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Secret Service Agent: REMOVE PEOPLE From Your Life if They Have THESE RED FLAGS! Evy Poumpouras

Today, Lewis welcomes back Evy Poumpouras, a former Secret Service agent and author of "Becoming Bulletproof."

Evy PoumpourasguestLewis Howeshost

Jul 1, 202457mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

60 min read · 11,634 words

0:00 – 2:19
Intro
1. EPEvy Poumpouras
  It's naïve of, of us to think that people will not cause you harm, because there are some people that will. I know this as a former criminal investigator. You can't live in la-la land. That's reality. But if I know this and I understand this, I'm gonna move through the world in the best way I can.
2. LHLewis Howes
  Former Secret Service agent.
3. SPSpeaker
  Journalist, professor, interrogator. The author of Becoming Bulletproof.
4. LHLewis Howes
  Please welcome Evy Poumpouras.
5. EPEvy Poumpouras
  [cheering] The circle of people around you matter. I look at it like this, like, you're the bouncer at the door, and you decide who comes in and how long they stay, and then you decide who you need to throw out. If you have someone who has a lot of drama in their life-
6. LHLewis Howes
  Mm
7. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... that's a massive red flag, because their drama is going to become your drama.
8. LHLewis Howes
  Right. How can you really tell if someone is a narcissist, a sociopath, or a psychopath?
9. EPEvy Poumpouras
  When we look at true narcissism, there's criteria you have to meet. Some of the research that I had looked at said 1 out of 25 people will be one of these.
10. LHLewis Howes
  Really?
11. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Yeah.
12. LHLewis Howes
  1 out of 25.
13. EPEvy Poumpouras
  The red flags are the behavior signals that people give you.
14. LHLewis Howes
  Yes.
15. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Don't label the person, label the behavior.
16. LHLewis Howes
  Mm. That's interesting.
17. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I was through September 11th. I was in the World Trade Center. I survived. I was on-
18. LHLewis Howes
  You were there during it?
19. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I was. I had colleagues who died, friends who died. I'll tell you this, I can't heal from that. I don't know how to heal from something like that.
20. LHLewis Howes
  Interesting.
21. EPEvy Poumpouras
  But that was truly a moment where I thought, I was like, "I'm gonna die."
22. LHLewis Howes
  Really?
23. EPEvy Poumpouras
  You want to know where the best performers live, they're instrumental.
24. LHLewis Howes
  Right.
25. EPEvy Poumpouras
  My first day on the president's detail, I walk in, I sit down. It's my first day at the White House. He sits down and he says...
26. LHLewis Howes
  Welcome back, everyone, to School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest. We have the inspiring Evy Poumpouras back in the house for the third time on the show. I'm so excited because your book, Becoming Bulletproof: Life Lessons from a Secret Service Agent, has helped a lot of people understand the psychology of humanity and human beings in front of them, from family members to friends to relationships to potential work environments. You were a Secret Service agent for 13 years, and you saw a lot. You worked with a lot of the top politicians. You saw a lot. You, uh, interviewed and investigated a lot of different individuals, different personality types. And I'm curious, what do you think are the three biggest skills that being a Secret Service agent gave you, that you learned
2:19 – 4:55
The Importance of Your Inner Circle
1. LHLewis Howes
  from the service? Three biggest skills that you wish other individuals had those skills as well.
2. EPEvy Poumpouras
  You know, I'll tell you the, the one big one that stands out. It taught me that the circle of people around you matter.
3. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
4. EPEvy Poumpouras
  And you need to be very careful about who's in your circle. I look at it like this, like, you're the bouncer at the door, right? And you decide who comes in and how long they stay, and then you decide who you need to throw out.
5. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm. That's great.
6. EPEvy Poumpouras
  So in the Service, I think what was done there is like they did such a, a great job in the hiring process. I mean, they spent months and months interviewing you, investigating you, talking to your neighbors, figuring out who you are, if you're gonna fit into the culture, if you're a person of integrity. I went... I used to go to college overseas, and one of the colleges I went to was in Italy. I lived in Rome. I did a semester abroad, six months.
7. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
8. EPEvy Poumpouras
  They sent an agent to my college-
9. LHLewis Howes
  Come on
10. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... in Rome, in Rome, to interview my professor to find out what kind of student I was.
11. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
12. EPEvy Poumpouras
  That's the level of, like, assessment that they do. So when they do that, you, they're plucking people out and selecting and put- putting them in this group, and then you get put in there, I get put in there. And so now you're around this caliber of people. And you have to look at your circle. Who's it, who's around me? It's not about, this isn't about niceness or kindness. I'm not saying that-
13. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm
14. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... those things don't matter. They do. You want people who treat you well and with respect. But you also have to look at, what are these people doing to me? So for example, if you have someone who has a lot of drama in their life-
15. LHLewis Howes
  Mm
16. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... that's something, that's a massive red flag, because their drama is going to become your drama.
17. LHLewis Howes
  Right.
18. EPEvy Poumpouras
  So you may say, "But I don't engage in this stuff. I don't do this stuff." But what you don't realize is their life and their choices bleed into yours. If there's someone in your life that has a lot of chaos or conflict, that stuff is gonna bleed into you. And they'll tell you, "Oh, I, I don't like conflict. I don't like drama." But then you will always see that it's this repetitive thing. And what happens is-
19. LHLewis Howes
  Mm
20. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... although they may say that, you can get addicted to that. It gives you your adrenaline shot, it gives you your cortisol shots. It's a, it's a booster. And so s- the same people that say, "I don't like it," don't listen.
21. LHLewis Howes
  Watch their behavior.
22. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Look.
23. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah, yeah. [laughs]
24. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Look. People will show you.
25. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
26. EPEvy Poumpouras
  And you will see. So that's what I would focus on.
27. LHLewis Howes
  Okay.
28. EPEvy Poumpouras
  And that's the one thing the Service was excellent at showing me. They didn't... You know what was interesting?
4:55 – 7:22
Building Resilience
1. EPEvy Poumpouras
  They didn't tell us this. I just intuitively learned this. So I was steady because I was around other very steady people.
2. LHLewis Howes
  Yes.
3. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I was grounded because the world around me was grounded. I mean, things would happen, even in the White House. Uh, every day there was some kind of a serious event in the world, something tragic, a tragedy. So not just us, but also the core element of the White House, the staff, you would see people just become grounded.
4. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
5. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Let's sit down. What's going on in the world? What just happened? Who got bombed? Who got attacked? What shooting happened? And you'd see this kind of synergy of people moving together to figure out what are the next steps, what's the solution. No chaos.
6. LHLewis Howes
  Really?
7. EPEvy Poumpouras
  No drama. No. I'm-
8. LHLewis Howes
  No fight or flight responses from people, like-
9. EPEvy Poumpouras
  No
10. LHLewis Howes
  ... "We need to do something now," no reaction.
11. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I've nev- I've never seen that.
12. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
13. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I've never seen that. So it's like a, a really great... I don't want to say think tank, but it was just a place that you could go.
14. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
15. EPEvy Poumpouras
  And they were expecting it. But you were also in a space where it was understood things are going to go wrong, and it is okay.
16. LHLewis Howes
  Interesting
17. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Where most people are not okay with that. Most people design their lives so that nothing goes wrong
18. LHLewis Howes
  They try to control their lives so things don't go wrong, and when they go wrong, they freak out and they breakdown
19. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Yes, because you're thinking, "Well, why is this happening? Why is that happening?" Rather than, "This stuff will happen."
20. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm
21. EPEvy Poumpouras
  It is ... It, it will be going on. Now I can mitigate it, right?
22. LHLewis Howes
  Yes
23. EPEvy Poumpouras
  But that stuff is going to come
24. LHLewis Howes
  That's what I like about, you know, Navy Seals, UFC fighters, like they're training for worst case scenarios. They're kind of putting themselves in uncomfortable situations physically, mentally, emotionally, consistently, so that they know how to handle challenges. And I think a lot of people just don't set themselves up for challenging times. They try to have comfortable lives, and therefore, when there is an uncomfortable situation, they're on breakdown
25. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Yeah, 'cause you think stress is bad. That's what everybody tells you, "Relax. Go get a massage. Stress is bad. Da, da, da." No. A certain level of stress is good. Here's the difference. Stress that is like, let's say you're ... We're doing this interview and we're uncomfortable, or o- I'm uncomfortable. I come in and I'm comfortable. I don't like interviews. I don't like doing them. Me coming in, making myself sit down, doing the interview and overcoming that, that is good stress. That builds resilience. The stress that is not good is chronic stress. So chronic stress is, I have a relationship with someone.
7:22 – 9:50
The Effects of Chronic Stress on Mental Health
1. EPEvy Poumpouras
  They are not healthy, or the relationship is not healthy, so every day I'm dealing with chronic stress. Am I gonna get yelled at? Is this person gonna do this to me?
2. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah
3. EPEvy Poumpouras
  That is not good for you, and that causes a de- a deterioration-
4. LHLewis Howes
  Mm
5. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... in your self-esteem and your psyche and all these different things
6. LHLewis Howes
  Right
7. EPEvy Poumpouras
  That's the difference. And even in training, the way they worked training, with all of the, the type of training, the first day they introduce stress levels to you, and then incrementally they increase the dosage
8. LHLewis Howes
  Really?
9. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Oh, yes. Oh-
10. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs]
11. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... the stress you endure day one is very different than the stress they're putting on you day 60
12. LHLewis Howes
  Why is that?
13. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Because they need to help you gradually get there. It's not to say that you're not gonna lose people in the beginning. In fact, I started with the NYPD first. I went in it as a recruit, and my class was 1,500 recruits in the NYPD. The first month, I think ballpark 300 people quit. 300 people quit, and this is NYPD. I actually thought it was quite tough. Um, and they were putting stress on you. They're, they're making you feel not welcomed. You're lucky to be here. And it was just this chron ... It was a, a stressor to see can you handle it-
14. LHLewis Howes
  Mm
15. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... and they did want people who couldn't, or who couldn't understand that, you know, this isn't just about you. And they would say to us, "If you can't handle the stress in here, how are you going to handle the stress out on the street?" And they would say, "Where people hate you." Because so many people hate police. It's like people hate you. They're in your face. They wanna cause you harm, so if you can't handle that out there, you know, th- th- then you can't be doing this
16. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah. Interesting. Okay. So your circle matters is number one. What was the second thing that the service taught you that you wish everyone understood?
17. EPEvy Poumpouras
  So they taught me to be something that's called instrumental. Instrumental is ... Let's l- let's look at it this way. There's two motivational mindsets, actually. It's called sense making. And the research shows one mindset is identity, one mindset is instrumental. An identity person is very self-focused. Um, now we move through these, by the way, but when I'm identity, I'm using the word I a lot. I this, I feel this way. I'm in an emotional space. I'm very egocentric-
18. LHLewis Howes
  Yes
19. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... so I'm looking at the world as how it affects me. I'm not looking really for solutions or moving forward. I'm really just looking to talk about me, maybe sometimes to talk about my problems, to have somebody comfort me. It's a very emotional state
9:50 – 12:17
Being Instrumental in Service-based Work
1. EPEvy Poumpouras
  of being. When you're there, you're not being very productive.
2. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm
3. EPEvy Poumpouras
  We all visit identity land from time to time. I'm not saying we don't.
4. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm
5. EPEvy Poumpouras
  But you're stuck. Instrumental is I'm mission-focused. I'm goal-focused. I have a goal. This is what my goal is, and I'm looking how to get to that place. So if I get feedback on something, right, I'm not gonna take it personally. So if I'm working on a project and the project manager says to me, "Evy, this proposal you put together, I didn't like it. Fix it."
6. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm
7. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Right? If I'm instrumental, I will hear, he didn't like what I put together. I'm going to fix it because he wants me to make it better. If I my ... If I am identity, I'm gonna hear he doesn't like me
8. LHLewis Howes
  You'll take it personally
9. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Those are two different things.
10. LHLewis Howes
  [clears throat]
11. EPEvy Poumpouras
  So in the service we were very instrumental. Nobody wants to hear your problems. Nobody cares. Get it done. Nobody cares why this went wrong, how it went wrong. It's fix it. Just get to the solution. So you're very ... You're in a state of moving forward. You're in a state of making progress, which was very important because if you don't think like that, l- um, lives are on the line
12. LHLewis Howes
  Well, I mean, if someone's thinking, "Well, but what if I'm working really hard and someone just keeps giving me feedback that they don't see what I'm up to, or they don't appreciate the value I'm creating, or they're just constantly it feels like they're nitpicking at me as opposed to just seeing the value I bring." How does someone overcome that identity based sense making and not make it a personal, and just focus on being instrumental and service-based?
13. EPEvy Poumpouras
  If the feedback you are getting is accurate and correct-
14. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm
15. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... and true, then you understand they're giving it to me because I have work to do
16. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah
17. EPEvy Poumpouras
  If it's like you're hurting my feelings-
18. LHLewis Howes
  Right
19. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... then you're identity, and that's fine. It just depends where you wanna live.
20. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
21. EPEvy Poumpouras
  So if you wanna know where the best performers live, they're instrumental
22. LHLewis Howes
  Right
23. EPEvy Poumpouras
  My first day on the President's detail, my supervisor, when I walked in, now I'm a seven, eight years on already. I'm senior. I walk in, I sit down. It's my first day at the White House, getting ready to start on the President's detail. He sits down and he says, "There's the door." He's like, "Anybody here not wanna be here? Anybody confused as to why they don't wanna be here? There's the, there's the door." You h- you can walk through it anytime
24. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah
25. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Anybody?
26. LHLewis Howes
  No one's forced to be here.
27. EPEvy Poumpouras
  No one's forced to be here. No? No? Okay. Good. Let's get started.
28. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
29. EPEvy Poumpouras
  But that's why it was a machine that worked, and that way we
12:17 – 14:51
Being Goal-Driven vs Emotion-Driven
1. EPEvy Poumpouras
  were able to problem solve.
2. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
3. EPEvy Poumpouras
  And nobody's sitting there... Also, you're not putting you ahead of the mission, the goal. My feelings, how I feel. I'm not saying feelings are, are a bad thing, but you also have to know when you're being driven by pure emotion or mostly emotion, and when you're being goal-driven. If you have a mission or a focus or a project or whatever you're doing, and you're getting feedback, and you have to have an honest conversation with yourself. Is there truth to what I'm being told? If there is, then this person is helping me-
4. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm
5. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... trying to ma- trying-
6. LHLewis Howes
  Or they-
7. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... to make it better
8. LHLewis Howes
  ... or they're focusing on the goal and the mission, not on-
9. EPEvy Poumpouras
  You
10. LHLewis Howes
  ... y- on you.
11. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Yes.
12. LHLewis Howes
  And they want you to shift what you're doing to accomplish the goal or the mission.
13. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Yes.
14. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah.
15. EPEvy Poumpouras
  And do you believe in what you're doing? I did.
16. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah, yeah.
17. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I used to do the hiring process, and, uh, when I would interview somebody, one of the questions I would ask... When I say hiring process, I was a polygraph examiner.
18. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
19. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Let me caveat that. So to be an agent [laughs] you have to take a polygraph and pass it. So I would have to polygraph people, and I did the, the northeastern region area. And so when candidates would come in, I would ask them, "Why do you wanna be a special agent?" And I typically got two types of answers. One answer was, "I wanna see what I'm made of."
20. LHLewis Howes
  Hmm.
21. EPEvy Poumpouras
  "I wanna challenge myself. You know, this is like the next level in my life. I wanna see if I can do this." Okay. The other answer I would typically get was, "I wanna serve my country."
22. LHLewis Howes
  Hmm.
23. EPEvy Poumpouras
  "I wanna be part of a team. I wanna help. I wanna, I wanna do good in the world." Who do you think passed the process?
24. LHLewis Howes
  The second one.
25. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Yes. Because the first guy was in it for himself.
26. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
27. EPEvy Poumpouras
  So the moment things got hard, "I'm out." He would give up. It was all about him, or her. The second guy was there because they believed in something greater than themselves.
28. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
29. EPEvy Poumpouras
  They were out for a bigger purpose.
30. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah.
14:51 – 17:10
Shifting from self-focus to service-focus
1. EPEvy Poumpouras
  went in, I was super young. It was like 19, 20, 21. Like, I went right out of college. I was just like... I wasn't thinking clearly.
2. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
3. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I, so I was a bit more identity, and we all are when we're younger.
4. LHLewis Howes
  Uh-huh.
5. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Right? Me, me, me, me, me.
6. LHLewis Howes
  Yes.
7. EPEvy Poumpouras
  So and you move between these two phases also, 'cause there's moments in life where you might have, be going through something and you feel very identity. Or you may have a point where you're like, "You know, this person's not trilly- treating me well."
8. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
9. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Or, "I'm going through this," and we may feel down on ourselves. That's okay. Recognize you're in identity right now. I need to live here for a bit, but then I need to move out.
10. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
11. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I mean, my husband does it to me. He's like, "Somebody's in identity a little longer than they should be, huh?"
12. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs]
13. EPEvy Poumpouras
  [laughs] That's okay.
14. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah, yeah.
15. EPEvy Poumpouras
  But you may also see that you may have a habit where one of them is much more pr- you know, prevalent-
16. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm
17. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... in your life.
18. LHLewis Howes
  Yes.
19. EPEvy Poumpouras
  It's a being aware of it and acknowledging it, but also wanting to change it.
20. LHLewis Howes
  Interesting.
21. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Some people don't wanna change it.
22. LHLewis Howes
  They don't want to.
23. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Some people like the narrative of I just want it to be about me. That's okay. It's just very limiting for you. You're gonna be very frustrated in life. And you're gonna hit a lot of walls, and you know what? You're gonna feel very bad about yourself.
24. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
25. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Because if you're internalizing everything that's being said to you and done to you as a, an attack on you, or a negative on you-
26. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm
27. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... that also tells you I have a habit of thinking that the world doesn't appreciate me-
28. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm
29. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... doesn't see me, doesn't value me.
30. LHLewis Howes
  They're against me or whatever, yeah.
17:10 – 19:39
Coachability and Humility in the Secret Service
1. EPEvy Poumpouras
  the thread that kind of ties the Navy SEALs, Secret Service agents, and even athletes together? We're all coachable.
2. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
3. EPEvy Poumpouras
  We're... Because we've been trained to focus on the outcome, the team.
4. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
5. EPEvy Poumpouras
  What's the collective goal? And so w- we are all willing to listen so that I can perform better and do better so that the overall team performs better.
6. LHLewis Howes
  Yes.
7. EPEvy Poumpouras
  We are much more coachable, and you'll see this inherently. It w- it's a massive trait among s- certain groups than others.
8. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah. Coachability is, is huge. And I'm assuming you couldn't be in the Secret Service without being coachable.
9. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I mean, the, the, the hiring process was massively, like, invasive. If you-
10. LHLewis Howes
  I'm sure
11. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... don't want anybody in your business, not the job for you.
12. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs]
13. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I mean, they show up to your house. They show up to your school. They show up, they show up everywhere. I think people typically that come in wanna serve, and you can see who that is.
14. LHLewis Howes
  Mm. That's pretty neat.
15. EPEvy Poumpouras
  And that, and that shows, but you also wanna make sure that when people come in That they're coming in for the bigger purpose, and it's not for you because you watched CSI or what-
16. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs] Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah
17. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... SVU, no offense to those shows, great shows, or-
18. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah, yeah
19. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... some FBI show and you're like, "Yeah, I wanna-"
20. LHLewis Howes
  SWAT. Yeah, yeah
21. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... "I wanna be w- I wanna be that guy. I just wanna shoot everything up." And it's like, "No, no thank. We'll call you."
22. LHLewis Howes
  Right, right, right.
23. EPEvy Poumpouras
  "No thank you."
24. LHLewis Howes
  That's interesting. And what was the third skill that you learned that you wish everyone else in the world could-
25. EPEvy Poumpouras
  It's humility.
26. LHLewis Howes
  Humility. Why humility in the Secret Service?
27. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Because you're taught to put other things ahead of yourself. You're taught that you're not that special.
28. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
29. EPEvy Poumpouras
  And I think in a world where everybody's told, "You're special, you're special," so if that's true, then if I'm special, then everybody else isn't.
30. LHLewis Howes
  Mm. Interesting. You know, as a, as a mom, how do you raise, you know, a child and giving them confidence and courage to go after their dreams and their talents and actualize their potential, while also coaching someone to be humble? How do you do that?
19:39 – 22:06
Teaching Children to Process Emotions
1. EPEvy Poumpouras
  No, she-
2. LHLewis Howes
  You don't give her candy or give her what she wants 'cause she's throwing a fit.
3. EPEvy Poumpouras
  No. No.
4. LHLewis Howes
  That's the hardest thing for a mom probably to-
5. EPEvy Poumpouras
  No
6. LHLewis Howes
  ... to do.
7. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I won't. I will let her... Well, I also want her to learn how to process her emotions. So if she's having a meltdown, let her have it so she can work through it on her own. If I save her for, from it, or if I give her something to stop it, she's not learned to process it.
8. LHLewis Howes
  Mm. Self-soothe. Yeah.
9. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Yes. I also, like, let's say she comes here and she's trying to grab something, and it's out of her reach, but I see she can do it. I will leave her and let her struggle and figure it out.
10. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
11. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I will let her cry, and you know what? I'll tell her, "You can do it." You know, I talk to her in Greek, actually. I'm trying to-
12. LHLewis Howes
  Really?
13. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I, I-
14. LHLewis Howes
  That's cool
15. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... m- I want her to learn... Uh, I speak Greek, so I want her to learn another language.
16. LHLewis Howes
  That's incredible. I'm glad you're doing that.
17. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Yes.
18. LHLewis Howes
  It's a gift.
19. EPEvy Poumpouras
  You're... Are you gonna do that if you have children?
20. LHLewis Howes
  Oh, yeah. Only Spanish. Only Spanish, yeah.
21. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Yes.
22. LHLewis Howes
  I mean, Martha will speak to her in Spanish, yeah.
23. EPEvy Poumpouras
  You'll speak to... So I speak to her in Greek. My mother in Greek speak, uh, and my husband speaks to her in English.
24. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
25. EPEvy Poumpouras
  And so she's learning both languages at the same time, but I, I let her struggle.
26. LHLewis Howes
  That's great.
27. EPEvy Poumpouras
  And, you know, as soon as I can, she's... I'm putting a gi on her, which is her jujitsu outfit. She's going into jujitsu. Um, I think she's too young at 18. I would put her in if I could. I want her to struggle. I want her to learn at a young age to overcome, but then at the same time, she also knows I'm there. So if she needs a hug-
28. LHLewis Howes
  Mm
29. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... I give it to her.
30. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
22:06 – 27:11
Understanding Personality Types: Lion, T-Rex, Mouse, Monkey
1. EPEvy Poumpouras
  human nature-
2. LHLewis Howes
  Mm
3. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... right? Like, the way the world is. Like, she'll have me for a period of time in her life, and after that, she'll be on her own.
4. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
5. EPEvy Poumpouras
  And I, I owe her, as a parent, to make sure that she can handle herself when her mom's gone or her dad's gone.
6. LHLewis Howes
  Right.
7. EPEvy Poumpouras
  It's not that tough in my house. [laughs]
8. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs] You're loving. You're loving. Yes. Those are great three... Those are three great things. Your circle matters, be instrumental over identity based of sense making, and be humble. Have humility.
9. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Yeah.
10. LHLewis Howes
  Right. Um, I saw this quote, uh, uh, this, this quote in a Time magazine article that was about a study published in Nature Human Behaviour, and it provides evidence for the existence of at least four personality types, and I'm curious what you learned, but I just wanna read this out. Four different personality types: average, reserved, self-centered, and role model personality type. Each one of them is based on, on the extent to which people display five different major character traits, including neurotic- neuroticism, extroversion, openness, agreeableness, and conscientiousness. Um, I'm curious. I'm not sure if that's the different, the different personality types that you learned, but how can someone understand what personality type is in front of them, of a family member, a friend, someone they're meeting for the first time? Is there any strategies or techniques to learning a personality type of someone that you're meeting?
11. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Okay, so this is a good question. I'm not familiar with this, and I've not been taught this, but I've been taught another one with four personality types.
12. LHLewis Howes
  Okay, what are those?
13. EPEvy Poumpouras
  So we're gonna give them animal names.
14. LHLewis Howes
  Okay.
15. EPEvy Poumpouras
  So here's the thing. I, I... The researchers behind this, um, are Dr. Emily Allison and Dr. and, and Laur- Lawrence Allison, and they actually do... Let me see what I'm allowed to say 'cause I always try to share stuff and not share too much. But they do a lot of research, and they actually work very closely with the intelligence communities-
16. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm
17. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... to include where I came from.
18. LHLewis Howes
  Sure.
19. EPEvy Poumpouras
  So I've gotten my training there.
20. LHLewis Howes
  Okay.
21. EPEvy Poumpouras
  So these are the four animal archetypes that they talk about. You can be lion, T-Rex, mouse, or monkey Now, somebody who is Lion is a person who likes to be in control. They want to set the agenda. Somebody who is T-Rex is someone who typically, uh, fights. They're very kind of frank, forthright, sometimes they can come off a little bit blunt. They're fighters, right? Someone who is Mouse is someone who, who will suppress themselves a bit more.
22. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
23. EPEvy Poumpouras
  They're a little bit more submissive. Um, they can be patient and humbl- humble, but they can also become avoidant, right? They can push themselves down to suppress themselves, um, so they can fit in. Maybe they want to be really liked or something like that. And then the other personal- personality type is Monkey. It's like, "Hey, everybody, I'm here. So good to see you. Come here." This and that.
24. LHLewis Howes
  They're all over the place.
25. EPEvy Poumpouras
  They're, they're very warm, they're social.
26. LHLewis Howes
  Uh-huh.
27. EPEvy Poumpouras
  They're engaging. Now, those are the animal archetypes. We move through these because you're not one thing and you're different things with different people, by the way, 'cause you can be a very strong personality maybe at work, but then when you go home, let's say you have an abusive relationship or a not healthy one, you can go from being Lion-
28. LHLewis Howes
  To Mouse
29. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... to being Mouse.
30. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
27:11 – 29:38
The Four Predominant Personalities
1. EPEvy Poumpouras
  versions of this, and I think sometimes we can be... Like, for example, Mouse, I can be Mouse, and, which you are when you interview people, you actually flip. You, you... There's Lion and Mouse.
2. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
3. EPEvy Poumpouras
  So when I speak, I'm Lion. You sit back, you let me have the floor, you let me speak and explain, right? But you're humble, you're seeking guidance, you're asking questions. You're good Mouse.
4. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
5. EPEvy Poumpouras
  And hopefully most of your [laughs] people come here are good Lion.
6. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
7. EPEvy Poumpouras
  They're setting the agenda, they're helping give points, they're talking, they're sharing with your viewers. Now, the bad version of that would be I'm a bo- I'm a bully. I'm a, I'm, I'm someone who bullies people. I'm a supervisor or someone who kind of pushes people d- down. I'm in charge, I'm this, I'm that, I'm the boss. You listen to me. That would be a bad version of Lion, and a bad version of Mouse would be someone who becomes very weak, submissive, almost avoidant, because they're just trying to keep that, that bully and that stuff off of them. They're too afraid to speak. So those are the four predominant personalities. Which one do you think you are?
8. LHLewis Howes
  I guess I could be a little bit of all of them in different scenarios as well, but I think the, the main would be the Lion, I think. Um, but I could also be a Monkey. You know, I could be a Monkey 'cause I'm very social and warm and engaging and, you know, just try to do a little bit of everything, but I guess I'm-
9. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I think you're probably good Lion.
10. LHLewis Howes
  Good Lion, okay. There you go. Is Monkey bad?
11. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Well, mostly. No, Monkey's good. Monkey's-
12. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs]
13. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Monkey... Well, we were Monkeys, we were Monkeys outside-
14. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs] Right, right, right
15. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... when we first met.
16. LHLewis Howes
  There you go.
17. EPEvy Poumpouras
  "Hey, how are you doing? How are you?" So that's soc- Um, so when you're a good Monkey, I'm social, warm, I'm respectful.
18. LHLewis Howes
  Uh-huh, uh-huh.
19. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Bad Monkey is, and you probably for sure get this, "Hey, you know, I really want to come on your show. Hey, you know, here's my book."
20. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
21. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Or, "Hey, here's this guy," or, "Hey, do you, can you get me tickets to this?" Or-
22. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah, yeah
23. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... "Hey, I saw you in Success Magazine and I really wanted... Can I talk to the editor there?"
24. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
25. EPEvy Poumpouras
  You know, I really... That's bad Monkey.
26. LHLewis Howes
  Sure, sure.
27. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Like, people can go into bad Monkey.
28. LHLewis Howes
  Gotcha.
29. EPEvy Poumpouras
  That's a, that's a little bit of a trying too hard to sell, like car salesmen.
30. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
29:38 – 32:02
Creating Space for Others to Share
1. EPEvy Poumpouras
  got up there and they said, "You want to, you want to be king or queen in what you, in reading people? Shut up." Give people space to reveal themselves.
2. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
3. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Stop talking.
4. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs]
5. EPEvy Poumpouras
  They'll show you. First of all, people love to speak up, talk about themselves. So let them, let them go. And then you can ask questions. I do this. I actually hate talking about myself. [laughs] I'll do it on a platform like this-
6. LHLewis Howes
  Sure, sure
7. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... because I understand why we're here. But in real life, I don't like talking about myself. I'm just... I'm more introvert, and I'll say, "No." You know, people ask me, "Oh, Evy, what project are you on?" I was like, "Oh, I'm talking to this production company. We'll see where it goes."
8. LHLewis Howes
  Right.
9. EPEvy Poumpouras
  "What are you doing lately? Oh, wow, really? You're in accounting? That's amazing. What kind of accounting do you do? Tell me about that." And then I listen. So you'll pick up that person's mannerisms. You'll hear the language that they use, how they speak. And now you have a better idea who's in front of you.
10. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
11. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I call it, it's 80/20. 80% of the time they speak, 20% of the time you speak.
12. LHLewis Howes
  What if both of you are like that, and you want to speak less, and so you both just ask, "Oh, I'll tell you very little," and popping the question back to the other person?
13. EPEvy Poumpouras
  So you bring good monkey out.
14. LHLewis Howes
  Uh-huh.
15. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Warm, social, respectful, but you can ask questions.
16. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
17. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Tell me about that, or see what they like to talk about. See what they wanna talk about.
18. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
19. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Not what you wanna talk about.
20. LHLewis Howes
  What if both individuals are that personality, where they're both like, "I just wanna know what you think. You tell me more about you."
21. EPEvy Poumpouras
  [laughs]
22. LHLewis Howes
  "No, you tell me more about you."
23. EPEvy Poumpouras
  So I think-
24. LHLewis Howes
  "No, you tell me more about you." [laughs]
25. EPEvy Poumpouras
  If you're that, that's actually, you're both, you're both mouse.
26. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah, yeah.
27. EPEvy Poumpouras
  This is kind of like... So both pe-... So here's the thing. That's more mouse.
28. LHLewis Howes
  Uh-huh.
29. EPEvy Poumpouras
  So mouse is me saying, "Hey, Lewis, what do you wanna eat later?"
30. LHLewis Howes
  Uh-huh.
32:02 – 34:28
Personality Types: Narcissism, Sociopathy, and Psychopathy
1. EPEvy Poumpouras
  more lion.
2. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
3. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Just because of all the things you do.
4. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm. Yes.
5. EPEvy Poumpouras
  You're trying to control everything.
6. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
7. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Control your relationships, your business deals, and so-
8. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm
9. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... so that the ship doesn't leave without you.
10. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
11. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I could see you being like, from what I know of you, like, "Hey, you know, let me slow down."
12. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah.
13. EPEvy Poumpouras
  "Let me look at this."
14. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah. That's interesting. Um, I, there's so many different... You're in the TV world, you know, you host and you commentate on a lot of different things in the TV world and the news. Um, obviously we're talking about your book, Becoming Bulletproof: Life Lessons from a Secret Service Agent. If you guys haven't checked this out yet, make sure you check it out. But it seems to me like the more I open up the news, social media, Netflix, there's just extreme personality type documentaries or docuseries of serial killers or personality types that have did horrible things, and that seems to be what's being featured a lot lately. I think people are just fascinated by these horrible stories that happen, or murders or things like that, sociopaths, all that different stuff. I'm curious, you know, narcissism, sociopath, psychopath, these personality types are thrown out a lot, these kind of words are thrown out a lot, and people use them freely. You know, "That's a narcissist, that's a sociopath, that's a s-..." How can you really tell if someone is a narcissist, a sociopath or a psychopath? Like, how can you tell if they have nuances of it or if they are one? Is there a strategy in finding that out?
15. EPEvy Poumpouras
  You know, I am totally on board with you with this, because everybody's calling everybody a narcissist. It's like the thing. You don't agree with me, you're a narcissist. You said this to me, you're a narcissist. It's like, pull out the DSM5, which is actually the book that has all the disorders in there. I have a master's in forensic psychology, and you not agreeing with someone, or rather someone not agreeing with you, doesn't mean you label them as a narcissist. And the fact that we label everybody all these things, just in and of itself, you labeling somebody else a narcissist is narcissistic of you.
16. LHLewis Howes
  Makes you... [laughs] Right.
17. EPEvy Poumpouras
  So when we look at true narcissism, there's criteria you have to meet, and there's certain criteria. Lack of empathy is one.
18. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
19. EPEvy Poumpouras
  They don't feel bad. Lack of remorse. Now, when you look at serial killers or people who commit certain types of crime, that's falls under antisocial disorder. When people think of antisocial disorder, they think of someone who doesn't like to socialize and doesn't like to be monkey, right? As we talked about it before.
34:28 – 37:07
The Rise of Narcissism and Lack of Empathy
1. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
2. EPEvy Poumpouras
  They don't wanna be warm and engaging. They kind of are then to themselves. That's not that. Antisocial disorder essentially is, is a person who lacks empathy, and that's where sociopath or psychopath fall in, although they, they, they've moved away from the using these terms in, in actual psychology. The chances of you coming across someone like that, it's, they s- some of the research that I had looked at said 1 out of 25 people will be one of these. So 1 out of 25 people will have this tendency, uh, meet this criteria. It doesn't-
3. LHLewis Howes
  Of a narcissist or sociopath or psych-
4. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Socio- sociopath, psychopath.
5. LHLewis Howes
  Really?
6. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Yes.
7. LHLewis Howes
  One out of 25?
8. EPEvy Poumpouras
  One out of 25. Right, maybe a little bit of narcissism, but 1 out of 25. I think narcissism is going up in our culture right now. I think we are seeing a bit more of it, and the reason why I think we're seeing that a lo- a lot is the United States predominantly, I can't speak to other countries as much, is a very identity culture.
9. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
10. EPEvy Poumpouras
  We're all me, me, me, me, me. I feel like this.
11. LHLewis Howes
  I, I, I.
12. EPEvy Poumpouras
  My feelings need to be validated. I need this. I need that. And then with that, um, social media has made us more self-focus rather than outward-focus. So we are more identity. We also have, we lack more empathy as well. Social media, um, has also done that. In fact, I just literally on the way here, the news just hit me up, NBC, and like, "Hey, we wanna do a story." They're looking at college campuses. Crime is going up on college campuses.
13. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
14. EPEvy Poumpouras
  And they're want- they wanna know why. One of the reasons why is a lack of connection. I'm an adjunct professor. I teach criminal justice criminology. I have a three-hour block that I do. When I give my students breaks, 'cause I give them, do you know not one person turns around and says, "Hey, how are you? How are you doing today?" They all pull out their phones and they do this.
15. LHLewis Howes
  Mm. Really?
16. EPEvy Poumpouras
  They don't even get up out of their chair to go on break. I have to tell them, "Get up, go walk, go use the bathroom, get some water." So why is that a problem? The problem is I'm not building community. I'm not getting to know you. You're there and I'm here. And so when we don't feel connected to people, we have a lack of empathy, we fear or don't like the other, and we are more likely to cause harm to the other
17. LHLewis Howes
  Hmm
18. EPEvy Poumpouras
  All these things come into play. And social media, watching... I do the news, everything's negative. It's true. They're not gonna put anything positive because you, the viewer, don't wanna see it. You wanna see the drama.
19. LHLewis Howes
  Hmm.
20. EPEvy Poumpouras
  You wanna see, they're called celebrity cases, the cases, especially crime, they wanna see those cases over
37:07 – 39:47
Self-Focus and Harm
1. EPEvy Poumpouras
  and over again. When you're also consuming this stuff on a repetitive basis, it's also not healthy for you.
2. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
3. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I, I have a criminal background, right? I've never watched a crime show, ever.
4. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
5. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I help make 'em. [laughs]
6. LHLewis Howes
  Right, right. [laughs]
7. EPEvy Poumpouras
  But I don't, I, it's too much. I need a break. I need something else.
8. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
9. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I will watch something that has nothing to do with that. So you also have to think, "What am I feeding my mind?" But again, to go back to the sociopathic question, the, the main thing that we see between sociopath, psychopath, or r- really antisocial disorder, and narcissism is a lack of empathy. I don't feel bad for what I do. It's my inability to feel bad for causing you harm.
10. LHLewis Howes
  So I don't feel bad for what I do to you, or what someone is doing to you?
11. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I do to you.
12. LHLewis Howes
  Okay.
13. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I don't... I, I'm focused... And their very identity, by the way. They ver- they are very self-focused. It is me, me, me. So a couple things to pay, to pay attention to. When you hear somebody using the repeated use of I, I, I, I, a little bit of a red flag, right? Y- you can even see it in email. We... I was trained to look at language-
14. LHLewis Howes
  Wow
15. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... and how you can know in language when somebody is very self-focused or even depressed. If you see the repeated use of I, I this, I that, it's either self-fo- focused narcissism or depression. People, people also who are very d- depressed are very self-focused. I analyze myself. Another thing that's coming, causing harm, and I think people are coming out with this, is when you sit and you talk about your problems all the time, when you dwell on them, when you analyze them. When you sit there and you've had something bad happen to you and you are trying to dissect that thing to the nth degree to figure out why it happened, what you're doing is you're feeding your brain, and, you know, even spiritually, right, if we bring it to l- that level, only negative things. You are dwelling and retelling and reliving the harm that's caused to you. And you know one of the predominant places that happens in? Is in the therapy room.
16. LHLewis Howes
  Hmm.
17. EPEvy Poumpouras
  'Cause most people when they go to therapy, what do you do? You talk about everything that's wrong in your life.
18. LHLewis Howes
  Hmm.
19. EPEvy Poumpouras
  So you have to take a moment, 'cause I've had people come to me, "I need help with this," and when I speak to them, they'll be in years of therapy. And I'll ask them, "What do you go for? What do you do when you're in there?"
20. LHLewis Howes
  Right.
21. EPEvy Poumpouras
  "I talk about my problems." So if I sit and I always talk about my problems, and I relive them and I retell them, and then I get emotionally upset, what kind of head space am I in?
22. LHLewis Howes
  Right.
23. EPEvy Poumpouras
  You know, the Hippocratic Oath, I'm Greek, it's do no harm. So I think going
39:47 – 42:26
The Importance of Therapy and Emotional Expression
1. EPEvy Poumpouras
  to therapy and getting, uh, help is a great thing, so long as you understand, "Why am I going? What's my purpose?" And so long as you have a good doctor that says, "We're done now."
2. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
3. EPEvy Poumpouras
  "You don't need me anymore."
4. LHLewis Howes
  Yes. That's interesting. You know, because, you know, growing up as a man in, I guess, the Western culture, I was n- I was never acceptable to express feelings, right? So it was kind of like an extreme of just don't acknowledge it, don't talk about it, don't express it, don't let it out. Let it out through anger or sports or some other strategy to kind of let out your emotions. And by suppressing it for so long and not just talking about it at least a few times, it made me feel, like, a lot of pressure. It made me feel like something was boiling inside of me. And as I started t- talking about the things that were causing me emotional pain or frustration, and figuring out how to integrate the lessons of healing or release and move beyond it, I started to feel better. But if I was constantly reliving a story and feeling emotionally heightened by it, I could assume that wouldn't benefit me long term.
5. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Hmm.
6. LHLewis Howes
  But on the flip side, like, not talking about it at all might cause me stress or chronic, you know, stress or pain or something else. So I think it's a balance-
7. EPEvy Poumpouras
  It's the balance-
8. LHLewis Howes
  ... of, like, learning how to communicate it and learning how to release it, but getting a strategy to go beyond it.
9. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Yes. You, you wanna be in a state of moving forward.
10. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah.
11. EPEvy Poumpouras
  But if I retell it and retell it and retell it and retell it and relive it, it's like eating McDonald's. No offense to McDonald's.
12. LHLewis Howes
  Yes.
13. EPEvy Poumpouras
  But if I eat McDonald's every day, I'm putting junk in my body, my body's gonna show. If I'm retelling every bad event and I'm feeding that to my mind and into my soul cons- on a consistent basis-
14. LHLewis Howes
  Yes
15. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... I'm not gonna feel good either. So you control the thoughts that come into your, your mind. And if you sit... And sometimes, Lewis, bad things just happen. And sometimes there is no why did it happen. It happened, and sometimes there's no analyzing it-
16. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm
17. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... and assessing it to f- to figure out what.
18. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah.
19. EPEvy Poumpouras
  And I say this, I, I was here September 11th. I was in the World Trade Center. I survived. I was almost-
20. LHLewis Howes
  You were there during it?
21. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I was. I was there.
22. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
23. EPEvy Poumpouras
  My, I had colleagues who died, uh, friends who died. I was almost killed. If I sat and I retold that story and relived it, I would be a mess. How am I ever gonna move past it?
24. LHLewis Howes
  Right.
25. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Or at least let it just be. I'll tell you this, I can't heal from that. I don't know how to heal from something like
42:26 – 44:42
Near Death Experience at the World Trade Center
1. EPEvy Poumpouras
  that.
2. LHLewis Howes
  Interesting.
3. EPEvy Poumpouras
  But I've allowed it to be part of what I experienced.
4. LHLewis Howes
  You've accepted it. You've...
5. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Yes, but it also gave me a gift. It made me appreciate life.
6. LHLewis Howes
  Hmm.
7. EPEvy Poumpouras
  You know, that day was truly a... You know, I had probably, I've had a couple of close calls in my life and 'cause of my career, but that was truly a moment where I thought, I was like, "I'm gonna die."
8. LHLewis Howes
  Really?
9. EPEvy Poumpouras
  When the first tower was coming down, I was by the, the street by the base, and we, we had a triage. We didn't know it was gonna collapse.
10. LHLewis Howes
  So you were near, you were in the base of the buildings.
11. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Yes. Well, I worked in the World Trade Center.
12. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
13. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Our offices were there. The US Secret Service field office was New York, and we were out of it.
14. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
15. EPEvy Poumpouras
  So I was there from the first plane to the second to the collapse of both towers. Um-
16. LHLewis Howes
  But you were on the ground. You weren't in the building.
17. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I... No, I didn't. We were in seven, and that's when the first plane hit. So it was the, the... That building collapsed after the towers. In fact, when, when the towers fell-
18. LHLewis Howes
  Oh, seriously
19. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... they fell on seven, and then seven eventually c- burned and collapsed.
20. LHLewis Howes
  Gotcha. You weren't in the towers.
21. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I was not in the tower itself.
22. LHLewis Howes
  Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Yeah.
23. EPEvy Poumpouras
  But when the first plane hit, we went to go help, and then as we were going into the towers, we were trying to go in, the second plane hit.
24. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
25. EPEvy Poumpouras
  And then debris came out, and it just landed on top of all of us. It's like, it was literally just, you know, luck. Either you got hit by something, or you didn't.
26. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
27. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Until the... I remember the entrance was blocked, so then we went around, and just people started piling out. And then at that point, we just started triaging people. Who needed to go into an ambulance, um, who needed... Who was just in shock maybe and just needed to kinda be pushed out of the vicinity. Um, but as we were doing that, I mean, nobody knew. I didn't know the building was gonna fall.
28. LHLewis Howes
  Right. They just thought it was gonna be, you know, burning. Let's get people out. But then it-
29. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Yes.
30. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
44:42 – 47:16
Appreciating Life and Letting Go
1. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I mean, I don't wanna say my life flashed before my eyes, but it, it did. And thought, I thought about, like, all the things I didn't get to do, and I remember thinking to myself, you know, "Mm, not yet. Not-"
2. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
3. EPEvy Poumpouras
  "... not ready to go." But I didn't have a choice. Um, and I just let it be. I was like, you know, I, I began to pray. That's intuitively, that's where I went. I began to pray. I'm like, "Well, if it's my time, it's, it's my time."
4. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
5. EPEvy Poumpouras
  But the gift in that was it taught me to appreciate my life. And so now every day, if something happens, and even petty things that happen, right? I go bad T-Rex.
6. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs]
7. EPEvy Poumpouras
  [laughs] I pause. I'm like, "What am I pissed about?"
8. LHLewis Howes
  Right.
9. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Like, so it gave me a new license on life. But take that trauma. It's trauma, it's tragery- tragedy, whatever you wanna call it, and if I go to therapy and all I do is talk about that on a consistent basis, how well do you think I'm gonna do? How well am I going to recover?
10. LHLewis Howes
  Right.
11. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I'm not, 'cause I'm gonna relive all those people that died, all those people I couldn't save-
12. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah
13. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... how I almost died, how my friends died, how my colleagues died. Why did this happen? Why did they do this? Why, why, why, why, why? Even to this point, I go for screening. The, we're on, um, it's the World Trade Center Health Monitoring Program. Because of the exposure to all that stuff, so many people have died from cancer and all that. I go every year for my screening.
14. LHLewis Howes
  Really?
15. EPEvy Poumpouras
  In fact, I'm due. They're probably [laughs] I'm due because the chances of me getting cancer, and there's an aggravated version of cancer you would, you get, people are getting from that exposure. It's just more, I guess, ferocious and vicious than a, a typical... Not that, you know, my dad died of cancer, but I guess this cancer is a very vicious type of cancer. But even then, so I guess I understood that and I learned that I must let go.
16. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
17. EPEvy Poumpouras
  And I'll never go to who Evy was before, but I don't wanna go to who she was before. I wanna take what I experienced and bring that experience into my life, and now I appreciate my life.
18. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
19. EPEvy Poumpouras
  And I'll tell you this, Lewis, if I'm ready to, I'm ready to go now. Tomorrow if something happens, tonight something happens, I'm okay.
20. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
21. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Because I've lived my life the best I could when, and I've done the things that I could. I've, I, I tried to find and make meaning in my life.
22. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
23. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I'm okay.
24. LHLewis Howes
  Right. [siren] I'm hearing an ambulance go outside as this is happening. This is pretty, pretty intense. Um, one of the things that, uh, I can really appreciate how you say reliving past painful events and speaking about them and
47:16 – 49:51
Moving Forward and Overcoming Challenges
1. LHLewis Howes
  causing yourself more emotional, heightened emotions and stress doesn't really serve you past a certain point.
2. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Yes. That's all I'm saying.
3. LHLewis Howes
  Right. For me, I'm a big fan of, I call therapy coaching, 'cause I try not to live in the past. I try to say, "What can I prepare for the future? What can I do to give me feedback on how to improve to prepare for future challenges that might arise?" And my, my therapist, I really call her a coach, I'm saying, "What are people in their 50s, 60s, and 70s struggling with, that if they did at my age and I can prepare for it now, I won't have those struggles?" So that's the way I really try to think about it, not like, "Oh, this happened to me when I was a kid." I've already done that work. Um, but knowing the traumas from the past and how it affects my personality type now, how can I keep improving and working to overcome potential future challenges now? That's the way I look at it, and that's why it helps me. But...
4. EPEvy Poumpouras
  But, but you've, I get, you find the positive in it.
5. LHLewis Howes
  Yes. Yeah. It's more of thinking of, like, how can I just keep improving my life?
6. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Yes. But you know, but you also, you know you-
7. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah, exactly
8. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... best, and you know what works for you.
9. LHLewis Howes
  Right. Yeah.
10. EPEvy Poumpouras
  And if that's helping you elevate, then that, and it, but it's helping you move forward.
11. LHLewis Howes
  Exactly. It's not keeping me stuck in the past.
12. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Correct.
13. LHLewis Howes
  It's saying, how can I make the most of today and the next day?
14. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Yes. And I think that's differentiation. Does this going keep me stuck in the past? And now has my identity become this past event that happened? 9/11 was one day So you're gonna tell me the rest of my life is gonna be defined by this one day?
15. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
16. EPEvy Poumpouras
  What is that, .01% of my overall life, but this one day is gonna define everything moving forward?
17. LHLewis Howes
  Why do so many people let one day or one event define their entire life?
18. EPEvy Poumpouras
  'Cause they go back to it, and they keep going back to it, and you try to make sense of it. How... I can't make sense of 9/11. Somebody thought it was a good idea to do that. So I'm gonna sit and hyperanalyze and why all that loss of life, and that's just one example, and there's so many other examples, like I've endured, you've endured. In fact, I read this one study, 70% of people have been through some type of trauma or tragedy in their lives. The majority of people have. So we take that and we figure out how to be better and move forward. You know, it's interesting. For me, my therapy after that, they actually forced me to go to therapy after that.
19. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
20. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Secret Service made me go to therapy. They made me sit in this big group wh- where we all told our 9/11 story.
21. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
22. EPEvy Poumpouras
  So we
49:51 – 52:15
Finding Therapy through Service
1. EPEvy Poumpouras
  went around the room. It was, like, two days later, and I was told by my boss I had to go. I didn't-
2. LHLewis Howes
  Two days later? That's pretty recent, isn't it?
3. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Yes, because we had to go back out and work. [laughs]
4. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
5. EPEvy Poumpouras
  We... Yeah, there was no-
6. LHLewis Howes
  You had to process it and move on.
7. EPEvy Poumpouras
  It's like process, talk about your feelings-
8. LHLewis Howes
  Let's-
9. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... and let's move forward
10. LHLewis Howes
  ... go serve, yeah.
11. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I, I, I appreciate them even doing that. So we went around the room, and each p- person told their story, and I will tell you, by the time maybe... it came to me, I... it w- I didn't wanna talk about it. It was just so hard to hear everybody, and I gave, like, such an abbreviated version. I was there, the plane hit, the other plane hit, it collapsed, then the other one collapsed. I'm okay. I'm good. That's... And I just-
12. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
13. EPEvy Poumpouras
  But for me, it didn't work. But you know what did work, where my therapy was? After that, they asked for volunteers at Ground Zero.
14. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
15. EPEvy Poumpouras
  And I volunteered, and I spent a couple of weeks down at Ground Zero helping other people who had lost, lost a lot more than I had, and just helping be part of a collective process. That was my therapy.
16. LHLewis Howes
  Yes.
17. EPEvy Poumpouras
  And I think h- maybe had I not had that, perhaps I would have struggled.
18. LHLewis Howes
  Interesting.
19. EPEvy Poumpouras
  So therapy looks different for different people.
20. LHLewis Howes
  Man, that's so powerful. I think that's... [clears throat] I, I always feel some type of therapeutic release when I'm in service, when I'm helping someone that needs something, that is struggling or suffering or is challenged in some way. When I can be of support and service, I feel like it is a therapeutic experience, and I think it's really hard to be depressed when you're in service to someone else. It's really hard to be thinking about your own problems, and you can... Like you said, you can see, oh, man, this person has it way worse than I do. Let me be of service, and not diminish what I've been through, but appreciate what I have, and I think that's a powerful thing, too.
21. EPEvy Poumpouras
  You can find meaning in everything. Like, not meaning in that why did it happen?
22. LHLewis Howes
  Yes.
23. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Sometimes, why'd it happen? 'Cause it's just a messed up situation, because the world's messed up, because people do messed up things, because it's naive of, of us to think that people will not cause you harm, because there are some people that will. I know this as a former criminal investigator. You can't live in la-la land. That's reality. But if I know this, I understand this, I'm gonna move through the world in the best way I can, and I'm going to f- I'm not going to be surprised when people cause me harm.
24. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
25. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I'm aware of it. I'm not expecting it, but when it does happen, I have the understanding that these people exist in the world,
52:15 – 54:38
The ability to sell harm to ourselves
1. EPEvy Poumpouras
  they move through the world, and most people that cause you harm don't think they're doing anything to you.
2. LHLewis Howes
  Mm. They're not intentionally doing it.
3. EPEvy Poumpouras
  They will validate it. I have interviewed countless people-
4. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs]
5. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... in the interview room. People committed horrible crimes against other people, and they will sit down and they will validate or justify to me, "I did this, but here's my reason." You can sell anything to yourself. We've all done it. You've hurt people. I've hurt, hurt people, and when we did it, we sold it to ourselves a certain way. "Well, I'm doing this because of X, Y, and Z." So maybe you sell it to yourself like, "Well, this is how it works for me," but in the end you still end up hurting someone else.
6. LHLewis Howes
  Yes.
7. EPEvy Poumpouras
  It happens. Now, there are varying degrees to that, but I... You can sell anything to yourself and make it okay for you to cause harm to someone else. I would see it with all sorts of crime.
8. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
9. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I remember working this big... It was a, it was a big enough case, but it was a bank case. There was an employee. A lot of the fraud that happens at banks, a lot of it does come internally-
10. LHLewis Howes
  Wow
11. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... from employees. So there was one person who worked at the bank, and I guess this bank, we won't say what bank it is, this bank would leave their money out. Like, they didn't lock the safe. They would leave stock, leave stockpiles of money out. So this person, this employee, would steal money. They stole a lot of money over time, and he knew where the cameras were, so there were blind spots where he would take the money and they wouldn't see it. So very... Actually, it was a simple case. Um, so this money's disappearing. I sit the person down. Uh, over the years it turned out to be a lot of money, and his justification was, the way he sold it to himself was, "If that money was so important to them, why didn't they lock it up?"
12. LHLewis Howes
  Oh, my gosh.
13. EPEvy Poumpouras
  "It obviously wasn't, so I took it. If they, if they cared about their money, they'd lock it up. Shame on them." That's how he sold it. You can sell anything to yourself if you want to.
14. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
15. EPEvy Poumpouras
  And that's how we sell to ourselves when we cause somebody harm. Now, there are varying degrees of how much harm we cause, but you have to pause and say, "Am I causing true harm, or is the harm gonna, I'm gonna cause enough for me to feel okay because I have to make a certain decision?"
16. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs] You remind me of a story I went through where we had an employee here a few years ago that we had a $100 bill out, and it was gone one day, and we, we confronted them, and, uh, one of the other employees had saw someone
54:38 – 56:42
Stealing and Red Flags
1. LHLewis Howes
  else take it, and we're like, "Did anyone take this or move this?" You know, we weren't thinking that anyone stole it, but they just were like, "Hey, why is this... Where is this?" And when we confronted the guy and he pointed at the other person, we confronted him and he said, "Hey, did you take this $100 bill that was out?" And he goes Oh, you mean this $100 bill? I go, "Yeah." He goes, "Oh, it was just out there. I just thought I could take it." But just like this justification, right? It was like, well, it's not your $100 bill. Like, why are you just taking the money? But that's what this person thought at the bank. Well, it's just out there, so they didn't care about it, and so I'll just take it.
2. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Exactly. That's how he sold it to himself.
3. LHLewis Howes
  That's interesting. But he didn't act like it was a big deal. It was like, "Oh, it was just... It was here, so I'm just gonna take it from the office."
4. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Yes, 'cause if you cared about it, you would've put it away. It's still stealing. Did you, did you-
5. LHLewis Howes
  Oh, he was fired that day.
6. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Okay. [laughs]
7. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah, yeah, that day. He was gone.
8. EPEvy Poumpouras
  I was gonna say, I was gonna have a moment. I'm like, what do we do?
9. LHLewis Howes
  He was fired that day. Yeah, yeah. Uh, there was a number of red flags be- before that anyways, but that was like, okay, you can't steal money, so.
10. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Well, pause. The red flags are the behavior signals that people give you.
11. LHLewis Howes
  Yes.
12. EPEvy Poumpouras
  So you see these signals. It's the behavior. I think when you brought up narcissism before and all these labels, labeling people, don't label the person, label the behavior.
13. LHLewis Howes
  Mm. That's interesting.
14. EPEvy Poumpouras
  Label what they show you.
15. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
16. EPEvy Poumpouras
  What am I seeing in this moment? What is the behavior I'm seeing? That's what you label, and that's what's going to show you what's going on. Because when you label the person, the problem with labeling people is also they're people that we have emotional ties to often. That's my this, that's my that. And so it becomes a little muddy-
17. LHLewis Howes
  Mm
18. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... and we can't see clearly. But when you label the behavior, if you can just put aside who the person is and just label what they do, you will see clearly. That's why it's easier for you to give somebody else advi- advice-
19. LHLewis Howes
  Mm
20. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... about someone they don't, that you don't know. Because you're, you're hearing about what this person-
21. LHLewis Howes
  The behaviors
22. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... did to them.
23. LHLewis Howes
  Uh-huh.
24. EPEvy Poumpouras
  You're hearing about the behavior, and you're making a rational assessment based off of the behavior of this other person.
25. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah.
26. EPEvy Poumpouras
  And that-
27. LHLewis Howes
  Not the relationship or the chemicals of love or whatever might be there.
28. EPEvy Poumpouras
  No. No, you're not introducing all those complexities. All those complexities muddy the
56:42 – 57:15
Understanding the Reasons for Bad Decisions
1. EPEvy Poumpouras
  water, and that's why we make bad decisions sometimes. 'Cause we're like, "Well, it's this person." Forget who the person is. What did they do? If you label the behavior-
2. LHLewis Howes
  Mm
3. EPEvy Poumpouras
  ... you'll make better choices. [upbeat instrumental music]
4. LHLewis Howes
  I'm curious, when do you know when you've been dating someone that they are actually in love with you? Are there clear signs that someone truly loves you?
5. SPSpeaker
  Such a good question. So I spoke to the world's leading expert on... And I, and I'll, I'll flag here as well that I'm a very, let's, let's call it the earliest career

Episode duration: 57:15

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Intro

The Importance of Your Inner Circle

Building Resilience

The Effects of Chronic Stress on Mental Health

Being Instrumental in Service-based Work

Being Goal-Driven vs Emotion-Driven

Shifting from self-focus to service-focus

Coachability and Humility in the Secret Service

Teaching Children to Process Emotions

Understanding Personality Types: Lion, T-Rex, Mouse, Monkey

The Four Predominant Personalities

Creating Space for Others to Share

Personality Types: Narcissism, Sociopathy, and Psychopathy

The Rise of Narcissism and Lack of Empathy

Self-Focus and Harm

The Importance of Therapy and Emotional Expression

Near Death Experience at the World Trade Center

Appreciating Life and Letting Go

Moving Forward and Overcoming Challenges

Finding Therapy through Service

The ability to sell harm to ourselves

Stealing and Red Flags

Understanding the Reasons for Bad Decisions

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