CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 2:32
Herb Dean joins: why refereeing is the sport’s toughest non-fighter job
Joe welcomes Herb Dean and immediately frames refereeing as MMA’s second-hardest job after fighting. They compare the challenges of live commentary vs. live officiating, and what “responsibility” really means in both roles.
- •Joe’s argument: referees carry immense responsibility and scrutiny
- •Herb jokes that Joe’s six-hour commentary shifts are also difficult
- •Calling live action vs. commentating old fights (and having to “act” surprised)
- •Respecting the audience while accurately describing what’s happening
- 2:32 – 4:12
Old Pride broadcasts, spoilers, and why knowing results ruins fights
They reminisce about the days when Pride events aired late or were delayed, forcing fans to avoid spoilers. The conversation expands to modern spoiler culture via texts and social media.
- •Waiting days (or longer) to see Pride events in the U.S.
- •The pain of friends spoiling outcomes right before you watch
- •Modern problem: texts instantly spoil boxing/MMA results
- •Why even great fights feel less exciting when you know the ending
- 4:12 – 6:09
“Battle joy” and the savage mindset: Gaethje, Diego Sanchez, and war stories
Joe and Herb discuss fighters who seem happiest in chaos, using Justin Gaethje as a modern example. Herb shares a memorable Russia fight that embodied pure “battle joy.”
- •Gaethje’s ferocity and willingness to engage as a rare trait
- •Herb’s story refereeing an all-out war in Russia (ACA)
- •Defining “battle joy” and recognizing it in certain athletes
- •Diego Sanchez as a classic example of loving the fight
- 6:09 – 9:59
Bare-knuckle reality check: brutal cuts, wrapped hands, and what’s truly dangerous
Joe revisits his former pro–bare-knuckle stance after seeing how badly fighters get lacerated. They break down why “bare knuckle” still includes heavy hand wrapping, and debate which strikes cause the worst damage.
- •Knight vs. Lobov as a hard-to-watch example: extreme facial damage
- •Hands are fragile—wrapping prevents breaks even without gloves
- •Elbows/knees vs. punches: what’s most dangerous for cuts and trauma
- •Wheel kicks and head kicks as top-tier fight-ending damage
- 9:59 – 11:17
Unorthodox submissions: Oleynik’s Ezekiel, scarf-hold chokes, and oddball grappling
They geek out over uncommon submission choices that still work at elite levels. Oleynik’s grip strength and ability to finish from surprising positions leads into broader submission history (Barnett/Lister, Cro Cop).
- •Oleynik finishing Ezekiels from mount/guard—why it’s so unusual
- •Scarf-hold chokes: legitimacy and notable examples
- •Herb’s memory of refereeing Oleynik vs. Cro Cop in Russia
- •How rare techniques keep evolving even deep into MMA’s lifespan
- 11:17 – 15:44
Askren vs. Lawler stoppage controversy: limp arms, bulldog chokes, and neck danger
Joe and Herb do a detailed post-mortem on the debated finish, focusing on what a referee can and cannot infer in real time. Herb explains why bulldog chokes create unique urgency due to potential cervical spine damage.
- •The “thumbs up” debate vs. an arm going limp as an unconsciousness cue
- •Why some chokes are easier to referee than others (RNC vs. bulldog)
- •Ref mindset: evaluate threat, protect fighter, accept scrutiny, keep improving
- •Herb’s perspective on the fight’s chaos and near-stoppage moments
- 15:44 – 28:28
Neck-crank nightmares: The Executioner, twisters, and the risks refs can’t ignore
The discussion widens from bulldog chokes to other high-risk neck manipulations. They describe the “Executioner” position, twisters, and why some submissions create paralysis-level danger even when legal.
- •Explaining “The Executioner” concept and why it’s terrifyingly strong
- •Herb’s story of a tap leading to a fighter temporarily unable to move
- •Twister mechanics: the long setup, inevitability, and extreme pressure
- •Critique of sensational media takes that ignore injury risk
- 28:28 – 49:06
PEDs and TJ Dillashaw’s EPO: detection, legacy damage, and the testing time-machine problem
They react to TJ Dillashaw’s positive EPO test and what it means for fighter health, fairness, and history. The conversation becomes a broader debate about how far back organizations should retest old samples with new methods.
- •EPO risks (including stroke) and why injection makes it hard to excuse
- •Retesting old samples: where to draw the line and how it affects records
- •USADA testing frequency, early-morning disruptions, and training impact
- •Legacy implications: being great and still tarnishing achievements
- 49:06 – 50:57
Safety logic in a violent sport: cage-climbing bans, celebrations, and unintended chaos
They point out the absurdity of strict ‘safety’ rules in a sport built on damage, using cage-climbing and flips as examples. The tone shifts into comedic hypotheticals about post-fight accidents and social media shock content.
- •Why commissions discourage cage-climbing and flips after fights
- •Humor: what if a celebratory flip injures a doctor or official?
- •Derrick Lewis’ Instagram and viral injury videos as guilty-viewing culture
- •The contradiction of policing celebration while sanctioning violence
- 50:57 – 58:47
Dolphins, paddleboards, surfing attempts, and Joe’s shark paranoia
A viral dolphin collision video sparks a detour into ocean hazards. They compare paddleboarding and surfing difficulty, and then ramp into shark videos and why open water triggers primal fear.
- •Dolphin ‘body-check’ video and debate over intent
- •Paddleboarding balance vs. surfing challenge and learning curve
- •Shark encounters: suddenness, helplessness, and visibility in the ocean
- •Why Joe avoids surfing: sharks and the ‘you can’t see below you’ factor
- 58:47 – 1:03:53
Herb’s love of Russia: travel mindset, safety, and the Alabama ‘taser’ story lesson
Joe asks why Herb enjoys working in Russia; Herb explains how travel shaped him and why he avoids pre-judging places. He tells a wild story from Alabama involving cops, photos, and being pushed into tasing an officer—ultimately a lesson in assumptions.
- •Travel philosophy: take places at face value and form your own experience
- •Herb’s first Russia trip (1995) and ongoing work there
- •Alabama story: friendly cops, bizarre bonding, and the taser incident
- •Lesson: stereotypes and expectations often collapse in real experiences
- 1:03:53 – 1:09:45
Cyrillic, languages, and Herb’s multilingual family advantage
They nerd out on the Cyrillic alphabet and why it confuses English readers. Herb reveals his wife is Russian and also speaks Chinese, making travel and navigation in those countries far easier.
- •Basics of Cyrillic: letters that look familiar but sound different
- •Why reading signs becomes manageable once you learn the alphabet rules
- •Herb’s wife: Russian + Chinese + English (and quickly improving Spanish)
- •How language complexity and conjugation make Russian difficult to learn
- 1:09:45 – 1:11:01
Grozny and Chechnya: rebuilding after war and the ‘rebirth’ energy Herb felt
Herb describes visiting Grozny in Chechnya and seeing a city transforming after conflict. Joe probes the history briefly, while Herb emphasizes the pride and forward momentum he sensed on the ground.
- •Grozny’s location in Chechnya and its recent history of war
- •Before-and-after visuals of destruction and reconstruction
- •Community pride and shared momentum in rebuilding
- •Herb’s broader appreciation for diverse cultures within Russia
- 1:11:01 – 1:14:16
How Herb became a referee: King of the Cage roots, early UFC path, and leaving competition
Herb traces his officiating origin story through early King of the Cage shows and the unusual jobs he did before reffing. He explains why he stopped fighting (five bouts) and chose refereeing as his true lane.
- •Traveling for MMA starting internationally around 2003–2004
- •King of the Cage era: reservations, early days, meeting Joe back then
- •Starting as an inspector/official helper before being offered a ref slot
- •Conflict-of-interest pressure and choosing refereeing over fighting
- 1:14:16 – 1:32:58
Refereeing philosophy: avoid unnecessary standups, ignore boos, and resist promoter pressure
Joe and Herb dive into the most common officiating mistake: breaking clinches/ground exchanges that are actively progressing. Herb explains how he sets expectations in pre-fight instructions and refuses to follow outside pressure that would compromise integrity.
- •Clinch and cage work as real, fight-deciding progress—not “stalling”
- •Pre-fight instructions: what Herb considers ‘work’ vs. ‘stale’
- •Example critique: separating Maia from Usman while Maia was advancing
- •Herb’s stance: promoters/commissions may demand things, but he won’t comply
- 1:32:58 – 1:44:17
Rabbit holes and changing opinions: conspiracies, aliens, and why flexibility matters
They pivot into how people get pulled into conspiracies, especially when life is less busy. Joe shares an aliens binge and the Bob Lazar/Area 51 story; Herb reflects on past conspiracy obsessions and the importance of admitting what you don’t know.
- •Joe’s Bob Lazar documentary case: claims, corroborations, and questions
- •Herb’s past: AIDS conspiracy pamphlets and why they felt persuasive
- •The mental effect of weed and why paranoia/conspiracies can spiral
- •Meta-point: being willing to change opinions and avoid ‘winning’ arguments
- 1:44:17 – 1:54:24
Universal basic income and the burden of money: meaning, debt pressure, and ‘freedom’
Joe recounts talking with Andrew Yang and debates whether UBI solves the deeper human need for meaning. They connect financial stress to mental health and describe how a single windfall can lift the ‘weight vest’ of constant bills.
- •Automation as the UBI driver; concerns about purpose and identity
- •Possible societal benefits: reduced crime, illness, and instability
- •Debt as a constant cognitive fog and behavior driver
- •Money as freedom-from-anxiety, not necessarily happiness itself
- 1:54:24 – 2:51:59
Bare-knuckle business ethics: docking pay for ‘lack of action’ and the danger of spectacle
They return to bare-knuckle fighting, reacting to a promoter publicly docking a fighter’s purse for ‘running.’ Joe and Herb criticize the incentives this creates and compare it to other flawed enforcement tools like yellow cards.
- •Promoter docking pay: ‘fight or you don’t get paid’ and legality concerns
- •Why this pressures fighters into unnecessary damage-taking
- •Yellow cards and misguided anti-backstep rules in some organizations
- •Joe’s renewed doubt about bare-knuckle after seeing extreme facial lacerations
