CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 1:14
Post-fight check-in: dancing after losing the belt
Joe and Max open with some friendly banter about finally getting Max on the show, then pivot to how Max feels after his title loss. Max describes feeling surprisingly good physically, even partying and dancing after the fight despite leg damage during the bout.
- •Logistics of getting Holloway on the podcast from Hawaii
- •Max says he’s walking fine and felt fine after the fight
- •After-party story (Chainsmokers, dancing/power slides)
- •Sets up discussion of leg kicks and perceived damage
- 1:14 – 3:33
Scoring controversy: leg kicks vs damage, and why decisions frustrate fighters
Max explains his post-fight comments about believing he won and how fans misinterpreted them. He and Joe discuss how MMA scoring undervalues/overvalues different strikes and how the 10-point must system creates confusion.
- •Max’s rationale: felt he landed more damaging head/body shots
- •Leg kicks didn’t feel decisive until rewatching footage
- •MMA as a “game” where Volkanovski out-pointed him
- •Problems with the 10-point must system imported from boxing
- 3:33 – 8:18
Judging reform: martial-artist judges, more judges, and using ex-fighters
The conversation broadens into systemic issues: judges without real martial arts experience and commissions making questionable choices. Joe and Max argue for ex-fighters as judges and discuss increasing the number of judges to reduce variance.
- •Judges often aren’t trained fighters; decisions suffer
- •Examples of commissions/officials who ‘don’t know anything’
- •Ex-fighters like Frank Trigg face barriers to officiating
- •Proposal: more judges (8–9) similar to Olympic approaches
- 8:18 – 10:39
Matchmaking realities: injuries, unpredictable schedules, and the near-Khabib fight
Joe and Max shift to how chaotic MMA scheduling is compared to other sports. Max recounts taking the short-notice Khabib offer and the extreme weight cut attempt that was stopped by medical staff.
- •MMA fighters can’t plan seasons like NBA/MLB/boxing
- •Short-notice title opportunities (6–10 days)
- •Max started the cut at ~170 and was close before being stopped
- •New York’s early MMA regulation/medical uncertainty
- 10:39 – 14:05
Tony vs Khabib hype and the role of genetics (cardio & power)
They break down why Tony Ferguson is uniquely dangerous—unorthodox attacks, pressure, and elite cardio. This leads into a wider discussion about genetic gifts: cardio ceilings and punching power comparisons.
- •Tony’s unorthodox offense and attacking off his back
- •Cardio as partly genetic—like knockout power
- •Stories about small training partners with huge power
- •Examples: Deontay Wilder’s power as ‘unteachable’
- 14:05 – 18:17
Mike Tyson, Ngannou, and heavyweight danger: freak power and late-fight chaos
Joe and Max geek out over Tyson’s movement even in his 50s and the idea of Ngannou boxing. They discuss terrifying heavyweight moments, including Rosenstruik’s last-second lip injury to Overeem and how a fight can flip instantly.
- •Tyson training clips and early-life size myths
- •Ngannou’s potential boxing payday and UFC/boxing crossover talk
- •Rosenstruik vs Overeem: last-seconds disaster and brutal cut
- •‘Game of inches’—how lapses change outcomes
- 18:17 – 37:39
Max’s mindset after losing: identity beyond the belt and rematch adjustments
Max describes fans treating him like it’s a funeral and reiterates his ‘it is what it is’ resilience. They discuss the Volkanovski gameplan (leg kicks) and what Max noticed in real time, including corner cues and stance switching.
- •Max: didn’t need the belt to be a champion; wants GOAT status
- •Joe: leg attacks were the key factor; rematch makes sense
- •Max heard ‘Dragon’ as a leg-kick call from Volkanovski’s corner
- •Southpaw/stance switching and tactical reads during the fight
- 37:39 – 43:01
Weight cutting & hydration tests: fixing incentives and opening weight classes
They debate reforms to weight cutting, citing ONE FC’s hydration testing model. Max also criticizes the champion/challenger having no allowance while non-title fighters get a pound, arguing the incentives are backwards.
- •Hydration tests as a safer alternative to extreme cuts
- •Need for more weight classes (e.g., 185–205 gap)
- •Title fights: why no weight allowance vs non-title fights getting one
- •Practical issues: fighters will try to ‘finesse’ any system
- 43:01 – 1:00:02
Grappling injuries and CTE concerns: why ‘training’ can be the most dangerous part
Joe and Max discuss how grappling competitions and even everyday jiu-jitsu can create freak injuries and cumulative head trauma. They talk about chokes, concussions from collisions, and why many MMA pros avoid tournaments.
- •Chokes and potential brain damage; evolving understanding
- •Head impacts in grappling (collisions, knees, snap-downs)
- •Competition risk: Cub Swanson knee injury example
- •Max says he gets more injuries from jiu-jitsu than kickboxing
- 1:00:02 – 1:07:33
Life off-camp: family time, roller rinks, travel plans, and LA vs Australia crowds
Max shares what he does when not in camp—time with his son, racing, roller skating, and relaxing. Joe riffs on population density and stress, comparing LA to Australia and how crowding changes behavior.
- •Post-fight decompression: beach, Slurpees, low-risk fun
- •Dana’s comments about a possible Australia rematch destination
- •Australia’s low population vs US scale; LA driving stress
- •Discussion of census counts and how density affects behavior
- 1:07:33 – 1:11:31
Hawaii identity & representation: the flag walkout and sovereignty talk
Max tells the story of being blocked from walking out with the Hawaiian flag during the Reebok era until Dana intervened. Joe and Max discuss Hawaii’s unique culture, distance from the mainland, and why it feels distinct from other US states.
- •Reebok-era restrictions: country flags allowed, state flags not
- •Dana White approves Max walking out with the Hawaiian flag
- •Joe’s view: Hawaii feels like its own nation culturally/geographically
- •Island culture: reverence for nature and distinct identity
- 1:11:31 – 1:20:28
Surfing, big-wave fear, and Kelly Slater’s Surf Ranch pricing debate
They talk surfing as ‘fighting Mother Nature,’ react to a terrifying big-wave wipeout video, and discuss artificial wave pools. A comedic detour ensues about Surf Ranch costs and what’s public vs private pricing.
- •Surfing danger vs fighting: nature is uncontrollable
- •Big-wave wipeout clip and pop-up vest reliability concerns
- •Kelly Slater’s Surf Ranch as a learning/practice tool
- •Clarifying Surf Ranch pricing: $10k private vs ~$99 admission
- 1:20:28 – 1:26:33
Gaming obsession: PC vs controller, addiction, and fighters streaming for real money
Joe and Max bond over video games, describing how addictive competitive shooters can be. They compare mouse/keyboard precision to controllers and discuss how fighters like Sean O’Malley monetize gaming and streaming.
- •PC gaming accuracy vs controller delay and limitations
- •Joe’s past: extreme gaming hours and quitting to regain balance
- •Max cutting games out during camp to protect sleep/recovery
- •Esports/streaming income: O’Malley and charity winnings
- 1:26:33 – 1:30:35
Growing up in Waianae: meth prevalence, avoiding drugs, and betting on himself
Max explains how exposure to meth and family/community turmoil shaped his choice to stay drug-free. He describes early confidence, academic ‘hacks,’ and the drive to avoid becoming a cautionary hometown story.
- •Childhood memories of violence tied to meth (‘ice’)
- •Max: never tried drugs, including marijuana
- •Seeing talented peers derailed by drugs and lack of direction
- •Motivation to escape the ‘high school glory days’ trap
- 1:30:35 – 1:34:07
Origin story: from baseball dreams to a kickboxing fight after three days of training
Max recounts wanting an MLB scholarship before discovering combat sports. He tells the improbable story of accepting a kickboxing fight almost immediately, winning, and then publicly declaring he’d become a pro fighter.
- •Initial goal: MLB and college scholarship; academic focus
- •Found kickboxing after baseball season; sparred day one
- •Accepted a fight after ~3 days of training to get in ‘for free’
- •Mom approved; early wins and K-1 inspiration
- 1:34:07 – 2:05:39
UFC breakthrough, early losses, and building the team that fueled his championship run
Max describes getting his UFC contract on the day his son was born and calling his skeptical brother. He reflects on losses to Bermudez and Conor, lacking a dedicated striking coach early on, and how bringing in Ivan Flores changed everything—plus his trademark cardio approach.
- •UFC contract arrives at hospital; son born same day
- •Brother’s doubt becomes fuel; ‘remember that laugh’ story
- •No striking coach for first seven UFC fights; even learned from UFC video game combos
- •Strength & conditioning approach (4x/week), training order philosophy, endurance mindset
