JRE MMA Show #96 with Justin Gaethje & Trevor Wittman

1. 0:00 – 1:43

   Trevor Wittman on coaching awards, small rosters, and rebuilding after gym turmoil

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      Boom! Trainer of the year, Trevor Whitman. You might be. You might get it.

   2. TWTrevor Wittman0:05

      We'll see. I mean, I- I- I don't have any-

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      It's ... You definitely-

   4. JGJustin Gaethje0:06

      You definitely have a short list.

   5. TWTrevor Wittman0:08

      I, I got, I got not that many athletes, so that's where ... You know, when I won it two years ago, that was, uh, unique to me, 'cause I went in there like, "Man, I don't deserve this." I, I remember having 40 athletes and the guys who have all these athletes, that's putting in so much time. I had three athletes at the time, so that was cool. But again, I think, uh, performing and doing good as a coach is one thing, but also, you know, putting in that full time. When you're running a gym and having 40 athletes, it's a nonstop, 60 hours. You're not doing anything with your children and-

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:38

      Yeah.

   7. TWTrevor Wittman0:38

      ... that's, that's, uh ... But then when I seen the, the athletes talking on the screen and talking about, you know, Rose talking about changing the world, but just being good people, then I was like, "Oh, yeah." And I remember re- repeating to myself when I went through a tough time and lost all my athletes, we kind of had to split. And it all happened through when Nate Marquardt had that issue with the, the TRT.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:57

      Mm.

   9. TWTrevor Wittman0:58

      And, uh, you know, I had talked about the gray area, you know. If you're gonna allow someone to do that, you have that space. Like, he-

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:05

       Yeah.

   11. TWTrevor Wittman1:05

       ... instantly got shunned for it.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:06

       Right.

   13. TWTrevor Wittman1:06

       And he, he's got children. He had a new kid on the way, and I was just like, "Man, he got shunned." We knew about it prior and I was just like, "They said you could do it, but they don't know how to test the levels." And that situation turned into a bigger situation, and then I ended up starting over with athletes. And I remember repeating to myself, "You're the best coach in the world. No one's better." And I remember just repeating that. I had a new gym that was big, 13,000 square feet. I was paying it by myself.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:31

       Wow.

   15. TWTrevor Wittman1:31

       But I just kept saying it over and over and over, and then when I was sitting there that night, I was looking at, looking at him. And we won like seven awards that night with just the three of us. And I was like, "Man, that's, that's super cool." That's when it kind of hit and I was like, "Oh, man."

2. 1:43 – 2:49

   Why one-on-one coaching matters more than ‘super gyms’

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:43

      There's something to be said for having a small stable of athletes versus like, there's some of these super gyms where a lot of guys wind up complaining. A lot of guys wind up saying they don't get the attention they deserve. They, they feel like they're staggering or they're, they're, they're stagnant there. And it's just, it's not ... I don't think it's the right way.

   2. TWTrevor Wittman2:02

      It's so different.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:03

      When you've got a-

   4. TWTrevor Wittman2:03

      I'll tell you what. Take-

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:05

      I mean-

   6. TWTrevor Wittman2:05

      Takes me back to my boxing days. I only had three or four athletes at the most and I was running with them and, and had them at my house and I was feeding them and they were at my house for camp. And it was one on one for everything. For the psyche. I mean, that's, that's such an important part when it comes to fighting outside of Justin Gaethje. Justin Gaethje, I learned from this guy when it comes to mental. Like, he's just ingrained with like the strongest mental, and I love that part. Like, that's why I love working with Rose, 'cause the mental part. But one on one is key.

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:34

      Mm-hmm.

   8. TWTrevor Wittman2:34

      That is key to being able to, to, to be with your athletes. And I'll tell you, it's like a hobby again. It ain't like a job. It's like passion, you know? And you, you, you never really wanna do it for the money. You need to pay your bills, but the key is, it's the athlete. It's about them.

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:49

      When-

   10. JGJustin Gaethje2:49

       I-

3. 2:49 – 5:50

   Gaethje’s ‘zero striking’ beginnings and the first day at Trevor’s gym

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:49

      Justin, when you came to Trevor, like, how much striking experience did you have?

   2. JGJustin Gaethje2:54

      Zero. Zero.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:54

      That's hilarious.

   4. JGJustin Gaethje2:55

      Yeah, no, I was, uh ... I had five amateur fights. I'd never, never been in a street fight, not a one-on-one street fight, a couple big brawls. Um, never thrown a punch, never been punched, and I got hit hard in my fifth fight, almost got knocked out. I was like, "Man, I need to find ... If I'm gonna do this, I need to find a coach."

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:11

      So you (laughs) so you had five amateur MMA fights with zero striking training?

   6. JGJustin Gaethje3:18

      Zero. I was just, uh-

   7. JRJoe Rogan3:19

      (laughs) Right?

   8. JGJustin Gaethje3:19

      I would just take ... So right after wrestling was over-

   9. JRJoe Rogan3:21

      (laughs)

   10. JGJustin Gaethje3:21

       ... I would just be like, "I wanna fight." And then I was, you know, I was in the best shape of my life after wrestling season.

   11. JRJoe Rogan3:25

       Right.

   12. JGJustin Gaethje3:26

       So yeah, I was a machine still, but I just had no, no skills. It was go out there and wrestle, take them down, slams. I was, uh, you know, I got my nickname, The Highlight, before I ever knew how to strike, and that was from throwing, tossing people.

   13. JRJoe Rogan3:38

       Wow.

   14. TWTrevor Wittman3:38

       I gotta tell you, when he came in my gym, so I met him at one of the fights. And I thought he was a Japanese guy, 'cause I was traveling to Tokyo a lot with Duane. And, uh, his name, Gaethje, for some reason, just I pictured a, a Japanese guy.

   15. JRJoe Rogan3:50

       (laughs) Yeah, he kinda sounds like he could be Japanese.

   16. TWTrevor Wittman3:52

       And I seen him fight and I was like, "Oh my God, it was spectacular." The way he was throwing people and putting them on their head, I was just like amazed. And I talked to him in the locker room. I was like, "Dude, I'm a huge fan. Like, your fighting style is so unique." And then he's like, "I'd love to come to your gym." So he comes down, he comes in and he's like, "I'm here to fight." And I was like, "Cool." And I was like, "All right, well, we're sparring today." Then he's like, "Cool, yeah, yeah, I wanna fight." And I'm like-

   17. JRJoe Rogan4:12

       (laughs)

   18. JGJustin Gaethje4:12

       (laughs)

   19. TWTrevor Wittman4:12

       ... "All right, cool. Let's go back there."

   20. JRJoe Rogan4:13

       (laughs)

   21. TWTrevor Wittman4:13

       I was like, "Well, we're sparring today. Let's get back here." Then I goes like, "You have any gear?" And he's like, "Cool. What g- what gear do I need?" And I'm just like, "Oh my God," like, "You're out here fighting."

   22. JRJoe Rogan4:21

       (laughs)

   23. TWTrevor Wittman4:22

       I take him to the equipment and I was like, "All right, get some gloves, get some shin guards."

   24. JRJoe Rogan4:25

       What year was this?

   25. TWTrevor Wittman4:25

       This is-

   26. JGJustin Gaethje4:27

       2009.

   27. TWTrevor Wittman4:28

       Yeah. Around there.

   28. JRJoe Rogan4:29

       Imagine, imagine that moment. If someone told you, "11 years from now, you're looking at one of the baddest motherfuckers on earth."

   29. TWTrevor Wittman4:35

       I'd say it took me a week or two to know. Like, yeah, his mindset and the way he trained, like this first session that he had was one of the most unique. So I tell him right about this equipment.

   30. JRJoe Rogan4:44

       (laughs)
4. 5:50 – 8:15

   Building trust: coach-athlete relationship, peaking, and avoiding overtraining

   1. JGJustin Gaethje5:50

      But, um ... Real, real quick before I forget. The one on one thing I was saying, you've heard like five, six guys, uh, as we've been going through these fights say how they appreciate the one-on-one time-

   2. JRJoe Rogan5:59

      Yeah.

   3. JGJustin Gaethje5:59

      And, you know, that's-Going back to what that was, uh, I don't, I don't wanna miss that earlier when, when you were talking about that. That w- that's, that's the biggest thing for me. He's at every single one of my training sessions, talking to me like he was talking to me in my fight for sparring. Um, when he needs to call, throw the towel in or call the fight, he knows. He watches me every day, um, and this one-on-one thing is what these guys are, are understanding is so important, um-

   4. JRJoe Rogan6:22

      It's everything.

   5. JGJustin Gaethje6:23

      ... when it comes to fighting at the high level.

   6. JRJoe Rogan6:24

      It's, it's, uh, having that unique relationship with a trainer, having a trainer where you and the trainer are tight like that, like, uh, DJ had it with Matt Hume. You know, there's a lot of guys who have that kinda one-on GSP had it with Firas Zahabi. That, that relationship is so critical. It's, it's, it's so i- it's so imp- 'cause you're going in there together. Like, you're, you're helping each other. You understand, you've, you know his whole process from begin- I mean, literally with him, you know his entire fighting process from the beginning that first time he was there. Like, that, that's invaluable, man. These guys that are jumping into these super camps and the person is just sorta giving you random general motivation in between the corner, telling you to keep your hands up, work the jab, all that. You know, that's not enough. It's not, it's, it's not optimal. I really feel like the optimal relationship is, uh, a trainer that really knows the athlete well and is with them in, in every, in every training session.

   7. TWTrevor Wittman7:21

      Oh, 100%. And I think, uh, there's a huge issue. Uh, first off, uh, big training camps are key just 'cause the partners. I mean, you will get champion-

   8. JRJoe Rogan7:30

      Yeah.

   9. TWTrevor Wittman7:30

      ... level fighters outta there because you's- you're seeing all different styles. You're seeing wrestlers, grapplers, southpaws, all different sizes.

   10. JRJoe Rogan7:36

       Mm-hmm.

   11. TWTrevor Wittman7:37

       So it's great for that, and you adapt to different athletes. The, the hard part with that is y- most of the guys train in jujitsu somewhere else. They go somewhere else for their conditioning. They go, they go to all these different places and all the coaches are, they, they mean well. They're all like, "Oh, man, you're six weeks out. We gotta train hard." And you're going from one hard session to the next hard session, to the next hard session. And when you're with them all the time, I pull back a lot on him. And that's the key to peaking. Like, a lot of times people just push hard, push hard, push hard. And that's another huge issue in this sport is over-training.

   12. JRJoe Rogan8:08

       Yeah, guys get flat.

   13. TWTrevor Wittman8:08

       I mean, it's, it's again that injuries in this sport are, are, are common all the time, and most injuries are happening in training.

5. 8:15 – 11:44

   Training by intuition and purpose: tailoring heart-rate, style, and goals

   1. JRJoe Rogan8:15

      Uh, when you pull back, are you doing it based on just your general feeling of how he looks and how he's performing, what he's saying? Or are you using heart rate variability, using a, like a Whoop strap or a heart rate monitor or anything?

   2. TWTrevor Wittman8:28

      No, I, uh, a lot of those are, are tech- Uh, when it comes to those types of things, my intuition has always played best for me.

   3. JRJoe Rogan8:34

      Mm-hmm.

   4. TWTrevor Wittman8:35

      And knowing each athlete, each athlete is different. Some athletes need to, to fight at a different heart rate than another.

   5. JRJoe Rogan8:42

      Mm.

   6. TWTrevor Wittman8:42

      Uh, they, they perform better at a, at a steady high heart rate. Some need to spike like in the beginning when he loved to fight, he loved to see people drown and their eyes open, so we trained like that. He wanted to be the most exciting fighter. So I, I'm there to make sure I'm hitting his goals, not my goals. Like, I'm there for the athlete. I train every athlete differently.

   7. JRJoe Rogan9:01

      Mm-hmm.

   8. TWTrevor Wittman9:01

      And it's all about purpose. Like, what's your purpose for fighting? What do you wanna be? And his has changed in the last four fights. Uh, four fights ago, he actually said he wanted to be a world champion, and before that, "I wanna be the most exciting fighter in the world." And it was about going out there causing those wars. And, and in the gym, he was sharp and could box and could really do some athletic stuff, but he loved to see people drown.

   9. JRJoe Rogan9:20

      It's just amazing how technical your striking is, considering the fact that you've really been only doing it for 11 years. I mean, you're one of the best, if not the best striker in the 155 pound division. That's a fact.

   10. JGJustin Gaethje9:33

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan9:33

       And it's the- that clean sharpness of your ... Like your fucking left hook, man, is one of the best I've ever seen. It's so fast-

   12. JGJustin Gaethje9:39

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan9:39

       ... and so there's no fat in there.

   14. JGJustin Gaethje9:41

       He's been telling me, "Uh, one day, you know, your left hook's gonna be your best punch." And I was like, "What are you talking about?" (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan9:46

       Dude.

   16. JGJustin Gaethje9:47

       And yeah, man. It, um ... I'm just, I've played all sports. You know, growing up I was a, I wa- I was a pitcher, I was a quarterback, uh, punter, kicker.

   17. JRJoe Rogan9:54

       Do you think there's a benefit in that? That you just really-

   18. JGJustin Gaethje9:56

       Yeah, I mean throwing a right hand-

   19. JRJoe Rogan9:57

       ... as an athlete?

   20. JGJustin Gaethje9:57

       Throwing a right hand is throwing a baseball.

   21. JRJoe Rogan9:59

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JGJustin Gaethje9:59

       Um, you know, my kick does not necessarily ... I'm just kicking him as hard as I can. Now it's, uh, placement, timing is the most important thing there. But those mechanics that I developed through those, uh, playing other sports, I think has helped me so much. Um, just my athletic ability.

   23. JRJoe Rogan10:14

       Yeah.

   24. JGJustin Gaethje10:14

       And then once I found ... You know, this man is a genius. I can't tell you how the process that he started, uh, 10 years ago, you know. I, I had no idea ... I still don't know what the heck we're doing.

   25. JRJoe Rogan10:26

       (laughs)

   26. JGJustin Gaethje10:26

       Um, (laughs) I'm telling you, it's just a-

   27. JRJoe Rogan10:28

       You just listen.

   28. JGJustin Gaethje10:29

       It's just ... It's j- I, I ... You know, how, how high you want me to jump? That's all. You know, every day I step in there, that's what I'm asking him. And, um, he is an artist. You know, his mind ... You know, I can't see ... Even when he's ... We're talking about our, you know, our, our Onyx equipment. He's telling me these things and I'm like, you know, I can't put it into my head. I can't see it, but I, you know, I know. And then once it's a finished product, it's like holy crap. Same thing when I fight. You know, every time after I fight, I'm like, "Holy shit." Like, I can't believe. You know, we've been working on this for 10 years, but more specifically the, the specific details that I, that I executed in that fight, last fight. You know, we had a short time and there was really certain things that we, uh, he instilled that I had no idea he was instilling. And, um, you know, just came, came to fruition on that night. And it was, it was spectacular to watch. It s- spectacular to go back and watch, uh, after a fight every time, every fight.

   29. JRJoe Rogan11:17

       Trevor, how important is it for a guy to be a coachable athlete too? That's one of the things you and Luke, Luke Cardillo both said after the fight that he's the most coachable athlete.

   30. TWTrevor Wittman11:26

       Uh, that's key. That's ... The whole thing is I'm there to assist. And, uh, you know, I, I, I, I put myself as the co-pilot. Like, I'm there to draw the map and you've gotta trust me around these corners. Like, you're the driver. You're the one that, uh, that knows, but you have to trust me. And to be able to be coachable, I mean, if not, I'm just a water boy.
6. 11:44 – 20:47

   Short-notice chaos: the Tony Ferguson offer, cancellations, and mental readiness

   1. TWTrevor Wittman11:44

      You know? And, uh, h- that's why I'm only co- coaching a few now too, is we gotta, we, we gotta be in this together and you gotta trust me, and I get- I gotta be there for you. And if you trust me, then every decision that I make for you, you've gotta trust. Whether it's, "Hey, don't take this fight." I mean, with the fight, the last fight, I was like, "No, you're not taking a fight." And he's like, "Come on, coach."

   2. JRJoe Rogan12:03

      W- what fight is that?

   3. TWTrevor Wittman12:04

      This is the Toney fight when he first got offered for the first time.And I was like, "No, we were at sparring session." And he's like, "Why not?" And I'm like, "'Cause you said you'd never take a short-notice fight." And I'm like, "No." You know. And then he's like-

   4. JRJoe Rogan12:14

      Yeah, it was like 11 days, right?

   5. TWTrevor Wittman12:15

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan12:15

      Wasn't it something crazy like that?

   7. TWTrevor Wittman12:16

      And he, but we've been training hard, like, all the... And then he hit me with all these points. And he's like, "Dude, with the coronavirus going on, who cares?" He's like, "Let me get in there. I need to fight someone right now. I need to release all this." And his little basic points, I looked at him, I said, "All right. Is it gonna... Are you gonna do it again? Are you gonna stick to your goal on the next one? 'Cause I, I might let you off on this one." And he said, "I will never take a short-notice fight." That's why the second time it was offered, he was even more pissed about it. And I was just like... He's like, "The other one was seven days out. Like, I got nothing to lose, you know. I'll go out on my shield."

   8. JRJoe Rogan12:46

      So this was the f... Let's, let's be clear for everybody.

   9. TWTrevor Wittman12:48

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan12:49

       The, the first time was the, the, the Lemoore, California one.

   11. TWTrevor Wittman12:52

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan12:52

       The Tai Chi Palace.

   13. JGJustin Gaethje12:53

       It was 18th.

   14. TWTrevor Wittman12:54

       Yep.

   15. JRJoe Rogan12:54

       April 18th.

   16. JGJustin Gaethje12:54

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan12:54

       And that was how many days out?

   18. JGJustin Gaethje12:57

       So I got the call, I think-

   19. TWTrevor Wittman12:58

       I think it was 10 or something like that.

   20. JGJustin Gaethje12:59

       No, I think it was, uh, it was f- like 15 days before that fight, I got the call one night. The next day, I went... Well, you know, I called him, he said no that night, went to sparring the next day, and then that's when I talked, you know, not talked him into it, but I, I did like seven hard rounds. Uh, felt great, you know. I had been sparring so much. And so he was like, um... I was like, "Let's do it." You know, I talked him into it. And then so we, we go hard, and then I think it was... When did they cancel? I think it was s- 10 days before the fight, they canceled it.

   21. JRJoe Rogan13:29

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JGJustin Gaethje13:30

       And that's when, you know, it went out the window. And then, um, they called me-

   23. JRJoe Rogan13:35

       So did you-

   24. JGJustin Gaethje13:35

       So then I-

   25. JRJoe Rogan13:35

       ... did you just fall right out of camp? Or did you keep training?

   26. JGJustin Gaethje13:37

       So yeah, I tried... I was down to 168. They called me at like 3:00 PM and that night I went to sleep at like 182. Like-

   27. JRJoe Rogan13:45

       (laughs)

   28. JGJustin Gaethje13:45

       ... I went hard. I went... (laughs) I, you know, just terrible choices. I was like-

   29. JRJoe Rogan13:48

       What'd you eat? What'd you eat?

   30. JGJustin Gaethje13:49

       I took-
7. 20:47 – 25:17

   From wrestler to striker: using wrestling invisibly through clinch leg kicks and positioning

   1. JRJoe Rogan20:47

      You, you made a crazy shift in your career in that you started off as this wrestler, but when I start... first started fu- watching you fight in World Series of Fighting, I was like, "Look at how this motherfucker throws leg kicks." It was kinda crazy like you would throw leg kicks while you were working the body like in close, like even... ve- very... You know, everybody's got their own sort of way of m- moving. Like, everybody's body mechanics are different, but you were throwing these like crazy in-close leg kicks, like you'd be like-

   2. JGJustin Gaethje21:17

      From the clinch, yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan21:18

      ... on top of people.

   4. JGJustin Gaethje21:19

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan21:19

      And you were chopping at their legs. When did you make this shift? Because you don't take anybody down now, which is kinda nuts. If you really think about the fact that you were an All-American wrestler and your, your, your-

   6. JGJustin Gaethje21:30

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan21:30

      ... base is in wrestling, you have not had a single fucking take-down attempt in the UFC.

   8. JGJustin Gaethje21:35

      No, but I, uh, you know, I got taken down for a s- for two seconds when Michael Johnson rocked me.

   9. JRJoe Rogan21:41

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JGJustin Gaethje21:42

       Um, I don't know how they count take-downs in this sport, but it's certainly not like wrestling. A mat re-

   11. JRJoe Rogan21:47

       Not a legit take-down. Yeah.

   12. JGJustin Gaethje21:48

       Yeah. It's not... Uh, Eddie and Dustin tried to take me down, but I scrambled right out of that. I was a great defensive wrestler. Um, I- when I wrestle... I wrestled Jordan Burroughs twice. You know, the first time I stopped his double leg for two and a half periods and then, you know, he pretty much collapsed my sternum and I couldn't take a breath for three months after that, but I mean... and then it, then it, then it, then it gave in, you know, then it broke. My body broke and I couldn't stop it no more. The second time I wrestled him, I stopped every single, you know, double leg he had. Nobody stops that double leg. Um. Fuck was I going with that?

   13. I don't know.

   14. God damn it.

   15. All right. It's you're a bad motherfucker. I'll come back to you.

   16. JRJoe Rogan22:22

       Well, we were talking about your shift between being a wrestler to becoming-

   17. JGJustin Gaethje22:25

       The hidden secret.

   18. Yeah. So, so, I'm sorry. So I was a defensive wrestler. I was-

   19. JRJoe Rogan22:28

       Yeah.

   20. JGJustin Gaethje22:28

       ... never a great offensive wrestler. You know.

   21. JRJoe Rogan22:30

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JGJustin Gaethje22:30

       It was... It was so hard to take me down. When I was All-American, I started in the pigtail round, um, and I beat four... uh, three... number eight seed, number six seed, and I think I beat the number of 10 seed or something, but I gave up the first take-down in every single one of those matches and then they broke because of my defensive pressure, you know. I was constantly hanging on them and my, my leg kicks... Wrestlers, they like to separate wrestling from fighting. I'm just doing the s- I'm just doing them both in the same thing. In the clinch, the clinch is where I'm the most dangerous. With those kicks that you're talking about, that's... if your hands are on, you could s-... you could feel where their weight is shifting, which way they're moving, which way they wanna move, and, um, it's just constantly getting them to, to put all their pressure on a, on a foot and fire a kick, um, from that range. And that's all wrestling. That's... I'm using my wrestling so much when I'm fighting, like it's... it's... When... That's when I hear people say that... And it's so hard to see that with the... Even with the untrained eye or the trained eye it'd be hard to see, but I'm wrestling so much in there. Um-

   23. JRJoe Rogan23:29

       Right. I understand that, but, so that's interesting that your wrestling allows you to do that from the clinch 'cause you have a better understanding about where they're putting their weight 'cause you're manipulating them around.

   24. JGJustin Gaethje23:38

       Yep.

   25. JRJoe Rogan23:38

       And then when they add the weight on that leg, you're chopping at it.

   26. JGJustin Gaethje23:41

       Can't check if your weight-

   27. JRJoe Rogan23:43

       Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

   28. JGJustin Gaethje23:43

       If your weight is on, you cannot pick your weight up to check.

   29. JRJoe Rogan23:45

       I was so bummed out I didn't call the Mich- Michael Johnson fight 'cause I was a big fan of yours. And when you were coming to the UFC, I was like, "Oh, shit." I was like, "This is gonna be fun." And then I, and then when I found out you were doing that Michael Johnson fight, I was like, "Fuck." I'm like, "I can't call that one. I'm not gonna be doing that one." And then I got the chance to watch it, and I believe it was the night before we had a card.

   30. JGJustin Gaethje24:03

       Yep.
8. 25:17 – 26:26

   Career crossroads: two UFC losses, fighting ‘in spots,’ and redefining defense

   1. JRJoe Rogan25:17

      I was like, "This is big, dude. I need to get ... I was like, "I need to be on point." I was like, "I don't understand why I'm not feeling anything." Yeah, that was in ... The, The Vik fight was very interesting because that was one of the first, uh, uh, little times we got to see real animosity from you too. You were, you were genuinely pissed off at him. I could tell. He was talking a lot of shit-

   2. JGJustin Gaethje25:32

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan25:33

      ... about how, you know, you're a human punching bag, and he was gonna knock you out. And you could see, like, you were, you were, like, genuinely angry at him.

   4. JGJustin Gaethje25:40

      I was backed into a corner. Um-

   5. JRJoe Rogan25:41

      Yeah.

   6. JGJustin Gaethje25:42

      I'm human, man. I had to fight back. So, uh, yeah. I was, uh, defending myself mostly, but I was in such a tough spot coming off too lost, you know?

   7. JRJoe Rogan25:52

      Right.

   8. JGJustin Gaethje25:52

      I knew what I had. I knew I had the skills, you know. I knew ... And it was just-

   9. JRJoe Rogan25:56

      Well, both of those fights were very close fights too.

   10. JGJustin Gaethje25:59

       The fight with me-

   11. JRJoe Rogan25:59

       You both ... Very similar.

   12. JGJustin Gaethje26:00

       Very similar.

   13. JRJoe Rogan26:00

       In both of your super fights.

   14. JGJustin Gaethje26:01

       Eddie Alvarez won five of the ... Mike-

   15. JRJoe Rogan26:02

       Yeah.

   16. JGJustin Gaethje26:02

       So, Michael Johnson, Eddie Alvarez, Dustin Poirier, my first three fights in the UFC, 2017, 2018, they were voted top three out of five. That's out of 958 fights. That's what I did, and I only got paid half for those two fights. That's, that's what hurt me the most. But then, those-

   17. JRJoe Rogan26:18

       But they were both real similar too in the fact that you almost stopped both those guys with leg kicks.

   18. JGJustin Gaethje26:22

       Very similar. And they're, they're ... They were similar in the fact how I lost.

   19. JRJoe Rogan26:25

       Yeah.

   20. JGJustin Gaethje26:25

       I came, I became complacent.

   21. JRJoe Rogan26:26

       Right.

9. 26:26 – 37:36

   Mindset, identity, and staying grounded: emotions, crowds, and life after fighting

   1. JGJustin Gaethje26:26

      I was having too much fun. I forgot that I was fighting the best of the best. And, um, I was ... I love it too much, you know. And not having the crowd there, I think ... So, I don't ... I think it helped me so much, and I think it's gonna car- Whether there's crowd or no crowd in the future, I think it's going to benefit me so much, because I was able to understand that the crowd does influence my emotions. And, um-

   2. JRJoe Rogan26:49

      Hmm.

   3. JGJustin Gaethje26:49

      I ... My only rule is never allow someone or something to affect or control your emotions, and I wasn't, I wasn't aware that the crowd was having that effect on my emotions, and the fact that I would have engaged more. I would have taken more chances in that fight with Tony. Um, and I didn't do that because I think I was able to be in control of my emotions for the whole time, for every second.

   4. JRJoe Rogan27:10

      That's interesting because that fight was so wild. If there was a crowd there for that fight, holy shit. That was a-

   5. JGJustin Gaethje27:15

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan27:16

      It would-

   7. JGJustin Gaethje27:16

      I would have engaged.

   8. JRJoe Rogan27:17

      It would have been a crazy crowd. I mean, if that was T-Mobile Arena, holy shit. I mean, that would have been madness.

   9. JGJustin Gaethje27:22

      Totally.

   10. JRJoe Rogan27:22

       That fight would have been so crazy.

   11. JGJustin Gaethje27:24

       I would have ... I would have ... It would have been crazy, but it was super unique to be able to be a part of something like that-

   12. JRJoe Rogan27:29

       Yeah.

   13. JGJustin Gaethje27:29

       ... with no crowd, so it was like, it was super cool. Like, he's going on and saying that he would have. I don't know if he would have, because if you look at the three fights prior to that, there's a huge difference in your, in your range and your balanced shoulders. Like, he's, he's out ranged. He ... You out ranged Vik. You out ... You, you, you still pressure, but he's got balanced shoulders now. He used to be front heavy and that was a pressure fighter. He was ... Weight was on the front leg and he was pointed with the head. Now, he's level shoulder where his range is just crazy. Like, with Tony, Tony was like, he couldn't find you with your range-

   14. JRJoe Rogan27:58

       Right.

   15. JGJustin Gaethje27:59

       ... and your speed and your balance, and, uh, that-

   16. JRJoe Rogan28:00

       Which is footwork.

   17. JGJustin Gaethje28:02

       ... straight-up strength. Totally. And Tony's ... Tony will push you back, hit you with combos all the way back to the cage. Ours was dominate the center, uh, of the cage and use your footwork. Like, keep him off balance, and-

   18. JRJoe Rogan28:12

       No-

   19. JGJustin Gaethje28:12

       That's what he's done well in his last four fights.

   20. JRJoe Rogan28:15

       Yeah.

   21. JGJustin Gaethje28:15

       And we shifted game plans completely when I had the conversation with him, because he was like ... 'Cause at the ... After the first loss, it wasn't much change that, that he wanted. He still wanted to fight that way. After the second one, he's like, "I need to change something." I'm like, "What, what's your purpose? You were the most exciting fighter and what do you want to be?" And he's like, "I want to be the champion." I was like, "Then you have to be intelligent. You have to be intelligent. To be the best fighter in the world, you've got to be the best defensive fighter."

   22. JRJoe Rogan28:37

       Yeah.

   23. JGJustin Gaethje28:37

       Don't change who you are, naturally, but you have to understand defense, and defense starts with position.

   24. JRJoe Rogan28:42

       Yeah.

   25. JGJustin Gaethje28:42

       Always starts with position. You have to know position. You have to win every position.

   26. JRJoe Rogan28:46

       Well, you, you came into a real crossroads, right? Because you were this incredibly exciting contender, you come into the UFC, giant prospect, everybody's excited. You have this fucking chaotic war that reaffirms everybody's hopes and aspirations. Like, "This is what we were hoping. Justin Gaethje's gonna come to the UFC. Holy shit. There's gonna be wild, man. This motherfucker doesn't care. He, he throws down." You throw down with Michael Johnson, like, "Ah," and then you have those two losses in a row and people think, "Okay, is he in over his head? Is that s- Does that style only work on the lower level guys?" And you get to championship caliber guys, like ... But, you know, Dustin's never held the title, but he's a championship caliber guy.

   27. JGJustin Gaethje29:22

       Yep.

   28. JRJoe Rogan29:23

       And, and so is Eddie Alvarez. He's a championship caliber guy. He won the title. So, you're looking at those two guys like maybe when you get to that point, maybe, maybe he's not ready for this or maybe he doesn't have the style, so then you make this adjustment. So, tell me what that was like. You make ... You sit back. You guys have this conversation. You say you want to be a world champion, and then what, what changed in your head?

   29. JGJustin Gaethje29:45

       So, it's ... He can tell it so much better than me 'cause for me, it's ... It's ... I can't explain it because for ... It's never been anything. Um, it's just do what I'm told to do-

   30. JRJoe Rogan29:58

       Mm-hmm.
10. 37:36 – 1:11:44

    Comic detour with real stakes: cups, sparring safety, and ‘protect your jewels’

    1. TWTrevor Wittman37:36

       Totally. And, and I had fighters say, "Man, you, you're always saying just positive shit. You're always just like..." And I'm like, "Hell yeah, you gotta love every part of it." Like, I'm gonna say beautiful at any point. When I see you get hurt to the body, I'ma crack up. He got kicked in the cup. He had a big old cup-

    2. JGJustin Gaethje37:48

       (laughs)

    3. TWTrevor Wittman37:48

       ... uh, the last fight. He got kicked in the cup. He turned sideways, did the move we were talking about we call it moonwalk where we, where we turn lateral. You don't get the f- uh, the squareness from the front kick. He did it perfect and he stepped back and, and, aimed at his cup. And I'm like, "How'd you get hit in your cup?" He had a Georges St-Pierre cup on.

    4. JGJustin Gaethje38:01

       (laughs)

    5. TWTrevor Wittman38:02

       With the cu- with the cu- the cup too, too big for the tights.

    6. JGJustin Gaethje38:04

       The tight, just too tight.

    7. TWTrevor Wittman38:05

       And I laughed and I was like, "Dude, he hit you in the cup." But I was just having of the fun.

    8. JGJustin Gaethje38:09

       The tight, just too tight.

    9. TWTrevor Wittman38:09

       You know? It's, uh, uh-

    10. JGJustin Gaethje38:10

        What kind of cup do you use? Dude.

    11. TWTrevor Wittman38:12

        He forgot his cup.

    12. JGJustin Gaethje38:13

        How many-

    13. TWTrevor Wittman38:13

        He's got his cup in his mouthpiece from his last fight.

    14. JGJustin Gaethje38:15

        I do, but, yeah, so the UFC always has one. I just grab one for them. What? (laughs) The UFC has a cup just laying around?

    15. TWTrevor Wittman38:21

        It's a ...

    16. JGJustin Gaethje38:21

        They got, no, no, it's ... They're new cups. They got ... I'm not the only one that forgets their cup. Oh, okay. So what do they ... They give you just like a regular athletic supporter? This one was actually a really nice cup. Oh, it is? Uh, just, just, just a cup and I stick it in my underwear that has a little pocket for the cup. Jesus Christ.

    17. TWTrevor Wittman38:35

        He train, he trains with no cup. A- there's so many people-

    18. JGJustin Gaethje38:38

        What?

    19. TWTrevor Wittman38:38

        ... but ... There's, there's so many people-

    20. JGJustin Gaethje38:38

        I've never sparred with a cup on. What? I mean what-

    21. TWTrevor Wittman38:39

        ... that don't train with, through with cups.

    22. JGJustin Gaethje38:41

        D- j- y- you know the guys lose balls. Do any touch you on the body?

    23. TWTrevor Wittman38:43

        So, so Duane Ludwig, d- (knocking)

    24. JGJustin Gaethje38:45

        Right? Jesus.

    25. TWTrevor Wittman38:46

        (laughs)

    26. JGJustin Gaethje38:46

        Guys lose balls. You know guys lose balls. Duane Ludwig had to get carried out, put in the back seat and- Oh, fuck.

    27. TWTrevor Wittman38:51

        ... and went in, went in for some type of surgery and I wasn't there for that one.

    28. JGJustin Gaethje38:55

        Ball surgery?

    29. TWTrevor Wittman38:56

        Dude, he got kicked in the ball.

    30. JGJustin Gaethje38:57

        Oh.

Episode duration: 2:46:25