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How to build deeper, more robust relationships | Carole Robin (Stanford professor, “Touchy Feely”)

Carole Robin spent over 20 years teaching the Stanford Graduate School of Business course Interpersonal Dynamics, affectionately known as “Touchy Feely.” After leaving Stanford, she founded a nonprofit called Leaders in Tech, which applies the Touchy Feely principles to help Silicon Valley executives build their leadership and interpersonal skills. Carole co-authored the popular book Connect: Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends, and Colleagues, which shares key insights from her decades of teaching these courses. In our conversation, we discuss: • The benefits of building robust relationships, in life and work • The 15% rule, and how it will help you build better relationships • The power of vulnerability • Examples of how to practice vulnerability • Why mental models you build early in life hold you back later • The “three realities” and “the net” • The art of inquiry • Practical tips for avoiding defensiveness when getting feedback • The impact of long Covid on Carole’s life — Brought to you by: • Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments: https://www.geteppo.com/ • CommandBar—AI-powered user assistance for modern products and impatient users: https://www.commandbar.com/lenny • The a16z Podcast—Featuring conversations with the founders and technologists shaping our future: https://link.chtbl.com/qLhgyi65 Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/build-robust-relationships-carole-robin Where to find Carole Robin: • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carole-robin/ • Email: carolerobinllc@gmail.com Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Carole’s background (05:17) The importance of building robust relationships (10:20) The “Touchy Feely” course at Stanford (13:29) An example of the in-class experience (17:19) Leaders in Tech: developing interpersonal competence (21:36) Progressive disclosure and the 15% rule (24:28) Appropriate disclosure (26:52) The power of vulnerability (34:57) Admitting mistakes and sharing feelings (37:08) Understanding mental models (42:57) The “three realities” framework (53:52) The power of feedback and personal change (58:47) The art of inquiry (01:03:27) How to get better at giving feedback (01:07:47) Exercises and continued learning (01:10:49) “Advice hinders relationships” (01:16:49) Failure corner: AFOG (01:20:30) Takeaways (01:21:51) Lessons from long Covid Referenced: • How to Build Better Relationships: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/how-build-better-relationships • Connect: Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends, and Colleagues: https://www.amazon.com/Connect-Building-Exceptional-Relationships-Colleagues-ebook/dp/B0894279WZ • Leaders in Tech: https://leadersintech.org/ • Leaders in Tech Fellows: https://leadersintech.org/learnaboutfellows • Steve Jobs: https://www.forbes.com/profile/steve-jobs/ • Sheryl Sandberg on X: https://twitter.com/sherylsandberg • Ursula Burns: https://www.forbes.com/profile/ursula-burns/ • Application for Leaders in Tech: https://leadersintech.org/programs-and-applications • Vygotsky’s Zone of Proximal Development and Scaffolding Theory: https://www.simplypsychology.org/zone-of-proximal-development.html • The Best Leaders Aren’t Afraid to Be Vulnerable: https://hbr.org/2022/07/the-best-leaders-arent-afraid-of-being-vulnerable • The Surprising Benefits of Admitting Mistakes: 5 Ways to Build Intellectual Humility: https://www.forbes.com/sites/tracybrower/2021/12/29/the-surprising-benefits-of-admitting-mistakes-5-ways-to-build-intellectual-humility/ • How to Build Conflict Skills—The Pinch/Crunch Model: https://www.forbes.com/sites/hannahart/2023/12/15/how-to-build-conflict-skills-the-pinchcrunch-model/ • Slides mentioned (The Three Realities Framework | The 15% Rule | Feedback Guidelines): https://www.notion.so/pen-name/Carole-Robin-on-Lenny-s-Podcast-dc7159208e4242428f4b11ebc92285eb • Mindset: The New Psychology of Success: https://www.amazon.com/Mindset-Psychology-Carol-S-Dweck/dp/0345472322 • Management Time: Who’s Got the Monkey?: https://hbr.org/1999/11/management-time-whos-got-the-monkey • Long COVID: major findings, mechanisms and recommendations: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00846-2 • Leadership, acceptance, and self-management: my journey with long COVID: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/leadership-acceptance-self-management-my-journey-long-carole-robin/ Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com. Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Lenny RachitskyhostCarole Robinguest
Apr 24, 20241h 26mWatch on YouTube ↗

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Stanford’s ‘Touchy Feely’ Professor Reveals Formula For Exceptional Relationships

  1. Carole Robin, longtime Stanford GSB ‘Touchy Feely’ professor and co-author of *Connect*, explains how interpersonal skills underpin both personal fulfillment and effective leadership. She describes relationships along a continuum from shallow contact to “exceptional,” and outlines the specific skills that move people along that spectrum. Core ideas include progressive self-disclosure, appropriate vulnerability, the “three realities” and net metaphor, and a practical formula for giving feedback that strengthens rather than damages relationships. Throughout, she argues that anyone can learn these skills, update limiting mental models, and transform how they lead, collaborate, and connect—at work and at home.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

Move relationships along a continuum through learnable skills, not personality.

Robin frames relationships from “contact with no connection” to “exceptional,” and emphasizes that you don’t need every relationship to be exceptional—but the same underlying skills (self-awareness, disclosure, feedback, conflict resolution) can reliably move any relationship from dysfunctional toward robust and functional.

Use the 15% rule to practice appropriate vulnerability and disclosure.

Everyone has a comfort zone, a danger zone, and a learning zone in between; Robin recommends disclosing about 15% more than feels comfortable to stretch into that learning zone without freaking yourself or others out, then letting that become the new comfort zone.

Stay on your side of the net: separate behavior from motives.

In any interaction there are three realities—your intent, your behavior, and the other person’s impact. You only directly know your intent and your behavior; assuming you know their motives (“you don’t care,” “you’re insensitive”) is “jumping the net” and almost always triggers defensiveness.

Give feedback using a behavior–feeling–impact formula, not accusations.

Effective interpersonal feedback sounds like: “When you do [specific behavior], I feel [real feeling word], and I’m telling you this because [desired outcome].” This keeps you on your side of the net, focuses on observable behavior, and invites joint problem-solving instead of blame.

Recognize anger as a secondary, distancing emotion and look underneath it.

Robin stresses that anger often masks fear or hurt, which are connecting emotions; leaders who can name and appropriately share those underlying feelings (“I’m scared we’re the only ones worried about this”) inspire more trust and engagement than those who simply express anger.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

People do business with people—not ideas, not products, not machines.

Carole Robin

A willingness to be appropriately vulnerable makes you more, not less, influential as a leader.

Carole Robin

Anger is a distancing emotion; underneath it is usually fear or hurt, which are connecting emotions.

Carole Robin

We don’t understand that we are only privy to two out of the three realities in any interaction.

Carole Robin

We’re all works in progress, which means every relationship in your life is a work in progress.

Carole Robin

The continuum from contact to exceptional relationships and why they matterProgressive disclosure, the 15% rule, and appropriate vulnerability in leadershipThe three realities (intent, behavior, impact) and the “net” metaphorHow to give and receive interpersonal feedback that builds, not harms, relationshipsMental models formed early in life and how they limit (or can be updated)The art of inquiry, avoiding “why” questions, and using feelings productivelyRepairing ruptures, resolving conflict, and the six characteristics of exceptional relationships

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