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Secret Service Agent: REMOVE PEOPLE From Your Life if They Have THESE RED FLAGS! Evy Poumpouras

Today, Lewis welcomes back Evy Poumpouras, a former Secret Service agent and author of "Becoming Bulletproof."

Evy PoumpourasguestLewis Howeshost

Jul 1, 202457mWatch on YouTube

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CHAPTERS

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Chapter summaries

Why the Circle Around You Matters
Lewis Howes asks Evy Poumpouras for the three biggest skills the Secret Service taught her. The first is that your circle matters: she describes acting as the bouncer at the door, treating drama as a red flag, and how the Service's rigorous vetting built a grounded, steady environment.
- •Think of yourself as the bouncer who decides who comes in, how long they stay, and who gets thrown out
- •A person with a lot of drama is a red flag because their drama becomes yours
- •Watch behavior rather than what people say about disliking conflict
- •The Service vetted candidates intensely, down to sending an agent to her college in Rome
- •Colleagues met world events with calm problem-solving and no chaos
Good Stress vs. Chronic Stress
Evy explains that most people try to design lives where nothing goes wrong, while a certain level of stress builds resilience. She distinguishes productive stress from chronic stress in an unhealthy relationship, and describes how NYPD and Secret Service training raised stress gradually.
- •Most people design their lives so nothing goes wrong, then freak out when it does
- •Chosen discomfort, like doing an interview she dislikes, builds resilience
- •Chronic stress from an unhealthy relationship erodes self-esteem and psyche
- •Training raised stress levels incrementally from day one to day 60
- •About 300 of 1,500 NYPD recruits quit in the first month
Instrumental vs. Identity: Goal-Focused Mindset
Asked for the second skill, Evy introduces two sense-making mindsets: identity, which is self-focused and emotional, and instrumental, which is mission- and goal-focused. She uses feedback, her first day on the President's detail, and her polygraph interviews with candidates to show why the best performers are instrumental.
- •Identity is self-focused and emotional; instrumental is mission- and goal-focused
- •Feedback on work is heard as a fix-it task by an instrumental person and as a personal attack by an identity person
- •Candidates who wanted to serve their country passed, while those wanting to test themselves tended to quit when it got hard
- •People can shift between the two and change their habit if they want to
- •Lewis compares it to being benched on a team for a bad attitude
Coachability and Humility
Evy says Navy SEALs, Secret Service agents and athletes share coachability, because they focus on the collective goal. She names humility as the third skill, taught by being told you are not that special, and the Service's invasive vetting looked for people who came to serve.
- •Coachability is the thread tying SEALs, agents and athletes together
- •Hiring was invasive, and it screened for people who wanted to serve rather than imitate TV shows
- •Humility means putting other things ahead of yourself
- •In a world telling everyone they're special, not everyone else can be
Raising a Resilient, Humble Child
Lewis asks how to raise a confident child who is also humble. Evy describes letting her 18-month-old daughter work through meltdowns and struggles, teaching her Greek, planning jujitsu, avoiding participation trophies, and balancing that with comfort and hugs.
- •She resists rescuing her daughter unless she is hurt, so she learns to process emotions
- •She speaks Greek to her daughter while her husband speaks English
- •She wants her daughter to learn to fail well and ask how to do better
- •She will always give a hug when needed, calling it a balance with no perfect formula
- •A parent owes a child the ability to handle herself when parents are gone
The Lion, T-Rex, Mouse and Monkey Archetypes
Lewis cites a study on four personality types and asks how to read someone's personality. Evy offers the animal archetypes she was trained in: Lion, T-Rex, Mouse and Monkey, noting we move between them and that each has a good and bad version.
- •Lion wants control and sets the agenda; T-Rex is frank and fights; Mouse suppresses and can be avoidant; Monkey is warm and social
- •People shift archetypes depending on context, such as Lion at work and Mouse in an unhealthy relationship
- •Good T-Rex competes directly, while bad T-Rex is dogmatic, sarcastic and punitive
- •Bad Lion is a bully, bad Mouse is weak and afraid to speak, and bad Monkey is trying too hard to sell
- •Evy sees Lewis as a good Lion
Reading People by Staying Quiet
Asked how to decipher someone's personality on first meeting, Evy says to shut up and give people space to reveal themselves. She describes the 80/20 listening rule, what to do when both people are reserved, and why two Mice never decide on dinner.
- •Her polygraph instructor said to stop talking to read people
- •Use an 80/20 split where the other person speaks 80% of the time
- •Pick up on mannerisms and language while they talk
- •If both people defer, one needs to take the Lion role and decide
- •Evy sees herself as more T-Rex and works on it
Narcissism, Sociopathy and Psychopathy: What the Labels Mean
Lewis asks how to tell whether someone is a narcissist, sociopath or psychopath. Evy, who holds a master's in forensic psychology, says the terms are overused and the true criteria include lack of empathy and remorse. She cites research suggesting 1 in 25 people meet them and discusses rising narcissism in an identity-focused culture.
- •Disagreeing with you does not make someone a narcissist
- •Lack of empathy and remorse are core criteria, and antisocial disorder is not about disliking socializing
- •Research she saw suggested 1 in 25 people fit this tendency
- •She thinks narcissism is rising in the US due to an identity culture and social media
- •Her students pull out phones on breaks, and lack of connection raises the risk of harming others
Self-Focus, Dwelling and the Limits of Therapy
Evy lists language red flags such as repeated use of 'I', which can signal self-focus or depression. She argues that constantly retelling problems, including in therapy, feeds the mind negativity, and Lewis describes balancing expression with moving forward.
- •Repeated use of I in language can signal narcissism or depression
- •Dwelling on and re-analyzing problems relives the harm
- •Therapy is valuable if you know your purpose and have a doctor who says you're done
- •Lewis says suppressing emotions built pressure, but constantly reliving stories wouldn't help either
- •Retelling bad events is likened to eating McDonald's daily
Surviving September 11th and Appreciating Life
Evy recounts being at the World Trade Center on September 11th, where her Secret Service office was located, and believing she would die as the tower collapsed. She says she cannot heal from it but has accepted it, and it taught her to appreciate life and let go.
- •She was there from the first plane through both collapses and lost colleagues and friends
- •She hunkered down on the street, thought she would die, and began to pray
- •The experience gave her appreciation for life and a pause before reacting to petty things
- •She attends the World Trade Center Health Monitoring Program screening every year
- •She does not want to go back to who she was before and says she is okay if her time comes
Not Letting One Day Define You, and Service as Therapy
Evy and Lewis discuss therapy as coaching and not staying stuck in the past. Evy says 9/11 was one day and shouldn't define her life. The Secret Service required group therapy, but what worked for her was volunteering at Ground Zero, and Lewis says service feels therapeutic.
- •Lewis calls therapy coaching, focused on preparing for future challenges
- •Evy asks whether a past event has become your identity
- •She cites a study that 70% of people have experienced trauma or tragedy
- •Group storytelling two days after 9/11 didn't work for her
- •Volunteering at Ground Zero was her therapy, and therapy looks different for different people
Selling Harm to Ourselves: Justification and the Bank Theft Case
Evy says it's naive to think people won't cause harm, and that those who do usually justify it to themselves. She describes a bank employee who stole money because it wasn't locked up, and Lewis shares a similar story of an employee who took a $100 bill.
- •You can't live in la-la land: some people will cause harm
- •Offenders she interviewed validated their actions with reasons
- •A bank employee justified stealing by saying that if the money mattered, they'd have locked it up
- •We all sell our own harmful choices to ourselves in varying degrees
- •Lewis recounts an employee who took a $100 bill and was fired that day
Label the Behavior, Not the Person
Returning to red flags, Evy explains that they are behavior signals, and that labeling behavior rather than the person gives a clearer view. Emotional ties muddy our judgment, which is why advice about other people's situations comes easily and why we make bad decisions about those close to us.
- •Red flags are the behavior signals people give you
- •Ask what behavior you are seeing in this moment
- •Labeling a person is muddy because of emotional ties
- •It's easier to advise a stranger's situation because you only hear the behavior
- •Labeling behavior leads to better choices

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