The #1 REASON You're Single & Can't FIND LOVE... | Robert Greene & Lewis Howes

Robert Greene 0:00 What are the qualities that I really, really want? What is important for me that I didn't get in that last relationship, right?

Lewis Howes 0:07 Yes.

Robert Greene 0:07 Who am I, right? That's just the question. Who am I? What are my deepest needs, and what are my dark patterns, right?

Lewis Howes 0:13 Yes.

Robert Greene 0:14 And then to go through a process of-

Lewis Howes 0:17 [upbeat music] I think you gotta have a dream.

Speaker 0:18 The School of Greatness.

Lewis Howes 0:19 [laughs] Yeah.

Speaker 0:21 Please welcome Lewis Howes.

Lewis Howes 0:23 I wanna ask about the biggest mistake that you've seen in your research, and maybe also your personal experience, uh, that people are making when it comes to finding love and using seduction within that discovery of finding love.

Robert Greene 0:40 Well, the greatest mistake people make is they, they judge simply on appearances.

Lewis Howes 0:46 Yes.

Robert Greene 0:46 And of course, you know, we all have sexual desire, we have physical desires, and often we're attracted to people from... And, and there's a, a sexual component, but the character of that person doesn't mesh with us, right?

Lewis Howes 1:00 Yes.

Robert Greene 1:00 And so the, the physical stuff doesn't last that long. It can't go on forever, although it can go on fairly well if, if, if you connect o- on that level. But it kind of dies down at some point, and then you're confronted with their psychology, their personality, their character. You have to be able... You have to think, "Can I talk to this person in five years and carry on an interesting conversation? Can I sit across from the table," if that is... if you want a long-term relationship-

Lewis Howes 1:27 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 1:27 ... and, you know, find a stimulating conversation with them. You know, because that's, that's really what it ends up boiling down to. And so you, you really wanna be able to also judge their character. And if you're able to look-

Lewis Howes 1:41 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 1:41 ... inside the other person a little bit and to see a kind of deeper connection between you, I believe that that, the sexual part, which is extremely important in any relationship, will actually be intensified and heightened, right? As opposed to the immediate kind of animal attraction-

Lewis Howes 1:58 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 1:58 ... that we have to people. So if you deepen your connection to that person, and love is involved, where you actually feel a vulnerability to them and this kind of back-and-forth electrical charge, I think the physical component, you know, it, the, the value of it increases.

Lewis Howes 2:14 Right.

Robert Greene 2:15 So that's the number one mistake people make, you know? Um, look at-

Lewis Howes 2:20 Is it, is it, do people have sex too early?

Robert Greene 2:24 Well, I don't know what's going on necessarily with young people right now. I know the hookup culture is still pretty strong and, you know, guys are watching a lot of-

Lewis Howes 2:32 Yes

Robert Greene 2:32 ... porn, and so, you know, that's probably a tendency. And in the traditionally, and things have changed, it was the woman who had more to lose c- by becoming pregnant, who tried to keep the sex at bay for at least several weeks or months or, or longer, and that's kind of been lost. But yeah, I think, um, the fact that the, the falling in love process generally takes time, right? I mean, the, we do have love at first sight, and it is a real phenomenon, and I, and I've had it myself.

Lewis Howes 3:05 Really?

Robert Greene 3:05 Yeah. But, um, the idea... So there's a, a famous French writer named Stendhal who wrote a, a great book called On Love, one of the greatest books written about love. It was in the ninet- early 19th century, and he compared to falling in love to what he called crystallization. And it's based on this thing where you would throw a, a piece of wood into this mine in, in Germany somewhere, at Salzburg, and then you would pull it out like a week later and it would be filled with all of these brilliant crystals. And he compared that to the process of falling in love.

Lewis Howes 3:40 Mm.

Robert Greene 3:41 The person is just who they are. They're like a, a, a trunk of a tree. But your mind kind of puts all these qualities on them, crystallizes them into some kind of ideal figure, right? And so that mental process takes time, right? It requires also some distance and some fantasizing. You know, sort of basic elements of human psychology. So if you-

Lewis Howes 4:04 What do you mean by distance?

Robert Greene 4:06 Well-

Lewis Howes 4:07 Like, don't spend all your time with the person in the first month.

Robert Greene 4:09 Yeah. And if, and if, if you're having sex right away, it, it's too close, it's too intimate, it's too c- it's too early to be able to have, go through that process, right?

Lewis Howes 4:16 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 4:17 And often, you know, there's usually a letdown after the, after that initial sexual encounter if you have it too early, right? Whereas opposed to letting time go by and letting the other person begin to think about you and fantasize about you, and in their mind sort of imagine some interesting qualities about you-

Lewis Howes 4:40 Mm

Robert Greene 4:40 ... and fascinate them, which is what he calls this crystallization process. I mean, literally think of it that way, that you're, you're having a, you're, you're, in, in their mind they're kind of forming this sort of ideal crystalled, um, image of you, right? And it takes time, and it takes some absence. It takes the ability to say, you know, you're not in their face all the time. You, you disappear for a couple days, a couple weeks or whatever. Not a, weeks, but a few days. And you let them think about you, and you let that kind of spell... Because seduction and love is kind of a spell that you're casting, right? And there's an art to it. And so the mistake people have is they're, they're in too much of a hurry, right?

Lewis Howes 5:22 Too much of a hurry to wanna have sex, to fall in love, to-

Robert Greene 5:26 Yeah. Or to have, like, a, a really, you know, intimate relationship or, or to get married or whatever it is. In general in our culture, people are in too much of a hurry. They're in too much of a hurry to get, make money, too much of in a hurry to get attention. That also involves in, in, you know, in, in romantic relationships.

Lewis Howes 5:42 Right.

Robert Greene 5:43 Right. So-

Lewis Howes 5:44 So what's the difference between seduction and love?

Robert Greene 5:47 Well, I maintain that the process of seducing is making the other person fall in love, right?

Lewis Howes 5:55 The process of seducing is getting the other person to fall in love. Huh.

Robert Greene 6:01 Um-

Lewis Howes 6:01 Could you, could you-

Robert Greene 6:02 But it doesn't-

Lewis Howes 6:02 ... someone-

Robert Greene 6:03 Yeah

Lewis Howes 6:03 ... could someone fall in love without being seduced? Without seducing them?

Robert Greene 6:08 No. No

Lewis Howes 6:09 Even in love at first sight, there could be like a moment of seduction that turns into that? Or how does that work?

Robert Greene 6:15 Well, even in love at first sight, which I say I've kind of-

Lewis Howes 6:17 Mm

Robert Greene 6:17 ... maybe experienced, it doesn't necessarily lead to something, right?

Lewis Howes 6:22 Right.

Robert Greene 6:22 You still have to go through a process where the other person's character, that you start, um, idealizing and romanticizing and thinking about them. You know, even, even that immediate attraction, there is still the seduction process that has to go on.

Lewis Howes 6:38 Sure, sure.

Robert Greene 6:38 Right? And so, you know, I try in The Art of Seduction, I make the point that political seduction, marketing seduction, social seductions, because in your office you're continually seducing, it's the same process. And it's getting your, getting the other person to think about you, and getting them to fall in love with your product-

Lewis Howes 7:00 Mm

Robert Greene 7:00 ... with your idea, with your political platform, or whatever it is. And that process of internalizing that other person, of having their presence, their s- their, their s- spirit or whatever-

Lewis Howes 7:13 Mm

Robert Greene 7:13 ... inside you, inhabit you-

Lewis Howes 7:15 Mm

Robert Greene 7:15 ... and th- and you're thinking about them a lot, is a process of falling in love.

Lewis Howes 7:19 Mm.

Robert Greene 7:20 Right? So it doesn't mean that there aren't seductions where you're seducing the other person, then it's over after a month, right? It doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to lead to a relationship.

Lewis Howes 7:33 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 7:34 But I don't... So s- I, I separate seduction from just having sex.

Lewis Howes 7:39 Yeah.

Robert Greene 7:39 So if you go to a bar, and you, you pick up a woman in the bar, and that night you go back to your place and you have sex, that's not seduction, right? Because we are psychological creatures, right? We're not, we're not animals, and the process of actually having-

Lewis Howes 7:56 Mm

Robert Greene 7:56 ... our emotions engaged by the other person is, takes a lot deeper process, right? It can't happen quickly, can't happen overnight. So seduction isn't like, you know, pickup artists don't really like The Art of Seduction so much.

Lewis Howes 8:11 Why is that?

Robert Greene 8:12 Because it's not quick enough for them.

Lewis Howes 8:14 Mm.

Robert Greene 8:15 I'm telling, you have to go through these steps. I don't wanna have to go through all these steps. I don't wanna have to wait three weeks to sleep with her, or a month. I don't have to surprise her, give her gifts, or, I'm talking about from the male point of view.

Lewis Howes 8:26 Sure.

Robert Greene 8:26 Do all of these things that Robert talks about. You know, I want it quick, you know. Some of them aren't like that, but some of them are. And so there are plenty of books written out there about how to pick w- up women or guys in a bar. But the, seduction isn't about that. It's something else, it's something more elemental. And I talk in The A- Art of Seduction about how it goes back to our childhood, how we are incredibly vulnerable to the emotions of other people. It begins with our parents, right? And the sense of, you know, we internalize their presence, we're thinking about them. We have this kind of very deep emotional attachment to them. We're seduced by our parents in some ways. It kind of sets a tone from early childhood, this need to feel vulnerable to other people, right?

Lewis Howes 9:12 Mm.

Robert Greene 9:13 Um, that's, that's the thing as well is-

Lewis Howes 9:15 Yeah

Robert Greene 9:16 ... um, you know, it's, a lot of people mistake seduction, and that's the re- reason I wrote the book. They have really bad ideas about it.

Lewis Howes 9:24 What do they think it is?

Robert Greene 9:25 Well, they, they have an idea that it's this kind of cold process. Typically it'll be a male seducer, but it can be a woman, and they're really conniving, and they're coming up with all kinds of tricks-

Lewis Howes 9:36 Schemes and, yeah

Robert Greene 9:37 ... schemes to get the woman or man to like fall for them. And either they're after money or sex or something else, right? And actually, seduction is a matter of vulnerability.

Lewis Howes 9:50 Mm.

Robert Greene 9:50 It's making yourself vulnerable to the other person.

Lewis Howes 9:53 Really?

Robert Greene 9:54 Yeah. Um, and you know, we live in, in times where people have a hard time being vulnerable. You know, if you're insecure, if you're filled with a lot of anxiety, you tend to close up inside of yourself. And to let another person in and to let them have some control over your emotions can be kind of a scary process. But if you can't feel that vulnerability, if you can't open yourself up to the power of that other person, there won't be a seduction. It'll be this kind of cold, mechanical process, right?

Lewis Howes 10:27 So how do we learn to open ourselves up and be vulnerable to allow for seduction to happen? If, so we're really interested in someone, we're like, "Ah, we're really, we wanna start dating this person. We're really excited about the potential, but we're also don't wanna ruin it and mess up."

Robert Greene 10:46 Yeah. Well, um, it, you know, each relationship is different, right?

Lewis Howes 10:51 Yeah.

Robert Greene 10:52 You know, I, I, I talk to a lot of people, uh, on this vulnerability issue, particularly women who've come to me for, for counseling.

Lewis Howes 10:59 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 11:00 They've had a bad experience, right? They dealt with maybe a man who was a kind of cold, calculating seducer type, or in a abusive relationship, right? And, um, what happens is, they get kind of bitter and hardened by it, and they don't wanna open themselves up t- to another relationship. They don't, not aware that's happening, but under, unconsciously that's what's going on. And I try to tell them-

Lewis Howes 11:25 Mm

Robert Greene 11:25 ... "If you let that happen, that means that that person, that abuser or whoever it was, they've defeated you, not only, you know, physically, but mentally. They have conquered you. They have ruined one of the most important aspects of your life. They have made it impossible for you to feel vulnerable and open, 'cause you can't trust another person."

Lewis Howes 11:45 Wow.

Robert Greene 11:46 And it's very difficult. So I, my process in there is telling them that, g- making it clear to them that if that happens, then they have, they have this power over you, and you don't wanna let them have that power, right? And so we work on ways, first making it clear how important it is in life to feel vulnerable, not just to other people, but to everything in the world. That's sort of the subject of my next book. But to feel vulnerable when you read a book, to open yourself to other people's ideas, to open yourself in general to people and to their spirit, and to let them in, and to let them have some influence over you and some power over you. You know?

Lewis Howes 12:26 Why is that important?

Robert Greene 12:28 Because it allows you then to have a deeper understanding and a deeper connection with people. So, you know, we all kind of live in these castles-

Lewis Howes 12:37 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 12:37 ... where we're trying to protect ourselves, right? And we're all kind of defensive bec- and it's for good reason. We live in a world that's very harsh, you know, a lot of information, a lot of things going on at the same time. So we kind of live in these castles. And you're, you're not understanding people unless you can kind of open up to their spirit. I talk about in The, uh, Art of Seduction, Enter the Other Person's Spirit is one of the key chapters, where you're able to kind of put yourself inside of the other person and feel what they might be thinking, right? Which is, I think, a problem that a lot of men have in, in dealing with women that they're try- that they're interested in.

Lewis Howes 13:17 Hmm.

Robert Greene 13:18 Putting yourself in their position, trying to understand what makes them tick, what their psychology is about. To do that, you have to kind of let go of yourself. You have to be willing to kind of float and let yourself go into them-

Lewis Howes 13:32 Right

Robert Greene 13:32 ... and open yourself up to their spirit, and not assume that you know everything about them, or that everything, all of your ideas are correct. So vulnerability is a very important element that we must have in this world in order to be able to have empathy and to be able to understand people.

Lewis Howes 13:51 Is it... You know, you wrote a book about the laws of power, The 48 Laws of Power. Is this, you know, different than the laws of power? The lo- the, you know, the seduction strategies where you're being more vulnerable as opposed to, you know...

Robert Greene 14:08 Well, believe it or not, um, th- I wrote The Art of Seduction as a kind of, not a sequel, but it kind of played off The 48 Laws.

Lewis Howes 14:16 Okay.

Robert Greene 14:16 And there were a few chapters in The 48 Laws that dealt with seduction.

Lewis Howes 14:20 Uh-huh.

Robert Greene 14:21 Such as use absence to create honor and respect, you know? Or make others come to you.

Lewis Howes 14:28 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 14:29 Or create compelling spectacles. There were at least eight or 10 of the 48 laws that were very sort of seduction oriented. And the idea is-

Lewis Howes 14:39 Hmm

Robert Greene 14:39 ... we all want power in this world, I maintain. That's sort of my key thesis that drives all of my books. And the i- it's not power just in a political sense. It's the idea that you have some control over your fate, control over destiny, right? And control and the ability to influence the people around you. Well, seduction is the ultimate form of that kind of power.

Lewis Howes 15:03 Really?

Robert Greene 15:03 That's what I... Yeah, so I talk about that in The 48 Laws.

Lewis Howes 15:07 Uh-huh.

Robert Greene 15:07 It's a form of soft power. So people, if you seduce them, they're not even aware that you have gained this kind of power over them. They've opened up to your influence.

Lewis Howes 15:17 It's kind of hypnotizing in a sense, right? It's like this-

Robert Greene 15:19 Yeah

Lewis Howes 15:20 ... you're not even aware.

Robert Greene 15:21 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 15:21 Just being hypnotized by someone's message or their, their brand or their product, or their political, uh, message as well I guess, right?

Robert Greene 15:30 Yeah. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 15:31 You're just like, "I like this. I don't even know why I like this person."

Robert Greene 15:34 Right.

Lewis Howes 15:35 Interesting.

Robert Greene 15:36 Yeah, because if people sense that you're trying to get power over them, if they sense that you're scheming, that you've read Robert's 48 Laws of Power, whatever, they get defensive and they close themselves off to you, and they, and you can't move them. You can't get the, maneuver them in the right way. I know, um, about 16 years ago, when the pickup artist thing was really big and hot-

Lewis Howes 15:59 With The Game and yeah

Robert Greene 16:00 ... The Game and everything.

Lewis Howes 16:01 Yeah.

Robert Greene 16:01 Neil's a friend of mine, he's a great guy.

Lewis Howes 16:02 Great guy.

Robert Greene 16:03 But, um, you know, every woman in Los Angeles-

Lewis Howes 16:07 [laughs]

Robert Greene 16:08 ... where I live, had been approached by a pickup artist.

Lewis Howes 16:11 Right.

Robert Greene 16:12 They all knew the strategies, the negging, all that kind of, you know, the little-

Lewis Howes 16:16 Putting them down and this, yeah.

Robert Greene 16:17 Yeah. They knew all of it. And so they, it didn't work anymore. It lost, it's, uh, lost all its power because everyone had been exposed to it, right? They could see through the tricks. They could see a pickup artist coming from a mile away, you know? All the little ga- little tricks like-

Lewis Howes 16:34 Hmm

Robert Greene 16:34 ... cards or reading their palm-

Lewis Howes 16:36 Yes

Robert Greene 16:36 ... or all this other stuff. Oh, come on, man, I know you've read that book.

Lewis Howes 16:39 Yeah. [laughs]

Robert Greene 16:40 So it didn't work anymore. So if people sense that you're trying to manipulate them, they close off. And that's why in advertising and marketing, they know that they have to make it seem like they're not advertising, that it's just kind of word of mouth, that it's just average person on the street who's touting their products, et cetera. Because if you're advertising, it's so clearly how you're manipulating, it doesn't work.

Lewis Howes 17:05 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 17:06 So the trick in seduction is to have such a gentle touch that people don't even understand what's going on, and that's what a kind of a master seducer can do, you know?

Lewis Howes 17:17 And what I'm hearing you say, that's, that's living from more of a vulnerable state. Is that right? Being open to, um, being vulnerable, or...?

Robert Greene 17:28 Well, you know, there are people who are cold seducers and they seduce women, but I don't, you know, there's kind of a limit to it as well.

Lewis Howes 17:38 Yes.

Robert Greene 17:38 It's not the kind that I'm interested in.

Lewis Howes 17:40 Gotcha.

Robert Greene 17:41 So I've known a lot of really great seducers. There was a person in Paris who was sort of the, to me, the, the greatest seducer I ever personally met. He was this Brazilian guy in Paris.

Lewis Howes 17:51 Huh.

Robert Greene 17:51 Very tall, very handsome guy, but he was the most brilliant seducer I've ever seen, right? And I've known others as well.

Lewis Howes 17:58 What, what did he do?

Robert Greene 17:59 Well, I, I say it was this kind of openness that he had. Um, you know, and, and you could call it a vulnerability. It was a kind of a childish, boyish quality. So women felt comfortable in his presence. He might, you know, dump them in a week and go after someone else. But in that week, he was completely at their feet. He, he, you know, he was inside their brain. He understood them deeply, and he was like a boy. You know? He didn't seem threatening at all. Right? And I know probably the greatest male seducer who ever lived is probably Errol Flynn, the great American, Irish American actor. I think he's Irish, actually. And Errol Flynn supposedly had slept with, I don't know, like 3,000 women.

Lewis Howes 18:48 That's crazy.

Robert Greene 18:49 And he died at the age of 51. I remember when I wrote-

Lewis Howes 18:52 [exhales]

Robert Greene 18:52 ... The Art of Seduction, I was kind of doing the math.

Lewis Howes 18:54 That's crazy. [laughs]

Robert Greene 18:55 And it was like Wilt Chamberlain or something like... It had to be like a woman every other day or something.

Lewis Howes 19:00 That's crazy.

Robert Greene 19:01 And then I wanted to understand what made him so powerful, right? 'Cause he was one of the icons in the, in, in The Art of Seduction. And finally, I found a book written by a woman, an actress who'd been seduced by him, and she kind of revealed to it, uh, all of his secrets. And the key was he made women feel so relaxed. Right? She said just being next to him was like drinking two martinis. "I felt so calm and so relaxed." He had this kind of animal presence where he was very comfortable with himself.

Lewis Howes 19:35 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 19:36 And that was the thing about that Brazilian man. He wasn't defensive at all. He was very, very comfortable with himself. He wasn't arrogant or grandiose, but he just felt comfortable in his own body and his physicality and in who he was. And I think the problem that a lot of people have is they bring their insecurities a- into the seduction realm, and it's very anti-seductive. It kind of breaks the spell. Because when you're insecure and you're trying to, to pick up on a man or a woman, the other person can sense it. Right? You're not saying anything, but they read it in your body language because we're animals that read a lot from non-verbal communication.

Lewis Howes 20:18 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 20:19 And when another person is insecure like that, it means they're thinking about themselves, right? And it's a very off-putting sense.

Lewis Howes 20:26 Interesting.

Robert Greene 20:27 Like, they're more worried about if they say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing, and it makes the other person tense and insecure. I don't know if you've ever had this experience, Lewis, but if you've ever been around a very insecure person, it kind of makes you uncomfortable-

Lewis Howes 20:42 Super uncomfortable

Robert Greene 20:43 ... and awkward.

Lewis Howes 20:43 Yeah, super uncomfortable.

Robert Greene 20:45 So probably the most important lesson I tell people in, in, in the realm of seduction is to be able to project a degree of confidence and calmness and comfort with yourself are probably the most important qualities.

Lewis Howes 20:59 What about when you're in a relationship and you want the relationship to work long term? You want to have... Whether you're getting married and you wanna s- you know, you wanna last, and you don't wanna just hang on to the marriage and be miserable, but you want it to be a happy, thriving existence. Healthy, conscious, loving, to the best of your ability. Should we continue to seduce our partners in committed long-term relationships, or is that not something you do once you're in a relationship?

Robert Greene 21:29 Well, I have a chapter in The Art of Seduction that deals with... I think it's twen- the last chapter. And basically, I think, um, a lot of people complain. It used to be women complained about it, but I think it, it transcends that, where we've been in a relationship for a year-

Lewis Howes 21:46 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 21:47 ... and all the things that... I'm going in hearing the woman talk 'cause I've heard this before.

Lewis Howes 21:51 [laughs]

Robert Greene 21:51 Everything that he used to do, he doesn't do anymore.

Lewis Howes 21:54 Right.

Robert Greene 21:55 He doesn't take me special places. He doesn't make that extra effort. He doesn't buy me special gifts anymore. All the things that he, he did when he wanted to have sex. He was, like, going crazy and doing all these, these things. He was dressing really well. Now he kind of dresses like a slob.

Lewis Howes 22:10 [laughs]

Robert Greene 22:11 He kind of doesn't wanna go out anymore. I hear that more than I hear the opposite, like, "He keeps trying to seduce me, and I'm getting tired of it."

Lewis Howes 22:19 [laughs]

Robert Greene 22:19 I don't hear that too much.

Lewis Howes 22:20 Right.

Robert Greene 22:21 But I hear that he's taking me for granted, right? So it's not like you're practicing the same things that you did when you were trying to get that other person to fall in love. I mean, that would be exhausting, right? And I don't think it would really work.

Lewis Howes 22:35 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 22:35 But it's that you still do some of the effort, right? You still try to surprise the other person. You still have sides of your character that they don't know about. You do things that they've never seen before. You ta- you still take them to places. You still put effort into buying gifts, right? You buy that special gift. You still take effort to take them one night to a special restaurant or to a movie that they, something that they hadn't... You know, like, if you understand, if you listen deeply to that other person and they reveal their secret desires and what they're not getting from the world, just take that in and go, "If I give her a gift or take her to a place that feels that very thing that she said she's not getting," man, that'll have such a powerful effect on that person, even if you've been in a relationship for two or three years.

Lewis Howes 23:28 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 23:28 And I've been in a relationship for, for, for decades, I'm afraid to have to admit.

Lewis Howes 23:31 [laughs]

Robert Greene 23:32 And you still have to go through that process.

Lewis Howes 23:34 Really?

Robert Greene 23:35 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 23:36 What is the questions you can ask to find out someone's secret desires without saying, "What are your secret desires?"

Robert Greene 23:44 You just have to listen. They're, they... Okay, so the main thing is get them to talk about their childhood.

Lewis Howes 23:51 Really?

Robert Greene 23:52 Yeah. I mean-

Lewis Howes 23:53 What w-

Robert Greene 23:53 ... not obviously. Don't go, "Tell me about your father. Did he-

Lewis Howes 23:56 [laughs]

Robert Greene 23:56 ... was he nice to you?" You know, you know, just-

Lewis Howes 23:58 What question can you ask in an organic, relaxed way that would open that up, you think?

Robert Greene 24:03 Well, in the course of a context, you, you can say, um, you know, are... I, I don't know. It's like, a- are, how are you close to your parents? Do, uh, do you see them? Um, and then t- just- Without being, you know, too inquisitive, without making it clear that that's what you're doing, just get them to talk about their early life

Lewis Howes 24:23 Why is that important to figuring out people's secret desires as adults, asking about their childhood?

Robert Greene 24:28 Because it's the key to everything.

Lewis Howes 24:30 Really?

Robert Greene 24:31 In, in, in, in The Laws of Human Nature, I have a chapter about, um, I call it about gender, about the mix of the ma- masculine and feminineness. And there's a concept from the f- great psychologist Jung-

Lewis Howes 24:46 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 24:46 ... called the anima and animus. And he basically says that from a man, from his mother, if you're straight, 'cause it, these things change, it, the man from his mother internalizes an image of women that it'll haunt him for his entire life.

Lewis Howes 25:03 Wow.

Robert Greene 25:03 Right? Because the relationship between a mother and son is very intense. It's not the same as between a mother and a daughter, right? Because she's the opposite gender. You're, you're suckling on her breast. She's the only person you know for the first couple of years. It's very powerful power. And unconsciously, her image slips inside of you. You internalize a part of it, and you're going to have this. You're gonna carry with this. Even if you don't like your mother, and you come to not like her later on, that image is still inside of you, and you're still gonna choose women that have some of those qualities-

Lewis Howes 25:38 Mm

Robert Greene 25:39 ... that, that you would like, you wish your mother had, or that she did have. So those early relationships, the, the woman with her father will tell you so much about, about her, and about her weaknesses, and her vulnerabilities-

Lewis Howes 25:54 Really?

Robert Greene 25:54 ... and what she's missing. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 25:56 So what if they, or if the person-

Robert Greene 25:57 That's, that's one-

Lewis Howes 25:58 Okay

Robert Greene 25:59 ... you know, anything where the person gets excited-

Lewis Howes 26:03 Mm

Robert Greene 26:03 ... right?

Lewis Howes 26:04 Then just take note of that.

Robert Greene 26:05 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 26:06 And start what?

Robert Greene 26:07 If you, if you touch upon a subject, and you see that they, they, they, they get nervous, or they laugh a lot, they're very excited, just put that in your little index there, and go and return to it and notice you've hit upon a chord, a subject that either excites them or gives them like fear or whatever. There's something very powerful going on there, right?

Lewis Howes 26:26 Right.

Robert Greene 26:27 So, um, but, and, and childhood's a very powerful one like that.

Lewis Howes 26:32 So what, what should people be aware of when they're getting into a relationship? What do you think are a few questions they should ask and get answers to to see if it's a potential for a good relationship, or it's gonna be completely off, or they're just wasting their time trying to get into this? Are there any questions you can think of?

Robert Greene 26:56 Well, no, I can't think of questions. It's more like-

Lewis Howes 27:00 Or should it be asking, "How is your parents' relationship?" and this and that?

Robert Greene 27:03 It's not that direct. It's not that verbal. It's not that intellectual.

Lewis Howes 27:08 [laughs]

Robert Greene 27:09 It's more of a, a kind of a spirit meshing-

Lewis Howes 27:12 Ah

Robert Greene 27:12 ... between two people, right? So there are plenty of examples of, of couples that have done extremely well, where they kind of disagree on political issues, although that can be a problem as well. But there's a little bit of tension on that, but they connect on some deeper level. I refer people-

Lewis Howes 27:32 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 27:33 ... to that chapter I was just talking about in The Laws of Human Nature, where there's a level where we connect to people that is not on the surface, that is kind of non-verbal. It has to do with our unconscious. It has to do with things that we've never been able to get from our parents or whatever, and we've kind of have these ideals that have been unmet. And connecting on that level, connecting on the level of spirit, where your emotions, you have ... It's more like your emotions, um, vi- mesh together well than your ideas. Like, there's, you know?

Lewis Howes 28:10 Yes.

Robert Greene 28:10 And, um, because if that other person is, is incredibly, um, dramatic and out there, and, you know, that's not something you can ... Even though they have the similar ideas to you, it's gonna grate on your nerves, you know?

Lewis Howes 28:28 I saw a post recently, [clears throat] excuse me, about something like, I'm gonna mess this up, but something like, "You don't, you don't marry the person. You marry the person's, like, trauma. You marry their, you know, in-laws' trauma."

Robert Greene 28:42 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 28:42 "You marry, like, what they haven't healed yet. You marry their emotional-"

Robert Greene 28:46 Yeah

Lewis Howes 28:46 ... um, you know, their relationship to certain things. You're, you're marrying the emotions-

Robert Greene 28:51 Yeah

Lewis Howes 28:51 ... of the person, really.

Robert Greene 28:53 Yes, exactly.

Lewis Howes 28:54 And being aware, like, just because they look great, and just because we have fun together certain times-

Robert Greene 28:59 Right

Lewis Howes 28:59 ... you're really marrying all the other stuff along with it.

Robert Greene 29:01 Right. And you won't find that out right away.

Lewis Howes 29:03 Because they're good at hiding it.

Robert Greene 29:04 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 29:04 Right? They're good at, like, reserving that until six months, a year, two years later.

Robert Greene 29:09 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 29:09 Right?

Robert Greene 29:09 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 29:10 So it's making sure that your emotions mesh well over your ideals. Is that what I'm hearing?

Robert Greene 29:16 Over the intellectual part, over just-

Lewis Howes 29:18 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 29:18 ... the superficial fact that you both vote Democratic or Republican or that you both like this movie director. I mean, certain tastes that mesh are important, but I don't think ... There has to be kind of a charge between you, a kind of, something-

Lewis Howes 29:34 Mm

Robert Greene 29:34 ... that goes on underneath the surface, that has nothing to do with just words or kind of superficial things, you know? Something deep, sit-

Lewis Howes 29:44 Spiritual.

Robert Greene 29:45 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 29:45 Because sometimes people will think, "Oh, we have all these things in common. We have this connection. This is a great match." But then they don't experience the emotional or spiritual level.

Robert Greene 29:56 Right.

Lewis Howes 29:56 And then that comes out later, and you're like, "Well, we are from the same city, and we went to the same school, and we-

Robert Greene 30:01 Yeah

Lewis Howes 30:01 ... voted and whatever."

Robert Greene 30:02 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 30:03 "And we have similar friends, and we like to go to baseball games."

Robert Greene 30:05 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 30:06 But if there's not that spiritual or emotional meshing-

Robert Greene 30:09 Well, you just, you hit ... Your, your idea was very, is very apt. You are marrying the other person's emotions, right? And so that's not something that you see right away, and you could love the same movies. You can have all these other things, but if that part isn't connecting on the right l- way, if, if they're revealing something that's gonna really drive you crazy after several months or years-

Lewis Howes 30:29 Mm

Robert Greene 30:29 ... doesn't matter about how well your ideas are similar.

Lewis Howes 30:33 What if your ideas are amazing together, the sexual connection is incredible, but the emotional level is not in sync? Like?

Robert Greene 30:44 Well, you know, it's hard to generalize.

Lewis Howes 30:46 Yes.

Robert Greene 30:47 You know, have a relationship, it'll probably last just a few weeks or a couple months, you know? It'll be hard to build a relationship where you don't connect on this kind of deeper level.

Lewis Howes 30:57 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 30:57 But that's not to say that it doesn't happen, and it isn't to say that people can't change, right? So, um, you know, you might discover after five years that this person has qualities that kind of get on your nerves a little bit. You wish you had seen them earlier. But by then, you've fallen in love with them.

Lewis Howes 31:18 Right.

Robert Greene 31:19 And you go, "You know, I, I can appreciate their weaknesses. I can love their weaknesses. I can get over it." It still kind of irritates them.

Lewis Howes 31:27 [laughs]

Robert Greene 31:28 Me, it still irritates me, but there's something deeper. I actually really love this person, and even their flaws are lovable. And that happens, right?

Lewis Howes 31:37 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 31:37 So it's hard to generalize about everything, and you can change. You can, like, see that maybe I'm overreacting. Maybe I'm too cold and rational, and they're too dramatic. And maybe I, I can learn from her or him-

Lewis Howes 31:50 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 31:51 ... and become more like them. People change, and you... That's the great thing about a great relationship, is the ability for the other person to change you as well.

Lewis Howes 31:59 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 32:00 Right?

Lewis Howes 32:00 To influence you. Yeah.

Robert Greene 32:01 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 32:01 How long have you been in your relationship now?

Robert Greene 32:04 Uh, it's over 20 years.

Lewis Howes 32:05 Over 20 years.

Robert Greene 32:07 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 32:07 What do you wish you knew about, you know, being in a long-term relationship like this 20 years ago? Is there anything you would have done differently on your end, or anything that you would wish you would have known to... I don't know. It seems like it's been a happy, healthy relationship for it to last that long.

Robert Greene 32:25 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 32:25 But is there anything you wish you would have knew earlier, Robert, you know, at that point before getting into the relationship?

Robert Greene 32:32 You mean, and not have the relationship, or what?

Lewis Howes 32:34 No, in being in the relationship, like things that you could have... I don't know. It's things you could have eliminated, or things that you could have done differently yourself to make it even greater, or wish you would have, like, solved things before challenges came up for you, if they did come up.

Robert Greene 32:50 Well, it's, it's-

Lewis Howes 32:51 Or have you just been, like, the king of relationships? [laughs]

Robert Greene 32:53 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, not at all. I, as I s- as I've made very clear, I have got my own problems, my own-

Lewis Howes 32:59 Yeah

Robert Greene 32:59 ... flaws, you know? Um, no, I mean, um, being more forgiving would have probably helped.

Lewis Howes 33:08 Mm.

Robert Greene 33:08 You know? Um, I'm, I can be kind of rigid and kind of stubborn, thinking I know the right way all the time.

Lewis Howes 33:18 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 33:19 And I felt like, you know, she had certain flaws that were really too strong, and if I h- could just like, you know, go with them and say that, "I have flaws as well," and be a little more humble, and be more forgiving of her, I think that would have helped.

Lewis Howes 33:37 Yeah.

Robert Greene 33:37 You know? And that's not, that's not easy all the time.

Lewis Howes 33:40 Mm-hmm. How important is it, do you think, being in a healing process before entering a new relationship, as opposed to just jumping into a relationship without the process of reflection, self-awareness, looking at what pain has caused you in your past that you haven't forgiven or healed?

Robert Greene 33:58 It's very, very important.

Lewis Howes 34:00 Yeah.

Robert Greene 34:00 Because, um, oftentimes your choices with a partner occur for reasons that you're not aware of.

Lewis Howes 34:06 Really?

Robert Greene 34:07 And I talked about an example in The Laws of Human Nature that's sort of a classic case in therapy, where this man had come to a therapist, and he had a series of, like, 10 very sh- powerful, emotional relationships. And each time, he broke it off. And he al- he would say, you know, "She d- she betrayed me here. She did... I found out that this was happening, and, and, and I, and I no longer loved her," on and on and on.

Lewis Howes 34:35 Hmm.

Robert Greene 34:36 And the therapist started to go into his early childhood, and he discovered that he had a mother, this man, who was very cold, wasn't very loving to him. And he had a sense... And this is what happens to children, it happens to boys. When the mother is like that, you feel abandoned. You don't feel like it's your fault. I'm sorry. You don't feel like it's their fault. You feel like something's wrong with you, and they have chosen to abandon you.

Lewis Howes 35:02 Hmm.

Robert Greene 35:03 And it's, it scars you. It scars that three-year-old in a way that he'll never get over. And so what his pattern was, each time he got in a relationship, before the woman could begin to maybe hurt him and abandon him, he was the one doing the abandoning. It gave him a sense of power and control.

Lewis Howes 35:22 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 35:22 It was like he was redoing the mother relationship, where he was the one abandoning and not being abandoned. He was not aware of this at all. He'd gone through 35 years of his life in all of these relationships, probably choosing women that would, that kind of mirrored that early relationship as well, but that he could then have, abandon them so he could have this feeling of power. Now, you might not be having something so dramatic going on in your life, but you will have patterns like that, and I know I've had patterns like that.

Lewis Howes 35:52 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 35:52 And I've analyzed them, and I've become aware of them. And so if you've been in a very bruising, kind of damaging relationship, which we've all had, if you've been alive for enough years, right? It is absolutely essential that you step back and analyze it. Because kind of negative relationships and, and, and traumas like that will reveal a lot of truths about yourself. They will, you will tend to blame the other person-

Lewis Howes 36:20 Hmm

Robert Greene 36:21 ... for everything, but you need to look at yourself and see the patterns that are making you fall for people like that, right?

Lewis Howes 36:27 You getting into those relationships over and over again.

Robert Greene 36:30 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 36:32 So what would it look like when you start the healing process or the awareness process of, "Okay, I'm the one who's responsible for this pattern. I'm the common denominator of all these relationships, so there's, you know, partially me to be responsible for." What would it feel like to start the healing process, and what would that next relationship look like when you make a commitment? Would it just feel different? Would it feel like, "Oh, this is very healthy"? How would that look, do you think?

Robert Greene 37:02 Well, there's a lot of problems. It's not easy.

Lewis Howes 37:04 Yeah.

Robert Greene 37:05 And the, and the, and the main problem, Lewis, is believe it or not, some of those early, um, dysfunctional relationships with your parents are charged with this kind of sexual energy.

Lewis Howes 37:18 Really?

Robert Greene 37:19 Yeah. And so you'll find yourself attracted to the very man or woman who's going to hurt you, whereas the man or woman who's good for you, there's no kind of sexual charge because... And this isn't everybody. This is may- maybe a third. I don't know what the percentage is. Don't quote me.

Lewis Howes 37:37 Sure, sure.

Robert Greene 37:38 But you are actually more attracted to the person that has these damaged qualities-

Lewis Howes 37:44 Why is that?

Robert Greene 37:45 ... because you get to relive some of those early traumas, right? And so the problem that will happen, I, I can see this in my own life as well, that the person who is good for you, that's actually caring, that will mesh with you, that physical charge maybe isn't as strong, right? And that's a problem, right? Because you want to have that element. But you need to be aware of this. You need to be aware of the fact that some of the people that you're most attracted to, you're not attracted to just because the, of their sexy body or whatever it is. There's also some kind of issues you haven't worked out from your early childhood that are at play in that relationship and that are gonna cause you a lot of pain.

Lewis Howes 38:26 Why does that turn us on sexually, do you think? Why is the human brain turned on by ca- drama and, you know, unhealthy relationships? [laughs] Like, why is that?

Robert Greene 38:38 Well, um, you know, I would be a, a multibillionaire by now if-

Lewis Howes 38:42 [laughs]

Robert Greene 38:42 ... I could answer those questions.

Lewis Howes 38:44 Yes.

Robert Greene 38:44 I'd be the doc- the ultimate doctor of love. But I can say this, that when you're a child, you're two or three years old, you know, and we're talking about entering the spirit, try and enter the spirit of the three-year-old Lewis Howes. You're very vulnerable. You're very weak, right? You're at the mercy-

Lewis Howes 39:00 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 39:00 ... of this person who's very powerful, your mother and also your father. It depends on what, you know. You're at their mercy, right? And you're open to them. You depend on them for so much. So the emotional energy that you are putting onto them is extremely powerful.

Lewis Howes 39:17 Wow.

Robert Greene 39:17 More powerful than any other relationship you'll have in your life, and you're not aware of it. And so it's mesh- it meshes with all these other kind of physical, um, impulses and desires that you have because a child who's two or three years old is actually still having, like, sexual impulses very early on. It's kind of creating a pattern of attraction that you are very rarely aware of.

Lewis Howes 39:41 Hmm.

Robert Greene 39:42 It's not to say everybody is like that, but it's a pretty common denominator that, you know, if you have, for instance, a very narcissistic mother, right, who was more interested in herself than in you, you're going to be attracted to narcissistic women.

Lewis Howes 39:58 [inhales] If you're a man.

Robert Greene 40:00 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 40:00 Yeah, gotcha. Wow.

Robert Greene 40:02 Yeah. Um, and you're not aware of it, and you know, it creates this, a lot of pain for you, right? Um, so you've gotta go through a process. It- it's kind of like there, there's the, there's the ancient Greek play of Oedipus.

Lewis Howes 40:20 Wow.

Robert Greene 40:21 Right? I don't know if you're... He, um, he married his... He killed his father, and then he ended up marrying his mother.

Lewis Howes 40:31 That's crazy.

Robert Greene 40:32 Yeah, you know. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 40:33 [laughs]

Robert Greene 40:33 That's where we get the Oedipus complex from, right? And he never realizes it until he's, like, in his late 30s and, and he's gone through this, his whole career as the lead king of this, Thebes. And then suddenly he's made aware of it through various things that happen, right? And it's like, "Oh, my God. Really? I've done all that? This is what my life is?" And he's so overwhelmed that he cuts his eyes out, and he blinds himself-

Lewis Howes 41:02 Pff

Robert Greene 41:02 ... as proof of, you know, how blind he was in life.

Lewis Howes 41:04 Wow.

Robert Greene 41:05 And so the Greeks are saying in that play that we're all kind of blind. Fate kind of pushes us around, and we're not even aware of it. And the moment of feeling enlightened about becoming aware of some of these patterns in your childhood is actually a great moment. It's very painful, but it's very powerful, you know? [sighs] Sorry. I didn't mean to take it-

Lewis Howes 41:30 It's inspiring

Robert Greene 41:30 ... I didn't mean to just take it to such a dark place.

Lewis Howes 41:31 No, I, I love this.

Robert Greene 41:32 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 41:34 Let's say someone has been through a, a, a tough breakup. And maybe this is their first breakup they've gone through that was tough, a tough relationship, or this is a pattern. This is their third or fifth relationship in 10 years that's been like, "You know, what's wrong with me?" What would you say would be the next th- three things they should focus on after the breakup, on how to find that awareness and open their eyes, on how to start, you know, observing men or women in a different way before they get so committed and go all in and start fantasizing about how amazing they are? What would you say are three things they could do before entering another relationship?

Robert Greene 42:15 Well, first of all, to become acquainted with yourself and to see, know who you are and know the source of your own desires. So if it's your very first relationship, it's a little hard to see patterns, but you can begin to see patterns of the kind of person that you're attracted to after the third or fourth time, and to analyze that and to be aware of it. Now, if, you know, if, you're, you're... Some people will say, "Well, won't that kind of ruin the whole relationship game, that I'm sp- analyze myself? That seems so unseductive," et cetera. And you know, if you're in your 20s and, and you're, you're, you're healthy and you're young- Maybe it doesn't matter so much.

Lewis Howes 42:56 Right.

Robert Greene 42:56 You know, you're gonna have some painful moments, but you're having a lot of fun. Okay, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna, you know, rain on that parade. But eventually you're not gonna be single. You're gonna be in your late 20s, you're gonna be in your early 30s, and the series of bad relationships are gonna start wearing on you. They're gonna start creating trauma, and they'll start infecting you with this kind of negati- this kind of defensiveness.

Lewis Howes 43:20 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 43:21 Where every time you meet someone, you're worried that they're gonna hurt you, and you can't, like, you know, open yourself up to them, right? So you've gotta, as early as possible, understand your own patterns. Why am I attracted to this person? Just simply ask that, that question, right? It's, you know, like, what was it about him or her that attracted me to that person?

Lewis Howes 43:46 Mm.

Robert Greene 43:46 You know? Is there something I'm not thinking about? Could I have s- foreseen some of the darker side of this person earlier on?

Lewis Howes 43:55 Yes. Yes.

Robert Greene 43:56 Most obviously. Could I have seen the fact that he could be someone who could be kind of cold and abusive? Yes. You know, he... S- oftentimes a man who is like that will, will love-bomb the woman. He'll overwhelm them with emotion so they get confused and they're not aware of it. That also is a sign when, when a man overwhelms you in the first two days with so much attention-

Lewis Howes 44:20 Wow

Robert Greene 44:21 ... that he's hiding something dark. But don't look at it as if it's always the other person. See your own temptation, why you give in to someone like that, why you are attracted to people like that, right?

Lewis Howes 44:34 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 44:35 Go through that process. And then say, "All right. What are the qualities that I really, really want? What is important for me that I'm not, that I'm not getting from this p- person?" You know? The sex is great, but there are other things that are more important, like validation, like the other person cares about my work and about my career. They're not just interested in me as a physical presence, but they actually show interest-

Lewis Howes 45:02 Mm

Robert Greene 45:03 ... in my future, right?

Lewis Howes 45:04 Yes.

Robert Greene 45:05 What are these things that I need-

Lewis Howes 45:07 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 45:07 ... that are very important to me that I didn't get in that last relationship, right?

Lewis Howes 45:11 Yes.

Robert Greene 45:12 Who am I, right? That's just the question. Who am I? What are my deepest needs, and what are my dark patterns, right?

Lewis Howes 45:18 Yes.

Robert Greene 45:19 And then to go through a process of if I- We talked about this earlier. If I now become all defensive and closed, and if I'm, like, always judging the person, you know, "Oh, he's not right for me. Oh, she's not," you know, da, da, da, da, da, b- because you're afraid of being hurt again.

Lewis Howes 45:37 That last person has power over you still.

Robert Greene 45:39 Yeah, they, they defeated you. They conquered your spirit.

Lewis Howes 45:41 Wow.

Robert Greene 45:42 So you can't be afraid to have some more of that pain again, right? You have to open yourself up a little bit here.

Lewis Howes 45:51 Yep.

Robert Greene 45:52 And if you do that, and you're hurt again, at least you can say that that person who hurt me earlier on has no more power over me, you know?

Lewis Howes 46:02 Yes.

Robert Greene 46:02 I'm still able to fall in love. I'm still able to let myse- open myself up to another person.

Lewis Howes 46:08 Yes.

Robert Greene 46:08 It's incredibly important to be able to feel vulnerable to another person. It's, it's a deep human need. It goes back to our childhood. It's part of our human nature, and if you close yourself off, it's not only gonna affect your romantic relationships. It's gonna affect you in work and everything.

Lewis Howes 46:26 Yeah, so don't jump into another relationship if you're closed off is what I'm hearing you say. Like, be willing to heal that part or process it and-

Robert Greene 46:33 And then, and then one last thing. I-

Lewis Howes 46:35 Yes.

Robert Greene 46:35 You asked for three. Those were two.

Lewis Howes 46:36 Yes.

Robert Greene 46:37 I gave you the third. The third is learn to judge people by their character.

Lewis Howes 46:42 So true.

Robert Greene 46:42 All right? So not the superficial charm and smiles and all the great stuff that they're able to fake, but who they are deep inside, right? You know, do they have some of these strong character traits? Can they take criticism? Man, you have no idea that that is such an important quality-

Lewis Howes 47:03 Mm

Robert Greene 47:03 ... in a relationship.

Lewis Howes 47:04 Taking criticism?

Robert Greene 47:05 Yeah. If that other person cannot take any kind of criticism, how can you be in a relationship with them? And they'll make you... They find ways to, to make you pay for, for criticizing them. They, they get passive-aggressive. They get cold. "Oh, I'm never gonna do that again." You can't be in a relationship.

Lewis Howes 47:22 Right.

Robert Greene 47:22 So judge someone like that. Can they take criticism? Can they deal with moments of stress? Can they get outside of themselves and think about me? You know, think about how they are in a conversation. Do they hear what you're saying? Do they come back with things that reveal the fact that they've been listening to you, that they picked up signals from you? Get inside them. Get inside their character, and be able to judge them on that basis as opposed to their, their sexy veneer that they have. So those would be the three things.

Lewis Howes 47:54 Those are powerful. What's your thoughts on relationships and money? And should we be focusing on money as a factor in relationships? Because it seems to me like a lot of people end relationships with money problems, or it's one of the main factors.

Robert Greene 48:11 You mean there's an inequality between the two?

Lewis Howes 48:13 Inequality or just, like, the value of money. If someone sees, uh, spending money in a certain way, another person sees it in a different way. It's just like the topic of money seems to mess with people. How do we develop seduction with money in, in- involved in a relationship?

Robert Greene 48:32 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 48:32 And how do we stay in a healthy relationship and not allow money to ruin the relationship?

Robert Greene 48:37 Well, money isn't just money.

Lewis Howes 48:40 Mm.

Robert Greene 48:40 Money is a sign. Money is something that has psychology, has other things attached to it. So let's just say it's a woman who is finding herself losing her attraction to a man because he's not making any money, right? That could be because it's a sign that he doesn't have enough ambition, he doesn't have enough drive. Or it could be a sign that he's just finding himself, and eventually he'll, he'll, he'll discover it. But you, you kind of turned off a, a lot of women, and I think, you know, yeah, it's mostly women, by the fact that this person doesn't have any drive, has no ambition. They're not trying to make something of their life, right? And so it's not about the money that they're... It's the fact that there's something missing in them, right? That kind of masculine energy-

Lewis Howes 49:30 Mm

Robert Greene 49:30 ... such as masculine. Women have great drive to make money as well. I don't mean to put it that way. But that kind of drive, that energy that makes them wanna get ahead-

Lewis Howes 49:37 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 49:38 ... can be very seductive and very powerful.

Lewis Howes 49:40 That's powerful for women to see that in men.

Robert Greene 49:42 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 49:43 Yeah.

Robert Greene 49:43 And to re- se- sense that he's just kind of a slacker.

Lewis Howes 49:48 [laughs]

Robert Greene 49:49 Okay, maybe he's got good qualities, maybe he's a wonderful person, and that's fine. And then the money isn't a problem, you don't care. But maybe what, if you do care, it's because it reveals something about their character, right?

Lewis Howes 50:01 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 50:02 The other thing is generosity in a relationship is very important, right? It's not just giving money, but it's also giving your energy, giving your time to the other person. So a lot of m- a classic ex- um, uh, turn-off that men will do is that they're, they're not so generous with money, time, attention, et cetera.

Lewis Howes 50:25 Hmm.

Robert Greene 50:26 And it's a sign of something closed inside of them. So, you know, they don't wanna pay for a meal, they don't wanna pay for something, they don't wanna spend money on a, on a, on a nice gift or whatever. It's not the money, it's the sign that someone isn't generous in their spirit, in their heart. They're not willing to take risks.

Lewis Howes 50:45 Hmm.

Robert Greene 50:46 Right? That's, that'd be another thing that the lack of money will say. You know, to start a business and fail would not be such a bad, I don't think would be such a turn-off, as opposed to never starting a business. As to always talking about, "Oh, I could have been great, I could have done this," but never trying. 'Cause it reveals a lack of, of, of security about yourself and confidence. 'Cause confidence is a key quality.

Lewis Howes 51:11 Hmm.

Robert Greene 51:12 So I think money is often a sign of something else, a- another problem. It's revealing something about their character, you know? I mean, it could be he's, he or she isn't pulling in their weight, and that, that's an issue.

Lewis Howes 51:26 Ah.

Robert Greene 51:26 Yeah, I can s- and I, and I kind of resent that.

Lewis Howes 51:28 Right.

Robert Greene 51:29 But that's not about the money, that's about the other person not caring enough to pull their weight-

Lewis Howes 51:35 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 51:35 ... or to not thinking about the other person's needs.

Lewis Howes 51:38 It's what's underneath the money.

Robert Greene 51:39 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 51:39 Yeah.

Robert Greene 51:39 I think so.

Lewis Howes 51:41 You mentioned confidence for a second. How does, um, how much does someone lacking confidence affect their ability to seduce and maintain a level of seduction in a long-term relationship?

Robert Greene 51:56 Well, confidence is, is extremely important. I mean, it can border, it can go off into grandiosity, and arrogance, and hubris, and that can be a turn-off. But in general, most people, men and women, make the mistake by not having enough confidence.

Lewis Howes 52:12 Really, not enough.

Robert Greene 52:13 By being insecure. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 52:14 It's rather, it's better to reign someone's confidence down a little bit than to have none at all, right? It's like it's better to have more of it-

Robert Greene 52:23 Yeah

Lewis Howes 52:23 ... and be like, "Okay, your ego's getting out of control. Let's take it down a little bit."

Robert Greene 52:27 Yeah, yeah.

Lewis Howes 52:28 Than like, "I have no confidence at all."

Robert Greene 52:30 Well, the fact that you feel confident about yourself is very seductive in itself.

Lewis Howes 52:36 Hmm.

Robert Greene 52:36 It has an attractive power, you know? I talk in The Art of Seduction of charisma. I have a whole chapter on, on the charismatic and the origin of charisma. And what I define charisma is there's a person who has a kind of inner light inside of them. They're so confident that they kind of glow with that confidence, that their words are kind of revealing it, their eyes are glowing, their gestures are glowing, and they're very charismatic. It could be a Malcolm X, could be a Marilyn Monroe, could be a John F. Kennedy, it could be a Mick Jagger, whomever, right? We sense this incredible confidence in this power, and it's like a l- inner lantern that just makes everything glow, and we are so attracted to that. That's what charisma is. Why are we attracted to it? Because we envy people who have that kind of confidence. We wish we could have that, and we find it very compelling. We want to know them. We think that some of it perhaps will rub off on us. I know in working with 50 Cent, I wrote a book with him, this guy is very charismatic.

Lewis Howes 53:44 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 53:45 He's extremely seductive. He's one of those men that I mentioned earlier who's, like, in that pantheon of great seducers, and I've seen him up front doing his seduction.

Lewis Howes 53:54 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 53:54 So I know. I speak from, from experience.

Lewis Howes 53:56 [laughs]

Robert Greene 53:57 Um, and he has this incredible charisma, this insane confidence. It's not in what he says, it's not in his eloquence, it's just in how he carries himself.

Lewis Howes 54:08 Hmm.

Robert Greene 54:08 Right? And it can be a little bit cocky sometimes if it's all seen from him, but man, it is so seductive, and women go crazy over things like that, and men will go crazy over that in women as well. So confidence is extremely important in the, in the realm of seduction. You can almost not go wrong with it. Yes, you can border on, on being insane and grandiose.

Lewis Howes 54:30 Yeah.

Robert Greene 54:31 But the feeling of that person is comfortable and confident, and has that kind of inner s- you know, force, energy that's coming up from, from somewhere they don't know, is very powerful and very compelling. So, um-

Lewis Howes 54:46 Hmm

Robert Greene 54:47 ... and the, and the lack of confidence is extremely anti-seductive.

Lewis Howes 54:50 It is, very. It'll probably hurt the relationship if your partner is always lacking confidence in themselves. It doesn't make you feel attracted to them, right?

Robert Greene 54:59 Right.

Lewis Howes 55:00 So what would you say if someone's been through a break after, breakup after breakup, or even just one bad breakup, and they feel heartbroken or closed off? How can they reclaim that confidence? What would you say to that person if they've lost confidence, on how to reclaim it themselves? And also, if your partner has lost confidence, and you're in a long-term relationship, how can you help someone gain confidence in a relationship? So individually, how do you reclaim it, and then your partner is lacking it.

Robert Greene 55:30 Well, there- there's several ways to answer that. I mean, you know, seduction is- is- is almost like a skill. It's almost like being able to hit a baseball and bat 300.

Lewis Howes 55:42 Yes.

Robert Greene 55:43 So the best thing you can do after a bad relationship is go back in the game, and try and- and- and- and meet other women and- and- and go back in and- and- and if you fail, to have a kind of a light attitude and not care.

Lewis Howes 55:56 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 55:57 But closing yourself off will make it harder, each time harder, to get outside of yourself, right?

Lewis Howes 56:03 Yes.

Robert Greene 56:03 I can remember one time, I was in New York. I was young, I was maybe 24. I was on the subway, and I'd just received some great news about my career, about this thing that I had written, right?

Lewis Howes 56:18 24, yep.

Robert Greene 56:19 Yeah. And I was on the subway going in somewhere in Manhattan, and all of a sudden, like, these- these women were looking at me. And I, you know, I'm not- I'm not- I'm not saying... Th- that never usually happens.

Lewis Howes 56:31 Right, right.

Robert Greene 56:31 Let's put it that way.

Lewis Howes 56:32 Yeah, yeah.

Robert Greene 56:32 So I'm not bragging.

Lewis Howes 56:33 Yes.

Robert Greene 56:34 What's going on here? Wow. This, you know, this one really attractive woman. What's going on here? And then I- I- I can never f- I can't forget that moment. It stuck out in my mind so strongly. Like, there's this energy that I had that they were picking up, and they were sensing it, and they were attracted to it. I didn't say anything. I just heard... It wasn't on the... We didn't have a phone then. I just had heard it, and I was really happy, in a great mood. But I'm certain that that was-

Lewis Howes 56:58 Mm

Robert Greene 56:58 ... that energy was kind of projecting itself onto other people.

Lewis Howes 57:03 Yes.

Robert Greene 57:03 So seduction is a skill, and getting out there and trying your hand at- at meeting other women and going through the process, you'll learn about yourself. You'll- you won't take things... Don't try and take things so personally.

Lewis Howes 57:16 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 57:16 Get back in the game. By being defensive and going into your shell and saying, "Oh, I don't wanna get hurt again," you're gonna make it harder each time to get out of that shell.

Lewis Howes 57:26 Yes.

Robert Greene 57:27 You know? So, um, the, you know, that other gender is kind of mysterious to us.

Lewis Howes 57:35 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 57:35 We don't really know them.

Lewis Howes 57:37 Right. [laughs]

Robert Greene 57:37 Right?

Lewis Howes 57:37 Right, right.

Robert Greene 57:38 They have a different world, a different personality, right?

Lewis Howes 57:41 Yes.

Robert Greene 57:42 But the more you interact with the, with women or men, the more you can kind of get a sense of what drives them and motivates. You can't ever totally understand them. A man can never, ever com- ever-

Lewis Howes 57:54 Mm

Robert Greene 57:54 ... understand a woman. There's always a big mystery there, eventually.

Lewis Howes 57:57 Yes.

Robert Greene 57:57 And thank God there is. But to the degree that you interact with women or men in any situation, you're kind of learning about them. You're getting more comfortable with them, right?

Lewis Howes 58:08 Yes.

Robert Greene 58:08 So a lot of great male seducers had sisters.

Lewis Howes 58:12 Hmm.

Robert Greene 58:13 And a lot of great female seductresses had brothers.

Lewis Howes 58:16 Interesting.

Robert Greene 58:17 They grew very comfortable with that male or female presence, right?

Lewis Howes 58:21 And they might have been around the- the sister's friends or the-

Robert Greene 58:25 Yeah

Lewis Howes 58:25 ... the woman might have been around their brother's guy friends-

Robert Greene 58:28 Yeah

Lewis Howes 58:28 ... and been around that energy more.

Robert Greene 58:29 Right.

Lewis Howes 58:30 That's interesting.

Robert Greene 58:31 So if you had just brothers, you know, women seem kind of scary or weird.

Lewis Howes 58:36 Mm.

Robert Greene 58:36 What do they want, you know? And this... And- and the opposite is true.

Lewis Howes 58:39 Yeah.

Robert Greene 58:40 So interacting, getting outside yourself, interacting with women, you'll get to feel more confident. You'll learn more, and you'll be more comfortable in their presence. So don't go into a shell. That's the main thing.

Lewis Howes 58:52 That's the key. And what about... Did you have something else?

Robert Greene 58:55 No, you had a second part.

Lewis Howes 58:56 What about if your partner, you're in a relationship for 10 years, and whatever reason, your partner, and a woman, is lacking confidence. They're insecure, they're doubting themselves over and over. What could the p- other partner do to help them reclaim their confidence? Or is that not something you can do?

Robert Greene 59:16 No, you can do that. Um, you can find what it is that they need validation about. And you can-

Lewis Howes 59:24 Mm

Robert Greene 59:24 ... you know, give them pep talks, and make it clear to them. This is the most important thing, Lewis. Make it clear to them that you still have confidence in them.

Lewis Howes 59:36 Ooh.

Robert Greene 59:36 You haven't lost it. Because the sense that that other person is losing faith in you and your abilities is deadly.

Lewis Howes 59:43 That's big.

Robert Greene 59:44 So if you care about that person, and you don't want to see them go down the drain with their insecurities, make it clear that you haven't lost faith in them, and show it to them in certain ways.

Lewis Howes 59:54 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 59:55 You know, whatever it is that they're worried about, show them that you still believe it's, that they can accomplish something. You know, the relationship I've been in, it predates The 48 Laws of Power just- just barely, right?

Lewis Howes 1:00:08 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 1:00:09 And before The 48 Laws of Power, I was a nobody. I had no money. I had no success. I was very frustrated. I was depressed.

Lewis Howes 1:00:18 Really?

Robert Greene 1:00:18 I was very depressed, even bordering on suicidal.

Lewis Howes 1:00:21 Wow.

Robert Greene 1:00:22 I was 37. I wasn't going... Didn't bother her. She had faith in me. She had confidence in me, right? She saw that something probably would happen. And, you know-

Lewis Howes 1:00:32 Wow

Robert Greene 1:00:32 ... and then it did with the 48 laws. But, you know, I could sense that. She could sense that there was something I could do, right? So she kept boosting me about my writing and about my career. So what is it that that person is insecure about? Boost them up. Make them feel like you haven't lost faith in them, and that will be almost enough in- in itself.

Lewis Howes 1:00:55 Robert, uh, like always, I've got one final question for you.

Robert Greene 1:00:58 Oh, yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:00:58 But like always, I wanna acknowledge you for being my first ever guest on The School of Greatness, for always showing up, and, uh, being consistent in your life since I've known you in serving people. You're using your uniqueness, your talent, your gifts, your energy to create-

1:01:16 ... beautiful pieces of art that serve and help people, and I think it's incredible that you continue to show up and do this. You don't have to anymore, but you keep doing it. Even when you have your own personal challenges that you're facing, you continue to show up to serve. So I acknowledge you for, for always being the example, even during challenging times for yourself. It's a beautiful thing to see, and I, and I appreciate your friendship.

Robert Greene 1:01:41 Thank you, Lewis.

Lewis Howes 1:01:41 Of course.

Robert Greene 1:01:42 I feel likewise.

Lewis Howes 1:01:42 Of course.

Robert Greene 1:01:43 I have very fond memories of that first time you came to my-

Lewis Howes 1:01:45 First time at your house

Robert Greene 1:01:46 ... your little recording device.

Lewis Howes 1:01:48 [laughs]

Robert Greene 1:01:49 You didn't know really what you were doing so much.

Lewis Howes 1:01:51 Zero idea. You gave me an opportunity. You s- you said, "Hey, I'll interview you."

Robert Greene 1:01:54 But I, I liked you, I liked your energy.

Lewis Howes 1:01:56 Exactly.

Robert Greene 1:01:57 And I could see that you were g- something was gonna ha- come from this.

Lewis Howes 1:02:01 Yeah. Yeah.

Robert Greene 1:02:02 I could sense it.

Lewis Howes 1:02:02 And sometimes when, when you don't know what's gonna happen sometimes, but you, you have an enthusiasm-

Robert Greene 1:02:06 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:02:06 ... and an appreciation and a gratitude, and you're-

Robert Greene 1:02:09 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:02:09 ... have an energy.

Robert Greene 1:02:10 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:02:11 Hopefully good things can happen.

Robert Greene 1:02:12 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:02:13 So I appreciate you being the first one. But I think I also was like, "Hey, listen, I wanna sell a bunch of books of yours, and we're gonna do this thing."

Robert Greene 1:02:19 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:02:19 And I was excited about selling books for you. And, um, you sh- you always, I think it's always important to create a win-win-

Robert Greene 1:02:25 Sure

Lewis Howes 1:02:25 ... you know, experience, so. But I appreciate you taking the chance on me launching the podcast with you as the first interview.

Robert Greene 1:02:31 Oh, no, no, no. I, I enjoyed it. It was very memorable.

Lewis Howes 1:02:33 Yes, yes. Um, my final question is what's your definition of greatness?

Robert Greene 1:02:39 My definition of greatness is kind of what I've talked about before. Um, it's realizing your potential-

Lewis Howes 1:02:49 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 1:02:49 ... to some degree. So we may not realize 100% of our potential. I certainly haven't realized 100% of my potential. There are things I probably could have done o- other, more of. But if your, if your potential is to raise a great family and to raise really great kids, and you've done it, that's greatness.

Lewis Howes 1:03:10 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 1:03:11 If your potential is to, is to just build something, however small it is, and you realized it and you p- you realize 50, 60% of your potential, that is greatness.

Lewis Howes 1:03:23 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 1:03:24 And then you can, you can go to bed at night feeling good and pou- and, and proud of yourself, right?

Lewis Howes 1:03:30 Yes.

Robert Greene 1:03:30 So a lot of it is, is it's not the money that matters, it's not the attention that matters, it's the inner feeling you have that you have accomplished something, that you have fulfilled your potential, that you have accomplished some of the dreams that you had as a child for yourself-

Lewis Howes 1:03:48 Right

Robert Greene 1:03:48 ... right? And to, to have that sense that I have done that, that I have wr- wrote this book, that I created this business, that I started this podcast, that's greatness to me.

Lewis Howes 1:04:01 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 1:04:02 Of course, there are levels of greatness, right? But that, that, that's enough for me as, as well, just-

Lewis Howes 1:04:08 Yeah

Robert Greene 1:04:09 ... the sense that, um, I was born with this potential, and I worked, and I realized some of my gifts. I think that's, that's an amazing thing. That's greatness for me.

Lewis Howes 1:04:19 Mm. Robert Greene, thank you so much. Appreciate your time.

Robert Greene 1:04:22 Certainly.

Lewis Howes 1:04:22 If you enjoyed that interview, then I know you'll love what we have coming up right now. We choose to be in prison and suffer with poor conditions and poor treatment, but we c- can we also choose to be out of suffering in our mind and in our heart, even if there's scarcity, even if there's uncertainty, even if there's physical abuse or emotional abuse? Can we still try to not be in suffering? Or do you feel like there's nothing we can do sometimes?

Speaker 1:04:49 It's a both end, right?

Lewis Howes 1:04:51 Right.

Speaker 1:04:51 Man's Search for Meaning.

Lewis Howes 1:04:52 Yeah.

Speaker 1:04:53 Basically-

Lewis Howes 1:04:54 Viktor Frankl, right? Yeah

Speaker 1:04:54 ... Viktor Frankl, what he... He's in the concentration camps. He tries to have a little notebook in which he writes his scientific research. The book is the proof of his existence.

Lewis Howes 1:05:05 Wow.

Speaker 1:05:05 At one point, he loses that little book, and he realizes that all trace that he's ever been may forever be gone.

Lewis Howes 1:05:13 Mm.

Speaker 1:05:13 And he does develop the notion of logotherapy, right? An idea that, that, um, it, it, that you cannot change your circumstances, but you can change your response to the circumstances, that you still have, until the last moment, fundamental freedom-

Lewis Howes 1:05:29 Right

Speaker 1:05:29 ... which is the freedom to, to the meaning that you give to what is happening to you. And in that sense, no, he can't change his conditions in the concentration camp, but he is able to still maintain a sense of sovereignty and dignity over the human degradation that is happening to him on a minute-by-minute basis.

Lewis Howes 1:05:47 Yeah.

Speaker 1:05:48 And I think it's both end. If you say to the people that are struggling at the borders of Mexico, "You have chosen your prison," it's in- it's indecent.

Lewis Howes 1:05:56 Right.

Speaker 1:05:56 If people are not always choosing their suffering, sometimes within that, they can still sing a song to their child, hold their loved ones, write a letter to someone that is mi- that they're longing for, staying alive for the ones that are waiting for them, and that's where you are coming out of the prison or out of-

Lewis Howes 1:06:16 Yeah

Speaker 1:06:16 ... the suffering, you know, in fa- with a sense of freedom. And I think if... One is to be really careful sometimes to say we, we, we choose our pains, we choose to stay in pain.

Lewis Howes 1:06:28 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:06:29 It's, it, it des- it deserves some discernment.

Lewis Howes 1:06:32 Sure. So suffering and pain is not a choice all the time.

Speaker 1:06:35 Oh, no. I think suffering and pain are part of life.

Lewis Howes 1:06:39 Yeah.

Speaker 1:06:40 There's three things that religion has dealt with forever: What is not explainable, why do we suffer, and why is there evil? And those three things have been the purview of where religion, from an anthropological point of view, really entered. And because of secularization, other people have entered to take the space. People explain to you what is un-understandable.

Lewis Howes 1:07:06 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:07:07 People are trying-

Lewis Howes 1:07:07 I remember

Speaker 1:07:07 ... to help you with your suffering.

Lewis Howes 1:07:09 [laughs]

Speaker 1:07:09 And experts, gurus, teachers, speakers, and all of that are trying to help you with why do bad things happen to good people.

Lewis Howes 1:07:17 Mm-hmm. What is the answer to that?

Speaker 1:07:20 There is no answer to that.

Lewis Howes 1:07:21 [laughs]

Speaker 1:07:21 Otherwise, we wouldn't have had religion from the beginning of time.

Lewis Howes 1:07:24 Right.

Speaker 1:07:25 These are not things that are answered. These are things that... These are, these are questions, existential conundrums that we learn to live with. There's, nobody has ever had an answer. There's so many religions. Not a single one has been able to answer. They give you a way to live with it.

Lewis Howes 1:07:41 Right.

Speaker 1:07:41 They never tell you you're not gonna suffer. They tell you what you can do with your suffering.

Lewis Howes 1:07:45 Right. They-

Speaker 1:07:45 There's-

Lewis Howes 1:07:45 Have faith. Right.

Speaker 1:07:47 Have faith.

Lewis Howes 1:07:47 Have faith.

Speaker 1:07:48 Go pray. Go do rosaries. Go do good things. Help other people. You know, change your story. There's lots of ways today that we're dealing with suffering, but nobody has ever said you're not gonna suffer.

Lewis Howes 1:07:59 So we're always gonna suffer.

Speaker 1:08:01 There is always going to be suffering as part of life.

Lewis Howes 1:08:03 On a scale of-

Speaker 1:08:04 Yes, you're gonna deal with loss.

Lewis Howes 1:08:05 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:08:06 You're gonna deal with thwarted hopes.

Lewis Howes 1:08:08 Yeah.

Speaker 1:08:08 You're gonna deal with-

Lewis Howes 1:08:09 Disappointments

Speaker 1:08:10 ... disappointments.

Lewis Howes 1:08:10 Yeah.

Speaker 1:08:10 With heartbreak, with death, with, with... I mean, those things you, nobody is going to tell you that there will never be loss, and loss is probably one of the most important sources of suffering.

Lewis Howes 1:08:22 Do you feel like with your experience and wisdom that suffering gets easier for you over time since you know it's gonna happen? You know you're gonna lose a friend, a pet, um, you know, a sibling, a, a loved one. You know you're going to be disappointed. Do you have tools for yourself to suffer less or l- lesser time amounts, or is it still a deep sense of pain when things happen unexpectedly that are, or that are hurtful?

Speaker 1:08:50 I think that you don't suffer less. You suffer differently.

Lewis Howes 1:08:55 Okay.

Speaker 1:08:56 And the most important thing is if you're not alone. Probably the most difficult thing in all our experiences, and certainly in the experience of pain or loss or suffering or ache, is not to be alone.

Lewis Howes 1:09:10 Mm.

Speaker 1:09:10 So that somebody else tells you, "I too have gone through this."

Lewis Howes 1:09:15 Yeah.

Speaker 1:09:15 That's why we read books that inspire us from other people who have also lost and found their way back and saw the light again, and they created new hope and reconnected with someone and allowed themselves to love again and have another child and start another business, whatever it is.

Lewis Howes 1:09:32 Right.

Speaker 1:09:32 You know, s- you, what you... You go through it, but you have a sense that there is that thing called going through it, and that you can come out of it on the other side.

Lewis Howes 1:09:41 Right.

Speaker 1:09:41 That there is hope, that you're not alone, that there is a day when it won't hurt and ache as much, that there is a day you will be able to wake up and you won't be thinking about-

Lewis Howes 1:09:52 Obsessing over it

Speaker 1:09:53 ... obsessing about it.

Lewis Howes 1:09:54 When was the last time you suffered the deepest?

Speaker 1:10:00 I have to honestly say it's been a while.

Lewis Howes 1:10:03 Good.

Speaker 1:10:03 I have been in a really blessed, blessed time.

Lewis Howes 1:10:06 That's great.

Speaker 1:10:06 You know? Um-

Lewis Howes 1:10:08 Is a while 10 years, three years, seven years? What's...?

Speaker 1:10:18 Look, I haven't had loss since my parents died.

Lewis Howes 1:10:22 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:10:23 Um, I have had periods of high anxiety for things that were going on around illness, around, you know, things like that, but I have not had a major crisis, luckily-

Lewis Howes 1:10:35 Mm

Speaker 1:10:35 ... in a while, you know? Except dealing with, you know, the proximity of illness in my life.

Lewis Howes 1:10:41 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:10:41 Not my own, for that matter.

Lewis Howes 1:10:42 Just people in your life.

Speaker 1:10:43 So people in my life.

Lewis Howes 1:10:44 Yeah.

Speaker 1:10:44 People that are really, really close to me. So in that sense, I have been really blessed. It's an amazing thing, and you know what happens, is that when you don't live it, you know it exists, but you forget.

Lewis Howes 1:10:57 Mm.

Speaker 1:10:57 It's like if you've had a wound in your leg, you know where the thing was, but it no longer hurts, and you're looking sometimes with your finger. Was it exactly here?

Lewis Howes 1:11:06 Right.

Speaker 1:11:06 Was it exactly there? There's this amazing way in which when we, when we are not in pain, we have, we, we have the sense of what pain can be.

Lewis Howes 1:11:15 Mm.

Speaker 1:11:15 But we can't feel the pain that is not.

Lewis Howes 1:11:18 Mm.

Speaker 1:11:18 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:11:19 Right. [laughs]

Speaker 1:11:20 Unless you are reminded of something and you say, "I, one, I remember. I, I felt that. I know an- I also had that once."

Lewis Howes 1:11:27 Yeah.

Speaker 1:11:27 You know, and you can instantly re-experience the moment with acute pain, but if you don't, if you, the story's not there, you, uh, you, you, y- I, you can say, "Yeah, I remember. I remember. I've, I've gone through this," but you don't feel it in the moment.

Lewis Howes 1:11:42 Right.

Speaker 1:11:42 And I think that form of resistance, of, of immunity, I think is an amazing resilient quality that we have actually.

Lewis Howes 1:11:52 Yeah.

Speaker 1:11:52 That we are able to separate ourselves from something for the time being, but I could get hit any, any minute. We live in such uncertain times. I think that anybody who thinks that they are immune from it, um, are grandiose. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:12:07 I know. I know. I mean, I lo- you have these two podcasts called Where Should We Begin and How's Work?, which I haven't checked out How's Work? yet. I'm going to. But Where Should We Begin is transformation- transformational. It's saving people's relationships, intimate relationships around the world. It's, it's really amazing, done. And it, you know, relationships seem to be some of the hardest things for people to figure out. I have my friend Matthew Hussey, who helps women find men, and every girl, this seems to be, that I know is always like, "Lewis, can you help me find a good man?" It seems like women are just trying to find the right partner, find great relationship partners. And then when you're in a relationship, it seems to be like people are always struggling in relationships, whether it be intimate or work-related relationships, business partnerships. Why are relationships seemingly so hard for so many people when it's the thing we need the most to feel alive, to feel happy, and to feel connected?

Speaker 1:13:05 [laughs] This is the million-dollar question, you know.

Lewis Howes 1:13:08 [laughs]

Speaker 1:13:08 I'm a relationship therapist for 35-plus years. I work with people in their romantic relationships, family relationships, friendships, co-founder, colleagues, coworkers. So love and work.

Lewis Howes 1:13:22 Yes.

Speaker 1:13:22 The two pillars of our life, as Freud said. And, um, if I could just say why is the simple feeling of loving or caring not enough?

Lewis Howes 1:13:32 Mm.

Speaker 1:13:32 Um, because y- The entire human drama is really complex. The same way as nature is complex-

Lewis Howes 1:13:40 Mm

Speaker 1:13:40 ... so is human nature complex. And, uh, I, I've spent my whole career studying what is changing in relationships. You know, why... Are they more complicated today? Are they more painful today? You know, are, are, have our expectations changed?

Lewis Howes 1:13:58 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:13:59 And there aren- there... That I have answers to. I don't have answers to why is it so-

Lewis Howes 1:14:04 Right

Speaker 1:14:04 ... why, you know. But I do know-

Lewis Howes 1:14:06 Is it more complicated now, relationships than-

Speaker 1:14:08 Yes

Lewis Howes 1:14:08 ... 50 or 100 years ago?

Speaker 1:14:09 Yes, yes, absolutely.

Lewis Howes 1:14:10 Why is that?

Speaker 1:14:11 Why? For a very simple reason. For a long time, we live, and we still in many parts of the world, live in traditional societies where relationships are clearly codified. There are clear rules, there are roles, there are obligations. There's a tight structure from which you can't get out-

Lewis Howes 1:14:29 Right

Speaker 1:14:29 ... but it tells you clearly who you are, where you belong, where you rooted, and what's expected of you. And you don't have too much questions about whose career matters more, and who's gonna wake up to feed the baby-

Lewis Howes 1:14:41 Mm

Speaker 1:14:41 ... and who has a right to demand for sex, and what... And everybody, every husband knows exactly what they can ask from their wife, and the wife knows exactly what she should not tell her husband, and children know their place, and adults can all interact. All of this was super regulated.

Lewis Howes 1:14:56 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:14:56 You know exactly that on Sunday you go to visit your family and that you're going to call your grandma and that, and nobody had-

Lewis Howes 1:15:02 You go to church and, yeah

Speaker 1:15:03 ... and you go to church, or you go to any other religious institution where you go to pray, to be with the community, et cetera. And you know what? Nobody needed to explain to you why it's important. You just went-

Lewis Howes 1:15:14 Mm

Speaker 1:15:14 ... because I said so.

Lewis Howes 1:15:15 Right. [laughs]

Speaker 1:15:16 And because that's what you do. That's what we do, and that's what we don't do because what will the neighbors say?

Lewis Howes 1:15:23 Mm.

Speaker 1:15:24 And there is a community that looks over you all the time, and the streets are narrow like that, and everybody knows what's going on in the neighbor's house. Right now, your best friends could be breaking up, and you didn't even see it coming.

Lewis Howes 1:15:38 Mm.

Speaker 1:15:39 Nobody knows what goes on in the neighbor's house. That's where Where Should We Begin became, I think, so powerful.

Lewis Howes 1:15:45 Wow.

Speaker 1:15:45 It gave you back a sense of what actually goes on in other people's lives so that you're not alone wondering, "Am I the only one who's going through all of this?" This tight structure of our society has moved into what we call today network societies. Network societies is not tight knots, it's loose ends.

Lewis Howes 1:16:02 Mm.

Speaker 1:16:02 It's loose threads with commitment that can be revoked at any moment. That's why your women are constantly writing to you. I thought we had something, and the next day he disappears. I thought we had developed a sense of trust. You know, where is the care? Where is the loyalty? Where is the continuity? All these things that now are not just set, fixed, they all have to be negotiated. Everything that was a rule is now a negotiation-

Lewis Howes 1:16:28 Mm

Speaker 1:16:28 ... a conversation. Who's going to go to work?

Lewis Howes 1:16:32 Wow.

Speaker 1:16:32 Who is g- are we gonna move you to the West Coast, or are you gonna move with me to the East Coast? Are we gonna have children? Are we ready to have children? How many children? Do we even want children? You know, on and on and on.

Lewis Howes 1:16:44 So many questions.

Speaker 1:16:44 Am I happy at work? Oh, I could do better. Should I stay a few more months? Should I leave? Should I... You know, is this what I really want to do? Is this who I really am?

Lewis Howes 1:16:54 Is this my passion? Right.

Speaker 1:16:55 Is this my passion? You know, this identity quest the whole time. Is this who I want to be? Is this... A- and all of these questions are rather new questions. Why? Because in the past, or in other parts of the world today, you kind of know who you are.

Lewis Howes 1:17:11 Mm.

Speaker 1:17:11 Seriously.

Lewis Howes 1:17:12 Mm.

Speaker 1:17:12 You're the son of somebody.

Lewis Howes 1:17:13 [laughs] Right.

Speaker 1:17:15 Even you're the son of somebody. It starts with that. Ben, you know? And you probably will even do what your father has done-

Lewis Howes 1:17:23 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:17:24 ... if you are a man, and maybe not do much of any of the outside the house if you are a woman, or you may begin a charting course of working outside the house, and all of these things are very, very normative.

Lewis Howes 1:17:37 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:17:38 And-

Lewis Howes 1:17:38 And now it's different

Speaker 1:17:39 ... we don't have any of that at this moment.

Lewis Howes 1:17:41 Yeah.

Speaker 1:17:41 We are... Basically, I call it the identity economy. We spend our time trying to figure out, who am I?

Lewis Howes 1:17:48 Mm.

Speaker 1:17:49 We have an enormous industry of self-help-

Lewis Howes 1:17:53 Yeah

Speaker 1:17:53 ... you know, um, with this belief that we are self-made, that we can have selfies, that we do self-care. It's this self, self, self that is so focused, such the center of everything, and so fragile. The freaking self has never been more fragile.

Lewis Howes 1:18:09 [laughs]

Speaker 1:18:10 We are constantly making sure that it n- that it doesn't get overwhelmed, that it doesn't get triggered, that it doesn't get v- violated, that it doesn't get shattered because it stands there alone-

Lewis Howes 1:18:22 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:18:22 ... like the little Dutchman with his finger trying to hold back the dike.

Lewis Howes 1:18:26 Mm.

Speaker 1:18:27 You know? And that is the times I think we are in at this moment, and there, uh, that's the waters I think you swim in. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:18:33 Sure. Well, I think that's where suffering, uh, inner suffering comes from on the surface is when you obsessively think about yourself, when you're so- you're obsessively self-centric thinking all the time.

Speaker 1:18:44 Trying to improve yourself and feeling not good enough.

Lewis Howes 1:18:47 Right.

Speaker 1:18:48 I think that's the combination.

Lewis Howes 1:18:49 Comparing yourself.

Speaker 1:18:49 Comparing. Now, I don't know that people didn't compare themselves when they all went to, to, uh, and stood on the steps of the church on a Sunday morning.

Lewis Howes 1:18:56 Sure.

Speaker 1:18:56 I think communities, people have always compared themselves, but there was much... There was a different type of social control-

Lewis Howes 1:19:02 Mm

Speaker 1:19:02 ... the one that we have on social media today.

Lewis Howes 1:19:04 Right.

Speaker 1:19:05 Social control has always existed.

Lewis Howes 1:19:06 Yeah.

Speaker 1:19:07 You know? So suffering is part of life. Community and not being alone is what helps us with all our experiences-

Lewis Howes 1:19:18 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:19:18 ... definitely with suffering. I look at the disappointments of relationships and the struggles that we have. Why are they so challenging? What is the challenge? What can you do about it? When is it you who can do something, and when do you have to realize the limitations that what you will do will not change another-

Lewis Howes 1:19:41 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:19:42 ... necessarily?

Lewis Howes 1:19:43 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:19:43 When it does and when it doesn't, and how does this manifest at work? And at home

Lewis Howes 1:19:48 Yeah, yeah

Speaker 1:19:48 You ask me how relationships have changed. I think we've never had more expectations of love and work than we do today. I think we expect today from love and work many things that we expected before from religion and from community. We want our relationships to be transformative-

Lewis Howes 1:20:05 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:20:05 ... transcendent-

Lewis Howes 1:20:06 Spiritual

Speaker 1:20:06 ... meaningful-

Lewis Howes 1:20:07 Yeah

Speaker 1:20:07 ... spiritual-

Lewis Howes 1:20:08 Sexual

Speaker 1:20:08 ... purposeful, erotic, passionate, and we want it at home, and we want it at work.

Lewis Howes 1:20:13 Mm.

Speaker 1:20:13 We want-

Lewis Howes 1:20:14 How do we get it at work, too?

Speaker 1:20:15 Oh, because we, we want work to be purposeful today.

Lewis Howes 1:20:19 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:20:20 We want work to, you know, to give me a sense of identity, of meaning, of self-fulfillment, of development. I don't just wanna go to work only for the paycheck. I need the paycheck, but I also want the paycheck to-

Lewis Howes 1:20:34 Mm

Speaker 1:20:34 ... be meaningful to me. Um, work has become, um, a- an identity economy. It's not just, what am I gonna do? It's, who am I gonna be?

Lewis Howes 1:20:45 Wow.

Speaker 1:20:45 And, um, w- and it parallels, it parallels, you know... What do we talk about at work? Transparency, belonging, authenticity-

Lewis Howes 1:20:55 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:20:55 ... trust, psychological safety. I mean, when did the entire emotional vocabulary-

Lewis Howes 1:21:01 [laughs]

Speaker 1:21:01 ... enter the workplace to such a degree-

Lewis Howes 1:21:03 [laughs]

Speaker 1:21:04 ... that soft skills, what they used to be called-

Lewis Howes 1:21:07 Uh-huh

Speaker 1:21:08 ... which are emotional and social skills-

Lewis Howes 1:21:10 Yeah

Speaker 1:21:10 ... relational skills, which is, used to be seen as feminine skills.

Lewis Howes 1:21:13 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:21:14 And feminine skills, you don't, you can idealize them in principle but disregard them in reality. And these soft skills have very quickly become the new hard skills.

Lewis Howes 1:21:25 Mm-hmm, true.

Speaker 1:21:26 And that's why I working in the workplace.

Lewis Howes 1:21:29 Yeah.

Speaker 1:21:29 It's not because I have changed, and I suddenly am interested in work. It's because work has changed, and is suddenly interested in what I have been doing for decades.

Lewis Howes 1:21:37 [laughs] I love this. My, I'm gonna ask you a question that may be hard to answer. Maybe it's easy.

Speaker 1:21:41 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:21:42 But you've had, you've seen a lot of intimate relationships work and fail-

Speaker 1:21:47 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:21:47 ... over 35-plus years, right?

Speaker 1:21:49 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:21:49 How many of the relationships... What's the percentage of people, in your mind, who are in intimate long-term relationships, marriages or not married but together, are actually happy most of the time? Thriving, beautiful. I'm sure there's challenges, but, like, they're able to work through them with semi-ease. How many relationships, in your mind, are super happy and thriving after decades of the changes, of the times, society, work, family, all, all the dynamics that happen in life?

Speaker 1:22:22 So I have two ways of answering this.

Lewis Howes 1:22:24 Yes.

Speaker 1:22:24 The first one is cultural.

Lewis Howes 1:22:26 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:22:26 Your definition of happy and thriving and fulfilled is probably very different than many other cultures-

Lewis Howes 1:22:34 Sure

Speaker 1:22:35 ... where being healthy-

Lewis Howes 1:22:36 [laughs] Right

Speaker 1:22:37 ... having enough to eat-

Lewis Howes 1:22:38 Yeah

Speaker 1:22:38 ... having children, having grandchildren-

Lewis Howes 1:22:41 Having good jobs, yeah

Speaker 1:22:41 ... having good jobs, being respected in the community-

Lewis Howes 1:22:44 Is happy and thriving

Speaker 1:22:45 ... is happy and thriving.

Lewis Howes 1:22:47 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:22:47 It's not about you and I are talking on the couch, and I'm pouring my heart at you-

Lewis Howes 1:22:52 Yeah, yeah

Speaker 1:22:52 ... and you are telling me I'm the best thing that's ever happened to you in your life and all of that, okay? So we-

Lewis Howes 1:22:57 That's one version, yeah

Speaker 1:22:58 ... that's one version.

Lewis Howes 1:22:59 Okay.

Speaker 1:22:59 Is you have got to look at the word happiness and thriving really in a cross-cultural context.

Lewis Howes 1:23:03 Okay, I like that.

Speaker 1:23:04 Because a lot of us, by the way, who have the new definition, have parents who think about marriage and what is a happy marriage with the, with the other definition.

Lewis Howes 1:23:14 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:23:15 And I'm wondering, you know, that maybe we are so unhappy because we want so many other things that are maybe not part of marriage.

Lewis Howes 1:23:21 Mm. We have such high expectations.

Speaker 1:23:23 We have super high expectations. I want, we want everything. We want a partner to be an entire community, my best friend, my trusted confidant, my passionate lover, my intellectual equal, my co-parent. And on top of it, I want with you to deal with all the vicissitudes of the everyday life and all of what we need to get to-

Lewis Howes 1:23:40 All the responsibilities and-

Speaker 1:23:40 All of that. And then we should also be passionate, great lovers, w- fantastic travelers.

Lewis Howes 1:23:44 Travel the world, yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 1:23:45 Exactly. [laughs] You know, and very few of us-

Lewis Howes 1:23:48 Go dancing every week. Yeah

Speaker 1:23:49 So Eli Finkel has a best answer for you on that.

Lewis Howes 1:23:53 Okay.

Speaker 1:23:53 He's a researcher on marriage, and, uh, basically what he says is that the good relationships of today are better than the relationships of history.

Lewis Howes 1:24:02 Mm.

Speaker 1:24:03 But there are very few because the good... What you call that happiness is the top of the Olympus.

Lewis Howes 1:24:09 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:24:10 It's climbing the mountain, and at the top of the mountain, the view is fantastic. But the air is also thinner, and not everybody can climb the mountain.

Lewis Howes 1:24:18 Mm.

Speaker 1:24:18 The people who get to the top, their top is probably better than the tops of the past.

Lewis Howes 1:24:23 Wow.

Speaker 1:24:25 Now, what is the top? It used to be that marriage was for survival. Then it became a romantic enterprise, and it became what I call the service economy, from the production economy to the service economy. You want children, but no longer just eight, so you only want two, so sexuality becomes for pleasure and connection. So it becomes a service economy.

Lewis Howes 1:24:46 Mm.

Speaker 1:24:46 It's no longer a production.

Lewis Howes 1:24:47 Right.

Speaker 1:24:47 And then from there you go into identity, which is what? I want to become the best version of myself, and you're gonna help me do so. That's the identity story of marriage.

Lewis Howes 1:24:57 Sure.

Speaker 1:24:57 And that goes up the Maslow ladder. Now, if I w- ask the question differently, I wa- I actually wanted to write that very article.

Lewis Howes 1:25:06 Mm.

Speaker 1:25:07 About 10, 15 years ago, I set out to write a piece, what are creative couples? And do you know... Because creative was the word I was interested in.

Lewis Howes 1:25:15 Mm.

Speaker 1:25:15 Not so much happy, passionate-

Lewis Howes 1:25:17 Sure

Speaker 1:25:18 ... but creative, meaning not stable, not solid. But what is this thing, creativity? The spark. And I went and I asked almost 100 people, "Do you know couples that inspire you? Do you know couples that you think have that spark still?" And the frightening thing was that a majority of people could sometimes come up with one, maybe two, and that was it.

Lewis Howes 1:25:44 Wow.

Speaker 1:25:47 You know, they knew people who were very good at renovations, and people who were great parents together, and people who were great business partners together, but that- ... whole that you talk about

Lewis Howes 1:25:57 The whole package. Yeah

Speaker 1:25:57 There were very few. And I thought that is so sad because here we are, we want something. I mean, if I say good business partners b- or business leaders, you would give me 10 people who you think inspire you to run a company

Lewis Howes 1:26:11 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:26:11 Or, or authors or musicians, or we all have a long list. Like, who can say what's your favorite musician? I mean, most of us have more than one.

Lewis Howes 1:26:19 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:26:20 When it comes to intimate relationships, people have very few models. Now, maybe it is because what they want is so high that there is very few models actually, and that's probably the challenge of intimate relationships today

Lewis Howes 1:26:36 Wow. So how do we, [laughs] how do we find, how do we create that in an intimate partner? Or is it setting a lower expectation for what we want so that we don't-

Speaker 1:26:47 It's both. I think sometimes if you lower your expectations, you're much better off, no doubt.

Lewis Howes 1:26:52 Wow.

Speaker 1:26:52 Calibrate. So back to Eli Finkel's research, calibrating expectations is probably one of the most, the three main things-

Lewis Howes 1:26:59 Wow

Speaker 1:26:59 ... for su- what he calls successful relationships.

Lewis Howes 1:27:02 Wow.

Speaker 1:27:03 And calibrating doesn't mean you lower your expectations necessarily, but you also diversify them.

Lewis Howes 1:27:09 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:27:09 You don't ask one person-

Lewis Howes 1:27:11 Be everything

Speaker 1:27:12 ... to give you what a whole village should actually give you.

Lewis Howes 1:27:14 Right. Okay. That was the first thing. What's the second? You said there's three things.

Speaker 1:27:18 So one is the calibration of the expectation. Two is the diversification. And three, which is the one that very much speaks to me, is, um, doing new things.

Lewis Howes 1:27:30 Mm.

Speaker 1:27:31 That when-

Lewis Howes 1:27:31 With your partner?

Speaker 1:27:31 With your partner. That if you do the things that you enjoy, that's really nice, that's comfortable, that's cozy, that solidifies the friendship. But if you want to create intensity-

Lewis Howes 1:27:43 Mm

Speaker 1:27:43 ... it de- it d- it demands risk-taking, doing new things outside of your comfort zone, little bit more on the edge.

Lewis Howes 1:27:50 How often should we be doing new things with our intimate partner?

Speaker 1:27:54 I think a- as often... I mean, look, the answer to this is very simple. Often enough, but not too often that you become chaotic and you disregulate.

Lewis Howes 1:28:04 Mm.

Speaker 1:28:04 Right now you're asking me a systemic question. This is true for an individual, a relationship, or a company. If you don't change or grow, you fossilize and you die.

Lewis Howes 1:28:16 Mm.

Speaker 1:28:16 If you change too much too fast-

Lewis Howes 1:28:18 No stability. Yeah

Speaker 1:28:19 ... there's no stability, you go chaotic and you disregulate.

Lewis Howes 1:28:22 Right.

Speaker 1:28:23 So w- how often it depends on where you are at in your life. Are you the two of you? Do you have kids? Do you have little ones? Do you have, or aging parents? Are you taking care of somebody? What else is going on here? Will tell you if this is a period where you need more stability or if this is a period where it's time to go and be curious and explore and discover-

Lewis Howes 1:28:43 Right

Speaker 1:28:43 ... and go into the world and launch.

Lewis Howes 1:28:45 Right. If you're a, a young 30-something female, I get this all the time from a lot of women who reach out to me, who are ending relationships that were really stressful for them, or they've been single for years and they're trying to figure out how do they find the right person, or how do they create the right relationship for them that's gonna be a, a long-term partner. If you're a female in your young 30s, what should they be thinking about? Like, should they be focusing first on themself, growing themself? Or what are the things they should be looking for in the right partner?

Speaker 1:29:17 Right. I just wrote my current blog, which is a little bit of a critique of this taking care of yourself first.

Lewis Howes 1:29:24 Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:29:25 So, um-

Lewis Howes 1:29:26 [laughs] Guilty

Speaker 1:29:27 ... because you, you learn to love yourself in the context of your relationships with others.

Lewis Howes 1:29:32 Mm.

Speaker 1:29:33 You know, w- this idea that you go first to work on yourself here, and then you prepare this little nice little package, and you bring it to relationships, that's, that is completely off actually.

Lewis Howes 1:29:43 Wow.

Speaker 1:29:43 There it's, it's, it's interactive. You do do... You need a good amount of self-awareness, but you also need to be in relationships because it's people who help you become more aware.

Lewis Howes 1:29:53 Practicing it. Yeah.

Speaker 1:29:54 Practicing it, but other people let you see who you are. It's by being with others that you get to know who you are, not just by sitting there alone and say, "Who am I? Who am I?"

Lewis Howes 1:30:02 Right.

Speaker 1:30:03 But this is a relational perspective on life, and I will stand by that.

Lewis Howes 1:30:07 Wow.

Speaker 1:30:07 Read the newsletter. It's-

Lewis Howes 1:30:09 I like that

Speaker 1:30:09 ... I really poured myself into that one.

Lewis Howes 1:30:11 Okay. Good.

Speaker 1:30:11 Because I'm tired a little bit of this. No. What I will say to you, I'm tired of the go fix yourself-

Lewis Howes 1:30:19 First, then go be in a relationship

Speaker 1:30:19 ... first, and then go be in a relationship. Relationships help you to become who you are.

Lewis Howes 1:30:23 Mm.

Speaker 1:30:24 That's what happens between children and their caregivers. The next thing is intent, instead of constantly thinking, "Who's the right person I'm gonna find?" Why don't you ask yourself, who do you wanna be? Who should the other one be? No, maybe it's for on occasion ask, "Who will I be as a partner?"

Lewis Howes 1:30:41 Mm.

Speaker 1:30:41 "Who have I been till now in my relationships? How have I shown up? What is it that I do?" Not just, you know, finding the right person.

Lewis Howes 1:30:50 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:30:51 That's... No. What does it mean to find the right person? And there I will say the simplest way of looking at it is this. There are many people you will love, and they are not necessarily the same people that you will make a life with. Are you looking for a love story, or are you looking for a life story?

Lewis Howes 1:31:09 Ooh, that's good.

Speaker 1:31:11 You understand?

Lewis Howes 1:31:12 Yeah.

Speaker 1:31:13 There are many people have had love stories. This is a whole different story. I never thought for a minute I would live with these people. Take something else to have a partner in life with whom you're gonna go through the pains-

Lewis Howes 1:31:23 Yeah

Speaker 1:31:23 ... the sufferings, the challenges, the, you know, the, the, all of that. So-

Lewis Howes 1:31:27 Can you have a life partner and still have a love story?

Speaker 1:31:29 Of course. Of course. You want the life partner to be a love story too.

Lewis Howes 1:31:34 Mm.

Speaker 1:31:34 But the love stories per se are not life stories.

Lewis Howes 1:31:37 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:31:38 It's different ingredients. It's different values. You, there's some things that you don't need in order to have a beautiful love story with someone. It, it, it lives in its encapsulated version on its own. You're not thinking, "Can I do this with you? Can I get old with you? Can I take you to my parents?" Can, ca- you know, uh, do we share similar va- it's about values, life, not just about feelings.

Lewis Howes 1:31:59 Mm.

Speaker 1:32:00 So when you're looking for the right person, it's not just what attracts you- It's who can you build a life with?

Lewis Howes 1:32:07 How many values in common do you need to have with your partner, life partner? Because-

Speaker 1:32:13 The important ones. It's not how many, but there are few of them-

Lewis Howes 1:32:17 Mm

Speaker 1:32:17 ... that are really, that are really important.

Lewis Howes 1:32:19 Like which, which ones would you say?

Speaker 1:32:21 I think-

Lewis Howes 1:32:21 That make or break based on your experience.

Speaker 1:32:27 I think, I w- I'm not gonna say them in order of importance.

Lewis Howes 1:32:30 Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:32:31 But one of them that really matters is your relationship to others. If you are a person that values relationships, that sees the presence of others in your life as central, and you are with somebody who does not want community-

Lewis Howes 1:32:52 Mm

Speaker 1:32:52 ... or does not know how... I mean, I'm talking not about what they would like to learn through you, but their value is you do things alone, you live alone-

Lewis Howes 1:33:00 Mm

Speaker 1:33:00 ... you rely on yourself, you d- you know, you don't bring people over to the house. I have a couple I just spoke with yesterday, you know, and he loves to have people over, and she just, nobody should come over to the house.

Lewis Howes 1:33:12 She wants her, her space alone.

Speaker 1:33:13 Her space, the whole thing.

Lewis Howes 1:33:14 Yeah.

Speaker 1:33:14 And I'm thinking, "Wow, this is a tough one."

Lewis Howes 1:33:17 Uh-huh.

Speaker 1:33:17 It's not just about the hou- it's his whole life is about being with people, and her whole life is about not being with people necessarily.

Lewis Howes 1:33:25 Mm.

Speaker 1:33:25 That's not how she experiences it. Now the question is, is she drawn to more of what he has to offer, and is he drawn to more of what she... If these are totally-

Lewis Howes 1:33:35 They both want a little more, yeah

Speaker 1:33:36 ... then, then okay, it's different values come together and they, they mix and match.

Lewis Howes 1:33:42 Yeah.

Speaker 1:33:42 But if you have these two separations like that, so that's one.

Lewis Howes 1:33:45 The train's not gonna go on. Okay.

Speaker 1:33:45 One of the beautiful questions I ask in how is work is, um, were you raised for autonomy or were you raised for loyalty? Were you raised for self-reliance or were you raised for interdependence?

Lewis Howes 1:33:59 Mm.

Speaker 1:34:00 Which one would you say?

Lewis Howes 1:34:02 For me it was, uh, self-reliance meaning what?

Speaker 1:34:05 You have, nobody will ever help you as well as you can help yourself.

Lewis Howes 1:34:09 Mm.

Speaker 1:34:09 You only have yourself to count on. Don't trust people. You're on your own, buddy.

Lewis Howes 1:34:15 Or raised for loyalty of-

Speaker 1:34:16 Interdependence, loyalty-

Lewis Howes 1:34:18 Family, team

Speaker 1:34:19 ... th- you're never alone.

Lewis Howes 1:34:20 Mm.

Speaker 1:34:20 There's people around you. You owe others, others are there for you.

Lewis Howes 1:34:24 Mm.

Speaker 1:34:24 Relationships is what makes you.

Lewis Howes 1:34:28 I think I was both based on, like, circumstances and like lessons, yeah.

Speaker 1:34:31 Correct. The circumstances made you reliable-

Lewis Howes 1:34:33 Yeah

Speaker 1:34:33 ... because you were alone-

Lewis Howes 1:34:34 Uh-huh

Speaker 1:34:35 ... with mom.

Lewis Howes 1:34:35 Yeah.

Speaker 1:34:35 But the messaging was you have me.

Lewis Howes 1:34:38 Of course. Yeah, yeah, of course.

Speaker 1:34:40 Okay.

Lewis Howes 1:34:40 Yeah. So I think both.

Speaker 1:34:41 I think that question is a fundamentally interesting question-

Lewis Howes 1:34:45 Wow. Okay

Speaker 1:34:46 ... that people can ask themselves when they partner in business and in love.

Lewis Howes 1:34:53 Raised for self-reliance or loyalty.

Speaker 1:34:55 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:34:57 Okay.

Speaker 1:34:58 Interdependence. Are you part, do you see yourself as connected to others and it's your connections that give you a sense of anchoring, meaning, relevance-

Lewis Howes 1:35:07 Mm

Speaker 1:35:07 ... importance-

Lewis Howes 1:35:08 Understood

Speaker 1:35:08 ... and all of that?

Lewis Howes 1:35:09 Okay.

Speaker 1:35:09 Or do you see yourself as fundamentally on your own?

Lewis Howes 1:35:12 On your own. Gotcha.

Speaker 1:35:13 I think travel, curiosity, you often will have a complementarity between one person who is curious and eager to discover and goes on, you know.

Lewis Howes 1:35:24 Yeah.

Speaker 1:35:24 And then another person... Your question about-

Lewis Howes 1:35:27 Who wants to be alone or, or doesn't wanna travel, wants to stay home

Speaker 1:35:28 ... doesn't want to, but it's also likes comfort, likes repetition-

Lewis Howes 1:35:33 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:35:33 ... likes the familiar.

Lewis Howes 1:35:34 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:35:35 Um, I think the religious values.

Lewis Howes 1:35:37 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:35:37 If you have a person who, who, you know, those, those matter a great deal. Um, children.

Lewis Howes 1:35:45 Mm.

Speaker 1:35:45 Do you want family or do you not want family? If you, you know, if you want a family, then make sure that you find someone who wants a family. What do you-

Lewis Howes 1:35:52 Right. Otherwise what's the point of being in it?

Speaker 1:35:54 What are you gonna-

Lewis Howes 1:35:54 Like partners, yeah

Speaker 1:35:54 ... what are you gonna do? Try to convince some, you know. Now, I don't think you have to have the same values on everything. I think you have to have a similar v- outlook on life.

Lewis Howes 1:36:03 Which is?

Speaker 1:36:05 A vision.

Lewis Howes 1:36:06 Mm.

Speaker 1:36:06 Like, exactly the same as when you, a vision. Do you, you know, do you want to own a home?

Lewis Howes 1:36:16 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:36:16 Do you think that economic achievement is important? Do you want to live in an extended family? You think that living intergenerationally really is important, and you have somebody else who says, you know, "I don't want your parents over."

Lewis Howes 1:36:31 [laughs] Right.

Speaker 1:36:33 You know, do you, do you want to live in more than one place?

Lewis Howes 1:36:39 Mm.

Speaker 1:36:39 You know, I think these are essential, you know, money-

Lewis Howes 1:36:43 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:36:43 ... feelings or emotions, religious beliefs, attitude toward life. It's not a specific value about something, it's the, a, a value is a cluster of things.

Lewis Howes 1:37:02 Yeah.

Speaker 1:37:02 It's a cluster of importance of systems of meanings. That's a value.

Lewis Howes 1:37:06 It's, and you may not find someone with everything is the same, but someone with a similar mindset is what you're saying.

Speaker 1:37:12 I met-

Lewis Howes 1:37:12 An overall feeling

Speaker 1:37:13 ... a husband of mine, with whom I am for more than three decades-

Lewis Howes 1:37:17 Yeah

Speaker 1:37:17 ... who had never left the US when I met him.

Lewis Howes 1:37:20 Really?

Speaker 1:37:21 I never knew such a person existed.

Lewis Howes 1:37:23 [laughs]

Speaker 1:37:24 Coming from Europe, that was un, un, unheard of for us.

Lewis Howes 1:37:27 He lived in Europe?

Speaker 1:37:27 No, he lived in the States.

Lewis Howes 1:37:27 Oh, he lived in the States.

Speaker 1:37:29 He was American.

Lewis Howes 1:37:30 Gotcha.

Speaker 1:37:30 I came from Europe. In Europe, you travel-

Lewis Howes 1:37:32 Everywhere, yeah

Speaker 1:37:32 ... everywhere, all the time, even if you have nothing.

Lewis Howes 1:37:34 Bus, train, plane.

Speaker 1:37:34 You work one month, you get the money, and then you go to the next country, which is two hours away.

Lewis Howes 1:37:39 Yeah.

Speaker 1:37:40 I, so I-

Lewis Howes 1:37:41 And he never traveled outside of the US?

Speaker 1:37:42 He had never been outside of the US. Well, he will always tell me he'd been to the Virgin Islands.

Lewis Howes 1:37:46 Okay. [laughs]

Speaker 1:37:46 But, you know, for the re- and I thought, "Oh my God, how does one, you know, who is such a person?" But I knew it was because of the circumstances of his life-

Lewis Howes 1:37:56 Right

Speaker 1:37:56 ... and that if he could, he would-

Lewis Howes 1:37:58 Mm

Speaker 1:37:58 ... and he was intensely curious.

Lewis Howes 1:38:00 Mm.

Speaker 1:38:00 If you just said, "Oh, he's never traveled," then you misinterpret. You don't wanna just look at the manifest thing of-

Lewis Howes 1:38:08 Mm

Speaker 1:38:08 ... you know, you wanna say, "And behind this, is there someone who would actually like that, who just hasn't had the opportunity?" And he's curious and just says, "Let's go." So don't get fooled just by what you see.

Lewis Howes 1:38:21 Right.

Speaker 1:38:21 Find out what is the belief behind it, the aspiration, the longing, the interest, and then you get a sense of what is the value.

Lewis Howes 1:38:29 Do you think it's... I, I wanna go back to expectation. Do you feel like we should lower or should diversify expectations or what did you say the word was?

Speaker 1:38:39 Calibrate.

Lewis Howes 1:38:39 Calibrate expectations. Or should we be f- finding someone that can reach that expectation that we want?

Speaker 1:38:47 No, I think it's really-

Lewis Howes 1:38:48 You think it's just impossible.

Speaker 1:38:49 I think you, you need to calibrate.

Lewis Howes 1:38:51 Calibrate.

Speaker 1:38:52 You-

Lewis Howes 1:38:52 Always calibrate, too, right?

Speaker 1:38:53 You calibrate. You constantly will be disappointed. Do you know a single relationship where you haven't been disappointed?

Lewis Howes 1:38:59 No.

Speaker 1:38:59 Okay. I mean, disappointment is, which can lead to suffering-

Lewis Howes 1:39:03 Oh, yeah

Speaker 1:39:03 ... is part of a relationship. The minute you have a relationship, you have an expectation. That expectation means that you want something, love, closeness, intimacy, partnership, b- b- you know-

Lewis Howes 1:39:18 Right

Speaker 1:39:18 ... business affiliation, you name it. Creates dependence. The moment you have an attachment, you have dependence. That dependence means that you have power, or I have power. If I expect something from you, I confer power on you.

Lewis Howes 1:39:33 Hm.

Speaker 1:39:34 You have power over me. I have power over you. By definition, there will be moments when that power doesn't go in the direction that I want.

Lewis Howes 1:39:42 And I'll be disappointed.

Speaker 1:39:43 I'll be disappointed. Is there a single child that didn't have a disappointment from their parents?

Lewis Howes 1:39:47 No.

Speaker 1:39:47 It doesn't exist.

Lewis Howes 1:39:48 Right.

Speaker 1:39:49 This, this idyllic thing you're talking about-

Lewis Howes 1:39:51 [laughs]

Speaker 1:39:51 ... it doesn't exist. The next thing is what do you do with that disappointment? A, can I come tell you, "I'm really disappointed. You let me down. I thought we were in this together. I trusted you." And you say, "I see your point," or do you say, "What the hell are you talking about? You're just inventing this. You're delusional."

Lewis Howes 1:40:09 Mm.

Speaker 1:40:09 None of the, you know.

Lewis Howes 1:40:10 Yeah.

Speaker 1:40:10 And everything in between.

Lewis Howes 1:40:12 Yeah.

Speaker 1:40:12 That's how you do a relationship. It's really based on the repair. It's not based on the... [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:40:18 It's how we heal the disappointment.

Speaker 1:40:20 Yes. It's how you repair all these breaches.

Lewis Howes 1:40:23 Yeah.

Speaker 1:40:23 Moment by moment. You come back. You know, and the repair is not, "I am so sorry." The repair may sometimes be, "Hey, do you want a glass of water?"

Lewis Howes 1:40:30 Right.

Speaker 1:40:31 Or, "Hey, did you see this article in the newspaper?" John Gottman has this very interesting thing about that. He says the repair is not that you come and you do a mea culpa. It's that you do, what he calls, bids for connection. You show the other that they still matter.

Lewis Howes 1:40:46 Hm.

Speaker 1:40:46 I brought the newspaper in, at a time when we still had newspapers.

Lewis Howes 1:40:50 Right, right, right, right.

Speaker 1:40:50 That was one of his examples. You know, I brought the paper in. Like, I think of you. I'm pissed at you. You just annoyed me. We just had a spat, but I s- but you're still-

Lewis Howes 1:40:59 I still care about you

Speaker 1:40:59 ... I still care.

Lewis Howes 1:41:00 I still value you.

Speaker 1:41:00 You're still in my life. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:41:01 I still respect you. So it's how we repair disappointment on a daily or weekly or monthly basis-

Speaker 1:41:06 Minute, sometimes

Lewis Howes 1:41:07 ... is the, is the, the success of the relationship.

Speaker 1:41:10 And that means also how you come and you say, you take responsibility. Yes.

Lewis Howes 1:41:15 Right. Right.

Speaker 1:41:15 I think, I actually think that taking responsibility is the ultimate freedom.

Lewis Howes 1:41:19 Really?

Speaker 1:41:20 I've, I messed up. I shouldn't have done this. You know, can I do that? You know, it really is being accountable.

Lewis Howes 1:41:27 Mm-hmm. What if you're, it wasn't your fault.

Speaker 1:41:28 Instead of blaming the other.

Lewis Howes 1:41:30 What if it, what if it actually in that moment wasn't your fault?

Speaker 1:41:32 Doesn't matter.

Lewis Howes 1:41:33 It was completely-

Speaker 1:41:33 It wasn't ... You don't have to agree with anything.

Lewis Howes 1:41:35 Mm.

Speaker 1:41:35 I didn't mean to. It wasn't my intention.

Lewis Howes 1:41:38 Yeah.

Speaker 1:41:39 It's so ... You know, we are going to slip a lot.

Lewis Howes 1:41:43 Right.

Speaker 1:41:43 But it's about just saying it. And for that, you have to ... It's about saying it, and for that, you have to be able to see that you're a flawed person-

Lewis Howes 1:41:51 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:41:53 ... who can be accountable-

Lewis Howes 1:41:55 Yeah

Speaker 1:41:55 ... without that becoming a major source of shame and I'm terrible. It's a different thing between saying, "I messed up," and, "I'm messed up."

Lewis Howes 1:42:03 How ... I like this distinction. How do we in our mind ... Because I think in the past relationships when I messed up in a small term-

Speaker 1:42:12 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:42:12 ... right, like a disappointment-

Speaker 1:42:14 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:42:14 ... a small disappointment, feeling, saying like, "I'm sorry"-

Speaker 1:42:18 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:42:18 ... or say- taking responsibility or saying, "You know what? That was my fault"-

Speaker 1:42:21 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:42:21 ... right-

Speaker 1:42:22 Was like a humiliation

Lewis Howes 1:42:23 ... well, it was more like, look at ... When I'm like, well, look at all the-

Speaker 1:42:26 Why shall I?

Lewis Howes 1:42:27 No. It's more like here's all the actions I'm doing right.

Speaker 1:42:30 Right.

Lewis Howes 1:42:31 Today I've done this-

Speaker 1:42:32 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:42:32 ... which was an expectation, and I've done that, and I took the trash out or whatever. I'm just ... And I, you know, did something kind for you, and I wrote a note, and I did this, and I took us to dinner. I did all these things well today, but I messed up on this one thing.

Speaker 1:42:44 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:42:45 So for me, I used to say to myself like, "Gosh, but can't you see the whole picture of like all the good things I'm doing? Why do I need to be an hour conversation about like one small thing?" That's what I used to feel like. And do you feel like we should just be saying, you know what? Take responsibility anyways for those moments-

Speaker 1:43:02 Yes

Lewis Howes 1:43:02 ... even if you're doing lots of good things.

Speaker 1:43:03 Uh-huh. So-

Lewis Howes 1:43:04 You know what I mean?

Speaker 1:43:05 Yes, but the-

Lewis Howes 1:43:05 I'm not a perfect human being. You know, it's like I might slip. [laughs]

Speaker 1:43:11 It ... The story is told by you.

Lewis Howes 1:43:13 Yes.

Speaker 1:43:14 The other person is the one that needs to take to tell you about all the good things that you've done.

Lewis Howes 1:43:20 Uh-huh.

Speaker 1:43:21 S- i- if you felt, "I do all of this. I do one thing wrong, and now I have to go into the dark pit"-

Lewis Howes 1:43:27 Yes

Speaker 1:43:28 ... you know? But that's because you had a partner who did not enough tell you about all the good things you did.

Lewis Howes 1:43:33 Right. So this was about me.

Speaker 1:43:35 If you are in a relationship, you need that other person to acknowledge all of the positive stuff so that when you have to say something about the moment that you messed up, you don't feel like, you know, this is an endless chore.

Lewis Howes 1:43:48 Well, I think ... Yeah, exactly, or I think it's more like, okay, if you're gonna acknowledge one thing that I didn't do, at least acknowledge something about-

Speaker 1:43:55 That's right

Lewis Howes 1:43:56 ... the thing I did do, right?

Speaker 1:43:57 That it's not at least. It's a must.

Lewis Howes 1:43:59 It's a must.

Speaker 1:44:00 It's a must.

Lewis Howes 1:44:00 A must is not bad if I ... I shouldn't be needing that, or I shouldn't be-

Speaker 1:44:04 You should need it

Lewis Howes 1:44:05 ... complaining. I should need it, right.

Speaker 1:44:06 You should need it.

Lewis Howes 1:44:06 Yeah.

Speaker 1:44:06 You totally should need it.

Lewis Howes 1:44:07 Gotcha.

Speaker 1:44:08 But-

Lewis Howes 1:44:08 Don't only acknowledge the bad. Also acknowledge the good.

Speaker 1:44:11 Not also. It's, it's, it's a must. It's a mandate. You know, what happens sometimes in distressed relationships-

Lewis Howes 1:44:19 Yeah

Speaker 1:44:19 ... because you were in a distressed relationship-

Lewis Howes 1:44:21 Yeah, yeah

Speaker 1:44:21 ... at that moment.

Lewis Howes 1:44:22 Yes.

Speaker 1:44:22 And this is true. You can directly take this into the workplace. In a distressed relationship, the tendency is to highlight the negative and disregard the positive.

Lewis Howes 1:44:34 Right.

Speaker 1:44:35 The positive is just a given. The negative, we'll make a big deal out of it. So the one thing you didn't do becomes the whole conversation, and then what does that person do? Of course, that person says, "But you disregard all the other stuff."

Lewis Howes 1:44:49 Yeah.

Speaker 1:44:49 And rightly so because it has been disregarded.

Lewis Howes 1:44:53 Mm.

Speaker 1:44:53 In a distressed relationship the positive ... You know, if we get there on time, it's because there was no traffic. And if we get there late, it's because of you. The good is chance. The bad is attributed to you. Or in a different version of that is what we call negative attribution error. If I am in a bad mood, it's because I had a bad day. But if you're in a bad mood, it's because you're a nasty person who is always so cantankerous.

Lewis Howes 1:45:18 Right.

Speaker 1:45:19 Mine is circumstantial. Yours is characterological. So when you'd say, "I was in a relationship in which when I did one thing bad it was so overblown and I felt like everything else was being disregarded," that's a sign of a distressed relationship-

Lewis Howes 1:45:35 Mm

Speaker 1:45:35 ... in and of itself.

Lewis Howes 1:45:36 Interesting. Rich-

Speaker 1:45:38 The fact that-

Lewis Howes 1:45:39 Okay

Speaker 1:45:39 ... you ... Because in a normal relationship somebody else says, "Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you." Then you finally don't do something and says, "Ugh, I really messed up there. I forgot. Sorry."

Lewis Howes 1:45:47 Right.

Speaker 1:45:48 And it's not such a big deal-

Lewis Howes 1:45:50 Okay

Speaker 1:45:50 ... because you are seen for the whole person.

Lewis Howes 1:45:52 Right.

Speaker 1:45:52 If you have to make a speech about you should see the whole person, you're not in a good relationship.

Lewis Howes 1:45:57 Ah, there you go. Okay.

Speaker 1:45:58 Or you're not in ... The dynamic in your relationship-

Lewis Howes 1:46:01 It's not working

Speaker 1:46:01 ... is not a good one.

Lewis Howes 1:46:02 Yeah.

Speaker 1:46:02 No.

Lewis Howes 1:46:02 Okay.

Speaker 1:46:02 That's ... That, that in itself is a sign of a bad dynamic.

Lewis Howes 1:46:05 Got you, got you. Okay.

Speaker 1:46:06 You shouldn't have to say this.

Lewis Howes 1:46:07 So I wasn't crazy. Okay, gotcha.

Speaker 1:46:08 No.

Lewis Howes 1:46:09 Okay, gotcha. [laughs]

Speaker 1:46:10 No.

Lewis Howes 1:46:11 And the-

Speaker 1:46:11 And the interesting thing about this is how much it applies at home.

Lewis Howes 1:46:16 Mm.

Speaker 1:46:16 And the same thing happens at work.

Lewis Howes 1:46:19 And at work. So is it a mandate to acknowledge, uh, team members at work as well in the good and not just the negative?

Speaker 1:46:30 I absolutely think so.

Lewis Howes 1:46:31 Yeah.

Speaker 1:46:32 But I am not the best at it myself.

Lewis Howes 1:46:33 Right. [laughs]

Speaker 1:46:34 [laughs] You know?

Lewis Howes 1:46:35 You don't acknowledge your team the best.

Speaker 1:46:36 I do, I do. But I-

Lewis Howes 1:46:37 It's hard. When we're running the show we see a lot of the, the things that are slipping through, right?

Speaker 1:46:41 Yeah. Yeah. It's like, uh, my tendency is to ... Uh, uh, it-

Lewis Howes 1:46:44 But it's different because in a relationship you're not ... It's not a paycheck, right? It's like ... Well, maybe there is, but it's different in terms of, like, an intimate relationship versus a working relationship.

Speaker 1:46:52 How much has your team taught you? Because look-

Lewis Howes 1:46:55 A lot

Speaker 1:46:55 ... you are probably like me. We wouldn't be sitting here on some level if we were not actually more self-critical people.

Lewis Howes 1:47:03 Of course.

Speaker 1:47:03 And very demanding of ourselves.

Lewis Howes 1:47:05 Of course.

Speaker 1:47:05 And hence we surround ourselves by people who we think we can be demanding from as well.

Lewis Howes 1:47:10 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:47:11 And that is true, but it is also important that we learn to be sometimes a little kinder with ourselves-

Lewis Howes 1:47:18 Mm

Speaker 1:47:18 ... and not just highlight the negative.

Lewis Howes 1:47:20 I know.

Speaker 1:47:22 While at the same time asking the girlfriend to not be like that-

Lewis Howes 1:47:25 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:47:25 ... even though you are doing it with yourself-

Lewis Howes 1:47:28 Sure, sure

Speaker 1:47:28 ... and to also do it with our team.

Lewis Howes 1:47:29 Yeah.

Speaker 1:47:30 Um, I, I don't think you can go wrong. You know, if it's not g- just kind of fluff.

Lewis Howes 1:47:35 Yeah.

Speaker 1:47:35 I think that acknowledging the efforts of people is a good thing to learn, and my team teaches me that.

Lewis Howes 1:47:41 It teaches me a lot too.

Speaker 1:47:42 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:47:43 Yeah. I've grown so much in the last seven, eight years of launching this and my business just by seeing how much, you know, my words or my energy could affect someone if, you know, I'm only focusing on, like, what they messed up on.

Speaker 1:47:56 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:47:56 So we, we do acknowledgement all the time. E- every meeting it's like we try to acknowledge a team member and acknowledge people all the time because I've learned over the years of just, like, it's not good just to focus on the negative and what's, what's not working, even if you're the boss and even if you're paying everyone, whatever it may be.

Speaker 1:48:12 And have you ever connected that to the fact that your focus was on self-reliance? See, they come together.

Lewis Howes 1:48:18 Right, right.

Speaker 1:48:19 Self ... Autonomous people, people who were raised for autonomy need to learn what you're describing.

Lewis Howes 1:48:25 Yeah.

Speaker 1:48:25 To be more ... To, to give those comment, to see what other people are doing. They need to learn not to just look like this.

Lewis Howes 1:48:31 Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's true. Now in how's work ... I'm excited to dive in on this. I had a, a business partnership before The School of Greatness about eight years ago that we s- we started a company together I guess 11 years ago we started a company, and we ran this for like three years.

Speaker 1:48:48 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:48:49 The company took off. It started to be very successful financially. It started making millions of dollars in sales a year with a very small team. It was essentially just us. We outsourced a few things. And it did very well until the dynamics of the relationship started to change. We had both had nothing starting out, and then we grew and we started to get some success, some financial stability, things like that. And things started to shift where we didn't have our values aligned. We didn't have our, I guess, our work ethic aligned, and we didn't communicate about-

Speaker 1:49:22 Be specific.

Lewis Howes 1:49:23 We didn't communicate about expectations. We went into it quickly into a business partnership.

Speaker 1:49:28 Were you friends before?

Lewis Howes 1:49:29 We were friends maybe for, like, six months. Like, we had just met.

Speaker 1:49:33 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:49:33 We were in a co-working space. I was working on something similar to what he was working on. Let's ... We were just talking and hanging out, helping each other, giving advice, and then we worked on a project together.

Speaker 1:49:43 Hey, we should do-

Lewis Howes 1:49:44 Let's try this thing. It did well. Let's do this again next week. Let's keep doing ... We're making money. Let's, let's grow the ... Okay, now let's build a business together. So there was not a level of communication beforehand or agreement on, okay, if in five years you wanna leave what's the expectation? If I wanna leave ... We didn't have that. So I take full responsibility with both of us not clearly communicating expectations. And so anyways, after a few years we ... I started to get a lot of resentment because I had an expectation that this person would be working as hard as me. I'm up till 2:00 AM every night. He has, uh, kids and a wife. I don't have that, so I can work all day, all night. And I'm thinking, "Let's grow this thing. Let's build this thing." And I didn't communicate, so I take full responsibility. So after a while, I remember saying to myself, "Why am I, why am I giving up 50% of this when I'm doing 90% of the, the sales generating-

Speaker 1:50:45 Yep. Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:50:46 ... efforts that are bringing in the revenue, right? And I even had him, um... I was like, a lot of our stuff was based on sales from live webinars, and I was the guy who was doing the live webinars. So I even said like, "Hey, why don't you try to do this webinar on your, on your own and see if you can generate some sales?" And there was zero sales when he did it. So I think he realized, okay, like, in order to generate s- income, he needed someone to sell for him. And where I was, I was thinking like, "Okay, I could probably pay someone five grand a month to do all the responsibilities of him, but he's generating a lot more than that." And so there was a level of resentment where I just didn't communicate. I just got angry and was resentful.

Speaker 1:51:24 And when you get angry, what do you do?

Lewis Howes 1:51:26 Um, I would be reactive. I'd be dismissive. I would be, you know, I would be distant. I would focus on my own stuff, and I started thinking of like, "How do I get out of this," right? How, how do I get out of this? And I was also very immature, didn't know like, didn't really know myself, didn't heal my trauma from the past, like didn't do all these things before this. And I remember like going through a lot of internal pain and suffering because of this lack, my, my lack of emotional courage to have hard conversations.

Speaker 1:51:59 Was he acknowledging the fact that... W- did you have a shared sense of reality?

Lewis Howes 1:52:05 Um, no.

Speaker 1:52:05 Did he agree with what you see?

Lewis Howes 1:52:06 No. No, no, no. No.

Speaker 1:52:07 So that's the first thing. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:52:08 I think, I think until he d- he tried like to do a webinar himself to sell and he, he didn't make any money on it.

Speaker 1:52:13 Right.

Lewis Howes 1:52:13 I think he, it was like a first wake-up call, like, "Oh, I guess I do need Lewis" in a sense.

Speaker 1:52:18 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:52:18 Like, we needed each other until a point where I was like, "I could just pay someone to do your job," but we had started this together.

Speaker 1:52:25 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:52:25 So it was just like trying to figure, it was just messy.

Speaker 1:52:27 And then?

Lewis Howes 1:52:28 Um, I remember like we were in the middle of Times Square one day arguing, and a friend of ours was there, a mutual friend, and we were arguing, and it just got really heated. And I wanted to like literally fight him in the middle of Times Square 'cause I was like, "You're not holding your weight. I'm doing this." You know, it was just like an argument. We were both arguing our case, right? And I was just like, "This is not working," you know? "And it's not gonna work." I ended up selling the company to him. I, I remember I ended up started going through emotional intelligence work and started healing trauma in the past, and I approached him and I said, "Even though I have this-"

Speaker 1:53:01 What was the piece that you needed to address from the past that was gonna help you with this?

Lewis Howes 1:53:06 Um, I... What wasn't the piece I needed to address? But I think it was the sexual abuse and the trauma that I faced and a lot of like feeling abused and taken advantage of my entire life, feeling like people were out to get me or fairness of like what's fair, what should we both have, what should we both get type of thing. So I think once I started to do a lot of that work on myself and heal from past hurts from other people where I felt-

Speaker 1:53:30 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:53:30 ... taken advantage of.

Speaker 1:53:32 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:53:33 I remember coming to him and emailing him and saying, "Hey, I wanna meet you in person." And literally, the first thing I said was like 10 minutes of acknowledging him and gratitude for him. Where-

Speaker 1:53:43 I wouldn't have started this without you.

Lewis Howes 1:53:46 I was just like, "There's no way we'd be here right now without you. I'm so grateful." Even if there was like things I wasn't happy with, I was just like, "Here are all the things I'm really grateful about you."

Speaker 1:53:54 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:53:55 And I think he was in shock because for six, seven months prior, it was a lot of stress for both of us.

Speaker 1:54:01 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:54:01 A lot of resentment both sides. But that mindset and attitude was able to get us to a place to, um, find a deal where I sold the company to him, where if, if I didn't come to him from that place of gratitude, I probably wouldn't have been able to sell it to him. And there were other challenges since I exited that we had, but I remember I needed to come from a place of gratitude. I needed to come from a place of calm and peace in order to make some resolution happen. And you have a show. I know we- we're, I'm actually over my time right now, so I wanna be respectful, but your show, How's Work?, deals with a lot of people who are in partnerships and business that like go through different challenges of business, right?

Speaker 1:54:43 So your story could be an episode on How's Work?

Lewis Howes 1:54:47 [laughs] Okay.

Speaker 1:54:47 Complete.

Lewis Howes 1:54:48 Right.

Speaker 1:54:49 You know, um, every... Your story says, "In order for me to deal with my co-founder, I needed to deal with the other part of my resume, my relationship history."

Lewis Howes 1:55:02 My past, yeah.

Speaker 1:55:03 "I needed my past. The past, the way that I had felt that people had used me."

Lewis Howes 1:55:07 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:55:07 "The way that I felt that I've always had to do more."

Lewis Howes 1:55:10 Yeah.

Speaker 1:55:10 "The way that I felt that even when I did more, they still thought that they did the, more than me."

Lewis Howes 1:55:14 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:55:14 "The way that I didn't know if I took them on, that they wouldn't hurt me more."

Lewis Howes 1:55:18 Right.

Speaker 1:55:18 You know? And so my invisible history that is right there as I'm working with my co-founder-

Lewis Howes 1:55:26 That he didn't know about

Speaker 1:55:26 ... that he did not know about, you know? Um, that was, that's an episode of How's Work?

Lewis Howes 1:55:33 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:55:33 That's what we address. I deal with co... It's, it's where should we begin for anybody who's ever had a job?

Lewis Howes 1:55:39 Nice.

Speaker 1:55:39 It's co-founders, colleagues, co- coworkers, family business.

Lewis Howes 1:55:43 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:55:44 65% of co- of startups will fail like yours-

Lewis Howes 1:55:48 Yeah

Speaker 1:55:48 ... because of the relationship between the co-founders.

Lewis Howes 1:55:50 Wow.

Speaker 1:55:50 Just so you know.

Lewis Howes 1:55:51 They fail because of the relationship.

Speaker 1:55:51 That's Wasserman at... Because the relationship-

Lewis Howes 1:55:54 Not because of the economy-

Speaker 1:55:54 No. No

Lewis Howes 1:55:55 ... or because of customers.

Speaker 1:55:55 That's an enormous amount of good ideas that fall apart-

Lewis Howes 1:55:58 Wow

Speaker 1:55:58 ... because the relat- that's, uh, Howard Wasserman at Harvard. That's not my s-

Lewis Howes 1:56:02 Right, right

Speaker 1:56:02 ... statistic here. And what you did is you first of all went and you realized, "I am bringing stuff here-"

Lewis Howes 1:56:09 Of course

Speaker 1:56:09 ... "that I need to acknowledge." Then you went to him. You didn't just do gratitude. You actually did basic reality testing.

Lewis Howes 1:56:16 Yeah.

Speaker 1:56:16 It is true that without him you may not have been-

Lewis Howes 1:56:19 There's no way

Speaker 1:56:19 ... where you were or where you started and all of that.

Lewis Howes 1:56:21 There's no way. Absolutely.

Speaker 1:56:21 It was also true That at a certain moment, you no longer wanted to continue-

Lewis Howes 1:56:27 Right

Speaker 1:56:27 ... be with him.

Lewis Howes 1:56:28 Wow.

Speaker 1:56:28 And it's bo- it's this acknowled- it's the ability to not have to deprive the other of anything they've done-

Lewis Howes 1:56:34 Mm

Speaker 1:56:34 ... in order to justify.

Lewis Howes 1:56:36 Yeah.

Speaker 1:56:37 And to just say, "I know you've done all of this." Of course, when you come to me, and you first acknowledge my contribution, I'm not on the defensive.

Lewis Howes 1:56:44 Yeah.

Speaker 1:56:45 Then you can come, come and say, "I would like to sell you the company."

Lewis Howes 1:56:48 Right.

Speaker 1:56:49 Because I, if you came and you talked about everything you do, I would answer to you with everything I've done.

Lewis Howes 1:56:55 Mm.

Speaker 1:56:55 And everybody's holding their card. But if you come and you tell me what I have done, then I don't have to go into that script, and I can actually choose a different path.

Lewis Howes 1:57:04 Yeah.

Speaker 1:57:05 I don't have to, to, to hold on my credentials and remind you what I have done here.

Lewis Howes 1:57:10 Wow.

Speaker 1:57:10 But this thing about two people who start together, and one starts to do more, and feels that they are pulling, putting in all the effort, and they're the generating one, and that-

Lewis Howes 1:57:19 Mm

Speaker 1:57:19 ... you know, and then the other one is still trying to tell them, you know, "No, no, no, we are equal."

Lewis Howes 1:57:24 Right.

Speaker 1:57:24 And they feel like we are not equal anymore, and it's unfair. And then it taps into, and I know that feeling, used feeling.

Lewis Howes 1:57:31 [laughs]

Speaker 1:57:31 I've been there, you know? And r- one, I-

Lewis Howes 1:57:35 Yeah

Speaker 1:57:35 ... and now you have this past and the present sitting on each other, the personal and the professional, the invisible resume with the re- reality of the workplace. I wish you'd come with your partner to an episode.

Lewis Howes 1:57:46 [laughs]

Speaker 1:57:46 But I invite anybody else in a similar situation to come and do an episode-

Lewis Howes 1:57:51 Wow

Speaker 1:57:51 ... of How's Work?

Lewis Howes 1:57:52 Okay.

Speaker 1:57:53 That, that is, it's riveting.

Lewis Howes 1:57:55 Wow.

Speaker 1:57:55 It's riveting because you tell it now and, and I listen to it like that because you made the connections.

Lewis Howes 1:58:02 Yeah.

Speaker 1:58:02 But the episode is often the opportunity for people to make the connections for the first time.

Lewis Howes 1:58:07 Before they ... Wow.

Speaker 1:58:08 No. With me.

Lewis Howes 1:58:09 In it for the first time.

Speaker 1:58:10 In the session.

Lewis Howes 1:58:11 They're stressed out first.

Speaker 1:58:12 It's a three-hour session-

Lewis Howes 1:58:13 Wow

Speaker 1:58:13 ... that then gets edited. But it's a three-hour session with the colleagues and the co-founders, going exactly into that, you know.

Lewis Howes 1:58:20 Wow.

Speaker 1:58:21 I have two firefighter pilots. They were, they were in Iraq and Afghanistan together, and they then create a company. The company's very successful, and then at one point, one of them wants to go and do something that the other one doesn't wanna do. And their whole question is, were we successful because we had a great idea?

Lewis Howes 1:58:37 Mm.

Speaker 1:58:37 Are we successful because we had each other? I have two Brits who are college friends like you, who say, "Let's do this thing." They start with a f- l- an idea, and it becomes this lucrative, successful communications company, but they can't talk to each other one word.

Lewis Howes 1:58:51 [laughs]

Speaker 1:58:52 You know, and they realize it in the session. So you're telling me the story after the fact.

Lewis Howes 1:58:57 Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:58:58 How's Work? is the actual unearthing of this very dynamic.

Lewis Howes 1:59:02 I'm excited to listen. Where's, where should we begin? It's amazing, so I'm excited to listen to this as well. So anyone who's got a job or entrepreneur or got a co-founder with you, go listen to that right now. Um, they're both on Spotify, right?

Speaker 1:59:14 On Spotify and anywhere else-

Lewis Howes 1:59:16 Apple, Spotify

Speaker 1:59:16 ... where you listen to your podcasts.

Lewis Howes 1:59:17 Okay. Uh, this is a question I've asked you before, I think the last time you came on, but I wanna ask you again to see if it's different.

Speaker 1:59:23 To see [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:59:25 And I'm gonna go back and check them. Um, this is called the three truths. So imagine it's your last day on this earth, and you have to say goodbye. And your body dies, and you go on to the next place, wherever that is. And it could be any year, any time, hundreds of years from now. But eventually, you gotta go. And you've accomplished every dream you can imagine. You've, you know, healed millions of relationships. You've written the books. You've done the speeches. Anything you wanna do, you've created it, but it's all gotta go with you, all of your work, all of your message. But you get to leave behind to the world three things you know to be true from all of your work and life experiences, three lessons that you would share with the world to live by. What would you say are your three truths?

Speaker 2:00:16 The quality of your relationships determines the quality of your life.

Lewis Howes 2:00:20 Mm-hmm. Okay.

Speaker 2:00:27 Hence, make sure that you have a rich life, and invest in your relationships. Nobody's ever died hoping they had worked more.

Lewis Howes 2:00:41 Yeah.

Speaker 2:00:42 Um, and then the next one is make it so that when people remember you, they smile.

Lewis Howes 2:00:49 Hmm. That's a good one. Never heard that one.

Speaker 2:00:52 That they were touched by you in a way that really left them with something to cherish.

Lewis Howes 2:00:57 Hmm.

Speaker 2:00:58 I see so many people in my office as a therapist who, who are left with things that people left them with, that are bitter-

Lewis Howes 2:01:08 Hmm

Speaker 2:01:08 ... cruel, hurtful, and I just think, I want to be remembered with a smile.

Lewis Howes 2:01:15 Wow, that's a good one.

Speaker 2:01:16 As somebody, you know, it was a, it was great to know her, to meet her, to have her in my life, as my mother, as my wife, as my friend, as my boss. Um-

Lewis Howes 2:01:25 Hmm

Speaker 2:01:26 ... if you have that, then you continue to live inside the hearts and minds of others in a way that, um-

Lewis Howes 2:01:34 You leave a positive impact for many years to come.

Speaker 2:01:37 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 2:01:37 That's beautiful. Okay, and the third one?

Speaker 2:01:39 Oh, I thought there were already three. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 2:01:41 The first one was the quality of life, uh, or quality relationships-

Speaker 2:01:44 Determines the quality-

Lewis Howes 2:01:45 ... is the quality of your life.

Speaker 2:01:46 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 2:01:46 Yeah.

Speaker 2:01:46 The second one would have been therefore you invest in your relationships.

Lewis Howes 2:01:51 Okay.

Speaker 2:01:51 Um, nobody has ever really, seriously, uh, people on every deathbed, people will talk about how they wish they had spent more time with their loved ones.

Lewis Howes 2:02:00 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2:02:01 And I actually have to say I don't think I will say that, because I'm doing it.

Lewis Howes 2:02:06 Hmm.

Speaker 2:02:07 Um, and the, but if it was the third one, I think it would be something inspired by what you probably would think. If you have a dream-

Lewis Howes 2:02:16 Hmm

Speaker 2:02:16 ... that has accompanied you your whole life, go ahead and try it-

Lewis Howes 2:02:20 Hmm

Speaker 2:02:20 ... if it's doable.

Lewis Howes 2:02:22 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2:02:24 It would be a pity that you would spend... I mean, there are certain things you won't do. I will never be a pilot, you know? That kind of-

Lewis Howes 2:02:30 Right.

Speaker 2:02:30 But there are certain things that you know you wanna try one day. Just go ahead and dare it.

Lewis Howes 2:02:36 Yeah.

Speaker 2:02:36 What, what, what do you stand to lose-

Lewis Howes 2:02:38 Mm-hmm

Speaker 2:02:38 ... on some of these things? And I think that's a piece that I take from your work, is that-

Lewis Howes 2:02:42 Yeah

Speaker 2:02:42 ... that notion of y- there's just so many ways that you can explain why you don't. Go ahead and dare.

Lewis Howes 2:02:51 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Speaker 2:02:51 Dare yourself on some things. You wanna play that freaking piano, go get yourself a music i-

Lewis Howes 2:02:56 Mm-hmm

Speaker 2:02:56 ... whatever it is, dare.

Lewis Howes 2:02:58 Yeah.

Speaker 2:02:58 And I like that, that I, I take from you.

Lewis Howes 2:03:00 That's great. Thank you. I wanna acknowledge you, Esther, for, for constantly showing up. You bring so much healing to so many people, and clarity, and inspiration. Every time you speak, I swear it's like sound bites of, like, clarity and inspiration to how to live a better life and have better relationships. So I'm so grateful for you. I acknowledge you for this. Where Should We Begin? is amazing. For anyone in an intimate relationship, you have to go watch or listen to it.

Speaker 2:03:24 Season four coming out soon.

Lewis Howes 2:03:25 Season... The first two I listened to were unbelievable. I remember listening in the car, and like-

Speaker 2:03:29 I mean, you have to listen to four when it comes.

Lewis Howes 2:03:31 I will.

Speaker 2:03:31 Three is incredible, but four is even better.

Lewis Howes 2:03:33 Okay. [laughs]

Speaker 2:03:33 They keep getting better is all I can tell you.

Lewis Howes 2:03:36 How's work? I'm excited to dive into. You can listen both on Apple or Spotify or anywhere podcasts are.

Speaker 2:03:40 Anywhere, yep.

Lewis Howes 2:03:42 Um, where else can we support you or how, and follow you? Where do you-

Speaker 2:03:46 I, I, I mean, you know I told you about the newsletter and the blog.

Lewis Howes 2:03:49 Yeah.

Speaker 2:03:50 I really write. People want... I don't always wanna write another book.

Lewis Howes 2:03:53 Where can people get that?

Speaker 2:03:53 On my website, on social, on all the channels.

Lewis Howes 2:03:56 Esther Perel dot com?

Speaker 2:03:57 Estherperel.com.

Lewis Howes 2:03:58 Okay.

Speaker 2:03:58 And, uh, it's monthly. It's, uh, it's really what we are talking about, but in a, on a deeper level-

Lewis Howes 2:04:05 Okay, cool

Speaker 2:04:05 ... so that I can't always do another, you know, book.

Lewis Howes 2:04:08 Yeah.

Speaker 2:04:08 Of course, there's the books.

Lewis Howes 2:04:10 Yeah.

Speaker 2:04:10 Mating in Captivity and The State of Affairs. Um, and there's two other things. If you're a coach or a therapist, it is my training platform, which is called Sessions with Esther Perel.

Lewis Howes 2:04:22 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2:04:22 Where I, like you, bring some of the people that I learn from the most in the field of relationships.

Lewis Howes 2:04:30 Yeah.

Speaker 2:04:30 And then if you're a couple and you feel like your sexuality has sagged and you're on a, in a rut, Rekindling Desire is the place to go.

Lewis Howes 2:04:39 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2:04:39 It's also on the website, and it's the course that you take to kind of reconnect with your erotic self.

Lewis Howes 2:04:45 Hmm. Esther, appreciate you. You're the best. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2:04:48 Thank you.

Speaker 2:04:48 You become what they want you to be even though it's not who you really are.

Lewis Howes 2:04:53 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2:04:53 You get to the end of your life, and can you live with doing what was expected, but never what was destined? Can you live-

Lewis Howes 2:05:02 Ooh, man

Speaker 2:05:03 ... with doing what was expected, but never what was destined?