Joe Hudson: Why enjoying work 10% more makes you 10% faster

1. 0:00 – 2:31

   Joe’s background

   1. JHJoe Hudson0:00

      (instrumental music) A lot of the people in my circles, they have spent hundreds of millions of dollars to try to arrange a life that they enjoy and it doesn't fucking work.

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky0:08

      What is holding people back?

   3. JHJoe Hudson0:09

      It's the fact that they have emotions that they are not sitting, feeling, or expressing. Whatever emotion that you're trying to avoid, you are inviting into your life in exactly the way that you're trying to avoid it.

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky0:20

      What the hell? Why would (laughs) ... Why does this happen?

   5. JHJoe Hudson0:23

      (laughs)

   6. LRLenny Rachitsky0:23

      You have this really amazing insight. The voice in your head is often telling you bullshit.

   7. JHJoe Hudson0:27

      What most people try to do is they try to stop it, and that doesn't work very well. I think the best way to work with the voice in the head is to pick an experiment every day and respond to the voice in the head in a new way every day. One of my favorite responses is, "Oh, I see that you're really scared. Don't worry, I'm right here with you. I got you."

   8. LRLenny Rachitsky0:42

      You're really big on helping people feel joy.

   9. JHJoe Hudson0:44

      It is, like, such an important tool for productivity. If you say, "I'm gonna figure out how to enjoy what I do 10% more," and you succeed, you are 10% more efficient. Not only that, usually the quality is gonna get a lot better too.

   10. LRLenny Rachitsky0:57

       Is there just, like, one thing you recommend that basically everyone try to experiment with?

   11. JHJoe Hudson1:02

       Yeah. It'll change your life dramatically really quickly.

   12. LRLenny Rachitsky1:04

       (instrumental music) Today, my guest is Joe Hudson. Joe is one of the most sought-after executive coaches amongst tech leaders and has worked with folks from OpenAI, SpaceX, Apple, and other world-class companies. Joe's unique approach to coaching draws from his spiritual, psychological, and neurological practices, and in his intimate courses that he runs a few times a year and in his podcast, he helps people create the life that they want with enjoyment and ease. In our conversation, Joe shares the two things that he finds most often keep people stuck in their life and in their job and how to work on getting these things unstuck, why the critical voice in your head is always wrong, contradictory, and telling you bullshit, and how to build a different relationship with that voice, why falling in love with your emotions is so important and so powerful, why you'd be better off focusing on what you want versus what you think you should do or think that you need to do, plus a bunch of amazing advice on how to make better decisions, help your team run more effectively, and why a seven-minute daily gratitude practice will change your life. This episode is basically for every single person and will make your life and your work better. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and helps the podcast tremendously. With that, I bring you Joe Hudson.

2. 2:31 – 6:39

   The critical voice in your head

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky2:31

      Joe, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

   2. JHJoe Hudson2:34

      Oh, thanks. Good to be here.

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky2:36

      It's good to have you. I'm curious if there's any common themes that emerge often in terms of what is holding people back from success or just living the life that they want, especially as ambitious tech people, which I know is a lot of the folks that you work with.

   4. JHJoe Hudson2:52

      Yeah.

   5. LRLenny Rachitsky2:52

      Are there kinda, like, archetypes of, like, here's the thing often come up most often and hold people back?

   6. JHJoe Hudson2:57

      A non-specific answer to that question would be a critical voice in their head and, like, a, uh, and a relationship with that critical voice that is no- not productive. So, oftentimes, the critical voice in the head says, "You need me to be productive," but it's usually a huge detriment to, to being able to really be successful, and, and even if you are successful with a really critical voice in your head, you never get to enjoy it. You, you're like, you might have the money, but then you're like, "Oh shit, I'm still miserable." (laughs) You know, or, or, "I got the, I got the car, I got the house, I got the money, I got the successful career," and, like, "Why am I unhappy all the time?" So that would be, I would say, one of the biggest ones. The, another really big one that, uh, in a large category, I would say, is, uh, the relationship with emotions is all fakada. They are either trying to pretend they don't have them or, uh, compartmentalizing them or trying to manage them rather than harnessing them and, and falling in love with them. So that would be another, uh, big place.

   7. LRLenny Rachitsky4:06

      (instrumental music) This episode is brought to you by BuildBetter.ai. Back in 2020 when AI was just a toy, Build Better bet that it could cut down on product teams' operational BS. Fast forward to today, 23,000 product teams use purpose built AI in Build Better every day. First, Build Better uses custom models to turn unstructured data, like product and sales calls, support tickets, internal communications and surveys into structured insights. It's like having a dedicated data science team. Second, Build Better runs those structured insights into workflows, like weekly reports about customer issues, context-aware PRDs, and user research documents with citations. It even turns standups into action items that automatically get assigned and shared into your tools. Plus, with unlimited seat pricing on all plans, Build Better ensures everyone at your company has access to this knowledge. Truly, no data silos. In a world of AI demos overpromising and under-delivering, see why Build Better has a 93% subscription retention. Get a personalized demo and use code Lenny for $100 credit if you sign up now at BuildBetter.ai/Lenny. This episode is brought to you by WorkOS. If you're building a SaaS app, at some point, your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SAML authentication and SCIM provisioning. That's where WorkOS comes in, making it fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app. Their APIs are easy to understand so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features. Today, hundreds of companies are already powered by WorkOS, including ones you probably know, like Vercel, Webflow, and Loom. WorkOS also recently acquired Warrant, the fine-grained authorization service. Warrant's product is based on a groundbreaking authorization system called Zanzibar, which was originally designed for Google to power Google Docs and YouTube.This enables fast authorization checks at enormous scale, while maintaining a flexible model that can be adapted to even the most complex use cases. If you're currently looking to build role-based access control or other enterprise features like single sign-on, SCIM, or user management, you should consider WorkOS. It's a drop-in replacement for Auth0 and supports up to one million monthly active users for free. Check it out at workos.com to learn more. That's workos.com. These are awesome.

3. 6:39 – 13:19

   Changing your relationship with the critical voice

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky6:39

      Okay, so the voice in your head, uh, you have... There's a really amazing insight that I heard on one of your podcast episodes-

   2. JHJoe Hudson6:44

      Yeah.

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky6:45

      ... that the voice in your head is often wrong, often contradictory, often telling you bullshit, and that your advice is to learn how to work very differently with this voice in your head, which a lot of people just assume, "Oh, that's just, like, what it is. It's telling me how... It's trying to help me." But turns out, it's not. Can you talk about that?

   4. JHJoe Hudson7:04

      Yeah, I would... I would say every single time, the voice in your head is, is wrong. So it's not... The critical voice in your head, the... So to be specific, I'm talking about the voice in your head that is critical and repeats. So you know, there's the voice, the voice that says the same thing over and over again, "You gotta, you gotta work out more. You gotta work out more. You gotta work out more," whatever that is. It's always wrong. And that doesn't mean there isn't truth to what it says, but it, it's, it's incorrect. So as an example of this, like, "You should work out more. You should work out more. You should work out more," or, "You need, uh, you need me or you just sit around on the couch," is a great example of one. And, and... But if I was your boss and I was sitting right next to you and I was criticizing you every couple minutes, there's n- no way that you would say, "Wow, I really need you. I, um, I couldn't be productive without you." It's a bunch of crap. So... Or, "You should work out. You should work out." Okay, so I, I see the truth that the... uh, I'd be healthier if I work out. I get that. Should I? Is it really a should? There's another question. W- what makes it not say, "Oh, hey, I, I... Why don't you enjoy working out? How do we get you to enjoy working out?" What's the... What, what would motivate you to work out? It's not doing any of that. It's, "You should work out. You should work out." So there's... It's never an accurate thing that's happening in- inside of your head. And until you can see through that, it's hard to work with the voice in your head. You can do it, but until you see through it. The second part that I would say is that if you want to work with your voice in a new way, what most people try to do is they try to stop it. They try to, you know, control the voice in the head and that doesn't work very well. So instead, I say change the way that you relate to the negative voice in your head. So instead of being, "Okay, s- you, you... Stop doing that. Stop doing that," say, "Oh, I see that you're really scared and I'm right here with you." Or sing a musical to it or just go, "Eh, I don't believe you." I don't... Like, w- As a matter of fact, I think the best way to work with the voice in the head is to pick an experiment every day and respond to the voice in the head in a new way every day, to have an experimental approach and say, "Oh, what's the relationship I want with this negative voice in my head?" Because right now, what it's typically doing for most people is that it says something and the person's like, "Yeah," or, "Yeah, but I'm not gonna do that, so fuck off," or, "Yeah," and, "I... Yeah, that'll never work." You know, something like that is... it's kind of the response. And so what, what happens if you change the response to the voice in your head? And that gives you a, a crap ton of freedom, and it's the beginning of what can be a state where the negative voice in the head disappears, which is really, really quite lovely.

   5. LRLenny Rachitsky9:43

      Oh, wow.

   6. JHJoe Hudson9:44

      Yeah.

   7. LRLenny Rachitsky9:44

      Uh, I love this so much because there's so much that comes from this thing in your head just shooting you down or scaring you about stuff. But it's so hard. Like, I hear this, but it's so hard. Next time I'm, I don't know, giving a big presentation, I'm gonna hear like, "Oh, you're gonna... He's gonna... Something could go wrong. You could look really stupid, or you could totally forget what you're saying." And it's, like, hard to really intellectualize, "Okay, I don't have to listen to this." Is there anything more there of just, like, how to turn that around and be like, just like, "Shut up"?

   8. JHJoe Hudson10:11

      Yes, the shut up usually doesn't work. I mean, experiment with all of it. You know, uh, to me, I would... My, my... One of my favorite responses is, "Oh, I see that you're really scared. Don't worry, I'm right here with you. I got you." Because the... part of the deal is that the voice in the head has assumed the position that it's like the boss, but it's really like a little kid having a temper tantrum that... I mean, if you listen to it, if you just, like, dictated everything it said, it sounds like usually, like, a five-year-old having a temper tantrum. Or it sounds like the way your mom used to chastise you, or the way your dad used to chastise you or whatever, whether teacher. So... But it, it isn't... It's not logical. It's not, it's not thoughtful. It's not... typically not thoughtful. It's, it's usually abusive. And so it's a lot of fear. So I, I like... It's one of my favorites, one of my favorite ways to respond. But I've tried, I mean, gosh, dozens of ways and there's a lot of, like, neat, effective ways and, and, and I particularly think it's really good to set up a se- series of experiments rather than just take the one that I have, because the experimental mindset means, means that you can never really fail. So the... typically somebody, like, works with the voice in the head, they fail and they go, "Ah, fuck it," because you ha- we have this part of our brain called the hymenala. And the hymenala basically is the part of, of our brain that is trying to teach us not to fail over and over again. So it's the thing that, like, when you go on a diet or you go to work out and then you don't do it one day and you say, "Ah, fuck it, I messed up," and then you don't try anymore or you don't try for a couple weeks or whatever that thing... That's basically what's happening in that part of the brain. So if you do it as an experimental thing, then you actually... You can't lose. You're just learning about yourself. You're learning about the voice in your head. And the way I like thinking about that is, uh, people are like, "I understand the problem, but I don't have a solution." And I'm always like, "If you understood the problem there, uh, there would be no question about the solution." You can't... If you fully understand a problem, you know the solution. So all you have to do is really fully understand the voice in your head through a series of experiments and the-... whole thing goes away.

   9. LRLenny Rachitsky12:16

      So, the advice here is next time you're hearing something in your head that you don't think is going to be helpful to you, is try to respond to it in a different way from what you've been doing.

   10. JHJoe Hudson12:25

       I would say be- be even more subtle than that, which is, uh, I wouldn't really, wouldn't care if it- if you think it's helpful to you or not. (laughs) I would just-

   11. LRLenny Rachitsky12:33

       Hmm.

   12. JHJoe Hudson12:33

       ... I would just experiment with different ways of interacting with it. And I wouldn't even do it as a goal of, "Okay, I want the voice in the head to be nicer to me." I would do it with the goal of just, "Hey, how do I learn? How do I... How do I understand this thing?" It's- it's like a far more produ... And self-development generally, it's far more productive to learn, say, about the river valley by walking through it, putting your feet in the river, going down the river with a canoe, smelling the soil, looking at the plants than it is to, you know, say, "Okay, I am going to dam this river valley and try to..." (laughs) You know.

   13. LRLenny Rachitsky13:13

       Dominate it.

   14. JHJoe Hudson13:13

       Like that, it's just not gonna under... You're not gonna understand it the same way. You're gonna make some mistakes.

   15. LRLenny Rachitsky13:18

       Amazing.

4. 13:19 – 19:52

   Understanding and embracing emotions

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky13:19

      The second bucket that you shared of what you find most often is kind of the root of what's holding people back is, the way you described it as your relationship with your emotions, which I don't think a lot of people would think of as the thing that's holding them back. Can you talk a bit more about what that looks like?

   2. JHJoe Hudson13:32

      Yeah, great way to explain it. So I- I'll d- for the logical folks, I'll- I'll... So in 2012 or so, there was a person who wrote a book called Descartes' Error. And in Descartes' Error, the whole idea is that I think, therefore I am. And this person's like, "Yeah, that's the error." And it's a neuroscientist who looked at people who had damage in the emotional center of their brain, and they just basically s- ceased to be able to make decisions. so their IQ would stay the same, but it would take them half an hour to decide where to have lunch or decide what color to... pen to use. It would take hours and hours to make simple decisions. So their IQ would stay high, but their entire life would completely fall apart. And what it tells us, and this is not exact, I'm paraphrasing for a podcast, but we make decisions in the emotional center of our brain. We use logic to try to figure out how we're gonna feel. So you can see this just by asking yourself the question, how many, uh, decisions have you made to feel like a success or to not feel like a failure or to feel happier, to not feel trapped or to... Right? So there's these huge buckets of emotions that we are trying to feel and not feel, and we're making decisions based on those. There's no such thing as a logical decision, you know, that idea is like, "I'm just going to be logical and just make a logical decision." It doesn't... Neurologically, it's just untrue. So, so if you learn to fall in love with all of your emotions, then solution sets become available that you didn't have before. So if you are like, "Oh, I can't feel like a failure," well then you- you're probably not gonna take certain risks. And if you are, "Oh, I can't... I don't... I want to feel loved and I can't feel unliked by people." Well, then you're not gonna say your truth. And then the world is going to not give you the things that are truthful to you, right? I go into my boss, I say my truth, I get fired. Okay, I get fired. But then probably my next boss, I say my truth to. I'm gonna ha- I'm gonna find a location where my truth is and how I want to be in the world is gonna be acceptable. But if- if I don't do that, if I'm constantly managing myself, then I'm not gonna have that reality. And so it's really important just for the em- just for the decision making part, how important emotions are to be able to fall in love with each of the emotional experiences. So you're not making decisions based on your inability to feel stuff. That's like one, there's, uh, literally a thousand others. Mo- most people, they feel stuck. They can have a big emotional release and they don't feel stuck anymore. Uh, when people feel overwhelmed, it's usually not the amount of crap that they have going on in their life. It's the fact that they have emotions that they are not sitting, feeling or expressing. That's another huge chunk of stuff. Depression is usually unmoved. Anger is another example. So, there's so many levels in which people not able to feel really limits their life. Just a- a... One that's like almost everybody can relate to is feeling excitement is something that most people can only do for about 10 to 20 seconds. Most people aren't like, "Oh, I'm..." Like, "I'm excited." Like if you walked into a Denny's and there was this person there, 60-year-old man and just excited and was excited for like 10 minutes, you'd be like, "What the... Like, what's wrong with this person?" Right? But when we're excited, it's contagious. You know, I walk into a meeting and I'm excited. Probably other people are gonna walk out excited. And so we're limiting just the- our ability to, uh, create collaboration by the fact that we're limited by our excitement. Uh, and I could go on forever, so the- there's so many experiences like this.

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky17:06

      So what I'm hearing is the core issue is we're not able to feel our emotion, but there's something there like we are angry or scared and because we can't feel it, we just can't break through that.

   4. JHJoe Hudson17:17

      Yeah, not quite. So if you have somebody who's experienced a lot of emotional abuse in their life, then they might not be able to feel the emotions that they're having, and particularly where you experience the emotional abuse. So that might be the case for them. So for instance, if you had physical abuse and I put a quarter in one of your hands and a key in another one of your hands without telling you which was which, you wouldn't be able to tell me if you'd suffered enough physical abuse because you've literally cut that sensation off, right? And so similarly, people who've experienced emotional abuse can often not tell what the emotions are. Now, emotional abuse is, it's a big word. Generally, people don't even like con- equating the two. But for- for just to agree on terms here, when I say emotional abuse, I mean you were told that you weren't allowed to have a certain emotion. That- that's what I mean by emotional abuse. So, maybe you got fed every time you got angrier or you got, uh, your love removed or you got punished, or maybe every time you cried you were made fun of. That, you know, my particular background.... was that. And so it's when you weren't allowed to feel certain emotions, you were told to, to cut it off because it wasn't gonna be safe, 'cause you were either gonna get bribed out of it or punished out of it, or loved removed because of it, or made fun of, or whatever it is. So that, that might be that, but the place... So that might be a step that one has to take, but the place you wanna get to is where the emotions are fluid, where it just moves right through you. It doesn't mean that you lose control. As a matter of fact, losing control means that there's still resistance in it. So the way I think about this is that emotions are, uh, like a tube, let's say, and there's water moving through the tube, and you kink a tube one way, the water comes out a little funny. Kink the tube the other way, it comes out a little funny. So let's say you have anger, and that's the tube of... And you crank it one way and it's like, "You son of a bitch, you blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." You kink it another way and it's like, "Nice dress." You know, you crank it another way and it's guilt. It's like, "Why would you ever do that to me?" And then if it's unkinked, then it's like Gandhi or Martin Luther King, it's like this very loving boundary that's set. It's this clarity, of purpose. So that's, that's how I think about it. So the idea is to get to fluidity, to unkink the hose so that all of the, the emotional experiences come out with, with love.

   5. LRLenny Rachitsky19:44

      I did a meditation retreat, a 10-day silent meditation retreat, which I know is a big part of your practice and something that led to the work you do now. And-

   6. JHJoe Hudson19:51

      Yeah.

5. 19:52 – 24:40

   The importance of emotional fluidity

   1. JHJoe Hudson19:52

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky19:52

      ... uh, a term that's coming up for me is, uh, non-judgmental awareness. Basically experiencing the thing you're feeling and just letting it go, not attaching to it, not judging it. Is that, is that kind of along those lines of stuff you'd recommend?

   3. JHJoe Hudson20:03

      Yeah, it's definitely a huge part of it. There's a couple things that I noticed get in the way, or the translation gets in the way there. One is it's like, think about emotions as like kids in your house, and, and if like a kid came into your house and you're like, "I will be non-judgmentally aware of you," you're probably gonna get a very different response from the kid than if you're like, "Oh, I'm so excited to see you. Uh, like I, I welcome you in my house." And the emotions feel different if you're like, "I am non-judgmentally aware of this emotion," or, "Oh, cool." Like, "Oh, cool, I'm sad. This is fantastic." If you have that, like, welcoming invitation, and one of the things that I, I... One of the quotes that I'm most famous for is, "Joy is the matriarch of a family of emotions, and she won't come into a house where her children aren't welcome." And so, like, a very joyful life is a life where all the other emotions are, are deeply welcomed. Not accepted, not non-judgmentally aware of, right? And I think those are really great steps, don't get me wrong. Uh, like if you can be a non-judgmental awareness of an emotion, fantastic. The other thing that's a little bit different about what you said is that emotions do need to be felt, like they, they... If you stop feeling an emotion, you have to con- constrict your muscles. So I can watch somebody come in, come up for one of my coaching, rapid coaching sessions, and by the crease in their eyebrow I can s- know that there's repressed anger. By the, uh, the, the hunch in their shoulders, I can tell you about the critical parent that they had. So the, the body takes on a shape that's based on the emotions that, that you've been taught to hold. And so you don't... Just by sitting there, well, it's not, not entirely true. If you just sit there and feel them in that way without the full expression, they will move eventually, but it might take a couple decades. But if you... Yeah, you can actually just move them. You can actually make the sound, move your body. Uh, all mammals do it, you know, like mammals releasing fear, they all shake. It's part of how we exist. And so that's also a really big part of emotional, emotional fluidity. It's not just being still and feeling them, it's letting the muscles move, making the sounds.

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky22:22

      For someone that wants to get better at the skill of feeling emotions, being more in touch with emotions, helping their emotions be more fluid, I know this is like a lifelong practice and not something that you would just hear on a podcast. "Okay, um, I've solved this." Is there anything tactically you can recommend to a listener of just like, here's something you could do this week that'll help you along these lines?

   5. JHJoe Hudson22:40

      We have a, uh, a free, uh, audio on our website called Emotional Inquiry, and that would be the easiest way that I would... That's a really good entry level, first step into, um, uh, into emotional fluidity. But the, the bigger problem is that every step has a different thing. So if you're in the not aware of emotions, then that step may not be the right step for you. Um, though if you are aware of two or three emotions and you can do emotional inquiry, usually it, it'll open up a lot of the other ones. There might be a point where you really need expression, and so emotional inquiry is not gonna work. But just generally the emotional inquiry practice is a really good one. And, and what it is, is like if... Imagine you're a little kid and you pick up a, a toad, right? You're gonna pick it up, you're gonna look at it, you're gonna feel it, you're gonna smell it. You... Some little kids are even gonna, like, lick it a little bit. Like, they're gonna, like, really wanna explore this toad, and that's what emotional inquiry is, is a somatic mental experiencing of an emotional experience in your body, and what is it like, and what happens when you welcome it? What happens when you love it? What happens when you resist it? So it's a series of experiments that you're playing with the emotion and, and, uh, observations and, and felt sense of the emotion. And, and that I find to be incredibly, incredibly useful-

   6. LRLenny Rachitsky24:04

      Mm-hmm. Just getting very curious.

   7. JHJoe Hudson24:05

      ... for people. Yeah, yeah. A lot of wonder. Yeah.

   8. LRLenny Rachitsky24:09

      By the way, the, uh, quote you shared about joy being the matriarchy of all the other emotions-

   9. JHJoe Hudson24:15

      Yeah.

   10. LRLenny Rachitsky24:15

       ... uh, I imagine people have said this, but Inside Out too I think is exactly, uh, a representation of what you're talking about, where Joy is actually, she's like the protagonist almost.

   11. JHJoe Hudson24:23

       Yeah.... ah, right.

   12. LRLenny Rachitsky24:24

       I don't know if you've seen it yet.

   13. JHJoe Hudson24:25

       Oh, you mean... Yeah, I think I've heard about this. I haven't watched it. But I think-

   14. LRLenny Rachitsky24:28

       Okay.

   15. JHJoe Hudson24:28

       ... where you think it's all about being happy and you find out-

   16. LRLenny Rachitsky24:31

       Right.

   17. JHJoe Hudson24:31

       ... that you have to accept everything for happiness to really work, kinda deal.

   18. LRLenny Rachitsky24:34

       Exactly. Yeah.

   19. JHJoe Hudson24:35

       Yeah, yeah. I have heard about it.

   20. LRLenny Rachitsky24:36

       Anxiety starts to take over and then things don't go, uh, well.

6. 24:40 – 30:25

   Questioning assumptions and self-perception

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky24:40

   2. JHJoe Hudson24:40

      Yeah.

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky24:40

      Something else that I've noticed listening to a bunch of your conversations. You do these kinda like, uh, lightning round coaching sessions with people and so I listen to a bunch of them. And something that was really interesting to me is that a lot of people come to you and they're like, "Hey, I have this problem. Uh, I'm not do-... I can't do this hard thing I know I need to do," or, "I have impostor syndrome and that's just keeping me from doing the thing I need to do." And you're often like, "No, that's not actually what's going on here. I can see that's not a problem for you. It's really this other thing." Is that super common where people think they need to work on this one thing and it turns out that's not at all, they're actually okay at that in something totally else?

   4. JHJoe Hudson25:12

      I, I would, uh, maybe to put it a little bit differently, they, they're living in a story that describes an old version of themselves and it doesn't... Or they don't see themselves clearly enough to, to be able to see the whole issue and so they're just kind of living with a story that's in the past. So that's a really common thing. So oftentimes, if I do that in a coaching session, typically it's because they're showing me right there that it's not true. You know, so somebody's like, uh, "I'm so scared I can't do anything." I'm like, "You just got in front of 100 people to ask me a question. Clearly, you're not so scared that you can't do anything, so I'm not buying it." Um, I don't do it quite like that. I do it with a lot more love (laughs) than that but... Yeah, so oftentimes I see that people's stories are, are a culprit, like how they describe themselves and, and a great way that you can really see this in folks is that nine out of ten times that you compliment somebody, "I really appreciate this thing about you," they're gonna go, "Ah, nah," or, "Well, my uh..." Or the, "Well, my sister is even more..." Or like that, you know, "If you knew me." Th- they're gonna do some sort of version like that and th- and it basically is, uh, one of the indicators that they can't actually feel who they are. Uh, uh, they would rather, in effect, call you a liar, "Oh, y- you're lying to me or you're wrong," than they would to actually accept the, the experience of being seen in that way. And, and it does a couple things. One of the things it does is it stops people from seeing themselves clearly. The other thing it does is it makes people forever want to be seen and complimented and, and acknowledged and validated because they're never... They, they're getting the food but they can't digest it.

   5. LRLenny Rachitsky26:59

      Do you have any advice other than working with you and you telling them, "Hey, here's what's actually going on," uh-

   6. JHJoe Hudson27:03

      (laughs)

   7. LRLenny Rachitsky27:03

      ... for someone to like, okay, maybe revisit, maybe this isn't actually a problem, to see what's actually going on?

   8. JHJoe Hudson27:08

      So we have, um, uh, a set of five kind of what we think are foundational tools for transformation and w- we do these free work- workshops on them and one of them is, question the assumption, and that's a really great way to have people start to see through their stories. So a- at the beginning, I said, "Nothing the critical voice in your head says is true," and this is how it applies. So typically, there's an assumption that you have to make for the problem to be real. You know, if somebody says to you, for instance, um, if somebody comes to me and says, um, "I'm, I am an asshole to my girlfriend." Like, that's their problem, right? So one, you have to assume that the girlfriend doesn't want you to be an asshole, as an example. Two, you have to assume that you know what being an asshole actually is, right? It's not just what your mom told you an asshole was, like it... You know, three, there's some validation. This is another assumption, is there's some clear thing that says this... In the world everyone's like, "That's an asshole and that's not," rather than what actually happens in the world which is 50% of the people think that this person's an asshole and 50% think they're a hero, right? It's something like that. Also that, uh, that it's... Another assumption there is that the problem is that you're an asshole instead of that you're resisting the fact that you are an asshole and therefore it comes out sideways instead of really clear. So there's so many assumptions in there. If you see through those assumptions, usually the problem starts fading away. It's like, "Oh, okay, what's, what's... What do I mean by asshole exactly? How do I define that?" And I, uh... And the reason I... And it seems like a silly thing, right? When I, I'm using this example of asshole but I remember this moment in my own development. I was, um, I was in Bodega Bay, out of all places, and I'm... This very good friend of mine at the time was like, "Joe, you're an asshole." (laughs) And I was like, "No, I'm not." And he's like, "Why resist it? Just fall in love with the fact that you're an asshole. I mean, just allow yourself to be an asshole for just a minute, just one minute." And I stopped and I could... Like, stopped, and I thought of like... I, I was doing venture capital at the time and I could think of all the things that I had done that somebody would call an asshole and all the ways in which I was unattuned to people and, and I could, "Oh yeah, okay, I can totally see that I'm an asshole." And in that scene and in the... Not only in the scene of it but in... As the shame fell away, "Oh, this is nothing I have to defend. This isn't something that I... Like, I'm a bad person because of. I don't need to be ashamed of it. This is just some actions that I took." And as that faded away, then, and then over the next couple weeks, lo and behold, I became less of an asshole. So it's a strange thing when you, when you really grok that, that it's often shame that holds bad habits in place. And so, is the problem that I'm an asshole or is the problem that I'm ashamed of being an asshole? Is the problem that you're a smoker or is the problem that you're ashamed of being a smoker? And so, so typically, like there's so many assumptions built into everything that we call a problem and if we look through those assumptions, the problems disappear as, in this case, it disappeared for me.

7. 30:25 – 36:57

   The consequences of avoiding emotions

   1. JHJoe Hudson30:25

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky30:26

      Wow. Okay. There's a lot there. It connects to something I, I know you recently talked about which is the emotion we...... wants to avoid is the thing we end up experiencing a lot by trying- ... to avoid it.

   3. JHJoe Hudson30:38

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky30:39

      What's going on there?

   5. JHJoe Hudson30:40

      Okay. (laughs) Yeah. So I, uh... Let's take a... Since I, since I'm... I coach executives, let's do an executive example. So, uh, conflict avoidant executive. I don't want to feel the, um, the out of control-ness that I do when people argue. So I don't want to feel that level of out of control, so I am gonna be conflict avoidant. I'm gonna avoid conflict. Every way that we go to avoid a feeling becomes the way that that e- feeling gets invited towards us. So we all know what it's like to work for a conflict avoidant CEO or boss. People get really fucking upset. Eventually people get really upset that decisions aren't being made. We're da-da-da-da-da. There's all this tension. It's never relieved. We never get... And then, wow, s- sure enough, the conflict avoidant CEO is dealing with a whole organization that's tense and, and, and they feel completely out of control in the fact that they don't- can't do anything about... So that's an example. Or when I was... When I was younger, you know, it was emotional abandonment. I- my dad was an alcoholic and I didn't wanna feel that emotional abandonment again, and so I would get really hard when I felt like people were leaving me. I'd be like, "What the..." Blah-da-da-da-da-da. Which of course made them abandon me quicker. Or I would try to caretake people, which would build resentment, which would make people abandon me. So whatever emotion that you're trying to avoid, you are inviting into your life in exactly the way that you're trying to avoid it.

   6. LRLenny Rachitsky32:14

      What the hell? Why would a... Why does this happen?

   7. JHJoe Hudson32:16

      (laughs) Yeah. That doesn't sound right.

   8. LRLenny Rachitsky32:17

      Who designed this? It just is counterproductive.

   9. JHJoe Hudson32:20

      It, it is counterproductive and it... But the... I think the, the, the really cool thing about it is you can look at any issue that you're having in your life, so you can say, "Oh, like one of the problems that I have in my life is that I am constantly in an argument with my girlfriend or boyfriend," let's say. Okay, so you're constantly in a... What is the thing that you don't wanna feel in that argument? "Oh, I don't wanna feel ashamed." Okay, so you're getting in arguments because you don't wanna feel ashamed, and that's making you feel more ashamed. And okay, so what am I doing at that first time to not feel ashamed? "Oh, I'm defending myself. Oh, and me defending myself is actually the thing that's starting the fight." So you can backward engineer it to, "Oh, I don't wanna feel ashamed, therefore I'm gonna defend myself, which creates a fight which makes me feel more ashamed." So any problem that you're having, you can actually backwards engineer it and see, "Oh, I can solve that problem by just being okay with that feeling."

   10. LRLenny Rachitsky33:18

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JHJoe Hudson33:20

       "God dammit, you didn't take out the, the trash. Oh, that's a shame I don't wanna feel. I'm not gonna defend myself, I'm gonna feel that shame. Oh, uh, oh." Yeah, and then maybe I'm gonna say, "I'm sorry I didn't take out the trash," or I'm gonna say, "I don't feel ashamed, I- I don't wanna take out the trash." You know, but I have to defend myself to get in the fight, and then I'm gonna feel ashamed. So it... You can reverse engineer all your problems this way. It's like, it's such a cool hack, but it, it, you know, it's very hard for some- for somehow or another it's very simple, but very hard for people to utilize.

   12. LRLenny Rachitsky33:53

       This is amazing. So the advice is basically feel the thing and just kinda come to terms with this is the emotion I'm feeling and maybe this... Like in your example, the asshole. Well, maybe, maybe I'm an asshole and just-

   13. JHJoe Hudson34:04

       Yeah. It's to, um... What's required for you to love and accept yourself would be-

   14. LRLenny Rachitsky34:10

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JHJoe Hudson34:11

       ... and love and accept the, the emotion that you're having in the moment instead of resist it. You know, there's that saying, "What we resist persists." It's how do you, how do you fall in love with and stop resisting the reality on the ground? And in doing so, it changes the reality on the ground.

   16. LRLenny Rachitsky34:30

       Okay. But in this argument with s- your supposed girlfriend, say you disagree about her perspective on what's going on. I guess that's not the root issue here. It's like, it's your feeling.

   17. JHJoe Hudson34:39

       Right. Well-

   18. LRLenny Rachitsky34:39

       Right? It's not like her perception.

   19. JHJoe Hudson34:40

       Oh, yeah. "Hey, sweetheart. I really hear you want me to take out the trash and, and I, I... You know, that's not my truth." That's gonna be very different than, you know, defending that shame. The defending the shame is gonna be like, "Wah!" You know? (laughs) "No, I bl- it's not my job to take out the trash." Right? You're, you're... The thing... You're trying not to feel the experience, which is what's gonna do it. So it doesn't really... The response isn't the important thing, it's, it's really where the response comes from. It's so interesting because people are taugh- constantly... This is something we teach in our, in our, um, the connection courses, that it's really not about the conversation, it's about where you're at in the conversation. So for instance, when my friend said to me, "Hey, you're a dick," here's what he didn't do. He was like... He didn't go, "You're a dick. You asshole. Like, you're being an asshole. You're being a dick. Fucking stop it." He was like, "Eh, you're a dick. So what? What's the problem?" He was, he was coming from a place of love for me and so I could not be defended in my response to him. And so it's really where you come from. It's the- emotionally where you come from that's the important part, not, not as much what you say.

   20. LRLenny Rachitsky35:54

       Hmm. Very good.

   21. JHJoe Hudson35:55

       And, and you can see this... The... A perfect example of this is... This happens all the time in my work. So let's say there's a person who has a CEO and they're scared... The person is scared of their CEO. And let's say this is the CMO and they're, "I'm scared of the CEO. I can't say my truth. They're always getting upset. They're gonna yell. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And I'll, and I'll say, "Yeah, there's one person who says it though, right?" The answer's always yes. There's u- that person has, that CEO has one person who they don't yell at, who they listen to, who they, who they'll, they'll, they'll take the objection from, that they don't get angry, uh, with.... it's because there's somebody who doesn't approach them in fear. It's because somebody approaches them a different way, not with judgment but like, "Hey, look. This is what we have to pay attention to." And so it's really about how you're coming at it, n- n- and not what you're saying typically.

   22. LRLenny Rachitsky36:52

       This episode is brought to you by Coda. I use Coda every day to coordinate my

8. 36:57 – 39:42

   Experimenting with self-improvement

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky36:57

      podcasting and newsletter workflows. From collecting questions for guests, to storing all my research, to managing my newsletter content calendar, Coda is my go-to app and has been for years. Coda combines the best of documents, spreadsheets, and apps to help you get more done, and Coda can help your team to stay aligned and ship faster by managing your planning cycle in just one location, set and measure OKRs with full visibility across teams and stakeholders, map dependencies, create progress visualizations, and identify risk areas. You can also access hundreds of pressure tested templates for everything from roadmap strategy to final decision-making frameworks. See for yourself why companies like DoorDash, Figma, and Qualtrics run on Coda. Take advantage of this special limited time offer just for startups. Head over to coda.io/lenny and sign up to get six free months of the team plan. That's coda.io/lenny to sign up and get six months of the team plan. Coda.io/lenny. This is amazing, Joe. Uh, I'm very happy with what advice we've already shared and there's-

   2. JHJoe Hudson38:02

      Okay.

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky38:03

      ... there's more I want to tap into.

   4. JHJoe Hudson38:04

      You, you keep using the word advice, and I just want to-

   5. LRLenny Rachitsky38:07

      Oh.

   6. JHJoe Hudson38:07

      Like so for anybody who's listening, do not take my advice. Do not, do not, do not, do not. Eh, test it. Experiment. Set up an experiment, try it out, see if it's true for you. It's one, like, you know, I just made this shit up. Somebody else could make up something different. It's like, like, you know, Jeff Bezos made up Amazon. We make stuff up, but we're humans. But two is if you, instead of just listen to it as a soundbite, if you actually s- do it and make an experiment out of it, you get to learn. It, like it's in your bones. You get to see what's actually real for you. And, and what's real for you in this moment might not be real for you wha- what's in the next moment. So for instance, like I could give the advice th- that says, "Hey, every... You can't even control your thoughts. You can't even, you can't even decide what thought you are gonna have next is. It's just gonna fucking happen. So you're completely out of control, you... And so it's all a gift. Can you look at life as all a gift?" And that would go, wow, that could be really useful for one person. But the other person, they feel so disempowered that they're like, "I can't even control my own thoughts, man. I, I'm totally trapped." And s- and they might really need, at that moment, to learn that, "Oh, I, I, I have empowerment. I have choice." And that's what they, that's the advice that they need to hear. And so like do the experiment. Find out what's true for you in, in this moment. That, that's my... If there's a, if there's a piece of advice, that's the one I wanna give. (laughs)

   7. LRLenny Rachitsky39:39

      Okay. So let's, let's get, let's share more experiments people can

9. 39:42 – 43:17

   Understanding efficiency and enjoyment

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky39:42

      run.

   2. JHJoe Hudson39:42

      Okay.

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky39:42

      Another is th- this thread that I feel comes up a lot in your work is you're just really big on helping people feel joy. Feels like that's the core of what you're trying to help people is feel more joy. Why is, why is that so important? Why is joy so important, so powerful?

   4. JHJoe Hudson39:57

      So I definitely would, would not want anyone to feel joy. Like I, I wouldn't want to push somebody into or like, "Hey, you should feel joy." Um, but w- what I would say that's, that's like a close cousin to that is that enjoyment is, is like such an important tool for productivity. Enjoyment is such a important tool for living a meaningful life. Enjoy- like so enjoyment is a, like an amazing tool. So as an example, s- uh, let's say you drive a Ferrari. You're not gonna say, "Hey, that's an efficient car." That's a, that, that's a super efficient car. You're gonna say, "No, that's a, that's a fast car." But somehow in our own lives, if we get something done quickly, we're efficient. But that's not efficient. You can go and get something done quickly and then you're so exhausted. What's efficient is if at the end of whatever you did, you feel like you have more energy, like you're stoked, like, "Oh, I can't wait to do this again tomorrow." That, that's efficiency is that you've actually used the least amount of energy to get something done. So if you say, "Oh, I'm gonna figure out how to enjoy what I do 10% more," then you a- and you succeed, you are 10% more efficient. Not only that, usually the quality is gonna get a lot better, too. If you enjoy running, you're probably gonna run more than if you don't enjoy running. (laughs) You know? If you enjoy doing a podcast, you're probably gonna make a better podcast and you're gonna do it for longer if you enjoy doing it. So that, so there's something really, really important about enjoyment because it's not only a measure of efficiency, it also has a strong correlation with higher... In most things, has a strong correlation with how long you're gonna do it, your staying power, the, the quality of what you're gonna do, all of that. So that's one of the reasons that I think enjoyment is, is really great. The other thing is that if you enjoy things, they feel different and it doesn't require that... I think one of the things that people do is they, they, they say this. They say, "I'm, I wanna enjoy my life more, so I'm gonna do less things like take out the trash and I'm gonna do more things like go on vacation." But that's not how enjoyment works and like you can enjoy taking out the trash or you can hate taking out the trash. That's a choice, th- and right now, somebody listening to this as an experiment that they can run is like, "Okay, you're gonna stay listening to this for the next minute. How do you enjoy it 10% more?" And typically what will happen is somebody will take a deeper breath. They'll settle into their body a little bit more.... they'll relax a little bit more, they might physically get more comfortable. Th- there's a thousand things that they might do to just enjoy the experience 10% more. That, and in that, they're becoming more efficient, in that the quality is getting better, in that they're hearing what I'm saying differently. And so that, that, it's just a really powerful tool. What I know the problem to be is that some people will go, "Okay, now I have to enjoy life. I'm gonna, like, disregard all these negative emotions so that I'm in enjoyment," and that doesn't work. It's horrendous. You know, it's, it's just, it's just a recipe for, for shit stew.

10. 43:17 – 45:03

    The power of enjoyment in daily tasks

    1. JHJoe Hudson43:17

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky43:18

       Along these lines, how much of the work is learning to enjoy the thing you're doing more versus finding something that you innately enjoy? Which one's more powerful, I guess? Which do you point people to? Which experiments do you find people should run more?

    3. JHJoe Hudson43:31

       Uh, in our society, typically, it's how to enjoy what you're doing more. Uh, what happens typically is that if you find a way to enjoy the thing that you're doing more, you're more likely to do the things that you enjoy. So it's just like a, it's just a, uh, order of operations thing. As compared to there's people, you know, a lot of the people in my circles because of who I coach and everything, they're billionaires and they have spent hundreds of millions of dollars to try to arrange a life that they enjoy, and it doesn't fucking work. So they (laughs) they actually have more power to make everything that they're doing exactly what they want to do. But it doesn't, that doesn't work, it doesn't... You know, flying the, the jet or buying the island or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah doesn't do it. So whereas if you really learn to enjoy what's in front of you, all of a sudden one thing that happens is that you're not as scared of enjoyment. Like in... You start saying, "Oh, wow, enjoyment makes me really effective and so I'm wanting to do the things that I enjoy," and so you're more likely to do the things that you enjoy instead of having this story, "I have to do X, Y, and Z so that at one point in the future I can do what I enjoy." And so that, it's just an order of operations things. If you learn to do the thing you en- if you learn to enjoy the things that you're doing, you're gonna naturally start doing the things you enjoy. If you only do the things you enjoy, you will not learn how to enjoy what you're doing very well.

11. 45:03 – 46:31

    Innate enjoyment vs. learned enjoyment

    1. JHJoe Hudson45:03

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky45:03

       So you share this tip of how can I enjoy this 10% more? Just like ask yourself-

    3. JHJoe Hudson45:07

       Yeah.

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky45:07

       ... how can I enjoy this 10% more? Is there-

    5. JHJoe Hudson45:09

       This right now.

    6. LRLenny Rachitsky45:09

       ... anything else that you find helpful for helping... Oh, oh, and yeah, right now, how can I enjoy-

    7. JHJoe Hudson45:14

       This right now.

    8. LRLenny Rachitsky45:14

       ... this 10% more right now?

    9. JHJoe Hudson45:14

       So it's not about changing anything, yeah.

    10. LRLenny Rachitsky45:16

        Mm-hmm.

    11. JHJoe Hudson45:17

        In the, in the external world. Yeah.

    12. LRLenny Rachitsky45:19

        Got it. Like, internally, what can I do, what can I change about the way I'm experiencing this?

    13. JHJoe Hudson45:23

        Yeah, just... Or h- I like to ask it as how do you enjoy it 10% more? 'Cause if it's what can I change, then, then there's trying. Trying is usually not more enjoyment. It's actually usually letting go of trying that creates more enjoyment.

    14. LRLenny Rachitsky45:35

        Mm-hmm.

    15. JHJoe Hudson45:35

        So it's a, the phrasing is, it can, can really make or break the question.

    16. LRLenny Rachitsky45:41

        How do I enjoy 10% more?

    17. JHJoe Hudson45:43

        Yeah.

    18. LRLenny Rachitsky45:43

        So say someone's sitting in a boring meeting that's, like, really sucking their soul. Look, they should ask themselves this question. How can I enjoy this 10% more?

    19. JHJoe Hudson45:51

        Yeah. That would... Well, should. They can. They get to. It's a great experiment. (laughs)

    20. LRLenny Rachitsky45:54

        It's an experiment. Okay, perfect.

    21. JHJoe Hudson45:57

        Yeah. The reason I do the should thing is that as soon as you say you should and then you don't, then you can fail. And if you fail, then you're less likely to try it again.

    22. LRLenny Rachitsky46:07

        Hm.

    23. JHJoe Hudson46:08

        That's why the, the, the should just, it, it, it, it ends up usually in stagnation. Should, like, if you, if you, like, think about the way it feels in your body when you say, "I should do something," there's, like, a stagnation. There's a, "Hmm." Whereas if you say something like, "Oh, I wanna do it," or, "Here's an experiment I can do," or, "Here's what I enjoy," there's less stagnation. There's more movement.

12. 46:31 – 50:01

    Authenticity vs. self-improvement

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky46:31

       This touches on something else that you talk a lot about, and we've kind of been circling around this idea of authenticity versus improvement, where you help people realize that you are good as you are, you don't need to necessarily improve. And we've talked a lot about these sorts of things already, but just what else can you share there, just how to help people learn this?

    2. JHJoe Hudson46:49

       Yeah. I mean, my, my favorite metaphor on this one is like, at what time in the journey of an oak tree are... is it perfect? Is it, like, when it's an acorn, when it's a sprout, when it's 20 years old, 40 years old, 150 years old, 200 years old, depending on the oak tree. Like when, uh, okay, now I'm perfect. Is... The idea is ridiculous. So it's a similar thing for us. So the idea that I need to improve myself, it, it, it, it really disturbs the natural process that's at hand, which is we evolve. We as human beings evolve. And if it's like, "Oh, I'm evolving and I can enjoy it and, and I'm acting from my authenticity," then that's a very... That has a lot of alacrity. That moves quick. If it's, "I need to improve. There's something wrong with me. I need to improve. I should do it," that all goes really fucking slow, right? 'Cause it, there's a lot of emotional stagnation in that. There's a lot of should, shame. There's a lot of stagnation in that, and so you don't actually get that natural flow of life. And so the Taoists talk about this as kind of like a river always finds its way. It doesn't need... Like, it just always goes in that direction. And so that's... We are naturally evolving. Like, that is our nature. And then to put a whole bunch of shoulds and shit (laughs) in the way just slows the process down. The other thing about authenticity that I think is really important to... Is that if your success... If you are one of the few people, I'd say 10, 15% who can say, "I should be this way, this way, and this way," and then you do it, which is... Very few people can actually do that. What most people do is they say, "I should do this, should do that, should do that," and then a decade later, they're still saying they should do the same things. But let's say you're one of those really successful people, then you have a life for not you.... then you have a life of who you think you should be, not for who you actually are. And so if you move from authenticity, naturally certain things aren't gonna work, certain things are gonna work, certain people are gonna work, certain people aren't gonna work, certain jobs are gonna work, certain... But the ones that you end up with over time are gonna be the ones that are right for you, not right for who you think you should be, right? So if you sh-... Uh, the, the most obvious of this is you meet a, a, a, a, a woman, and you're like, "Oh, this is how I should be for them to love me," and you're, you, you just do it. You just do everything that you think you should do to... And then you get married, and then they love, not you. They love who you think you should be. They l- (laughs) They don't love who you are. And so, well, what, w- w- what, what, what kind of marriage is that? As opposed to, "This is who I am, and I'm gonna be as genuine. I'm gonna show you all my parts. I'm gonna, like, be as genuine as I can with you," then if, if you, if you do get married, you're married to the right person. You're married to the person who actually sees all that and loves that and wants that.

13. 50:01 – 55:49

    Embracing emotional experiences

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky50:01

       How do you hold that idea with, "I also wanna get better. I wanna, you know, develop myself. I wanna feel my emotions more," those sorts of things?

    2. JHJoe Hudson50:09

       I love the "I want to." Uh, the "better" part is kind of just, uh, gets a li- a little bit in the way.

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky50:14

       Mm-hmm.

    4. JHJoe Hudson50:14

       So, right, yeah. We all want to... Like, a little kid wants to run faster, but... And they might want to get... Be a better runner. But the, the part that they miss, the reason that they develop so fucking quickly is because they don't think they're gonna be a better person if they run faster. It's the, it's the idea is like, yeah, you have this natural want. That want is the thing that moves evolution. Like, a plant is like, "Oh, there's sun. I want to move in that direction," as compared to, like, "I should." Both of them are human concepts, but the, but the want is like... It's, it's the thing that... It's, uh, what's... Allows us to know that's our evolutionary path. "Oh, I have this want to be closer to people. Oh, I have this want for great sex. Oh, I w- I have this want for being able to, uh, have a business that supports me." These are great wants, and they, they kinda show where, where the growth l- is occurring or wants to occur. It's like, that's our natural evolution. It's great. Wha- what, what makes it need to be better? What me- what... "I wanna be better." It just slows it down instead of... It's like saying that what I am is broken and therefore the whole thing slows down. So I, I... We try to word everything as... You know, more in the experimental framework, but also, we try to word everything as like self-awareness, self-experimentation, self-discovery, instead of self-improvement. Because if you understand the problem, then the problem goes away. So just, just explore it. Like, just understand it, as opposed to making a list of things that you should do to get better that you will eventually fail, and then you'll just be stuck in this should loop where you beat yourself up and where most people hang out a lot.

    5. LRLenny Rachitsky52:09

       So the experiment here that I'm taking away is think more about your want versus the should and the things you, you think you need.

    6. JHJoe Hudson52:18

       Yeah.

    7. LRLenny Rachitsky52:19

       Right? Is... Okay.

    8. JHJoe Hudson52:20

       Yeah. 'Cause typically, when you say, "I wanna improve," it means... The, the subtext in that is, "Once I do X, Y, and Z, then I'm lovable. Once I do X, Y, and Z, then I'm okay. Once I do X, Y, and Z, I'll be worthy. Once I do X, Y, and Z, I'll be enlightened," whatever the fuck the thing is. And it's... But that's just not how it works. You know, what works is the person who loves themselves has loving relationships. It's not the person who's done X, Y, and Z so that they can be lovable has loving relationships. The people who do X, Y, and Z so they can be lovable have relationships where people are critical and constantly trying to k- (laughs) telling them that they have to be better.

    9. LRLenny Rachitsky53:01

       Coming back, you just said this interesting quote that you also shared at the beginning, this idea of once we understand the problem, it goes away.

    10. JHJoe Hudson53:07

        Yeah.

    11. LRLenny Rachitsky53:07

        Let's make sure people understand what that means. Is it related to this idea of once you feel like, "I'm an asshole," okay, then like, "Oh, okay," and then it starts to kind of fade away? Is that, is that the core of it?

    12. JHJoe Hudson53:15

        I just mean it practically. You know, uh, it was like, can you really, fully understand a problem if you don't understand the solution to it? I don't... Right? So if... There's a principle, and I can't remember the name of it. Like, it's Strickland principle or something. But it's something that you... That the CFO that I used to work with said. Um, he would say like, "Problems get solved if you spend time on them." Like, if you just give attention, enough attention to a problem, the problems will solve. Like, that's, that's the way it works. In business, an unsolvable problem, obviously. That's, it's not gonna work that way. But the reason that that works is because the more you spend time on a problem, the more you understand it. And a- another one, like, love him or hate him, you know, there... One of the m- One of the things that Elon Musk has said that I, I find... That I found very valuable in my l- time is that if you really wanna interview somebody and they claim that they've done something, you ask them s- like, kinda six levels down. "So you improved sales. How did you do that exactly?" "Well, we improved the pipeline." "Okay. How'd you do that exactly?" "Oh. Well, we made the pipeline more measurable by having things that could be re-" "Okay, yeah. And so how did you know... What, what were the seven stages of the pipeline and what made you pick them?" You go six levels down, and you can really understand if somebody was the person who solved the problem or if they're the person who is claiming that they solved the problem. So it's the same thing. It's the same thing. It's... If we just explore a problem enough, the solution is apparent. If we understand the problem enough, the solution is apparent. And so typically, if we come to a problem with a, um, uh, a kid's mind and wonder...... if we come to it, like, "What, what could I learn here? What's exciting? What, what are the experiments I can run?" Then typically, that's the most efficient way, enjoyable way to solve a problem. As compared to, "I have to get to this problem by the so low at this time, and we're gonna do it this way," and da, da, da. Like, usually that doesn't work, and it... You know, I could geek out on why that lets democracies (laughs) win over autocracies, because they're far more experimental by nature and it's not one person saying how things are going, but it... Just generally, the, just we're more efficient when we're exploring. And so, we're more efficient when we're exploring ourselves and understanding ourselves and trying to improve ourselves.

    13. LRLenny Rachitsky55:46

        There's a couple of more experiments I wanna help people try

14. 55:49 – 1:02:53

    How understanding your emotions helps you make better decisions

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky55:49

       to run. One is, you have some really good advice around decision-making and how emotions and getting better at understanding and working with your emotions helps you make better decisions. Can you talk about that?

    2. JHJoe Hudson55:59

       That's similar to what I said before, which is, I- if you learn to fall in love with the emotional experiences, then you have more solution sets. So let's say I want to, I want to have... Like all human beings, I wanna be a part of a great team. There's no, no, nobody has ever, like, raised their hand and said, "I, I'd like to be a part of a shitty team." And yet, grand majority of people at their work right now have shitty teams or not A teams, not great teams, even though nobody wants that. If one of the things you're unwilling to feel is that ki- that conflict, that tension, s- as we talked about, f- if you're conflict avoidant, you're, you're not gonna be able to make an A team, because there's... Nothing that is alive doesn't require tension. A cell requires tension. Breathing requires tension. Playing pickleball requires tension. A good team requires tension. So if you're, if you're gonna avoid that experience, you're not gonna be, as easily, if at all, be able to create a, an A-quality team. So, to be able to exp- to be able to look forward to any emotional experience creates more and more solution sets for us, more and more option- optionality. So i- in creating a great team, for instance, you, you need to be good with people hating you. You need to be good with drawing boundaries and having people upset. You need to be able to have high expectations, even if somebody's dis- you have to be okay with somebody being disappointed with themselves. You have to be okay dis- being disappointed with yourself. All these emotional experiences have to, have to be available to you if you're gonna find the solutions to make an A-quality team. And so, the more you can fall in love with each emotional experience, the more you have and then the clearer the decision-making gets. So that's one thing for making great decisions. The other one that's, I find, really, really useful and very hard to execute on till you really understand it is creating a set of principles to live by. So, we all have a set of principles to live by, that we're, we're doing it, right? So, for a lot of people, those principles are, um, you know, uh, "What do I have to do to get likes on Facebook?" (laughs) "What do I have to do to..." Like, "I'm gonna do whatever it, uh, I'm gonna make a decision based on getting likes on Facebook. I'm gonna make decisions based on whatever it is." Um, it's pretending that I wanna get wealthier, trying to get wealthier. There's a series of things. But if you really take a look at what it is you're making your decisions on and then really think about, "Well, what would be the five or six things that if I made decisions with these principles, I'm guaranteed success?" And then experiment with them and then refine those principl- principles and then experiment with them. And then there'll be these moments where you're, you don't wanna do it, but those are your principles, so you're gonna go and do it. So as an example for this, um, one of the, one of the principles that I live by is embrace intensity. So it's not create intensity, it's embrace intensity. It means that right now any moment in my body, for instance, there's gonna be, uh, a sensation that's more intense. How do I welcome that sensation? At any moment in running my business, there's gonna be something that we don't w- wanna talk about. How do I, how do we lean in and talk about that? I don't, you know... And so we start all of our meetings with, uh, "What are you scared to say?" Uh, in our business. "What are you scared to say?" Is one of, not all of our meetings, but some of our meetings are started with, "What, what are you scared to say?" Because we wanna embrace that intensity because we know that if we lean into the thing that we're trying to avoid, our life is gonna get better, our business is gonna get better. And so, if you can, uh, make, li- if you can see what those principles are for you and then run experiments to see if they work and then refine them every once in a while. And so because of that, because of that embrace intensity, if somebody comes to me and says, "You're fucking up this business. You're doing it all wrong," I don't have to think about what I'm gonna do. I'm like, "Oh, cool. Tell me what I'm missing." It's gonna, it's gonna be immediate because I, I live this way. Whether... I don't, maybe I don't wanna hear it. Maybe I'm like, "I'm having a bad day." Whatever it is. Maybe I'll say, "Hey, I wanna hear you. Give me... I'm not, I'm not able to. Give me, you know, a day and I'll come back to you." But all of a sudden my decisions get made automatically if I live by a set of principles. And that, uh, very effective, I find very effective living by a set of principles.

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky1:00:51

       For someone that wants to create their own set of principles, is there a guide you have? Is there any advice for how to actually go about starting this list, putting it together?

    4. JHJoe Hudson1:00:58

       We have a decisions course which is al- like, a large part of it is about how to do that.

    5. LRLenny Rachitsky1:01:03

       Awesome.

    6. JHJoe Hudson1:01:03

       The...It's a difficult one to explain 'cause there's a lot of nuance in it. Just as a for instance, one of the nuances is, uh, defining the principles not just by what it is but what it isn't, is a really significant, very minor thing, but it ends up being incredibly major. But if you're gonna do your set of principles and you wanna do them on your own, the main thing I would say is keep it to five. I wouldn't even do six. I don't do six. But, uh, keep it to five. And, and I would test each one of them for, like, five days. So make your principle and then see if it works for you, for like five days. And then do the, you know, and keep on experimenting till you find five. And when you look at those five and you say, "If I do that, if I live by those principles, I am just almost 100, if not 100% confident that that's gonna create the life I want if I live by those principles," then you have a really good start. And, and make 'em simple. Yeah, like mine, mine are things like embrace intensity, or connection first, or everything's an iteration. All these, the things that I... If, as soon as I live by them, things work. Company works.

    7. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:20

       Amazing. And we'll point folks to that course if they wanna take it themselves.

    8. JHJoe Hudson1:02:24

       Cool.

    9. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:24

       Uh, so...

    10. JHJoe Hudson1:02:24

        It's only, it's only once a year so it's a, it's a-

    11. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:27

        Oh, wow.

    12. JHJoe Hudson1:02:27

        ... rare one.

    13. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:27

        When is the next one?

    14. JHJoe Hudson1:02:29

        Yeah, yeah. January.

    15. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:30

        Okay.

    16. JHJoe Hudson1:02:30

        Yeah.

    17. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:30

        Not too far away for folks who wanna wait.

    18. JHJoe Hudson1:02:32

        Not too far.

    19. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:32

        So, uh, again, the two pieces of advice you shared, and that's, uh, experiments that we can run to help-

    20. JHJoe Hudson1:02:38

        Yeah.

    21. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:38

        ... become better decision makers. One is create a list of life principles, and there's a course that we'll point people to, to take that.

    22. JHJoe Hudson1:02:43

        Yeah.

    23. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:44

        The other is the thing you keep coming back to over and over and over, this idea of falling in love with your emotions, of-

    24. JHJoe Hudson1:02:49

        Yeah.

    25. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:49

        ... embracing your emotions, welcoming your emotions.

    26. JHJoe Hudson1:02:52

        Yeah.

15. 1:02:53 – 1:10:40

    Creating effective teams and meetings

    1. JHJoe Hudson1:02:53

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:53

       There's also, I know you do a lot of work with teams. I imagine there's very similar advice for how to help your team be more effective. Principles, I imagine, is a part of it, falling in love ?

    3. JHJoe Hudson1:03:01

       We've run principles for teams, yeah. Yeah. That's one of them. Uh, teams being more effective, that... We have a lot of... (laughs) I mean, I think I have, like... At this point, I have 12 things that I'll go into a company and, and do with a company. So, so typically, uh, the way I d- I like to do it is I will go in and I will talk to some p- Like, I'll talk to the leader typically, and they'll say, "This is what I want." And then I w- I really want to assess. Like, typically, if the person who, um, is cr- you know, a big part of creating the problem has a hard time seeing the way through the problem, or they, th- it wouldn't have been created generally. And we all, we, this is not demeaning any leader, we all have these issues. So usually, what I like to do is I like to go in and I like to s- the, talk to three or four people, see what, you know, their perspective, not just the leader's perspective, and then I like to sit in on a meeting or two and just see actually what the dynamic is. And one of the, one of the things I like to say about how to change a company is that the atomic structure of a company is the meetings and the decisions. So, it's, uh, particularly true in Silicon Valley, um, but it's really true in all businesses that all we are as a company is a, a group of people's relationships and ideas. That's it. Like, especially like Amazon, like what? You got a couple buildings and some servers. There's not, (laughs) you know, there's like not a lot of hardware there and they wouldn't be useful without the people anyways. Anybody, uh, whether you're running a farm or a shoe factory or it's g- anybody successful is gonna tell you it's all about the people. And so, the atomic structure is, what are our meetings like and what, what are, how do we make decisions? And so, I'll just really pay attention to a meeting. And one of the things we do is we talk about what we call five star meetings, which is, how do you make every meeting enjoyable? Literally, like, how is it that everybody when they walk out of a meeting they're like, "Ah, fuck, I loved it. That was great." Uh, as it turns out, we've all been in meetings that are, like, hard as shit, and we've walked out and gone, "Oh, those were great meetings." And we've all been in meetings where, like, nothing happens and we're like, "Oh God, fuck, another one of the, like, just drive a nail through my head. I don't wanna sit there." So, so, what, what's required to make every one of your meetings five stars? And if you do that, that w- that's one of the things we'll do inside of a company is, like, work with them to figure that out. If you do that, every single problem with your company will come to the surface. Every single one of them. I had 10 five star meetings, but these two meetings sucked. That tells me exactly where we need to focus as a company. That tells me exactly where to look for the problem that's happening. And so, it's like this, and it's the same thing with decisions. If you really start unpacking how the decisions are made, where people are frustrated in the decision-making process, you're gonna find exactly the problems in the company. An example of this, I was wo- working with a, um, uh, a friend and he's a, he's a content person and he, and we were, we were just talking about, uh, "How do you make every one of your meetings a five star meeting?" And he's like, "Okay, great." And ? He's like, "Yeah, I'm never gonna do this." I was like, "Really? Tell me why." He's, "My YouTube meetings fucking suck." You know, he, that's not where he makes most of his money and, but he's like, "Those YouTube meetings suck. They're never gonna get better." And luckily, there was a couple other people around at the time and everyone's like, "No, like, I love my YouTube meetings. What do you mean? Like, how could this not work for you?" And, and so he, he noticed, like, oh, I, like, the team d- didn't, the, the content, none of it was working for him, none of it was him. He was just like, "Ugh." And so, he changed it. He was like, "Okay, I'm gonna commit to that. I'm gonna see what it's like for me to just say every one of my YouTube meetings have to be something that's super enjoyable to me."And when he did it, like his YouTube numbers went off the charts in like a very short period of time. It's just like, it's just that common. Like, wherever the meeting is that sucks, it means there's something else that's a problem that needs to be worked on. So that's, that's typically how. So I can just look at, usually sit in any team meeting and see at least three or four of the major problems that are happening in the company.

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky1:07:29

       Such a cool way of thinking about where to focus decision-making meetings, and I love that this story comes back to something you shared earlier with, the more you enjoy something, the more, uh, joy there is, the better it's gonna go anyway. And so the more you can find those moments and make things enjoyable, the better over time.

    5. JHJoe Hudson1:07:45

       You have to... And the other cool thing is like most of the executives or the CEOs that I've worked with, when they get to a point and it usually takes them like, we always have the goal of a month. It usually takes two months to make sure every one of their meetings is five-star meetings. And once they've done that, then it's like, how do you make sure all of your teams have five-star meetings? But if you... Usually it's like within two months and they, they usually have half the amount of meetings at the end of it. Half the amount of meetings in their companies are more effective. It's, it's an incredible tool.

    6. LRLenny Rachitsky1:08:17

       Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I could see why people enjoy that, uh, fewer meetings as well.

    7. JHJoe Hudson1:08:22

       (laughs)

    8. LRLenny Rachitsky1:08:22

       Is there anything more along those lines before we start to close out our conversation, either around teams or decision-making?

    9. JHJoe Hudson1:08:30

       I'll say for anybody who's a, uh, you know, running a team, um, Harvard's got a couple of these, but we used to do these tiny pulses. As a VC, like one of, one of the strategies that was really effective that I saw very few VCs doing was, I would want these like pulse, I would like read the pulse of teams by, with these like short surveys and stuff. And, and it was the most effective way of not very happy, didn't want to come to work on Monday. They weren't gonna make their numbers, like the likelihood of them making their numbers is like going down. So there was this interesting thing that just about how, you know, Drecker I think said it first and then, um, the Virgin guy, uh-

    10. LRLenny Rachitsky1:09:15

        Branson.

    11. JHJoe Hudson1:09:16

        ... Branson said it. He's like, "Culture eats strategy for breakfast," or some such. But if that's true, then it's measurable and it can be a leading indicator. And it, it absolutely is. Like if you really, if you really pay attention to the culture on a team-by-team basis, it's an amazing, very effective way to drive results, but also a very effective way to, to know when bad results are coming. Yeah, and what's, what's interesting to me is most people feel like they, they can't control the culture. Like most people feel like, most people I notice they feel like, you know, "I'm..." It's more likely for me to hear from a CEO, "Goddammit, like everybody agrees when I get out of the table, when I get off the table, everyone's like, 'Yeah, we're gonna do it,' and then they don't do it. Why aren't they fucking doing it?" is more... Is, I'm gonna hear that more often than I'm gonna hear a CEO say, "Oh wow, I, you know, I really noticed that the way the email system was working in our company, we were disempowering people by not requiring an action after every..." You know, like, I'm gonna hear more complaints about why shit isn't working than I'm gonna hear about st- strategies, like very gentle, simple strategies to, to change the culture. And so it's an amazing thing to me that it's, it's so powerful and yet people feel so out of control with it.

16. 1:10:40 – 1:15:36

    Gratitude practice for personal growth

    1. JHJoe Hudson1:10:40

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky1:10:40

       To give people something they can do, say today or tomorrow to work on a lot of these things we've been talking about, is there just like one thing you recommend that basically everyone should try to experiment with in the next say couple days or weeks just to, uh, help them be better and more successful and happier?

    3. JHJoe Hudson1:11:00

       So I would do, uh, seven minutes, not, no less than seven minutes. You can do more than seven minutes, but seven minutes of gratitude with another person every day. But it can't be, "I'm grateful for this, I'm grateful for this, I'm grateful for this." It has to be feeling the gratitude and then seeing what comes out of your mouth when you're coming from the felt sense of gratitude and doing it back and forth. And so you're savoring the grati- the experience of gratitude, and you're going back and forth with another human being. So call mom, dad, sister, brother, business partner, friend, and every day just express gratitude back and forth for seven minutes coming from the feeling, not from the, not from the thought. And if you have a full body sensation of gratitude and you experience that for seven minutes a day, it, it'll change your life dramatically really quickly. Really, really quickly.

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky1:12:02

       Wow. I already feel it. And the practice is you are expressing gratitude to the person you're with?

    5. JHJoe Hudson1:12:09

       It can be gratitude for anything in your life.

    6. LRLenny Rachitsky1:12:11

       Okay.

    7. JHJoe Hudson1:12:11

       As a matter of fact, uh, I would say do it for a couple weeks and then do it on the places where you feel lack. That's like the, that's where the superpower comes in. So, you know, I was, in my own personal life, I was, uh, m- meditating for... Like, I spent like seven, eight hours a day meditating for like years.

    8. LRLenny Rachitsky1:12:31

       That's a lot.

    9. JHJoe Hudson1:12:31

       (laughs) And-

    10. LRLenny Rachitsky1:12:31

        That's a lot of years.

    11. JHJoe Hudson1:12:31

        ... and so y- what, you can imagine I didn't have a lot of money, so I was like, I, I was... So the way, um, the joke I used to make is I would meditate and worry about money most of my day. And, uh, I mean, truth to it. It's funny, but it's truth. And, um, and one day I was like thinking about money and thinking, I was driving in my car, and I was thinking about this billionaire I knew, and I was thinking about how I didn't have enough. And then I thought, "Oh, this billionaire doesn't think they have enough either. I know him well enough." I'm like, "Oh, I'm, I have the experience of a billionaire right now."... that was my, I was like, "Damn, (stuttering) he's probably driving in a car somewhere thinking he doesn't have enough, and I'm driving in a car somewhere thinking I don't have enough. This is great. Like, I'm a billionaire." And, um, and it tickled me. The idea tickled me. And then I was like, "Well, what, what, what happens if I start focusing on everything I do have instead of focusing on what I don't have," which is where the gratitude practice came from. And so my wife and I would sit every day and just be grateful for all the physical stuff that we had. You know, we were living in a hovel. We were living 15-year-old year cars. We were, like, we had no money. We, I was in debt. I was in like a $40,000 in credit card debt or some crazy shit. And, uh, and we just did it. And literally, what was it, three months later, my credit card was, debt was gone. Six months later, I had $60,000 in the bank. Um, I, I, I, like, uh, l- entire life changed because I no longer defined myself by somebody who didn't have, I defined myself as somebody who did have. And so all of a sudden, I could look out the window and it wasn't, "Oh shit, I can't have that. I can't have that. I can't have that." I'd look out the window and I'd say, "Somebody made money on that. Somebody made money on that." Every fucking thing I looked at, somebody made money on. This, uh, 20 people, 20 companies made money on the fucking lamppost. The person who installed it, the energy company, the rubber company, like there's just, holy crap, it's all over the place. And then in that definition, all of a sudden, it became really clear, oh. And so it doesn't matter if the thing that you feel like you lack is time, or the thing that you feel like you lack is love, or the thing that you feel like you lack is money, if you can really do a gratitude practice on the thing that you lack, that's, th- th- there's a superpower in that one. It changes everything.

    12. LRLenny Rachitsky1:14:57

        Do you still do this?

    13. JHJoe Hudson1:14:59

        Uh, I, I do gratitude, yes. Do I do gratitude on stuff I lack? I don't ha- really have an experience of lack. That's not really-

    14. LRLenny Rachitsky1:15:07

        But you still, you still do this gratitude, uh, seven minutes-

    15. JHJoe Hudson1:15:09

        Of course. Yes. Eh, but like-

    16. LRLenny Rachitsky1:15:10

        ... someone. Wow.

    17. JHJoe Hudson1:15:10

        ... that, that's like asking if I s- still have sex. (laughs) Like, why would I give that up? It feels great. (laughs)

    18. LRLenny Rachitsky1:15:16

        Okay, so just to be clear, uh, you find someone seven minutes every morning probably, think about things you're grateful for and share back. Focus not on-

    19. JHJoe Hudson1:15:23

        Right.

    20. LRLenny Rachitsky1:15:23

        ... your intellectual thing you're grateful for, but just like what's coming out of your emotional body.

    21. JHJoe Hudson1:15:28

        Yeah, feel the gratitude, let the gra-

    22. LRLenny Rachitsky1:15:30

        Feel the gratitude.

    23. JHJoe Hudson1:15:30

        Let the feeling of gratitude speak rather than your mind.

    24. LRLenny Rachitsky1:15:33

        Wow. Yeah. Joe, I'm-

    25. JHJoe Hudson1:15:35

        So that

17. 1:15:36 – 1:17:27

    Conclusion and final thoughts

    1. JHJoe Hudson1:15:36

       you get the felt sense of it.

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky1:15:37

       Sorry. Joe, I'm incredibly grateful for you.

    3. JHJoe Hudson1:15:40

       Ah.

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky1:15:40

       I really appreciate you sharing, uh, so many experiments for people to run. I think this is gonna make a real impact on a lot of people's lives. Two final questions. Where can folks find your courses? I know you have a podcast. Where can folks find the stuff that you do online? And then, how can listeners be useful to you?

    5. JHJoe Hudson1:15:55

       First one, eh, uh, Art of Accomplishment, uh, the podcast. It's Art of Accomplishment with Brett Kessler and Joe Hudson, I think. And then Art of Accomplishment, uh, the website will show you where all the courses are. It'll give you a whole bunch of experiments you can run. There's all sorts of like really great information there. The other thing is, uh, that we just mentioned also is just the, we really want you to make sure, we really wanna make sure that you think that the courses are for you, that the courses are, the way we do courses is that it's a very felt experience thing. It's not intellectual at all. It's, uh, really in your body. And what the way we like doing it is that you bring real problems that you're having and you use the tools that we teach you for the... And the foundational course for that is called the Connection Course. So if you wanna get into it, go to the Connection Course to find out if it's right for you. If you're not, al- already know that it's right for you, do, we do these little hour and a half free workshops and then it'll give you a taste of what it is that we do, 'cause it's unlike anything that's going on out there, that it's, it's, uh, people do it and they're like, "What the hell was that?" It's just a completely different thing. It's not like learning in the normal way. You literally sit down with another person and run experiments face-to-face with how you're being in the moment. And so you learn all this stuff through direct experimentation. And so if you find out it's right for you, you can do it through these workshops. And I'm sure there'll be a place where they can find out where, where to go for that.

Episode duration: 1:18:47