JRE MMA Show #96 with Justin Gaethje & Trevor Wittman

Joe Rogan 0:00 Boom! Trainer of the year, Trevor Whitman. You might be. You might get it.

Trevor Wittman 0:05 We'll see. I mean, I- I- I don't have any-

Joe Rogan 0:06 It's ... You definitely-

Justin Gaethje 0:06 You definitely have a short list.

Trevor Wittman 0:08 I, I got, I got not that many athletes, so that's where ... You know, when I won it two years ago, that was, uh, unique to me, 'cause I went in there like, "Man, I don't deserve this." I, I remember having 40 athletes and the guys who have all these athletes, that's putting in so much time. I had three athletes at the time, so that was cool. But again, I think, uh, performing and doing good as a coach is one thing, but also, you know, putting in that full time. When you're running a gym and having 40 athletes, it's a nonstop, 60 hours. You're not doing anything with your children and-

Joe Rogan 0:38 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 0:38 ... that's, that's, uh ... But then when I seen the, the athletes talking on the screen and talking about, you know, Rose talking about changing the world, but just being good people, then I was like, "Oh, yeah." And I remember re- repeating to myself when I went through a tough time and lost all my athletes, we kind of had to split. And it all happened through when Nate Marquardt had that issue with the, the TRT.

Joe Rogan 0:57 Mm.

Trevor Wittman 0:58 And, uh, you know, I had talked about the gray area, you know. If you're gonna allow someone to do that, you have that space. Like, he-

Joe Rogan 1:05 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 1:05 ... instantly got shunned for it.

Joe Rogan 1:06 Right.

Trevor Wittman 1:06 And he, he's got children. He had a new kid on the way, and I was just like, "Man, he got shunned." We knew about it prior and I was just like, "They said you could do it, but they don't know how to test the levels." And that situation turned into a bigger situation, and then I ended up starting over with athletes. And I remember repeating to myself, "You're the best coach in the world. No one's better." And I remember just repeating that. I had a new gym that was big, 13,000 square feet. I was paying it by myself.

Joe Rogan 1:31 Wow.

Trevor Wittman 1:31 But I just kept saying it over and over and over, and then when I was sitting there that night, I was looking at, looking at him. And we won like seven awards that night with just the three of us. And I was like, "Man, that's, that's super cool." That's when it kind of hit and I was like, "Oh, man."

Joe Rogan 1:43 There's something to be said for having a small stable of athletes versus like, there's some of these super gyms where a lot of guys wind up complaining. A lot of guys wind up saying they don't get the attention they deserve. They, they feel like they're staggering or they're, they're, they're stagnant there. And it's just, it's not ... I don't think it's the right way.

Trevor Wittman 2:02 It's so different.

Joe Rogan 2:03 When you've got a-

Trevor Wittman 2:03 I'll tell you what. Take-

Joe Rogan 2:05 I mean-

Trevor Wittman 2:05 Takes me back to my boxing days. I only had three or four athletes at the most and I was running with them and, and had them at my house and I was feeding them and they were at my house for camp. And it was one on one for everything. For the psyche. I mean, that's, that's such an important part when it comes to fighting outside of Justin Gaethje. Justin Gaethje, I learned from this guy when it comes to mental. Like, he's just ingrained with like the strongest mental, and I love that part. Like, that's why I love working with Rose, 'cause the mental part. But one on one is key.

Joe Rogan 2:34 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Wittman 2:34 That is key to being able to, to, to be with your athletes. And I'll tell you, it's like a hobby again. It ain't like a job. It's like passion, you know? And you, you, you never really wanna do it for the money. You need to pay your bills, but the key is, it's the athlete. It's about them.

Joe Rogan 2:49 When-

Justin Gaethje 2:49 I-

Joe Rogan 2:49 Justin, when you came to Trevor, like, how much striking experience did you have?

Justin Gaethje 2:54 Zero. Zero.

Joe Rogan 2:54 That's hilarious.

Justin Gaethje 2:55 Yeah, no, I was, uh ... I had five amateur fights. I'd never, never been in a street fight, not a one-on-one street fight, a couple big brawls. Um, never thrown a punch, never been punched, and I got hit hard in my fifth fight, almost got knocked out. I was like, "Man, I need to find ... If I'm gonna do this, I need to find a coach."

Joe Rogan 3:11 So you (laughs) so you had five amateur MMA fights with zero striking training?

Justin Gaethje 3:18 Zero. I was just, uh-

Joe Rogan 3:19 (laughs) Right?

Justin Gaethje 3:19 I would just take ... So right after wrestling was over-

Joe Rogan 3:21 (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 3:21 ... I would just be like, "I wanna fight." And then I was, you know, I was in the best shape of my life after wrestling season.

Joe Rogan 3:25 Right.

Justin Gaethje 3:26 So yeah, I was a machine still, but I just had no, no skills. It was go out there and wrestle, take them down, slams. I was, uh, you know, I got my nickname, The Highlight, before I ever knew how to strike, and that was from throwing, tossing people.

Joe Rogan 3:38 Wow.

Trevor Wittman 3:38 I gotta tell you, when he came in my gym, so I met him at one of the fights. And I thought he was a Japanese guy, 'cause I was traveling to Tokyo a lot with Duane. And, uh, his name, Gaethje, for some reason, just I pictured a, a Japanese guy.

Joe Rogan 3:50 (laughs) Yeah, he kinda sounds like he could be Japanese.

Trevor Wittman 3:52 And I seen him fight and I was like, "Oh my God, it was spectacular." The way he was throwing people and putting them on their head, I was just like amazed. And I talked to him in the locker room. I was like, "Dude, I'm a huge fan. Like, your fighting style is so unique." And then he's like, "I'd love to come to your gym." So he comes down, he comes in and he's like, "I'm here to fight." And I was like, "Cool." And I was like, "All right, well, we're sparring today." Then he's like, "Cool, yeah, yeah, I wanna fight." And I'm like-

Joe Rogan 4:12 (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 4:12 (laughs)

Trevor Wittman 4:12 ... "All right, cool. Let's go back there."

Joe Rogan 4:13 (laughs)

Trevor Wittman 4:13 I was like, "Well, we're sparring today. Let's get back here." Then I goes like, "You have any gear?" And he's like, "Cool. What g- what gear do I need?" And I'm just like, "Oh my God," like, "You're out here fighting."

Joe Rogan 4:21 (laughs)

Trevor Wittman 4:22 I take him to the equipment and I was like, "All right, get some gloves, get some shin guards."

Joe Rogan 4:25 What year was this?

Trevor Wittman 4:25 This is-

Justin Gaethje 4:27 2009.

Trevor Wittman 4:28 Yeah. Around there.

Joe Rogan 4:29 Imagine, imagine that moment. If someone told you, "11 years from now, you're looking at one of the baddest motherfuckers on earth."

Trevor Wittman 4:35 I'd say it took me a week or two to know. Like, yeah, his mindset and the way he trained, like this first session that he had was one of the most unique. So I tell him right about this equipment.

Joe Rogan 4:44 (laughs)

Trevor Wittman 4:45 I'm like, "Get your, get your equipment on." I was like, "Get one of those head gears." And he goes, he jumps up at me and he's like, "Why I gotta wear a helmet?" Like, "No one else is wearing helmets." And I'm like-

Joe Rogan 4:55 (laughs)

Trevor Wittman 4:55 "No one's wearing a helmet. Why the fuck do I wanna wear a helmet?"

Justin Gaethje 4:56 (laughs)

Trevor Wittman 4:56 I'm like, "Who is this guy?" So he's sparring with this guy named Vinny Lopez and-

Justin Gaethje 5:00 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 5:00 ... he gets hit with an uppercut while he's hitting Vinny with a overhand. And he turns around and goes, "Ooh." And I'm like, "Oh shit, he's hurt." You know? So I go over to him, I'm like, "You good?" And he's like, "That felt so fucking good." He's looking at his fist.

Joe Rogan 5:13 (laughs)

Trevor Wittman 5:13 And he, they both cracked each other so hard, like KO shots. Like, it was, it was nice. And from that time, I was like, "Dude, you are super unique."

Justin Gaethje 5:22 I was like, "I've never punched somebody like that before."

Trevor Wittman 5:24 (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 5:24 I was like, "I know that fucking hurt, dude."

Trevor Wittman 5:26 (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 5:26 I look ... He's like, you know, uh, Vinny looks like a mean ... He's all tatted up neck down, Mexican, you know, looks like he's straight out of prison. Um-

Trevor Wittman 5:36 He's Puerto Rican. I wanna say that for 30 seconds.

Justin Gaethje 5:39 Puerto- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:39 (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 5:40 He's Puerto Rican. Uh, he looks mean, dude. He's mean. He looks mean and yeah. They ... I was like, "You gotta go with him?" They're like, "Yep." I was like, "All right." And then I hit him-

Joe Rogan 5:48 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 5:48 ... and I was like, "Oh, shit."

Trevor Wittman 5:49 And then he-

Justin Gaethje 5:50 But, um ... Real, real quick before I forget. The one on one thing I was saying, you've heard like five, six guys, uh, as we've been going through these fights say how they appreciate the one-on-one time-

Joe Rogan 5:59 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 5:59 And, you know, that's-Going back to what that was, uh, I don't, I don't wanna miss that earlier when, when you were talking about that. That w- that's, that's the biggest thing for me. He's at every single one of my training sessions, talking to me like he was talking to me in my fight for sparring. Um, when he needs to call, throw the towel in or call the fight, he knows. He watches me every day, um, and this one-on-one thing is what these guys are, are understanding is so important, um-

Joe Rogan 6:22 It's everything.

Justin Gaethje 6:23 ... when it comes to fighting at the high level.

Joe Rogan 6:24 It's, it's, uh, having that unique relationship with a trainer, having a trainer where you and the trainer are tight like that, like, uh, DJ had it with Matt Hume. You know, there's a lot of guys who have that kinda one-on GSP had it with Firas Zahabi. That, that relationship is so critical. It's, it's, it's so i- it's so imp- 'cause you're going in there together. Like, you're, you're helping each other. You understand, you've, you know his whole process from begin- I mean, literally with him, you know his entire fighting process from the beginning that first time he was there. Like, that, that's invaluable, man. These guys that are jumping into these super camps and the person is just sorta giving you random general motivation in between the corner, telling you to keep your hands up, work the jab, all that. You know, that's not enough. It's not, it's, it's not optimal. I really feel like the optimal relationship is, uh, a trainer that really knows the athlete well and is with them in, in every, in every training session.

Trevor Wittman 7:21 Oh, 100%. And I think, uh, there's a huge issue. Uh, first off, uh, big training camps are key just 'cause the partners. I mean, you will get champion-

Joe Rogan 7:30 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 7:30 ... level fighters outta there because you's- you're seeing all different styles. You're seeing wrestlers, grapplers, southpaws, all different sizes.

Joe Rogan 7:36 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Wittman 7:37 So it's great for that, and you adapt to different athletes. The, the hard part with that is y- most of the guys train in jujitsu somewhere else. They go somewhere else for their conditioning. They go, they go to all these different places and all the coaches are, they, they mean well. They're all like, "Oh, man, you're six weeks out. We gotta train hard." And you're going from one hard session to the next hard session, to the next hard session. And when you're with them all the time, I pull back a lot on him. And that's the key to peaking. Like, a lot of times people just push hard, push hard, push hard. And that's another huge issue in this sport is over-training.

Joe Rogan 8:08 Yeah, guys get flat.

Trevor Wittman 8:08 I mean, it's, it's again that injuries in this sport are, are, are common all the time, and most injuries are happening in training.

Joe Rogan 8:15 Uh, when you pull back, are you doing it based on just your general feeling of how he looks and how he's performing, what he's saying? Or are you using heart rate variability, using a, like a Whoop strap or a heart rate monitor or anything?

Trevor Wittman 8:28 No, I, uh, a lot of those are, are tech- Uh, when it comes to those types of things, my intuition has always played best for me.

Joe Rogan 8:34 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Wittman 8:35 And knowing each athlete, each athlete is different. Some athletes need to, to fight at a different heart rate than another.

Joe Rogan 8:42 Mm.

Trevor Wittman 8:42 Uh, they, they perform better at a, at a steady high heart rate. Some need to spike like in the beginning when he loved to fight, he loved to see people drown and their eyes open, so we trained like that. He wanted to be the most exciting fighter. So I, I'm there to make sure I'm hitting his goals, not my goals. Like, I'm there for the athlete. I train every athlete differently.

Joe Rogan 9:01 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Wittman 9:01 And it's all about purpose. Like, what's your purpose for fighting? What do you wanna be? And his has changed in the last four fights. Uh, four fights ago, he actually said he wanted to be a world champion, and before that, "I wanna be the most exciting fighter in the world." And it was about going out there causing those wars. And, and in the gym, he was sharp and could box and could really do some athletic stuff, but he loved to see people drown.

Joe Rogan 9:20 It's just amazing how technical your striking is, considering the fact that you've really been only doing it for 11 years. I mean, you're one of the best, if not the best striker in the 155 pound division. That's a fact.

Justin Gaethje 9:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:33 And it's the- that clean sharpness of your ... Like your fucking left hook, man, is one of the best I've ever seen. It's so fast-

Justin Gaethje 9:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:39 ... and so there's no fat in there.

Justin Gaethje 9:41 He's been telling me, "Uh, one day, you know, your left hook's gonna be your best punch." And I was like, "What are you talking about?" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:46 Dude.

Justin Gaethje 9:47 And yeah, man. It, um ... I'm just, I've played all sports. You know, growing up I was a, I wa- I was a pitcher, I was a quarterback, uh, punter, kicker.

Joe Rogan 9:54 Do you think there's a benefit in that? That you just really-

Justin Gaethje 9:56 Yeah, I mean throwing a right hand-

Joe Rogan 9:57 ... as an athlete?

Justin Gaethje 9:57 Throwing a right hand is throwing a baseball.

Joe Rogan 9:59 Mm-hmm.

Justin Gaethje 9:59 Um, you know, my kick does not necessarily ... I'm just kicking him as hard as I can. Now it's, uh, placement, timing is the most important thing there. But those mechanics that I developed through those, uh, playing other sports, I think has helped me so much. Um, just my athletic ability.

Joe Rogan 10:14 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 10:14 And then once I found ... You know, this man is a genius. I can't tell you how the process that he started, uh, 10 years ago, you know. I, I had no idea ... I still don't know what the heck we're doing.

Joe Rogan 10:26 (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 10:26 Um, (laughs) I'm telling you, it's just a-

Joe Rogan 10:28 You just listen.

Justin Gaethje 10:29 It's just ... It's j- I, I ... You know, how, how high you want me to jump? That's all. You know, every day I step in there, that's what I'm asking him. And, um, he is an artist. You know, his mind ... You know, I can't see ... Even when he's ... We're talking about our, you know, our, our Onyx equipment. He's telling me these things and I'm like, you know, I can't put it into my head. I can't see it, but I, you know, I know. And then once it's a finished product, it's like holy crap. Same thing when I fight. You know, every time after I fight, I'm like, "Holy shit." Like, I can't believe. You know, we've been working on this for 10 years, but more specifically the, the specific details that I, that I executed in that fight, last fight. You know, we had a short time and there was really certain things that we, uh, he instilled that I had no idea he was instilling. And, um, you know, just came, came to fruition on that night. And it was, it was spectacular to watch. It s- spectacular to go back and watch, uh, after a fight every time, every fight.

Joe Rogan 11:17 Trevor, how important is it for a guy to be a coachable athlete too? That's one of the things you and Luke, Luke Cardillo both said after the fight that he's the most coachable athlete.

Trevor Wittman 11:26 Uh, that's key. That's ... The whole thing is I'm there to assist. And, uh, you know, I, I, I, I put myself as the co-pilot. Like, I'm there to draw the map and you've gotta trust me around these corners. Like, you're the driver. You're the one that, uh, that knows, but you have to trust me. And to be able to be coachable, I mean, if not, I'm just a water boy.

Joe Rogan 11:44 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 11:44 You know? And, uh, h- that's why I'm only co- coaching a few now too, is we gotta, we, we gotta be in this together and you gotta trust me, and I get- I gotta be there for you. And if you trust me, then every decision that I make for you, you've gotta trust. Whether it's, "Hey, don't take this fight." I mean, with the fight, the last fight, I was like, "No, you're not taking a fight." And he's like, "Come on, coach."

Joe Rogan 12:03 W- what fight is that?

Trevor Wittman 12:04 This is the Toney fight when he first got offered for the first time.And I was like, "No, we were at sparring session." And he's like, "Why not?" And I'm like, "'Cause you said you'd never take a short-notice fight." And I'm like, "No." You know. And then he's like-

Joe Rogan 12:14 Yeah, it was like 11 days, right?

Trevor Wittman 12:15 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:15 Wasn't it something crazy like that?

Trevor Wittman 12:16 And he, but we've been training hard, like, all the... And then he hit me with all these points. And he's like, "Dude, with the coronavirus going on, who cares?" He's like, "Let me get in there. I need to fight someone right now. I need to release all this." And his little basic points, I looked at him, I said, "All right. Is it gonna... Are you gonna do it again? Are you gonna stick to your goal on the next one? 'Cause I, I might let you off on this one." And he said, "I will never take a short-notice fight." That's why the second time it was offered, he was even more pissed about it. And I was just like... He's like, "The other one was seven days out. Like, I got nothing to lose, you know. I'll go out on my shield."

Joe Rogan 12:46 So this was the f... Let's, let's be clear for everybody.

Trevor Wittman 12:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:49 The, the first time was the, the, the Lemoore, California one.

Trevor Wittman 12:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:52 The Tai Chi Palace.

Justin Gaethje 12:53 It was 18th.

Trevor Wittman 12:54 Yep.

Joe Rogan 12:54 April 18th.

Justin Gaethje 12:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:54 And that was how many days out?

Justin Gaethje 12:57 So I got the call, I think-

Trevor Wittman 12:58 I think it was 10 or something like that.

Justin Gaethje 12:59 No, I think it was, uh, it was f- like 15 days before that fight, I got the call one night. The next day, I went... Well, you know, I called him, he said no that night, went to sparring the next day, and then that's when I talked, you know, not talked him into it, but I, I did like seven hard rounds. Uh, felt great, you know. I had been sparring so much. And so he was like, um... I was like, "Let's do it." You know, I talked him into it. And then so we, we go hard, and then I think it was... When did they cancel? I think it was s- 10 days before the fight, they canceled it.

Joe Rogan 13:29 Mm-hmm.

Justin Gaethje 13:30 And that's when, you know, it went out the window. And then, um, they called me-

Joe Rogan 13:35 So did you-

Justin Gaethje 13:35 So then I-

Joe Rogan 13:35 ... did you just fall right out of camp? Or did you keep training?

Justin Gaethje 13:37 So yeah, I tried... I was down to 168. They called me at like 3:00 PM and that night I went to sleep at like 182. Like-

Joe Rogan 13:45 (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 13:45 ... I went hard. I went... (laughs) I, you know, just terrible choices. I was like-

Joe Rogan 13:48 What'd you eat? What'd you eat?

Justin Gaethje 13:49 I took-

Joe Rogan 13:50 What'd you go to?

Justin Gaethje 13:50 I went straight to a, it's called McGill's World of Ice Cream. I got-

Joe Rogan 13:53 (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 13:54 ... you know, double scoop with the waffle cone. And then we ate, uh, Pizza Hut for breakfast the next morning.

Joe Rogan 13:59 Ooh.

Justin Gaethje 13:59 We had pancakes, for... And my, I had my cousin Bosquito there with me. He was helping me, uh, you know, help with, with my cooking and, uh, helping me around the house, uh, during that, that, those hard, you know, 20 days. And yeah, we went hard.

Joe Rogan 14:11 Did you just-

Justin Gaethje 14:12 It sounds like. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:13 ... go so hard? (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 14:13 And then three days later they called me and they're like, "You know, it's May 9th." And I was like, "Fuck that." I was like, "I don't take shor- short-notice fights." 'Cause like this last one was, you know, 10 days. I get the benefit of the doubt of it being a late, late-notice fight. And now they want me to do May 9th. You know, that, that goes out the window that, you know, me... That's not... Now, it's not really a late replacement fight. It is, but it is for me and it is in general, but, you know, the, the general public would think, you know, this is... "He got a full camp and this is a real fight," blah, blah, blah. So I was like, "No," like, "I'm not doing it."

Joe Rogan 14:46 So-

Justin Gaethje 14:47 Um-

Joe Rogan 14:47 ... y- well, let me get this straight. So you're not doing it because you fell out of camp and started eating again?

Justin Gaethje 14:51 Because, because so the, the, the 20-day notice was like something very special. Like, that was something that I, I definitely could've performed and I would've performed. And I think-

Joe Rogan 15:01 This is the April 18th fight?

Justin Gaethje 15:02 ... this is the April 18th... I think I would've performed, uh, and I think-

Joe Rogan 15:05 Mm-hmm.

Justin Gaethje 15:05 ... I would've won. I wouldn't have been as confident. So I was, I was terrified. When they called me that night, I was terrified. I couldn't sleep. The next day I woke up terrified, um, 'cause I knew, I knew that this is not what I do. This is not how I do it. This is a hu-... But-

Joe Rogan 15:18 Because you weren't fully prepared.

Justin Gaethje 15:19 'Cause there's no way to fully prepare in that amount of time.

Joe Rogan 15:22 Right.

Justin Gaethje 15:23 In my mind, in my mind.

Joe Rogan 15:24 Right.

Justin Gaethje 15:24 When I go in there and do, I have to get my mind in a very, very special place.

Joe Rogan 15:27 How much of it is that and how much of it is physical?

Justin Gaethje 15:30 You know, like...

Joe Rogan 15:31 Physically, how prepared, how far-

Justin Gaethje 15:31 I don't know. I don't as-... I don't-

Joe Rogan 15:33 ... prepared were you to be?

Justin Gaethje 15:33 ... I don't have that question. I don't answer that qu-... I can't answer that question for you.

Joe Rogan 15:36 But here's the question-

Justin Gaethje 15:37 'Cause I don't process that.

Joe Rogan 15:38 But I'm-

Justin Gaethje 15:38 That's not something I ever process.

Joe Rogan 15:39 This, what I'm saying in this way though, is what, uh, how physically prepared were you? Were you in training?

Justin Gaethje 15:44 Yeah, so I was just, um, I was, I was my main, I was the main training partner for Neil Magny-

Joe Rogan 15:50 Oh, okay.

Justin Gaethje 15:50 ... Ogden Hubbard when they fought in Vegas.

Joe Rogan 15:52 Oh, okay.

Justin Gaethje 15:52 Um, I was, I was in shape. I was in shape. Um-

Trevor Wittman 15:56 So the second fight, let me jump in here. The second fight I thought was a way better, way better, uh, place to be from a conditioning standpoint because he was already in shape prior to that first one. We just went two weeks so hard, like, we were trying to get, get his body in, in shape quick. And that's ha-... That's a hard thing to do. Then he went and gained 12 pounds, which in t-... We were four weeks out at that point, which is perfect 'cause the fourth week out, I always pull back on and let their body recover 'cause your third and your second week are our peak weeks. Those are the weeks that we need to really hit, hit, hit prime, and, and really push hard. And it was perfect fit. I'm like, "Dude, we take this time off, you going up in heat, and now you're, you're ready to go again." You, you got that little, that little, uh, uh, fire back in your body 'cause you're able to eat whatever you want. And I thought it was perfect timing from how I train my athletes from a conditioning standpoint. And I actually had to talk him into that one. I was like, "This is even better." Like, "You... This is perfect for you for a five-round fight."

Joe Rogan 16:49 So from your perspective, it's like he had a chance to recover, eat all that food, take a little break.

Trevor Wittman 16:54 Yep.

Joe Rogan 16:54 And that's good 'cause your body gets to charge back-

Trevor Wittman 16:56 Yep.

Joe Rogan 16:56 ... up again and then grind back down.

Trevor Wittman 16:58 'Cause six and five on, on week six and week five are hard weeks. They're like a, a start to those, those, uh, last two weeks of peaking. 'Cause our, our fight week, we slow down a little bit and we just turn the engine on, turn it off. So we go, uh, six and five on, on the weeks of really hard, then we pull back on week four. We'll take like three days that are really light and then push it a little bit. And then week three and week two are the ones that I'm trying to get him to peak, get... hit five rounds. We're not doing six rounds, we're not doing seven. We're making sure that we can go five minutes hard for every round, be sharp, not get lazy. And I thought it fit perfect to-

Joe Rogan 17:31 So when you're saying week two, you mean two weeks out?

Trevor Wittman 17:32 Two weeks out, yep.

Joe Rogan 17:33 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 17:33 Right before we leave for the fight.

Joe Rogan 17:34 What do you prefer, like i- if you had, uh, a blueprint, like you, they, they came to you, "Trevor, how much time do you want before a fight?" Like, "We'll schedule it around your time."

Trevor Wittman 17:43 If you're in decent shape, eight weeks.

Joe Rogan 17:44 Eight weeks.

Trevor Wittman 17:44 If you're out of shape, 12 weeks.

Joe Rogan 17:47 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Wittman 17:47 12 weeks 'cause you take three or four w-... Uh, if you don't lift weights for a little bit and then you come back and lift weights and you haven't lifted for six months or three months, you're gonna get real sore.

Joe Rogan 17:57 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 17:57 So you've gotta have that break-in process where your body, 'cause your body's gonna be shutting down and you start to, "Ugh." So you have to get through that process, uh, just the pre-training, and then you start to hit it hard because you can't just go in hitting it hard if you're 12 weeks out.

Joe Rogan 18:09 Hmm.

Trevor Wittman 18:09 You just can't.

Joe Rogan 18:10 Mm-hmm.

Justin Gaethje 18:10 Interesting.

Trevor Wittman 18:10 It breaks you down.

Justin Gaethje 18:11 Yeah. You're gonna get hurt.

Joe Rogan 18:12 Yeah. So why did you feel that that was not a good fight, the May 9th fight? Like-

Justin Gaethje 18:17 So I had no idea I can... my body would respond as well as it did and I didn't think I could be ready a hund- to 100%, uh, without... I've always done 12 weeks. That's my... That's all I've known. That's all I've ever done.

Joe Rogan 18:29 So you felt like the first decision was just like a split decision. It was the middle of COVID-19. "Fuck it. I'm gonna do it anyway." And then when they came to you the second time, you're like, "No, no, no, no, no. I, I want a real cage fight."

Justin Gaethje 18:38 Yeah. I said, "Why can't we just push it to May 26th?"

Joe Rogan 18:40 Right.

Justin Gaethje 18:40 You know, give me three extra weeks then I get my whole... then I get my whole eight-

Joe Rogan 18:43 Right.

Justin Gaethje 18:43 ... to 10 weeks.

Joe Rogan 18:44 Right.

Justin Gaethje 18:44 And that's all I asked for. Um, so that was my mindset. When they called me, 'cause I knew they were gonna call me, the day before I was like, "Watch, they're gonna fucking call me and then they want me to fight May 9th." Or something like that. And then... and I knew it. And then my manager called me. He's like, "May 9th, let's go." I was like, "Fuck that."

Joe Rogan 18:59 (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 18:59 I was like, "No."

Joe Rogan 19:00 He was so mad.

Justin Gaethje 19:01 No. I was like, "Fuck that." I was like, "I ain't no fucking puppy. I'm not gonna dance when they want me to dance." It's like I said I don't take late replacement fights. This is now a late replacement... You know, this is different circumstances. These aren't the circumstances everyone... And even he was like flabbergasted. He's like, "What are you talking about? It's the same thing." I'm like, "No, it's not the same thing." Like to me it's not, you know, like 'cause... I don't know. I just... Confidence is everything. I know I can perform, you know. I-

Joe Rogan 19:25 But you wanted everything to be done right.

Justin Gaethje 19:27 It was the biggest fight of my life.

Joe Rogan 19:28 Right. Of course.

Justin Gaethje 19:29 You know. And... But ultimately and then, and then when I thought about it I was like, "It's the only..." If it's anybody's fault, it's my fault, you know, 'cause I knew this... You know, I knew I was gonna fight again and if I'm not... If I wasn't... I was training hard, but I wasn't training with a mindset, you know, that I need to... I have an old-school wrestling mentality, you know. You, you have to see the prize, you know, every single morning you wake up, you know, the guy, the guy that you're gonna fight, you know. That wasn't there. That wasn't there when I woke up in the morning, so I didn't feel like I was preparing in the proper way-

Joe Rogan 19:58 So you're s-

Justin Gaethje 19:58 ... for something at th- at... that was at this level in my life.

Joe Rogan 20:01 So you don't just need 10 weeks for your body. You want it for your mind as well.

Justin Gaethje 20:06 That's the most... Yeah. I mean, that's the most important part to me. I've been training since I was four. My body is... My body is a machine. Um, you know, I do... I, I didn't know I could get ready in that amount of time. That... Well, that's what it comes down to. I had no idea, um, because I've never tried it.

Joe Rogan 20:22 Mm-hmm.

Justin Gaethje 20:23 Um, but I wasn't better. I had done better between fights, um, since, since I fought Cowboy than I had ever done between fights in, in the, in the, in the fact that I was staying in shape, running, um, you know, I had a treadmill at my house. I was still sparring. I'd never... You know, I took like two months off sparring, three months off sparring, but then I was sparring for three, four months before I got that call, you know, to, uh, to get in there and fight.

Joe Rogan 20:47 You, you made a crazy shift in your career in that you started off as this wrestler, but when I start... first started fu- watching you fight in World Series of Fighting, I was like, "Look at how this motherfucker throws leg kicks." It was kinda crazy like you would throw leg kicks while you were working the body like in close, like even... ve- very... You know, everybody's got their own sort of way of m- moving. Like, everybody's body mechanics are different, but you were throwing these like crazy in-close leg kicks, like you'd be like-

Justin Gaethje 21:17 From the clinch, yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:18 ... on top of people.

Justin Gaethje 21:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:19 And you were chopping at their legs. When did you make this shift? Because you don't take anybody down now, which is kinda nuts. If you really think about the fact that you were an All-American wrestler and your, your, your-

Justin Gaethje 21:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:30 ... base is in wrestling, you have not had a single fucking take-down attempt in the UFC.

Justin Gaethje 21:35 No, but I, uh, you know, I got taken down for a s- for two seconds when Michael Johnson rocked me.

Joe Rogan 21:41 Mm-hmm.

Justin Gaethje 21:42 Um, I don't know how they count take-downs in this sport, but it's certainly not like wrestling. A mat re-

Joe Rogan 21:47 Not a legit take-down. Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 21:48 Yeah. It's not... Uh, Eddie and Dustin tried to take me down, but I scrambled right out of that. I was a great defensive wrestler. Um, I- when I wrestle... I wrestled Jordan Burroughs twice. You know, the first time I stopped his double leg for two and a half periods and then, you know, he pretty much collapsed my sternum and I couldn't take a breath for three months after that, but I mean... and then it, then it, then it, then it gave in, you know, then it broke. My body broke and I couldn't stop it no more. The second time I wrestled him, I stopped every single, you know, double leg he had. Nobody stops that double leg. Um. Fuck was I going with that?

22:19 I don't know.

22:20 God damn it.

22:21 All right. It's you're a bad motherfucker. I'll come back to you.

Joe Rogan 22:22 Well, we were talking about your shift between being a wrestler to becoming-

Justin Gaethje 22:25 The hidden secret.

22:25 Yeah. So, so, I'm sorry. So I was a defensive wrestler. I was-

Joe Rogan 22:28 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 22:28 ... never a great offensive wrestler. You know.

Joe Rogan 22:30 Mm-hmm.

Justin Gaethje 22:30 It was... It was so hard to take me down. When I was All-American, I started in the pigtail round, um, and I beat four... uh, three... number eight seed, number six seed, and I think I beat the number of 10 seed or something, but I gave up the first take-down in every single one of those matches and then they broke because of my defensive pressure, you know. I was constantly hanging on them and my, my leg kicks... Wrestlers, they like to separate wrestling from fighting. I'm just doing the s- I'm just doing them both in the same thing. In the clinch, the clinch is where I'm the most dangerous. With those kicks that you're talking about, that's... if your hands are on, you could s-... you could feel where their weight is shifting, which way they're moving, which way they wanna move, and, um, it's just constantly getting them to, to put all their pressure on a, on a foot and fire a kick, um, from that range. And that's all wrestling. That's... I'm using my wrestling so much when I'm fighting, like it's... it's... When... That's when I hear people say that... And it's so hard to see that with the... Even with the untrained eye or the trained eye it'd be hard to see, but I'm wrestling so much in there. Um-

Joe Rogan 23:29 Right. I understand that, but, so that's interesting that your wrestling allows you to do that from the clinch 'cause you have a better understanding about where they're putting their weight 'cause you're manipulating them around.

Justin Gaethje 23:38 Yep.

Joe Rogan 23:38 And then when they add the weight on that leg, you're chopping at it.

Justin Gaethje 23:41 Can't check if your weight-

Joe Rogan 23:43 Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 23:43 If your weight is on, you cannot pick your weight up to check.

Joe Rogan 23:45 I was so bummed out I didn't call the Mich- Michael Johnson fight 'cause I was a big fan of yours. And when you were coming to the UFC, I was like, "Oh, shit." I was like, "This is gonna be fun." And then I, and then when I found out you were doing that Michael Johnson fight, I was like, "Fuck." I'm like, "I can't call that one. I'm not gonna be doing that one." And then I got the chance to watch it, and I believe it was the night before we had a card.

Justin Gaethje 24:03 Yep.

Joe Rogan 24:04 So I watched it in my hotel room on, uh, on my laptop and I was like, "Goddamn."

Justin Gaethje 24:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:10 That was a... There's a few fights that I'm like, "Fuck, I wish I called that fight," 'cause that fight was madness.

Justin Gaethje 24:16 Fuck, that was.

Joe Rogan 24:16 That was just madness.

Justin Gaethje 24:17 I have fun at the corner. I've had so much fun with him in the corner.

Joe Rogan 24:20 Woo!

Justin Gaethje 24:20 Like it's... I, I've, I've giggled a few times. And, uh, right before, uh, he got stopped by Poirier, he said something to me in the corner, just made me crack up. He si- sits down and he's like-"He don't even hit hard." And I was just like-

Joe Rogan 24:33 (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 24:33 I just look at him and I'm just like, "Dude, you just have so much fun in there." And he, he really enjoys to fight. Like, he enjoys the process. And you know, I've worked with a lot of athletes and when they, when, when most people say it, they don't mean that at all.

Joe Rogan 24:46 Right.

Justin Gaethje 24:46 They're like, get ... They're psyching their self up. And he is so unique. Like, he loves to be in there. When it's fight night, like, he'll say... Uh, he, he said it to me twice, and I was like, "Oh, really?" Because he's like, "I'm fucking nervous." And I'm like, "Really?" And he's like, "Because I'm not nervous at all."

Joe Rogan 25:01 (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 25:02 And I'm just like, "Get that laugh right there."

Joe Rogan 25:04 I was like, "I don't understand why I can't do anything."

Justin Gaethje 25:06 And I'm just like-

Joe Rogan 25:06 "I don't understand."

Justin Gaethje 25:07 He's like, "Dude."

Joe Rogan 25:08 (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 25:08 It's fucking weird.

Joe Rogan 25:09 "I want to feel something."

Justin Gaethje 25:10 He goes, "I just lost my last two fights." That's when he was fighting, uh, uh, Vik.

Joe Rogan 25:13 Vik, yeah.

Justin Gaethje 25:14 And he's like, "I'm so nervous because I'm not nervous. I should be." I was like, "This is big, dude."

Joe Rogan 25:17 I was like, "This is big, dude. I need to get ... I was like, "I need to be on point." I was like, "I don't understand why I'm not feeling anything." Yeah, that was in ... The, The Vik fight was very interesting because that was one of the first, uh, uh, little times we got to see real animosity from you too. You were, you were genuinely pissed off at him. I could tell. He was talking a lot of shit-

Justin Gaethje 25:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:33 ... about how, you know, you're a human punching bag, and he was gonna knock you out. And you could see, like, you were, you were, like, genuinely angry at him.

Justin Gaethje 25:40 I was backed into a corner. Um-

Joe Rogan 25:41 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 25:42 I'm human, man. I had to fight back. So, uh, yeah. I was, uh, defending myself mostly, but I was in such a tough spot coming off too lost, you know?

Joe Rogan 25:52 Right.

Justin Gaethje 25:52 I knew what I had. I knew I had the skills, you know. I knew ... And it was just-

Joe Rogan 25:56 Well, both of those fights were very close fights too.

Justin Gaethje 25:59 The fight with me-

Joe Rogan 25:59 You both ... Very similar.

Justin Gaethje 26:00 Very similar.

Joe Rogan 26:00 In both of your super fights.

Justin Gaethje 26:01 Eddie Alvarez won five of the ... Mike-

Joe Rogan 26:02 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 26:02 So, Michael Johnson, Eddie Alvarez, Dustin Poirier, my first three fights in the UFC, 2017, 2018, they were voted top three out of five. That's out of 958 fights. That's what I did, and I only got paid half for those two fights. That's, that's what hurt me the most. But then, those-

Joe Rogan 26:18 But they were both real similar too in the fact that you almost stopped both those guys with leg kicks.

Justin Gaethje 26:22 Very similar. And they're, they're ... They were similar in the fact how I lost.

Joe Rogan 26:25 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 26:25 I came, I became complacent.

Joe Rogan 26:26 Right.

Justin Gaethje 26:26 I was having too much fun. I forgot that I was fighting the best of the best. And, um, I was ... I love it too much, you know. And not having the crowd there, I think ... So, I don't ... I think it helped me so much, and I think it's gonna car- Whether there's crowd or no crowd in the future, I think it's going to benefit me so much, because I was able to understand that the crowd does influence my emotions. And, um-

Joe Rogan 26:49 Hmm.

Justin Gaethje 26:49 I ... My only rule is never allow someone or something to affect or control your emotions, and I wasn't, I wasn't aware that the crowd was having that effect on my emotions, and the fact that I would have engaged more. I would have taken more chances in that fight with Tony. Um, and I didn't do that because I think I was able to be in control of my emotions for the whole time, for every second.

Joe Rogan 27:10 That's interesting because that fight was so wild. If there was a crowd there for that fight, holy shit. That was a-

Justin Gaethje 27:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:16 It would-

Justin Gaethje 27:16 I would have engaged.

Joe Rogan 27:17 It would have been a crazy crowd. I mean, if that was T-Mobile Arena, holy shit. I mean, that would have been madness.

Justin Gaethje 27:22 Totally.

Joe Rogan 27:22 That fight would have been so crazy.

Justin Gaethje 27:24 I would have ... I would have ... It would have been crazy, but it was super unique to be able to be a part of something like that-

Joe Rogan 27:29 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 27:29 ... with no crowd, so it was like, it was super cool. Like, he's going on and saying that he would have. I don't know if he would have, because if you look at the three fights prior to that, there's a huge difference in your, in your range and your balanced shoulders. Like, he's, he's out ranged. He ... You out ranged Vik. You out ... You, you, you still pressure, but he's got balanced shoulders now. He used to be front heavy and that was a pressure fighter. He was ... Weight was on the front leg and he was pointed with the head. Now, he's level shoulder where his range is just crazy. Like, with Tony, Tony was like, he couldn't find you with your range-

Joe Rogan 27:58 Right.

Justin Gaethje 27:59 ... and your speed and your balance, and, uh, that-

Joe Rogan 28:00 Which is footwork.

Justin Gaethje 28:02 ... straight-up strength. Totally. And Tony's ... Tony will push you back, hit you with combos all the way back to the cage. Ours was dominate the center, uh, of the cage and use your footwork. Like, keep him off balance, and-

Joe Rogan 28:12 No-

Justin Gaethje 28:12 That's what he's done well in his last four fights.

Joe Rogan 28:15 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 28:15 And we shifted game plans completely when I had the conversation with him, because he was like ... 'Cause at the ... After the first loss, it wasn't much change that, that he wanted. He still wanted to fight that way. After the second one, he's like, "I need to change something." I'm like, "What, what's your purpose? You were the most exciting fighter and what do you want to be?" And he's like, "I want to be the champion." I was like, "Then you have to be intelligent. You have to be intelligent. To be the best fighter in the world, you've got to be the best defensive fighter."

Joe Rogan 28:37 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 28:37 Don't change who you are, naturally, but you have to understand defense, and defense starts with position.

Joe Rogan 28:42 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 28:42 Always starts with position. You have to know position. You have to win every position.

Joe Rogan 28:46 Well, you, you came into a real crossroads, right? Because you were this incredibly exciting contender, you come into the UFC, giant prospect, everybody's excited. You have this fucking chaotic war that reaffirms everybody's hopes and aspirations. Like, "This is what we were hoping. Justin Gaethje's gonna come to the UFC. Holy shit. There's gonna be wild, man. This motherfucker doesn't care. He, he throws down." You throw down with Michael Johnson, like, "Ah," and then you have those two losses in a row and people think, "Okay, is he in over his head? Is that s- Does that style only work on the lower level guys?" And you get to championship caliber guys, like ... But, you know, Dustin's never held the title, but he's a championship caliber guy.

Justin Gaethje 29:22 Yep.

Joe Rogan 29:23 And, and so is Eddie Alvarez. He's a championship caliber guy. He won the title. So, you're looking at those two guys like maybe when you get to that point, maybe, maybe he's not ready for this or maybe he doesn't have the style, so then you make this adjustment. So, tell me what that was like. You make ... You sit back. You guys have this conversation. You say you want to be a world champion, and then what, what changed in your head?

Justin Gaethje 29:45 So, it's ... He can tell it so much better than me 'cause for me, it's ... It's ... I can't explain it because for ... It's never been anything. Um, it's just do what I'm told to do-

Joe Rogan 29:58 Mm-hmm.

Justin Gaethje 29:59 ... when I show up and work my hardest. Like, that's all it is every day for me. I didn't, I didn't make a decision. I think it was a choice, obviously. You know, I-

Joe Rogan 30:05 But you said you wanted to be a champion now. Instead of being the most exciting fighter, you wanted to be a champion.

Justin Gaethje 30:10 Yes. Yes. Well, it was that-

Joe Rogan 30:11 So, what was that shift?

Justin Gaethje 30:12 That was ... So, I mean, I ... So, I always wanted to be a champion. I thought I could be a champion. I was undefeated.

Joe Rogan 30:18 Right.

Justin Gaethje 30:19 I thought I could be a champion w- with the style that I was fighting because I was not losing. I had seven amateur fights, 18 professional fights, 25 fights in a row. I had no idea-

Joe Rogan 30:30 When-

Justin Gaethje 30:30 ... that, uh, that I needed to change, that ...I was just going in there and I was breaking people. I was like, "I can't, I can't not break anybody. I'm gonna go in there and break everybody," 'cause everybody's breaking, you know, just for some reason.

Trevor Wittman 30:41 Mm-hmm.

Justin Gaethje 30:41 Um, and then when I lost to Eddie and Dustin, or (laughs) Eddie and, yeah, Eddie and Dustin, it was the s- I, I watched them many times, and then I understood that it was the same mistake, you know. Um, you can't get hit. I was winning. I thought I was winning those fights. Judge's scorecards maybe don't resemble that, but I thought I was winning those fights. Um, the night after I fought Dustin Poirier, I went out and took 200 pictures with all my fans at the bar. Um, he was, you know, in the hospital probably, or guarantee he wasn't on his feet because he didn't walk for a month. Um, so I just understood that no matter how bad you cause damage, if they don't go down and they land that shot, then, you know, it, it all goes away. And I got paid half of my money. I didn't understand. I had never got paid half of my money, ever.

Trevor Wittman 31:30 Oh, you didn't-

Justin Gaethje 31:31 I had never-

Trevor Wittman 31:31 Did you know?

Justin Gaethje 31:32 I knew.

Trevor Wittman 31:32 Or did you not think about it?

Justin Gaethje 31:33 I knew, but I never thought about that shit 'cause-

Trevor Wittman 31:35 I don't like that.

Justin Gaethje 31:36 No. No, it's tough.

Trevor Wittman 31:37 It's, it's tough.

Justin Gaethje 31:37 For people like me, I, I don't st-

Trevor Wittman 31:39 It's-

Justin Gaethje 31:39 I wouldn't argue for the whole roster, and there's very few like me, so. But I'm gonna go to war for myself when it comes to that 'cause I deserve it.

Trevor Wittman 31:46 You're gonna fight your hardest no matter what you're saying.

Justin Gaethje 31:48 I don't-

Trevor Wittman 31:48 And you don't need that bonus, the win bonus, to motivate.

Justin Gaethje 31:51 Yeah, you're not gonna incentivize me to win-

Trevor Wittman 31:52 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 31:52 ... to save my, to, to save my own life.

Trevor Wittman 31:54 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 31:54 Like, what the hell do I need that for?

Trevor Wittman 31:55 I just, I don't like it. I don't like it for the athlete, and I think there's oftentimes where, you know, you would say, "Oh, it forces guys to try to keep it out of the hands of the judges." Well, that's crazy.

Justin Gaethje 32:05 It's stupid. It's gonna hurt.

Trevor Wittman 32:06 You c- you can't, you can't dec- you can't decide that.

Justin Gaethje 32:08 No.

Trevor Wittman 32:08 "I'm gonna keep it..." Uh, that, that one statement, "Don't put it, leave it in the hands of the judges," that one statement drives me fucking crazy 'cause that's not how to fight.

Justin Gaethje 32:15 That drives me the m- that's the, the one statement that drives me the most crazy.

Trevor Wittman 32:19 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 32:19 My mom said it once, like, uh, probably four years. I was like, "Mom, don't you ever say that again."

Trevor Wittman 32:23 (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 32:23 I was like, "Don't you ever say." And I told her why. I was like, "These guys are trying their hardest." You think they're, they're in their minds like, "Oh, let's leave it to the judges. Let's leave it to the judges." Like, no. They're just fighting for their life-

Trevor Wittman 32:32 Right. Exactly.

Justin Gaethje 32:33 ... you know? And just, you know, chance didn't fall in their favor when it comes to a knockout. Whatever you wanna, however you wanna put it.

Trevor Wittman 32:40 Yeah, I mean, take away all the criticisms-

Justin Gaethje 32:41 But, man.

Trevor Wittman 32:41 ... that we all have for judging, and just the, the idea that somehow or another you can make this decision to go knock this guy out, who's a world-class fighter, who's trying to knock you out. That's a great way to get knocked out. And when, when you're, when you're fighting, you have to fight correctly. And I think me watching as an observer, what, what shifted with you is you just seem to be more calculated in your aggression. The, all the aggression is still there. Spots.

Justin Gaethje 33:05 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 33:05 Spots.

Justin Gaethje 33:05 The Vic fight.

Trevor Wittman 33:06 Just spots.

Justin Gaethje 33:06 The Barboza-

Trevor Wittman 33:07 He fights in spots.

Justin Gaethje 33:08 Barboza fight, dude, you got right on top of that motherfucker, and he's one of the scariest strikers in the division.

Trevor Wittman 33:12 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 33:13 You got right on top of him. That was a super impressive knockout because you, you just me- you figured the distance out perfectly, but you put a tremendous arou- amount of pressure on him. But your distance was excellent, like, to avoid. You were avoiding, but yet you were still there when you wanted to hit him. Yeah, it's crazy. Um, just b- yeah, thinking. Um, going in there with the, you know, to be methodical. I'd never had a method. There was never, there was... My only method was create car crashes.

Trevor Wittman 33:44 (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 33:44 Create a car crash. Be the, be the, you know, physics. Both have the same, same weight.

Trevor Wittman 33:51 Right.

Justin Gaethje 33:51 You know, same force. Create, if I can create more force and be there first, then I'm gonna win this car crash. Um, that's usually how it works.

Trevor Wittman 33:59 And the issue was when you're fighting in a hi- high heart rate, you get your, like, lazy spots where you start to w- get on your heels-

Justin Gaethje 34:06 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 34:06 ... a little bit, and you lose your accuracy. You lose your sharpness. You lose your, your, your power. Uh, you're maxed out in your heart rate, and that's why his finishes, I feel like you're, you're way sharper now, and you still fight-

Justin Gaethje 34:18 Mmm.

Trevor Wittman 34:18 ... like, you're always gonna fight the way you do. It's in you. You love to fight. But in spots is key.

Justin Gaethje 34:23 It's so key.

Trevor Wittman 34:24 And you're still walking them down. You're still pressuring them. You're still being able to do those things. We didn't change much outside of now he fights in spots.

Justin Gaethje 34:31 Yeah, so, but-

Trevor Wittman 34:31 It's an amazing adjustment.

Justin Gaethje 34:32 ... do we, do we, what did I say specific, like, I never specifically went to you and was like, "I wanna"-

Trevor Wittman 34:35 No, you said you wanted to be a champion, and I was like, uh, "We gotta get a lot more technical."

Justin Gaethje 34:38 Yeah, that's it.

Trevor Wittman 34:38 And, uh-

Justin Gaethje 34:38 That's all I ever said. It was, other than that, I never-

Trevor Wittman 34:40 And we talked about spots.

Justin Gaethje 34:41 ... we never-

Trevor Wittman 34:41 T- w- c- we said you-

Justin Gaethje 34:42 He, he-

Trevor Wittman 34:42 ... gotta fight more in spots, so it was really, uh, also too when, when I'm watching him spar, I watch every session, and, and I tell him, you know, "You're going too hard, and you need to pull back. This won't go out, and you're on- only able to use your lead hand. So now you can't throw power, you can only control someone." And he'll still walk people down, but it takes away him throwing so many combinations or hucking four at a time, you know?

Justin Gaethje 35:03 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Wittman 35:03 And, and, and he's able to create these patterns that's better. You're controlling range. You're controlling position and then waiting for mistakes. The, the best fighters in the world can always match a good match. But it's the first one that makes a mistake is the one who loses.

Justin Gaethje 35:18 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Wittman 35:18 That's where it... And momentum is so important in sports. Momentum is everything. That snowball, once it starts to build, it's so hard to recover and turn that around in high competition. It's a mental thing. But when you can control things and control and control and then find one mistake, and then you build on that mistake, you're like a wave. You slowly get a little bigger, and you slowly get a little bigger. Now you start to capitalize because once they make a mistake, that pattern's starting to create, and then once you got someone making mistake after mistake after mistake, that's when you crumble on them. And I feel like that's what he'd done really well the three fights prior to that. He was just a capitali- able to capitalize on the big mistake. But credit to Tony. Tony is one of the most gangster dudes in this sport, and for him to go through the damage that he did and continue to walk forward is something unique. Incredible.

Justin Gaethje 36:03 It is one of the coolest things to experience, uh, uh, as a coach to sit there and watch his mental not change. Even when he... 'Cause I was calling for the ref to stop the fight at, uh, about halfway through the fifth round, and when he got hit with that last jab and shook his head, I don't think it was, uh, uh, a point like, "Oh, I don't wanna go on no more." I don't know if it was the orbital 'cause I know he had an orbital issue, but there was something going on where his body is telling him not to do it, but his mental's like, "No, don't stop. Keep going."

Trevor Wittman 36:31 (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 36:31 "'Cause he's still kicking and punching." Even with the big old gash on his, his shin from the check, he was still kicking. Like, that is-

Trevor Wittman 36:37 He never flinched. He never flinched.

Justin Gaethje 36:38 He was just, he was just-

Trevor Wittman 36:39 He was getting cracked, and-

Justin Gaethje 36:40 He'd get knocked backwards.

Trevor Wittman 36:41 Yeah, yeah.

Justin Gaethje 36:41 And then he would go from backwards right back to forward. It's like-

Trevor Wittman 36:44 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 36:44 It was, it was super unique to watch, but...

Trevor Wittman 36:47 ... again, it was, it was great to see someone who can listen and understand, uh, that if you stay in control of yourself, that's the key to everything in this world. You, if you listen to anything else, uh, on the outside and you start to adapt to th- other things, you're never gonna live the way you wanna live. And to be a fighter, you have to be in control of yourself all the time.

Justin Gaethje 37:07 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Wittman 37:08 Uh, I always say the best fighters are the best actors. The ones that can trick their self, fake it till you make it, till you get to the championship. And you have to live that way. You have to obsess never being broken. And even if you break, accept it and then onto the next. Don't deal with it. "Oh, man, I had such a bad day." That's one of my biggest pet peeves that I hate, is hearing someone, "Oh, man. Today was a shitty day." And I was like, "Yeah, there's gonna be many more shitty days, but accept it."

Justin Gaethje 37:31 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 37:32 You know? Love it.

Justin Gaethje 37:32 Does you zero good-

Trevor Wittman 37:34 It's a-

Justin Gaethje 37:34 ... to sit around and talk about shitty days.

Trevor Wittman 37:36 Totally. And, and I had fighters say, "Man, you, you're always saying just positive shit. You're always just like..." And I'm like, "Hell yeah, you gotta love every part of it." Like, I'm gonna say beautiful at any point. When I see you get hurt to the body, I'ma crack up. He got kicked in the cup. He had a big old cup-

Justin Gaethje 37:48 (laughs)

Trevor Wittman 37:48 ... uh, the last fight. He got kicked in the cup. He turned sideways, did the move we were talking about we call it moonwalk where we, where we turn lateral. You don't get the f- uh, the squareness from the front kick. He did it perfect and he stepped back and, and, aimed at his cup. And I'm like, "How'd you get hit in your cup?" He had a Georges St-Pierre cup on.

Justin Gaethje 38:01 (laughs)

Trevor Wittman 38:02 With the cu- with the cu- the cup too, too big for the tights.

Justin Gaethje 38:04 The tight, just too tight.

Trevor Wittman 38:05 And I laughed and I was like, "Dude, he hit you in the cup." But I was just having of the fun.

Justin Gaethje 38:09 The tight, just too tight.

Trevor Wittman 38:09 You know? It's, uh, uh-

Justin Gaethje 38:10 What kind of cup do you use? Dude.

Trevor Wittman 38:12 He forgot his cup.

Justin Gaethje 38:13 How many-

Trevor Wittman 38:13 He's got his cup in his mouthpiece from his last fight.

Justin Gaethje 38:15 I do, but, yeah, so the UFC always has one. I just grab one for them. What? (laughs) The UFC has a cup just laying around?

Trevor Wittman 38:21 It's a ...

Justin Gaethje 38:21 They got, no, no, it's ... They're new cups. They got ... I'm not the only one that forgets their cup. Oh, okay. So what do they ... They give you just like a regular athletic supporter? This one was actually a really nice cup. Oh, it is? Uh, just, just, just a cup and I stick it in my underwear that has a little pocket for the cup. Jesus Christ.

Trevor Wittman 38:35 He train, he trains with no cup. A- there's so many people-

Justin Gaethje 38:38 What?

Trevor Wittman 38:38 ... but ... There's, there's so many people-

Justin Gaethje 38:38 I've never sparred with a cup on. What? I mean what-

Trevor Wittman 38:39 ... that don't train with, through with cups.

Justin Gaethje 38:41 D- j- y- you know the guys lose balls. Do any touch you on the body?

Trevor Wittman 38:43 So, so Duane Ludwig, d- (knocking)

Justin Gaethje 38:45 Right? Jesus.

Trevor Wittman 38:46 (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 38:46 Guys lose balls. You know guys lose balls. Duane Ludwig had to get carried out, put in the back seat and- Oh, fuck.

Trevor Wittman 38:51 ... and went in, went in for some type of surgery and I wasn't there for that one.

Justin Gaethje 38:55 Ball surgery?

Trevor Wittman 38:56 Dude, he got kicked in the ball.

Justin Gaethje 38:57 Oh.

Trevor Wittman 38:57 And the dude that kicked him in the ball had to accept a fight for him and take the fight that he was training for. But every time he takes a ball shot, I don't let him stop. I'm like, "Get up. Wear a cup." And I, and I, I-

Justin Gaethje 39:06 Why would you not wear a cup? That sounds so crazy. Why- You never got hit in the balls?

Trevor Wittman 39:10 Yeah, but c-

Justin Gaethje 39:10 You don't wear a cup in wrestling?

Trevor Wittman 39:12 (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 39:12 You never wore a cup in wrestling?

Trevor Wittman 39:14 And this isn't a ... Wrestling, but this isn't wrestling.

Justin Gaethje 39:15 Cups, cups are for life and death situations. What?

Trevor Wittman 39:19 Sparring is not that.

Justin Gaethje 39:20 Yeah, but you could get kicked in the balls and lose a ball.

Trevor Wittman 39:23 We've had this conversation many times.

Justin Gaethje 39:24 But they don't touch my body. I offer ... Every time I step into sparring-

Trevor Wittman 39:27 What I was saying is-

Justin Gaethje 39:27 ... I announce 90% of the time, I got $500 for anybody that can drop me with a body shot.

Trevor Wittman 39:33 Drop you with a body shot?

Justin Gaethje 39:33 They ain't touching my body. What about ... You got kicked in the balls in your fight with Tony. That was a front kick, like a upkick, and it wouldn't have hit my balls if my cup wasn't so big.

Trevor Wittman 39:41 That's true.

Justin Gaethje 39:42 (laughs)

Trevor Wittman 39:42 That, that is true.

Justin Gaethje 39:44 Hey. Hey.

Trevor Wittman 39:45 Honestly, d- cups do, like especially in boxing, because I, I never did mixed martial arts. I did boxing. And boxing cups are the worst. They're those, those no foul-

Justin Gaethje 39:52 Those big ass things.

Trevor Wittman 39:53 ... protectors.

Justin Gaethje 39:53 Oh, fuck yeah.

Trevor Wittman 39:53 Dude, they don't even ... There's ... It, it just sits in the front of you. So-

Justin Gaethje 39:55 Right.

Trevor Wittman 39:55 ... you take shots up here and, and it smashes you. It's like-

Justin Gaethje 39:58 Right.

Trevor Wittman 39:58 ... the worst, like, but-

Justin Gaethje 40:00 Have you ever used one of those Diamond MMA cups? The where it's ... You know, the compression shorts?

Trevor Wittman 40:02 No, I see people kick it ... Yeah, I see people getting kicked with them.

Justin Gaethje 40:04 I do need a cup though.

Trevor Wittman 40:05 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 40:05 Dude, I have some of those laying around. I'll give you one.

Trevor Wittman 40:08 All right.

Justin Gaethje 40:08 Diamond sent me a, a g- gang of them. I fucking love th- I wear them from jujitsu. They, they, they sit in-

Trevor Wittman 40:12 Oh, man.

Justin Gaethje 40:13 ... compression shorts and they're tight, but-

Trevor Wittman 40:14 That would probably help though.

Justin Gaethje 40:15 It would helps.

Trevor Wittman 40:16 My nuts get smashed all the time in jujitsu.

Justin Gaethje 40:18 Jesus Christ, dude.

Trevor Wittman 40:18 All I got is hips. Wear a goddamn cup. But, uh, uh, some ... Are they allowed to wear tie cups, steel tie cups? Uh, yes, yes they, they are. I actually seen-

Justin Gaethje 40:26 That's-

Trevor Wittman 40:26 ... I actually seen in-

Justin Gaethje 40:27 ... so crazy.

Trevor Wittman 40:27 ... in, in, in one of the fights because I didn't know if they were able to because they're steel.

Justin Gaethje 40:30 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 40:30 But I seen the string coming out. I had to tie up James McSweeney's cup one time and I'm like, "Bro, how are you wearing that like that?" He had the string going up his ass so bad-

Justin Gaethje 40:39 (laughs)

Trevor Wittman 40:39 ... like a thong, so tight. And he's like, "Tighter, coach. Tighter." And I'm sitting there and I'm yanking on this thing and I'm like, "Dude, how are you gonna fight like that?"

Justin Gaethje 40:46 Ugh.

Trevor Wittman 40:46 But it ain't gonna move. You never-

Justin Gaethje 40:47 It ain't gonna move and if someone kicks you-

Trevor Wittman 40:49 Oh.

Justin Gaethje 40:49 ... it fucking hurts them.

Trevor Wittman 40:51 I could not imagine.

Justin Gaethje 40:51 Kenny Florin used to fight-

Trevor Wittman 40:52 Steel.

Justin Gaethje 40:52 ... with a Thai steel cup.

Trevor Wittman 40:54 Totally.

Justin Gaethje 40:54 Yeah. Listen, man. The Thais know how to do it. I mean, nobody gets kicked in the nuts more than them. Right?

Trevor Wittman 40:59 (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 40:59 I mean, they're just throwing leg kicks all the time.

Trevor Wittman 41:01 Yep.

Justin Gaethje 41:01 Th- they slam shins into ball sacks-

Trevor Wittman 41:03 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 41:03 ... all day long.

Trevor Wittman 41:04 (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 41:05 And they figured out a way to make that something that you don't want to do.

Trevor Wittman 41:08 Completely.

Justin Gaethje 41:09 But it's also a giant lever for, for, uh, arm bars.

Trevor Wittman 41:12 There you go. They ... I've heard, heard about that-

Justin Gaethje 41:13 It's crazy.

Trevor Wittman 41:13 ... when you're grappling, you can really feel it. And yeah.

Justin Gaethje 41:16 Oh my God. It's, it's illegal in a lot of Brazilian jujitsu tournaments for that reason.

Trevor Wittman 41:19 Now you can pull through hooks and dig it into their back-

Justin Gaethje 41:20 Yeah. ... dig it into their spine. Or mount- Big Marc Warde used to do that shit to me.

Trevor Wittman 41:23 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 41:23 I'd be like, "Dude, you son of a bitch."

Trevor Wittman 41:24 Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had, we had a guy in our gym that wore one and he, he mounted me and stuck it in my sternum. I'm like-

Justin Gaethje 41:29 Oh, you son of a bitch.

Trevor Wittman 41:29 ... "What the fuck, man?"

Justin Gaethje 41:31 (laughs)

Trevor Wittman 41:31 So where's pain? It's like a, like he's got a, a giant rock-

Justin Gaethje 41:34 (laughs)

Trevor Wittman 41:35 ... and he's just shoving it into your, your sternum. But, uh, so when you're, uh, when you're sparring, you don't ever feel vulnerable that your balls are just kinda like j- jiggling around there?

Justin Gaethje 41:46 I mean, I wear some tight boxer briefs so they're not h- they're not hanging out.

Trevor Wittman 41:49 That's ... And you're, you're, you're like, "All right, whatever. Let him do it."

Justin Gaethje 41:52 (laughs)

Trevor Wittman 41:52 Hey, hey, so, so again, I, I-

Justin Gaethje 41:53 He loses a ball.

Trevor Wittman 41:54 I swear...

Justin Gaethje 41:54 It's a real problem.

Trevor Wittman 41:55 That, that's his outside issue. What ... I work for the athlete. That's one thing that is super unique for me, that I am wa- ... I'm not gonna be your father.

Justin Gaethje 42:02 Right.

Trevor Wittman 42:02 Like, I'm gonna train you, I'm gonna give you everything I got, but this is your life. I will s- save it in many ways I can, but if you're not gonna train for it, I'm not gonna just sit there and annoy you for it. When it comes to-

Justin Gaethje 42:12 That ... That is the biggest do, I told you so ever when you lose a ball. I d- I used to be ... When I, when I was a catcher I didn't wear a cup.

Trevor Wittman 42:17 Oh, Jesus Christ. (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 42:18 (laughs)

Trevor Wittman 42:18 It's crazy, right?

Justin Gaethje 42:19 Uh, uh ...

Trevor Wittman 42:21 You gotta protect yourself.

Justin Gaethje 42:22 You ever see that video where, uh-

Trevor Wittman 42:23 You got two hands.

Justin Gaethje 42:24 Who is it? Dwight Gooden throws that ball and the bird explodes?

Trevor Wittman 42:27 Oh, no. That was Randy Johnson. That was Randy Johnson.

Justin Gaethje 42:31 Oh my God.

Trevor Wittman 42:31 That's right.

Justin Gaethje 42:31 Randy Johnson. I would wear a cup if I was catching for real.

Trevor Wittman 42:32 Randy Johnson with his long old, uh, uh, mullet.

Justin Gaethje 42:34 Yeah. Have you seen it?

Trevor Wittman 42:34 He'd turn his leg all the way up. Yeah, the big tall dude.

Justin Gaethje 42:37 Oh, yeah.

Trevor Wittman 42:37 Yeah. Have you seen the, the ball-

Justin Gaethje 42:38 I haven't seen that one, no.

Trevor Wittman 42:38 You seen the bird exploding? It's kind of hilarious.

Justin Gaethje 42:39 No. Pitched it to the Diamondbacks.

Trevor Wittman 42:41 So he's, he throws-

Justin Gaethje 42:42 Smoked it.

Trevor Wittman 42:42 ... his ball and this bird flies right into the line of fire and explodes, explodes in a burst-

Justin Gaethje 42:47 Really?

Trevor Wittman 42:47 ... of feathers. Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 42:48 Oh.

Trevor Wittman 42:48 I remember him pitching. He was like the fastest pitcher at the time. Right?

Justin Gaethje 42:51 Yeah. Middle of the game. Middle of the game. Middle of the game. So the bird's flying ... I mean, it's ... The ... Here it goes. Look at this. Oh, sorry. Look over here.

Trevor Wittman 42:57 Oh.

Justin Gaethje 42:58 Look at this.

42:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:59 So he throws it, and just perfect timing, doosh.

Justin Gaethje 43:03 No-

Joe Rogan 43:04 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 43:04 ... way.

Joe Rogan 43:05 Yeah. It just randomly explodes.

Justin Gaethje 43:08 So is that... That's the bird flopping off over in-

Joe Rogan 43:10 Yes.

Trevor Wittman 43:10 I think it just de-

Justin Gaethje 43:10 Here he goes, yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:11 Yes, doosh.

Trevor Wittman 43:11 It defeathered it.

Justin Gaethje 43:12 It defeathered every feather.

Joe Rogan 43:13 I mean-

Trevor Wittman 43:14 It ended.

Joe Rogan 43:14 He cleaned it.

Justin Gaethje 43:15 So you could cook that like that?

Joe Rogan 43:16 Yeah, you could cook it. Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 43:17 Right there? It defeathered.

Trevor Wittman 43:18 Basically. (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 43:19 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:19 You could end that fucking bird's...

Trevor Wittman 43:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:22 He, he basically-

Justin Gaethje 43:23 Shit.

Joe Rogan 43:23 ... stopped it in its tracks perfectly. It was like the perfect collision.

Trevor Wittman 43:28 Nice.

Joe Rogan 43:28 I mean, so what are the odds of that happening?

Justin Gaethje 43:30 Unbelievable.

Trevor Wittman 43:30 That'd be really effective in golf.

Justin Gaethje 43:31 Absolutely, it'd blow.

Trevor Wittman 43:32 Get a birdie.

Joe Rogan 43:32 Oh, yeah.

Trevor Wittman 43:34 I'm sorry.

Justin Gaethje 43:34 (laughs)

Trevor Wittman 43:34 That's low level joke.

Joe Rogan 43:35 Sorry. Think about your balls, please. I'll get you one of them Diamond MMA cups. Think about your balls.

Justin Gaethje 43:39 If it's cups, well, I'll wear it.

Joe Rogan 43:40 Okay. Jesus, just... Coach, talk to him.

Trevor Wittman 43:43 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:44 Because there's a point-

Trevor Wittman 43:46 He's-

Joe Rogan 43:46 ... zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, nine-

Trevor Wittman 43:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:49 ... percent chance Randy Johnson would hit a bird on any giv- with any given pitch.

Trevor Wittman 43:53 Oh my God.

Justin Gaethje 43:54 (laughs) How do they come up with that number?

Joe Rogan 43:56 Mathematicians, man.

Trevor Wittman 43:57 Oh, yeah. Yeah. So you-

Justin Gaethje 43:58 No way.

Trevor Wittman 43:58 So how many pitches-

Joe Rogan 43:59 They're born.

Trevor Wittman 44:00 ... has been thrown?

Joe Rogan 44:00 Oh, yeah.

Trevor Wittman 44:01 And, and-

Justin Gaethje 44:01 Yeah, there's only been one out of that.

Trevor Wittman 44:02 There's only one time.

Joe Rogan 44:02 That's what I mean. How many birds are on the planet?

Trevor Wittman 44:04 So then, how many birds are on the planet-

Justin Gaethje 44:04 (laughs)

Trevor Wittman 44:04 ... that's probably what made that. And then as they continue to go on, that's gonna change.

Joe Rogan 44:08 'Cause here's the thing.

Trevor Wittman 44:08 Until they hit a second bird.

Joe Rogan 44:09 "Never once had a bird been hit with a pitch in the history of baseball before that-"

Justin Gaethje 44:11 There you go.

Joe Rogan 44:12 "... faithful day with Randy Johnson. That said, each game, team throws around 150 pitches. Multiply that by 200,000, you get 30 million."

Trevor Wittman 44:20 It's gonna change every year for many years.

Joe Rogan 44:21 "So, the answer is roughly somewhere in the ballpark of one in 30 million."

Trevor Wittman 44:25 Per year?

Joe Rogan 44:25 Wow.

Justin Gaethje 44:25 Per, per season.

Joe Rogan 44:27 Yeah, per season I guess, huh?

Trevor Wittman 44:29 (blows raspberry)

Joe Rogan 44:30 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 44:30 (blows raspberry)

Trevor Wittman 44:31 (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 44:32 It's only happened once ever.

Trevor Wittman 44:33 If you were not at... Playing Major League and someone did that, no one's gonna believe that story.

Joe Rogan 44:37 No one would believe that, ever.

Justin Gaethje 44:38 Never.

Trevor Wittman 44:38 Yeah, you'd be like, "What? Yeah, my buddy threw the ball."

Joe Rogan 44:41 (laughs)

Trevor Wittman 44:41 "And right when he threw the ball, the bird just was perfectly lined up." Like, your buddy's an asshole and he threw a ball at a bird. Tell the truth.

Justin Gaethje 44:47 Took every feather off, look at that.

Joe Rogan 44:49 (laughs)

Trevor Wittman 44:50 So-

Justin Gaethje 44:50 It's funny. (laughs) Oh my gosh.

Joe Rogan 44:51 Think about your nuts, please. Don't worry.

Justin Gaethje 44:53 I got you. I got you.

Trevor Wittman 44:53 Okay, thank you.

Justin Gaethje 44:54 Diamond cup.

Joe Rogan 44:54 Yes. Yeah, yeah. Well, I got... I have a bunch of them back there.

Trevor Wittman 44:57 And he'll be the best father. Like, he is so good with kids. You... You need work up, man?

Justin Gaethje 45:03 (laughs)

Trevor Wittman 45:03 Yeah, you wanna-

Justin Gaethje 45:04 I gotta find a girl first.

Trevor Wittman 45:06 Protect your jewels.

Justin Gaethje 45:06 It's the first part of the equation.

Joe Rogan 45:07 Yeah, but don't find a girl right now, 'cause that fucks up more fighters than anything. The wrong girl?

Trevor Wittman 45:12 I won't pick the wrong one.

Joe Rogan 45:13 I'm sure you won't. But sometimes you don't think you're picking the wrong one.

Trevor Wittman 45:16 That's true.

Joe Rogan 45:16 You think you're picking the right one and then, then they fucking take their mask off.

Justin Gaethje 45:19 They're pretty, they're pretty tricky.

Joe Rogan 45:20 Oh, they're so tricky, some of them. Some of them aren't tricky at all.

Trevor Wittman 45:24 Yeah. I, I tell you, I was done. I found my wife in my best friend. Uh, uh, I tell you, she was the key to, I'd say, all my success. She was, uh, someone who supported everything I did, which was so different. And again, having that backbone and having someone to support you is key. You gotta have the people that are there for you. When I have the day where I feel weak and I'm like, "Oh man, I really just don't wanna do this," she's like, "Get up and do this." Like, "You got this." And then there are days where she needed to pull me back a little bit and it's just... Having that balance is key.

Joe Rogan 45:50 Yes.

Trevor Wittman 45:50 But in this industry, when it comes to, to athletes and especially the level that you're at, it is a scary thing. I've seen it change-

Joe Rogan 45:56 We've seen it.

Trevor Wittman 45:56 ... so many people. And it's not just the women, it's outside influences. It's, uh, it's, it's...

Joe Rogan 46:00 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 46:00 This is one thing that I love about this guy, is he is the same dude from day one. And I've had so many athletes just become something different, you know? They get their shell on-

Joe Rogan 46:09 Yes, mm-hmm.

Trevor Wittman 46:10 ... and they just become different. And he's just a grounded dude. I call him a yes man because every person that knows him is like, "Hey, man, come over my house to dinner," and he just can't say no. He's like, "All right, cool, I'll be there. What do you need me to bring you? Things."

Joe Rogan 46:21 That's a good kind of yes man.

Trevor Wittman 46:22 It's great. It's just a great, great thing. Like, he's so good to his family. He's so good to all of his friends. He is, uh, uh, very unique. Very unique. And it's always the nice dudes. Like, you see them from the outside, you look, you think, "Hey, man, meathead," you know. Like, he's one of the most intelligent four people type of fighters. And some of the nicest guys are the ones that perform the best. They're the ones that's gonna help a lady across the street.

Joe Rogan 46:46 Right.

Trevor Wittman 46:46 But they fight for something.

Joe Rogan 46:48 I think there's-

Trevor Wittman 46:48 And for them that's unique.

Joe Rogan 46:49 ... there's something to that because I think guys who don't have the burden of guilt, like, laying on their head that they're an asshole. Like, even if you... Unless you're a sociopath, if you act like a piece of shit, no matter how much you justify it, you're like, "I'm the fucking man, who gives a shit?" In the back of your head you've got to know you're a piece of shit.

Justin Gaethje 47:05 False confidence.

Joe Rogan 47:06 Yes, it's false confidence. Like-

Justin Gaethje 47:08 That's why everyone is so scared to make that walk.

Trevor Wittman 47:10 Or you reword it.

Justin Gaethje 47:11 There's no reason you should be scared. If you've done everything, what are you scared of? You know, it's probably... You probably didn't eat the right things. You probably didn't go to sleep the right time. You probably drank too much alcohol. You did something. And no, you can't lie to yourself.

Joe Rogan 47:22 He's right about-

Trevor Wittman 47:23 And he's right about being an asshole, though.

Justin Gaethje 47:24 That's true. That's part of it as well.

Joe Rogan 47:26 You get that rewording.

Trevor Wittman 47:26 You get every aspect. Every aspect.

Justin Gaethje 47:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:27 They can reword that and be like, "I'm the shit."

Trevor Wittman 47:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:30 The, the piece of the shit, you know. So you reword that.

Justin Gaethje 47:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:32 That's a... It's the psyche, right? "I'm the shit."

Trevor Wittman 47:35 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 47:35 And everybody's like, "No, you're the piece of shit."

Joe Rogan 47:37 I've thought about that with a lot of fighters that they get into trouble. I wonder how much that fucks with them. Like, and also, in today's day and age with social media, if you're an asshole, if you do mean things, people find out about it.

Trevor Wittman 47:50 It doesn't help.

Joe Rogan 47:50 And they're like, "That guy's a piece of shit. Fuck him." You know, and then you, you feel the sting of that.

Trevor Wittman 47:55 Yep.

Joe Rogan 47:56 And then you're getting out there and you're getting booed. And, you know, you see that fuck with guys. It, it makes a big impact.

Trevor Wittman 48:02 Those are the hardest guys to retire, too. Like, once they don't have it no more-

Joe Rogan 48:06 It's a change.

Trevor Wittman 48:07 ... it's, it's a rough thing. That's, that's a hard... Been a hard thing for me as a coach, is, is seeing the end.

Joe Rogan 48:13 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 48:13 And that's why I'm so into, like, like, life coaching, not just coaching. It's coaching them about life. That, "Hey, man, you're the same dude as anybody out here. You're challenging yourself. Yes, you are doing something at a different level and going out there and chasing things. But don't let it change who you are to people." And because you have everything now. You, when you're a champion, you go into any restaurant, they're gonna give you free dinner, feed your family. It doesn't matter who, who's with you. But when you lose, all of a sudden everybody drops their head. They feel bad for you. They're like, "Oh my God, that's the guy that just got knocked out."

Joe Rogan 48:41 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 48:41 And it's very hard to step away from. And you see guys that continue to fight for way too long-

Joe Rogan 48:46 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Wittman 48:47 ... because they need that feeling. They need that, that, that, uh, invincibleness again, that, that, that stardom, that kingdom.

Joe Rogan 48:54 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 48:54 And that's hard for me to watch because it's... That's a challenge. And you see a lot of people go down the wrong end-

Joe Rogan 49:00 It's also their identity.

Trevor Wittman 49:02 ... from that point.

Joe Rogan 49:02 Like, when they're not fighting, they don't know who they are.... because, first of all, fighting is so much more exciting than anything else you're ever gonna do.

Trevor Wittman 49:09 Yep.

Joe Rogan 49:09 So, if you get used to these gigantic highs-

Trevor Wittman 49:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:12 ... and then preparing, and then the nerves of preparing and all the, the anticipation of these big events. Fighters have the riskiest job in the world outside of first responders, soldiers-

Trevor Wittman 49:24 100%.

Joe Rogan 49:24 ... and people along those lines. I mean, you're, you're, you're literally playing a game called I'm trying to throw my bones-

Trevor Wittman 49:30 Yep.

Joe Rogan 49:30 ... and separate you from your consciousness, and you're gonna try to do that to me. And you're, you, you, and it's, and you're doing it publicly in front of everybody.

Trevor Wittman 49:37 Yep.

Joe Rogan 49:37 So, there's emotions, there's physical, the, you know about, everybody knows about the damage that it does to your body. It's so, it's, there's so much riding on it that for fighters, when they leave that and then they go to a regular life, like a lot of times it's very difficult.

Trevor Wittman 49:52 Very difficult.

Joe Rogan 49:52 Very difficult to make that adjustment, and that's why so many of them come back.

Trevor Wittman 49:56 Yep. And that's why it needs to be guided from day one.

Joe Rogan 49:58 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 49:59 And, and again, it's like, you have to have a time. Like, your goal, you have to set goal sets. Uh, we've talked about when, when your time is up and, uh, and how long you're gonna fight for. You have to set those goals. You have to be true to them. That's like the, not taking a late, last minute fight.

Joe Rogan 50:12 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 50:12 You know? That's, you have to have your goals set into place, and once you start to break those rules, you're, you're really not grabbing the wheel.

Joe Rogan 50:18 Right.

Trevor Wittman 50:18 You're, you're letting it coast and then-

Joe Rogan 50:20 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 50:20 ... that's, that's where you start to spiral downhill or go off track. And I think that's super important because you can only do any sport for so long, but all athletes, like even in NFL and things like that, they think they're gonna play forever.

Joe Rogan 50:32 Right.

Trevor Wittman 50:32 They have this mindset that you're gonna play forever, but it's so hard to see what happens to them after the lights go out.

Joe Rogan 50:38 Yeah, very hard. They, they-

Trevor Wittman 50:40 Very hard.

Joe Rogan 50:41 Most athletes, pro athletes wind up going broke.

Trevor Wittman 50:44 Yep.

Joe Rogan 50:44 I mean, it's the vast majority of NFL players are bankrupt within, uh, you know, just a couple of years of retiring. Same thing with NBA players. They-

Trevor Wittman 50:52 Mentally br-

Joe Rogan 50:53 Bankrupt.

Trevor Wittman 50:53 Mentally bankrupt.

Joe Rogan 50:53 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 50:54 Mentally bankrupt.

Joe Rogan 50:54 It takes-

Trevor Wittman 50:55 Where they can't earn, they don't wanna earn.

Joe Rogan 50:57 Right.

Trevor Wittman 50:57 They almost get like, like, uh, self-sabotage.

Joe Rogan 51:00 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Wittman 51:00 Like, again, it's a, you know, "I'm kicking my ass." Like, you know.

Joe Rogan 51:03 Right.

Trevor Wittman 51:03 Where th- th- it's, again, they, they, they start to beat their own self up.

Joe Rogan 51:07 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 51:07 And that's-

Justin Gaethje 51:08 It takes a lot of work to ... I mean, that feeling after, after being in that Octagon and winning is the highest of high. You know, I've never ever experienced anything like it. But I focus, as soon as I leave, I, I really focus on not, on, on bringing myself down and not, not being the, too high for too long because with the highs come the lows. And I don't, I try to, I'm constantly in the middle. Like, it's like-

Joe Rogan 51:34 So, when do you do that? Like, right after the Tony fight? Like, like how long after?

Justin Gaethje 51:37 Like, I walk, like two minutes after I walk, you know, you're going through the whole process, but that whole time through the process it's like you're, you know, for one, you're, you ain't special. You know, you're not special. That was awesome, but back to normal, you know. Now it's, it's immediate. Right?

Joe Rogan 51:52 Immediate.

Justin Gaethje 51:52 Right when the f- right when I was talking to you. I was like, "You know, my finger hurts, but other than that, it's like-"

Joe Rogan 51:58 You seem pretty normal. (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 51:59 Yeah, nothing- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:01 The only thing that wasn't normal is you threw the belt away. You're like, "Get that fucking thing outta here. I want the real one."

Justin Gaethje 52:05 Yeah, I don't know why I did that. I mean-

Trevor Wittman 52:07 (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 52:07 ... that's the competitor in me, you know? Like-

Joe Rogan 52:09 Right, I get it.

Justin Gaethje 52:10 ... it's under. You know, Dustin won one of those and-

Joe Rogan 52:12 Mm-hmm.

Justin Gaethje 52:12 ... you know, as you stated, he was never a champion.

Joe Rogan 52:14 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 52:14 You know, so, but he did win a, he w- he won an interim title.

Joe Rogan 52:17 He had no-

Justin Gaethje 52:17 And so in the future-

Joe Rogan 52:18 ... championship caliber, but, and so was Tony. I mean, Tony was a interim champion as well, but i- interim titles are very weird. It's a weird thing. It's like I-

Justin Gaethje 52:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:27 ... I kinda think they shouldn't exist.

Justin Gaethje 52:28 Yeah, it's like-

Joe Rogan 52:29 Because it's like-

Justin Gaethje 52:29 ... definitely not a real belt.

Joe Rogan 52:30 Right.

Justin Gaethje 52:30 It's more real than the BMF belt, but-

Trevor Wittman 52:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:33 (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 52:34 (laughs)

Trevor Wittman 52:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:35 It's just w- it's just one of those-

Trevor Wittman 52:37 Every time I hear that I think of cowboys, like, ranch.

Joe Rogan 52:40 Yeah, just ranch.

Trevor Wittman 52:40 'Cause you got BMF everywhere over there.

Joe Rogan 52:42 I know.

Trevor Wittman 52:42 And I, I always think of that.

Joe Rogan 52:44 Yeah. I mean, it's called the BMF Ranch.

Trevor Wittman 52:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:46 Yeah. The BMF belt was fun. But it was fun.

Trevor Wittman 52:49 Yeah, it was.

Justin Gaethje 52:50 No, I loved it.

Joe Rogan 52:51 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 52:51 It was fun. It was entertainment. We got a, they, and remember, belts, whether they're interim or not, you, you get pay-per-view by. So, again, there's, there ... we gotta look at the pros and the cons.

Justin Gaethje 52:59 I don't know about that belt.

Trevor Wittman 53:00 It does benefit the athletes.

Justin Gaethje 53:01 Ma- I hope so.

Trevor Wittman 53:01 No.

Justin Gaethje 53:02 But better-

Trevor Wittman 53:02 I'm talking about the interim.

Justin Gaethje 53:03 Better come with a-

Trevor Wittman 53:04 Interim, right?

Justin Gaethje 53:04 No, I'm in.

Trevor Wittman 53:05 Yes.

Joe Rogan 53:05 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 53:05 No, that's why-

Trevor Wittman 53:06 You should.

Justin Gaethje 53:06 ... that was one huge factor for. F- for one, I've ne- I've always said I don't take late, late replacement fights, but I never said I don't take late replacement world title fights. This, this is way different. You know?

Joe Rogan 53:18 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 53:18 Yeah.

Justin Gaethje 53:18 Like, just the implications, uh, it was different.

Joe Rogan 53:21 You had a statement.

Trevor Wittman 53:22 So different.

Joe Rogan 53:22 One of the things you said when you first entered the UFC, you said, "I'm gonna put on some incredible fights, and I'm gonna lose. And I'm probably gonna get knocked out."

Trevor Wittman 53:31 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:31 Nobody says that.

Trevor Wittman 53:32 It's crazy.

Justin Gaethje 53:32 True.

Trevor Wittman 53:33 It's the craziest thing. He says it with such, he'll say it all the time.

Joe Rogan 53:35 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 53:35 I'm like stop saying that shit 'cause if you repeat shit, you're gonna trip yourself.

Justin Gaethje 53:38 (laughs)

Trevor Wittman 53:38 "I'm gonna get knocked out." But he, that's, that's-

Joe Rogan 53:41 (laughs)

Trevor Wittman 53:41 But that's the key to him, like he doesn't hesitate. Like, if I do anything as a coach, I gotta pull him back, and that's a great thing.

Joe Rogan 53:47 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Wittman 53:48 Like, I've been a motivator my whole career. I've, uh, the, the psychology, I'm a great technician, but my psychology is tricking people to win. Is how do you get out there and do it? And, and making them to believe you have to force your head into something to, to make something happen. You have to go out there and, and, and, and fight. And that's hard for a lot of people. This guy is like, "Pulling people back is a great thing." It's like, that's, that's, it's still hard to do at times, like not with him, but do fighters just go too hard to hit rage? And rage is hard to settle down.

Joe Rogan 54:18 Mm.

Trevor Wittman 54:18 When someone hits rage, like if someone says something about your mama, I'm always like, "They don't even know your mama." Like, seriously, stop that shit.

Joe Rogan 54:24 (laughs)

Trevor Wittman 54:24 Like, stop. That, that, well they-

Joe Rogan 54:26 It was a great moment after the second round, after you got hit with that upper cut, where you, you, you came back to the corner and you told him, "Take something off your punches. Take about 10% off. Just hit him with clean shots."

Trevor Wittman 54:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:36 You try- trying to murder him with every shot, and then you made that adjustment.

Trevor Wittman 54:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:40 And that, that's, that was really interesting because a lot of times coaches will tell stuff to fighters, and the fighters probably know somewhere in their head, but it's fucking with them that they're starting to get tired. It's fucking with them that they got hit.

Trevor Wittman 54:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:52 And then they lose some composure.

Trevor Wittman 54:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:53 They get emotional and they go out there and they wind up making mistakes. You immediately adjusted and you went out there, and you would see like by the end of that second round when Tony hit you with that shot, people were like, "Well, maybe this is a shift in the, the direction of the fight."

Trevor Wittman 55:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:06 Nope, the, the shift was the opposite way. You came out in the third round more technical, and you came out and did exactly what Trevor said.

Justin Gaethje 55:15 Yeah, it's, uh, we worked long and hard on, on that. Um-I trust him with, you know, with everything, as he said. You know, we wouldn't be ... He wouldn't be my coach if I didn't trust him with my life and with, with what... Everything I go in there to do. Fuck, what the fuck?

Joe Rogan 55:30 So when he said that to you-

Justin Gaethje 55:31 Response.

Joe Rogan 55:31 ... when he said, "Take 10% off."

Justin Gaethje 55:32 Yeah, so I- I'm trying to... The crazy thing is, is you only see 10% of the interaction between us-

Joe Rogan 55:37 Right.

Justin Gaethje 55:38 ... in between rounds. Um, I'm right now, I'm actually with... Talking to him, to see, trying to get that whole, that whole thing. But, um, yeah, it was, um, it's like I, I got hit hard-

Joe Rogan 55:46 You try... You're talking to the UFC, trying to get what, the recording?

Justin Gaethje 55:48 He's trying to get his-

Joe Rogan 55:49 Oh.

Justin Gaethje 55:49 ... his audio from his mic.

Joe Rogan 55:50 Oh.

Justin Gaethje 55:50 'Cause, um-

Joe Rogan 55:52 You wanna hear it and watch it.

Justin Gaethje 55:53 Yeah, 'cause I don't remember it, you know?

Joe Rogan 55:55 Right, of course.

Justin Gaethje 55:55 It's so fast and... Just like when he came to me in the fifth round, and I was laughing.

Joe Rogan 56:00 Mm-hmm.

Justin Gaethje 56:00 I had just asked... The reason I was laughing is 'cause I had just asked him, I said, "Was that the end of the second or third round?"

Joe Rogan 56:05 (laughs)

Justin Gaethje 56:05 And they're like, "This is the fifth round." I was like, "No fucking way I'm in that good of shape." I was like, "No way." And that's what, that's when they cut in, you know, so you don't see... There's so much you don't see, uh, in that interaction between me and him and-

Joe Rogan 56:16 It's so important for fighters to see that adjustment and how his endurance leveled off. 'Cause it was like you, you were having these wild exchanges-

Justin Gaethje 56:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:26 ... and you were pu- you were fucking hitting Tony. First of all, Tony Ferguson is made out of metal.

Trevor Wittman 56:31 It's, it's crazy.

Justin Gaethje 56:32 I mean, what in the fuck, dude?

Trevor Wittman 56:33 It's crazy. Especially when you're talking about a, a body type, like we were talking earlier about-

Justin Gaethje 56:36 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 56:37 ... someone with a frail body type. He doesn't have a, a chiseled neck or-

Joe Rogan 56:40 Right, he's not built like Mark Hunt.

Trevor Wittman 56:41 He is... It's so unique to me, he's so tough.

Joe Rogan 56:43 He's so fucking tough.

Justin Gaethje 56:44 Like, it makes me wonder. Is it a choice to go to sleep or not, like (overlapping dialogue) : ... really?

Trevor Wittman 56:46 But there's, there's also a-

Joe Rogan 56:48 Right.

Trevor Wittman 56:48 ... a key. Like if, if, if a fighter could take something on understanding coachability, is like you have to have your reactions, but you also have to have your responses. Like, reactive stuff is like, like jabs. Positional stuff is reactive, like you have to be able to react to positions first. I love, uh, jujitsu because it's, uh, it's position before submission.

Joe Rogan 57:05 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Wittman 57:05 You have to react to, to positions before anything else. So there's reactive stuff, but the responses is why you have a copilot, to help you see what you can't see and start noticing that. Or how are you playing defense and using a jab to find openings where you're still working, but you're thinking and going, "Oh, every time he does this, he's dropping his hand." And you're able to see things. That's where you have to be responsive, and you have to be aware in the moment, where a lot of times people can't. They just bite down. They just bite down on that m- mouthpiece-

Joe Rogan 57:33 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Wittman 57:33 ... and very similar to the way you used to fight was bite down, their eyes are getting big. "Oh, that's my response as I continue to do this, and uh, they're gonna fall."

Joe Rogan 57:42 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 57:42 And a- a- again, that is a very important point, is a coach and the athlete understanding, "I am there to help you with your responses. In the gym, I'm gonna create your reactions. I'm gonna create your patterns, your basic fundamental patterns that's gonna help you win positions and slightly win rounds where you're controlling the fight." The other piece is how am I slowly creating momentum to get finishes?

Joe Rogan 58:04 It was pretty stunning how well you, you adapted and then also how your endurance leveled off. Like, 'cause you, you did seem like you were slowing down a little bit at the second round, but it was because you were sprinting, because you were throwing these full power fucking haymakers. But then, when you leveled off in that third round, then it was like you had an endless gas tank. That was interesting.

Trevor Wittman 58:26 You're in control of yourself.

Joe Rogan 58:27 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 58:27 If you're making decisions, it's a lot easier on your psyche.

Joe Rogan 58:29 Yeah.

Trevor Wittman 58:30 When you're trying to just fight out of things all the time, again, you're not in control. If you can't control your thought, you cannot control your breathing.

Joe Rogan 58:37 How stunned were you that Tony could take those shots?

Justin Gaethje 58:41 In the fight, you know, there's, there's no, there's no point where I, where I even understand.

Joe Rogan 58:47 You weren't thinking at all, just throwing them?

Justin Gaethje 58:48 No. You know, it was crazy. The shots I hit, you know, John's or, uh, Vic... Barboza and Cerrone with, I was so surprised they went to sleep. Um, you know, I just, I didn't understand why. I think it was position mostly, but yeah, I was... When I was hitting him with some of those shots, um, especially the one when I came through and he was throwing an uppercut, I couldn't believe he, he didn't go to