Human LIE DETECTOR (How to Read Anyone!) | Top Facial Expression Expert Annie Särnblad

Annie Särnblad 0:00 Microexpressions are the very deepest of listening skills

Lewis Howes 0:02 You can tell easily if someone's lying based on facial expressions.

Annie Särnblad 0:05 Yes, because the facial expression won't match the words. [heartbeat] I had a meeting once, I leaned forward and I said, "You're a good leader. I can make you a great leader." And the guy's jaw goes on ding and I tripped him up.

Lewis Howes 0:16 [laughs]

Annie Särnblad 0:19 We never hold our upper eyelids pulled way back, except when we're nuts.

Lewis Howes 0:24 When you're a psychopath.

Annie Särnblad 0:25 Watch when I take the bottom half of my face and turn it into joy or arousal or cheerfulness.

Lewis Howes 0:32 That is weird. If someone's going out on a date or dating someone or they're in a relationship, how do they really know the difference between a potential narcissist or a sociopath or someone who's out of alignment versus someone that could be a healthy conscious relationship?

Annie Särnblad 0:45 So first of all, it's a great question.

Lewis Howes 0:48 I think you gotta have a dream.

Annie Särnblad 0:50 The School of Greatness.

Lewis Howes 0:51 Really? [laughs] Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 0:52 Please welcome Lewis Howes.

Lewis Howes 0:54 Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest. We have the inspiring Annie Särnblad in the house. Good to see you.

Annie Särnblad 1:01 Nice to see you.

Lewis Howes 1:01 Thank you so much for being here.

Annie Särnblad 1:02 Thank you for having me.

Lewis Howes 1:03 I just wanna share a quick bio about you. You're often referred to as a human lie detector. You're a globally recognized speaker and strategic advisor to some of the most powerful human beings in the world, specifically in Fortune 500 companies. And the author of this new book called The Diary of a Human Lie Detector: Facial Expressions in Love, Lust and Lies.

Annie Särnblad 1:22 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:23 And already, um, within first 15 minutes of meeting you, I felt like you have so much more information than I knew you had by just analyzing my facial expression and by giving me some cues already about what I'm doing, and I guess things I could improve on potentially. But you have seen a lot, and you've studied a lot. There's actually a certification that you have. What is it called? This, um, FACS? It is called FACS, which is- What is it called? Which is Facial Action Coding Systems, and it is a background on scientifically backed glo- um, e- microexpressions and the ability to numeral- numerically code 10,000 muscle combinations in human expression. For me, I don't

Lewis Howes 2:05 know how you do that because it just seems like, how many facial expressions are there, first off, that we can put words on? And what are the ones that we should be really looking for when we're first meeting or interacting with anyone, whether it's a potential, uh, love interest, whether it's a potential friend, a, a business colleague or partner, uh, a boss. What should we be looking for, and how many, how many facial expressions are there?

Annie Särnblad 2:32 Okay, so that's, that's a lot of questions at once.

Lewis Howes 2:35 Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 2:35 That's really exciting. So let me start off with the Facial Action Coding System, um, was developed, um, by a couple of behavioral scientists-

Lewis Howes 2:44 Okay

Annie Särnblad 2:44 ... uh, based on the work of Darwin.

Lewis Howes 2:46 Okay.

Annie Särnblad 2:46 Darwin was, uh, wrote in 1872 about the expressions of man and animals, and he realized that going from tribe to tribe where people had no connection to each other, that he could start, and he did years and years of going into civilizations where people didn't have connection to much of the outside world. He started to write down and chart and dissect the different muscle combinations in human expression because he started to notice even if he didn't understand the language, he could see if someone was angry, if they were happy, if they were afraid, if they were feeling, um, surprise, for example. And, but those facial expressions were the same. So the work that I'm doing, it's ironic because I'm an anthropologist, so I should be looking at culture, right? But the work that I'm doing is hardwired into us. It's the universal language of humans, us as a species. Doesn't matter geography, doesn't matter, um, your age, your socialization. Even people who are born blind make the same-

Lewis Howes 3:49 Really?

Annie Särnblad 3:49 ... facial expressions. It's universal.

Lewis Howes 3:51 Universal. Doesn't matter what language you speak, doesn't matter where you're from in the world.

Annie Särnblad 3:56 Correct.

Lewis Howes 3:56 We all make similar-

Annie Särnblad 3:58 Right

Lewis Howes 3:58 ... facial expressions.

Annie Särnblad 3:59 Okay.

Annie Särnblad 4:00 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 4:00 Is, is facial expression, do we all make similar body expressions too? And are they different, facial expression and body language?

Annie Särnblad 4:07 So body language varies from person to person. You and your, um, brother could react differently with your body language. And, um, but your facial expressions will be the same.

Lewis Howes 4:18 Really?

Annie Särnblad 4:19 Yes.

Lewis Howes 4:19 That's good.

Annie Särnblad 4:19 The facial expressions are all the same. So think about it-

Lewis Howes 4:21 So look more at the face, not the body.

Annie Särnblad 4:23 Right. So I can talk about body language a little bit when we get further into this. Um, but think about it when you're scared. I mean, right now I'm a little nervous 'cause we've just met for the first time and, um, we're being filmed and this is kind of exciting and I've read your books, seen your podcast. So my hands are cold. That's-

Lewis Howes 4:40 Well, it's also cold in the room.

Annie Särnblad 4:41 Right?

Lewis Howes 4:41 I make it cold in here by-

Annie Särnblad 4:42 Yeah. [laughs] On purpose.

Lewis Howes 4:43 [laughs] Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 4:44 So, but, but the reality is that the blood, when I'm afraid or nervous, the blood rushes down to my legs and my feet so that I can run.

Lewis Howes 4:51 Ah. Interesting.

Annie Särnblad 4:52 I- When we're angry, it pumps into our fists so that we are ready to-

Lewis Howes 4:56 Fight

Annie Särnblad 4:56 ... fight.

Lewis Howes 4:57 Interesting.

Annie Särnblad 4:57 When we human beings are sad, we cry. When we're nervous, we sweat, palms of our hands and our armpat- pits, sometimes on the brows.

Lewis Howes 5:05 Mm-hmm. The face. Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 5:05 Right? When we're aroused, the blood pools, pools into the middle of our bodies. We would not survive as a species if this were not true.

Lewis Howes 5:13 Interesting.

Annie Särnblad 5:13 Okay. So that was like the, "Oh, crap." That was, "Oh, crap, Annie. Here she goes." [laughs] But the reality is that every emotion leads to a change in blood flow and muscle movement in our bodies-

Lewis Howes 5:24 Oh

Annie Särnblad 5:25 ... and on our faces. We have a physiological response to emotion.

Lewis Howes 5:29 So what influences the emotion? Is it a thought that we generate or a thought that we-

Annie Särnblad 5:33 Well, that's a really good question. So, like, if I have a really hot cup of coffee and I touch the coffee, the first thing that happens is I move my fingers back. I don't think, "Oh my goodness, this is hot," with my brain. My body, the muscle movement comes first. The microexpressions precede the thought process. So I can't, even after my years and years and years of training, I can't stop myself from making microexpressions unless I change what I'm thinking about

Lewis Howes 6:01 Unless you're intentional about the thought. You're like, "Okay, I'm gonna... There's gonna be loud noises. I'm gonna act calm and relaxed-

Annie Särnblad 6:07 Right

Lewis Howes 6:07 ... even though my body would probably flinch or react or turn around or see what's happening around me, right?" The body reacts based on its environment, sounds, words, expressions, right?

Annie Särnblad 6:17 Right, which is why those of us who have experienced trauma, we get triggered really, really quickly.

Lewis Howes 6:22 Very easily.

Annie Särnblad 6:23 Right? And so when I said that trauma, you, you did the rectangle of your mouth. Your, the tendons of your neck jump. That's, that's fear. That's, "Oh, crap," right? That's a response. And you pulled your upper eyelids back. Okay, so that's also fear. We, we make this full facial expression of fear, the macro. We pull our upper eyelids way back. We show the sclera, which is the white above our eyes, and we make our mouth into this giant rectangle.

Lewis Howes 6:46 Why is this?

Annie Särnblad 6:47 Okay, so the pulling back of the upper eyelids is so that we gauge our exits, and the opening our mouth into a huge rectangle is so that we can scream for help. And so what I call the, "Oh, crap" is just that little piece of the rectangle.

Lewis Howes 7:01 Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 7:01 And it's the only expression that make the tendons of our necks jump.

Lewis Howes 7:04 Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 7:05 So even if I'm looking eye-to-eye and I see that little tendon, something was unsettling

Annie Särnblad 7:10 to you.

Lewis Howes 7:10 Now, is this an observation of us, you know, mirroring and mimicking our parents or siblings when we were younger or watching expressions of others, or if we weren't able to see anyone, would we constantly create this intuitively in our DNA?

Annie Särnblad 7:26 All day, all day long.

Lewis Howes 7:27 Really?

Annie Särnblad 7:27 It's hardwired into us.

Lewis Howes 7:28 So it's not a mimic.

Annie Särnblad 7:29 It's not a mimic.

Lewis Howes 7:29 Because we mimic a lot of body language in languages.

Annie Särnblad 7:32 We do. Yeah, we mirror a lot of body language-

Lewis Howes 7:33 Yeah

Annie Särnblad 7:33 ... and mirror. And so we-

Lewis Howes 7:35 We're like parrots, right?

Annie Särnblad 7:36 Right. But so if you are really stressed, and you come in, and you keep puckering your chin 'cause you're having a really, really hard time. And I say, "Lewis, how are you doing today?" And you say, "Great." And I'm like, "Oh, honey, do you need a hug?" Even though your words said, "Great," you're puckering your chin 'cause-

Lewis Howes 7:50 Oh

Annie Särnblad 7:50 ... you're feeling sad and vulnerable, right? So I know that microexpressions are the very deepest of listening skills.

Lewis Howes 7:57 Wow.

Annie Särnblad 7:58 So I see-

Lewis Howes 7:58 So you can tell easily if someone's lying based on facial expression.

Annie Särnblad 8:01 Yes, because a facial expression won't match the words. So that's what we're always looking at. So for example, if you say, "Great," and you show vulnerability, well, you're not feeling so great, honey.

Lewis Howes 8:12 Yeah, you're not.

Annie Särnblad 8:12 You're maybe not trying to deceive me on a deep level. You're just trying to kind of fake it till you make it, right? So if you say, "I hate broccoli," and you show disgust, right? When we have little children [laughs] , when we have little children, this is what I call, I call it the no face, but it's got three main pieces. The macro, which is the big expression. It's got the wrinkles next to the nose, the deepening of the nasala- labial furrow, and the pulling of the upper lip. Did you have that girl in seventh grade who's like, "Are you gonna wear that?"

Lewis Howes 8:40 Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Annie Särnblad 8:41 "Are you gonna wear that?" Like, really? [laughs] Um, so I take the microexpressions, and the way that I h- have been able to advance the field of science is I teach the one thing that's significant to each expression.

Lewis Howes 8:56 Love that.

Annie Särnblad 8:56 Each emotion. So with disgust, if you just look for nostril shadows. I mean, I'm a, I speak all these different languages, so my thing is translating. So I needed to take this entire field and teach it to my little kids so they could-

Lewis Howes 9:09 Keep them safe

Annie Särnblad 9:10 ... protect themselves.

Lewis Howes 9:10 Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 9:10 Yeah, keep them safe. And so we call it the no face. And so if you have deep shadows right next to your nose, that's, "No, I don't want to. That smells bad. I don't, that's icky." And the big expression of disgust actually shuts off our nasal passages up to about 80%. That's what it's there for. But we make that same expression when something is socially toxic. Like, I don't want to. So if you say, "Annie, tomorrow I want you to come over at 5:00 AM and we're gonna sit down and we're gonna process a lot of this for three or four hours," and I go... [laughs] Right? Where's, that doesn't mean I don't like you.

Lewis Howes 9:44 Right.

Annie Särnblad 9:44 It just means like-

Lewis Howes 9:45 You just don't wanna do it

Annie Särnblad 9:45 ... dude, I don't wanna-

Lewis Howes 9:46 You just don't wanna do it

Annie Särnblad 9:46 ... get up at 5:00 in the morning. I don't wanna do it, or I've already double-booked, or, but it's just a quick no. It's just a little flicker of no.

Lewis Howes 9:54 Interesting.

Annie Särnblad 9:55 And so if I'm saying, "I hate broccoli," oh, man, I will not give you broccoli. You do not wanna eat broccoli. I will not serve you broccoli. But if you're saying, "Yeah, I'm really happy to do this interview [laughs] with you, Annie, today." I'm going, "Oh, honey, no you're not."

Lewis Howes 10:08 Wow.

Lewis Howes 10:09 What have you seen for yourself personally and with the work you've done with high powerful individuals are the three main benefits of mastering the art of facial communication?

Annie Särnblad 10:22 So empathy and safety, so, uh, or what I call connection and protection.

Lewis Howes 10:30 Okay.

Annie Särnblad 10:30 So it's a, when we see what someone else is really feeling, we can adjust, we can help, we can love them better.

Lewis Howes 10:37 Mm.

Annie Särnblad 10:38 We can teach them. We can lead them better. We can, um, you know, if somebody is, is really feeling uncomfortable, we know that they're feeling uncomfortable, then we can ask them questions and we can offer help.

Lewis Howes 10:49 Right.

Annie Särnblad 10:50 If someone, for example, is in a, is in a mergers and acquisitions situation and you say, "Okay, so I'm buying your company. I need to know that your technology's gonna be ready in three months." And they go, "Absolutely."

Lewis Howes 11:01 [laughs]

Annie Särnblad 11:02 And that's the fear, right?

Lewis Howes 11:03 Yeah, yeah.

Annie Särnblad 11:04 So your body's betraying you.

Lewis Howes 11:05 Interesting.

Annie Särnblad 11:05 Your body is saying that you don't believe. So do I know that you don't have the technology ready? No, I, but I know that you know there's some, your body's telling me there's something off with that.

Lewis Howes 11:17 And so maybe it's just more information to say, "Okay, I could go forward, but it could be a greater risk."

Annie Särnblad 11:22 It shows us where to dig.

Lewis Howes 11:24 Right. Let me dig in

Lewis Howes 11:25 deeper on that. That's fascinating. Is it possible, like even with you knowing this and studying this for so long, is it possible for you to lie and, and get away with it facially as well? Like, or is our body so intuitive that we could say a word and the body is just going to say the true meaning behind that word?

Annie Särnblad 11:47 So a really good spy can create two parallel lines of existing.

Lewis Howes 11:52 It's probably just so uncomfortable. Or you have to disassociate with your mind and say, "Well, this is for a greater purpose or a greater service, so I'm going to act as if I'm this person."

Annie Särnblad 12:02 Right. And, and why it's even really difficult for, for those of us who have loved ones who act. Because they are putting themselves in-

Lewis Howes 12:11 My girlfriend

Annie Särnblad 12:12 ... right?

Lewis Howes 12:12 Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 12:13 Well, and, and so you're going to, your soon-to-be wife, right?

Lewis Howes 12:16 Uh, yeah.

Annie Särnblad 12:17 You're going to have to have extra compassion when she's doing a role that, that, um, demands a lot of emotion.

Lewis Howes 12:24 Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 12:25 It's very hard to just take off those clothes afterwards. And so her body is going to believe she's been through that trauma if she's doing a traumatic role.

Lewis Howes 12:33 Yeah, luckily she hasn't done any, like, traumatic stuff. She's done a lot more lighthearted, like roman-

Annie Särnblad 12:37 Good

Lewis Howes 12:37 ... romantic comedies.

Annie Särnblad 12:38 Okay.

Lewis Howes 12:38 So it's a little bit-

Annie Särnblad 12:39 Yeah

Lewis Howes 12:39 ... a little bit easier, I think.

Annie Särnblad 12:41 That's a little easier

Lewis Howes 12:41 But, uh, but you still have to play a character.

Annie Särnblad 12:43 Yes. And so, I mean, I think about, uh, and my kids tease me about this all the time because I'm always looking at these different actors and musicians too, and going, "Oh my God. Who's parenting this person? Who's taking care of them?" Because when we put ourselves through emotions, our body believes, our brain believes we're going through it. So I found that for myself when I teach, and I'm holding the expression, like, you know, holding full-on fear-

Lewis Howes 13:09 Your body feels it

Annie Särnblad 13:09 ... my body thinks, my brain thinks I've lived it.

Lewis Howes 13:12 You're in fight or flight.

Annie Särnblad 13:13 And so I would burst into tears the day after, even though there's nothing dramatic going on in my own life.

Lewis Howes 13:18 You needed a release afterwards, yeah.

Annie Särnblad 13:20 So I need a 90-minute massage afterwards.

Lewis Howes 13:21 That is fascinating because, I mean, I grew up in the, the world of sports and playing football. It was a such a switch of a mentality, getting on the field, one, for safety, to, like, put yourself in a warrior state. Like-

Annie Särnblad 13:36 'Cause it is a warrior state

Lewis Howes 13:37 ... I even had an alter ego. You know, an alter ego that I, when I crossed the line, I stepped into a warrior.

Annie Särnblad 13:42 Did you have a name with alter ego?

Lewis Howes 13:44 Well, m- my alter ego was Jerry Rice, to be honest, 'cause as a wide receiver, I was like, okay, more of a visualization alter ego. But I, I embodied a character of inflicting as much pain as possible on people. That was like a survival mechanism.

Annie Särnblad 13:58 Right, and that's a lot for your body.

Lewis Howes 14:00 Exactly. It was like, how can I inflict as much pain as possible to dominate and win?

Annie Särnblad 14:06 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 14:07 And then afterwards, you know, it's like you ha- you need time to, like, shed that character, in a sense.

Annie Särnblad 14:13 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 14:13 You need time to shed it, to, like, process.

Annie Särnblad 14:15 Yes.

Lewis Howes 14:16 Sometimes I'd be in, like, a bad mood afterwards, or just like, "All right. I need, like, a night to just sleep it off-

Annie Särnblad 14:21 Mm

Lewis Howes 14:22 ... and get back to, like, a loving, peaceful state."

Annie Särnblad 14:25 Right. It would be hard to go from there to go on a date and, and be soft and warm and flowy, right?

Lewis Howes 14:29 Be like, "Ah, yeah, exactly. Ball and ball," yeah.

Annie Särnblad 14:30 Right? [laughs]

Lewis Howes 14:30 It's like... But, um, yeah, it's interest- it's, it's challenging for, I think, actors or athletes or musicians who have to play a character-

Annie Särnblad 14:38 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 14:38 ... night after night, uh, and get back to a state of who they are, I would say.

Annie Särnblad 14:42 Well, and think about even, I mean, so one of the things when you're telling me this, I'm thinking, "Well, at least you were moving-

Lewis Howes 14:48 Yes

Annie Särnblad 14:48 ... in all of this. At least you had an outlet." So, like, physically there was some result of this.

Lewis Howes 14:53 And I was tired too at the end.

Annie Särnblad 14:54 Right?

Lewis Howes 14:55 I was exhausted.

Annie Särnblad 14:55 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 14:56 It's like, okay.

Annie Särnblad 14:56 So if you just, if you're acting and there's no physical piece of that, then you're just stuck with all this sort of nervous energy and trauma.

Lewis Howes 15:05 Interesting.

Annie Särnblad 15:05 That's really interesting.

Lewis Howes 15:06 So you really wanted to master this, one, for yourself, but also be able to teach your kids on how to be safe. What are the, what are the things you really teach them to look out for from their early childhood to teen years, and then now into some of them into their professional lives?

Annie Särnblad 15:23 Right.

Lewis Howes 15:23 What were you teaching then and now?

Annie Särnblad 15:26 So the biggest piece is that the facial expressions need to match the words. So, nice to see you.

Lewis Howes 15:35 [laughs] Right.

Annie Särnblad 15:36 That's disgust and contempt. That's growling. A grown man growling at a child, that's a problem.

Lewis Howes 15:40 Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 15:40 That's predatory behavior.

Lewis Howes 15:42 Yeah. And for those only listening, if you go to the YouTube, you'll be able to watch Annie's facial expression-

Annie Särnblad 15:47 Yep

Lewis Howes 15:47 ... as you're explaining this. But yeah.

Annie Särnblad 15:49 Yeah. Yeah, I have them all across my s- I put, I've just recently started to put up the, all the expressions. It's on my website. It's on my socials. It's on YouTube. I'm putting them out, out into the world-

Lewis Howes 16:00 That's great

Annie Särnblad 16:00 ... so that other people can learn them to keep themselves safe. But the, the main focus for my little kids, when they were pre-verbal, we did a lot of mirroring. You know how you can get little babies, even before they start to speak, you can get them to stick out their tongue when you stick out your tongue?

Lewis Howes 16:16 Ah, raise your eyebrows. Smile. Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 16:17 And so we did a lot of, like... [laughs] My d- I have one kid that still does this, a lot of, like, crazy eyes. I would get them to mirror, oh, a lot of, and make sounds to the facial expressions. So we practice the big macro expressions.

Lewis Howes 16:32 Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 16:32 And I would put words to them, in the same way I'd be, you know, coffee, apple, banana.

Lewis Howes 16:38 Mm-hmm.

Annie Särnblad 16:39 Um, so they've never not had words for expressions, and babies know this innately. It's our universal human language. It's the language on which we build spoken language.

Lewis Howes 16:50 Mm-hmm.

Annie Särnblad 16:51 So our facial expressions are across all cultures. It's a species thing. But we, you know, the, the sounds we make for different words are different.

Lewis Howes 16:59 Okay.

Annie Särnblad 17:00 But we use that. If you're looking at me and you're going, I know that's something bad, and if you're looking at me and your cheeks are popping up. So let me ask you this: How can you tell if someone's giving you a real smile?

Lewis Howes 17:11 Uh, if they're smizing.

Annie Särnblad 17:13 Smizing. What's smizing?

Lewis Howes 17:14 Kinda like right there.

Annie Särnblad 17:15 Yeah. Okay.

Lewis Howes 17:16 Yeah, where your eyes are kinda like crow, crow eyes.

Annie Särnblad 17:17 Okay.

Lewis Howes 17:18 Like, where-

Annie Särnblad 17:18 So I can give you crow's feet-

Lewis Howes 17:20 Oh, yeah

Annie Särnblad 17:20 ... with a really fake smile

Lewis Howes 17:21 ... but the, but the, the bottom half is not there. Yeah. It's-

Annie Särnblad 17:24 It, it's all in our cheeks.

Lewis Howes 17:25 Is it? Okay.

Annie Särnblad 17:26 Okay. So when we're happy, our cheeks pop up.

Lewis Howes 17:28 Interesting.

Annie Särnblad 17:28 And then this skin is usually flat.

Lewis Howes 17:31 Uh-huh.

Annie Särnblad 17:32 And we get smile bags.

Lewis Howes 17:33 Oh, okay. Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 17:33 So if we have smile bags, that's not-

Lewis Howes 17:35 So the cheeks are pushing up against the eyes.

Annie Särnblad 17:37 The, yeah, it has nothing to do with the mouth.

Lewis Howes 17:39 So you can fake smile, but you're not authentic smiling. Gotcha. Interesting.

Annie Särnblad 17:43 So all you have to do is look at the skin right here. If it's that, they're happy. And that was my four-year-old saying to me when I took them out. I took my kids, we lived in Singapore when they were little, and I would take them out into the world and live narrate, almost like a nature show, in Swedish, 'cause we spoke Swedish at home. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 17:57 Really?

Annie Särnblad 17:57 So I take my kids-

Lewis Howes 17:58 So you see someone walking-

Annie Särnblad 17:59 Yep

Lewis Howes 17:59 ... and be having a conversation with each other. You say, "They're doing this. They're doing this."

Annie Särnblad 18:03 Yeah. And then, uh, most of the time I'd, I'd do what you do, which is ask the questions. What do you see? You know, kinda like, there's a book, I can't remember what the child's, the children's book is called, but it's like, "Big Bear, what do you see? What do you see?" And that's what I would ask, "What do you see?" And they would say, "Well, he's showing disgust because she's in her space. What happens now when she says something funny? Well now he doesn't mind because he lifts his cheek." And so my-

Lewis Howes 18:25 That's fascinating

Annie Särnblad 18:26 ... my daughter Emma was four when I was describing all these different points on the face for joy, and she said, "Mama, you just have to look at the skin right there. If it's fat, they're happy." And that was sort of the beginning-

Lewis Howes 18:39 That's crazy

Annie Särnblad 18:40 ... of pulling this one piece that was specific for each emotion, which is what I teach.

Lewis Howes 18:44 How many

Lewis Howes 18:45 people innately know this? 'Cause you feel, you hear a lot of people talk about like, you know, trust your gut, trust your intuition, but why do so many of us go against our intuition or our gut?

Annie Särnblad 18:55 'Cause we're not taught to believe it. So we are not taught the science. So the Museum of Science in Boston's been one of my clients. Um, it's all scientific. It's all biology. So that's the difference really between the body language and the facial expressions. I can tell exactly what you're feeling at any moment.

Lewis Howes 19:13 Hm.

Annie Särnblad 19:13 I can't tell why. I don't know what you're thinking. I'm not a mind reader, I'm just a feelings reader.

Lewis Howes 19:18 Right. Interesting.

Annie Särnblad 19:19 But it's clear as day. I mean, I don't, I, I should have asked you before I said, like what, am I allowed to use technical terms?

Lewis Howes 19:25 Yeah, of course.

Annie Särnblad 19:26 Okay. So if a man has an erection, he's aroused, period.

Lewis Howes 19:30 Uh-huh.

Annie Särnblad 19:31 If, if I see a naked man in front of me with an erection, he's aroused. Now, I don't know if he's thinking of me.

Lewis Howes 19:36 Right.

Annie Särnblad 19:36 He could be thinking about the guy next door. He could be thinking about, you know, the beautiful model that he saw earlier in the day. I don't know, but clear as day, I know which emotion he's feeling. He's not feeling sad. He's not feeling angry. He's not feeling nervous. He's feeling aroused. Facial expressions are as universal as that. It's a change in blood flow and muscle movement in response to an emotion, and it's clear as day. It is universal, and it is our species, our human species. It has nothing to do with anything else. Whether you're young or old, you make the same facial expressions. In our faces, arousal is a dilation of the pupils. Our pupils go ding and swell. And that's, interestingly enough, that's arousal for money, that's arousal for greed, that's arousal for romance. So it just basically a s- swell of the pupils, a dilation of the pupils is, "I want, I want. Give me, give me, give me, give me," now.

Lewis Howes 20:32 It's desire.

Annie Särnblad 20:33 It's desire.

Lewis Howes 20:33 Power, fame, success, money.

Annie Särnblad 20:35 Yep.

Lewis Howes 20:35 All these different things.

Annie Särnblad 20:36 So y- if you're in a negotiation and you see the other person, you're, you're introducing your deal and you're pitching, and I can make your pupils swell. I [laughs] had, I had a, I had a meeting once and I, I leaned forward and I said, "You're a good leader. I can make you a great leader." And the guy's pupils went ding and I tripled my price.

Lewis Howes 20:53 [laughs] You're smart. [laughs] Wow. And he's like, "I want that. I want that."

Annie Särnblad 20:58 I mean, to be fair, I was a woman in Asia and I was charging way too little money-

Lewis Howes 21:01 Sure thing. Of course

Annie Särnblad 21:01 ... for my services.

Lewis Howes 21:02 Yeah, that's great.

Annie Särnblad 21:02 So there you go.

Lewis Howes 21:03 Wow, that's crazy. That's fascinating.

Annie Särnblad 21:05 So I-

Lewis Howes 21:05 Just the little cues that will-

Annie Särnblad 21:07 Yeah, the little cues

Lewis Howes 21:07 ... that you can pick up on can help you make better decisions.

Annie Särnblad 21:11 Better decisions and safer decisions for your money, for your business, for your love life, for your friends. And so when I work, for example, with every once in a while I'll go in and work with a family that maybe has kidnapping risks for their kids, you know, that, that is, lives a very high-profile life, and they want to be able to make sure that their kids know and, and have words to sound the alarm when somebody's a- acting in a dangerous way.

Lewis Howes 21:36 Right.

Annie Särnblad 21:37 And so equally important, usually I'm brought in 'cause they think Annie's gonna train them to recognize predatory behavior, but if you're in the public eye, it's just as important to understand who loves you and who wishes you well. Because if we're raising kids to be fearful and wary of everybody, we're doing them a great disservice, 'cause as you and I both know, the meaning in life is finding people that we connect to and that we can love well and who love us well.

Lewis Howes 22:06 Right. Absolutely.

Annie Särnblad 22:07 And so the understanding intent has those two pieces, of people that really don't wish me well at all or who want to use me or abuse me or hurt me, and then I wanna know who doesn't care about my money or my fame or anything else, they just want me to be okay and they just wanna love me.

Lewis Howes 22:24 How do you know the difference between someone who wants to use you or take advantage of you in life versus someone that wants the best for you?

Annie Särnblad 22:31 The facial expressions are gonna tell you every time. So exactly like what I was talking about earlier, when if you had met me and you had said, "So great to meet you," and you're growling, no, you're not happy to meet me. Or you're saying, "Oh, I heard you got a promotion at work," and you're, you're doing the bunny rabbit twitch right here, you don't like that at all, no matter what your words are saying. But if you say, "I'm so proud of you," and your cheeks pop up and you're, you get these smile bags, and I'm going, oh. I said something really v- vulnerable when we had just met, you know, we talked for, what, five or 10 minutes before we started this interview, and as soon as I said something about something that was hard, you pucker your t- and you just do that intuitively. That's empathy. That's kindness. That's I feel your pain. I care about that. I worry about that. I want you to be okay. And so when we see that empathy, that person's really feeling our feelings with us.

Lewis Howes 23:27 Mm-hmm.

Annie Särnblad 23:29 And we do, you talked about mirroring earlier, and we do, we mirror other people's expressions all day long, especially when we're connected with them. So back to that question that you asked, how do you tell or can you change your facial expressions? I can change my facial expressions by changing the ideas in my head. So I had to fire a board member once, and he'd done these egregious things, and we decided as a board that we needed to do it as a group because this person was going to try to go out to constituents and, and try to destabilize the whole organization. And so we sat down a- and they said, "Annie'll do it. Annie's not afraid of conflict."

Lewis Howes 24:08 [laughs]

Annie Särnblad 24:09 So I started reading this list and I said, "You, I, we need you to understand, though, this is unanimous and we are firing you from your position and here is why." And I was growling at him as I was saying-

Lewis Howes 24:21 You were?

Annie Särnblad 24:21 Yes, because I was saying these horrible things that he'd done, and I was-

Lewis Howes 24:24 Disgusted at them

Annie Särnblad 24:24 ... and, and that, yeah, I was disgusted. And then I'm thinking, because I know that I've got all these people that I have to get along with, and they're watching me growl like a dog, [laughs] and I needed to change my own expressions. And I can't create those full parallel lines of thought, but I could feel myself just getting more and more worked up. So I just repeated in my head, "Loving kindness. Loving kindness. Loving kindness." [laughs]

Lewis Howes 24:47 While you're saying-

Annie Särnblad 24:48 Yeah

Lewis Howes 24:48 ... these things you don't agree with.

Annie Särnblad 24:49 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 24:49 Wow.

Annie Särnblad 24:50 Yeah, and I got-

Lewis Howes 24:51 This is fascinating

Annie Särnblad 24:51 ... I got pulled aside afterwards from a friend that had, I'd been training, and she said, "You're halfway through."

Lewis Howes 24:57 You switched. Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 24:57 You, you switched. And I said, "Oh, yeah, here's what I did. It was the, it's the only way I know how to do it."

Lewis Howes 25:01 It's kind of like thinking, "Okay, I'm, I'm not enjoying this," or maybe I'm having a, a difficult conversation with this person that naturally my facial expression would snarl or growl or whatever.

Annie Särnblad 25:12 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 25:14 But I'm going to intentionally have as much compassion for this person as well. I don't agree with it. I don't like it. Maybe they wronged me or hurt me.

Annie Särnblad 25:21 Right.

Lewis Howes 25:22 But how can I also see the humanity in the person, and I guess wish the best for them in the future? You know, it doesn't mean you have to-

Annie Särnblad 25:29 Which is most of the people. I mean, I just, we just had a conversation about, you know, the people that wish you ill and the people that wish you well, but most of the people are kind of in the middle.

Lewis Howes 25:36 Yeah, of course.

Annie Särnblad 25:36 You know, they're just kinda struggling along, which is exactly what you're saying, right? They, they may not be the best person for you to have close in your life. Maybe you don't wanna work with them, maybe you don't wanna be friends with them, or maybe... But there's nothing, they're not inherently evil.

Lewis Howes 25:49 Yes.

Annie Särnblad 25:49 They're just somebody that you're saying, "Hey, this doesn't work for me." And, and yes, that's, that's how I cheat the system of my microexpressions-

Lewis Howes 25:58 Yes

Annie Särnblad 25:58 ... is by loving kindness, loving kindness, loving kindness.

Lewis Howes 26:01 Compassion, yeah.

Annie Särnblad 26:02 Just trying to find that empathy because most people are struggling.

Lewis Howes 26:05 Oh. There's a Swedish movie remake that's an American movie now, I guess, uh, Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. I don't know if you've seen this movie.

Annie Särnblad 26:13 I haven't.

Lewis Howes 26:13 Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.

Annie Särnblad 26:14 It's too scary for me. I think there's some-

Lewis Howes 26:16 Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 26:16 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 26:16 The English r- remake of it-

Annie Särnblad 26:18 Yeah

Lewis Howes 26:18 ... there's a scene, uh, towards the end that it's actually the psychopath murderer, um, who, like, locks people up in the, you know, basement and kills people or whatever, tortures them or whatever. Uh, the main character goes to the house and, 'cause he's kinda suspicious about him. He's like, "Huh, I think he's not a good person."

Annie Särnblad 26:38 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 26:38 But he's in a position of power. He's part of this family business, and, um, he's going up to the house to kinda, like, check on his intuition.

Annie Särnblad 26:48 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 26:49 And, um, to snoop around.

Annie Särnblad 26:51 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 26:52 And then all of a sudden, no one's there, but then the, the bad guy come, drives back in and, and enters the house, and he kinda gets caught, and he, like... He's outside walking around, and the guy's like, "Oh, why don't you, why don't you come on in?"

Annie Särnblad 27:06 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 27:06 But intuitively, he knew, like, something's off, but he goes in anyways to be courteous, right? He's like, "Okay," like social courtesy. "Okay, I'm gonna go in and just have a conversation so it doesn't look like I'm suspicious." Eventually, he, you know, drugs him or catches him. He's in the basement, tie him up, and he's having this conversation with him. The bad guy's having the conversation with the other guy, and he's saying something like, "Isn't it interesting that our intuition knows, but we still follow, we still have that conversation with someone even when we know emotionally we shouldn't, we should run away?"

Annie Särnblad 27:39 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 27:40 But a lot of us do this in intimacy or relationships. I feel like I've done this in the past.

Annie Särnblad 27:45 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 27:46 Where we know we shouldn't be in this relationship.

Annie Särnblad 27:49 Uh-huh.

Lewis Howes 27:50 We should get out, or we start dating someone and we know, like, oh, there are some red flags or some signs that things aren't matching, right?

Annie Särnblad 27:57 Right.

Lewis Howes 27:59 How can we tell either the signs or the flags when we're dating someone that we should really take this a lot slower?

Annie Särnblad 28:08 Yeah. Can you feel it? You're doing, like-

Lewis Howes 28:10 Yeah, like-

Annie Särnblad 28:10 ... you're doing this, which is the, uh, crap

Lewis Howes 28:11 ... triangle. The triangle.

Annie Särnblad 28:12 Right? That-

Lewis Howes 28:12 Clenching.

Annie Särnblad 28:13 Yeah, yeah. That's the fear. That's the, "Oh, crap," because you, 'cause you know what that feels like, and you-

Lewis Howes 28:18 So is that more our reaction to someone or watching their facial expression do that? Like, if we're-

Annie Särnblad 28:23 Yeah, you're doing it right now as you're t- as you're thinking about something that, that's worrying, that's concerning, and you're like... And then that was the, there's comfort, right? Then you're like, "Yeah, I remember what that felt like. That's uncomfortable. That's not safe. That's the..." And so your face is live narrating your words, and it's matching perfectly.

Lewis Howes 28:40 [laughs]

Annie Särnblad 28:41 Right? So, so your, your words and your facial expressions match perfectly.

Lewis Howes 28:44 But if someone's going out on a date, or they're, they're dating someone, or they're in a relationship, and they're like, "Huh," how do they really know the difference between a, a potential narcissist or a sociopath or someone who's out of alignment versus someone that could be a healthy, conscious relationship for them?

Annie Särnblad 28:58 So first of all, it's a great question. And, and we know in our gut. I mean, I always point to my solar plexus 'cause that's where I feel it. I al- always feel, like, this little almost sting right there. Um, we know in our gut, and the problem for so many of us, especially those of us who ex- who've experienced trauma in our, in our childhoods, is that our pain was intentionally or sometimes not intentionally dismissed. And we have been taught that our emotions aren't real, and we can control everything. And, and really we have this great security system in our bodies that does exactly what you're talking about, that tells us, "Danger. Danger. Alert. Alert." And what I am trying to do is get this information out into the public so that people who are young are able to make safe and healthy decisions about who to align with romantically, professionally, and even when it comes to friendships. So if, if, if you and I are going on a date, and say you're somebody who really doesn't wish me well. I can-

Lewis Howes 30:03 Or I'm trying to get something out of you.

Annie Särnblad 30:04 Right, get... Or I'm just-

Lewis Howes 30:04 I know I have good intentions or-

Annie Särnblad 30:05 Right. You don't care about my feelings. You don't care about my emotions. Maybe you're attracted to me, but we're looking for attraction and emotional attachment, most of us. Most of us who want a real relationship, we want those two things. We want the person to be attracted to us- And we want the person to be emotionally attached to us.

Lewis Howes 30:22 Yeah, or emotionally committed or yeah, you know, yeah.

Annie Särnblad 30:23 Yeah, same thing, right?

Lewis Howes 30:24 Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 30:24 To care about our feelings at the very deepest

Annie Särnblad 30:27 of levels.

Lewis Howes 30:27 But how do you know? 'Cause there's probably some either women or men who are, like, going on dates that can act like they care, but they really just want the money.

Annie Särnblad 30:35 Right, right.

Lewis Howes 30:36 Or they really just want the sex.

Annie Särnblad 30:37 Right.

Lewis Howes 30:37 Or they really just want to use them in some way for their benefit.

Annie Särnblad 30:40 Right. So they're saying the right words, and generally f- for most of us, us, and, and, you know, it varies from person to person, but, but most of us feel something in our gut. Now what I'm teaching is the facial expressions so that you can see and test and get that instant feedback before you're emotionally attached. Because most of us, six months down the line, will say about, oh, that creepy boss or the, the relationship where it turns out, you know, she just wanted me for my money, or he just wanted me for sex, or vice versa, right? That, that we know it, but if we can see the science in it immediately, we're unlikely to attach ourselves. We, we see the red flags. So what that does is it strengthens their, their gut. So for my children, for example, if they said to s- to somebody, "Hey, do you wanna come over?" And that person did that no expression, they knew the person didn't wanna come, but they didn't know why. Or again, if they're saying something nice and complimentary, but showing the no face, they don't believe it. They're not buy- they're not believing. Their body is saying, "No, no, no, no, I don't actually believe this." With romance and emotional attachment in particular, we're looking for that, that kindness in the chin that you show so often.

Lewis Howes 31:53 The chin.

Annie Särnblad 31:53 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 31:54 The chin is a good indicator.

Annie Särnblad 31:55 Our achy breaky heart is on our chin.

Lewis Howes 31:57 Really?

Annie Särnblad 31:57 So if I tell you something that's emotionally, physically, or financially painful for me, in general, you'll pucker, you know. And just me saying that right now, you did this, "Ugh." You're like, "Oh, that's a lot," right? You- There it's like, "She's gonna be watching me to see how I respond." [laughs] Which is totally normal too. That fits. Um, but if I were talking to you about a child with a learning disability or a family member that was going through health problems or something, you, you just, you, your little chin is working the whole time-

Lewis Howes 32:26 Right

Annie Särnblad 32:26 ... 'cause your heart is, like, right there.

Lewis Howes 32:27 I'm connected, yeah, to it, yeah.

Annie Särnblad 32:28 You're connected. And so if we're in a relationship or starting a relationship with somebody and we're starting to show our own vulnerability, they should be mirroring that vulnerability-

Lewis Howes 32:38 It's the chin

Annie Särnblad 32:38 ... in the chin.

Lewis Howes 32:39 It's not as much the eyes. It's more the chin.

Annie Särnblad 32:41 No, that's all of our vulnerability. So vulnerability is a piece of sadness, it's a piece of empathy, and it's a piece of love.

Lewis Howes 32:48 Right. Wow. That's beautiful.

Annie Särnblad 32:50 Yeah, it is.

Lewis Howes 32:51 All right.

Annie Särnblad 32:52 It's right on our chin. So I describe it in my book, it, you know, our heart, our chin is usually like a smooth grape.

Lewis Howes 32:58 Uh-huh.

Annie Särnblad 32:58 And then when we pucker it, we turn that grape into a raisin.

Lewis Howes 33:02 Right.

Annie Särnblad 33:03 That's the-

Lewis Howes 33:03 You can see a bunch of dimples in there, I guess, right?

Annie Särnblad 33:05 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 33:06 Wow.

Annie Särnblad 33:06 And that-

Lewis Howes 33:06 That's a good sign.

Annie Särnblad 33:07 That's a good sign.

Lewis Howes 33:08 And you can't really fake that, can you?

Annie Särnblad 33:10 No.

Lewis Howes 33:11 It's hard to, I guess, right?

Annie Särnblad 33:12 I mean, nobody knows. Now we'll see if the people-

Lewis Howes 33:14 Unless you're like-

Annie Särnblad 33:14 ... all over the world start faking it. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 33:15 Unless, unless you're a, like, trained sociopath, I guess, and you're just, like, trying to do that.

Annie Särnblad 33:19 The sociopaths never show it. They never pucker.

Lewis Howes 33:21 They never do.

Annie Särnblad 33:22 They almost never do. Um-

Lewis Howes 33:23 They don't show that compassi-

Annie Särnblad 33:24 Unless it's-

Lewis Howes 33:24 'Cause they don't have it

Annie Särnblad 33:25 ... they don't have it unless it's related to themselves getting hurt, and then

Annie Särnblad 33:30 they show it, 'cause their compassion towards their own feelings.

Lewis Howes 33:33 How can you know if someone has narcissistic tendencies if you're going on a date, or if you've been in the relationship with them for a long time?

Annie Särnblad 33:40 'Cause they don't show me any kindness.

Lewis Howes 33:42 They don't show kindness.

Annie Särnblad 33:43 They don't care when I get hurt. Regardless of how I get hurt or regardless of how somebody else gets hurt, they don't show that.

Lewis Howes 33:51 Really?

Annie Särnblad 33:51 They don't. No.

Lewis Howes 33:54 They care more about themselves, or they just, they just don't care?

Annie Särnblad 33:56 But I know narcissists that will describe something that they've been through that's painful, and their chin will be working overtime.

Lewis Howes 34:03 But for, for someone else, they probably won't have that.

Annie Särnblad 34:06 No, 'cause they don't care.

Lewis Howes 34:07 But how are they so good, I guess, at captivating you to love them?

Annie Särnblad 34:13 One, they, they tend to over, the, well, the narcissists in my life tend to overdo the eye contact.

Lewis Howes 34:18 So they're very present and connected?

Annie Särnblad 34:20 Yes. They, they, t- That, the gaze is long. Um, and then the other thing is that they've learned almost mathematically which phrases, which behaviors work.

Lewis Howes 34:31 Mm.

Annie Särnblad 34:32 So I had somebody in my life, um, I won't mention who it is, but it's, uh, it's a family member of mine, that I just lost it on him. Um, we were living in Hong Kong, and he was yelling at a taxi driver. And we got out of the car, and he, and the taxi driver had made a, a wrong turn, you know, even though the person that I was with had said, you know, "Turn to the right." The, the, but so he made a mistake, and he just lost it on this taxi driver. And I, um, I was really angry afterwards. I said, "Do you understand that this is, somebody's trying to support his family, working really long hours. Like, this is, you know, a decent human making a, an honorable living, working hard, and probably has a lot of people depending on them, and you don't get to yell at somebody for making a mistake. We all make mistakes." Next night, we were out, and this person was trying to pick up girls. Puffed out his chest and said, "I'm the kind of guy who's nice to taxi drivers."

Lewis Howes 35:32 No.

Annie Särnblad 35:33 [laughs] I was like, "Oh my God."

Lewis Howes 35:34 Wow. The next day? Geez.

Annie Särnblad 35:37 It's like this is the weirdest-

Lewis Howes 35:39 Oh my gosh

Annie Särnblad 35:39 ... most surreal experience. But it was, it, it really clicked for me this narcissistic behavior, and I knew that this was a narcissist. This [laughs] idea of, "Oh, there's a puzzle piece and a tool that I can use to impress other people." And it was just so artificial and strange. But people find a way to get their needs met. We, we humans tend to be really good at that, and if something works for us, well, we repeat that. We do more of that.

Lewis Howes 36:13 Yeah, we kinda store that in our brain. This worked before, so let me keep doing this thing.

Annie Särnblad 36:17 So that whole love bombing, and the whole, like I will tell you, and the narcissists that have ever tried to date me I call them parrots. Um, they, they try to figure out [laughs] what, what is your thing? So I had a guy not that long ago, I've actually written about it, that, that was telling me, "You know, I've been obsessed with microexpressions for years because if you can't really connect with people..." I mean, he'd seen me speak a couple of times and he was just pulling all this stuff, and I was lonely and newly divorced, and I almost fell for it. You know-

Lewis Howes 36:48 Really?

Annie Särnblad 36:48 ... even with my stuff because he was so good at the alms-

Lewis Howes 36:53 Speaking to your heart and to, like, your things

Annie Särnblad 36:54 Well, and he wasn't doing it face-to-face, he was doing it via text.

Lewis Howes 36:58 Ah.

Annie Särnblad 36:58 And I kept saying, "Well, let's just jump on a phone call." No, no, no, didn't wanna even jump on the phone call 'cause he knows that I can do voice stuff. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 37:05 Wow.

Annie Särnblad 37:07 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 37:07 No FaceTime. Yeah. FaceTime he'd be like, "Eh."

Annie Särnblad 37:09 Didn't wanna do the FaceTime. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lewis Howes 37:11 So i- can you personally tell the difference between someone who's maybe, uh, a psychopath, a narcissist, and a genius? Can you tell the difference based on... and, and, are there tendencies of all three, I guess?

Annie Särnblad 37:30 That's a really good question. Um, you can be a genius and also be kind.

Lewis Howes 37:37 Right.

Annie Särnblad 37:37 Right? That doesn't nece- you can be a narcissist and a genius, for sure.

Lewis Howes 37:42 Oh.

Annie Särnblad 37:42 Um, but the genius isn't necessarily overlapping the other ones. The, there are a couple pieces that I look for. I [laughs] look for what my kids call crazy eyes. So remember I talked about we pull our upper eyelids way back? You know, we do this.

Lewis Howes 37:58 Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 37:58 Right? So that's a piece of fear. So if you, um, if I walk into a room and I see somebody, uh, you know, maybe standing with a gun behind you or, like, pulling out a kni- and my upper eyelids are gonna, gonna pull way back, that fits. Right? If I'm in a scary situation, something scares me or somebody jumps out or there's a loud noise, I'm gonna pull my upper eyelids back and, and that matches-

Lewis Howes 38:22 The, like, crazy eyes.

Annie Särnblad 38:23 Yeah. Okay, but that matches, but we don't ever in fear. The only time we will pull our upper eyelids back and hold them i- roller coaster, haunted house, you know, a terror.

Lewis Howes 38:32 Loud noise.

Annie Särnblad 38:33 Right.

Lewis Howes 38:33 Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 38:33 We never hold our upper eyelids pulled way back except when we're nuts.

Lewis Howes 38:38 When you're a socio- a psychopath. You just like that all the-

Annie Särnblad 38:41 Ted Bundy

Lewis Howes 38:42 ... all the time, is that right?

Annie Särnblad 38:44 Hitler.

Lewis Howes 38:44 Really?

Annie Särnblad 38:45 I'm gonna get in so much trouble for this. Elizabeth Holmes.

Lewis Howes 38:47 Oh, wow.

Annie Särnblad 38:49 Yeah. See?

Lewis Howes 38:50 That's-

Annie Särnblad 38:50 Your face immediately goes like... There's a lot of people in the public eye, the school shooters, if you, if you look at the pictures of them-

Lewis Howes 38:57 They have their eyes like that a lot

Annie Särnblad 38:58 ... mugshots, they always, like, pull, they're showing their sclera. And there's something about mental instability and volatility, tility, and I'm not safe that, and I don't know what it is, and I've done a lot of research, just my own private research on that. But, but I almost always find that somebody who's committed a heinous crime and a really violent crime, they're al- almost always, like, I don't know, 20, 30% of their pictures that you can find up online where they're, where they're holding that.

Lewis Howes 39:26 Really? That's interesting.

Annie Särnblad 39:28 Okay, so watch the facial expression of fear, the full facial expression of fear, and it, like, makes me shiver as I... Right? Watch when I take the bottom half of my face and turn it into joy or arousal or cheerfulness.

Lewis Howes 39:41 That is weird.

Annie Särnblad 39:42 It's super creepy and it, like, sends all these itchy signals to my brain. But it's, it's out of context. It doesn't match. And your whole body, your whole nervous system knows that when you see it. When I give you the vocabulary to pull this and dissect it, you're going, "Oh, my God, I just talked about this thing, and that person showed crazy eyes," like, almost like they were... There's horror and arousal at the same, there should not... That's the Joker's face from Batman, the arousal in the horror, the joy in the horror. That's terrible.

Lewis Howes 40:12 The joy in the horror.

Annie Särnblad 40:14 Right.

Lewis Howes 40:14 That's something to watch out for.

Annie Särnblad 40:15 That is something to watch out for. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 40:17 Now, are people, you know, I guess, that are psychopaths, are they more like that all the time, or is that only sometimes?

Annie Särnblad 40:24 They seem to show it a lot.

Lewis Howes 40:26 Right. Right.

Annie Särnblad 40:26 And I, and, and the, I don't really, it's almost like I'm not all the way to the finish line with that research.

Lewis Howes 40:32 Uh-huh.

Annie Särnblad 40:32 I just know-

Lewis Howes 40:33 Something seems inauthentic, though

Annie Särnblad 40:35 ... something's inauthentic, and you can have somebody who is not a bad person, but who is going through a period of severe trauma and mental instability also have that sort of constant deer-in-the-headlight look. So you have to be careful. All of these facial expressions, you have to put them in context.

Lewis Howes 40:52 You need context.

Annie Särnblad 40:52 And it's not a, like, you see this in somebody, they're automatically a bad or a dangerous person, but they are more likely, in my experience, to be violent against others or themselves. You sometimes see that facial expression before somebody takes their own life.

Lewis Howes 41:09 Eh.

Annie Särnblad 41:09 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 41:10 Wow.

Annie Särnblad 41:11 So there's something, um, there's some, you know, serious emotional health issue.

Lewis Howes 41:17 With a, with a psychopath, essentially. Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 41:19 Yeah. And,

Annie Särnblad 41:20 yeah.

Lewis Howes 41:20 And h- what's the difference between spotting, I guess, a narcissist and a genius? And a genius who's actually kind and has good intentions versus a narcissist who is only out for them.

Annie Särnblad 41:34 So that's a really good question, and I, um, I'm sort of hesitant 'cause I haven't really thought about it enough. Um, again, with somebody that doesn't have empathy, that's a problem. Now, I work with a lot of people on the spectrum, a lot of people with autism, and there's this-

Lewis Howes 41:50 They may not express themselves with empathy as much. Yeah

Annie Särnblad 41:53 ... oh, there's this really misunderstood piece. I, I have people in my life who have autism and have beautiful empathy, and the idea that you can, that you don't have empathy, that's crazy.

Lewis Howes 42:05 It's all empathy.

Annie Särnblad 42:06 They might n- well, and it's, it's a tendency to be overloaded with information. You know, the eye contact becomes overstimulated. And I don't, I wanna be careful 'cause I'm not an expert, but from my own experience, they may not recognize the facial expressions. They may not have what I call situational empathy, which is also in psychology, they call it theory of mind, which is the ability to understand if this person's in this situation, here's how they would feel.

Lewis Howes 42:33 I see

Annie Särnblad 42:33 But if you have a conversation on a deeper level and you say, "This is how I feel and this is why," the people in my life with autism have immense amounts of empathy and kindness, and, "Okay, well then how can I help?" Um, and I work a lot with kids, or have worked in the past, I don't do it as much right now, and my autistic clients are my best clients.

Lewis Howes 42:56 Oh, really?

Annie Särnblad 42:56 They are the ones be- if I have an autistic client that is good at pattern recognition, and those are generally the ones that I would take on as clients because those are the ones that I can be most helpful to. They don't do what neurotypicals do, which is this, "You should be feeling this in this situation." They just look at the actual facial expression. "This is what you're feeling." So I start with showing pictures and explanation, and I sometimes will have people, like, color in the facial expressions. Where on the face do you see this expression? And so for example, I had an eight-year-old that I was training. And then once we get past the still pictures, we go to videos so they can see it really, 'cause you don't really know microexpressions until you can see it live. And I would always train the parents at the same time, and the... I'd show a video clip, freeze it, and the parents would say, "Well, this person's feeling this emotion." And the child would say, "Nope, it's this expression." And I would say, "The child's right."

Lewis Howes 43:51 Oh, wow.

Annie Särnblad 43:51 Because the parents were so into, "Well, but in this context they should be feeling this," and that would influence their interpretation.

Lewis Howes 43:58 Interesting. Just 'cause you should be doesn't mean you are feeling something.

Annie Särnblad 44:01 Right. And the, um, my autistic clients tend to be really, really good at the, it's all pattern recognition. And so they'd say, "But, you know, she's feeling joy because the smile bags are here. She's feeling the no-face, disgust, because there's nasal shadows. Or you got the rectangle of fear, right? No, they're feeling empathy or vulnerability because the chin's arising."

Lewis Howes 44:21 Oh.

Annie Särnblad 44:21 Easy-peasy.

Lewis Howes 44:23 If you're looking for a business partner or you're looking to hire someone for an opportunity or a job or a contract, and you want to set yourself up for the best chance of success with the partnership, what are a few questions you could ask someone to see their responses and see if it'll at least align with, "Okay, I'm setting myself up for success. Maybe this person won't work out in this career or this job or this business partnership, but I have good enough information where I feel like they're not gonna try to screw me over."

Annie Särnblad 45:00 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 45:00 And they want the, and they want the best in this relationship as well. What's a question or two you could ask to evoke a facial expression to see whether or not, okay, we're in alignment.

Annie Särnblad 45:11 Right. So obviously stay away from in generally yes or no questions. The yes or no questions can be used to follow up. Um-

Lewis Howes 45:17 Okay. So you could say it, but then follow up with something, yeah.

Annie Särnblad 45:19 Right. But I would generally ask open-ended questions, and I would ask things like, you know, "Tell me a little bit about why you want this role," or, "Why you wanna work with me, why you wanna work with this business."

Lewis Howes 45:30 Interesting.

Annie Särnblad 45:30 And then watch to see that this person is, one, I mean, it, they have to give interesting answers, right? It has to, the answer itself needs to be something that, that is motivating for me or feels like this person's a good fit, like they have the skills and they have the desire. But I am watching if they match.

Lewis Howes 45:47 Their facial expression matches-

Annie Särnblad 45:48 The facial expression matches the words

Lewis Howes 45:49 ... 'cause a lot of people can say, oh, you know, all the exciting things of why they wanna be a partner or work at the, the job or whatever it might be, but their face isn't matching the words.

Annie Särnblad 45:58 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 45:58 Then you can tell-

Annie Särnblad 45:59 Yeah

Lewis Howes 45:59 ... something's off. Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 46:01 Yeah. So this is suppression. We make that bubble. It's almost like, you know the, the chewing, the people who do the chewing tobacco. So sometimes they take it out... Right. Exactly. They stuff it in the bottom li- so sometimes they put it up top, but, uh, but it's almost a Nordic country boy, like, chewing tobacco thing. Um, and it, it's, it's not even a microexpression, but it's this, this, um, it... 'cause it takes so many muscles to make that. Barack Obama, king of suppression, makes that face all the time. It's, "I'm holding back." Doesn't he-

Lewis Howes 46:33 What's he holding back on, you think? How he truly feels, or?

Annie Särnblad 46:35 How he truly feels, or this is, you know, I, this information is not gonna help, or, um, this is not gonna be received well. I mean, you can imagine, self-control's a good quality in a leader.

Lewis Howes 46:47 Right. But he's saying he, he, you know there's something he's not happy with.

Annie Särnblad 46:50 Right. He's got, he wants to say what he's... It's the grown-up version of this.

Lewis Howes 46:55 He wants to say something-

Annie Särnblad 46:56 He's biting our tongue

Lewis Howes 46:57 ... but he's being mindful that, okay, I'm, I might hurt myself if I say how truth, right?

Annie Särnblad 47:02 Right. Also could be simply if we're in a meeting and the meeting's going over and some subject is brought up and I'm like, "Oh, I'm, I have so many thoughts about this, but I'm not, not right now." So it's just you're itching to say it. So that holding back is such a useful thing to see in board meetings, in any conversation. You know, so if I see somebody holding back on what they really feel, that would be a warning for me in a one-to-one interview. If we're in a big group setting, I would pull that person aside afterwards because likely they're not saying it because it doesn't, it's not something they wanna say out loud in front of those specific people who are in a group setting. But the person will almost always spill-

Lewis Howes 47:42 Interesting

Annie Särnblad 47:43 ... afterwards.

Lewis Howes 47:43 So it's just in- it's information telling you, "Hey, there's something underneath this expression. Let's ask more."

Annie Särnblad 47:49 Let's ask more.

Lewis Howes 47:50 Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 47:50 But I would, I would just generally the, the more you know about microexpressions, the more it gives you the underlying emotion of what's going on.

Lewis Howes 47:59 Yes.

Annie Särnblad 47:59 And I think as humans, we like to even tell ourselves that, "I'm not letting my emotions steer. I'm, I'm making rational decisions." But how many [laughs] business decisions are made on, "I want this. Okay, and it makes sense because A, B, C, and D." [laughs]

Lewis Howes 48:13 Sure.

Annie Särnblad 48:13 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 48:14 Sure.

Annie Särnblad 48:14 I'm gonna justify hiring this person 'cause I really want to. But, um, the microexpressions will give us that addic- that additional layer of-

Lewis Howes 48:23 Yes

Annie Särnblad 48:23 ... seeing the red flag and getting the science to the red flag. It makes it much safer because we, if we see the red flag and we can dissect why we see the red flag, we're going, "I'm, I'm not gonna invest in this relationship." I'm going to stop myself before I get emotionally or financially stressed.

Lewis Howes 48:39 Uh-huh. Yeah, and before there's some bigger commitment or something. This is fascinating. So, you know, you've been...

Lewis Howes 48:45 How long have you been doing this work and coaching and consulting with, you know, Fortune 500 executives and leaders?

Annie Särnblad 48:50 Since I was 28, and start... Well, no, actually-

Lewis Howes 48:52 Like five years then, or?

Annie Särnblad 48:53 Uh, yeah, right. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 48:58 [laughs]

Annie Särnblad 48:59 That's where you do the little beepy thing with your nose, which is the no face, but also-

Lewis Howes 49:04 Uh

Annie Särnblad 49:04 ... like the tricky business. So the wrinkle is the tricky business. That's like [laughs]

Lewis Howes 49:09 [laughs]

Annie Särnblad 49:10 That's your mischief. That's cute. [laughs] Um, yeah, so about five years. So, no, I started off with, um, investment banking in Hong Kong, and then I did management consulting in Sweden. And then when we moved, uh, I got married, moved to, uh, Singapore. Um, I, I lived in a lot of other places too across Europe-

Lewis Howes 49:29 But-

Annie Särnblad 49:30 ... and China and

Lewis Howes 49:30 ... many years you've been doing this.

Annie Särnblad 49:31 Many, many years.

Lewis Howes 49:32 Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 49:32 I, I really started, um, when I was in Sweden. I was the only person in the company, in the management consultant that, that could, um, that had English as my mother tongue.

Lewis Howes 49:42 Okay.

Annie Särnblad 49:42 And so I found I could hustle and wheel and deal by... You couldn't, you were generally trained in one thing, like you were trained in strategy or back in the day we called strategic IT or communications or change management or marketing. And I wanted to do everything 'cause I've got a brain similar to yours, which is like, "What can I learn from this? What can I learn from this? What can you teach me? What about you? What can you teach me? What can I offer you in exchange?" Um, I like that reciprocity.

Lewis Howes 50:08 Yes.

Annie Särnblad 50:09 So I started going around door to door in this 150 [laughs] person consultancy saying, "Can I be in your project? You've got a really good thing."

Lewis Howes 50:18 Sure.

Annie Särnblad 50:18 Back in the day before it was Sony Ericsson and it was only Ericsson, or it was, you know, Volvo. We worked with Volvo. And I would say, "If you let me in on your project, I'll write all your deliverables in English."

Lewis Howes 50:31 Ooh.

Annie Särnblad 50:31 "Will you speak them too?"

Lewis Howes 50:32 [laughs]

Annie Särnblad 50:32 "Yes, I will present for you." Because it was at that stage where all the Swedish companies were merging with other companies.

Lewis Howes 50:39 Mm.

Annie Särnblad 50:39 And they were going over to English being the, the, um, you know, the c- the corporate-

Lewis Howes 50:44 Language

Annie Särnblad 50:44 ... the corporate, uh, yeah, language. And the people that were 10, 20 years older than me at the time weren't particularly comfortable. They spoke English.

Lewis Howes 50:53 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Annie Särnblad 50:53 But it was, it was awkward.

Lewis Howes 50:54 Right.

Annie Särnblad 50:54 And they didn't wanna do all the, like, the mis- the spelling mistakes and all.

Lewis Howes 50:58 Gotcha.

Annie Särnblad 50:58 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 50:58 So you've been doing it for a while then.

Annie Särnblad 50:59 I've been doing

Annie Särnblad 51:00 it for a long time.

Lewis Howes 51:01 What is the, the main thing that extremely powerful leaders want to learn from you? What is it that they're really trying to get, and what questions they ask you to develop more tools? You don't have to say their names.

Annie Särnblad 51:17 So this is, you can see my suppression and my mischief where I'm like, "How honest am I gonna be?"

Lewis Howes 51:21 Because they hire you because they want, it s- sounds like, to have more power, to have more influence, to have more leadership abilities-

Annie Särnblad 51:29 They hire me-

Lewis Howes 51:29 ... to have-

Annie Särnblad 51:29 They hire me with the idea that they can... that I will help them see under the surface.

Lewis Howes 51:34 Uh-huh.

Annie Särnblad 51:34 So that they, you know, mostly focus on-

Lewis Howes 51:36 To give them more success.

Annie Särnblad 51:37 Yes. And protection.

Lewis Howes 51:38 To have, have, uh... Right. Protection, success-

Annie Särnblad 51:40 Right

Lewis Howes 51:40 ... growth.

Annie Särnblad 51:41 What really happens is that because, you know, think about it, like you hire me, and they, they, they bring me in. Usually, it's, it's just straight on reputation. Somebody from their young president's organization-

Lewis Howes 51:54 Said, "You s- you gotta hire her"

Annie Särnblad 51:55 ... or Tiger 21-

Lewis Howes 51:57 Yeah, yeah

Annie Särnblad 51:57 ... or some organization that they're a member in or some friend has said, "She can change lives." And they bring me in not really knowing what to expect and feeling really uncomfortable because y- you, you get to the-

Lewis Howes 52:10 'Cause you're reading them.

Annie Särnblad 52:11 Right. I'm reading them. Well, you get to the top of the pyramid, and part of getting to the top of the pyramid is faking it till you make it. Nobody's good at everything. So they've gotten really good at presenting this polished, poised, like, "Yes, yes, yes, I, with the..." And, and then figuring it out behind the scenes, like, "I, I know all about that," and then, "God, where's my Google?"

Lewis Howes 52:30 Right, right, right.

Annie Särnblad 52:31 Right? And so bringing somebody in who can see everything, it's like being naked. It, you know, it's like, "I don't want people to see me naked."

Lewis Howes 52:40 Vulnerable. Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 52:40 Right? You're vulnerable. And, um, so the initial piece is almost always this, "Oh, crap," like this is really... And, and I will often, if it's somebody that's powerful that I think can take it, I will live narrate their face.

Lewis Howes 52:57 Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 52:57 And they'll say, "Well, how much do you really see?" And I say, "Well, you just showed fear, and then you just swallowed because I made you feel uncomfortable and vulnerable. And now you're wrinkling your nose in a little bit of discomfort, and now you really realize I'm, I'm reading you. So you're pulling your upper eyelids back in, in fear, but your cheeks are, your inframorbital triangles are rising because you're like, 'This is the best thing ever.'" And they're like, "Holy crap. [laughs] You can see into my soul." And I go, "Yeah, but you know, it's fine."

Lewis Howes 53:22 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Annie Särnblad 53:23 "You're the same as everybody else. We're all the same."

Lewis Howes 53:25 So they wanna feel like protected and safe, like, "Okay, I wanna make sure that my business or my organization is being taken care of." Do you feel like they care more about that, or they care more about influence, power, and making more money?

Annie Särnblad 53:37 It's both. I mean, the number of times I will be on the stage doing a keynote, and I'll get pulled aside as soon as I go off, "You know, I need to talk to you in private," or, uh... And, and it depends on the kind of business. If it's a family business, if it's a family office, it can be something like, "I don't trust my partner, my cousin, my whatever. I think there's something off, and I, I can see the facial expressions. I know this person does that. I think they're stealing money. I think they're doing this." It can be any of the above. They don't generally know exactly what they need from me.

Lewis Howes 54:09 They don't know what they want.

Annie Särnblad 54:10 They don't know what they want, and the person recommending me is often not telling them exactly what I did for them. So it's sort of this vague kind of thing, and they pull me in, and I say, "Okay, so now that we've got this established, that you're lonely, that you're struggling, that you're not good at all the things that you need to project that you're good at, what are your real problems?" And they go, "Holy [censored] . Um, actually, I'm dealing with this." And they'll tell me the real stuff. And the reason I've been good at the strategic advisory and the coaching is because people actually come to me with their real problems that they don't tell anybody else.

Lewis Howes 54:45 They're honest with you. They have to be, I guess.

Annie Särnblad 54:48 Right. And most business problems are people problems.

Lewis Howes 54:50 Yes.

Annie Särnblad 54:50 On one level or another. It could be with their board, it could be with their employees, it could be that they can't manage to connect with the people that they need to connect with.

Lewis Howes 54:59 Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 54:59 It could be that they don't trust the people that they need to trust. It could be simply that they're, um, that they don't have anybody to ask advice to. 'Cause think about it, if you're the CEO, you can't go to your board and say, "With this merger, I have no idea what I'm doing."

Lewis Howes 55:13 No.

Annie Särnblad 55:13 You can't tell your employees that y- you're over your skis. You- your spouse is usually fed up because if you're a CEO, you're generally prioritizing work. Um, and so they may not be an expert in your business, or they may simply just not care anymore. So to have somebody who's kinda seen it all in terms of business, but also I, I think they take off their armor with me and just say, "This is really what I'm dealing with. Okay, you know, fine, let me just tell you."

Lewis Howes 55:39 What would you say then are the three biggest problems of highly successful, powerful leaders?

Annie Särnblad 55:46 I think one of the biggest problems that I see is that when you're really powerful, everybody says yes to you, and nobody calls you out on your [censored] .

Lewis Howes 55:54 Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 55:54 And so you get deeper and deeper into being disconnected from your organization, and you don't really know what's going on. You may have some toxic employees that are absolutely poisoning the water.

Lewis Howes 56:05 Mm.

Annie Särnblad 56:06 And you don't see it because, because people aren't telling you. Um, so that's one for sure. Um, I think, I think in general it's really, really hard to delegate well.

Lewis Howes 56:19 Mm-hmm.

Annie Särnblad 56:20 And that y- in a smaller company, you can kind of manage to be juggling and holding all the balls in the air. And as you, as you grow, you just can't.

Lewis Howes 56:30 You can't.

Annie Särnblad 56:30 And figuring out who you can trust, and getting comfortable with letting other people make mistakes.

Lewis Howes 56:36 Wow.

Annie Särnblad 56:37 And, and then the third one would really be modeling leadership. I think very few people, the, the personalities that tend to rise in an organization are... Leadership is parenting. It's, it's all the same.

Lewis Howes 56:51 Mm.

Annie Särnblad 56:51 And so, uh, if you're not able to model good behavior and the behavior that you want to trickle down in the organization, that can become very problematic.

Lewis Howes 57:02 Interesting.

Annie Särnblad 57:02 'Cause the skills that got you to the top, which are kind of elbows out, don't necessarily make you a good leader when you get

Annie Särnblad 57:09 there.

Lewis Howes 57:10 How many of the people that you've worked with in the past, percentage wise, do you feel like are great leaders or they're struggling to be a great leader? Like, what's the percentage?

Annie Särnblad 57:21 What is the mer- I mean, all humans are struggling.

Lewis Howes 57:23 [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Annie Särnblad 57:23 You know? And we're good at different things.

Lewis Howes 57:26 Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 57:26 And I think that we need to give ourselves more grace, that it is okay. That the best leaders I know are very vocal about the things they're not good at, and I do have some clients that are really... You know, when I see them get up and talk, I f- I feel this sense of warmth and pride because they'll say, "Okay, I'm not good at this, but that's why I have these people."

Lewis Howes 57:48 Right.

Annie Särnblad 57:48 I mean, that-

Lewis Howes 57:49 It's interesting. You could be extremely successful in a business and not be a great leader. I mean, it's like Steve Jobs went through different phases where he was talked about as, like, this horrible leader in terms of, you know-

Annie Särnblad 58:00 Right

Lewis Howes 58:00 ... his teams, like, feared him or didn't like him or he was aggressive or whatever, but he was able to build a massive business also.

Annie Särnblad 58:07 Right.

Lewis Howes 58:07 So it's just, it's figuring out... And then, and then it sounds like eventually he evolved and, and transformed into a better, you know, human leader of connection and empathy and kindness. But you can still be successful and essentially a bad leader, it sounds like. You just might have, be suffering more.

Annie Särnblad 58:22 Well, the other thing is that we're just flawed humans, and we're uneven. And I mean, you've talked about this in your books, and I talk about it. I'm very open with being dyslexic. I mean, I'm really very [laughs] dyslexic.

Lewis Howes 58:32 Yeah, me too.

Annie Särnblad 58:33 And once I started learning different languages, like, all bets are off. All bets. I mean, my, my-

Lewis Howes 58:37 Has it been easy to learn other language being dyslexic?

Annie Särnblad 58:40 So-

Lewis Howes 58:40 Because for me, I've struggled.

Annie Särnblad 58:41 So I have-

Lewis Howes 58:42 And I think it's 'cause I can't read from a book, and, like, remember.

Annie Särnblad 58:45 Well, [laughs] that's why I put in pictures for you.

Lewis Howes 58:47 [laughs] That's good.

Annie Särnblad 58:48 That's why I have to have the pictures.

Lewis Howes 58:48 When I have spaces and pictures, yeah.

Annie Särnblad 58:49 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 58:49 But I mean, especially a different language, I mean.

Annie Särnblad 58:51 So-

Lewis Howes 58:51 Like, learning Spanish-

Annie Särnblad 58:53 Right

Lewis Howes 58:53 ... from a book doesn't work for me.

Annie Särnblad 58:55 So this is, I mean, I think they thought I was nuts because I was, I was telling, I was telling my editor, my, her name is Sarah. She's amazing. She's held my hand through this entire process, and she's my editor and my illustrator, and she did the font, and she did, and she's the one who has said, you know, "Just do the big and the hard, and do it scared."

Lewis Howes 59:13 That's beautiful.

Annie Särnblad 59:13 "And jump." And so I, she said, "I kinda thought it was nuts when you said, 'I want the illustrations. I want the doodles.'" And I said, "I'm dyslexic. I need to pause, and I want the dessert afterwards."

Lewis Howes 59:25 Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 59:26 So, you know, I, I want the, the poem, and then I want the picture that, that you can kind of-

Lewis Howes 59:30 That's beautiful

Annie Särnblad 59:31 ... pause, and I need lots of space between the lines.

Lewis Howes 59:34 Me too.

Annie Särnblad 59:34 And I need different fonts so that my brain can kinda chill.

Lewis Howes 59:38 To read it and yeah, right.

Annie Särnblad 59:38 Right. And I, there's, I, I can follow the lines.

Lewis Howes 59:42 Mm-hmm.

Annie Särnblad 59:42 And so, um, I think that we give more credibility when we say, "This is what I'm good at, and this is what I suck at." And people go, "Oh." And this is what you do, right? You, you show your vulnerability. You jump... There's a piece that talks about, you know, you jump into the cold water first, then you turn around, give them a big grin, and say, "You wanna come?"

Lewis Howes 1:00:01 Right.

Annie Särnblad 1:00:02 How about now?

Lewis Howes 1:00:03 Yeah, it's kinda like if you eight-mile yourself consistently by talking about, you know, all your faults or mistakes or, I guess, inadequacies-

Annie Särnblad 1:00:12 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:00:13 ... then people trust you more also. It's like, okay. As opposed to saying, "I have it all figured out," and it's saying, "I'm on this journey, and here's my vision and here's what we're creating, but I, you know, I still need a lot to learn on these different areas."

Annie Särnblad 1:00:26 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:00:26 "And, uh, I still need support," I feel like people will trust you more.

Annie Särnblad 1:00:29 I need support.

Lewis Howes 1:00:29 Right? Yeah. A lot of support, yeah.

Annie Särnblad 1:00:31 Yeah. So there's this piece of... I don't know, when we're young, some of us think that if, if I'm polished and poised and plastic, and I'm-

Lewis Howes 1:00:40 Perfect and-

Annie Särnblad 1:00:41 ... I'm perfect, then I will be loved That's not love.

Lewis Howes 1:00:45 Wow. What is that?

Annie Särnblad 1:00:46 No, that's just, that's just a Barbie doll. You know, that's just nothing. So if, if, if you create this image of yourself that's super, super fancy and everybody goes, "Oh my God, he's so handsome, he's so smart, he's all these things," but that doesn't feel authentic to you, and I love you for that piece, that love isn't satisfying on any level. But if you show me who you really are, and you're dorky and sweet and vulnerable and smart in very interesting ways and clueless in others, we're good, baby.

Lewis Howes 1:01:18 Right. [laughs]

Annie Särnblad 1:01:18 Like I... We are good. And then I love you for that person. You feel full and happy and adored and, "Oh my gosh, and I'm so safe and I'm comfortable with Annie, and she sees me and she loves me, and I feel love for her back," and that's beautiful, and that's real.

Lewis Howes 1:01:36 Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 1:01:36 And that's into the soul. But if somebody really loves you, if I come and see you when you're lying in bed and you're sick in the hospital and your face is, is yellow and you, you know, it, and you have circles under your eyes and, and I hold your hand, and I love your soul, I don't care what you look like if I love you. That doesn't matter. But our connection and our trust and your ability to see me and my ability to see you, that's what real love is. If we're pretending to be somebody else, we never get fulfilled from love.

Lewis Howes 1:02:10 That's true.

Annie Särnblad 1:02:11 You know, we don't love a child because they're clever and they say the right thing, we just love them 'cause we love them. We love their sweet little souls.

Lewis Howes 1:02:19 You know, they're not communicating to us perfectly. They're, you know, they're crying, they're screaming, they're joyful. They're a range of emotions-

Annie Särnblad 1:02:25 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:02:25 ... and we just love them.

Annie Särnblad 1:02:26 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:02:27 We may be frustrated at times, but we love them.

Annie Särnblad 1:02:29 Well, and that's real, and the frustration is, is, is real too, and it's in the conflict that we learn to, to know each other.

Lewis Howes 1:02:36 Yes.

Annie Särnblad 1:02:36 There's a Swedish saying, "I konflikten ... Det är i konflikten som vi lär känna varandra," which is, "In the conflict... It's in the conflict that we learn to know each other." And I love just the way, without over-translating it, it's when we fight and we resolve and we understand, okay, you feel differently, you express yourself differently, and you're showing me what you really... That's real. And we can't have a real deep connection if we're not willing to disagree, and we're not willing to explain why we disagree. We can't learn from each other.

Lewis Howes 1:03:05 Mm.

Annie Särnblad 1:03:06 And so I'm only interested... And, and I... You know, this, this idea of publishing my diary is insane, but I don't care, because I don't wanna be loved for anybody other than who I am. It's not real otherwise.

Lewis Howes 1:03:21 Yeah, that's beautiful. As a human lie detector, uh, and able to spot lies and spot the tells, if someone has no clue of how to tap into facial expression, reading facial expression, or maybe they're not gonna go through the entire book at some point, and you could give people three keys to, I guess, spotting a lie-

Annie Särnblad 1:03:46 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:03:47 ... or a liar-

Annie Särnblad 1:03:48 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:03:48 ... what would those things be?

Annie Särnblad 1:03:50 Watch for the bunny rabbit nose. Right? If they're saying a positive and they're doing the negative bunny, the bad bunny... [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:04:01 That's a, that's a potential liar.

Annie Särnblad 1:04:02 If they're doing... That's, that's a liar. That should be, "I don't like this. That makes me angry." Okay, fine, that... If you're saying something negative and you're doing that, that's a problem. That should match a negative sentence.

Lewis Howes 1:04:14 Mm-hmm.

Annie Särnblad 1:04:15 Right? Um, so we're talking about just spotting a liar?

Lewis Howes 1:04:20 Yeah, if someone's lying.

Annie Särnblad 1:04:21 If someone doesn't-

Lewis Howes 1:04:21 If someone's lying to you-

Annie Särnblad 1:04:22 Well, so-

Lewis Howes 1:04:22 ... how can you tell?

Annie Särnblad 1:04:23 Going to body language, um, there's a couple things. If you're in Western society, this means yes and this means no. So saying, "I did not sleep with that lady," that's a problem.

Lewis Howes 1:04:33 Mm.

Annie Särnblad 1:04:34 A no with a not now. If you go to Southeast Asia, if you go to India, there's lots of different head movements, right?

Lewis Howes 1:04:40 There's side to side. It's a... Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 1:04:40 There's lots of side to side. I don't know all of them. I know some of them. Um, but in, in Europe, in the US, Mexico, Canada-

Lewis Howes 1:04:49 Yeah

Annie Särnblad 1:04:49 ... this is yes and this is no, and our bodies will leak that all the time. And my son said to me the other day, wanted to go out with some friends for the weekend, and I said, "Maybe." And he goes, "Thanks." And I said, "What? I just said maybe." And he goes, "Yeah, but when you say maybe and you nod-

Lewis Howes 1:05:05 Mm

Annie Särnblad 1:05:05 ... it means you're gonna say yes, and when you say maybe and you shake your head, you're gonna say no."

Lewis Howes 1:05:09 Wow.

Annie Särnblad 1:05:09 So I look for that tell. That's a really, really concrete tell.

Lewis Howes 1:05:13 Okay.

Annie Särnblad 1:05:14 That's not microexpressions, it's body language, but it's pretty spot on, and it is culturally adjusted-

Lewis Howes 1:05:19 Oh

Annie Särnblad 1:05:19 ... 'cause this doesn't mean yes in every co- in every culture. And then I would watch for the weird words in the sentence.

Lewis Howes 1:05:26 Like what?

Annie Särnblad 1:05:27 So going, again... And so adding qualifiers. I had a guy who tell me, "I'm a, I'm a mostly good guy." And I was like-

Lewis Howes 1:05:33 Ooh

Annie Särnblad 1:05:33 ... "Dude, you are not a good guy. You couldn't even-

Lewis Howes 1:05:37 I was gonna say, "I'm pretty good." Yeah

Annie Särnblad 1:05:37 ... stomach saying it." [laughs] He added the word mostly. And first of all, most, most guys won't say, "I'm a good guy." Like, why are you trying to convince me that you're a good guy? That's weird. But if there's any extra words that, that just feel unnatural, so those are qualifiers. And then distancing language. "I did not have relations with that woman," with somebody that you know well or somebody who calls their, their, their wife the wife, that's a problem. That shows weird intentions.

Lewis Howes 1:06:05 With the wife as opposed to my wife.

Annie Särnblad 1:06:07 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:06:08 Oh.

Annie Särnblad 1:06:08 Or S- Cindy or Sarah or-

Lewis Howes 1:06:09 You're disconnecting it-

Annie Särnblad 1:06:11 It-

Lewis Howes 1:06:11 ... a little bit farther than the relationship is

Annie Särnblad 1:06:12 What we call distant- distancing language.

Lewis Howes 1:06:14 Interesting. Wow. So being aware of that, and be like, "Okay, there's something underneath that."

Annie Särnblad 1:06:18 So the biggest thing that I would say is if s- if you feel like something's off, whether or not your brain has the vocabulary and the science to tell you why your brain's speaking the truth, you, we know it.

Lewis Howes 1:06:32 Do men lie differently than women?

Annie Särnblad 1:06:35 So I have friends that will lie to themselves.

Lewis Howes 1:06:38 [laughs]

Annie Särnblad 1:06:39 And I feel like a lot of the, the men in my life will lie to themselves.

Lewis Howes 1:06:44 The men will lie to themselves.

Annie Särnblad 1:06:45 Yeah, they will.

Lewis Howes 1:06:45 Like how so? What's-

Annie Särnblad 1:06:46 "I'm comfortable with this. I can absolutely do this." And I'm like, "Oh, honey, do you need a hug?" [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:06:50 Oh, wow. And what will women do?

Annie Särnblad 1:06:52 I think we're too hard on ourselves. I think, I mean, I think women and, and men are both too hard on ourselves, but men manifest it in, in just kind of plowing through and not pausing to feel the emotions because that, as, as, you know, you so know, as we've been trained, especially in the US, that vulnerability is weakness, and you can't- intimacy, there is no intimacy without vulnerability. It just doesn't even exist.

Lewis Howes 1:07:15 Yes.

Annie Särnblad 1:07:15 So we have to be our true selves, and we have to feel like that's okay.

Lewis Howes 1:07:19 Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 1:07:19 And that's who, that's how we feel loved. If we're gonna just show this polished poise, we're never gonna feel filled. Um, so women tend to be too negative on themselves and, um, put other people's needs first in a way that's self-deprecating and, um, and sometimes even to the point where it's dangerous to themselves. We, we all... If we, if we're good at loving ourselves and caring for ourselves, then we have, you know, our batteries are filled, so we have something to offer.

Lewis Howes 1:07:50 I'm so glad you're putting this book out there-

Annie Särnblad 1:07:52 Thank you

Lewis Howes 1:07:52 ... and this, this work out there. Diary of a Human LIE DETECTOR: Facial Expressions in Love, Lust, and Lies. Um, make sure you guys get a copy of this. Also, there's a, the facial expression glossary, which is in the back of this book, essentially, as well.

Annie Särnblad 1:08:05 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:08:06 Um, we'll have both of those linked up there. This is really powerful. This gives you information and intel to understand if you are safe in relationships or, you know, if you're in a good position at your work, if you are surrounded by good friends who are well-intended.

Annie Särnblad 1:08:22 Yes.

Lewis Howes 1:08:23 Um, you know, ha- teaching your kids these things. These tools are extremely powerful. So I'm really grateful that you're creating this and finally revealing this to the world. So I want to acknowledge you, Annie, for, for your work over the last, I don't know how long it's been, but a long time of doing this work and now sharing it with the masses.

Annie Särnblad 1:08:42 Thank you.

Lewis Howes 1:08:42 Where it was once for just, you know, powerful people that were paying you a lot, now you're sharing this to so many people, and, uh, it's gonna help a lot of people, so thank you for this work. I'm very grateful for you. I have a couple final questions for you, Annie. Um, this one is a hypothetical question. It's called three truths.

Annie Särnblad 1:08:58 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:08:58 So imagine, [laughs] speaking of lie detection, but imagine, uh, you get to live as long as you want in this life. Hypothetical scenario. You get to live as long as you want and create the life of your dreams from this moment moving forward. But for whatever reason, all of your work and your information, this book, this conversation, and anything you create, we don't have access to after you pass.

Annie Särnblad 1:09:20 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:09:20 After your last day. It goes with you to wherever the, the next place is for you. But you get to leave behind three things you know to be true, three lessons to the world, and this is all we would have to remember you by. What would those three truths be for you?

Annie Särnblad 1:09:36 So that's really interesting because the reason I finally put this book out was that I realized I'm mortal, and do I, do I die with it? Do I die with the things that only I know? And the answer is no.

Lewis Howes 1:09:50 Mm-hmm.

Annie Särnblad 1:09:51 Um, this book is really, um, a love letter to my children's friends. I've taught my children everything that they need to know, but their friends come over and they say, "Annie, Annie, teach us one thing. Teach us one thing." So I, this is everything. This is all the things. Um, and so I really want people to learn the facial expressions so that they can recognize truth.

Lewis Howes 1:10:14 Mm-hmm.

Annie Särnblad 1:10:14 So they can make safe decisions about their lives. But the really important thing is that when we understand facial expressions, we increase our ability to listen, and we, we really listen to each other, we can love each other well.

Lewis Howes 1:10:32 Mm-hmm.

Annie Särnblad 1:10:33 And so one of the truths would definitely be that almost everybody is struggling. Be kind.

Lewis Howes 1:10:41 Mm.

Annie Särnblad 1:10:41 Because that little... As soon as I said, "Struggle," you puckered your little chin 'cause you know that's true, right? You know that you've struggled. You know that your loved ones struggle, and all the people that you talk to are, because you show your vulnerability, they will tell you about their struggles. Be authentic and be true, because that's the only hope any of us e- ever really have-

Lewis Howes 1:11:02 Yeah

Annie Särnblad 1:11:02 ... of loving well and being loved. And then this other piece, I, I think neurodiversity is a beautiful thing.

Lewis Howes 1:11:10 Mm-hmm.

Annie Särnblad 1:11:10 We humans like to think, it makes us feel comfortable and safe to think that everybody's wired the same way we are. And when we really listen to other people, we understand that we're all wired a little bit differently. Our brains are funky, and nobody's good at everything.

Lewis Howes 1:11:29 Right.

Annie Särnblad 1:11:29 We're a little wonky as humans.

Lewis Howes 1:11:31 Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 1:11:32 And, um, and it goes back to this pretending. Like, there's no reason to pretend that we're all good at, at the same things. We build teams, we build tribes, we build families on the idea that we're good at different things, and we have different things to contribute. We should be grateful for that, and we should honor it in each other. Um, and we should, we should love each other-

Lewis Howes 1:11:55 Mm

Annie Särnblad 1:11:55 ... for our differences, and that's, that's a good thing.

Lewis Howes 1:11:58 Mm. That's beautiful. Yeah.

Annie Särnblad 1:12:00 Was that three? Did I get three?

Lewis Howes 1:12:00 That's three. Yeah, that was three. Uh, again, the book, Diary of a Human LIE DETECTOR. Make sure you guys grab a copy. Get one for a friend. We'll have everything linked up, uh, with your website, where they can connect with you, social media and all those different things. Um, I've got one final question, though. Curious, what is your definition of greatness?

Annie Särnblad 1:12:20 To love well and to be well loved. That's it.

Lewis Howes 1:12:25 Thanks so much, Annie. Appreciate it.

Annie Särnblad 1:12:26 You also.

1:12:27 So I had a, a case I was on the defense of, and lady had been hurt in a accident, and I knew very much that she was, she acted like she was a-okay, and that's okay 'cause you, you can be hurt in an accident and turn out to be fine later. That's, there's nothing wrong with that. But what she had done was overextended herself