Sam Harris: Mindfulness vs. Happiness Part 1 with Lewis Howes

Sam Harris 0:00 The, the most concerning thing about our world is not that there are a lot of bad people doing bad things. It's a, a lot of good people doing bad things uh, under the s- the sway of unfounded and, and dangerous and divisive beliefs. [upbeat electronic music]

Lewis Howes 0:29 Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness podcast. We've got the iconic and legendary Sam Harris in the house. Good to see you, sir.

Sam Harris 0:35 Pleasure to be here.

Lewis Howes 0:36 Thank you for being here.

Sam Harris 0:37 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 0:37 Uh, I've heard about you for many years, all incredible things, and I'm excited to dive into your whole life.

Sam Harris 0:44 Yeah. All right. I'm down.

Lewis Howes 0:44 Let's start from childhood. No, I'm just kidding.

Sam Harris 0:46 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 0:47 Now you've been, uh, you've been really known for meditation over the last few years more and more, from what I've heard from you. It's more about meditation. You've got this incredible app, the Waking Up app.

Sam Harris 0:57 Mm.

Lewis Howes 0:58 And your voice is so soothing that it's very relaxing as well.

Sam Harris 1:01 Yeah, or soporific, depending on-

Lewis Howes 1:02 Exactly

Sam Harris 1:03 ... you know, yes.

Lewis Howes 1:04 And when did you get into meditation, and why did you feel like it was necessary for your life?

Sam Harris 1:09 Uh, I was 18 and, um, I had a drug experience with MDMA, and this-

Lewis Howes 1:15 Mm-hmm

Sam Harris 1:15 ... is before MDMA was the-

Lewis Howes 1:17 Kind of cool, right [laughs]

Sam Harris 1:18 ... yeah, yeah. I mean, literally, I had, I knew no one in my generation who had tried it or had even heard of it. I mean, I'm sure someone had, but, um, it was, uh, this was '86, I think, um, '85, '86.

Lewis Howes 1:31 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 1:31 And, uh, so, you know, raves, as far as I know, hadn't been invented, and-

Lewis Howes 1:36 Mm-hmm

Sam Harris 1:36 ... it's, you know, and, and s- and this was, this was kind of an export from the psychotherapeutic community that had been using it for quite some time. And so it was given to me explicitly as a, as a tool to explore the, the nature of consciousness and to realize something fundamental about, about the, uh, e- especially kind of relationships and, you know, my own emotional life.

Lewis Howes 2:00 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 2:00 And I really didn't know what to expect. I can't, 'cause I, I'd only known one person who had taken it. And, um, so I sat down with my best friend and we, we tried this drug, and it was, it was, it really amounted to a, a total firmware upgrade of my brain.

Lewis Howes 2:20 Mm.

Sam Harris 2:20 I mean, it was just, you know, it's not, and again, I, I don't want to sound like a booster for psychedelics entirely. I mean, there's, there are downsides to all these drugs. Uh, you know, you, you know, I think, I think MDA, MDMA in particular stands a chance of being somewhat neurotoxic, you know.

Lewis Howes 2:33 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 2:34 The, the, the data at l- at least is ambiguous on that. Um, people can have bad experiences certainly on LSD and psilocybin, and I've had those experiences. And so I, it, it's a mixed message. And I have a, a, a chapter in my book, Waking Up, uh, titled D- uh, Drugs and the Meaning of Life, and there's actually an audio version of that on, uh, on my podcast. It's, uh, like it might even be the first podcast. So if people want the, the full story there, they can get it. But, um, the, the reality for me was that this, and, and this is true for many people, MDMA showed me a landscape of mind and, and a way of being that I didn't realize was possible. You know, I was an 18-year-old who was, you know, very egocentric and, you know, my ego was well-defended and, and-

Lewis Howes 3:17 [laughs]

Sam Harris 3:17 ... I, you know, I had no, you know, the notion of experiencing unconditional love had not-

Lewis Howes 3:21 Mm

Sam Harris 3:21 ... occurred to me. And, you know, it was, and there's just many things that I just was not... You know, if, if you'd asked me, you know, what was someone like relig- uh, so was someone like Jesus talking about, and what were the, what, what, what's the core of all of the religions that people take so seriously, the experiential core of it, uh, I would, I think I had just an empty file on that, and I just had no sense of, you know, what people had been doing for the last 2,000 years-

Lewis Howes 3:46 Wow

Sam Harris 3:46 ... to, to transform the, their experience. So, um, so I had this experience of yeah, of, you know, unconditional love is not too strong a word. And-

Lewis Howes 3:57 So during this, uh, experience, you felt unconditional love?

Sam Harris 4:00 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 4:01 Gotcha.

Sam Harris 4:01 Yeah. I mean, what, uh, what I felt was, uh, kind of layers of self-concern there that I, I didn't even know existed get stripped away, and what was left was a, a state of being that was just wide open and, and has had a, as its ethical core just unlimited good intention toward-

Lewis Howes 4:26 Wow

Sam Harris 4:26 ... other people, whether they're friends or strangers. And I realized that I loved strangers in the same way that I loved friends and family at, at, at the, at the most basic level because I just wanted everyone to be happy. And, and, and the, that desire was so, was so... it was just turned up to 11, right?

Lewis Howes 4:45 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 4:45 So it was just like, uh, so you realize that's, if, if your, if the real ballast for you emotionally and ethically is that you want other people to be happy, you want them to have beautiful lives, you want them to be, to, to realize their, their dreams, you want their, uh... I mean, you basically, you, you realize that there's, th- there's the sense that there's a zero-sum contest between your wellbeing or your happiness-

Lewis Howes 5:15 Mm-hmm

Sam Harris 5:15 ... and, uh, others is an illusion, right? I mean, you want all boats to rise with, with-

Lewis Howes 5:20 Right

Sam Harris 5:20 ... some tide, then, then-

Lewis Howes 5:21 Win-win experience for everyone.

Sam Harris 5:22 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 5:23 Yeah.

Sam Harris 5:23 Um, so you want po- positive-sum interactions with people. Um, that was, I mean, that just, it just bowled over every other, uh, uh, wrinkle in my, uh, in my mind for, for the period of, you know, four hours, right?

Lewis Howes 5:39 Wow.

Sam Harris 5:39 So there was just, there was no, uh, there was no limit to that. And it's not transactional. You, you realize that that is actually a state of being. That's, that's the way your, uh, that could be the default state of your own consciousness if you could only locate it, you know? And then coming down from an experience like that, you know, the drug wears off, and then-

Lewis Howes 5:56 Mm-hmm

Sam Harris 5:56 ... you, you're returned to who you used to be-

Lewis Howes 5:58 [laughs]

Sam Harris 5:58 ... uh, with the memory of what it was like a few hours before. And so that, then- Uh, there was an imperative to figure out what, just what was possible in terms of, of, you know, techniques like meditation-

Lewis Howes 6:12 Mm-hmm

Sam Harris 6:12 ... or, you know, ch- uh, new understandings of how the mind works. I mean, what, what... There, there's clearly a path. There must be a path by which one can have that experience more and more of the time.

Lewis Howes 6:22 Sure.

Sam Harris 6:23 And so then my notion of just what, what, uh, the goal of meditation was, I mean, that, that has actually changed a bit. It's not about producing this state of unconditional love all the time. I mean, I, I think that's, that's not actually the center of the bullseye. But that was the first experience I had, which, which gave me a sense that there, there's a path and there's some- something to do.

Lewis Howes 6:41 Did you ever feel like you had a sense of unconditional love before that moment?

Sam Harris 6:45 Oh, no. No. I mean, I had no reference point for it.

Lewis Howes 6:48 No reference.

Sam Harris 6:48 I mean, I had love for, you know, I love my mom, right? Like, you know, I, I, you know, there's no... Love was a noun that I, I could use, uh, you know, honestly. But no, there was no, uh... I mean, there hadn't been a glimmer of that experience, really.

Lewis Howes 7:05 Wow.

Sam Harris 7:05 I mean, it was actually the first moment in my life that I felt sane. And I, and I hadn't realized that-

Lewis Howes 7:09 You were 18.

Sam Harris 7:10 Yeah. No. I mean, it, well, and it was only by comparison to all previous states. I mean, to, like, I had this experience and I realized, "Okay, okay. This is, this is sanity." Right? Like, they, you know, they, and-

Lewis Howes 7:21 This is how it should be.

Sam Harris 7:22 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 7:22 Yeah.

Sam Harris 7:22 Yeah. I mean, and this, and the return to one's normal waking, you know, narcissistic, uh, neurotic consciousness-

Lewis Howes 7:31 [laughs]

Sam Harris 7:32 ... was one of not, not being restored to... I, because, because everyone's concern here is that. I mean, so a drug, drugs, you know, one problem is we have this word drug-

Lewis Howes 7:42 Uh-huh

Sam Harris 7:42 ... that, that is the, the word we use to, to cover this vast class of compounds that are psychoactive. And some drugs are awful and not worth taking, and just intrinsically bad for you, both in terms of what they do to you neurophysiologically-

Lewis Howes 7:56 Right

Sam Harris 7:56 ... and, and the kinds of states of consciousness that people, you know, in, experience there. Um, and other drugs, you know, I would argue, uh, have immense therapeutic value-

Lewis Howes 8:07 Mm-hmm

Sam Harris 8:07 ... and, and are worth taking under, under the right conditions. Um, and MDMA is certainly one of those drugs, and it's being used for, as a, as a remedy for PTSD now in a lot of research-

Lewis Howes 8:18 Yeah

Sam Harris 8:18 ... to great effect. Um, but people think, "Oh, you've taken a drug, so this by definition, this is, uh, artificial. This is a, this... So whatever you experience there is, is less like the real you-

Lewis Howes 8:35 Mm

Sam Harris 8:35 ... than whatever r- returns when the drug wears off," right? Um, but that wasn't the experience, and that's certainly not the experience as you get deeper into things like meditation that don't en- entail drugs, right? That you can actually discover that the way you're tending to be, the way you're, you've been conditioned to be by life and, and, you know, biology, frankly. I mean, we're not... You know, evolution has not designed us to, to maximize our wellbeing. Evolution has designed us to, to be fairly paranoid.

Lewis Howes 9:04 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 9:05 Uh, and-

Lewis Howes 9:05 To try to stay safe, right?

Sam Harris 9:06 Yeah, yeah. I mean, we're not-

Lewis Howes 9:07 Protect ourselves.

Sam Harris 9:08 We're, we're apes.

Lewis Howes 9:09 Right. Right.

Sam Harris 9:09 You know? It's just, i- this is not about our happiness. On, so, from the, the, the gene's eye view of what we're doing here is not, you know, maximizing human happiness and building a global civilization that will endure for a million years, right? That's just not what our genes care about, you know?

Lewis Howes 9:26 They care about being safe, or...?

Sam Harris 9:28 Well, they care about, the, I mean, all we've evolved to do is maximize the likelihood that we will successfully spawn and stay around long enough to see that our progeny survive and spawn, right? So it's like you're, you know, once you're 40 years old, evolution doesn't care about you, [laughs] you know, for the most part.

Lewis Howes 9:45 Right.

Sam Harris 9:45 I mean, there's, I, I guess there's some argument that grandparents are a value or even great-grandparents are a value, but, like, it's just, it, it can't see, uh, so much of what, uh, we need to be happy, right? Uh, you know, it's like we, we're, we're deeply conditioned for tribal violence, right? Now, tribal violence is just, is something that we obviously have to outgrow, globally speaking. Um, uh, we're deeply conditioned to

Sam Harris 10:16 perceive ourselves in at least potentially hostile relationships with all other, you know, apes like ourselves. And, um, and yet the self, the, the feeling of self, and this is, this is act- actually getting closer to what I think the, the, the goal of meditation is, uh, the sense of self is an illusion.

Lewis Howes 10:37 Mm.

Sam Harris 10:37 Right? This is a, this is a construct that can be felt through and, and discovered to actually be false. Uh, and there's a, there's immense amount of good that comes with that discovery, but it's not something that, that, uh, has paid, uh, adaptive dividends in the past. And it's, it, it's something that, you know, it might actually be, um, hostile to what, uh, uh, would keep an a- an ape, you know, safe, you know, uh, for, for the, for the millions of years, uh, we and our ancestors have evolved, right? So there are many things, there are many good things, in fact, I would argue most good things that we want to be able to pay attention to in the year 2019, um, and that we wanna have the free attention to, to, the free attention to, to explore, um, are, would be counterproductive if, you know, you were returned to the savanna-

Lewis Howes 11:33 Mm-hmm

Sam Harris 11:33 ... and just, just i- in a contest of all against all.

Lewis Howes 11:37 Right.

Sam Harris 11:37 You know? So, I mean, everything from, I mean, you know, uh, you know, conversations like this. I mean, we're, we're, we're gonna talk about almost nothing that a- that apes like ourselves have needed to focus on-

Lewis Howes 11:50 Care about

Sam Harris 11:50 ... for, for 500,000 years.

Lewis Howes 11:51 When did we start to focus on the desire to be happy? When, like what year or years or decades was this where we really said, "Okay, we've got our needs met, or basic needs met. Let's focus on being happy and feeling unconditional love more"?

Sam Harris 12:07 Well, well, it depends w- who you're talking about, 'cause most of, uh- Most of humanity, even at this moment, doesn't have the free attention to really think seriously about what it means to be happy. You know, it's just, I mean, it- th- well, you just look at the economic comparatives of, you know, most people in most situations. It's not about, uh, really having the, the free attention to do whatever you want or what you, what y- what you would think at the end of the day, uh, would be most satisfying, right? So-

Lewis Howes 12:37 It's about survival more-

Sam Harris 12:38 Yeah

Lewis Howes 12:38 ... basic needs and-

Sam Harris 12:39 Yeah, yeah. And, and or just you're living in a situation of stark political insecurity, right?

Lewis Howes 12:46 Right.

Sam Harris 12:46 You're just worried about, you know, what sort of violence may happen in the street later today or, like, what you, what you may or may not say-

Lewis Howes 12:53 Mm-hmm

Sam Harris 12:53 ... that could get you jailed, right? You know, so-

Lewis Howes 12:55 It's crazy.

Sam Harris 12:56 It's, it's nuts. So, like, so, so much of human history has been just fig- figuring out how to get strangers to cooperate reliably enough so that they have the free attention to explore the things we want to explore so that, yeah, we can figure out why, you know, why we're dying from diseases and then s- you know, cancel them, right?

Lewis Howes 13:15 Right.

Sam Harris 13:15 So, like, like, just, just to, just to be able to do science is a luxury, right?

Lewis Howes 13:20 Sure.

Sam Harris 13:20 And, um, and this is where, I mean, you know, you know, as you probably know, I've spent a lot of time criticizing organized religion, uh, because, you know, historically and even currently, so much of it is hostile to, I mean, so- so- so much of it is putting in place of, of, of real curiosity and a real search for answers i- th- Iron Age fictions that just got, you know, co- codified in books-

Lewis Howes 13:46 Mm-hmm

Sam Harris 13:47 ... that can't be edited, right? So as, in my view, the, the main tool we have to navigate now, and this has always been the case, but i- it's, it's just more and more imperative that we realize this, the main tool is human conversation. And what every religion is, is a, an insistence by a certain group of people, uh, that we anchor ourselves to a conversation that, that w- was held hundreds or thousands of years ago.

Lewis Howes 14:14 Right.

Sam Harris 14:14 So, and-

Lewis Howes 14:14 Right

Sam Harris 14:14 ... so it's like e- either you wanna y- have the best ideas actionable and, and, and, um, you know, interpretable now, or you wanna be hostage to what y- y- your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather and grandmother thought was true about the nature of reality. And if you go back far enough, you're talking to people who knew absolutely nothing that a, a sixth grader knows today.

Lewis Howes 14:39 Right.

Sam Harris 14:39 You know? I mean, l- literally, if you could g-

Lewis Howes 14:41 [laughs]

Sam Harris 14:41 ... get a, build a time machine and send a sixth grader back 1,000 years, that boy or girl would be the, the smartest and wisest person on Earth-

Lewis Howes 14:52 In the world

Sam Harris 14:52 ... on, on, on so many topics, right? I mean, just, just to know that electricity exists, right, you're a, you're a savant, right? So-

Lewis Howes 14:59 [laughs]

Sam Harris 15:00 ... um, or that DNA has something to do with biological inheritance.

Lewis Howes 15:03 Right.

Sam Harris 15:04 Or, or, or the, the germ theory of disease. I mean, imagine being the, the, the lone person on Earth who understood that, you know, you should, you should wash your hands-

Lewis Howes 15:11 Oh

Sam Harris 15:11 ... before you deliver babies.

Lewis Howes 15:12 You save the world.

Sam Harris 15:13 Yeah, exactly.

Lewis Howes 15:14 You save humanity from that, yeah.

Sam Harris 15:15 So it's insane that we are captive to doctrines-

Lewis Howes 15:22 Mm

Sam Harris 15:22 ... that, uh, just w- were never in contact with, with the, with the knowledge base that we, we have currently.

Lewis Howes 15:29 Wh- why do so many people believe so strongly in their religion? And I'm not here to say if someone's right or wrong, but why do they believe so str-

Sam Harris 15:37 I am. I, that's why I came on the podcast. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 15:37 Okay. [laughs] Right, you can do what you wanna say.

Sam Harris 15:39 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 15:39 Why do so many people, I mean, there's billions of people that still believe in religion-

Sam Harris 15:44 Yeah

Lewis Howes 15:44 ... that have a religion, and that believe so firmly in the beliefs of the books from their religion, and yet they can't prove any of those things from those books. Is that right? Is that fair to say?

Sam Harris 15:57 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 15:57 Can't prove that-

Sam Harris 15:58 Well, they certainly can't prove those things, yes

Lewis Howes 15:59 ... certain things actually happened-

Sam Harris 16:00 Yeah

Lewis Howes 16:00 ... in certain books.

Sam Harris 16:02 Right.

Lewis Howes 16:02 Except for just that someone wrote a story about it.

Sam Harris 16:04 I mean, s- yeah. I mean, some imagine that they, they have proof, but I mean, it's, it's often-

Lewis Howes 16:08 There's no actual physical proof today that these things happened.

Sam Harris 16:11 No, and I mean, it's worse still. The, the, the books themselves say that they're inerrant, right? I mean, the Quran says that it's inerrant, and the Bible says that it's inerrant in various places. And that is taken as evidence of its inerrancy. Well, I mean, the Lord of the Rings could, I mean, Tolkien could have put a line in there which said, "This is, you know, perfectly true, and, you know, any doubt, uh, otherwise would get you, you know, consigned to hell."

Lewis Howes 16:33 Yeah.

Sam Harris 16:33 And that wouldn't prove that the, the, the book is true. So it's, it's just, i- it, you know, it doesn't, um, can-

Lewis Howes 16:39 So, so-

Sam Harris 16:39 And, and the amazing thing is that, you know, uh, every Christian looks at the Quran and looks at the, the whole discourse around it, within Islam, and finds it completely unpersuasive, you know, and every Muslim returns the favor with respect to Christianity. So it's, it's not, um, if you stand outside of one of these traditions, you can see that the language game that they're playing within it to justify everything is, is illegitimate. But in, in defense of religious people, it's true that there are these core needs in life emotionally, uh, and socially that secular culture has been very slow to meet, and in certain cases, has almost nothing to say, right, right? So, I mean, with, uh, with, uh, especially with respect to the kinds of experiences, you know, we started this conversation on. I mean, it's just, you know, like, the experience of self-transcendence-

Lewis Howes 17:31 Yeah

Sam Harris 17:31 ... or the experience of unconditional love. If you have that experience and you wake up tomorrow morning feeling unconditional love for all sentient beings, right, you, you... Traditionally there has been no language w- with which to greet that epiphany-

Lewis Howes 17:48 Mm

Sam Harris 17:48 ... but religious language.

Lewis Howes 17:49 Right.

Sam Harris 17:49 I mean, so y- if you go into a church and say, "Listen, I've just had this experience," they have a lot to tell you about, you know, Jesus and, and-

Lewis Howes 17:56 Sure

Sam Harris 17:56 ... His grace and, and, you know, and, um, uh, the power of prayer and, uh, uh, it links up with 2,000 years of seeking experiences of that, uh, kind in a contemplative context, you know, monks and nuns. Uh, and I mean, if you go too far, then they begin to worry that you're, you know, you- you're, you're too heterodox and that, you know, in, in the 14th century, if you went too far, you know, they would burn you at the stake because you're-

Lewis Howes 18:22 Right. Yeah

Sam Harris 18:23 ... you're claiming to be God yourself, or you're claiming to be the equivalent of Jesus, right?

Lewis Howes 18:27 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 18:27 So there, there's a, there's a hierarchy there that you have to respect, and the same is true for Islam. Um, but, um, yeah, I mean, so there is a baby in the bathwater that, that religious people are right to worry is being disregarded or being thrown out, uh, when you criticize faith-

Lewis Howes 18:46 Yeah. Yeah

Sam Harris 18:46 ... and, and criticize these doctrines. Um, and then the, the other reason that religion endures, and it's really the main one, is that, you know, we all die, and, and the people we love die.

Lewis Howes 18:57 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 18:57 And that, uh, is intolerable, and it has... It's true that if you can believe a sufficiently consoling story about what death means or what it doesn't mean, um, a lot of the stress of life goes away.

Lewis Howes 19:16 Gives you more peace.

Sam Harris 19:17 Yeah, I mean, it to- in certain cases, total peace.

Lewis Howes 19:22 Right.

Sam Harris 19:22 I mean, the, like, i- in certain cases, it's, if you believe the sufficient doctrines, it's a good thing. I mean, you can literally get yourself into a p- into a situation, as is often happens under Islam, where, you know, a, a, a mother can legitimately celebrate the, you know, the suicide bombing perpetrated by her jihadist son-

Lewis Howes 19:43 Because she knows she'll see him. Yeah

Sam Harris 19:44 ... because she knows he, he got into paradise-

Lewis Howes 19:47 Wow

Sam Harris 19:47 ... as a martyr, and he got the whole family in there, too, right? This is like, you know, it's the-

Lewis Howes 19:51 The ultimate sacrifice.

Sam Harris 19:53 Yeah, and it's, it's all good. I mean, i- if you really believe it, it's all good. Nothing has gone wrong there.

Lewis Howes 20:00 Right.

Sam Harris 20:00 And, and so that's the power of belief, and that's what, uh, you know, it's the insidious power of belief because it's the thing that... I mean, something like suicide bombing should be impossible. It should be impossible to convince somebody to do that, right? Uh, it's, I mean, it should be, it should be synonymous with, you know, severe depression and just, you know, a, an inability to find any goodness in life. That's not the kind of person who becomes a jihadist and, and, and becomes a suicide bomber. These are not the, you know, depressed people who would otherwise be, you know, medicated in a mental hospital, um, uh, because their depression is so severe. No. This, these are people who have a lot to live for, for the most part.

Lewis Howes 20:43 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 20:43 You know, they're disproportionately well-educated. These are people who are, you know, come out of engineering programs and colleges. They can get jobs. They, there's, there's economic opportunity. You know, they have, they, they have sincere beliefs, in this case martyrdom and, and the reality of paradise. Um, so yeah, so I've spent a lot of time, uh, you know, worrying out loud about the consequences of those kinds of ideas because-

Lewis Howes 21:06 Mm-hmm

Sam Harris 21:07 ... for me, or the, the most concerning thing about our world is not that there are a lot of bad people doing bad things. It's a, a lot of good people doing bad things, uh, under the, the sway of unfounded and, and dangerous and divisive beliefs.

Lewis Howes 21:25 Right.

Sam Harris 21:26 Ideas are-

Lewis Howes 21:26 Right

Sam Harris 21:26 ... way more powerful than, you know, the, the 1% of us, or the half of 1% of us, who just happen to be psychopaths.

Lewis Howes 21:33 Right, [laughs] right.

Sam Harris 21:35 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 21:35 'Cause if you put a belief in... It's like Inception. It's like you planted a, an idea so deeply in someone's mind that this is going to happen. They believe it so much that they're willing to do whatever it takes-

Sam Harris 21:45 Yeah

Lewis Howes 21:45 ... to make it reality.

Sam Harris 21:47 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 21:47 I'm curious, what do you believe happens when we die?

Sam Harris 21:50 I don't know. I just, I, I don't know. I, maybe that would require that we understand exactly how consciousness arises, and, and we don't understand that yet. Um, I mean, there's, there's certainly good reason to doubt that you, as you experience yourself most of the time as, you know, the, the, the English-speaking, uh, you know, uh, um, person who, or subject who, uh, has the episodic memories you have of your life-

Lewis Howes 22:26 Mm-hmm

Sam Harris 22:27 ... um, uh, that that entity, uh, floats off the brain and goes elsewhere, right? And that's, that's the expectation that most people have who believe in souls, right? And, and when you, when you hear people use, uh, so-called near-death experiences to justify a belief in an afterlife, that's, it's, it's that kind of-

Lewis Howes 22:46 Mm-hmm

Sam Harris 22:46 ... arithmetic that's being done. They say, "Well, I was, you know, I, I, I saw myself in a tunnel of light," or, "I saw... I, you know, I rose up off the table that they were performing surgery on me. I could see myself. Uh, but then I realized I was, you know, not connected to my body, and then I, you know..." And then, then there's some story about how they, you know, met entities or met, even met members of their own family who had died, you know? And-

Lewis Howes 23:08 Mm

Sam Harris 23:08 ... and they're... You know, so if you can recognize your grandma and still understand English and then still have a memory of, of, of the life you're leaving, all, all of those are modes of cognition, um, that we know a fair amount about at the level of the brain now, and we know they can be disrupted, uh, piecemeal in life, right? You know that, we know that if you get a stroke or if you just, if you go into a lab and they do TMS on you, transcranial magnetic stimulation, they can interrupt certain functions which, you know, really are, are no longer there anymore just because w- the, you know, the, that neural real estate has been perturbed.

Lewis Howes 23:48 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 23:48 And so yet, so the proposition here is that, you know, if you interrupt one part of neur- neuronal function, you lose, let's say, your capacity to understand English, right?

Lewis Howes 23:58 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 23:59 Um, but if you destroy the brain at death, everything about yourself that's familiar will c- persists, right? That doesn't make a lot of sense. Uh, so mind, we know a lot about mind being dependent on the brain. You know, all the f- any function you could Point to in yourself. You know, w- your vision

Lewis Howes 24:18 Mind, mind versus brain. What's the difference?

Sam Harris 24:20 Well, I mean, the mind on s- some basic level is what the brain is doing, and if the brain stops doing that, it's, it's reasonable to expect that the functions of mind will stop. But consciousness is the fact that it's like something to be associated with that, with that information processing

Lewis Howes 24:38 Mm-hmm

Sam Harris 24:38 And that is still fundamentally mysterious. I mean, there's a, there's a lot that our brain is doing that seems unconscious, right? It s- and seems unavailable to consciousness i- in principle. I mean, so, like, and, and so ... and it's ... These unconscious proce- processes are delivering w- the contents of consciousness in each moment, right? So y- you and I are having a conversation. I can see you. I can hear you.

Lewis Howes 25:00 Right.

Sam Harris 25:01 I can ... You know, there, there are things that are stable, um, that I can inspect because they are, they're among the contents of consciousness, but how all of this stuff is showing up is unco- is, is, is being unconsciously mediated and really can't be inspected.

Lewis Howes 25:18 Right.

Sam Harris 25:18 So, you know, like, I'm ... I mean, the, the example I always use is, you know, 'cause I, I'm always talking when I have to use an example, but so, like, to some degree, you know, however imperfectly, I am managing to follow the rules of English grammar without knowing how I do that.

Lewis Howes 25:33 Sure.

Sam Harris 25:33 Right? And you're, you're able to effortlessly interpret-

Lewis Howes 25:36 Listen and understand, yeah

Sam Harris 25:36 ... Yes, and in fact, you, you don't even have a choice. If I say the word pigeon, right, you can understand it, I mean, pr- provided you're a, a native English speaker-

Lewis Howes 25:45 Right

Sam Harris 25:45 ... and that's in your vocabulary. You can't help but understand it. You can't ... It's like you can't say, "Well, whatever that next word is gonna be, I'm g- just gonna block the semantics of it."

Lewis Howes 25:54 [laughs] Right.

Sam Harris 25:54 No, the semantics just come in, right? Beca- and so you're, you're doing all of this ... Your brain is doing all of this unconsciously, and you can't, you can't get to a place where you s- are standing upstream of the, the, the parsing of, of the, of the, the sounds I'm making. I'm just making a bunch of small mouth noises.

Lewis Howes 26:13 [laughs]

Sam Harris 26:13 Right? And I mean, s- and you know the difference. When you're in the presence of someone who's speaking a language-

Lewis Howes 26:19 Right

Sam Harris 26:19 ... of which you know not a single word, right, you know, what- whatever that is, Thai, say, um, it just sounds like pure gibberish. And the, and, and, and the, the surprising thing there is that you, you ... It's very hard to even imagine that anyone can decode those sounds and extract meaning at all, right? It just sounds like what ... It's amazing that that's a language, right?

Lewis Howes 26:37 Right.

Sam Harris 26:38 Uh, and yet once you know the language, you can't help but decode it. So all of that's-

Lewis Howes 26:43 Mm

Sam Harris 26:43 ... unconscious, um, and, uh, and yet the fundamental mystery of our being and the most important thing in the universe, really ... I mean, the, uh ... I would argue the only important thing in the universe is the fact that the lights are on as, uh, in and as what we are here subjectively, w- which, which is consciousness. You know, if the lights were off, right, if it was all just ... If, if there was no distinction between biological systems and this table, right, you know, if there was nothing that it was like to be you, um, and there could never become something that it was like to be you or any other physical system, well, then there is no b- ... There's no important distinction between the wet stuff we have in our heads and rocks and, you know-

Lewis Howes 27:31 Right

Sam Harris 27:31 ... you know, the, the water in the ocean. I mean, it's just ... It's all just stuff that has ... Can, can have no interests. It can't, can't suffer. It can't e- experience happiness. It can't be deprived of happiness. It can't be creative. It can't ... So the, the good thing about this universe is consciousness, and so the, the ... and that's ... a- and the thing we can care about, uh ... You know, your, your, your life is as your, your consciousness is in each moment. And I mean, you, you ... All you have is your experience and your possible experiences. And, um, you know, the, uh ... And that's the core of our morality, too. It's like, uh, like, it, we, we are, we, we are in a position with one another where we can affect each other's states of wellbeing and our opportunities to, to experience further wellbeing in, in the future. And, and that matters. And, and our conversation around that is our conversation around morality and ethics and-

Lewis Howes 28:34 Mm-hmm

Sam Harris 28:34 ... and, you know, politics and-

Lewis Howes 28:35 Yeah

Sam Harris 28:35 ... you know. So.

Lewis Howes 28:37 How do we, how do we unlock our consciousness or expand it in a positive way?

Sam Harris 28:44 Well, is it ... Yeah.

Lewis Howes 28:44 Besides meditation, obviously, but what are some ... How can we think differently so we can unlock this consciousness for ourselves?

Sam Harris 28:51 Yeah, well, there are many levels at which to do that. I mean, it's, uh, there's, there is ... It's ... Meditation is ... There are many different kinds of meditation, but the, the kind that interests me most and, and which I most recommend is, um, it often go, goes by the name of mindfulness now.

Lewis Howes 29:06 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 29:06 I mean, mindfulness is very widespread. But there's, there's a sort of trivial versions of mindfulness, and there's the, the deeper version. And, and the deeper version is really to understand the mechanics of your own mental suffering-

Lewis Howes 29:19 Sure

Sam Harris 29:20 ... and put yourself in a position to, to cease to suffer unnecessarily, right? So you, you notice that, that you're lost in thought almost every moment of your life, and much of your thinking has this, this mediocre character of, of causing you to worry about the f- the future and, and regret the past-

Lewis Howes 29:39 Mm-hmm

Sam Harris 29:39 ... and, and just feel a, a, a baseline dis-ease with life, right? Whether, whether it is just, you know, what it was like for me to drive here in traffic and, like, oh, am I, am I gonna be late, you know?

Lewis Howes 29:53 Right.

Sam Harris 29:53 I was supposed to be here at 10:00. And, like, so all, like, like, so much of our life is the steady hum of that kind of, uh, thinking, right? And, uh, not to mention the, you know, the bigger concerns about, you know, disease and, you know, whether your child is sick. And, like, uh, we're, we're thinking, like, uh, we, we're plunged into thought in each moment, and we don't notice it.

Lewis Howes 30:16 Mm.

Sam Harris 30:16 And until you learn- To be mindful, you can't notice it. All you can ... I mean, you, you might have this abstract idea that, yeah, of course, I'm thinking a lot of the time, but, you know, so what? Or like, what do you, how, you know, what's the alternative, right? There is no alternative. You're just, each thought will arise and completely capture your attention, and then you are hostage to the, the emotional and behavioral imperatives of that thought, right? So, uh, and so, and, and it's necessary to, to, to some degree to be that way, and because we need, we need thought, and we o- we ... Thought is the way we, we organize our lives, and, and form plans, and, and, and understand what's happening, right? So like it's a-

Lewis Howes 30:58 Yeah

Sam Harris 30:59 ... almost everything that makes us human is born of our capacity for abstract thought and to, and planning, and goal formation, and all the rest. But it's possible to recognize thought as, uh, a stream of appearances in consciousness, and to recognize that consciousness is a, the k- the prior condition of their arising. And when you can do that, you can actually break the link between thought and psychological suffering. So like, so if you, if so the thought is a, an an- an anxiety-producing thought, right? You can notice this whole process where a thought arises, and you feel anxious. And that feeling of anxiety in your body, uh, uh, when once uninspected, begins to generate the, the motive for further thoughts along those lines.

Lewis Howes 31:51 Mm.

Sam Harris 31:51 So you're thinking about the thing that makes you anxious, and because you're anxious, you, you're finding the anxiety intolerable. You've got resistance to feeling this, this feeling, and you're thinking about, like, "How can I get out of this?" And like, "Oh, oh, o- clearly, I got, I've got a lot I've got to change here. Let me get a, you know ... I'm gonna start writing some things down on a checklist," you know. And you're, you're, you're thinking without knowing that you're thinking, and you're feeling the motive force of this, this emotion. But if you, once you can become mindful, which is, is, is, which is to just be aware of what's arising in, in consciousness without judgment, without reaction, without resistance, right? I mean, so, so to be able to notice anxiety as a, just a pattern of sensation in the body, right? And then when you can do that, you can see that f- first of all, it's not that bad, right?

Lewis Howes 32:40 Right.

Sam Harris 32:40 In fact, you-

Lewis Howes 32:41 You're not dying.

Sam Harris 32:42 Yeah, no. And, and under, under a different framing, it's a sensation that is, that is often pleasant, right? Like, the, the, the, the, the excitement you feel, or even the anxiety you feel before you get on a rollercoaster, right, if that's your thing, is something you're, you're willing to pay to do.

Lewis Howes 33:01 [laughs] You're excited, yeah.

Sam Harris 33:01 Right? Like, yeah, you want this thing. You want ... That's part of the experience.

Lewis Howes 33:04 Go skydiving, you feel alive.

Sam Harris 33:05 Yeah, whatever. Like, like, that's, that's the, you know, the, the, being able to ha- I mean, the thrill is a thrill because you have, you felt some of that, right?

Lewis Howes 33:13 Yeah.

Sam Harris 33:14 So, um, and, and that's why I say there are other levels at which you can, you can work with the contents of consciousness so as to cease to be unhappy. I mean, wh- and, and one is to change the frame around an experience like that.

Lewis Howes 33:27 Mm.

Sam Harris 33:27 So I mean, to recognize that anxiety, uh, you know, the anxiety you might feel before going out on stage in front of 1,000 people, just the raw sensation in your torso and in your face, I mean, just the, just the physiology of it.

Lewis Howes 33:40 Tense-ness, the, and ... Yeah.

Sam Harris 33:41 Yeah. That is importantly similar to something that can have a positive frame which you seek out, like excitement.

Lewis Howes 33:49 Mm.

Sam Harris 33:49 Right? Um, I mean, a much more extreme case of this is like, y- you can, when you think of what the physical sensations are when you're working out, you know, a- and, you know, working out as hard as you can work out-

Lewis Howes 34:02 Yeah

Sam Harris 34:02 ... and in the most satisfying way, the ex- precisely the workout you'll feel good for having done, the actual sensations are, can be extremely unpleasant.

Lewis Howes 34:12 Oh, yeah.

Sam Harris 34:13 And if, and if they just came upon you in a different context, you would call 911. You'd be absolutely terrified, right? Like, it just-

Lewis Howes 34:19 I'm sweating profusely.

Sam Harris 34:20 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 34:20 My muscles are ripping. Yeah.

Sam Harris 34:22 Yeah. So, so it's just, um, so f- the frame, the, the, the, the, the conceptual frame around experience-

Lewis Howes 34:28 Mm

Sam Harris 34:28 ... does a tremendous amount. Uh, but mindfulness is a more basic ability to notice this mechanism of becoming identified with thought, and, and resisting certain emotions and mood states, and being able to just unlock-

Lewis Howes 34:44 Mm

Sam Harris 34:44 ... from all of that and recognize that consciousness itself, uh, that which is simply aware of experience, is not actually changed by, by its contents. I mean, so, like, that which is aware of joy is the same thing as that which is aware of sadness, right? And on some level, it- it's not diminished by sadness or improved by joy, and you keep dropping back into that state. And I mean, paradoxically and, and happily, that state begins to have its own kind of qualitative character, which is, which is more toward the good side of things, I mean, is more joyful, and compassionate, and loving, and positive. And it, because, because the antithesis of all those states is what is happening, i- i- is being, is being kindled by our entanglement with thought-

Lewis Howes 35:37 Mm

Sam Harris 35:37 ... and reactivity. It's like, it's like the, it's the resistance to, you know, I feel the sensations of anxiety, say, because I was lost in thought about how, you know, f- you know, afraid of failure I am a, a moment ago. Uh, I c- can break that spell with mindfulness, and then notice that the, the physiology, which still ta- may take a few seconds to dissipate-

Lewis Howes 36:01 Yeah

Sam Harris 36:02 ... is fine, right? Like, it's just, it's fine to feel that way. It's like, it has no more meaning in that moment than a pain in the knee, or indigestion, or something which is, which you, which you completely can contextualize, and it, it has no implication for who you are as a person.

Lewis Howes 36:16 Right.

Sam Harris 36:17 Right? Like, I don't ... You know, you don't feel a pain in the knee and- abstract from that, those, you know, unpleasant sensations back upon yourself and think, "I'm such a fucking schmuck." Right? Like, like, like-

Lewis Howes 36:29 Right

Sam Harris 36:29 ... well, who am I? Like my, like how did I become this person? I, like, like it doesn't... But people with anxiety, sh- you know, if you, if you, if you've got stage fright, right, you're going out on stage and you feel nerves, the, the, the le- the potential for self-judgment, the potential to read into that mere peripheral display of sensation that you're this person who is, who's, you know, all, you know, didn't, didn't work out, right, you know, in the end. Um, you know, people fall into that hole again and again, right? And it's comp- it's completely... It's not the, it's not just sort of unnecessary. It's completely unnecessary.

Lewis Howes 37:06 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 37:06 And, you know, mindfulness is a tool w- that would allow you to-

Lewis Howes 37:09 Yeah

Sam Harris 37:09 ... discover that.

Lewis Howes 37:09 Yeah.

Sam Harris 37:10 You know?

Lewis Howes 37:10 If you could, uh, wave a magic wand or set the parameters for how you wanted to think each day, the thoughts that you actually came to your mind, and you could control it. I'm assuming you control them in a lot of your own ways-

Sam Harris 37:23 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 37:23 ... with your own strategies and techniques and awareness. But if you could just say, "I'm sick of trying to control it," or reframing things when they come up, and you could just say, "I wanna think these thoughts every day," what would you-

Sam Harris 37:35 Mm

Lewis Howes 37:35 ... wanna think? What type of thoughts would you wanna think, and what would you wanna eliminate?

Sam Harris 37:41 Yeah. Well, so f- first, more fundamentally, I'd, I'd want to recognize that, uh, the mind just, uh, the mind has no shame. It just thinks.

Lewis Howes 37:54 Just thinks.

Sam Harris 37:54 It, it just thinks.

Lewis Howes 37:55 Yeah.

Sam Harris 37:55 Right? So, like, the thoughts just keep coming, and the, you know, the goal from a meditative point of view, and this, uh, this is a analogy that's used in Tibetan Buddhism, is to get into, into a position where thoughts are like thieves entering an empty house, right?

Lewis Howes 38:10 Mm.

Sam Harris 38:10 So there's just, there's just no possible problem.

Lewis Howes 38:13 Can't steal anything.

Sam Harris 38:14 Right? Yeah. There's just nothing to steal.

Lewis Howes 38:15 That's interesting.

Sam Harris 38:16 Right? So that, so to, to truly be indifferent to a good th- between a good thought and a bad thought-

Lewis Howes 38:23 Wow

Sam Harris 38:23 ... that's, that's the real superpower.

Lewis Howes 38:25 That is cool.

Sam Harris 38:26 So, so that's, so that's, that's the k- the more fundamental level of, of addressing the problem. But it's also true that you can skillfully kinda curate the contents of your, your thinking and think better thoughts deliberately. And you can think more creative thoughts. You can think more compassionate thoughts, ethical thoughts. Um, and yeah, I mean, it's, um... I'm interested in, in many, many things. I wanna know, know more about many, many things.

Lewis Howes 38:53 Yeah.

Sam Harris 38:53 I want to be, uh, you know, right more often than I'm wrong. I mean, so th- and all of that's happening at the level of, of the, the, the conversation you're having with yourself and other people, and wi- and with good books. And, and so-

Lewis Howes 39:07 Yeah

Sam Harris 39:08 ... um, yeah, I mean, I think, uh, I mean, there are philosophies like, you know, uh, you know, the Western philosophy of, of Stoicism. You know, like the meditations of Marcus Aurelius. Uh, there, there, there's so many good thoughts.

Lewis Howes 39:24 Mm.

Sam Harris 39:24 You know, the, if you, if you were looking for a script that would generate a, um, a reliable baseline of, of psychological wellbeing and, and ethical conduct, you know, that's the, certainly part of the script. I mean, to be able to think, um... And again, it comes back down to reframing a lot. So, like, any, if, you know, again, to make it trivial, you, you, you're driving in traffic and, you know, someone cuts you off, right? The natural state, sort of the, the road rage state, is to, just to be irate, you know, and, uh, to essentially hate that person.

Lewis Howes 39:58 Right

Sam Harris 39:59 ... the, the, the person whose face you can't even see.

Lewis Howes 40:00 [laughs]

Sam Harris 40:01 I mean, you can't even tell whether the person's 90 years old or 20 years old.

Lewis Howes 40:04 Right.

Sam Harris 40:04 Right? And that should matter to you, right? Like, if the, the, you should have a different feeling about a 90-year-old than a 20-year-old in that moment, given, uh, the implications. Um, but, so, uh, you know, like the, a, a Stoical kind of reframing of that would be, you, you, you, to, is to recognize you don't know what is going on in this person's life.

Lewis Howes 40:27 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 40:27 Right? And i- and nine times out of 10, if you could know it, you would feel compassion-

Lewis Howes 40:33 Right

Sam Harris 40:33 ... for what's going on there, you know? And you'd feel gratitude that you're not suffering the same problem. I mean, the o-

Lewis Howes 40:39 Yeah

Sam Harris 40:39 ... the one reframe that I use all the time now is that whenever something bad is happening or it's happening to something, you know, quote, bad, something that, that is causing me stress is happening, um, I think of all of the worst things that are not happening, and I just think of how much I would pay, you know, literally pay to get back to the situa- precisely the circumstance I'm now in, that I'm now stressing about.

Lewis Howes 41:06 If you have worse conditions.

Sam Harris 41:06 Right, or complaining about. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 41:08 Yeah.

Sam Harris 41:08 Right. So, like, just so you had-

Lewis Howes 41:09 You had no legs or if you-

Sam Harris 41:10 Exactly

Lewis Howes 41:10 ... you were sick, if you're in the hospital

Sam Harris 41:11 ... like you, you, you, if you find out, you know, you know, I did not find out today that I have a brain tumor, right? So whatever I was stressing about today, if I had, if I got the call that I, you know, I have a brain tumor, right, how much would I pay to get back into precisely-

Lewis Howes 41:26 [laughs]

Sam Harris 41:26 ... the situation where I was just stressing about, you know, whatever it was-

Lewis Howes 41:29 Right

Sam Harris 41:29 ... on my schedule or, you know-

Lewis Howes 41:30 Yeah

Sam Harris 41:31 ... you know, some hassle. Um, it's just, uh, it's a non i- everything is a non-issue until it's a real issue. And then so y- you, when you take something that's a real issue, like a brain tumor, then you have ha- I m- th- then the, then the question is, how much of the day are you going to spend having a brain tumor, right? I mean, b- being busy having a brain tumor.

Lewis Howes 41:55 Suffering about the brain tumor.

Sam Harris 41:56 Exactly.

Lewis Howes 41:57 Yeah.

Sam Harris 41:57 And suffering about your uncertainty about the future, right? So y- the, there's a time course to all of this.

Lewis Howes 42:02 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 42:02 So, you know, like, a- at each point, and this is where, you know, worry i- is almost always pointless because, like, in each moment, there's either something you can do to solve a problem or there isn't, right?

Lewis Howes 42:15 Mm-hmm.

Sam Harris 42:15 Now, if there is something to do, well, then, just do that thing, right? Do, solve the problem, right? If there isn't There's actually nothing to worry about. Like, like, it ... The worry adds nothing to that situation, right? So you're ... So, you know, if you have a brain tumor, yes, you need to go from one doctor to pr- and probably to a second doctor for a second opinion, and you, you find the surgeon you, you want. It, it ... And there's a whole process. You're going to get an MRI. You know, all of it. You're, you're, you're, you're having to deal with a lot of, yes, objectively stressful things. But, I mean, big picture, we're all in this situation. I mean, life itself is a brain tumor. I mean, we're all gonna die

Lewis Howes 42:53 We're all gonna die.

Sam Harris 42:54 We're all, we're all g- we're all going to go on this ... We're gonna get the full tour. Now, I mean, for some of us, it, it, you know, some of us will be very lucky, and it will be very orderly and free of pain, and we'll be surrounded by everyone we love

Lewis Howes 43:06 Do it well. We're 100 years old.

Sam Harris 43:07 Yeah. It's just gonna go perfectly, and for some people, it'll be chaotic and terrifying and short or long. I mean, so i- i- like, it's every permutation, and I'm not, uh, denying that it's rational to have preferences there, right? I mean, like, you know, you, you do want the orderly, loving-

Lewis Howes 43:26 Right

Sam Harris 43:26 ... uh, you know, uh, you know, uh, and not untimely unraveling of it all, um, uh, rather than the opposite. But it's whatever is happening, you have this moment, and then your thinking. And, and, and, and you're, and you're thinking about the future, and you're thinking about the fa- the past is the mechanism by which you will truly suffer-

Lewis Howes 43:52 Mm

Sam Harris 43:52 ... at each moment. Because it is, in fact, true to say that even physical pain is something around which you can develop an impressive ability to be equanimous, right? And we, and we also have, you know, we have, you know, for extreme pain, we have painkillers. I mean, like happily-

Lewis Howes 44:10 Right

Sam Harris 44:10 ... we're living, we're not living in, in, you know, 1700-

Lewis Howes 44:13 Right

Sam Harris 44:13 ... where, you know, someone is just kinda sawing off your limb-

Lewis Howes 44:16 Sawing

Sam Harris 44:16 ... you know, you know, uh, um, after the leeches didn't work.

Lewis Howes 44:19 [laughs]

Sam Harris 44:21 Uh, so, um, s- you know, 99% of our suffering around everything, you know, even objectively horrible things like brain tumors, is our thought about past and future, is the regret, and, uh, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's the, the story we're telling ourself.