JRE MMA Show #66 with Michelle Waterson

1. 0:01 – 1:52

   Disney trip, Edwards AFB, and spotting stealth bombers

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:01

      Two, one. Hello, Michelle.

   2. MWMichelle Waterson0:05

      (laughs) How's it going?

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      (laughs)

   4. MWMichelle Waterson0:06

      I was getting ready to crack my neck. So (laughs) it-

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:07

      Oh, go ahead. Crack your neck.

   6. MWMichelle Waterson0:09

      I feel like I'm-

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:09

      Put it on, put the microphone to it so we can hear it. Does it pop?

   8. MWMichelle Waterson0:12

      I think I just popped it.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Okay. Ooh.

   10. MWMichelle Waterson0:14

       Did you hear-

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:14

       That was a good one.

   12. MWMichelle Waterson0:16

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:16

       That was a good one. Do you do that all the time?

   14. MWMichelle Waterson0:18

       Just when I'm getting ready to fight.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:20

       Throw down? (laughs)

   16. MWMichelle Waterson0:22

       Yeah. (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:22

       Pull this, uh, microphone like a fist from your face. There we go.

   18. MWMichelle Waterson0:24

       Is that better?

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:25

       Yeah, perfect, perfect.

   20. MWMichelle Waterson0:27

       All right.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:27

       So what's happening?

   22. MWMichelle Waterson0:27

       No, we're just in town, um, uh, my brother-in-law just moved, just got stationed here in California, so we drove him down, and then we did the whole Disney thing.

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:36

       San Diego?

   24. MWMichelle Waterson0:37

       Um, no. I think it's, it's actually an hour f- south of here, I think. S- it, it's not-

   25. JRJoe Rogan0:45

       Oh, okay.

   26. MWMichelle Waterson0:45

       ... close by, but mm-hmm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan0:47

       Cool.

   28. MWMichelle Waterson0:48

       Air Force.

   29. JRJoe Rogan0:48

       Oh, okay.

   30. MWMichelle Waterson0:49

       And so we did the whole Disney thing.
2. 1:52 – 3:10

   Family background: military roots and her parents’ origin story

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:52

      Are you from a military background?

   2. MWMichelle Waterson1:53

      I, my dad, yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:54

      Yeah?

   4. MWMichelle Waterson1:54

      My dad was in... So that's where my parents met. My dad was stationed in Germany.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:58

      Oh.

   6. MWMichelle Waterson1:59

      My mom was fleeing Thailand-

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:02

      Whoa.

   8. MWMichelle Waterson2:02

      ... um, to, uh, her, her first husband was, like, physically abusive to her so she was leaving Thailand, and she came to Germany to find her a GI and then found my dad. (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:13

      She came to find a GI specifically?

   10. MWMichelle Waterson2:16

       Well, you know, I think she was coming to get away, but-

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:18

       Right.

   12. MWMichelle Waterson2:18

       ... you know, she wanted to, she wanted t- a better life for her son-

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:22

       Right.

   14. MWMichelle Waterson2:22

       ... at the time. And my dad was in the hospital, and so my mom was taking care of him and-

   15. JRJoe Rogan2:28

       Oh, wow.

   16. MWMichelle Waterson2:28

       ... cooking him food and-

   17. JRJoe Rogan2:30

       (laughs)

   18. MWMichelle Waterson2:30

       ... made him fall in love. (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan2:32

       There you go.

   20. MWMichelle Waterson2:33

       And my dad always jokes. He says it's, he, he tells us the story all the time. He's like, "Yeah, your mom was taking care of me, and then she told me that you were pregnant, and then 12 months later, you were born." (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan2:46

       Oh, that's funny.

   22. MWMichelle Waterson2:47

       So, but no, they fell in love.

   23. JRJoe Rogan2:49

       (laughs)

   24. MWMichelle Waterson2:51

       (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan2:51

       It was just a really long pregnancy.

   26. MWMichelle Waterson2:53

       It's-

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:53

       Just weird.

   28. MWMichelle Waterson2:54

       (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan2:54

       Just kinda weird. I don't know why.

   30. MWMichelle Waterson2:55

       Yes, she's like, "12 months? I don't know." But I was-
3. 3:10 – 4:57

   Starting martial arts at 10: karate tournaments, katas, and point-fighting tactics

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:10

      Oh, cool. When did you start training?

   2. MWMichelle Waterson3:13

      Um, probably around 10.

   3. JRJoe Rogan3:14

      Yeah?

   4. MWMichelle Waterson3:15

      Yeah, around 10. Um, I have, I have a older brother, and he's four years older than me. He's my half-brother, and, um, I really wanted to do gymnastics as a kid, and my parents just, we just couldn't afford it. It was really expensive. And so, my brother found, um, a little karate spot at the church just across the street, and it was a community, like a community, uh, karate thing. And so it was something that all three of us could do. And so, yeah, we jumped into it, and I fell in love with it. I just, it just took over my life and changed, changed my life.

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:48

      Did you start competing really quickly?

   6. MWMichelle Waterson3:50

      Yeah, I think so. Um, and at first, it's funny because at first, um, so I would do, like, the, the karate tournaments. And so there was point sparring and then there was the katas, and (clears throat) I thought the katas were silly.

   7. JRJoe Rogan4:05

      (laughs)

   8. MWMichelle Waterson4:05

      And I remember going in and doing point sparring and, um, getting knocked on my butt, and I was like, "Okay, I think I, I wanna do some katas then."

   9. JRJoe Rogan4:14

      (laughs)

   10. MWMichelle Waterson4:14

       You know? I wanna bring some trophies home. (laughs) So, but, um, so yeah, I competed ka- po- uh, karate from 10 all the way up until I was 18. And so I did a lot of the f- like, the flashy, like, um, extreme martial arts katas with the, um, like, the flips and stuff like that.

   11. JRJoe Rogan4:33

       Mm-hmm.

   12. MWMichelle Waterson4:33

       But I always, I always came back to sparring because I wasn't good at it.

   13. JRJoe Rogan4:39

       Hmm.

   14. MWMichelle Waterson4:39

       Like, I was like, "Ugh." It, it bugged me. It bugged me that I, that I wasn't good at it. And then I found my niche, uh, 'cause it's point sparring, so you get two, two points to the head for kicks to the head, so I would just sit back and let 'em come in and just kick 'em in the head. (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan4:54

       (laughs)

   16. MWMichelle Waterson4:55

       Kick 'em in the head a couple times and win the fight.

4. 4:57 – 7:53

   From karate to Muay Thai and MMA: the ring-girl moment and Cerrone’s note

   1. JRJoe Rogan4:57

      So how did you go from that... Did, did you go from that to kickboxing or did you go right into MMA? Like, when did you, when did you start training MMA?

   2. MWMichelle Waterson5:05

      So, so I did, I did karate, and then I got my black belt in karate.

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:12

      What kind?

   4. MWMichelle Waterson5:12

      Uh, American freestyle. And then, so I think around 18 or 19, I was kinda just exploring, doing a couple different things, so I did Wushu for a couple of years and I competed in Wushu, and then I did a little bit of Kempo and, um, and then kinda dabbled a little bit into, um, kickboxing. And, uh, so it, it, it all kinda just happened pretty strangely. I was in college. I was working at Hooters, and I was doing the, all these, like, little side jobs, um, like, f- doing photo shoots for this and that. And, um, I was a ring girl for a MMA show. I had never seen MMA. And I remember, uh, just walking around the cage and thinking, "Man, I wanna be, like, on the inside." I thought, "That look, that looks cool. I think I could do it," 'cause it was mixed martial arts, you know? And I remember talking to a promoter, and he kinda laughed me off and was just like, "Whatever," you know?... you're a ring girl. And, um, it was a smaller local show. Donald Cerrone was actually fighting on that show and he overheard me.

   5. JRJoe Rogan6:17

      Wow.

   6. MWMichelle Waterson6:17

      Yeah. And so, he came to my work at Hooters and I wasn't there and he was just like... Left me a note, "If you're serious about fighting, get your ass in the gym."

   7. JRJoe Rogan6:25

      Wow.

   8. MWMichelle Waterson6:26

      And then, um-

   9. JRJoe Rogan6:26

      And where was this? This was in Colorado?

   10. MWMichelle Waterson6:28

       In Colorado. Mm-hmm. And then, I... So, I went to go train. I went to go train with, with Donald and, you know, we, we gym hopped from place to place. I trained with, um, with Dwayne, I trained, um, with Trevor. I trained with, with all... with all the guys.

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:42

       Wow.

   12. MWMichelle Waterson6:43

       And, um... And so, I took a couple smokers with drive, you know, drive around the region and, and took a couple of smokers. And then, um, it was like at that point when I was still in college and, um, I just was not happy in college. I, I was kind of wandering around aimlessly as really successful in high school and, uh, you know, um, it just didn't transfer over to college. I, I still... I got good grades, I was 3.8, you know, I was going to DU but I wasn't happy. I just... I... There was something missing and it was... it was the martial arts. It was, was a big part of my life and-

   13. JRJoe Rogan7:21

       You needed a real challenge.

   14. MWMichelle Waterson7:23

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan7:23

       You needed something physical too probably, right?

   16. MWMichelle Waterson7:25

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan7:25

       I would imagine that someone growing up doing martial arts as long as you did, like, the, the thrill of using your body and moving around, so like, that... It's so important. Like, once, once you do that and you compete and it becomes a part of you, the idea of like sitting in a classroom all day and then eventually sitting in a job all day was probably not, not that compelling.

   18. MWMichelle Waterson7:46

       Yeah. I think so. I think that, um, I just... Yeah, I was losing myself.

   19. JRJoe Rogan7:51

       What were you going to school for?

5. 7:53 – 9:06

   Thailand training breakthrough and dropping out to pursue fighting

   1. MWMichelle Waterson7:53

      I was going to school... So, I was double majoring in theater and, um, sport science.

   2. JRJoe Rogan7:57

      Mm.

   3. MWMichelle Waterson7:57

      So, I was majoring in theater 'cause I got a scholarship for it, and I was doing sport science... I wanted to be like a physical therapist for, um, like a sports team or something like that, or even a martial arts team. But, uh, yeah, so I, I decided to take a like... A little bit like a break from that. And my mom... My grandma was sick in Thailand so then I was like... I told my mom I'd just go with her for the summer and we went to visit my grandma in Thailand. And while I was out there I, um, I went to Sit Yatong, uh, Muay Thai camp, and I absolutely fell in love with it.

   4. JRJoe Rogan8:31

      Mm.

   5. MWMichelle Waterson8:31

      They made fun of me 'cause of my, my karate kicks.

   6. JRJoe Rogan8:33

      (laughs) Yeah. It's interesting how, how different karate kicks are-

   7. MWMichelle Waterson8:38

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan8:38

      ... from Thai kicks.

   9. MWMichelle Waterson8:39

      Yeah. And they were looking at me like I was crazy but I was like-

   10. JRJoe Rogan8:41

       (laughs)

   11. MWMichelle Waterson8:41

       ... "But no, I'm a black belt." (laughs) It's just like, "I know what I'm doing." They're just laughing at me. We're training on concrete outside and these little five-year-old kids are doing 10-year-old... 10-minute rounds and, um, my feet are blistering up-

   12. JRJoe Rogan8:54

       Mm-hmm.

   13. MWMichelle Waterson8:54

       ... from kicking over and over and over on the concrete. But I loved it, I fell in love with it. It kicked my butt and I fell in love with it. And I came back and I dropped out of college and I decided to pursue fighting.

6. 9:06 – 11:37

   Learning grappling on the fly: first “amateur” bout turns pro

   1. JRJoe Rogan9:06

      Wow. So, where did you learn grappling?

   2. MWMichelle Waterson9:10

      Uh, so... So, my first MMA fight was kind of just... It was supposed to be an amateur fight and, um, like I said, I was training with, um, with Donald. And he was training at a school in Vail. And so, I would... I would go to s-... I would, um... I would work on the weekends and then drive up to Vail and train (coughs) , uh, my grappling in all of it, like the... like all of the MMA. And so-

   3. JRJoe Rogan9:42

      So, you basically trained MMA together?

   4. MWMichelle Waterson9:44

      Uh-huh.

   5. JRJoe Rogan9:44

      Like you didn't take specific grappling classes, but would imagine that that was the thing that you needed to concentrate on the most, right?

   6. MWMichelle Waterson9:50

      Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I, I figured, okay, it's my, my, my pro day... Or it wasn't... It was supposed to be amateur, but the girl that I was supposed to fight fell through. And, um, the only girl that they had available was already pro, she was like 2 and 0 pro. And, of course, you know how Donald is, he's like, "Whatever, fuck it. Just do it."

   7. JRJoe Rogan10:10

      (laughs)

   8. MWMichelle Waterson10:10

      And so... (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan10:11

      That's a good Donald accent.

   10. MWMichelle Waterson10:13

       So, I was like, "All right. I mean, we've been training." So, I, I literally had four weeks. In my am-... In my like... Throughout my, my karate career, we would have grappling nights when we would do grappling but it wasn't anything like substantial. So yeah, four weeks of, of grappling training and I figured, "Okay, you know, I'll just use my standup to, to win the fight." And she was swinging from, from way back here and trying to take my head off so I ended up taking her down. I ended up taking her down like six or seven times.

   11. JRJoe Rogan10:46

       Wow.

   12. MWMichelle Waterson10:47

       And, and, and winning the fight by taking her down and ground and pounding. (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan10:51

       That's crazy.

   14. MWMichelle Waterson10:52

       Yeah, it was crazy.

   15. JRJoe Rogan10:53

       Did you... Did you say while you were doing it like, "Wow, this is so weird that I'm doing this"?

   16. MWMichelle Waterson10:58

       It was... I, I wasn't thinking at all. I was just in the moment having the time of my life.

   17. JRJoe Rogan11:04

       W- were you thinking that this was what you were gonna wind up doing, like professionally?

   18. MWMichelle Waterson11:08

       (sighs) No.

   19. JRJoe Rogan11:09

       Or were you just thinking, "I can't believe I'm doing this"?

   20. MWMichelle Waterson11:11

       I... Yeah, that's exactly... I was like, "This is so much fun." Um, it was at the Broomfield Event Center. I don't know if it's... That's still called the Broomfield Event Center in Colorado, but...

   21. JRJoe Rogan11:20

       Yeah, I think a bank owns it now or something.

   22. MWMichelle Waterson11:22

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan11:22

       They always change names.

   24. MWMichelle Waterson11:24

       It was so much fun.

   25. JRJoe Rogan11:25

       Yeah, that's wild.

   26. MWMichelle Waterson11:25

       But never in my life I thought I w-... I would be-

   27. JRJoe Rogan11:28

       A top UFC contender.

   28. MWMichelle Waterson11:29

       Never.

   29. JRJoe Rogan11:30

       And on your way, your goal is to be the first mommy-

   30. MWMichelle Waterson11:33

       Yeah.
7. 11:37 – 15:10

   Rankings, matchmaking, and women’s MMA visibility

   1. JRJoe Rogan11:37

      You're in the... You're in the hunt right now, like what are you ranked?

   2. MWMichelle Waterson11:40

      I'm ranked seven.

   3. JRJoe Rogan11:41

      Mm-hmm.

   4. MWMichelle Waterson11:42

      Seventh, but I don't think the rankings are anything.

   5. JRJoe Rogan11:47

      They're weird.

   6. MWMichelle Waterson11:48

      They're weird.

   7. JRJoe Rogan11:48

      Yeah. There's like... Sometimes someone will beat somebody and then that person's still ahead of them in the ranking. I'm like, "Explain that."

   8. MWMichelle Waterson11:54

      Yeah, I just... I don't understand the rankings though. I feel like I've, I've won my last three fights and I've gone down in rankings. Um-

   9. JRJoe Rogan12:00

      What?

   10. MWMichelle Waterson12:01

       Joanna hasn't fought and she's gone down in rankings. Um, and some of the girls haven't fought and they've gone up in rankings. Uh, I just think the rankings are crazy.

   11. JRJoe Rogan12:09

       Yeah. Well, it's a bunch of people get to submit their positions, right?

   12. MWMichelle Waterson12:14

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan12:14

       Like, a bunch of journalists and, uh, accepted experts on MMA get to-

   14. MWMichelle Waterson12:19

       I have no idea how-

   15. JRJoe Rogan12:20

       Yeah.

   16. MWMichelle Waterson12:20

       ... I, I guess when I look at the rankings, sometimes I feel like it, it shifts depending on who they're trying to push or-

   17. JRJoe Rogan12:26

       Mm.

   18. MWMichelle Waterson12:27

       ... you know, just sometimes I feel like just storyline kind of can dictate-

   19. JRJoe Rogan12:31

       Yeah.

   20. MWMichelle Waterson12:32

       ... the, the rankings.

   21. JRJoe Rogan12:33

       You know, obviously I'm a giant fan of the UFC, I love them to death. I'm so happy and I just, I, I would do nothing for any other organization, I d- never wanna work for another organization.

   22. MWMichelle Waterson12:45

       Yes.

   23. JRJoe Rogan12:45

       But I don't like w- the way they do things.

   24. MWMichelle Waterson12:47

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan12:47

       There's a lot of things that I don't like.

   26. MWMichelle Waterson12:48

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan12:48

       They just, they just cut Elias Theodorou.

   28. MWMichelle Waterson12:51

       Really?

   29. JRJoe Rogan12:51

       Yeah. One loss. Derek Brunson-

   30. MWMichelle Waterson12:53

       That's scary.
8. 15:10 – 16:53

   Muay Thai’s brutality and why it never went mainstream in the U.S.

   1. MWMichelle Waterson15:10

      Muay Thai's brutal. I feel like... 'Cause it, d-... My husband and I talk about this all the time, because in MMA you have options.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:16

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MWMichelle Waterson15:16

      Like, if you're havin'... If you're having trouble in the stand up, you can take them down, you can work your grappling this or that. In boxing, you don't really have much options. Either you, you give u-... You get knocked out or you give up, you know, in the corner.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:27

      Mm-hmm.

   5. MWMichelle Waterson15:27

      And I feel it's the same way in Mma-... in Muay Thai, except for now you're introducing knees and shins and elbows.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:34

      Elbows, yeah. Sure.

   7. MWMichelle Waterson15:34

      And, like, those cut.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:36

      Mm-hmm.

   9. MWMichelle Waterson15:36

      And you have no way out. Like-

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:37

       Yeah.

   11. MWMichelle Waterson15:38

       ... you know? So that's, that's brutal.

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:40

       Yeah, it's a rough sport. And an incredibly exciting sport to watch, and one that I've never understood. I mean, boxing is so gigantic in this country, and Muay Thai has almost no presence. And I j-... I've just... It baffles me to no end. I mean, they, they have the product.

   13. MWMichelle Waterson15:56

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:56

       I mean, th-... And they have great American fighters, I mean, like Joe Schilling, Kevin Ross, and there's, there's, uh, a ton of them. And there's guys like John Wayne Parr from Australia, and all these guys that are exciting to watch and fun and, and then there's so many elite kids that are coming up.

   15. MWMichelle Waterson16:10

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:10

       But there's no mainstream appeal. It doesn't... I don't understand it.

   17. MWMichelle Waterson16:14

       I don't know why either.

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:16

       Yeah.

   19. MWMichelle Waterson16:16

       That's... That is crazy to think.

   20. JRJoe Rogan16:17

       They need a thing like the UFC-

   21. MWMichelle Waterson16:19

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JRJoe Rogan16:19

       ... where something comes along and they dump a b-... a ton of money into it. But the thing is, like, there's only... People only have so much time to watch things.

   23. MWMichelle Waterson16:28

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan16:28

       So it's like, "Oh, Deontay Wilder's fighting. I'll watch that. Oh, you know, uh, Tyron Woodley's fighting. I'll watch him."

   25. MWMichelle Waterson16:36

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan16:36

       You know, "Oh, Jon Jones is fighting. I'll watch that. What's this Muay Thai? Ah, this fight's on. I'm gonna watch Bellator instead. I'm gonna watch that instead." It's like there's... It's almost, like, too saturated.

   27. MWMichelle Waterson16:45

       Yeah, that's true.

   28. JRJoe Rogan16:46

       But it's, it's a shame.

   29. MWMichelle Waterson16:48

       It'd be cool if they had, like, a card with all different types of, of fighting on there.

9. 16:53 – 20:29

   ONE Championship, no weight cutting, and the Sage Northcutt cautionary tale

   1. JRJoe Rogan16:53

      But that's what ONE does.

   2. MWMichelle Waterson16:54

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan16:54

      You know? It's-

   4. MWMichelle Waterson16:55

      And all in the same night.

   5. JRJoe Rogan16:56

      Yes. ONE FC does that.

   6. MWMichelle Waterson16:57

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan16:57

      They'll have kickboxing, Muay Thai and MMA in one night. And they'll have-

   8. MWMichelle Waterson17:01

      Is it confusing?

   9. JRJoe Rogan17:02

      No. No, they let everybody know-

   10. MWMichelle Waterson17:04

       Uh-huh.

   11. JRJoe Rogan17:04

       ... you know, this is what they're doing. I think ONE is doing fantastic.

   12. MWMichelle Waterson17:07

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan17:07

       They're, they're doing... They're, they're putting on amazing fights. I mean, and we've seen that these are, like, legitimately world-class fighters. They're beating guys like they... you know, um, Timothy Natsukin just beat Eddie Alvarez.

   14. MWMichelle Waterson17:20

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan17:20

       Knocked him out and-

   16. MWMichelle Waterson17:21

       That was crazy.

   17. JRJoe Rogan17:21

       Yeah. And they, they're also... They cut out all the weight cutting. There's no weight cutting over there.

   18. MWMichelle Waterson17:25

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan17:25

       So, like, when Sage Northcutt fought, uh, Cosmo Alexandre-

   20. MWMichelle Waterson17:28

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan17:28

       ... he's... he fought him at 185 pounds.

   22. MWMichelle Waterson17:30

       Sh-

   23. JRJoe Rogan17:31

       'Cause that's really what he walks around at.

   24. MWMichelle Waterson17:32

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan17:32

       You know? So there's no weight cutting over there.

   26. MWMichelle Waterson17:34

       That was a brutal hit-

   27. JRJoe Rogan17:35

       (exhales)

   28. MWMichelle Waterson17:35

       ... that he got caught with.

   29. JRJoe Rogan17:37

       Crazy.

   30. MWMichelle Waterson17:37

       I'm, I'm glad that he's okay, but Geesele...
10. 20:29 – 27:42

    Slam KOs, PRIDE-era stories, and steroids: from Bob Sapp to modern testing

    1. MWMichelle Waterson20:29

       But then... Well, what about Andrade and, and Rose? I was scared.

    2. JRJoe Rogan20:33

       That was crazy, yeah.

    3. MWMichelle Waterson20:34

       I was scared for Rose.

    4. JRJoe Rogan20:35

       It was a really bad landing. Landing on her neck like that was terrifying.

    5. MWMichelle Waterson20:38

       That's what scared me just 'cause w- we were in Brazil too and that crowd was crazy.

    6. JRJoe Rogan20:43

       Mm-hmm.

    7. MWMichelle Waterson20:43

       And everybody shot up and started screaming and Rose was just, like, laid out on the canvas.

    8. JRJoe Rogan20:49

       Yeah.

    9. MWMichelle Waterson20:49

       And I kind of was just, like, wanting her corner to be in there with her 'cause she was just all alone by herself.

    10. JRJoe Rogan20:55

        Right.

    11. MWMichelle Waterson20:55

        You know, and I was worried that she wasn't gonna get up. I was like, "Hey, you guys, like, wait to cheer until we see she's okay 'cause that can..."

    12. JRJoe Rogan21:02

        Paralyze someone.

    13. MWMichelle Waterson21:02

        Yeah, for sure.

    14. JRJoe Rogan21:03

        100%. Yeah, and if you look at the impact, if you've seen the photograph of the landing itself-

    15. MWMichelle Waterson21:08

        Mm-hmm.

    16. JRJoe Rogan21:08

        ... I mean, it's, it's one of the worst ways you could ever land.

    17. MWMichelle Waterson21:11

        Yeah.

    18. JRJoe Rogan21:11

        She's essentially head first with her neck sideways and, um-

    19. MWMichelle Waterson21:16

        Flattened.

    20. JRJoe Rogan21:17

        Yeah. And her neck is-

    21. MWMichelle Waterson21:18

        Like, there was no space.

    22. JRJoe Rogan21:19

        Yeah, it's like someone was cranking on her neck.

    23. MWMichelle Waterson21:21

        Mm-hmm.

    24. JRJoe Rogan21:21

        It's, like, horrible.

    25. MWMichelle Waterson21:22

        Yeah.

    26. JRJoe Rogan21:22

        That was a bad landing. I mean, the whole thing was bad. She's going for the Kimura. Um, Jessica picks her up. She doesn't lace a leg and she holds on in the Kimura-

    27. MWMichelle Waterson21:32

        (sighs)

    28. JRJoe Rogan21:32

        ... which you, you just can't do.

    29. MWMichelle Waterson21:34

        Mm-hmm.

    30. JRJoe Rogan21:34

        You just can't do. You gotta let it go.
11. 27:42 – 46:50

    Fairness in combat sports: steroids, gender categories, and transgender competition

    1. MWMichelle Waterson27:42

       I don't think ... I would never ... I wouldn't wanna do that, even if I had the choice to do it, I guess.

    2. JRJoe Rogan27:46

       You wouldn't want to.

    3. MWMichelle Waterson27:47

       I wouldn't want to.

    4. JRJoe Rogan27:48

       Right, right. I get it. Well, that makes sense, and that's why I think people like you are important for MMA, because you are a r- you're a woman.

    5. MWMichelle Waterson27:55

       Yeah.

    6. JRJoe Rogan27:55

       You seem like a woman. You behave like a woman. You look like a woman. If you f- if someone's like, "Look at that girl's top 10 UFC fighter," you'd be like, "What?"

    7. MWMichelle Waterson28:02

       Mm-hmm.

    8. JRJoe Rogan28:03

       "No way. Really? She's so normal."

    9. MWMichelle Waterson28:05

       (laughs)

    10. JRJoe Rogan28:05

        Like ... But if you saw Gabby Garcia, and you go that girl is smashing people in Japan, you're like, "I fucking believe it."

    11. MWMichelle Waterson28:10

        Yeah.

    12. JRJoe Rogan28:10

        "Jesus."

    13. MWMichelle Waterson28:11

        She ... she (laughs) ... yeah.

    14. JRJoe Rogan28:11

        "I gotta get the fuck out of this room (laughs) fu- before she hulks out-"

    15. MWMichelle Waterson28:15

        Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan28:15

        "... and starts to flatten me."

    17. MWMichelle Waterson28:16

        Yeah. No, I just ... Like, I feel like it takes the, um, the joy ... It ... I feel like it would take the joy out of a victory for me.

    18. JRJoe Rogan28:25

        If you did steroids.

    19. MWMichelle Waterson28:26

        Yeah.

    20. JRJoe Rogan28:26

        Yeah. Well, you would become something different. The reality is a woman becomes something different when she starts taking male hormones.

    21. MWMichelle Waterson28:32

        Mm-hmm.

    22. JRJoe Rogan28:32

        You just do.

    23. MWMichelle Waterson28:33

        Mm-hmm.

    24. JRJoe Rogan28:33

        You become something different. Your tendons strengthen. Your bone structure changes. Y- your voice deepens.

    25. MWMichelle Waterson28:39

        Mm-hmm.

    26. JRJoe Rogan28:39

        You become much more like a man. I mean, that's r- when you see transgender women, when, when, uh, a, a woman, rather, is a, a transgender man, she decides she wants to be a man, they start taking testosterone, they get beards.

    27. MWMichelle Waterson28:51

        Mm-hmm.

    28. JRJoe Rogan28:52

        They have all sorts of, uh, strange things happen down below.

    29. MWMichelle Waterson28:55

        To the- (laughs)

    30. JRJoe Rogan28:56

        And they, they start having a deeper voice, and they sound like a man.
12. 46:50 – 54:18

    Evolving as a fighter: blending styles, boxing upgrades, and ‘win or learn’ lessons

    1. MWMichelle Waterson46:50

       Yeah, um, I think that's the, one of the things that he wants me to really work on in order to, to get my game to the next level, is my boxing, you know? 'Cause my kicks are good, my wrestling's, you know, getting better, my jujitsu's good. And if, as long, if I can put together my punches and we'll be A-okay, ready to get that belt.

    2. JRJoe Rogan47:10

       K- karate is an interesting martial art too that you are really good at, 'cause you have this, uh, uh, you have an excellent ability to use that front leg that most people don't, they don't have. Like, you have a awesome front leg side kick, great front leg roundhouse kick. And when you do that, I s- I see that in your fight sometimes. People are like-

    3. MWMichelle Waterson47:26

       Mm-hmm.

    4. JRJoe Rogan47:26

       ... "Oh, I gotta adjust to this."

    5. MWMichelle Waterson47:28

       Mm-hmm.

    6. JRJoe Rogan47:28

       'Cause it's like a jab-

    7. MWMichelle Waterson47:29

       Yeah.

    8. JRJoe Rogan47:29

       ... but, but a jab that could fuck you up.

    9. MWMichelle Waterson47:31

       Mm-hmm.

    10. JRJoe Rogan47:31

        Like, a jab that can knock you out.

    11. MWMichelle Waterson47:33

        Yeah, I think, I, I mean, I guess, like, owe that to my, my point sparring days-

    12. JRJoe Rogan47:37

        Mm-hmm.

    13. MWMichelle Waterson47:38

        ... when everybody was bigger than me. It didn't matter because it was by, by belts.

    14. JRJoe Rogan47:41

        Right.

    15. MWMichelle Waterson47:42

        And so I was always a smaller one and trying to, trying to get the point off first, I would just use my, my front leg and kick it out there as fast as I could. Um, but I do, I feel like my, my, my kicks have lended to being... I've adopted them as jabs, you know?

    16. JRJoe Rogan47:58

        Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    17. MWMichelle Waterson47:59

        So, yeah, I, I love it. I think it helps because then it kinda neutralizes the height difference.

    18. JRJoe Rogan48:04

        Do you train a lot with Winkeljohn?

    19. MWMichelle Waterson48:06

        I do.

    20. JRJoe Rogan48:07

        Winkeljohn is a, he was an excellent fighter. A really good kickboxer.

    21. MWMichelle Waterson48:11

        Mm-hmm.

    22. JRJoe Rogan48:12

        And, uh, really good at both styles too. Like, leg kick style, but also good at, like, he had karate techniques as well.

    23. MWMichelle Waterson48:18

        Mm-hmm.

    24. JRJoe Rogan48:18

        He, and he's also, he was very good at those transitions between those straight kicks and punches-

    25. MWMichelle Waterson48:24

        Yeah.

    26. JRJoe Rogan48:24

        ... as well. You know, that's the thing where a lot of people get confused. There's like, uh, a no man's land between kicking and punching-

    27. MWMichelle Waterson48:31

        Mm-hmm.

    28. JRJoe Rogan48:31

        ... with people who are kicking specialists.

    29. MWMichelle Waterson48:33

        Mm-hmm.

    30. JRJoe Rogan48:33

        And you see it, like, even with elite fighters like Raymond Daniels as he was coming up in his kickboxing career, it took a while before he could make that smooth transition between kicking and punching.
13. 54:18 – 1:03:51

    Weight cutting realities, health costs, and why hydration testing matters

    1. JRJoe Rogan54:18

       Mm-hmm.

    2. MWMichelle Waterson54:18

       Uh, I, I think I was nervous coming into the UFC 'cause I was coming up from 105. You know, I was talking to my husband and just saying like, "What are we doing?" Like, "Do you think I can make the jump up and still hang with these girls?" And...

    3. JRJoe Rogan54:31

       Would, would you be fighting at 105 if the UFC had a 105?

    4. MWMichelle Waterson54:34

       Um, I don't know. I guess it just, uh, m- it, it would depend. I think it would have to be worth it. Um, I actually feel-

    5. JRJoe Rogan54:43

       Just to make the cut?

    6. MWMichelle Waterson54:44

       Yeah. I feel like my last couple of cuts at 105 were pretty brutal.

    7. JRJoe Rogan54:48

       Hmm.

    8. MWMichelle Waterson54:48

       Like, um, (coughs) my eyelashes-

    9. JRJoe Rogan54:50

       You're not supposed to ask a woman-

    10. MWMichelle Waterson54:51

        ... were fallin' out.

    11. JRJoe Rogan54:52

        Your eyelashes were fallin' out?

    12. MWMichelle Waterson54:54

        My eyelashes were, yeah, like, uh-

    13. JRJoe Rogan54:54

        Holy shit.

    14. MWMichelle Waterson54:54

        ... I was so dehydrated that my, like, my ... You know how your eyes sink in?

    15. JRJoe Rogan54:58

        Mm-hmm.

    16. MWMichelle Waterson54:59

        Or in-

    17. JRJoe Rogan54:59

        Yeah.

    18. MWMichelle Waterson55:00

        ... in, like I remember wiping, wiping my eye and just looking down and, like, a whole row of eyelashes were, like, on my, um, on my arm. And, um ...

    19. JRJoe Rogan55:09

        That's like when people get syphilis.

    20. MWMichelle Waterson55:10

        Oh, (laughs) I don't-

    21. JRJoe Rogan55:12

        Teeth start fallin' out and shit. (laughs)

    22. MWMichelle Waterson55:13

        I was, I was sickly, for sure. Like-

    23. JRJoe Rogan55:15

        Wow.

    24. MWMichelle Waterson55:15

        ... um, the, you know, they have to check your, check your vitals after weigh-ins, and the doctor wouldn't release me 'cause he couldn't find my heartbeat, like my, my heartbeat for like an hour.

    25. JRJoe Rogan55:25

        He couldn't find your heartbeat-

    26. MWMichelle Waterson55:26

        (coughs) Mm-hmm.

    27. JRJoe Rogan55:27

        ... 'cause you were so dehydrated?

    28. MWMichelle Waterson55:28

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan55:30

        Whoa.

    30. MWMichelle Waterson55:30

        So, um, I just think that also that last f- cut was, it was a s- like I, I did it w- too quickly, I think. I-
14. 1:03:51 – 1:16:42

    Life at Jackson-Wink: sparring schedule, shark-tank culture, and jiu-jitsu approach

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:03:51

       Yeah. How often do you spar?

    2. MWMichelle Waterson1:03:54

       Um, I would say heavy sparring once a week.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:03:58

       Once a week.

    4. MWMichelle Waterson1:03:59

       Like, um, so we do, uh, like, MMA grappling on Mondays. Tuesdays is a heavy sparring. It's, uh, 16 ounce let's throw down sparring. Wednesdays is wrestling. Thursdays is MMA glove sparring. So it's kind of more just, um, accuracy. Like, light on the striking, heavy on the grappling. And then Fridays, technical work, technique, stuff like that.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:04:29

       Now, you're at a gym, you're at Jackson Winkeljohn, which is one of the best gyms on the planet Earth, but also a gym that's filled with savages. I mean-

    6. MWMichelle Waterson1:04:38

       Yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:04:38

       ... you, there must be a lot of chest bumping and a lot of people-

    8. MWMichelle Waterson1:04:42

       (laughs)

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:04:42

       ... that are trying to test people. And y-

    10. MWMichelle Waterson1:04:44

        Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:04:44

        ... there's gotta be girls who are there who look at a girl like you and say, "This girl's where I wanna be."

    12. MWMichelle Waterson1:04:50

        Yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:04:51

        And I mean, I've, I've talked to males who train there and say, "Man, let me tell you something. There are some Russian cats that just show up out of nowhere and try to take your head off."

    14. MWMichelle Waterson1:04:59

        Yeah. And-

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:05:00

        And...

    16. MWMichelle Waterson1:05:00

        (laughs)

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:05:00

        Yeah.

    18. MWMichelle Waterson1:05:00

        And they go outside and smoke some cigarettes-

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:05:02

        (coughs)

    20. MWMichelle Waterson1:05:02

        ... and drink some vodka at night. (laughs)

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:05:04

        Do they, are they smoking cigarettes?

    22. MWMichelle Waterson1:05:05

        Um, some of them. I mean, I-

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:05:06

        That's weird.

    24. MWMichelle Waterson1:05:07

        Fighters are crazy. You get the funniest, coolest stories from meeting fighters all around the world.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:05:12

        Mm-hmm.

    26. MWMichelle Waterson1:05:13

        And yet, Jackson's is, is, um, it's a shark tank. Like, you're not going there to find Nemo, you know? It's-

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:05:19

        (laughs)

    28. MWMichelle Waterson1:05:21

        (laughs)

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:05:21

        You're fighting Jaws.

    30. MWMichelle Waterson1:05:22

        You know what I mean? Yes. Exactly. So you got to give it... You have to have a good set of skills before you get there-

Episode duration: 1:49:43