JRE MMA Show #61 with Herb Dean

1. 0:00 – 2:32

   Herb Dean joins: why refereeing is the sport’s toughest non-fighter job

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      ... five, four, three. I was good that day, but then the next day, like, oh. Live. And we're live, Herb Dean. How are you, sir?

   2. HDHerb Dean0:09

      I'm good. How about yourself?

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:10

      So glad we're finally doing this.

   4. HDHerb Dean0:12

      Yeah. (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      You and I have talked about doing a podcast for the last, like, three years.

   6. HDHerb Dean0:15

      Yeah, yeah. See, yeah, you know, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm glad to be on it. Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      (laughs)

   8. HDHerb Dean0:19

      Hang out with you, talk to you for a little bit.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:21

      D- I think, and I've said this before, you have the hardest job in the sport, other than the fighters. There's the fighters, obviously, they have the hardest job. You have the second-hardest job. Referee is the second-hardest job in the sport. It's a fucking hard job. Like, you have so much responsibility.

   10. HDHerb Dean0:36

       Yeah, I think you have a really hard job.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:38

       I think-

   12. HDHerb Dean0:39

       I think the talk... How long do you talk for?

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       T- it's just, uh, hours, six hours.

   14. HDHerb Dean0:43

       Six hours, and-

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:44

       Yeah.

   16. HDHerb Dean0:44

       ... and sometimes there's not always something interesting to talk about. And, uh, or sometimes, yeah, so I think, uh, it's amazing to be able to talk about that, uh-

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:52

       It's not that e- easy. It's not that hard, rather. It's pretty easy. I mean, it's just a bunch of stuff's happening-

   18. HDHerb Dean0:57

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:57

       ... and you're calling it. And I'm, I'm a blabbermouth, so I can't shut the fuck up anyway. So if there's spots where there's, it's not that interesting-

   20. HDHerb Dean1:04

       Okay, I see what you mean.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:05

       ... I'll just find something interesting to say. (laughs)

   22. HDHerb Dean1:06

       All right. (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:07

       But it's not that... It's, you know, uh, in terms of, like, what's, what's happening is happening. You know what I mean? The guy's getting hit, the guy's getting choked. There's a lot of crazy action going on. And it's really f- pretty easy if you're a lifelong fan of martial arts, like I am-

   24. HDHerb Dean1:22

       Right, right, right.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:23

       ... to call it. You know, as long as you're enthusiastic-

   26. HDHerb Dean1:25

       Yeah, yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:25

       ... and you're interested in d- And you, you know, you gotta treat it with respect. You gotta treat w- it for what it is, you know? You're, you're trying to entertain people.

   28. HDHerb Dean1:32

       Mm-hmm.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:32

       You're trying to, uh, use the, your words in the most, uh, pleasing way possible. You know, you're trying to massage people's ears in, in a way, you know? You're trying to, you're trying to also represent what you're seeing and how special it is.

   30. HDHerb Dean1:47

       Yeah.
2. 2:32 – 4:12

   Old Pride broadcasts, spoilers, and why knowing results ruins fights

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:32

      'Cause you reme- Do you remember when Pride-

   2. HDHerb Dean2:34

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:34

      ... would come on at, like, three o'clock in the morning?

   4. HDHerb Dean2:35

      Uh-huh.

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:35

      And we wouldn't get it till, like, a, a day later or something like that?

   6. HDHerb Dean2:39

      Yeah. Oh, I remember one time... Oh, the worst is when one of your friends tells you, 'cause you, you, you wait, you don't look at the internet.

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:45

      Yeah.

   8. HDHerb Dean2:45

      I remember I wa- I was training. I, I think I went and I trained with Savat one time. I don't know if you know him.

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:49

      Sure.

   10. HDHerb Dean2:50

       Savat Leung? Yeah, we had been in the car the whole time rolling. I was like, "When I get home, I'm gonna watch Pride." And then right before he... I dropped him off at his house. Right before he gets out the car, he goes, "Oh, Wanderlei Silva lost." And then he just runs in the-

   11. JRJoe Rogan3:00

       Oh, no!

   12. HDHerb Dean3:02

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan3:02

       Oh, no.

   14. HDHerb Dean3:02

       Or something like that. It was... I think it was that. He said something like that.

   15. JRJoe Rogan3:05

       Yeah, we would have to wait sometimes, like, there was a f- couple events where I feel like it was, like, a week or something crazy, wasn't it?

   16. HDHerb Dean3:12

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan3:13

       So you had to, like, stay off the internet for a week not-

   18. HDHerb Dean3:15

       Yeah, yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan3:16

       (laughs)

   20. HDHerb Dean3:16

       Which is, which is good for me, you know? I could do it. But, yeah, uh, but you got to also avoid all your friends who are little internet fanatics.

   21. JRJoe Rogan3:23

       Right.

   22. HDHerb Dean3:23

       They start talking and you're like, "Stop, stop."

   23. JRJoe Rogan3:24

       Yes.

   24. HDHerb Dean3:25

       "I don't, I don't know who won yet."

   25. JRJoe Rogan3:26

       T- t- these days, it's so bad, like if I go and I do a comedy show on the night of, like, a big boxing match or something like that-

   26. HDHerb Dean3:33

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan3:33

       ... like, my text messages tell me. Like, s- people start sending me to... They, they, they can't wait to spoil shit. They're like, "Damn, Golovkin got robbed." I was like, "What? What happ- Ah, fuck!"

   28. HDHerb Dean3:45

       (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan3:45

       And then I don't get to just watch it. I wanna just come home and hit the DVR and watch it. I'll keep the fuck away from the news.

   30. HDHerb Dean3:52

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I do.
3. 4:12 – 6:09

   “Battle joy” and the savage mindset: Gaethje, Diego Sanchez, and war stories

   1. JRJoe Rogan4:12

      Like, I heard that, uh, Gaethje knocked out Barboza.

   2. HDHerb Dean4:15

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan4:15

      And I was like, "Wow! Holy shit."

   4. HDHerb Dean4:17

      Yeah, I didn't see that. I haven't seen it.

   5. JRJoe Rogan4:18

      Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Gaethje's a savage.

   6. HDHerb Dean4:23

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan4:23

      He's a savage, man. He's, like, got a w- a, a special kind of savagery. There's somet- You know, like, I, I guess it's all judged on a spectrum.

   8. HDHerb Dean4:33

      Hmm, yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan4:33

      There's some dudes that are just so ferocious, they're just so willing-

   10. HDHerb Dean4:36

       No, now he does, yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan4:37

       ... to wade into battle.

   12. HDHerb Dean4:38

       Into a... Yeah, and to engage, and yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan4:40

       That guy just engages. It's a weird willingness to engage, almost, like a almost fearless willingness to engage that's very unusual.

   14. HDHerb Dean4:47

       And it, and it seems like he, uh, like, yeah, wha- and when he's in there getting it, that's when, uh, it seems like he's as... at his happiest, right?

   15. JRJoe Rogan4:54

       (laughs) It's crazy.

   16. HDHerb Dean4:55

       (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan4:56

       It's crazy.

   18. HDHerb Dean4:56

       Yeah. I refed a fight like that, um... I've, so, like, uh, I, I ref a lot of fights in, um, in Russia. So I, I, uh, refereed a fight with, uh, this guy, uh, Balaev, uh, Murat Balaev versus Salman, uh, Ma... It was for a championship, uh, ACA. Man, these, these guys went to war. He, um, he hurt him early on, and, uh, had him, you know, almost put out. And then he, uh, came back. Uh, Balaev lost, but it was his, his... I mean, as a older gentleman, he's over 40, pushing the pressure and made a really, uh, uh... Yeah, but you could... I saw that energy come out, like when he was struggling through the hard times, you could tell that, like, you know, some sort of battle joy was on him. You know what I mean? He's that kinda guy.

   19. JRJoe Rogan5:41

       Battle joy. (laughs)

   20. HDHerb Dean5:42

       Battle joy, you know what I mean? Yeah, uh-huh. You hear it, like, "Oh, he's in it," you know?

   21. JRJoe Rogan5:46

       Battle joy is real shit, right?

   22. HDHerb Dean5:48

       Yeah, uh-huh, battle joy.

   23. JRJoe Rogan5:49

       Diego Sanches is all full of battle joy, right?

   24. HDHerb Dean5:51

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, uh-huh, yeah, yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan5:52

       He's a perfect example.

   26. HDHerb Dean5:53

       Yeah. It didn't die with the Vikings. That's the thing. (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan5:56

       (laughs)

   28. HDHerb Dean5:56

       People are experiencing battle joy to this day.

   29. JRJoe Rogan5:59

       Yeah.

   30. HDHerb Dean5:59

       Oh, yeah, there's my man right there.
4. 6:09 – 9:59

   Bare-knuckle reality check: brutal cuts, wrapped hands, and what’s truly dangerous

   1. JRJoe Rogan6:09

      God damn, that dude's face is busted up. Yeah, it's, um... Did you see the bare knuckle fighting?

   2. HDHerb Dean6:17

      I haven't watched any of them yet.

   3. JRJoe Rogan6:19

      I watched some exchanges between... Uh, it's just, it's hard to watch. It's weird. I, I was a big proponent of-

   4. HDHerb Dean6:26

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan6:27

      ... bare knuckle. I was like, "They should fight bare knuckle." 'Cause it's ridiculous that you pad up only your gloves, but you don't pad up your elbows or your shins-

   6. HDHerb Dean6:33

      Right, right, right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan6:33

      ... or your knees.

   8. HDHerb Dean6:35

      Uh-huh.

   9. JRJoe Rogan6:35

      But, um, Jason Knight versus Artem Lobov was, uh... It was a weird fight to watch, man. I mean, they beat the fuck out of each other.

   10. HDHerb Dean6:43

       I heard, yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:44

       And they, they both came out of it super cut up, man. Like a lifetime's worth of cuts in one fight.

   12. HDHerb Dean6:52

       Yeah. And you, you saw that. It's like... I think it's gonna be, uh... It looks like the-

   13. JRJoe Rogan6:56

       Jesus.

   14. HDHerb Dean6:56

       I saw their faces. That looks like, uh, it's gonna be some long healing.

   15. JRJoe Rogan6:59

       Yeah, man. I mean, these guys beat the shit out of each other, bare knuckle. And it's, it is kinda weird that you do recogni-... First of all, they're not really. They're bare knuckle, but they're not bare wrists. Like look how-

   16. HDHerb Dean7:11

       Right.

   17. JRJoe Rogan7:11

       ... their hands are all wrapped up to prevent them from breaking.

   18. HDHerb Dean7:14

       Uh-huh.

   19. JRJoe Rogan7:14

       Which is interesting. It shows us how fragile our hands really are.

   20. HDHerb Dean7:19

       No, no. Yeah, yeah. And so that's why I, I didn't really think that, uh, bare knuckle was gonna be that ex-... I knew, uh, that more, uh, intense. But when I'm seeing some of these matches, they are, uh, really intense. But at the end of the day, I think, the bottom line's still the most dangerous weapons, I think, are the elbows and knees, right?

   21. JRJoe Rogan7:37

       Yeah, uh, for cuts, for sure. But-

   22. HDHerb Dean7:40

       And for damage. I mean, remember those-

   23. JRJoe Rogan7:42

       Kicks.

   24. HDHerb Dean7:42

       ... knees that Jon Jones hit, uh, Brandon Vera with. Remember those elbows Jon Jones hit Brandon Vera with?

   25. JRJoe Rogan7:45

       Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah.

   26. HDHerb Dean7:48

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan7:48

       No, uh, d- John's i-... From the mount position, from the top, he's got some of the most horrific elbows of all time.

   28. HDHerb Dean7:54

       Right. But not from, even from the h-... From the guard, right?

   29. JRJoe Rogan7:57

       Yeah.

   30. HDHerb Dean7:57

       Yep. From anywhere.
5. 9:59 – 11:17

   Unorthodox submissions: Oleynik’s Ezekiel, scarf-hold chokes, and oddball grappling

   1. JRJoe Rogan9:59

      How about that Russian dude? What is his name? The guy that Oleynik who, who-

   2. HDHerb Dean10:03

      Oh, yeah. Alexey.

   3. JRJoe Rogan10:03

      ... gets people with the fucking... He gets people with an Ezekiel from the mount. You're mounting him-

   4. HDHerb Dean10:08

      Right. Yeah. Uh-huh.

   5. JRJoe Rogan10:08

      ... and he Ezekiels you. (laughs)

   6. HDHerb Dean10:09

      Yeah, yeah. All the time, right?

   7. JRJoe Rogan10:11

      All the time.

   8. HDHerb Dean10:11

      Yeah, yeah. Ezekiel will mount. He gets it from, from your guard. He's in your guard-

   9. JRJoe Rogan10:15

      Yeah.

   10. HDHerb Dean10:15

       ... he Ezekiels you. And, uh, he's... Yeah, and that's exactly the guy. Like he's that guy who, who, uh, everybody-

   11. JRJoe Rogan10:22

       Look at this.

   12. HDHerb Dean10:22

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan10:23

       That is a crazy grip the way he does it.

   14. HDHerb Dean10:25

       Mm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan10:25

       You can see how tight it is. That is-

   16. HDHerb Dean10:27

       Right.

   17. JRJoe Rogan10:28

       ... amazing that he does that.

   18. HDHerb Dean10:29

       No, he has grip like no... 'Cause he... I mean, he, uh, he does scarf chokes to... Scarf hold chokes to people. He's done it to quite a few. And I seen he laces it up a little different. Think he did one. And, uh... But he, he does stuff that nobody else does.

   19. JRJoe Rogan10:45

       Scarf hold chokes are legit. You gotta remember, like, um, Josh Barnett tapped out Dean Lister with a scarf hold choke.

   20. HDHerb Dean10:50

       That's true. Yeah. He... But he... I think he's done two people with that, right? He's did... He did that one... He did one guy in the UFC with it. And, uh, I think he did it to, um, to Cro Cop. I refereed him and Cro Cop in, in Russia once.

   21. JRJoe Rogan11:02

       Ah.

   22. HDHerb Dean11:02

       In Moscow. And he, uh, he did one to Cro Cop, man.

   23. JRJoe Rogan11:07

       Yeah, that scarf hold choke, if you've got a real, like... You know, like that guy. Like Oleynik does, that kind of-

   24. HDHerb Dean11:11

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan11:11

       ... death grip.

   26. HDHerb Dean11:12

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan11:12

       Those guys... Which brings us to the, the last fight, man. The perfect-

   28. HDHerb Dean11:15

       Yeah, can we speak. This grip.

   29. JRJoe Rogan11:16

       Yeah.

   30. HDHerb Dean11:16

       Death grip, yeah. All right.

6. 11:17 – 15:44

   Askren vs. Lawler stoppage controversy: limp arms, bulldog chokes, and neck danger

   1. JRJoe Rogan11:17

      Yeah. Uh, that Ben Askren fight. Dude, I watched that fight. Uh, I've watched that finish like 10 times trying to figure out what happened or wh- whether he was out or whether he wasn't out. I was pretty convinced that at one point in time he went out, and then Kamaru Usman changed my mind. Kamaru Usman showed the... We watched the video tape together. He's like, "No, no, he's giving a thumbs up." And I'm like, "Shit."

   2. HDHerb Dean11:41

      Yeah, okay. So I'm still... 'Cause, 'cause the angles I've seen haven't been the best. I'm trying to see this thumbs up. Was the thumb going up or was the thumb in a thumbs up position going this way?

   3. JRJoe Rogan11:50

      Right, like on the... As the arm drops was the thumb in a thumbs up position?

   4. HDHerb Dean11:52

      So like... Okay, so when I give somebody a thumbs up, like I'm gonna say to somebody, "Good job."

   5. JRJoe Rogan11:56

      You want it to be... You want this.

   6. HDHerb Dean11:56

      Good job, buddy.

   7. JRJoe Rogan11:57

      Right. Good job, buddy.

   8. HDHerb Dean11:58

      Thumbs up. Yeah. (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan11:59

      (laughs) That's what you want.

   10. HDHerb Dean12:00

       That's what I wanna do, you know.

   11. JRJoe Rogan12:01

       Right.

   12. HDHerb Dean12:01

       So I, I mean, I don't know. Like I mean, I... So what I'm... Nobody is gonna know whether he was conscious or unconscious. What I saw, I saw everything that would indicate I'm seeing an unconscious fighter. I see an arm go limp for no reason whatsoever. And, um...... so that's what I, that's what I'm, have to work with. 'Cause that's what, you know, we don't know what someone's feeling or whatever. We just see, if they're doing something that doesn't make sense and you see an arm go limp at that time, you're gonna assume that the person's unconscious.

   13. JRJoe Rogan12:30

       We assumed it-

   14. HDHerb Dean12:31

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan12:31

       ... as the broadcast team, we assumed it too.

   16. HDHerb Dean12:32

       Yeah, I can hear you guys. And, and, and that I'm supposed to do certain things. And like, so here's the thing with that choke. When I'm refereeing fights, you know, there's some times where, you know, some positions are anxiety. Like, uh, you know, you see two guys going after leg locks. You see a noodle mess of legs, and you know you gotta, you're gonna have to help one guy out and figure out who's tapping him, make sure you're on the right arm. When I see some chokes, a rear naked choke, especially the guy in the back face up, I take a sigh of relief. My job just got so much easier. This guy, you know, it's not like he's gonna go out, and then a second take some extreme amount of damage. He may go out. I'll have a second to make sure he's... Not even a second, a half a breath to make sure he's okay, and then let it go out, and he's not gonna take any other damage. A bulldog choke, we have... Anytime you have a choke where somebody's, where, where there's pressure on the neck, and they're spin- bending the C-spine backwards like that, that's a, that's a rough situation for me. So I see someone go limp, and I know that on top of it, they're no longer putting tension on their neck and their neck is just being bent, I can't... I, you know, I can't see that I should do something different than that. 'Cause that's the, um... I, I like to talk to people about this. I like to talk to people who have opinions about fights, especially people who are interested and who they know what they're talking about. Um, because if I always have a situation, if I always have a mindset that I'm always doing the right thing, I can't get better. So I'm gonna have to look at something and say, "Is there a, you know, a teachable moment there? Is there a way I can learn from this? And is there a way I could do something different?" And no, I don't thi-... I think with that same situation where the arm going limp, with that type of a choke on someone, I don't know of a defense that requires the arm... You know what I mean?

   17. JRJoe Rogan14:15

       Yeah.

   18. HDHerb Dean14:15

       I, I would think the arm should be doing something else. I, at this time, I don't, um, I don't see that I should do something different. You know, I'm always interested and always looking and always... I, I love these type of conversations, but right now, I can't think of s- you know.

   19. JRJoe Rogan14:29

       Yeah.

   20. HDHerb Dean14:29

       And to tell you something, it was an amazing fight.

   21. JRJoe Rogan14:31

       It was.

   22. HDHerb Dean14:32

       Yeah, it was, it was inc-... I mean, first of all, it was the first time I seen... I refereed Ben Askren. I don't think I'd refereed him before. And, you know, when you're... Uh, man, his pre- his pressure is something special. It's not the normal... And, uh, the way Robbie dealt with it, and Robbie had him in, he had him in trouble.

   23. JRJoe Rogan14:50

       Yeah.

   24. HDHerb Dean14:50

       You know, I was so close to stopping that fight.

   25. JRJoe Rogan14:52

       When they were on the ground?

   26. HDHerb Dean14:53

       Yeah, so many times.

   27. JRJoe Rogan14:54

       Oh my God.

   28. HDHerb Dean14:54

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan14:54

       Robbie was hitting him with some bombs.

   30. HDHerb Dean14:56

       Yeah, the, the, the amount of respect I have for those two athletes, man, it's like... So that's, so that's the thing is, you know, we never wanna see anything that could make you, uh, have a feeling that it's inconclusive, but I can't think of what else I should've done. But, you know, I mean, especially for that, that fight for those two guys, you know.
7. 15:44 – 28:28

   Neck-crank nightmares: The Executioner, twisters, and the risks refs can’t ignore

   1. HDHerb Dean15:44

      I've, I've had, uh, some chokes where there, uh... I've, I've refereed a fight where a guy did one of these moves. I... You had a move for it, uh, a technique where he's bending the spine backwards-

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:54

      Twister?

   3. HDHerb Dean15:55

      It wasn't a twister. Um, the... I think guys have a name for it. You probably call it The Executioner.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:58

      Do you know what The Executioner is?

   5. HDHerb Dean16:00

      So that's what it was.

   6. JRJoe Rogan16:01

      That's what it is.

   7. HDHerb Dean16:01

      That's what it is.

   8. JRJoe Rogan16:02

      Can I explai- explain it to people? The, what that is is like if a guy is, uh-

   9. HDHerb Dean16:06

      Okay, tell... Not to cut you off.

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:07

       Okay.

   11. HDHerb Dean16:07

       So for so long, I've never really wanted to talk about it 'cause people weren't doing it. This was years ago I saw it, but now if there's a name for it, I guess it's okay. (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:16

       (laughs)

   13. HDHerb Dean16:16

       But you hadn't seen a lot of people doing it before, right?

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:18

       Well, we, uh, we started doing it in 10th Planet, uh, a few years back. It's... I think people have done it. What it is basically, folks, it's like a guillotine from the back. Um, it's like taking a re- you have like rear naked choke hooks, but instead of choking a guy this way, which is how you would do it, which is, uh, wrap your forearm underneath his neck and wrap the other arm behind his head. Instead of doing that, you wrap your arm all the way around the front, like a guillotine hold, but from the back, and you have ungodly leverage.

   15. HDHerb Dean16:51

       Right.

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:51

       It's ungodly how much pressure you can put on someone's neck. And our, our friend Scott Epstein, he, uh, he used it quite a few times, so we called it The Executioner. Is that it there?

   17. HDHerb Dean17:02

       Oh, actually I'm trying to-

   18. JRJoe Rogan17:02

       I think so.

   19. HDHerb Dean17:02

       ... find a picture of one.

   20. NANarrator17:03

       He's about to pull this arm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan17:04

       Oh.

   22. NANarrator17:04

       Is that what he's gonna do?

   23. HDHerb Dean17:05

       Oh, no.

   24. NANarrator17:06

       Is that it.

   25. JRJoe Rogan17:06

       No, this is, this is The Executioner choke. This is a different choke.

   26. NANarrator17:09

       Oh.

   27. JRJoe Rogan17:09

       Uh, he calls it The Executioner.

   28. NANarrator17:12

       I looked that up and nothing came up. I just-

   29. HDHerb Dean17:13

       Okay.

   30. JRJoe Rogan17:13

       ... tried to spell it.
8. 28:28 – 49:06

   PEDs and TJ Dillashaw’s EPO: detection, legacy damage, and the testing time-machine problem

   1. NANarrator28:28

      This TJ thing is a bummer.

   2. HDHerb Dean28:30

      Yeah.

   3. NANarrator28:30

      That's a bummer.

   4. JRJoe Rogan28:31

      If you, you don't know what we're talking about, TJ Dillashaw tested positive for injectable EPO, which is a serious performance-enhancing substance, and i- uh, in some circumstances, according to Jeff Novitzky, it's given people strokes. Um, and I had heard this too, that, like, young guys doing, like, Tour de France-type shit would have strokes-

   5. HDHerb Dean28:52

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JRJoe Rogan28:52

      ... 'cause they were taking too much EPO. 'Cause, you know, like, if you're supposed to take one, "Take two, fuck it. Let me beat everybody."

   7. HDHerb Dean28:59

      Right, right, right, right, right, right. Uh-huh.

   8. JRJoe Rogan28:59

      That's the mentality of those savages. (laughs)

   9. HDHerb Dean29:00

      That's the mentality. Anybody who was gonna do that-

   10. JRJoe Rogan29:02

       Yeah.

   11. HDHerb Dean29:02

       ... yeah, that, you know... I mean-

   12. NANarrator29:04

       That shit turns your, your, your blood to paint.

   13. HDHerb Dean29:07

       And I think that's the, I guess that's probably the discipline, right? Of how people were always getting away with things beforehand, right? Is to try to-

   14. NANarrator29:14

       Mm-hmm.

   15. HDHerb Dean29:14

       ... uh, maybe try to do it in a way where they're, uh, won't get caught. But I think that's, like, you know, if, if this much is good, then-

   16. JRJoe Rogan29:21

       Yeah.

   17. HDHerb Dean29:21

       ... this much more is gonna be better, and-

   18. NANarrator29:23

       Yeah.

   19. HDHerb Dean29:23

       ... yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan29:23

       And we know guys who've done that with TRT, you know. There was a few TRT tests where they... When TRT was legal.

   21. HDHerb Dean29:29

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JRJoe Rogan29:30

       Testosterone replacement therapy. Um, where w- you would hear about guys testing, like, 1400s, 1470, like, which is insane. It's, like, superhuman. No person's ever l- lived that has 1400, uh, like, as a, a natural walking around testosterone level. That's crazy hyperhuman.

   23. HDHerb Dean29:48

       Right.

   24. JRJoe Rogan29:48

       But they just get these benefits from that.

   25. HDHerb Dean29:50

       Well, some of these people, though, who walk around naturally, I wonder if they've never been tested, though.

   26. JRJoe Rogan29:54

       That's true.

   27. HDHerb Dean29:55

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan29:55

       Right.

   29. HDHerb Dean29:55

       Some of these people I see walking around, I'm like, "Man."

   30. NANarrator29:57

       Genetic freaks. Yeah.
9. 49:06 – 50:57

   Safety logic in a violent sport: cage-climbing bans, celebrations, and unintended chaos

   1. HDHerb Dean49:06

      Well, there's a lot of things they say. You know that we don't like the fighters to jump on the top of the cage, too-

   2. JRJoe Rogan49:10

      Yeah, it's hilarious.

   3. HDHerb Dean49:11

      ... because it's unsafe.

   4. JRJoe Rogan49:11

      Yeah.

   5. HDHerb Dean49:11

      It's because it's unsafe.

   6. JRJoe Rogan49:12

      They're just kicking each other. (laughs)

   7. HDHerb Dean49:13

      They're kicking each other in the face.

   8. JRJoe Rogan49:14

      (laughs)

   9. HDHerb Dean49:15

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Hey, get off... Get down off of that cage.

   10. JRJoe Rogan49:18

       And people get mad.

   11. HDHerb Dean49:18

       What are you doing up there celebrating?

   12. JRJoe Rogan49:19

       They get mad.

   13. HDHerb Dean49:20

       Celebrating up there. Yeah, yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan49:21

       Yeah. Yeah. The celebrating thing is funny, man.

   15. HDHerb Dean49:23

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan49:23

       Let them celebrate.

   17. HDHerb Dean49:24

       Yeah. They don't like him to do a flip. Well, one guy did a flip.

   18. JRJoe Rogan49:27

       Gaethje just did.

   19. HDHerb Dean49:27

       Uh, uh, he did a flip and landed on... One guy did a flip and landed on someone, so I get that.

   20. JRJoe Rogan49:31

       Yeah.

   21. HDHerb Dean49:31

       But it's like, man, I'd trust the guy to get kicked in the neck, but I'm not gonna trust him to do a flip. He's probably done a flip before. I don't know.

   22. JRJoe Rogan49:37

       Yeah, I don't know either. Gaethje almost landed on a guy his last fight.

   23. HDHerb Dean49:41

       Yeah, and that's-

   24. JRJoe Rogan49:42

       And that was a fight.

   25. HDHerb Dean49:43

       So if somebody else gets hurt, now then I get that.

   26. JRJoe Rogan49:45

       What if he killed a doctor? What if he... How long... How much of a suspension do you get if you kill a doctor with a backflip?

   27. HDHerb Dean49:50

       (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan49:51

       Like, for real. Imagine if a doctor is running in and Gaethje off the top rope, dang!

   29. HDHerb Dean49:54

       Uh-huh, just going in to help.

   30. JRJoe Rogan49:55

       And it, it would be the ultimate World Star video. (laughs) Do... Would the Beast with- with, uh, Derrick Lewis, would he have that on his Instagram? Would he keep that on his Instagram if someone died if it was UFC? Uh, well, he might. He's so savage.
10. 50:57 – 58:47

    Dolphins, paddleboards, surfing attempts, and Joe’s shark paranoia

    1. HDHerb Dean50:57

       I mean, I have... I just got something on my Instagram about the guy who got hit by a dolphin. I just put that up there the other day. I saw somebody put it up. And I was like-

    2. JRJoe Rogan51:02

       Guy got hit by a dolphin?

    3. HDHerb Dean51:03

       Yeah, he was doing some paddle boarding and, and the dolphin was living life a little bit. Dolphin was doing its thing. So they... You know how... He's paddle boarding down and there's a wave coming.

    4. JRJoe Rogan51:11

       Mm-hmm.

    5. HDHerb Dean51:11

       And then you can see the dolphins... You know how they like to surf, so they get in the wave, they're doing their thing. And I think the dolphin sees him. He's the only one who decides to come out of the water and get a little air. He's like, "Oh, it's a paddle boarder. Get a little air. Pow!"

    6. JRJoe Rogan51:23

       And he fucks him up?

    7. HDHerb Dean51:25

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah, here we go.

    8. JRJoe Rogan51:26

       Whoa, look at this.

    9. HDHerb Dean51:27

       Back it.

    10. JRJoe Rogan51:28

        Oh, that's 100% on purpose.

    11. HDHerb Dean51:31

        Like, it makes you wonder about dolphins. Like a dolphin is like, "Oh, what an opportunity."

    12. JRJoe Rogan51:34

        Dude, that is 100% on purpose.

    13. HDHerb Dean51:36

        Yeah, I had to... I had to put that. I had to post that on Instagram.

    14. JRJoe Rogan51:39

        Yeah. That guy is all right.

    15. HDHerb Dean51:41

        Yeah, he's all right.

    16. JRJoe Rogan51:42

        He's not dead. He fell in the water.

    17. HDHerb Dean51:43

        He fell in the water, but a dolphin is heavy. He's going fast.

    18. JRJoe Rogan51:46

        Yeah, he got side-checked.

    19. HDHerb Dean51:47

        He got a little side check.

    20. JRJoe Rogan51:48

        What are you doing that mo- Do you hit him? Do you hit the dolphin? Do you punch it?

    21. HDHerb Dean51:52

        No, I have respect.

    22. JRJoe Rogan51:52

        It punches you in the face, like yeah-

    23. HDHerb Dean51:53

        I... No, no, I punch out.

    24. JRJoe Rogan51:53

        But it's trying to fuck you up.

    25. HDHerb Dean51:54

        I pu- I'm like, the dolphin got the air, I'm like, "Hey, look, you're having a little fun."

    26. JRJoe Rogan51:58

        Take the head.

    27. HDHerb Dean51:58

        Yeah, because how much does a dolphin weigh and it's his element?

    28. JRJoe Rogan52:01

        It's a big animal.

    29. HDHerb Dean52:02

        Yeah, you gotta get back to the shore.

    30. JRJoe Rogan52:03

        That is pretty funny, though.
11. 58:47 – 1:03:53

    Herb’s love of Russia: travel mindset, safety, and the Alabama ‘taser’ story lesson

    1. JRJoe Rogan58:47

       Yeah. You, uh, do you like going to Russia so much?

    2. HDHerb Dean58:50

       I do. I do.

    3. JRJoe Rogan58:51

       Do you enjoy it up there?

    4. HDHerb Dean58:52

       Yeah, I do.

    5. JRJoe Rogan58:52

       What's it like?

    6. HDHerb Dean58:53

       I have a good time.

    7. JRJoe Rogan58:53

       What is it like?

    8. HDHerb Dean58:54

       I, I like it. Let me see. Um, well, I like, um, I like traveling, so this is a cool thing. I've got to travel so much. I've got to see a lot of really cool places. And, uh, uh, Russia's one of them. I like, uh, all the different places I've been there. St. Petersburg. Well, 'cause Russia's, one thing is it's like America. Lots of different places wherever you are. Like, you know, this, America to some people could seem like a different country in all the different states they show us.

    9. JRJoe Rogan59:21

       Hmm. Oh, for sure.

    10. HDHerb Dean59:22

        Some o- Yeah. So it's like that. So, um, I got to, uh, I go to Moscow. Moscow's one thing, you know. You get to, there's a lot of history, a lot of nice things to see. St. Petersburg, same thing. Um...

    11. JRJoe Rogan59:34

        Do you feel safe when you're over there?

    12. HDHerb Dean59:36

        Well, I, I take everything at face value, so is that... That's the way I go through life. Because if I was to try to always read some undercurrents or read what, uh, people tell me I'm supposed to experience, I'm, I'm not, I'm never gonna do anything. Like, um, a long time ago on my travels, my, um, my... I was gonna go do a One Butterbean show down in Alabama. And my parents were like, "Man, you're going to Alabama, man. Be safe down there. Don't be doing all that stuff you do, you know. It's gonna be different because of, you know, America and our history with racism." And, um, I went down there and I was, you know, this is what exp- it's, uh... You mind if you tell the story?

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:00:13

        Please.

    14. HDHerb Dean1:00:13

        Yeah, 'cause this is a story. So I went down there and I was, I was at this show and, and then some, uh, ch- cops come up and they look like the cops from, you know, in the movies from the South that supposed to scare you.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:00:24

        Mm-hmm.

    16. HDHerb Dean1:00:24

        And I took a picture with them and they're like, and somebody else came to take a picture and they were like, "Oh, look what we started." Going, "No, man. I'm gonna do this. Uh, that's what I'm here to do. I'm gonna hang out with people and I'm gonna referee fights and I'm gonna, you know, talk to people as they wanna talk." So, I took a lot of pictures. They were impressed. They were saying that, you know, they've seen other people, you know, you know, tell people no about pictures. And they got all excited. They're like, "Hey, hey," um, "We want you to come out and pull people over with us."

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:00:48

        (laughs)

    18. HDHerb Dean1:00:49

        Uh, I'm like, "No, no. I don't wanna do that. I have no interest in doing that."

    19. NANarrator1:00:53

        Ah.

    20. HDHerb Dean1:00:53

        You know. I, I'm, I grew up in LA, you know what I mean? Like, they're like, and they were getting pumped. They're like, imagine like, "You're getting pulled over by Herb Ding, bitch." Yeah, yeah." And I'm like-

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:01:01

        Oh.

    22. HDHerb Dean1:01:01

        ... "No, no. I don't wanna do it." And they, uh, then one guy was, um...

    23. NANarrator1:01:04

        (laughs)

    24. HDHerb Dean1:01:04

        He goes, "Well, well some, do something. I mean, we wanna make this, do something. Tase me or something, hurt me." So like he grabs this- his taser gun and sticks the taser in my hand.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:01:14

        Jesus Christ. (laughs)

    26. HDHerb Dean1:01:14

        And I'm sitting there and I'm like, "What the fuck?" So I start tasing him, right?

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:01:18

        (laughs)

    28. NANarrator1:01:20

        (laughs)

    29. HDHerb Dean1:01:20

        I'm tasing this, tasing this guy and he's like...He tased me.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:01:23

        (laughs)
12. 1:03:53 – 1:09:45

    Cyrillic, languages, and Herb’s multilingual family advantage

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:03:53

       Do you know how to speak it?

    2. HDHerb Dean1:03:54

       No, no, no. No. I mean, I can-

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:03:55

       Do you understand any of it?

Episode duration: 2:51:59