#1 NARCISSISM Expert: Are You Dealing With A Narcissist!? Watch Out For THESE SIGNS! w/ Dr. Ramani

1. 0:00 – 3:50

   Intro

   1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula0:00

      We let toxic people in so close. A lot of the work is the fine art of discernment. And everyone talks about wellness, wellness, wellness. Drink the right juice, drink the right tea, eat the right kale, do the right workout. I'm like, "People, I get it. You do you, but can we bring that kind of discerning awareness to people?" The leading expert on narcissists, clinical psychologist and best-selling author, Dr. Ramani. Chemistry and connection are really dangerous words to me because they can be trauma bonded words. The hack I have for figuring out whether or not someone's in a trauma bonded relationship, I'll say, "Tell me why you love them." And do you know the answer I get when people are trauma bonded? The answer I get is...

   2. LHLewis Howes0:37

      How do we forgive someone who's hurt us so badly as a narcissist?

   3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula0:41

      Maybe we don't. Maybe we don't. Something that's very important to me is that no one ever feels that they have to forgive someone for hijacking their soul.

   4. LHLewis Howes0:52

      How can you know if someone's a narcissist on the first date?

   5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula0:54

      So-

   6. LHLewis Howes0:56

      Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest. We have back Dr. Ramani in the house. So good to see you.

   7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:02

      So nice to see you, Lewis.

   8. LHLewis Howes1:02

      Welcome back. Our last interview I think had millions of views and listens, and I think this is gonna help a lot of people.

   9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:10

      Thank you.

   10. LHLewis Howes1:10

       So, uh, It's Not You: Identifying and Healing from Narcissistic People. Is it even possible, uh, in your book, you uncover all these different ideas. Is it even possible to not only heal after narcissistic relationship or abuse that you've experienced in a narcissistic relationship intimacy, but also to trust yourself again that you can choose someone who isn't a narcissist?

   11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:39

       100% it's possible. I, I see love stories after narcissistic abuse for people all the time, but let me tell you-

   12. LHLewis Howes1:47

       [laughs]

   13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:47

       ... it's a bumpy road to get there.

   14. LHLewis Howes1:49

       Really?

   15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:49

       And I think that... So what I wanna tell people is it's possible. It's not easy.

   16. LHLewis Howes1:55

       Mm.

   17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:57

       I read this, someone in my healing community brought this interesting line from David Kessler's work. I'm sure you know David Kessler. If you don't, you should. You gotta have him on. He's great. He is prob- to me, one of the best voices in grief-

   18. LHLewis Howes2:09

       Mm

   19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula2:09

       ... that's out there, right? He worked with Kubler Ross back in the day, like-

   20. LHLewis Howes2:13

       Okay

   21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula2:13

       ... he's that guy. And he had this beautiful, um, passage in a book. Like I said, someone in my healing community was sharing it just in terms of trying to understand the grief from narcissistic abuse, and he said, "Loss is optional." And what he meant by that is, he was talking about his own process of grief, and he said, "I could choose. There's one way to avoid losing, is to never love again."

   22. LHLewis Howes2:35

       Mm.

   23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula2:35

       "To never have a pet."

   24. LHLewis Howes2:37

       Oh.

   25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula2:37

       "To never have a lover, to never have a partner, to never have a friend, and to not have a family. And then you won't experience loss, but you won't experience life."

   26. LHLewis Howes2:47

       Mm.

   27. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula2:48

       And I thought it was so beautiful because it was that idea of loss is optional. These do at some level do become choices, and I think for me, for survivors of narcissistic abuse, feeling the sense of autonomy, which tends to be stripped away by these relationships, grief is a process you go through. And during grief it is, and I've been working with several grief-stricken clients recently, either through death or through, um, or through the loss of these relationships, and it is such, it is the most human of experiences. Like birth and death, grief is the experience that unites everyone, and we have some pretty universal reactions to it, and the big mistake we're making now in modern times is we believe we can rush through grief, that we can control our feelings.

   28. LHLewis Howes3:29

       Get over it quickly.

   29. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula3:30

       Get over it quickly. And it, it like-

   30. LHLewis Howes3:32

       Find someone else quickly.
2. 3:50 – 7:26

   Dissociation and Loss in Narcissistic Relationships

   1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula3:50

      and because people who go through narcissistic relationships become masters of dissociation. And I don't mean sort of the full-blown traumatic dissociation, but like, "I'm not feeling that. I'm not seeing that."

   2. LHLewis Howes4:00

      Mm-hmm.

   3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula4:00

      They're very good at pushing everything away because that's the only way to survive in these relationships, but you also get good at cutting out the pain, right? Going through in this world in this numbness. But going back to this idea of loss is optional, what you'd have to live, no lo- no partner, no nothing, I guess you wouldn't c- you wouldn't go through that same breach of trust or betrayal and all the pain we go through when we love, but then you wouldn't have love, and what else is the experience of being a human being but to connect to other people? And the reason I say this is that when you're in those acute stages of, of grief, you're not thinking about like, "Ah, good. Let loss be optional. I am not signing up for it. Thank you, no." But then there's a point at which you say, "But I wanna feel again." And, you know, there's nothing more beautiful to me when I'm working with a survivor when they do say, "I think I'm ready to start feeling people again, but I'm so scared." And I, first of all, I remind them, "Girl, you survived that. Anything else someone brings new, you're gonna be fine."

   4. LHLewis Howes4:57

      [laughs] Right, right, right, right.

   5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula4:58

      "You got this," right? But that fear, it is overwhelming for people.

   6. LHLewis Howes5:03

      Mm-hmm.

   7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula5:04

      That how will I survive if this is done to me again? How will I ever have faith in any human being again? And above all else, the point you made, how will I ever trust myself? And that loss of trust in the self is what really bums me out because now these are people who are saying they're still having trouble making decisions, or I've got bad judgment. And so a lot of the work and a lot of what I talk about in It's Not You is the fine art of discernment.

   8. LHLewis Howes5:28

      Mm-hmm.

   9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula5:28

      And my big point there, okay, and everyone talks about wellness, wellness, wellness. Eat, drink the right juice, drink the right tea, eat the right kale, do the right workout, do the right this. Discern, discern, pick, pick well. Wear the right workout clothes and cotton and all this. I'm like, "People, I get it. You do you, but can we bring that kind of discerning awareness to people?" We're not discerning when it comes to the people we let in our life. "Oh, you're gonna abuse me? Come on in." I'm like, "You might as well smoke a pack of cigarettes at that point."

   10. LHLewis Howes5:56

       Wow.

   11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula5:56

       You're so careful about what you eat. Stop doing that. Eat junk food for all I care. Just be careful about who you let in.

   12. LHLewis Howes6:03

       Don't allow emotional abuse to come in.

   13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula6:04

       Exactly, and don't, and don't enable. And, and don't, and don't keep making those excuses. Like, we let toxic people in so close and fast.

   14. LHLewis Howes6:13

       Why do, why do... Why is that so common for people to make excuses for their partner's bad behaviors consistently for how they treat them? Um, why do we allow that? Why do we excuse that? Why do we continue it? Is-

   15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula6:26

       We- you love them. I mean, you love them. That, that-

   16. LHLewis Howes6:28

       But do we love them, or is it a false sense of love?

   17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula6:31

       I think that when... Then we get into a philosophical dis- discussion of is it love?

   18. LHLewis Howes6:34

       Is it chemical bonded? Is it, you know, lo- is it-

   19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula6:37

       You think you love them.

   20. LHLewis Howes6:38

       Yes.

   21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula6:38

       You know, it's, it, you... Listen, if somebody behaves badly on a first date, they try to grab the waitress's ass, and they, and they yell at you, and they scream at you, and they curse at you, you're like, "Okay."

   22. LHLewis Howes6:50

       You're probably not gonna be on a second date with them.

   23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula6:52

       There's not gonna be a second date. Second date, third date even, you probably won't put up with it. Once you get deeper into it-

   24. LHLewis Howes6:59

       Why, though? Why do we put up with bad behavior after, you know, three, six months to three years, and then we stay in it when we wouldn't have been in that relationship early on if they did that?

   25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula7:09

       Right. One, I'd almost say, is more cognitive and almost behavioral, economic, and sort of sunk cost fallacy stuff. "I've already put in three months-

   26. LHLewis Howes7:16

       Uh-huh

   27. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula7:17

       ... into this relationship."

   28. LHLewis Howes7:18

       Correct.

   29. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula7:18

       "It is such a... I, can I look at more dating profiles? Like, oh, I gotta make this one work." It's like you, you don't wanna return the thing to the store.

   30. LHLewis Howes7:25

       Oh, man.
3. 7:26 – 11:12

   The Power of Intimacy and Old Scripts

   1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula7:26

      make this one work." Okay, there's that. Okay, that, but that's very cognitive. That misses what I think is more powerful, which is the somatic physical things that happen in us. Old scripts get evoked. If you were a child who made excuses for an invalidating parent, if you were a child who had to cater to the needs of a parent, all those, those accommodations in you, those start tr- it's, your, it's intimacy brings that out, right? 'Cause a parental relationship has its form of intimacy. It's a closeness. It's a attachment. So those old scripts start getting activated, and our natural tendency to fix, to rescue, to excuse, to justify in the name of attachment, all of that kicks in pretty quick.

   2. LHLewis Howes8:08

      Mm.

   3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula8:08

      So by the three months in, especially if there's things you like, you're attracted to the person, they're smart, they're clever-

   4. LHLewis Howes8:16

      Yeah

   5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula8:16

      ... you have fun, you've gone on a nice trip, you like the sex, all of those things, which at some level are kinda superficial, they keep someone in the game, right? So in order to keep attached to this person that you're feeling, that you're enjoying, you get your es- some of us are really good at those trauma bonded justifications.

   6. LHLewis Howes8:35

      Mm, mm-hmm.

   7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula8:35

      There's people out there, frankly, Lewis, who are actually good at da- at three months out to say, "This isn't healthy," and they can step away. They may not be as vulnerable to those internal accommodations made in family of origin.

   8. LHLewis Howes8:48

      How do we become more dis- like, what is a, what are the qualities of a discerning person?

   9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula8:53

      Mm-hmm.

   10. LHLewis Howes8:53

       How do you know-

   11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula8:54

       Mm

   12. LHLewis Howes8:54

       ... I have the skills, the tools, the emotional strength and courage to be discerning? What do those skills look like? What do those emotions look like?

   13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula9:04

       So let me tell this. I'm gonna go backwards on your answer here, and I'm gonna get to the sort of the nuts and bolts. I was recently talking with someone who said something so interesting to me, 'cause a lot of what her and I talk about is discernment, discernment, discernment, right? And she said, "You know, I've become more discerning 'cause I'm working with you and talking with you, but it means I'm slower. Like, I very de- I deliberate on things, and I'm very aware of the trauma wounds that are brought up by being to get decisions ri-

   14. LHLewis Howes9:29

       That's a good thing, right, in relationships

   15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula9:30

       ... but everyone around her is like, like, "What's going on? Like, why are you taking so long? Like, hurry up and make a decision." We like decisive people in our world. We view decisive people as together, as-

   16. LHLewis Howes9:42

       Confident

   17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula9:43

       ... as confident, right? So the, the discerning person can sometimes feel like a waffler, when in fact she's like, I... And I, again, I really believe in somatic physically held work. I really believe in that. I think that we feel things when they're right, however, that, that there's a wholeness, there's a sensation of wholeness, right? Discernment, number one, means slow the hell down. You have to go so much-

   18. LHLewis Howes10:06

       But don't have sex on the first night?

   19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula10:08

       Right, don't have sex.

   20. LHLewis Howes10:08

       [laughs]

   21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula10:09

       I, as tempting as it is, I mean, go home, take care of yourself-

   22. LHLewis Howes10:12

       [laughs]

   23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula10:12

       ... but not with them.

   24. LHLewis Howes10:14

       Uh-huh.

   25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula10:14

       For no other reason, this is not a moralistic thing at all. It really is not. It is more of a it muddies up the decision-making waters.

   26. LHLewis Howes10:22

       Of course.

   27. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula10:22

       It creates a different kind of an investment, and it even brings up, for some people, emotions such as shame, which also muddies the waters. Keep it clean.

   28. LHLewis Howes10:30

       And then you wanna stay, you wanna, like, stay with that person because you've already had sex with them or-

   29. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula10:34

       And you wanna prove them wrong that you're-

   30. LHLewis Howes10:35

       Yes
4. 11:12 – 14:47

   The Complexity of Narcissistic Relationships

   1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula11:12

      love his work on standards, but it gets real tricky when we talk about narcissistic relationships. That's when him and I kind of, like, are sort of, like, this, in this interesting dance because it, none of that standard stuff works in a narcissistic relationship. I'm not saying that only a narcissist has sex with you on the first date. You might meet a really sweet person, and you're a sweet person, and two sweet people have sex on the first date, right? But what it's done, though, is, because ultimately, Lewis, the connective tissue of a long-term committed relationship is respect, compassion, safety, a growth orientation, attunement. Those are the things I come back to every time. That's it. That's safety in a relationship. And getting to that, like ensuring that you almost have those active ingredients, because sex is such an emotionally laden space for people, some of us have heard very moralistic stigmatizing stuff about it, about it. Many people have been, have histories of sexual abuse or other sort of unwanted se- or coerced sexual experiences. That muddies the waters. It, um, it, it leaves both people sometimes even sort of confused, "What is this about?"

   2. LHLewis Howes12:22

      What are we doing? Yeah.

   3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula12:23

      Right. What are we doing, right? For wh- I do believe in a gendered frame, in a binary gendered frame, women get more shamed and feel more shamed for that. They feel as though, "Okay, well, that's how this person sees me." And so there is that. There's, I still think even though that f- feels so patriarchal and throwback-y, I think it's sadly still part of the conversation for how women experience it subjectively.

   4. LHLewis Howes12:47

      Mm.

   5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula12:47

      Like, "Did I just sort of throw myself under the bus here? Um, or have I just made this into something that's not gonna last?" I don't think that's necessarily so. I think a good partner would not discount a partner for doing that.

   6. LHLewis Howes12:59

      Right.

   7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula12:59

      But I do think it muddies the waters. And if you have sex with a narcissist on the first date, forget it. Forget it.

   8. LHLewis Howes13:06

      What happens?

   9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula13:06

      It, it's gonna... Well, because now what's happened is-

   10. LHLewis Howes13:09

       [laughs]

   11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula13:10

       ... they have in a way-

   12. LHLewis Howes13:11

       They have, like, power and control-

   13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula13:13

       You, power

   14. LHLewis Howes13:13

       ... and manipulation

   15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula13:14

       You've given them the ultimate supply. They're not even gonna love bomb that much anymore. They're like, "Okay, great. Got what I need." And, and, and I hate to say this, Lewis, because narcissistic people can be very cruel in relationships, they will actually use that as a tool of punishment and manipulation down the road.

   16. LHLewis Howes13:31

       How so?

   17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula13:32

       Um, um, forgive me for using really bad language.

   18. LHLewis Howes13:34

       Sure.

   19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula13:34

       But like, "You're a slut."

   20. LHLewis Howes13:36

       Oh, wow. "Look what you did with me."

   21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula13:37

       You're, you're, you're, you're downmarket. Like, what do you, who are, who are, who else you do this with?

   22. LHLewis Howes13:41

       Ah.

   23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula13:41

       Or what are you gonna go do that with someone else? And so now the person feels shamed in the relationship, but the shame feels plausible because they're hearkening back to an event which might have actually felt connected and intimate-

   24. LHLewis Howes13:52

       Oh

   25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula13:52

       ... at the time, but a narcissistic person will always weaponize those experiences. So it leaves a person often questioning themselves. They're like, "I don't think of myself as sort of a sexually wanton person," and they're not. They just felt some sense of trust and connectedness that particular time, but the narcissistic person will run with it. So that's why I'm saying since you don't know the person's a narcissist on the first date, best not have sex with them.

   26. LHLewis Howes14:14

       How can you know if someone's a narcissist on the first date?

   27. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula14:16

       You can't. I mean, I, unless it's glaring. I mean, the only giveaway is, and, and I would never want anyone to get into a car with someone on a first date, 'cause I actually think that's dangerous. I think it's too closed in, and that's me in the sort of scary world [laughs] that Dr. Ramani occupies. But if you were in a car or watching them drive, I don't know why you'd watch them drive, but narcissistic people drive quite dangerously. It's often an e- interesting tell. I'm not saying every dangerous driver is narcissistic.

   28. LHLewis Howes14:43

       Right.

   29. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula14:44

       But if you ask me to put $100 down, I'll take the bet every time.

   30. LHLewis Howes14:46

       Wow.

5. 14:47 – 18:20

   Recognizing Narcissistic Behavior

   1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula14:47

      So-

   2. LHLewis Howes14:47

      What's dangerous mean? Like they're reckless or they're-

   3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula14:49

      They're reckless

   4. LHLewis Howes14:49

      ... screaming at people or they're-

   5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula14:51

      Reckless, coming, you know, driving too fast, swerving in and out of traffic, driving faster than the other cars on the road, beeping, honking, giving them the finger, but like in a rageful way, like that, researchers, this has been sh- h- I, I can think of a dozen published empirical articles from around the world, driving simulator articles, observation articles, you name it, that have all shown that narcissistic people drive more dangerously. So if you, let's say by date three you're in a car with them and they're doing that whole, "I drove here," right? "It took me an hour to drive here." And in that hour, I'm like, "Narcissist, narcissist."

   6. LHLewis Howes15:25

      Really? [laughs]

   7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula15:25

      "Narcissist." They were cutting me off, and I, and I actually never get into it when that happens because if they are in fact narcissistic, I know they're gonna be short-fused, and it could cause me more problems. So I cut them a wide berth. I'm gonna get there when I get there.

   8. LHLewis Howes15:39

      Right.

   9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula15:39

      And, but I, that's often a tell. But other than something that glaring, I mean, sure you could watch how they treat the person who valet parks the car or the server in the restaurant or the bartender or if they're really that unhinged and they're that disinhibited on the first date that they're rude to these, these folks or, or inappropriate, intrusive-

   10. LHLewis Howes15:59

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah

   11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula16:00

       ... flirty.

   12. LHLewis Howes16:01

       Yeah.

   13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula16:01

       Listen to that. A lot of people say, "Well, maybe they were a little anxious." I'm like, "Well, if this is how they behave when they're anxious, do you really want a relationship with this person?" That's w- So I would say that those kinds of tiny tells might come up. I would say that it, it, it would be, um, this is a great one actually. This came up, someone I was talking with recently. It was a first or second date, and at the end of the date, they, it was like one of those times we're in a neighborhood where there's lots of stuff to walk to, and the, the person, the guy said, "Hey, you wanna go out to this other place for another drink or whatever?" And she said, and she had s- done the discernment work with me, and she said, and she said, "I wasn't," she said to me afterwards, "I wasn't feeling it somatically," right? And she said, "No, yeah, I've had a such a great time, and, um, but, you know, I'd love to see you again. I just," and she said, "I have to, I have to work early." And he got really cold and a little bit angry, and she wondered if she was being too sensitive. I said, "No, that's a red flag." Because I said-

   14. LHLewis Howes16:59

       Yeah

   15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula16:59

       ... "If you just had a lovely time and a lovely dinner and you had to work right, whatever you had to do the next day," you know-

   16. LHLewis Howes17:04

       Yeah, he should respect that

   17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula17:05

       ... that you said, "I don't wanna do that."

   18. LHLewis Howes17:06

       And say, "Hey, I'll, hopefully I'll see you next week or something." Yeah.

   19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula17:08

       And the person, what she had said to me is like, "I kind of felt like I'd hurt his feelings." And I said, "If this is how he's responding to hurt feelings, that level of reactive sensitivity, that's a red flag to me."

   20. LHLewis Howes17:18

       Wow. Yeah.

   21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula17:19

       Those are the kinds of early tells that might be a little-

   22. LHLewis Howes17:21

       That's a lack of emotional, I guess, awareness or lack of emotional maturity or whatever it might be, right?

   23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula17:25

       Yeah, but it's also a dysregulation. It's a reactivity.

   24. LHLewis Howes17:28

       Right. I mean, from the guy, it would be, that-

   25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula17:29

       That's what I mean

   26. LHLewis Howes17:30

       ... that's the scenario. Yeah, yeah.

   27. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula17:30

       Mm-hmm.

   28. LHLewis Howes17:30

       Dysregulation.

   29. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula17:31

       That he's dysregulated, yeah.

   30. LHLewis Howes17:32

       Which means he's not emotionally safe himself, I guess.
6. 18:20 – 22:09

   The Danger of Chemistry and Connection

   1. LHLewis Howes18:20

      that's a bad sign or actually something to lean into because you're feeling good as well in your body?

   2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula18:26

      Right.

   3. LHLewis Howes18:26

      Not, not like, "Oh, this is exciting and dangerous," but this feels right.

   4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula18:31

      So here's y- it, to m- [laughs] it's funny. In my, in one of my prior books, I write about this at length, but chemistry and connection are really dangerous words to me. Because they are-

   5. LHLewis Howes18:41

      Mm-hmm

   6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula18:41

      ... they are, um, they can be trauma bonded words. People say, "I don't know what to tell you. It feels familiar." I'm like, "Familiar is not good." Because the, again, that's a great example of the body holding something. Now, listen, I'm not saying everyone should go date someone they think is a dud. Or like, "I felt nothing, so I'm gonna go on a second date."

   7. LHLewis Howes19:01

      [laughs] I'm gonna go right into it, yeah.

   8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula19:02

      I'm gonna go right into it. The, it's a, it's more of a, it's m- it, I under- So what do we mean by connection? I guess that's the problem is when somebody says to me, "I feel the sense of connection," my question as shrink's gonna be, "What does that mean to you?" Right? Because what you call connection, what I call connection, what a random person on the street calls connection may be very different things, right? There's healthy feelings of connection, feeling attuned to, feeling seen, feeling heard, a conversation that seems to just flow effortlessly. You don't feel judged. You feel safe. I like, I'll, I'll buy that as connection.

   9. LHLewis Howes19:40

      Uh-huh.

   10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula19:41

       But connection when it's sort of like you kinda feel like you're on your back foot, that now you're sort of game on, and how do I win this person over? And it's a little bit of like you're, you're almost like, it's, it's almost like a match. Like, how do I sort of, mm, mm. Like, it, it, it's a little bit gamey. That concerns me.

   11. LHLewis Howes19:57

       Wow.

   12. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula19:58

       Because that to me could actually be a throwback to somebody feeling as though, "I have to win this person over. What are the tricks? H-" And, and you'll see this in people who have sort of a sympathetic nervous fawn response. Like, how do I have to modify myself to win them? That familiarity, especially if that's how somebody had to go through childhood, can actually feel like connection.

   13. LHLewis Howes20:20

       Wow.

   14. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula20:20

       Because it's work. It's exciting. "Oh my gosh, here's something I need to do." But if one doesn't feel worthy of being loved as who they are and somebody comes and just likes you for who you are, well, that's not very fun, 'cause I don't have a template for that. You're k- almost like, "What? Why are you?" Like, mm. But when som- when you're feeling you have to win someone over-

   15. LHLewis Howes20:39

       Mm

   16. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula20:39

       ... that becomes exciting. So I think that that idea of chemistry can make people irrational. Listen, if you have chemistry with somebody who is empathic, compassionate, kind, and respectful, you won the lottery. We call it what it is. You're just a lucky person.

   17. LHLewis Howes20:55

       Wow.

   18. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula20:56

       Okay? And that's great, and there's people out there who have connection and all those goodies, and they are as blessed by the heavens as a human being can be, right?

   19. LHLewis Howes21:04

       Mm.

   20. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula21:05

       The majority of people who have connection, sadly, will say, "We had this conne- sense of connection, and that's why I excused the this and excused the that and the this and the that." And you know, it's funny, because when I have worked with people and who are in more trauma bonded relationships, this idea where it's days hot, cold, and hot and cold and back and forth, and you keep having the same arguments, and you're always justifying. The hack I have for figuring out whether or not someone's in a, a trauma bonded relationship, I'll have a client who's in a chaotic dating relationship or, like, a really unhealthy relationship, and will sometimes hit the wall of like, "Oh, I know this isn't healthy. I love them." And I'll say, "Okay. Right now, take a minute. Tell me why you love them."

   21. LHLewis Howes21:52

       Ooh.

   22. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula21:52

       And you know the answer I get when people are trauma bonded? The answer I get, or it's chemistry, the answer I get is, "Okay, doc, give me a second. Well, you know what? It's, I don't, it's this... I don't know how to describe it. It's like this, I don't know. It's, it's just sort of this

7. 22:09 – 25:37

   The Process of Trauma Bonding

   1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula22:09

      connec- ma-" That's not an answer.

   2. LHLewis Howes22:12

      They can't clearly define why they like them.

   3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula22:14

      Because it... See, and whereas I ask that to healthy people, 'cause I have friends whose marriages are just, they're for the b- they're beautiful. And I'll say to my friend, "What, tell me why you love him." And she's like, "Oh, please. He's my best friend. Like, I love him. Like, we've got each other's backs. I feel like we kind of almost read each other's minds. We do stuff together. I, he's the first person I wanna see in the morning. I, the fir- I look forward to landing on my flights, 'cause he's the first person I text. I miss him when I'm not..." Those are answers. Nothing trauma bonded. But the whole, like, "I don't know," that's not good.

   4. LHLewis Howes22:48

      How do you know if you're entering in a relationship through trauma bonding?

   5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula22:52

      So I don't think anyone enters in that way, Lewis. I think that we, we are, attraction's a pretty universal phenomenon, right? A different, the, you know, although we might find different things attractive, right?

   6. LHLewis Howes23:02

      Right.

   7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula23:02

      Not even, different people find different people attractive. Attractiveness, you know, there's something that c- that sort of we're, we're attracted to what we're attracted to. We're attracted to whatever is aesthetically pleasing to us, what might feel somewhat familiar to us, um, what is sort of normative for our culture. Attraction's attraction. Now, remember, narcissistic folks are charming, charismatic, and confident, and successful, right? So that is attractive to everybody, which is why everyone's attractive to narciss- why everyone, uh, narcissistic people are attractive to everyone. But trauma bonding's not what gets people into relationships. It's what gets them stuck. So a person might be drawn, for example, in a narcissistic relationship, to the charm, the charisma, the confidence, the attractiveness, the smoothness, the, the whole thing, the whole package, and say, "Whoa, wow, woof," you know, "I w- I wanna meet them." And you meet them, and they're every bit as charming as they were across the room. That's attraction When you're three months in and this person's gaslighting you, and manipulating you, and doing shady stuff, and invalidating you, and you're making excuses for that, that's trauma bonding. So someplace between attraction and trauma bonding is a process.

   8. LHLewis Howes24:09

      Mm.

   9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula24:10

      And that's the process we'd love to be able to short-circuit. But the problem is most of that process is something we call love bombing.

   10. LHLewis Howes24:16

       No. And it just, like, brings you into the relationship-

   11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula24:19

       Mm-hmm

   12. LHLewis Howes24:19

       ... and makes you feel-

   13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula24:20

       Mm-hmm

   14. LHLewis Howes24:20

       ... like you're thinking about them all the time or-

   15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula24:22

       Yep.

   16. LHLewis Howes24:23

       Yeah.

   17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula24:23

       How do you pull someone out of a fairy tale? It's not easy.

   18. LHLewis Howes24:26

       How do you? [laughs]

   19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula24:28

       Like, and, and this is why I'm the last person anyone wants to spend Valentine's Day with.

   20. LHLewis Howes24:32

       [laughs]

   21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula24:32

       Interesting it's my clinical day. I'm like, "It's best that I just stay locked in with my clients on Valentine's Day and be kept away from everyone else," because I, um, I, it's not easy. So when people are in the fairy tale, I say to people, like, "Listen, if any of you have the discipline to just eat the top off the cupcake, do it. But then don't get involved in the stumpy bottom part. Like, we don't need that. Let's get r- you wanna ride it out, ride it out. Have some fun, do some fun things." But it's pretty rare-

   22. LHLewis Howes24:59

       Two to four weeks and then stop. Yeah, yeah.

   23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula25:01

       Yeah, it's pretty rare for a person to say, "Okay, I'm s-," or, or, you know, or to leave after the third invalidation, or the third shady thing, right? I'm a big fan of threes. You know, first time happens, it happens. Second time it happens, it's a coincidence. Third time it happens, it's a pattern. And that's when you're like, "Mm, what's happening here?" But that overlap, that overlap period where love bombing turns into devalua- devaluation is this demilitarized zone that's a really dangerous place. Because it's a, it's where the, the good stuff is still happening at a pretty good frequency, but the, the devaluing-

   24. LHLewis Howes25:36

       The, is starting to come in

   25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula25:36

       ... is starting to kick in.

8. 25:37 – 29:17

   Intermittent Reinforcement and Trauma Bonding

   1. LHLewis Howes25:37

      Yeah.

   2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula25:37

      And you're now trying to make sense of it.

   3. LHLewis Howes25:38

      And you just want the good stuff.

   4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula25:39

      And you want the good stuff, and the good-

   5. LHLewis Howes25:40

      You go back to the good stuff, yeah.

   6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula25:41

      But it's happening enough. You're still getting enough good stuff. So it's almost like you're with this, again, it's all intermittent reinforcement. All trauma bonding-

   7. LHLewis Howes25:48

      It's not consis-

   8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula25:48

      ... is a slot machine

   9. LHLewis Howes25:49

      ... it's not consistent.

   10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula25:50

       It's a slot machine.

   11. LHLewis Howes25:51

       I think the last time you were on here, or maybe it's the first time you were on, I didn't really know what narcissism was fully.

   12. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula25:58

       Mm-hmm.

   13. LHLewis Howes25:58

       I was kind of like, and I remember just having all these gasping moments where I was just, like, starting to realize more and more about the pain of experiencing a narcissistic either person or narcissistic tendencies from a person-

   14. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula26:12

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

   15. LHLewis Howes26:12

       ... where I had once in a relationship felt so much love for many, many months, and then this intermittent make wrong, or you need to change, or thi- or whatever it was, like, this less accepting of me, more shaming of me, diminishing me, trying to change me, but still bringing some of the love. But then it just faded all the way into, you know, 5% of the love and all blame, make wrong, gaslighting type of experiences. And when you first started telling me about this, I was just like, "Man, this is a, it's a pa-," it was, because it's so painful-

   16. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula26:47

       Painful

   17. LHLewis Howes26:47

       ... to experience.

   18. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula26:48

       It's painful.

   19. LHLewis Howes26:49

       And so many people have experienced this in some way, whether it's intimate relationship or a friendship or s- or their parents, and it's painful to be in. It's painful to try to get out of. It's painful to heal from. The whole thing is painful.

   20. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula27:03

       It is painful, and I'm so glad you brought up that painful part. Because the simplistic view is this person's mistreating you, step away. But it, for some people, they'll say, "It feels like cutting off my own arm."

   21. LHLewis Howes27:14

       Right.

   22. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula27:14

       Like, I, and, and many people when they're trauma bonded will say, "I am this, I'm feeling, like, a panic attack at the idea of even considering leaving this relationship."

   23. LHLewis Howes27:23

       Mm.

   24. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula27:24

       You know, not even having the conversation or considering doing it. And so that, so we can't live in tension all the time.

   25. LHLewis Howes27:31

       Right.

   26. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula27:31

       That's not how the human, the human nervous system's set up, and the human psyche is not set up that way. So how do we dissipate that tension? Cognitive, that cognitive dissonance we call it. We undissonance it.

   27. LHLewis Howes27:41

       Right.

   28. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula27:41

       Right? And we make the justifications. So the justifications make us feel less tense, and now we've bought another month, six months, 10 years. You know, and, and when life gets busy, right, which is where when people might get married to a narcissistic person, and then there's wedding, wedding, and busy, busy, and set up a household.

   29. LHLewis Howes27:58

       Distractions, yeah.

   30. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula27:58

       Distraction. Then you have kids.
9. 29:17 – 32:55

   Seeking a Healthy Relationship

   1. LHLewis Howes29:17

      if they're not accepting of me or loving me or if they're mad or angry with me or if they're-

   2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula29:21

      Mm-hmm.

   3. LHLewis Howes29:22

      I was thinking how come we can't just go back to the be- first few months when it was just like everything was amazing. There was never any stress. There was never any, like, make wrong or blame, or you need to change, or you can't do that, or you have to do this. None of that. Um, I was like, "Why can't we just go back to that experience again and have that more continuously?" So-

   4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula29:39

      Mm-hmm

   5. LHLewis Howes29:39

      ... but I just also didn't know what a healthy relationship looked like ever. So I never experienced that from the model of my parents.

   6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula29:46

      That's right. That's right.

   7. LHLewis Howes29:47

      I never experienced that from all the relationships I had. So I was unable to know somatically this is healthy, this is the way it's supposed to look. Whether we work out or not, you know, based on our values or our vision or whatever- Um, but this feels healthy.

   8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula30:05

      Yeah.

   9. LHLewis Howes30:06

      I'd never felt healthy in any relationship.

   10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula30:08

       Yeah. Mm-hmm.

   11. LHLewis Howes30:08

       And so I just didn't know.

   12. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula30:10

       No, you don't know. And in some ways, ending... So being honest with yourself about that moment in a relationship where you're like, "This i- is not good for me. I, I-"

   13. LHLewis Howes30:21

       Mm-hmm.

   14. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula30:21

       "I feel afraid." Like you said-

   15. LHLewis Howes30:22

       Yeah

   16. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula30:22

       ... I felt a lack of courage, as it were.

   17. LHLewis Howes30:24

       And I was also afraid, like, that if I end this, this person's gonna go out and try to, like, ruin my life.

   18. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula30:30

       Okay. Well, then, if see, but see, the thing is, that that's a real... That, so those fears, some of those fears are histo- h- fears based on history, some of those fears are fears based on identity, "I'm a failure." Some of them fe- are fears based on potential reality.

   19. LHLewis Howes30:43

       Right.

   20. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula30:43

       Because if there's one thing anyone... 'Cause this is what's challenging about narcissistic relationships. It's actually great when they break up with you, and all, my clients-

   21. LHLewis Howes30:50

       All that

   22. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula30:50

       ... will say, "What are you talking about? My heart's broken." I'm like, "You're gonna be so glad about this-

   23. LHLewis Howes30:54

       Uh, yeah

   24. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula30:54

       ... at some point."

   25. LHLewis Howes30:55

       That didn't happen, though. I had to do-

   26. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula30:56

       No, it, you had to end it

   27. LHLewis Howes30:57

       ... I had to do it. Yeah.

   28. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula30:57

       You had to end it. So when-

   29. LHLewis Howes30:58

       And I kept saying, "Please, end this."

   30. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula31:00

       Yeah.
10. 32:55 – 36:21

    Fear of Regret and Indifference in Relationships

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula32:55

       puppy pictures, what am I gonna do?" And now, and they move on-

    2. LHLewis Howes32:58

       And I'll never find someone as good as this, or-

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula32:59

       ... and the next person's gonna get the better version of them. And so then people go down that rabbit hole, and it's almost like they're, you know, it's almost you're, it's like a kid with a toy. They're like, "I don't really want this toy, but I don't want you to have this toy."

    4. LHLewis Howes33:11

       Yeah.

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula33:11

       If you've ever had a sibling, you know, the sibling doesn't give up the ball, but like, you don't want the ball. Like, but I don't want her to have the ball. [laughs]

    6. LHLewis Howes33:17

       [laughs] Right, right.

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula33:17

       So it's that. So they w- so people, that fear of regret. What if I'm wrong, what if they change, what if they change for the next person, what if they move on quickly? They're gonna move on quickly. That's what they do. They sort of... And, and all of that. And then I've got a bird in hand and it's so hard to date, and all that stuff.

    8. LHLewis Howes33:35

       I've invested a year or two years or four year, 10, whatever it is, right? Gosh. How do you know when you know?

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula33:44

       That someone's narcissistic?

    10. LHLewis Howes33:46

        That someone's the right person.

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula33:47

        The right person.

    12. LHLewis Howes33:48

        You know they say you know when you know, but how do you fully know mentally, spiritually, somatically, this is healthy, this is or could be the right person for me?

    13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula34:01

        You're, so you're neither indifferent nor ruminating. Does that make sense? And the reason I'm making that distinction-

    14. LHLewis Howes34:07

        What does that mean? What-

    15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula34:08

        Okay, so you're ruminating when it's unhealthy, like you're ruminating the whole drive to work, going, "How come I'm so mi- how could he say that?"

    16. LHLewis Howes34:15

        You're asking people-

    17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula34:15

        "Oh, blah, blah, blah."

    18. LHLewis Howes34:16

        ... your friends, like-

    19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula34:16

        Yes, exactly

    20. LHLewis Howes34:16

        ... "Why is this happening?"

    21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula34:17

        Right.

    22. LHLewis Howes34:17

        "And should... What do you think about this?"

    23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula34:19

        And you're-

    24. LHLewis Howes34:19

        And asking for advice

    25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula34:19

        ... you're, you're all that. So that, that's bad.

    26. LHLewis Howes34:22

        Ruminating, yep.

    27. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula34:23

        Indifference is bad, 'cause I, I was gonna say 'cause you're not thinking about it all the time, but I don't mean not thinking it about it all, about it all the time 'cause you're literally indifferent to someone and you're like-

    28. LHLewis Howes34:32

        Don't care

    29. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula34:32

        ... "If they never call me back, I don't care." [laughs]

    30. LHLewis Howes34:33

        Yeah.
11. 36:21 – 39:54

    The Charm of Narcissists

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula36:21

       folks, and that's its own whole kind of mess of a situation.

    2. LHLewis Howes36:24

       Whose parent, whose parents are-

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula36:26

       Super happy

    4. LHLewis Howes36:26

       ... are happily married?

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula36:27

       Like, parents were, like, love story.

    6. LHLewis Howes36:28

       But the, what, the kids are narcissistic?

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula36:30

       And then the kid marry... No, the kid marries a narcissist.

    8. LHLewis Howes36:31

       Why?

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula36:32

       That's a great question, and I'll tell you why, 'cause I've seen it happen many times. So-

    10. LHLewis Howes36:36

        They're just so compassionate and loving and accepting, or how's it work?

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula36:39

        So go back to the charm, charisma, confidence, success-

    12. LHLewis Howes36:42

        Yes

    13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula36:42

        ... all of that stuff, right? So the person's shiny and cool and neat, and not, and sometimes that narcissistic person not only love-bombs person, they love-bomb their family.

    14. LHLewis Howes36:51

        Oh, yeah.

    15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula36:52

        Right? And so especially a close-knit family where everyone's doing stuff together, and so they ingratiate themselves into that system sometimes, right? Especially the happy family that's clearly a united front, but they're not a difficult front. And since they love each other and they love their kid, they believe in love, right? So that kind of cynicism that you'd see in most of the dysfunctional families I know, that they're like, "Well, who's this guy?" is more of, like, "Come on in. Like, welcome to the fam."

    16. LHLewis Howes37:17

        Yeah, the welcome in. Yeah, come sit down. Yeah.

    17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula37:20

        So they're getting so much validation, right? So then when things start going wonky, talk about the lack of a template. At least those of us from dysfunctional families were like, "I know from messy, okay? Some messy's happening. I don't have a name for this." But they don't, they literally have not been to this planet before. They're like, "What is this place? W- they're speaking the language I don't understand." And I'll tell you, this actually can be quite tragic. I consulted once. There was a f- a couple of times, actually. Not even once, a few times, the, with families where, one I remember so well. The fam- parents had been married, like, 48 years, 45 years. Really healthy. Did all kinds of wonderful stuff together. And daughter married a narcissist, right? And the parents were almost coming to me like, "We don't get this." And they said, "We're devastated," because these parents literally believed that, like, well, he's not a very nice guy, so family court is just gonna give the parents to the nicer person. I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no. This is not how this works. Your daugh- needs an attorney, like, yesterday." And they said, "Well, no, we're already learning this because this process has already begun and we're watching our daughter fade in front of our eyes." And so they said, "We did..." And they, they felt very guilty because they felt like they'd given her terrible advice.

    18. LHLewis Howes38:36

        Oh.

    19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula38:36

        Because they kept saying, "Just lo-

    20. LHLewis Howes38:37

        Be trusting, loving

    21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula38:38

        ... love him more.

    22. LHLewis Howes38:39

        Yeah.

    23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula38:39

        Love him more."

    24. LHLewis Howes38:40

        Be-

    25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula38:40

        That's what we do in our family. We just love more. And sometimes that would come in the way of giving him more money. That would just be like, "You guys go. Go away to the Bahamas for the weekend. We'll watch the kids." Like, so it was just, like, they were basically giving him supply, and he was getting worse and cheating on her more, and it was just getting worse and worse and worse. But the family really, they said they were so, and they felt s- almost a sense of moral injury that they had done something wrong to their child by not seeing this. But Lewis, they had no template, and there are people out there who are like, "I..." They don't know this. They really have this joyful, happy, happy life.

    26. LHLewis Howes39:14

        Yeah. And you wanna trust the people.

    27. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula39:16

        Sure.

    28. LHLewis Howes39:16

        You wanna trust the world. You wanna be open. You wanna be, you know-

    29. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula39:19

        Yep

    30. LHLewis Howes39:19

        ... vulnerable, all that stuff.
12. 39:54 – 43:32

    Characteristics of Charming and Charismatic Individuals

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula39:54

       confident, successful, curious, attractive.

    2. LHLewis Howes39:57

       Yeah.

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula39:57

       I mean, g- we, uh, we could keep going.

    4. LHLewis Howes39:59

       Shiny.

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula39:59

       Shiny.

    6. LHLewis Howes40:00

       Now, is it possible to be charming, charismatic, confident, successful, attractive, and not be a narcissist?

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula40:07

       Yes. And please-

    8. LHLewis Howes40:08

       How do you know the difference between the two?

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula40:09

       Um, uh, well, you know, here's how you know the difference. It's, here's the thing. Charm and charisma get supply, right? They're like the, the fancy pollen-y thing that sticks out of a flower, right? They attract the bees and the birds, right? So i- there is a, there's an interpersonal skill that's cultivated in the charming and cul- um, charming and charismatic person. It can happen, right? So how do you know? Because the charming, charismatic, successful, attractive person who's not narcissistic is empathic. They listen. They're warm. They're not, you know, there's always that, that sort of, that, that vision of the person who's at the cocktail party that is talking to you, but they seem to almost be looking through your head at the door behind you to see if something better's coming in. They don't, you don't get that vibe from them. There is a genuineness. They don't monopolize the conversation. They are, they're, there's a genuine warmth to them.

    10. LHLewis Howes41:07

        Mm-hmm.

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula41:08

        You feel it. I mean, you definitely feel it. And, and it takes a few hits at, you know, sort of a few times up at bat to be sure that that's what you're dealing with. It's a... I mean, listen, I've met charming, charismatic people who are nice, but I've met more that are narcissistic. It's a pretty rare combo.

    12. LHLewis Howes41:23

        [laughs] Right.

    13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula41:24

        Yeah.

    14. LHLewis Howes41:25

        Oh, man. It's, and it's probably rare depending on where you are located in-

    15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula41:29

        Yeah

    16. LHLewis Howes41:29

        ... the country as well too-

    17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula41:30

        Yeah

    18. LHLewis Howes41:30

        ... where there might be more or like-

    19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula41:32

        LA is lots.

    20. LHLewis Howes41:33

        LA, right? Yeah. Um, what is the percentage of narcissists in the country right now, do you think?

    21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula41:39

        This is a num- I mean, I'm gonna spitball a number, because we have never gotten good prevalent statistics. So here's the problem. There's this thing called narcissistic personality disorder that I don't even concern myself with. It is a, it's a clinical diagnosis that can only be issued by a mental health practitioner who spends enough time with a client to actually un- unfurl these patterns

    22. LHLewis Howes41:58

        And no narcissists are going to a therapist

    23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula42:00

        They're often not, and when they do, they're going in for a backdoor reason, like addiction, uh, depression, optics

    24. LHLewis Howes42:06

        A court order [laughs]

    25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula42:07

        A court order, being forced, ultimatum by a spouse, that kind of thing. So, and a lot of therapists don't issue it 'cause it's stigmatizing diagnosis and insurance. Well, you know what I'm saying? It's like the whole world of diagnosis is messy, and usually the way we figure out the prevalence of a disorder is what we call epidemiological studies, where people are brought in and st- like, they're actually just put through the interviews, and they're anonymous, and it's not going on any record, right?

    26. LHLewis Howes42:29

        Right

    27. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula42:30

        Those studies of NPD show one to 6% prevalence, right? But again-

    28. LHLewis Howes42:34

        In the country

    29. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula42:35

        In the, in the country, in the United States

    30. LHLewis Howes42:36

        Which is like the strong, on the spectrum of narcissism, they're at the, like, the highest
13. 43:32 – 46:53

    Different Types of Narcissism

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula43:32

       say probably closer to six, but we can go with four

    2. LHLewis Howes43:34

       Six

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula43:34

       Yeah. So-

    4. LHLewis Howes43:34

       What are the, what are the-

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula43:35

       So four, I would say grandiose, which is the traditional arrogant, pretentious, charming, charismatic, you know, kind of shiny narcissist. That's your kind of prototype of the narcissist. There's the vulnerable narcissist. This is probably, to me, the most compelling form of narcissism because this is where you see the sullenness, the petulance, the passive aggression, the chronic victimhood, the social anxiety, the failure to launch. These are people who live in fantasies of the great things they're gonna do, but they never do them

    6. LHLewis Howes44:05

       Wow

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula44:05

       The grandiose people actually often do get 'em done. They will talk the big game, and they'll kinda do the big game, you know?

    8. LHLewis Howes44:11

       So vulnerable doesn't mean they're actually intimate and vulnerable with you

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula44:14

       No, no, no, no, no

    10. LHLewis Howes44:15

        It means that they-

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula44:16

        They themselves are vulnerable [laughs]

    12. LHLewis Howes44:18

        ... talk a big game, but they don't actually take action

    13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula44:19

        Correct. And they ta- and, and they're-

    14. LHLewis Howes44:20

        They keep telling everyone, "I'm gonna do this project or this thing," and-

    15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula44:23

        "And you know why I couldn't do it? Because that guy didn't give me the money, and that guy was, scammed me, and that, you know, everyone takes advantage of me, and that person stole my idea." That's, that's that

    16. LHLewis Howes44:31

        The vulnerable, okay

    17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula44:32

        The vulnerable, okay? Then there's the malignant. Now, to me, the malignant narcissist is the most severe form of narcissism, and that's when we talk about stuff like the dark tetrad, and the dark tetrad is composed of narcissism, psychopathy, Machiavellianism, the willingness to take advantage of other people, and sadism. And I also believe paranoia sits in there, too, right? So in malignant narcissism, we're talking about people who are more coercive, who are more menacing

    18. LHLewis Howes44:58

        Mm

    19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula44:58

        ... who are more isolating. This feels a little bit more like psychopathy, but it's still narcissism, and that's much more severe. Okay? Then we have the communal narcissists

    20. LHLewis Howes45:08

        Communal

    21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula45:08

        Communal. And these are the folks who get... So all narcissistic folks need validation. The nar- the communal narcissistic folks are interesting 'cause they get their validation by being perceived as saviors, rescuers, and do-gooders

    22. LHLewis Howes45:21

        Like cult leaders or more-

    23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula45:22

        Ca- that's a severe f- so a cult leader would be a communal malignant narcissist. That would be-

    24. LHLewis Howes45:26

        Okay. Wow. Come on

    25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula45:27

        So these are like cocktails, right?

    26. LHLewis Howes45:28

        Jeez

    27. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula45:28

        These, like, you move every, you, you put it all together

    28. LHLewis Howes45:30

        Wow

    29. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula45:30

        So at the extreme, a communal malignant narcissist cult leader. But some communal narcissists can be, could be a mother who does all the activities and the PTA, and is the, is the, helps the Little League, and raises the money, and goes to the galas, and goes home and screams at her kids and is horrible and abuses her partner

    30. LHLewis Howes45:49

        But on the surface-
14. 46:53 – 50:27

    Self-Righteous Narcissism and Neglectful Narcissism

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula46:53

       your family. You're mean to your-

    2. LHLewis Howes46:54

       Got it

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula46:54

       ... people who work with you

    4. LHLewis Howes46:55

       You're inconsistent

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula46:56

       You're, well, you're, you're consistent. You're consistently mean to the people who are behind-

    6. LHLewis Howes47:00

       Ah, right

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula47:00

       ... the curtain. You're consistently-

    8. LHLewis Howes47:01

       Sure

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula47:01

       ... sort of putting on a show in front of the curtain

    10. LHLewis Howes47:03

        Yeah, yeah. But you're not-

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula47:03

        So-

    12. LHLewis Howes47:03

        ... consistent on both ways-

    13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula47:05

        No, no, no

    14. LHLewis Howes47:05

        ... of, like, service-

    15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula47:06

        That's, that's what it is

    16. LHLewis Howes47:06

        ... mindset.

    17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula47:07

        Yeah, mm-mm

    18. LHLewis Howes47:07

        Okay. Commu-

    19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula47:08

        No, communal

    20. LHLewis Howes47:08

        Communal

    21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula47:09

        And then there's the self-righteous narcissist, and the self-righteous narcissist is judgmental, moralistic, rigid. They're often funky with money. Um, they will, like, they will... This would be a kind of person who has, uh, so much money and someone in their family, uh, has a hardship. They, they had a job loss and then their kid needs, you know, needs medical care, and they'll say, "Well, I didn't create this situation, so I guess you'll have to figure it out"

    22. LHLewis Howes47:39

        They have no heart

    23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula47:40

        Like, this isn't, it, it feels like no heart-

    24. LHLewis Howes47:41

        Yeah

    25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula47:41

        ... but there's also this really rigid judgmental, and they judge people from the sense of, "Well, look at all I built. I guess I must have worked hard." They'll never account for their luck Right? Or sometimes their absence of bad luck, that kind of thing. They will say, if they say dinner's at 6:00 and you show up at 6:30 because your kid got sick, they'll say, "I'm sorry, we already ate." So it's very, it feels very-

    26. LHLewis Howes48:02

        Cold

    27. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula48:02

        ... rigid, cold, moralistic-

    28. LHLewis Howes48:04

        Ah

    29. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula48:04

        ... miserly, obsessive. These are people who are often workaholics and with little care for how it would affect-

    30. LHLewis Howes48:11

        Wow
15. 50:27 – 53:57

    Neglectful Narcissists and Emotional Socialization

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula50:27

       "why do you keep talking to me?" And people in relationships with neglectful narcissists will say, "I'll take it," 'cause at least that person was listening. But people in these relationships will literally feel like they're losing their minds because the person with them is literally not noticing, unless they need something from them.

    2. LHLewis Howes50:44

       Wow. So they're giving the cold shoulder. They don't speak to them for days.

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula50:48

       Yeah.

    4. LHLewis Howes50:48

       Whatever it might be.

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula50:48

       Yeah, whatever. They just don't notice. They don't care. They won't know. Like you might say, like, "I have the biggest presentation of the year next week." They won't even ask.

    6. LHLewis Howes50:55

       Wow. It's all about them.

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula50:57

       It's all, all about them, but in this weird way. But... And, and they don't even take notice-

    8. LHLewis Howes51:03

       Wow

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula51:03

       ... of other people. So it is a, um... People, uh, I've known clients in this experience, and they'll say, "It's as though I didn't exist, but then when I had the piece of information or something they needed, I existed." So you feel like a really neglected personal assistant.

    10. LHLewis Howes51:21

        Oh my gosh. [laughs] Now, have you seen any research on if men are more narcissistic than women?

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula51:31

        So n- it depends on the type of narcissism. Malignant and grandiose, definitely more men than women. Vulnerable narcissist, it's a dead heat.

    12. LHLewis Howes51:38

        Really?

    13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula51:39

        Mm-hmm.

    14. LHLewis Howes51:39

        What about just in general? Are women more narcissistic than men, or is it-

    15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula51:43

        Mm, I think in general, we're at a ti- at this point in history-

    16. LHLewis Howes51:45

        And it's social media and, you know-

    17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula51:47

        Yeah. So things are changing

    18. LHLewis Howes51:48

        ... the self- 促 销 of everything and the filterocation-

    19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula51:50

        Yeah

    20. LHLewis Howes51:50

        ... and constantly showing yourself. A lot of men are doing that, but it seems to be more women are doing that 'cause they're getting validated on social media.

    21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula51:58

        Correct. So the question becomes then, what we have to be careful is if a person's posting a lot to social media, getting the likes, influencer, all that, can't assume that every influencer is a narcissist, right? So I'd have to talk to them and say, "Are all influencers narcissistic?" No. Put them in front of me, and I wanna see what kind of human being they are. Let me spend a couple of days with you. I'll tell you then if they're narcissistic or not. I definitely think a narcissistic person would be a better influencer because they'd be able to do the job better because of what it requires-

    22. LHLewis Howes52:28

        Ah

    23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula52:28

        ... if that makes sense, right? Because it's very performative. It's very, how do I get the most validation? It's, it's, it, that's the outcome variable. So they're going to be stronger, just like a strong person would be better at loading trucks. I would not be good at that job. I could do it, but it'd be really slow.

    24. LHLewis Howes52:44

        Sure.

    25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula52:44

        It's the same thing with a really nice person's like, "Oh, I..." This is why I'm so bad at book promotion. I'm like, "I feel bad asking people to spend money."

    26. LHLewis Howes52:50

        [laughs]

    27. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula52:50

        They're like, "No, no, no, it's a good book. It's okay to ask them."

    28. LHLewis Howes52:52

        Yes.

    29. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula52:52

        But, like, I'm just not, I'm not good at that, so I just wouldn't... But I'm saying some people are really good at that because th- that narcissistic quality. That's why narcissistic people are great salespeople, and that's why they're so successful. In fact, that's why they're over-represented in CEO ranks, because CEOs often come up through the sales kind of-

    30. LHLewis Howes53:09

        Sure
16. 53:57 – 57:34

    The Gendered Experience of Emotions in Boys and Men

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula53:57

       games, right? They're allowed to cry, and we're fine with it and we comfort them. But if a boys does that, they, they s- they're, they might have to face the, the humiliation with their peers. They might have to face anger from a parent. And so I think boys and men are still not... I think we've come a long way, don't get me wrong, but we've got a ways to go. And because of that, that emotion's gotta go somewhere, and I think that can often become a core wound that can show up as narcissistic defenses.

    2. LHLewis Howes54:25

       Wow.

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula54:25

       So I think women ha- are, are allowed to do that. Women also are socialized for more sociality. They're, they're trained more, if you will- Well, not trained. Raised more, socialized more to turn to others for support and help. And men-

    4. LHLewis Howes54:38

       Yeah.

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula54:38

       What i- the whole colonoscopy test.

    6. LHLewis Howes54:40

       Yeah, of course.

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula54:40

       Ask a 50-year-old guy if you've got someone to drive you home from your colonoscopy who's not your wife.

    8. LHLewis Howes54:45

       Right.

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula54:45

       And a lot of men say-

    10. LHLewis Howes54:46

        No

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula54:46

        ... "I don't have someone."

    12. LHLewis Howes54:47

        Right.

    13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula54:47

        And that's a bad, bad answer. So the colonoscopy test is a great example of how so- And I have, like, and I know most women say, "I have like 15 people I could call."

    14. LHLewis Howes54:56

        Right, right, right.

    15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula54:56

        Lots of people would bring me home from my colonoscopy.

    16. LHLewis Howes54:58

        Who's to blame for creating narcissists?

    17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula55:02

        I mean, it's... Listen, this is a social developmental phenomenon, right? They're not bo- No one's born narcissistic.

    18. LHLewis Howes55:08

        Really?

    19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula55:08

        Right? If you wanna use that definition, every baby's narcissistic 'cause they're not helping and they're not paying attention to your feelings, but they're expecting you to do all this stuff for them, right? But it's a... Babies are born, children are born, small people, have temperaments, right? You had one. I had w- And if you ask your parent about what your temperament was like, some kids are s- And if you have siblings, you might have all had different temperaments.

    20. LHLewis Howes55:29

        Uh-huh.

    21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula55:30

        Okay? And some kids are easy, and they soothe easy, and they laugh a lot, and they go to sleep, and you can take them anywhere, and they're just lovely. And that's just, and they often grow up to be lovely people.

    22. LHLewis Howes55:40

        Mm.

    23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula55:41

        And then some kids are just tough.

    24. LHLewis Howes55:43

        Mm.

    25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula55:43

        They're, they're just like a screwed up tantrum ready to happen from the day they're born. They don't soothe easily. They don't sleep well. They, they're, um, they're fussy. And then as they grow up, they might be more externalizing. They act out more. They get in more trouble in school. Those are, in fact, when those... They're often the kids I'm always like, "Get this kid into sports."

    26. LHLewis Howes56:02

        Yeah.

    27. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula56:02

        Because this is gonna be such a great channel for this kid. Like, something physical. Like, just something. Teach them to climb.

    28. LHLewis Howes56:07

        Get the energy out. Yeah.

    29. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula56:07

        Something. And, and so they'll get that validation, but sit in school at a desk all day, it's tough for those kids. And so they get a lot of invalidation, kids with that more externalizing. But there can be kids who have that kind of go, go, go temperament, but who aren't difficult. They're as sweet kids, but they just wanna move, right? But that more difficult, antagonistic, it almost feels like a four-year-old who's gunning for a fight-

    30. LHLewis Howes56:31

        Sure
17. 57:34 – 1:01:11

    The Impact of Parenting on Narcissistic Traits

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula57:34

       significant, there are other people around the kids. There, beyond parents, there's other caregivers. There's grandparents.

    2. LHLewis Howes57:39

       Coaches, teachers.

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula57:39

       There's coaches-

    4. LHLewis Howes57:40

       Yeah

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula57:40

       ... teachers. And so all of those people shape that in the kid.

    6. LHLewis Howes57:44

       Mm.

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula57:45

       But in some cases, it's not just a neglect pathway. There's also parents who tell their kids, "You're more special than anybody else. You're the most special kid. No line for you. No waiting for you."

    8. LHLewis Howes57:54

       If parents do that to their child, where they tell them, "You're the most special thing in the world and you deserve everything you want. I'm gonna give it to you, and you deserve to cut the lines," or whatever, what are you saying to that child?

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula58:06

       You're telling them... So these kids go on one of two very different pathways. One group of them go on to become narcissistic. "Well, I am more special than everyone else, so..."

    10. LHLewis Howes58:14

        My mom told me I was, so I am. Yeah.

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula58:14

        "... you know, that's what my mom told me, and so I am." And so they'll be very demanding in the classroom. They'll be demanding with peers. They'll be entitled. They'll walk through life entitled, right? That sort of spoiled little rich kid kind of model, right? But another group of them who may not have shared that temperament, this different group, will grow up with a tremendous sense of shame. You know, that like, "I'm not more special." And so they'll feel there's this sort of inner conflict that happens. You know, like, "I'm not more special-

    12. LHLewis Howes58:39

        "Well, I'm not as smart as this person or talented."

    13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula58:41

        ... or I better perform in a way that shows that I'm special." So if things don't go the way they want, then they feel bad. And there's a new phenomenon I saw documented, that with all the sort of helicopter-y over-parenting we're seeing, that some of these kids who are like, "Okay, my parents kinda did everything for me. I kinda can't do a- not much for myself."

    14. LHLewis Howes59:00

        Uh-oh.

    15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula59:00

        You're seeing a vulnerable narcissism form in them where they're almost angry at the parents who made it too easy. So nobody, no parent wins at this, I can tell you now, and it's very painful for parents whom... I, I'll tell you where this is the most painful, 'cause I always, I, I know how painful it is for an, a parent who has an adult child who's narcissistic, right? Because those parents will often sit and say, "I know something in that early environment had-"

    16. LHLewis Howes59:24

        Ugh

    17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula59:24

        ... "something to do with it." And the most painful cases, it's when a person, a lovely person, who's married to a narcissistic person, and that toxic environment against that kid's temperament or the, the, or the narcissistic parent really indoctrinated that child. And, and to w- and to, I've watched parents go through this, and it, it's really a living hell because it's really where you have some of your most unconditional love, and it's your kid, and your kid hates you and is behaving this terrible-

    18. LHLewis Howes59:50

        Oh, my gosh

    19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula59:51

        ... manipulative, entitled, brutal way. It is absolutely awful. I, when I've wor- I have to say that is the clinical population, the group of clients that's the most difficult and heartbreaking for me, are the parents of adult children with narcissism.

    20. LHLewis Howes1:00:07

        'Cause they have to watch their kids live with that

    21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:00:09

        And they feel partly responsible

    22. LHLewis Howes1:00:10

        And they're like, "Oh, I raised that child"

    23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:00:11

        I raised that child. What did I do?

    24. LHLewis Howes1:00:13

        What did I do wrong-

    25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:00:14

        Yeah

    26. LHLewis Howes1:00:14

        ... to cause this?

    27. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:00:15

        So there's a tremendous sense of moral injury

    28. LHLewis Howes1:00:17

        Oh, shame and guilt and everything

    29. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:00:18

        There's shame, there's guilt, there's loss, there's grief. Um, it's terrible. It's the worst

    30. LHLewis Howes1:00:23

        And you have to live with that for the rest of your life
18. 1:01:11 – 1:04:29

    The Importance of Attunement in Relationships and Parenting

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:01:11

       but not all of them, is, um, so have you ever talked to anyone, like, from the, who does the Gottman therapist, who does Gottman-esque work?

    2. LHLewis Howes1:01:17

       Oh, I love those guys. Yeah, the two, the Gottmans?

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:01:19

       The Gottmans.

    4. LHLewis Howes1:01:20

       Yeah, I wanna have them on. I haven't had them on yet.

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:01:21

       Okay, so you should

    6. LHLewis Howes1:01:22

       But I love their work, yeah

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:01:23

       But what's interesting is, you know, 'cause Gottman's work actually doesn't always work well with narcissism

    8. LHLewis Howes1:01:27

       Narcissists. [laughs]

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:01:28

       Narcissistic couples, but where, what I, one thing I do like about the Gottman model is he talks a lot about attunement, right? And I think that that model of attunement matters even more in parenting. So what Gottman talks about is that how important is, for example, in a couple, you know, and I'm sure you saw this, this whole phenomenon on TikTok play out, which was this idea of the bird test. Did you hear about the bird test on TikTok?

    10. LHLewis Howes1:01:50

        Yeah, where it's like-

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:01:51

        Right? That I-

    12. LHLewis Howes1:01:51

        ... someone's paying attention or asking about the birds or yeah, something like that

    13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:01:54

        And you have to attune. So the whole idea is, like, if you're in a relationship with someone, and even if they're asking you to pay attention to something as trivial as, like, "Look how pretty that bird is out the window," that was the whole TikTok trend, was that the partner would actually lift from what they were doing and do it

    14. LHLewis Howes1:02:06

        Oh, yeah, that was interesting

    15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:02:07

        That's attunement, right? That many times when you're in relationships, you're saying, "How do we know a relationship's healthy?" That you don't keep scrolling on the phone. Like, you even say, like, you might turn to your partner and say, "Oh, my God, that is so cool. Give me one second. I really wanna come pay attention to that." And maybe you have to turn off a button so you don't burn down the house, and you're like, "Okay, let me come see this," right?

    16. LHLewis Howes1:02:25

        Yes. That's attunement

    17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:02:25

        So that's attunement. Children need that more than an adult does.

    18. LHLewis Howes1:02:29

        Mm

    19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:02:29

        So for the child to know that when they make that call to the parent, that the parent responds to... Maybe parent doesn't mean, mean a parent drops what they're doing. But the parent will be like, "Hey, sweetie. What? Oh, cool, give me a second. I'm gonna come right over and see," and then you do go and see. That-

    20. LHLewis Howes1:02:44

        As opposed to neglect constantly

    21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:02:45

        So, like, you know, either literally ignoring them, or continuing to watch the TV, or, uh, this is the one I see all the time, is the parents on the phone

    22. LHLewis Howes1:02:53

        Parents in front of kids looking at their dad or their mom saying, "Hey, look at me," and they're just not paying attention

    23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:02:57

        And the parents are on the phone. I mean, I've seen parents walking their kid in a stroller, and the, the stroller literally has a thing that allows them to be on their phone, and I'm like, "No, this is such a good moment to stare at the baby."

    24. LHLewis Howes1:03:06

        Be present. Yeah, yeah, yeah

    25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:03:07

        And be present. So attunement, and so that the child knows that what, num- uh, number one. Number two, listen to their needs without judgment. So when the-

    26. LHLewis Howes1:03:17

        What if you're like, "I know that they don't need this"?

    27. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:03:19

        Okay, so but let's say the child says, "I need three new video games," okay? You'd say, "Okay, let's talk about that. You got one video game, and that video game's working fine." You might wanna talk to them and say, like, "Listen, you know, uh, the, we can talk a little about how we got that video game."

    28. LHLewis Howes1:03:33

        Right, right

    29. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:03:33

        But w- my point is that you're not saying, "You spoiled piece of you-know-what. How dare you ask me for a video game?" But that's usually not what kids are asking for. You know what ki- when a kid is expressing a need, "Mommy, will you come, you know,"

    30. LHLewis Howes1:03:46

        They're, like, bored or something
19. 1:04:29 – 1:08:34

    The Importance of Being Present for Your Children

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:04:29

       again, I say this as a woman who is a working mother, okay? And I was a single working mother. So there was, I was working multiple jobs when I had young kids.

    2. LHLewis Howes1:04:37

       Mm-hmm

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:04:37

       And so it'd sometimes be like, "Set it up. I need to grade one more paper, and then we're doing some Chutes and Ladders," right?

    4. LHLewis Howes1:04:43

       Sure, sure, yeah

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:04:44

       So then we would-

    6. LHLewis Howes1:04:45

       Give me 20 minutes or whatever

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:04:45

       Right, yeah. Not even, like 10, 15

    8. LHLewis Howes1:04:47

       Sure, sure, sure

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:04:47

       And so I'd like, "And here I come," right? But even still, my parents will say, my parents, even s- still sometimes my kids will say, "You know, it was hard. You were often looking at that screen working. We know you were working, but it still hurt." So I, I know that I didn't, I certainly didn't get that right. But I would say never shame their needs. So when, even when they say, like... It's, it could even be little things like, "Could we, could we go to the park? Could we take a walk? Could we throw a ball?" Right? That's what a kid wants. How many men I've heard say, "All I wanted was a [censored] to throw a baseball with me."

    10. LHLewis Howes1:05:22

        Right. Yeah

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:05:23

        That's it. And it was never about the baseball.

    12. LHLewis Howes1:05:25

        The spending time

    13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:05:25

        Think about what throwing a ball is.

    14. LHLewis Howes1:05:27

        Yeah

    15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:05:27

        Right? It's the ultimate attunement, right? You're going back and forth. That somebody-

    16. LHLewis Howes1:05:32

        You have to pay attention

    17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:05:32

        ... you have to pay attention. And so that's what throwing a ball is. And so it's be- being available to your children, understanding when... And, and if, like I said, if we get it right 80% of the time, they'll figure out the other 20. That's another one. And number three, empathy, empathy, empathy, empathy. Model it, live it, show it. And that means not just, like, you're only attu- It's not just empathy for their feelings. It's that they're seeing you have empathy to their other parent or to a family member

    18. LHLewis Howes1:06:03

        Animals

    19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:06:03

        ... or to an animal or to a, um, uh, the person who comes and, and delivered something, and you say thank you, and you make eye contact. Grocery store, everywhere Because your child is a sponge and they see that empathy. And the other place to do it, I, so something I re- do remember doing with my kid... Kid, if you're listening, I did do this with you, by the way

    20. LHLewis Howes1:06:25

        [laughs]

    21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:06:26

        I, um, we would read a story, a book, and then afterwards I'd say, "So how do you think the bear felt? Like, that bear was really sad. Why do you think the bear was sad?" Well, the other bears were kinda weren't sharing with him. That, that's... So take the book, and it's not... And same with a TV show. So you'd watch a TV show-

    22. LHLewis Howes1:06:45

        Reflection

    23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:06:46

        ... how do you... It's, it's beyond reflection. It's like li- lifting out the empathy. Like, how do you think that character, person... You can do that well into adolescence. When the movie stops, how'd you feel? How did that movie leave you feeling? And the amount of conversation. It c- I don't care if it's a Star Wars, Marvel Universe-

    24. LHLewis Howes1:07:06

        Interesting

    25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:07:06

        ... ma- martial arts, you sit there and say, "How did you feel about that?" Some of the most powerful conversations I've had with my children to this day have been after we watched a film. Some of the most intimate conversations have come out of after we watched a film, because it becomes a catalyst, right?

    26. LHLewis Howes1:07:25

        That's cool.

    27. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:07:25

        And so from early on when we were watching whatever Sesame Street something or other, and, um, you know, I remember m- you know, my daughter, like, getting upset at someone was being mean to Elmo, and I'm like, "Are you worried about Elmo?" She's like... And she, you know, she'd have the best... She, "Yes!" And I'm like, "I understand that. That's so kind of you to be worried about Elmo."

    28. LHLewis Howes1:07:45

        Ooh, that's cool.

    29. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:07:45

        We have to grab these moments.

    30. LHLewis Howes1:07:46

        Encouraging that empathy. Yeah.
20. 1:08:34 – 1:12:28

    The Difficulty of Forgiving Narcissistic Abuse

    1. LHLewis Howes1:08:34

       someone who's hurt us so badly as a narcissist?

    2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:08:38

       Maybe we don't. Maybe we don't. I have to tell you that something that's very important to me is that no one ever feels that they have to forgive someone for hijacking their soul, because maybe there is no forgiveness for that. The pressure to forgive has led some people to feel guilty their whole lives, prematurely forgive. There's a really interesting body of literature out there that suggests that if we forgive someone who re-perpetrates, it significantly harms the wellbeing of the forgiver.

    3. LHLewis Howes1:09:16

       Mm.

    4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:09:17

       So all of our research, forgive, you'll feel better, forgive, you'll free yourself, not so much, because not everyone leaves these relationships. Some people continue to have contact with the family members. They continue to stay in the relationship. They may not have a choice. Not everyone can leave. This isn't as simple as, "You're narcissistic, I'm leaving this relationship." It's not how it works most of the time. It's, "I've got this really toxic parent and I still have to interact with them. I have this really toxic ex-partner and then we still have to raise kids together. I have a toxic marriage and I'm staying in it." Right? And so, and these are people who have, who have broken people down to their core, left them feeling like they're not enough, left them feeling that they are, they were worthless people, left them not knowing who they were anymore, left them doubting reality. Is that forgivable? I'm not so sure. And so I will always tell everyone I work with, this is a personal decision. It is not right to forgive. It is not right to not forgive. It is not wrong to forgive. It is not wrong to not forgive. You have to do what makes you whole. If you look at the definition of forgiveness in the dictionary, it says it is to, it's to cease to, cease to feel resentment. Let it go and cease to feel resentment. And I ask them, "Do you not feel resentment and resentful?" And they're like, "I feel resentment and resentful." Oh, they say, "You didn't forgive them if you still feel resentful as hell." So, resentment does not push forward healing. I think that it's one more place where people are forced to be inauthentic. You, it... Some people will say, and I'll, I'll be frank with you, Lewis, I've had, I have a, probably I can think of a half a dozen people, narcissistic people in my life I am now no contact with, some I still have contact with. I don't forgive them. I will never forgive them.

    5. LHLewis Howes1:10:59

       Really?

    6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:10:59

       Never.

    7. LHLewis Howes1:10:59

       Even if you never speak to them again?

    8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:11:00

       No, I don't speak to them again, and I will never forgive them what they did to me. Because what they, they, they... It changed my view on myself. I spent years crawling out from under that rubble. I still doubt myself. I still don't feel safe in the world. They took away my safety. How the hell do you forgive that? I don't. And I, and I sleep fine at night.

    9. LHLewis Howes1:11:24

       That's good. [laughs] I guess as long as you feel at peace.

    10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:11:26

        Right? I feel totally at peace.

    11. LHLewis Howes1:11:27

        Well, that's good to hear.

    12. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:11:28

        Because what bothers me is I know they're out there doing this to other people.

    13. LHLewis Howes1:11:31

        Yeah.

    14. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:11:31

        How do you forgive that?

    15. LHLewis Howes1:11:32

        That's frustrating. That's frustrating. I guess the thing would be how do we find peace even if we don't forgive someone?

    16. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:11:37

        I think the people who don't forgive definitely feel peace.

    17. LHLewis Howes1:11:39

        Okay.

    18. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:11:40

        I think people who don't feel peace are the people who forgive and keep getting harmed.

    19. LHLewis Howes1:11:44

        Oh, that's true.

    20. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:11:44

        Are the people who forgive and didn't, weren't ready to forgive. Healing from narcissistic abuse is individuating, becoming autonomous, and ultimately rising into your authentic self. That's what it is. And your authentic self may not forgive, and that's okay.

    21. LHLewis Howes1:12:03

        Wow. [sighs] If you don't forgive, do you feel like you can truly heal?

    22. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:12:08

        Yes, 100%. 100%. Because not forgiving is an acknowledgement, right? I have talked to people who have- Their children were turned against them. How do you forgive that? I have talked to people where their narcissistic partner put their kids in harm's way. How do you forgive that?

21. 1:12:28 – 1:16:11

    The Treachery of Forgiveness

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:12:28

       I have talked to people who have watched their life savings get squandered by a n- how do you forgive that? How do you forgive these things? And those are just practical, I mean, children is, are f- emotional, but, like, some of them are practical. But I actually think the worst part is that this is somebody who left you feeling not enough, like there was something wrong with you when you were bringing the best of yourself forward. I have a problem with that.

    2. LHLewis Howes1:12:53

       Yeah.

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:12:53

       And I, I, and I tell folks, some people get there. You know, some people will say, "I was 10 years out. I fell in love with someone. I learned more about myself. I recognized that they were the one who were, who, the one, they were the ones who were carrying all the wounds, and I did forgive them." But many people will say, "I was not able to forgive until I went no contact."

    4. LHLewis Howes1:13:17

       Yeah. You had a lot of time to heal, and space, and-

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:13:20

       And I'd not, and not be harmed by them

    6. LHLewis Howes1:13:21

       ... yeah, yeah, yeah

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:13:21

       They said, some people say, "I forgave after they died."

    8. LHLewis Howes1:13:24

       Right.

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:13:25

       You know? So they didn't hear it. But I think that we have this big pressure of forgive and everything will be fine.

    10. LHLewis Howes1:13:29

        You don't have to forgive them, like say it to them, but more to yourself.

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:13:31

        Internally.

    12. LHLewis Howes1:13:32

        Say, yeah.

    13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:13:32

        Right. But I, and I, in the cases I'm talking about, these people, I don't forgive them.

    14. LHLewis Howes1:13:36

        Wow.

    15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:13:36

        I really, really don't. I, uh, it was wrong. It was wrong, and I know they keep doing wrong, and they, and it harms me because, like, it, it changed my insides.

    16. LHLewis Howes1:13:46

        Right.

    17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:13:47

        And while I can take responsibility for my insides, why w- w- that wasn't okay.

    18. LHLewis Howes1:13:53

        Mm-hmm.

    19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:13:53

        And I, and I'm very, very clear on this, uh, with survivors. That's why in that, that section of the book is called The Treachery of Forgiveness.

    20. LHLewis Howes1:13:59

        The Treachery of Forgiveness.

    21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:14:02

        It's, it's, uh, it's [laughs] I mean, I, I mean, anyone wants to hate on me for it, I'm like, uh, br- bring it because I would say talk to a survivor. Talk to s- and I hope there's survivors listening to this who say, "Thank you for giving me that f- permission." Some people will say, "Look, I got to 85." I've w- I've worked with older survivors, and some of them will s- and some folks have been, for example, through sys- like family systems, they'll say, "Never." I, I will... I've heard the range of it, and it's a, um-

    22. LHLewis Howes1:14:30

        Yeah

    23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:14:30

        ... a- and I'll tell you, and, and some people, listen, some people will say things that might seem mild to other people. Like, you can't forgive that? I said, "If they can't forgive that, then they can't forgive that. Accept that." You know? And, and these are not petty people. They really aren't. And they're not, and I, the, the criticism I've heard people get when they say they don't forgive is like, "You're petty. You're, you're the one with all the anger."

    24. LHLewis Howes1:14:52

        Mm.

    25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:14:52

        "You're the one with all the hate in your heart." I'm like, "No, they're not. No, they're not." That this is a, it's a very personal decision.

    26. LHLewis Howes1:14:59

        Yeah.

    27. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:14:59

        But I think because we view it as a, a one-size-fits-all, and I think that then what happens is people can then allow their proc- in fact, healing is easier when you know you don't have to forgive because forgiveness is about the other person. Everyone's like, "No, forgiveness is about yourself." No, it's not. Because you know what a narcissistic person does with forgiveness? They're like, "Get out of j-"

    28. LHLewis Howes1:15:18

        Let me get back in there

    29. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:15:19

        ... get out of jail free card. I guess I get to do this again.

    30. LHLewis Howes1:15:21

        Nothing I did was wrong. Yeah.
22. 1:16:11 – 1:19:43

    Tools for Healing from Narcissistic Abuse

    1. LHLewis Howes1:16:11

       Not You: Identifying and Healing from Narcissistic People. Again, there's, there's so many more things we could talk about today, but I want people to dive into the book to get this information. You've done years-

    2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:16:21

       Yeah

    3. LHLewis Howes1:16:22

       ... of research.

    4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:16:22

       Yeah.

    5. LHLewis Howes1:16:23

       Uh, uh, decades of research, I'm assuming now at this point, and, um, one of the leaders, uh, on narcissism in the world. Um, you work with clients weekly. You speak about it. Your YouTube channel is massive. You have a big podcast, and now this book, It's Not You. So if you are someone who is struggling in a relationship, get this book and learn more tools about how to create specific boundaries if you can't get out of the relationship, how to effectively take care of yourself when in harm, how to make sure you're setting yourself up for safety, uh, if you're unable to leave the relationship, things like that. You talk about things like that in here, and so much more. Um, if you know someone who keeps coming to you for advice and is struggling in a relationship, and you think maybe this might be a, a narcissistic person or have tendencies, and they could he- you could help your friend with tools, get them this book to have tools to support them on their suffering relationship journey. Um, and anyone else you can think of that might need this book, It's Not You: Identifying and Healing from Narcissistic People. Uh, Dr. Ramani, is there anything else we can do to serve you today besides making sure to follow you on social media, YouTube, getting the book? How else can we be of service?

    6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:17:44

       So again, belief, for s- I'm gonna say in a macro, when people Don't shame people. When people say, "I think I might be in a relationship with someone narcissistic," like, don't shame them immediately, 'cause that's what a lot of people get. "Oh, everyone's saying that on TikTok. You don't know if that's the right word." Because people who are suffering with this are suffering. If a friend says to you, "This might be happening in my life," instead of judging them or shaming them, just say, "What's going on in the relationship?" Like, "Let's talk it out." So just, uh, I think we can all be a listening ear to someone for a moment, and sometimes that makes all the difference in the world. To get this wor- work out into the world, though, so more people hear it, go to my website, drramani.com. Please, oh please, buy the book. Um, we ha- people who want to do a deeper dive in healing, though, we have a monthly healing program. People can join at any time. So those of you who are going through this and say, "I, I want..." And it, it'll be beautifully, 'cause it's gonna parallel, like the book becomes a beautiful manual, but we've been going for, oh gosh, a year and a half now, so we're going, we're going strong. Beautiful-

    7. LHLewis Howes1:18:40

       Where can they go for that?

    8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:18:41

       ... amazing community.

    9. LHLewis Howes1:18:42

       Yeah.

    10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:18:42

        Go to my website and then you can find the link for it and join us, and-

    11. LHLewis Howes1:18:45

        What's-

    12. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:18:45

        ... try it out for a month. It's ju-

    13. LHLewis Howes1:18:46

        What's the community called?

    14. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:18:47

        It's, it's just Our Healing from Narcissistic Abuse.

    15. LHLewis Howes1:18:49

        Wow.

    16. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:18:49

        It's simple, and you go to it e- we meet every month, workshop every month, a Q&A every month.

    17. LHLewis Howes1:18:53

        That's big.

    18. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:18:54

        Fantastic community platform. Three journal prompts a week, guided meditation every month. And so it's, it is an amazing community. I have to tell you, I've pr- I've... Part of this book is dedicated to that community-

    19. LHLewis Howes1:19:05

        That's cool

    20. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:19:05

        ... because they have been so remarkable, and I've seen amazing things happen, and the support they give each other, 'cause we, we moderate that platform 12 times a day so no one can get in there and do harm. I take it very seriously.

    21. LHLewis Howes1:19:16

        That's cool.

    22. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:19:17

        So come join us there if you wanna do, again, the deeper dive into healing above and beyond this. Read the book, talk about it, go to our social media, go to our YouTube channel. We have new content every single day. And so there's lots of places to find me.

    23. LHLewis Howes1:19:32

        That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Get the book. Uh, I asked you before about your three truths and your definition of greatness. I'm curious, I'm gonna ask you a different question to end.

23. 1:19:43 – 1:23:17

    Giving Life a Chance

    1. LHLewis Howes1:19:43

       If you could go to the, uh, the last day for you many years away-

    2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:19:46

       Uh-huh

    3. LHLewis Howes1:19:47

       ... live as long as you wanna live-

    4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:19:49

       Uh-huh

    5. LHLewis Howes1:19:49

       ... but you could share only one piece of advice to your younger self-

    6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:19:53

       Mm

    7. LHLewis Howes1:19:54

       ... what would that piece of advice be? If you could look yourself metaphorically in the face and speak to your 15, 20, 25-year-old self before, you know, all the pain, challenges, and all the service that you got into, what piece of advice would you give?

    8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:20:12

       Give life a chance. Because I think I often rushed trying to hit benchmarks. I gotta, gotta do this on this schedule and this on this schedule, and if I don't, it'll be too late, and all of that. And so I would really say give life a chance. In all my rushing, I think I sometimes did things too quick because I was so afraid the opportunity wouldn't come again. And so, you know, listen, Lewis, I look back at... I'm, I'm, I'm a lot older than you, and so the beauty of the, getting old is so great. It's so great. I'm probably the only woman in the world who says that, but it's so great. And what's so great about it is it's like, it's like living in this beautiful data-driven world where you have all the evidence now. You're like, "Okay, this theory has now been upheld," or, "I've now talked to enough people," and, and now, and you're starting to lose people, and you're watching your friends lose their parents. And so you're, or your friends are getting sick sometimes, and you're getting this different sort of view on life. But I, this, first of all, now e- when I... A- a- David Kessler put it beautifully. Like, when I, we were talking to each other on our birthday, I'm like, he taught me, like, I just got another birthday. Like, this is so... Everyone's like, "Oh, don't talk to me about them." Like, talk to me about it. I just got another birthday. Like, I am so happy. So there is a, um... I now feel a usefulness in me. I don't feel so hemmed in by, like, "I gotta do this, and I gotta get this, and I gotta get married, and I gotta have the kids, and I got..." I'm like, this is so f- I feel like I'm a 58-year-old woman trapped in, like, a 29-year-old entrepreneur's... No, 20, I'm a... Yes, I'm trapped in the, uh, that I'm a 29-year-old entrepreneur-

    9. LHLewis Howes1:21:41

       Happy to hear that

    10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:21:41

        ... trapped in a 58-year-old woman's body. And so I do need a little bit more sleep and probably have to go to the bathroom more than I do.

    11. LHLewis Howes1:21:46

        [laughs]

    12. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:21:47

        But I, um, I love getting older. I mean, I, you know, talk to me when the hip starts going and every- everything actually has started going. I'm like a car where you're like, "Do we trade this in for parts, or do we, like, keep fixing it?"

    13. LHLewis Howes1:21:58

        [laughs]

    14. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:21:58

        But I have to say that in line with that, of give life a chance, for the first time I am giving life a chance.

    15. LHLewis Howes1:22:04

        Mm.

    16. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:22:04

        Like, interesting opportunities come up. I'm like, "Eh, let's do it." My team's like, "Are you sure? That feels like a risk." I'm like, at this age, is anything a risk? And I'm not that, it's not like I'm 90.

    17. LHLewis Howes1:22:13

        Right.

    18. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:22:13

        But, like, again-

    19. LHLewis Howes1:22:13

        Let's go for it.

    20. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:22:14

        It's, I mean, yeah.

    21. LHLewis Howes1:22:14

        Yeah.

    22. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:22:14

        Exactly. I, I just feel as though... And even then, I mean, I was talking to Lisa Bilyeu, a common, a, a f- a friend of both of our... She interviewed someone who's 103, just wrote a book. And I looked at Lisa and I said, "I wanna be 103, write a book." You know, Judith Herman, she was 82 when she wrote that.

    23. LHLewis Howes1:22:28

        Wow.

    24. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:22:28

        I mean, these are... I see the power of, of that wisdom and I, again, I love getting older. And, like, nobody critiques you for staying home on Saturday. I'm like, "Well, that's where old people are supposed to be."

    25. LHLewis Howes1:22:39

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    26. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:22:39

        And I'm like, yeah, that's right, that's where I need to be. So I just put a blanket on my knees. Like, I'm, I'm gonna be so good at 90. Like, I'm gonna be the best 90 you've ever seen.

    27. LHLewis Howes1:22:47

        That's amazing.

    28. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:22:47

        I'm gonna rock it. So I love it, and I feel like every day is that. I, I now am actually allowing myself to be excited about opportunities 'cause I'm no longer living to what other people want from me. And so I think I'm, I'm sort of living in my humanist heaven right now.

    29. LHLewis Howes1:23:01

        Well, that's cool. Well, appreciate you for your service.

    30. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:23:05

        Thank you.
24. 1:23:17 – 1:23:34

    The Percolation of Passive Aggression

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:23:17

       that sense, like it's almost like it starts to percolate up out of the groundwater, that's when you'll see all kinds of things, passive aggression, which is what you were up against, um, a sullenness, resentment, um, sometimes overt aggression because they're trying to s- to protect themselves against this threat

Episode duration: 1:23:34