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Lenny's PodcastJulie Zhuo: How AI is flattening orgs into broader builders
At Sundial, no dedicated PMs: engineers cover design and analysis; Zhuo diagnoses with data and treats with design, leading like a sturdy, flexible willow.
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Episode Details
EPISODE INFO
- Released
- September 21, 2025
- Duration
- 1h 36m
- Channel
- Lenny's Podcast
- Watch on YouTube
- ▶ Open ↗
EPISODE DESCRIPTION
Julie Zhuo is the former VP and Head of Design at Facebook (now Meta), author of the bestselling book The Making of a Manager, and co-founder of Sundial, an AI-powered data analysis company. Also, my first-ever podcast guest over 3 years ago! *In our conversation, we discuss:*
- The three core manager skills that translate directly to managing AI agents
- How her team uses AI to learn new skills 10x faster
- The “diagnose with data, treat with design” framework for balancing gut and data
- Why hypergrowth AI companies have terrible data infrastructure (and why it doesn’t matter)
- How to give feedback that actually lands—including Julie’s exact script for difficult conversations
- What Julie’s teaching her kids about an AI future (hint: it’s not coding or STEM)
*Brought to you by:* Mercury—The art of simplified finances: https://mercury.com/ DX—The developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers: http://getdx.com/lenny PostHog—How developers build successful products: https://posthog.com/lenny *Transcript:* https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/from-managing-people-to-managing-ai-julie-zhuo *My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers):* https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/172723725/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation *Where to find Julie Zhuo:*
- X: https://x.com/joulee
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/julie-zhuo/
- Website: https://www.juliezhuo.com/
- Newsletter: https://lg.substack.com/
- Sundial: https://sundial.so/
*Where to find Lenny:*
- Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
- X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
*In this episode, we cover:* (00:00) Welcome back, Julie! (05:18) The success of The Making of a Manager (08:41) Why AI will make everyone a manager (11:38) The future of management roles (14:00) Empowering teams with AI (21:30) Specific roles being accelerated by AI (26:53) Data analysis in AI companies (32:02) The role of data in design (37:21) The evolving role of managers in the AI era (40:22) Embracing change and uncertainty (42:14) Timeless lessons for managers (49:03) Balancing strengths and weaknesses (57:49) Building a feedback culture (01:05:33) Creating win-win situations (01:09:27) Being aware of your own energy and conviction (01:12:12) Navigating disagreements with higher-ups (01:15:57) AI corner (01:20:08) Contrarian corner (01:23:14) Lightning round and final thoughts *Referenced:*
- Julie Zhuo on accelerating your career, impostor syndrome, writing, building product sense, using intuition vs. data, hiring designers, and moving into management: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/episode-2-julie-zhuo
- Waymo: https://waymo.com/
- How we restructured Airtable’s entire org for AI | Howie Liu (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-we-restructured-airtables-entire-org-for-ai
- Cursor: https://cursor.com/
- The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell
- Inside ChatGPT: The fastest growing product in history | Nick Turley (Head of ChatGPT at OpenAI): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-chatgpt-nick-turley
- Behind the founder: Marc Benioff: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-founder-marc-benioff
- OpenAI’s CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai
- Anthropic’s CPO on what comes next | Mike Krieger (co-founder of Instagram): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropics-cpo-heres-what-comes-next
- The Magic Loop: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-magic-loop
- Dunning-Kruger effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
- Eric Antonow on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/antonow/
- Methaphone: https://methaphone.com/
- Replit: https://replit.com/
- “Baby” by Justin Bieber on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/track/6epn3r7S14KUqlReYr77hA
- Kingdom Rush: https://www.kingdomrush.com/
- Dr. Becky on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@drbeckyatgoodinside
- Emily Oster on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@profemilyoster
- La La Land on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80095365
- Granola: https://www.granola.ai/
- Matic robots: https://maticrobots.com/
- Limitless pendant: https://www.limitless.ai/
- How I AI: https://www.youtube.com/@howiaipodcast
...References continued at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/from-managing-people-to-managing-ai-julie-zhuo _Production and marketing by https://penname.co/._ _For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com._ Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
SPEAKERS
Lenny Rachitsky
hostJulie Zhuo
guestNarrator
otherNarrator
other
EPISODE SUMMARY
In this episode of Lenny's Podcast, featuring Lenny Rachitsky and Julie Zhuo, Julie Zhuo: How AI is flattening orgs into broader builders explores Managing AI Like People: Julie Zhuo’s Blueprint for Future Leaders Julie Zhuo argues that the core skills of great management—setting clear goals, understanding strengths, and designing effective processes—map directly onto managing AI models and agents.
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