor over money” framing; iconic mountain photo with his father
- •Conor’s psychological warfare works sometimes (Aldo), but can provoke revenge mentality instead
- 54:27 – 1:02:13
Who controls titles? Ali Act, sanctioning bodies, and USADA as a model
They pivot to structural fairness in MMA: rankings, interim titles, and whether promoters should decide title shots. The Muhammad Ali Act comes up as they compare boxing governance and discuss USADA as an example of independent oversight.
- •Rogan critiques promoter-controlled title paths and the blurred line between sport and entertainment
- •Ali Act confusion: transparency requirements for sanctioning bodies; unclear revenue-splitting myths
- •Example grievances: Tony Ferguson stripped after injury; inconsistent interim-title logic
- •USADA discussed as independent enforcement model (testing, whereabouts, penalties)
- •Argument for independent systems to determine contenders and title eligibility
- 1:02:13 – 1:09:13
Tournament formats, PFL/Bellator incentives, and a detour into legendary eating feats
Justin asks about tournament brackets returning to top-level MMA and highlights PFL’s million-dollar format. The group watches a knockout clip, then veers into comedic stories about heavyweight Josh Copeland’s extreme food-challenge exploits and weight transformation.
- •Pros/cons of tournament brackets for identifying true contenders
- •PFL structure: two-round then three-round bouts; commission limits total rounds per night
- •Josh Copeland’s heavyweight KO clip and fight-for-a-million context
- •Copeland’s physique change and training environment in Colorado/Fort Collins
- •Humorous tangent: Rocky Mountain oyster-eating title, 72-oz steak record, and “400 shrimp” story
- 1:09:13 – 1:23:57
Inside Bellator: working with Coker, jiu-jitsu culture, and meeting Saulo & Xande
Lovato explains why he enjoys Bellator’s professionalism and the surprising amount of jiu-jitsu representation among staff. He then tells the origin story of connecting with Saulo Ribeiro and Xande Ribeiro—an encounter that shaped his technical style and career trajectory.
- •Lovato praises Bellator staff culture and Scott Coker; notes jiu-jitsu practitioners in key roles
- •Funny aside: 50 Cent’s Bellator presence tied to champagne branding and promotion
- •Lovato’s first major pro No-Gi event at 19; accepted with “Saulo is in your division, good luck”
- •He reaches finals vs Saulo, loses late, but earns respect and mentorship invitation
- •Brazil training context: ‘gringo’ barriers vs Ribeiro brothers’ openness and support
- 1:23:57 – 1:31:54
Pressure passing DNA: Toledo grind, Airdyne suffering, and injury-proofing the body
Rogan and Lovato dig into the “smothering” top game associated with the Ribeiro lineage and how Lovato evolved from a guard player into a pressure finisher. They segue into common jiu-jitsu injuries and Lovato’s shift toward smarter strength, mobility, and recovery.
- •Lovato’s early years being “destroyed” daily by Saulo/Xande pressure passing and mount control
- •Training setup: small rooms, relentless rounds, and the Airdyne bike as the third training partner
- •Rogan discusses jiu-jitsu injury patterns (back/neck); Lovato shares past neck flare-ups
- •Lovato’s modern S&C philosophy: clean movement, kettlebells/mace, sleds, trap-bar deadlifts, reverse hyper
- •Emphasis on active recovery (walks, yoga, hanging) and avoiding overtraining before fights
- 1:31:54 – 1:41:30
Justin Wren relocates to Oklahoma: Lovato’s coaching style and the gi debate
Justin explains why he moved to Oklahoma to train under Lovato—crediting Lovato’s documentary, crushing top pressure, and unusually precise coaching. They discuss why Lovato insists on gi training for culture and technical depth, and how it refined Justin’s grappling for MMA.
- •Justin’s reasons for moving: relationships in OKC + belief in Lovato as coach/competitor
- •Lovato’s teaching: incremental “inch-by-inch” corrections that immediately change outcomes
- •Gym culture concern: integrating a pro fighter into a family academy with kids—Justin earns trust
- •Gi as “real jiu-jitsu” for Lovato: detail, friction, defense, and long-chain consequences of mistakes
- •Justin: gi forces technique over power; improves his no-gi understanding once the gi comes off
- 1:41:30 – 2:03:33
Fight for the Forgotten: bullying prevention, Heroes in Waiting, and the fundraising tournament
Justin and Lovato outline how their training partnership expanded into shared philanthropy—water wells abroad and anti-bullying work at home. They present the Heroes in Waiting campaign: a fundraising competition that equips academies with bullying-prevention curriculum while funding clean water projects.
- •Academy fundraiser success story: goal $4,200; raised $14,400 through Lovato’s school
- •Justin’s bullying history, mental health stats, and the rise of cyberbullying driving youth suicide risk
- •David’s Law (Texas) and efforts to bring similar cyberbullying tools to Oklahoma
- •Heroes in Waiting curriculum: bystander action can stop bullying quickly; character development focus
- •Crowdfunding tournament details: fightfortheforgotten.org/heroes, gym/individual prizes, and water-well impact targets
