The KEY TO POWER Lies In Mastering These LAWS | Robert Greene & Lewis Howes

Robert Greene 0:00 And I'm telling you, the key to success in life is people. We're a social animal, you know? We're like dogs or wolves or whatever.

Lewis Howes 0:08 Yeah.

Robert Greene 0:08 Chimpanzees. We're a social animal, and how we interact with people will determine how far we get. You can be brilliant at c- at hacking computers or whatever, but if you're terrible with people, your life is gonna be hell.

Lewis Howes 0:21 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 0:22 So you, are you motivated to become somebody supremely skilled at understanding and working at peop- with people? That's the whole point of the book. [upbeat music]

Lewis Howes 0:47 Welcome, everyone, back to the School of Greatness podcast. We have Robert Greene in the house. Good to see you, my friend.

Robert Greene 0:53 So good to see you, Lewis.

Lewis Howes 0:54 You are one of the most influential writers of the last two decades with your books, 48 Laws of Power, 33 Strategies of War, The 50th Law, Mastery, The Art of Seduction, and now The Laws of Human Nature, which is going to be a massive hit. Make sure you guys get this book. Um, and probably your best work, in your mind, ever, right? Do you think this is your best work?

Robert Greene 1:17 It's hard to say. It's like choosing between your children.

Lewis Howes 1:20 [laughs]

Robert Greene 1:20 Which is your favorite child, you know?

Lewis Howes 1:21 Right.

Robert Greene 1:22 It's the latest, so it, it is... You know, I'm very proud of it, but, um, the thing was I've been for 20 year- over 20 years been writing these books, so massive amounts of research and reading, but also consulting work with people in business and other areas. So I've gathered a lot of int- intelligence or knowledge about people and what makes them tick.

Lewis Howes 1:44 Mm.

Robert Greene 1:45 And I've seen a lot of mistakes that I've made and other people have made. So this is sort of the distillation of all of my years of research and all the things I've experienced.

Lewis Howes 1:55 Wow.

Robert Greene 1:55 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:56 Where, where, where's your biggest insecurity in your life, whether it be when you first started writing books, you know, 20 years ago to where it is now?

Robert Greene 2:05 Well, I'm very insecure. Like-

Lewis Howes 2:07 Really?

Robert Greene 2:08 Yeah, but I try to turn it into something positive. Meaning, when I finish a book, I don't really know if it's g- if it's that good or if it's gonna be successful. Um, I'm, I'm very worried that, uh, I'm not connecting to the reader, to the audience. And so what that does for me is [clears throat] I never kind of rest. I'm never comfortable. I never assume, "Wow, this is a masterpiece. It's gonna do really well." And so when I'm writing the book, and it's been all my books, I'm thinking very, very deeply about the reader. How's the reader going to assimilate this information? Will it help him or her? Will it strike a chord? Will it resonate with their life, what they think of people that they know? So I'm trying to connect very, very deeply to the reader because I'm insecure, because I don't take them for granted. I think where a lot of writers [clears throat] and people go wrong is they believe in their own myth.

Lewis Howes 3:06 Mm.

Robert Greene 3:06 They believe that what they've written is so good, or that they don't have to make that effort to connect to people. You know, a lot of professors or experts or people who are in a partic- a very specific field, they assume that their knowledge is, you know, that, that other people know what they know, and they kind of talk down to the reader. And I never try to talk down to the reader. I try to elevate the, the conversation.

Lewis Howes 3:30 Right. And what would you say is your main insecurity? Is it a, a fear of judgment, that people may not like your writing, or they may not like you, or that you're not good enough? Or what's the main-

Robert Greene 3:42 Probably all of that.

Lewis Howes 3:43 All of it? Yeah.

Robert Greene 3:44 Yeah. Um, [laughs] you know, I, I, I kind of grew up that way. Um, my parents were not the type to coddle me or to say, "You're great, Robert." Or if I came home with straight As, it was like, "Ha ha."

Lewis Howes 3:58 [laughs]

Robert Greene 3:59 "So what? You can do better."

Lewis Howes 4:00 They didn't care that much. Oh, wow.

Robert Greene 4:02 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 4:02 Even if you got a perfect-

Robert Greene 4:02 No, they cared. They cared, but, "Oh, you can always do better."

Lewis Howes 4:06 Even if you got a perfect score?

Robert Greene 4:07 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 4:09 Okay.

Robert Greene 4:09 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 4:10 "You could've done it faster. You could've done..." Yeah.

Robert Greene 4:12 Yeah. It's kind of a Jewish thing, I have to say.

Lewis Howes 4:15 Uh-huh.

Robert Greene 4:15 But, um, so I never felt secure about my work. Um, maybe when I was younger, you know, [clears throat] I, I tried to write. I tried many different forms of writing. I tried writing novels.

Lewis Howes 4:29 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 4:29 And I think in my 20s, I was a little more grandiose. I believed that what I was writing was really great, and it wasn't. It kind of sucked.

Lewis Howes 4:36 [clears throat]

Robert Greene 4:37 So it's been a process of also getting over that kind of youthful exuberance and, you know, taking more time and thinking more deeply about what you're doing. But, um, I have a lot of insecurities. I mean, that's, that's one of them.

Lewis Howes 4:51 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Robert Greene 4:52 You know?

Lewis Howes 4:52 And you talk about detaching from our emotions.

Robert Greene 4:55 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 4:55 Is there, is there more value in detaching from our emotions, or because we are emotional and insecure, we create better work by holding onto those emotions?

Robert Greene 5:08 Well, that's a great question. Um-

Lewis Howes 5:10 Like, if you didn't care, do you think these books would be as, as good as they are?

Robert Greene 5:17 Well, probably the source, to get back to your first question-

Lewis Howes 5:19 Uh-huh

Robert Greene 5:19 ... the source of my insecurity is I kind of have an i- a desire to please people, to impress them. I'm just being very honest here.

Lewis Howes 5:29 Yeah.

Robert Greene 5:29 Um, and this probably went back to very early on. So I've always wanted to get the best grades and be the best pupil in the, in the class. But there's a, there's a weakness in that. It seems great. You're getting straight As. You're doing well in sports, et cetera. But there's actually an insecurity, a, a s- a self-doubt where you're trying to please people, and maybe you go a little extra hard. So in that sense, compensating for your insecurities in that way can be a positive thing. So my insecurity by itself could destroy me [clears throat] in that I would never- Get the effort up to make, write a book or do something.

Lewis Howes 6:07 Hmm.

Robert Greene 6:07 I would-

Lewis Howes 6:07 Would hold you back from putting it out.

Robert Greene 6:08 Yeah, because if I doubt myself, maybe it's better never to try anything. A lot of young people have this problem. Um, they have a negative attitude where they th- they think that, "Well, if I don't do anything, if I just be a slacker, at least I won't fail, and I can kind of make my feel, myself feel better that I'm the best slacker that there is." You know, if you don't try too hard, you're never gonna fail. You're never gonna have the pain of failure. So that's the negative side of insecurity, but it can also motivate you to try even harder to actually get work done-

Lewis Howes 6:41 Hmm

Robert Greene 6:41 ... and to make it something really great, and to doubt yourself constantly, you know, which is how I kind of use that.

Lewis Howes 6:48 Right. Using the doubt to push yourself to put out better work.

Robert Greene 6:52 Yeah. I mean, it probably... You know, I had a... We can get into this. I had a stroke a couple months ago.

Lewis Howes 6:57 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 6:57 Probably is what led to this, and is not a necessarily good thing, but I worked so hard on this book. I was-

Lewis Howes 7:04 Five years.

Robert Greene 7:04 Five years.

Lewis Howes 7:05 Sessing over it, every word, every sentence.

Robert Greene 7:08 Yeah. Yeah, and I was thinking, you know, um, how can I make this more accessible? 'Cause s- a lot of the information I had was from kind of heavy sources, like psychologists, people who, or psychoanalysts who've studied human nature very deeply, and they use a lot of jargon, and you can't really figure out exactly what they're saying, and I wanna make it under- readable for the average reader out there. So the effort, uh, of constantly trying to connect to people is... I think comes from an insecurity, but it, it's turned into something positive.

Lewis Howes 7:43 Yeah, and it's a great-

Robert Greene 7:43 This is a great question. I never had, never been asked this before.

Lewis Howes 7:46 Yeah. Do you feel like it's worth putting out these books that reach millions of people at the detriment of potential health challenges?

Robert Greene 7:56 Yeah. I mean, if you asked me if I could have a choice of not writing the book and never having this physical problem, I would've chosen writing the book.

Lewis Howes 8:04 Really?

Robert Greene 8:05 For sure.

Lewis Howes 8:05 Why is that?

Robert Greene 8:06 Because I have, I may be physically crippled a little bit, and I'll get over it, but I have this for the rest of my life. I can feel really good about myself. I could die tomorrow, and I'd know that I wrote what I wanted to create.

Lewis Howes 8:21 Wow.

Robert Greene 8:21 I expressed what I, my life was meant to express. So that's a great feeling, that even in the worst depression I could have with my body not responding the way I want, I can feel a great deal of pride that I actually got this thing done, and it didn't kill me.

Lewis Howes 8:38 Is there a way to create masterpieces-

Robert Greene 8:41 [laughs] Without doing that?

Lewis Howes 8:43 And staying healthy and peaceful in your mind?

Robert Greene 8:46 Well, you know, you'd think I would've because I exercise every day.

Lewis Howes 8:50 You swim.

Robert Greene 8:51 I swim. I, I, I mean, I'm a fanatic. Even now with my stroke, I'm exercising every day aerobically, and, uh, eat well, and I meditate.

Lewis Howes 9:01 Wow.

Robert Greene 9:02 And I, you know, I do everything right, but it still, it still led to this. Yeah, it's a good question. I think my next book, because-

Lewis Howes 9:09 [laughs]

Robert Greene 9:10 ... I am getting older-

Lewis Howes 9:11 Yeah

Robert Greene 9:11 ... and this happened, I'm gonna have to kind of find a better way to do it a little bit, to still write something shorter with a lot of work, but not maybe take five years.

Lewis Howes 9:22 Right.

Robert Greene 9:22 You know?

Lewis Howes 9:23 Take a year and a half, two years, maybe three years. Yeah, three.

Robert Greene 9:25 Three years, maybe two.

Lewis Howes 9:26 [laughs]

Robert Greene 9:26 Three years. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 9:27 Yeah. Wow. So you're already thinking about the next book?

Robert Greene 9:31 Yeah. Um, in the ambulance on the way home from the hospital, I had an idea for my next book.

Lewis Howes 9:38 Really?

Robert Greene 9:38 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 9:38 What was that?

Robert Greene 9:39 [laughs] Well, it's very, it's very primitive. I've not really totally developed it. But it's about how, um, how the bad things in life, how negative things, um, are actually... I mean, it's similar to Ryan's book, but it's a t- a different spin on it. How they, you actually learn f- more from negative-

Lewis Howes 10:00 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 10:01 ... than the positive.

Lewis Howes 10:02 Yeah.

Robert Greene 10:03 Like, you learn... This is, I, I thought in the ambulance back home, I thought of all of the people I knew who handle adversity terribly. I'm not gonna name names.

Lewis Howes 10:16 Sure, sure. [laughs]

Robert Greene 10:16 Some of them are related to me.

Lewis Howes 10:17 Sure.

Robert Greene 10:18 Who handle adversity really badly, and I thought, "I don't wanna be them." And as I thought about that, I thought, "Hmm, there's something interesting in that thought." Like, who I don't wanna be. We never think like that.

Lewis Howes 10:30 Hmm.

Robert Greene 10:31 But it's actually very interesting. So, um, and it's also getting in touch with, um, learning from your bad experiences, but also, um, it's kind of a book about negativity. And I know that sounds really bad and negative. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 10:49 Sure, sure.

Robert Greene 10:50 But how we're so attached to what we see in life, to what's in front of us, to what the appearances people have, to their masks they wear, and I want you to think of what isn't there, what you're not seeing, what's invisible. I kind of go into it in the ch- in the chapter about generations and trends in society. And all my books, I'm trying to t- tell people, "Don't accept what you see with your eyes. Look for something deeper. What is the meaning behind this? If you're planning a, a, a strategy or making a big decision in your life, what is it that you're not considering?" So it's kind of about negative space.

Lewis Howes 11:28 Hmm.

Robert Greene 11:29 I know it's very primitive, but I'm, I'm-

Lewis Howes 11:31 No, I think-

Robert Greene 11:31 I, I can promise you I'll turn it into something interesting.

Lewis Howes 11:33 I'm sure it'll be beautiful. Yeah. Well, in sports, they always talk about, you know, you learn more from your losses than your wins.

Robert Greene 11:38 That's right.

Lewis Howes 11:38 You're not... Everything's fine when you win. You're like, "Ah, everything's forgiven."

Robert Greene 11:41 That's right.

Lewis Howes 11:42 Like, let's just keep doing it.

Robert Greene 11:43 That's right.

Lewis Howes 11:44 When you're losing, that's when you're like, "Okay." We evaluate everything.

Robert Greene 11:47 That's right.

Lewis Howes 11:47 And everything's about-

Robert Greene 11:47 Well, some people don't. Some people don't know how to do that. But you, that's how you have to profit from your losses.

Lewis Howes 11:53 Yeah.

Robert Greene 11:53 I do that with things I've written that didn't quite work out. You know, I've written books that, uh, I had to completely rewrite, that were dead ends, like the 50 Cent book. I had a f- version of that book that we did together that wasn't working at all, and I learned a lot from what I did wrong there. I learned, for instance, the problem of that book in its first version was that I wasn't being myself.

Lewis Howes 12:19 Hmm.

Robert Greene 12:20 I was trying to be, please him more. And I've learned to always sort of be myself. But I had to learn that by trying to be someone else. So that sort of is what you're talking about.

Lewis Howes 12:29 Interesting. Yeah. Uh, in this book, I think this is fascinating, you have all these different laws about human nature and understanding-

Robert Greene 12:38 [clears throat]

Lewis Howes 12:38 ... why humans do the things they do-

Robert Greene 12:40 Mm

Lewis Howes 12:40 ... why they think, why they feel a certain way. Uh, and you talk about, uh, determining the strength of people's character. How do we understand the strength of someone's character, whether they're toxic, whether they're, they have high values? Besides the s- you know, the things that we can see of like, okay, they broke their word, or they're negative, or things like that, how do we really determine someone's character?

Robert Greene 13:06 Well, the first thing you have to do, [clears throat] the most important thing, is to realize [clears throat] that determining people's character is the most important thing that you have to do in judging them. So normally, we think if someone's very charming, [clears throat] that that's great, or if they're really good-looking, or if they're very successful. So if we're looking, let's say we're looking for a business partner, or a romantic partner, or a colleague to work with, we're gonna base our decision on those kinds of appearances. Like, people can be very good at deceiving you with-

Lewis Howes 13:39 Mm

Robert Greene 13:39 ... being very charming and flattering. Or they have a brilliant resume, and you'll be seduced by that. And what you wanna do, the first step in that law, is to say, "No, that's not how I'm gonna judge people. My main value is their character and the strength of their character." And character is something from deep, deep, deep within. The word character comes from the Greek, um, kharós, which means to carve.

Lewis Howes 14:03 Hmm.

Robert Greene 14:03 And character is something really deeply carved inside the person.

Lewis Howes 14:07 Wow.

Robert Greene 14:07 It's who they are at their core. It creates patterns of behavior that they can't even really control. It's who they are genetically. It's who they are from the early values of their parents. So you wanna connect to that. You wanna see that. It's not immediately visible to you, because people will disguise their character. You wanna see that, and you wanna value it more than anything else. And what you want are people with strong character, and what that means is people, they have a expression for metal, they call it tensile, where m- a metal is stronger if it can give a little bit.

Lewis Howes 14:42 Hmm.

Robert Greene 14:43 And it, because if something is too rigid, if it-

Lewis Howes 14:45 Breaks

Robert Greene 14:45 ... it breaks. So you want people who are adaptable, who can be fluid, who aren't weak, because that metal isn't weak, who have an inner strength and a core to them, but they can bend. They can learn. They can adapt. They can change. You wanna see people, um, who are empathetic, you know? Um, who, who know how to get along with other people. So if you have two people to choose, and one has a glittering resume, but the other person understands human nature and is m- [clears throat] superior in a social sense, and can also, has a good work ethic, you choose that other person. You don't choose necessarily the person with that glittering resume. Um, and so the one, one of the things you look for are patterns in pe- in judging their character. Because people reveal themselves in the past.

Lewis Howes 15:36 Mm.

Robert Greene 15:36 They reveal who they are through their actions.

Lewis Howes 15:38 Hmm.

Robert Greene 15:39 Um, they try and disguise it, but they reveal it. So I say in that chapter, "Nobody ever does anything once." So let's say you have a friend-

Lewis Howes 15:48 Hmm

Robert Greene 15:49 ... who does something kinda nasty to you. They talk behind your back. Then they'll say, "Oh, Robert, Robert, that was just, something came over me. Th- that isn't me. You know, I'm sorry about that. That just happened. So- circumstances made me do that." And you'll be likely to believe them. [clears throat] But the fact is, if they've done that once, they've probably done it many times.

Lewis Howes 16:09 Hmm.

Robert Greene 16:10 If s- people gossip and you hear them gossiping about other people, they'll probably eventually gossip about you. So-

Lewis Howes 16:18 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 16:18 ... you wanna be able to look at people's patterns and look at their past and see, um, trends, and understand that if they've done certain things in the past, they will continue to do them, because we humans have compulsive behavior. We are compelled to repeat the same mistakes over and over and over again.

Lewis Howes 16:37 How do we, how do we, um, stop that pattern? W- if we recognize it within ourselves, my character's been off, I've been doing something, you know, for years a certain way that I don't wanna do anymore, how do we do it so we can strengthen our character, but also say, "You know what? I believe this other person can have a stronger character through breaking a pattern"? Or is it just-

Robert Greene 16:59 Hmm

Lewis Howes 16:59 ... not possible?

Robert Greene 17:00 Of course it's possible. [clears throat] At the end of every chapter, I show you how you can turn this potentially negative quality into a positive quality.

Lewis Howes 17:09 Hmm. Hmm.

Robert Greene 17:10 So [clears throat] when it comes to you and your own patterns, you have to first realize that you have these patterns before you can even begin to break them.

Lewis Howes 17:19 So awareness.

Robert Greene 17:21 Yeah, honesty. This is a book-

Lewis Howes 17:22 Yeah

Robert Greene 17:22 ... about awareness and being honest with yourself. If you don't admit that you have these patterns, then you can't possibly break them. I know in writing books I have t- terrible, terrible patterns.

Lewis Howes 17:33 Like what?

Robert Greene 17:35 Well, stressing so much over things that aren't that important.

Lewis Howes 17:39 Obsessing, stressing, yeah.

Robert Greene 17:40 Obsessing. Um, I take note cards for everything that I read, all my research, and I take way too much-

Lewis Howes 17:49 [laughs]

Robert Greene 17:49 ... too much information. I have, like, thousands of them. I'm writing, and I have to stop, and I say, "Stop being so, such a perfectionist. It's, it's like you're wasting your time." It's been book, after book, after book. I'm very aware of it, and I'm very aware of, of breaking that pattern. But you have to see it and be honest with yourself in order to break it, you know?

Lewis Howes 18:07 Right.

Robert Greene 18:08 So that's the first step, is, is seeing the pattern, and then not struggling against it, not trying to be somebody who you're not, but finding a way- To use that pattern, to use that problem to your advantage. Similar to what Ryan Holiday wrote in his book, The Obstacle Is the Way. I, I have an example in the book of, um, an actress, Joan Crawford, from the Hollywood classical period, and she had a very troubled childhood. Um, didn't know her father. Her mother beat her. Um, men abused her, et cetera. And she managed to take ... And it was creating terrible patterns in her life, and she found a way to turn that around, to use all of those disadvantages and make them, make herself much stronger and, and very powerful performer by bringing all of the pain in her childhood into her acting, by becoming so focused on the director. Because she had been abused, she was very sensitive to other people. She used that sensitivity to focus on the director and other actors to be in tune with them.

Lewis Howes 19:13 To connect with them, to build relationship. Is that essentially-

Robert Greene 19:17 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 19:18 Good.

Robert Greene 19:18 She was very aware of her own weaknesses and her own fragility, and she was able to use that as a strength.

Lewis Howes 19:24 Mm.

Robert Greene 19:25 Um, so with other people, it's never hopeless. I mean, some people are toxic. I talk a lot in there-

Lewis Howes 19:32 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 19:32 ... about toxic characters.

Lewis Howes 19:34 Uh-huh.

Robert Greene 19:34 People, those are the kinds of people who can't really change. Their patterns are too ingrained, and we've all met people like that. We've all had to deal with the narcissist who's so deeply self-absorbed.

Lewis Howes 19:46 [laughs]

Robert Greene 19:47 There's nothing that's ever gonna save them or pull them out of that-

Lewis Howes 19:50 Really

Robert Greene 19:50 ... that self-absorption.

Lewis Howes 19:51 Unless they have, like, a near-death experience or they have someone close to them.

Robert Greene 19:54 That's true.

Lewis Howes 19:55 You know, something where it's like a-

Robert Greene 19:56 That's true

Lewis Howes 19:56 ... big awakening.

Robert Greene 19:57 That's true.

Lewis Howes 19:58 Or they get sick, or whatever, right?

Robert Greene 20:00 You're right. That happens. That does happen.

Lewis Howes 20:02 Sometimes.

Robert Greene 20:03 Sometimes it does. But you have to be honest that there are people out there, you can't be naive, there are people out there who are toxic, who are dangerous, who can ruin your life.

Lewis Howes 20:14 Mm.

Robert Greene 20:14 You hire the wrong person. And, uh, I've, I've dealt with a lot of, in my consulting, with a lot of people who hired a business partner who ended up sort of taking the business from them.

Lewis Howes 20:24 Oh, man. God.

Robert Greene 20:25 Very common scenario. Um, you have to not be naive and recognize these toxic types. And often, it's best not to try and change them, because trying to change them entangles you in a lot of their drama.

Lewis Howes 20:39 And it just, it's just never gonna happen.

Robert Greene 20:42 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 20:42 You might be trying for years and wasting your time and energy.

Robert Greene 20:46 But, you know, people have to be able to, to change themselves, you know? They have to be motivated. You can help illuminate some of their patterns and their problems.

Lewis Howes 20:56 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 20:56 But it has to come from within.

Lewis Howes 20:58 Yeah. Now, you talk about the law of self-sabotage.

Robert Greene 21:01 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 21:02 And, you know, we could self-sabotage ourselves by attracting toxic people, but also, what are other ways that we sabotage ourselves?

Robert Greene 21:12 Well, um, it's, this is a chapter about your attitude in life, right? And, um-

Lewis Howes 21:20 Yeah

Robert Greene 21:20 ... the, the point of that chapter is related to human nature, is none of us see the world in the same way. So you and I could go watch a movie. It's the same movie that we're watching. I love it, I see something. You hate it, you see something else. You don't experience it the same way. We're watching the same world, the same reality, but we experience it differently. Everybody you meet is experiencing their world differently than you are. So you have an attitude that colors what you see, and some people have an attitude that tends towards the negative. And I describe a negative attitude as something that's closed. So you're not open to new experience. You're trying to close that lens. You want s- you, you have certain beliefs, certain, uh, ideas about life, and you're not willing to change them, right? Because that gives you a sense of security. Um, and so you want an attitude that's expansive, where you accept people. You're not always judging them. You're not negative about them. You understand that people, n- can't necessarily help who they are. Um, you're open to change. You're open to being a- to having adventure. And that kind of attitude kind of gives you s- a certain s- degree of freedom-

Lewis Howes 22:40 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 22:40 ... so that the worst thing can happen to you, and you're able to transform that into something good. So, um, what, your question was, um-

Lewis Howes 22:48 How do we recognize when we're sabotaging ourselves, and what's the things we do most to self-sabotage?

Robert Greene 22:58 Well, um, if we have a, a setback or a failure in life, which is inevitable, do we do one of two things? Do we analyze ourselves and see what we did wrong and how we could change ourself, or do we immediately look outward-

Lewis Howes 23:18 Blame, yeah

Robert Greene 23:18 ... and blame other people?

Lewis Howes 23:19 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 23:21 That person screwed me. Society doesn't like me. Because of these circumstances, I'm, I'm screwed, and I can never help it. It's the world, it's not me. That's a self-sabotaging pattern of behavior. Because if you're always pointing fingers at other people and blaming them, you're never gonna learn from your experiences, and you're ob- you're gonna end up being quite bitter. Um, so that's probably one of the most, the main sources of a, of a self-sabotaging

Lewis Howes 23:49 So you could easily say this stupid bee that stung my neck, that caused this blood clot and this high pressure in me, I blame the bee for this, you know, stroke that I had.

Robert Greene 24:00 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 24:01 Screw you, bee. Or you could take responsibility and say, "Well, what did I do to my health-"

Robert Greene 24:06 Yeah

Lewis Howes 24:06 ... "leading up to the bee sting?"

Robert Greene 24:08 Right.

Lewis Howes 24:08 You know, for years, and taking full ownership and responsibility.

Robert Greene 24:11 Right.

Lewis Howes 24:11 Is that what I'm hearing?

Robert Greene 24:12 Yeah, that's what you're hearing. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 24:13 And that, and that, the, the story, the perception around the experience, the way you see that movie playing out.

Robert Greene 24:20 Well, if you-

Lewis Howes 24:20 Having, having a positive attitude around it

Robert Greene 24:22 ... and ref- being, and reflecting about you, the role that you played in what happened. So we can't, we're not in charge of everything that happens in life. There are circumstances that are beyond our control, right? But a lot of what does happen to us is something that-

Lewis Howes 24:40 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 24:40 ... that we do, that we are responsible for. There are amazing studies about the role of attitude and what happens to you in life. So they have this thing called the Pygmalion effect. [clears throat] Um, teachers who treat a student as if they are smart and gonna do well, those students end up doing well, right? So how you treat people, how you think about yourself has a great impact on what happens to you. When doctors prescribe a new medication, there's always the same trend that, um, when a, a new medication has been invented, the success rate is, like, 80%.

Lewis Howes 25:20 Through the roof.

Robert Greene 25:20 Because people believe in it, because it's new. And then, like, a two years later it starts going down because-

Lewis Howes 25:26 Really?

Robert Greene 25:26 ... it's not... Yeah. It's a placebo effect.

Lewis Howes 25:29 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 25:29 So if you believe something is going to work, if you believe that you are great and you de- you deserve good things, that you are a good student, you will end up making those things happen. So how you look at yourself will often determine what ends up happening to yourself. So if you're talking about s- what, what causes self-sabotage, if you go through life thinking, "God, I'm not really that good. You know, there's something wrong with me. I don't really deserve good things. I don't deserve to have a lot of success or to have a lot of money," people read that off of you. A major theme in this book is that we are masters at reading people's body language and non-verbal behavior. So when somebody feels that they don't deserve things, it's kind of an off-putting quality in them.

Lewis Howes 26:17 Hmm. Hmm.

Robert Greene 26:18 And it pushes people away. So you create self-fulfilling dynamics by how you look at yourself and your attitude. I had a chapter in the, The 48 Laws of Power called Think Like a King to Be Treated Like One.

Lewis Howes 26:32 Hmm.

Robert Greene 26:33 And there's story of Christopher Columbus, who came from dirt poor poverty, but imagined that he was royalty. And by imagining that, people started treating him like that. And as they treated him like that, he felt even more kind of greater about himself, and he was able to so, to, uh, convince the King of Portugal to give him these ships, when in fact he was sort of a mediocre admir- uh, a captain.

Lewis Howes 26:57 Hmm.

Robert Greene 26:58 So your attitude and how you think about yourself sort of determine how people treat you and what happens in life.

Lewis Howes 27:04 Yeah. I, you know, I always say that we're either, you know, life's an enrollment game, and we're either enrolling people in our vision or un-enrolling people by the way we're showing up, our energy, our language, what we're not saying.

Robert Greene 27:17 What do you, what do you mean by enrolling? [laughs]

Lewis Howes 27:19 I'm enrolling you to come on my show.

Robert Greene 27:22 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 27:22 And getting you to come on my show because of the energy I put out, the relationship we have-

Robert Greene 27:27 Yeah

Lewis Howes 27:27 ... the connection, the platform. Or I'm un-enrolling you by, by w- the, the way I've treated you over the last six or seven years by-

Robert Greene 27:36 Yeah

Lewis Howes 27:36 ... the platform being out of integrity or not doing that well.

Robert Greene 27:41 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 27:41 You're not gonna be as excited to wanna say yes.

Robert Greene 27:43 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 27:44 You know, we're, we're influencing people all the time.

Robert Greene 27:48 You are influencing people all of the time.

Lewis Howes 27:50 In a positive or negative way, right?

Robert Greene 27:51 Yes. Everything you do, people are reading, and they're either saying, "I like that" or, "I don't like that."

Lewis Howes 27:56 Yes, or-

Robert Greene 27:57 "Or I'm indifferent."

Lewis Howes 27:58 Yeah. Yes is like I'm enrolling you, yes, or I'm not enrolling you. It's a no. And you talk about the, you know, the chapter that I really like is, um, about-

Robert Greene 28:08 Seven. Number seven

Lewis Howes 28:09 ... where are we at here? Where am I at here? Where did I get to?

Robert Greene 28:14 Soften people's resistance.

Lewis Howes 28:15 No.

Robert Greene 28:16 Oh, okay.

Lewis Howes 28:17 Where are we at? The pers-

Robert Greene 28:18 The persuasive

Lewis Howes 28:19 ... the persuasive one.

Robert Greene 28:20 Yeah, seven.

Lewis Howes 28:20 Is that one? Yeah, right here. The five strategies to becoming a master persuader.

Robert Greene 28:25 Is that this one?

Lewis Howes 28:26 Yeah, right here. Seven, yeah.

Robert Greene 28:27 Well, you, Lewis, don't need to read that chapter-

Lewis Howes 28:29 [laughs]

Robert Greene 28:29 ... because you already have that kind of mastered. Um-

Lewis Howes 28:31 But I think people need to understand this.

Robert Greene 28:33 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 28:34 Because I think what we just talked about right there is probably one of the most powerful parts of this whole book, in my mind, and in life, is are you enrolling people in your vision?

Robert Greene 28:47 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 28:47 In, in being the king or queen in getting the ships that you want. Are you, are you stepping up and enrolling people and getting people to say yes to you?

Robert Greene 28:56 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 28:56 Or your dreams, or hire you, or date you, or-

Robert Greene 28:59 Yeah

Lewis Howes 29:00 ... marry you.

Robert Greene 29:00 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 29:01 Or are you not showing up in a way that people wanna say yes to you?

Robert Greene 29:05 Right.

Lewis Howes 29:05 And I feel like-

Robert Greene 29:06 Key question

Lewis Howes 29:07 ... my whole business has been built on getting people to say yes.

Robert Greene 29:11 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 29:11 When I had nothing. You know, I was on my sister's couch 10 years ago.

Robert Greene 29:14 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 29:15 No money.

Robert Greene 29:15 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 29:16 No skills, no degree. And it was an energy that I had to learn how to just get people to say yes.

Robert Greene 29:23 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 29:23 And then more, and then building momentum around that. Um, so I'd love to talk about this, becoming a master persuader, and the first thing you talk about is, which I think most people aren't doing, you say is to deepen your listening.

Robert Greene 29:37 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 29:37 Be a better listener. And most people don't have the patience to care about someone else. They're so concerned about what they think about them.

Robert Greene 29:46 Well, people always talk about being a, a, a better listener, and their advice is usually very weak.

Lewis Howes 29:53 [laughs]

Robert Greene 29:53 I mean, it doesn't, ineffective, because okay, I've become a better listener. Yeah, I'll try that, but it's very hard to overcome certain patterns. So I try to tackle the question of why is it that you're not a good listener? And at the root of that is you're more interested in yourself-

Lewis Howes 30:10 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 30:11 ... than you are in the other person. You will deny that. You will say, "Oh, no, no, no. That's not me. That's not me. I really like people." But the truth is you're more interested in your own thoughts and your own ideas, things that you're so certain about, your own experiences, than about that other person and what they're saying and what's going on inside them. If you can flip that around- If you can actually feel the motivation to get inside Lewis and get inside his head and his experience, then you will suddenly will become a better listener. That's the key, not just telling people to listen more. The key is the quality of the listening and the emotion involved.

Lewis Howes 30:47 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 30:47 So if I feel I want to get inside that other person, inside their life, then suddenly you will start listening. What will make you interested in other people? Well, first o- off is the idea that you don't know them. Normally, when you're, let's say you're on a first date with someone or, or you're just meeting someone, you have assumptions about them. You create a simplified version of who they are, and that's what you think, you know, and that'll stay with you forever. Instead, you wanna think, "That person is more interesting than I imagine. I... Their first appearance isn't really who they are. They're like a, a book that I could read." We love going to movies and getting inside other characters and what motivates them, being taken along for a ride. Think of the people that you meet in life as a character in a movie.

Lewis Howes 31:34 Mm.

Robert Greene 31:35 You wanna know what motivates them. They are more interesting than you think. They've had traumas. They've had problems from their early childhood. They have fantasies. They have a shadow, a dark side to their personality they're not revealing. They're more complicated and interesting than you think. So if you're motivated to understand what makes them tick, their experience, suddenly you will start listening.

Lewis Howes 31:58 Yeah.

Robert Greene 31:59 So that's the key to me, and it's not easy.

Lewis Howes 32:03 Why is it so hard for people? Because for me, it's, it's been an easy thing because I've used my insecurity of not feeling like I was smart enough growing up-

Robert Greene 32:12 Yeah

Lewis Howes 32:12 ... because I was one of the poorer students in school.

Robert Greene 32:15 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 32:16 So I was like, "My voice doesn't matter as much. Let me just ask smart people what they think."

Robert Greene 32:22 Right.

Lewis Howes 32:23 And it, it became a huge advantage for me-

Robert Greene 32:25 Right

Lewis Howes 32:25 ... because I've learned that being the most interested person in the room, you become the most interesting.

Robert Greene 32:32 Well, the key is, really so much in the book is, are you motivated to change yourself? Do you want to become successful in life? This book is trying to realign your priorities and how you look at the world. Normally, your focus is on yourself, and on your work, and the techniques in your work.

Lewis Howes 32:54 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 32:54 You know, the, the skills you have to master, and I'm telling you the key to success in life is people. We're a social animal. You know? We're like dogs, or wolves, or whatever.

Lewis Howes 33:04 Yeah.

Robert Greene 33:04 Chimpanzees. We're a social animal, and how we interact with people will determine how far we get. You could be brilliant at c- at hacking computers or whatever, but if you're terrible with people, your life is gonna be hell.

Lewis Howes 33:18 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 33:19 So you, are you motivated to become somebody supremely skilled at understanding and working at pe- with people? That's the whole point of the book. You have to buy into that. You have to buy into the fact that you're usually bad at dealing with people. You're not seeing who they are. You're seeing reflections of your own, your own fantasies or projections. You have to admit that you're not good at dealing with people, and you need to improve. If you're that, if you understand that and you wanna change, and you're motivated to get out of your shell, then you can make that leap. I'm a big advocate of baby steps. You're not gonna suddenly transform yourself into Bill Clinton overnight.

Lewis Howes 33:58 Right, right.

Robert Greene 33:58 Right?

Lewis Howes 33:59 And remember every, thousands of people's names, and yeah.

Robert Greene 34:01 Or suddenly become a great listener.

Lewis Howes 34:03 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 34:04 So every day, you, you give yourself little tests. So you have now lunch with this person who you normally find kind of boring.

Lewis Howes 34:12 [laughs]

Robert Greene 34:13 All right, for 10 minutes, I'm gonna f- I'm gonna shut off my internal monologue, and I'm gonna force myself to listen to them. And I'm gonna glean some information, some nugget about their character that I never understood before. I'm gonna ask them about their childhood. I'm not gonna be like cl- it's, it's not gonna be the kind of inquisition where I'm asking them, you know, penetrating questions. But I, in a relaxed mood, I'm gonna find out about something that, that really motivates them, or something deep, or some traumatic experience they had. You, you force yourself day by day to take little baby steps in which you try to learn something about people that you didn't know before-

Lewis Howes 34:52 Yeah

Robert Greene 34:52 ... and get interested in them and their experiences.

Lewis Howes 34:54 I think a lot of people are asking the wrong questions too. I think you gotta start learning to ask different questions.

Robert Greene 35:00 Like what? What do you mean?

Lewis Howes 35:02 I think a lot of questions are very servicey. And I know you wanted to keep it relaxed as well. You don't need to be like, "Tell me your darkest secret ever."

Robert Greene 35:08 Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 35:09 But it's also, there's ways you can start opening that up, and I think, for me, I know if I wanna get the most out of someone, I have to give the most myself.

Robert Greene 35:16 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 35:16 I have to start with vulnerability or opening up in certain ways.

Robert Greene 35:20 That's right.

Lewis Howes 35:20 I can't just expect someone else to open up if I don't.

Robert Greene 35:23 Right.

Lewis Howes 35:23 But I think, uh, certain questions, like if you're meeting someone for the first time, as opposed to what do you do, or where do you work, it's what are you most excited about right now?

Robert Greene 35:33 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 35:34 Or what's something you've been having a challenge with in your life lately?

Robert Greene 35:37 Well, the thing I tell people to look for, because I'm a very big believer in non-verbal communication.

Lewis Howes 35:41 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 35:42 In the course of a conversation, if you, if you keep it kind of open and flowing, people's eyes will light up when a certain topic is mentioned. It could be their children.

Lewis Howes 35:52 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 35:52 It could be their work. It could be their parent. It could be something in their life that their whole body language changes. They relax. I know if you suddenly asked me about the Los Angeles Lakers, I would-

Lewis Howes 36:05 Be excited?

Robert Greene 36:06 I would be very excited, because that's one of my deep passions in life is basketball and the Lakers.

Lewis Howes 36:11 Yeah.

Robert Greene 36:11 But people-

Lewis Howes 36:11 Well, you got, you got my hometown guy, LeBron James.

Robert Greene 36:13 Oh, you're from Cleveland.

Lewis Howes 36:14 I'm from Ohio.

Robert Greene 36:15 Wow.

Lewis Howes 36:15 I'm from Ohio, but I-

Robert Greene 36:17 How do you feel about this?

Lewis Howes 36:18 I feel bittersweet, because-

Robert Greene 36:20 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 36:20 ... I wish he stayed in Cleveland.

Robert Greene 36:21 Oh, you do? [clears throat]

Lewis Howes 36:22 I wanted him to win one more there, but you know, I live in LA now, so it's nice that he's here at least.

Robert Greene 36:26 Yeah, yeah.

Lewis Howes 36:27 And then I can go to some games and watch him.

Robert Greene 36:28 That's right.

Lewis Howes 36:29 'Cause I didn't get to go watch games in Cleveland, so.

Robert Greene 36:31 That's right.

Lewis Howes 36:31 So I'm like, you know, if he's gonna go anywhere, [clears throat] this is the place to be.

Robert Greene 36:36 That's right.

Lewis Howes 36:36 Yeah.

Robert Greene 36:36 That's right. That's good.

Lewis Howes 36:37 Yeah.

Robert Greene 36:37 Yeah. I never used to like LeBron, but now I love him. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 36:39 But now you love him.

Robert Greene 36:40 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 36:40 Greatest player in the world, yeah.

Robert Greene 36:41 He is, [laughs] for sure.

Lewis Howes 36:44 So you light up about that. Look at you, you're getting excited talking about it.

Robert Greene 36:46 You can see it. If somebody inadvertently brought that up, they could see, like, "God, oh wow, man, I look at, talk for hours about the Lakers," you know?

Lewis Howes 36:53 Wow.

Robert Greene 36:53 But they're, everybody has a topic like that. It could be something a little more intellectual, more interesting than, than sports, but-

Lewis Howes 36:58 Right

Robert Greene 36:59 ... look for, you're not paying attention to people's body language is another thing. So as an observer, as a good listener, you're not just hearing their words. You're looking at their eyes, their, their facial expressions. I have a chapter on that, how to differentiate between the fake smile and the genuine smile.

Lewis Howes 37:19 Wow.

Robert Greene 37:19 And it, and it's, and it's very real. You know, a, a real smile lights up the whole face. It alters how the eyes look. You wanna see when you hit something like that, or when you've done the opposite and you get that kind of scowling microexpression.

Lewis Howes 37:32 [laughs]

Robert Greene 37:32 Like, oh, fuck you. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 37:33 That's great.

Robert Greene 37:33 Right?

Lewis Howes 37:34 Yeah.

Robert Greene 37:34 But people aren't observant.

Lewis Howes 37:36 Mm.

Robert Greene 37:36 They're, they're in their own shell. They're not seeing. People are constantly giving out signs of their likes, their aversions-

Lewis Howes 37:44 Mm

Robert Greene 37:44 ... you know, their values, and you're missing them because you're not paying attention.

Lewis Howes 37:47 Is it 'cause we're too obsessed with how we look or what other people are judging about us?

Robert Greene 37:52 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 37:52 Is that why we're closed off or not observant?

Robert Greene 37:55 I think it becomes kind of a habit, and that's a main part of it, that we're worried about how we look and how they're judging us. But also part of that habit is, you know, life is difficult in this world, in the modern world. We're absorbing too much information on our phones-

Lewis Howes 38:13 Yeah

Robert Greene 38:13 ... et cetera. And, and, and, and it's very, you know, competitive world out there. So naturally we turn inward. Naturally we're thinking about ourselves. We're thinking about what we need to do, you know, our own anxieties, or-

Lewis Howes 38:28 To get ahead, yeah

Robert Greene 38:28 ... they're talking, and I'm thinking about, "Shit, I have to, I gotta change that appointment tomorrow," kinda thing. 'Cause you're thinking about your own problems, et cetera. And naturally so. But the whole thing is, is my books are all about getting outside of yourself and finding other people more interesting than yourself-

Lewis Howes 38:48 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 38:49 ... in some ways.

Lewis Howes 38:50 Yeah. I'm always doing that.

Robert Greene 38:51 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 38:52 I'm always trying to do that.

Robert Greene 38:52 You don't, you don't need this book. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 38:53 Yeah, I know. This is great, though. I, I think you, you know, for me, I do need this book because there's always another level of, like, what am I missing? What am I not seeing, and how can I get to where I wanna be faster? You talk about infect people with-

Robert Greene 39:06 Yeah

Lewis Howes 39:06 ... the proper mood.

Robert Greene 39:07 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 39:08 What does that mean, and how do we do this?

Robert Greene 39:10 Well, this is a key to influence and persuasion. I'm trying to make the case in this book about human nature that we are animals, that we have an animal side to our nature that you have to understand. And we are extremely vulnerable to the emotions and moods of other people. I trace that back to how we evolved as primates, um, and ha- the need our ancestors had for understanding the moods of the people in the tr- in the group or the tribe before language was invented.

Lewis Howes 39:43 Wow.

Robert Greene 39:43 So we're extremely vulnerable to the moods and attitudes of other people. If someone visits us and they're in a depressed mood, it will tend to lower our energy. We've all had the experience. Think of it yourself. You go through life and you encounter 10 different people, and there's always one in those 10 people that kinda makes you feel happy.

Lewis Howes 40:06 Yeah.

Robert Greene 40:07 The moment you meet them, an old friend or whomever, wow, you're smiling, you're laughing. The, your mood changes.

Lewis Howes 40:12 Right.

Robert Greene 40:12 And there's one in 10 that every time you meet them, [laughs] it's, you feel like, "Man."

Lewis Howes 40:16 Your mood changes in a bad way.

Robert Greene 40:17 Badly.

Lewis Howes 40:19 Yeah.

Robert Greene 40:19 Well, it's because you're feeling something. It's not just the fact that you're a friend. There's something non-verbal going on. Our moods are extremely contagious. And so you can persuade people more through you infecting them with your mood than through your words.

Lewis Howes 40:36 True.

Robert Greene 40:37 Words are not necessarily the best means of, of influence.

Lewis Howes 40:40 Energy.

Robert Greene 40:41 Energy.

Lewis Howes 40:42 The way you show up.

Robert Greene 40:43 Attitude.

Lewis Howes 40:43 It's like if there's a negative room, or people are having a negative conversation, and there's 10 people, and someone enters it with a positive energy and just starts connecting with each person, you see the mood lift in a positive way.

Robert Greene 40:56 Right.

Lewis Howes 40:56 But it could also be if everyone's having a good time and one person comes in-

Robert Greene 40:59 A downer

Lewis Howes 41:00 ... and is, like, just being negative and taking everyone down and saying stupid stuff. You're like-

Robert Greene 41:04 We've all been through that

Lewis Howes 41:05 ... then everyone's mood goes down. Again, goes back to life is an enrollment game. You're either enrolling people in the way you wanna show up-

Robert Greene 41:11 Right

Lewis Howes 41:11 ... or they're enrolling you in that energy.

Robert Greene 41:14 Well, so this, this should be, like, a really exciting concept to you, the, the reader.

Lewis Howes 41:20 Yeah.

Robert Greene 41:20 Because what it means is-

Lewis Howes 41:22 You can change

Robert Greene 41:23 ... you can, you can alter people by how you-

Lewis Howes 41:26 Your energy

Robert Greene 41:26 ... approach them with your energy.

Lewis Howes 41:27 Absolutely.

Robert Greene 41:28 Right? So I mean, I wrote about that a lot in The Art of Seduction. Um, Errol Flynn was probably the greatest seducer that ever lived. If we counted the number of women he slept with, it's-

Lewis Howes 41:38 [laughs] Wow

Robert Greene 41:39 ... close to 3,000.

Lewis Howes 41:40 Wow.

Robert Greene 41:41 And he only, he died when he was 50.

Lewis Howes 41:43 Wow.

Robert Greene 41:43 So if you do the math, it's pretty insane.

Lewis Howes 41:45 [laughs] Wow.

Robert Greene 41:46 He was an, an unbelievable seducer, and I researched this as deeply as I could. Why? And women would write memoirs about it, and they would-

Lewis Howes 41:55 No way

Robert Greene 41:55 ... mention their expe- and they said being around Errol Flynn was like having drunk three martinis. He was so relaxed and so comfortable with himself. He had a kind of animal spirit where he was just really himself and very comfortable, very open, that being around him, you just, you felt all of your resistance and all your defenses just melting away.

Lewis Howes 42:18 [laughs]

Robert Greene 42:19 I, uh, there were other great seducers. Like, Duke Ellington was like that.

Lewis Howes 42:21 Wow.

Robert Greene 42:22 So on the level of seduction in, in m- male or female, how you approach them, your mood, more than what you say about yourself and your own insecurities, will have a much greater impact.

Lewis Howes 42:33 More than the pickup lines or whatever, it's the energy-

Robert Greene 42:36 I, I believe so

Lewis Howes 42:36 ... the, and the confidence.

Robert Greene 42:38 A relaxed, undefensive quality is, will, will go very far. I remember-

Lewis Howes 42:43 How did he, how did he die?

Robert Greene 42:45 Alcohol.

Lewis Howes 42:46 Wow. That's bad.

Robert Greene 42:47 He was just, he was a major alcoholic. He drank himself to death.

Lewis Howes 42:50 He probably was unfulfilled.

Robert Greene 42:51 Huh?

Lewis Howes 42:52 He was probably unfulfilled.

Robert Greene 42:53 Well, yeah, you know.

Lewis Howes 42:53 Chasing... [laughs]

Robert Greene 42:54 3,000 women, it could be kind of a, it gets kind of soulless after a while.

Lewis Howes 42:58 Oh my gosh, yeah.

Robert Greene 42:59 Well, he was a great, he's a very interesting character. But I remember I was in, uh, Paris when I was 21. I was living there. I was working in a hotel, and there was a man... It was a hotel where all the models stayed, and there was this Brazilian man who was obsessed with all the models in the hotel, and he was the greatest seducer I'd ever seen in my life. And, uh, one day I was walking down the street with him and some other friends, and this other woman came running up. She realized he was this, a seducer and h- was not, had not been honest and was cheating on her. And I will never forget how he responded. He was so relaxed and so undefensive about it, and he didn't apologize. He was just, "This is who I am," more or less in his body language.

Lewis Howes 43:44 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 43:44 And she completely relaxed and changed, you know. And I, I thought, "God, normally it would've been this yelling match," and he completely diffused it with his sort of relaxed attitude, you know. So it's a whole language that you need to master, is how your moods affect other people. And I s- tell people, experiment with that.

Lewis Howes 44:05 Yeah.

Robert Greene 44:06 Normally, with this one person, you're locked in a dynamic where you always are kind of reacting the same way. Try next time approaching them with a completely different mood. Think something differently about them. Suddenly force yourself to think that this person is really, really, like, good-looking and exciting and seductive, and you'll see that your thinking of them in a certain way will change how they respond to you.

Lewis Howes 44:33 Wow.

Robert Greene 44:34 You know?

Lewis Howes 44:34 As opposed to being defensive and guarded and reactive and angry.

Robert Greene 44:37 Judgemental.

Lewis Howes 44:38 Yeah.

Robert Greene 44:39 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 44:39 And you said you do not judge other people; you accept them as they are.

Robert Greene 44:43 Well, that's a key throughout the whole book.

Lewis Howes 44:45 You're not gonna influence people if you're judging them, right?

Robert Greene 44:48 That's the key through the whole book. The book starts with a quote from Schopenhauer meaning that if you come across people who are bad, just think of them as, or as toxic, just think of them as s- a kind of mineral that you're ex- that you're encountering, that you're a scientist. People are all different. You're not going to change them. They are who they are because of their circumstances. And instead of judging everyone, learn to accept them and to kind of understand that you, you are fatal- you are flawed, and so are they. So kind of get rid of your superiority.

Lewis Howes 45:23 Yeah, 'cause that's not gonna influence them. If you're trying to persuade them to do something, judging them and making them wrong is only gonna make people more defensive, right?

Robert Greene 45:32 Well, that's true, but the other point is your superiority, your sense of superiority is usually not justified.

Lewis Howes 45:40 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 45:41 I'm making the point in this book, the, the number one thing about human nature is that we tend to deny that there is such a thing. I'm not aggressive. I'm not narcissistic. I never feel envy. I don't have a bad side to me. It's the other people, right?

Lewis Howes 45:54 Sure.

Robert Greene 45:56 Right?

Lewis Howes 45:56 Yeah.

Robert Greene 45:56 I don't have any of these bad qualities.

Lewis Howes 45:58 No. [laughs] We all do that at some point.

Robert Greene 45:59 We all... Yeah. You have these qualities as well as anyone else. If you can be honest with yourself, you'll be a little more humble-

Lewis Howes 46:07 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 46:07 ... and realize you're not so perfect and not superior, which will make you less judgemental about other people.

Lewis Howes 46:13 Yeah. And you said, you just talked about this, but, um, thinking of the person in the best light as they're generous and caring, uh, or thinking that they're good-looking. You know, thinking that-

Robert Greene 46:26 Yeah

Lewis Howes 46:26 ... will help you, your energy show up in a different way to potentially persuade them.

Robert Greene 46:30 It will alter the dynamic.

Lewis Howes 46:32 Of the conversation, right.

Robert Greene 46:33 I have a story in there of, um, of, in the next chapter, of this great Russian writer, Chekhov, who came from the worst, the poorest circumstances. His father beat him every day. He lived in the most miserable village in Russia. Then his family abandoned him to go to Moscow and left him alone in this, in this village. And he said, "God, I could end up being the most, the most bitter person and hating everybody and hating my life, and I don't want to let that happen to me." [clears throat] There's a chapter about how to ch- how to change your attitude. "And instead, I'm gonna accept my father. I'm gonna learn to love him."

Lewis Howes 47:13 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 47:14 "He grew up under terrible circumstances. He's beating me because his father beat him. I'm gonna understand him, and I'm gonna accept him, and I'm gonna love him. I'm gonna do the same about my mother. I'm gonna do the same about my alcoholic brother." And then he moved to Moscow to be with them, and he moved into this house with eight people who were miserable, fighting-

Lewis Howes 47:32 Toxic

Robert Greene 47:32 ... bitter, hating, toxic. And his attitude and his acceptance of them completely altered everything. He got his father out of the house and into a better job. He changed his, you know, he got his, his siblings to start reading and to, to think of higher things than just-

Lewis Howes 47:48 Mm

Robert Greene 47:48 ... their petty feelings. He changed the dynamic by how he th- uh, how he thought of them.

Lewis Howes 47:55 Wow.

Robert Greene 47:56 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 47:57 One person can change the whole dynamic.

Robert Greene 47:58 That's right.

Lewis Howes 48:00 Or the whole dynamic can change the one person.

Robert Greene 48:02 That's right.

Lewis Howes 48:03 And you say that when you wanna persuade someone, they can't feel like they're being coerced or manipulated. They must choose to do whatever it is you want them to do, or they must at least experience it as, as their choice.

Robert Greene 48:15 Well, this is the key to this particular chapter, but it's the key to the whole book, is people have what I call a self opinion. They have a way that they look at themselves. I said there are three universals to the self opinion. Practically every human being has them. Number one, we all think that we're autonomous, that when we make a decision, we weren't manipulated. We did it on our own. We're independent. Number two, that we're intelligent, that we're smart, that we know what we were doing. It d- doesn't mean that you feel like you're an intellectual. A plumber thinks that he knows plumbing better than anyone. That makes him feel like he's intelligent in his own way. And the third is that we're good people, that we treat people well. Now, none of these might be true, but we all tend to believe them, that that's who we are. Then there'll be other components to that. "Oh, I'm very in- independent, self-reliant person," or, "I'm a great rebel. I'm anti-authoritarian," or et cetera. So you have an opinion about yourself, and if someone tries, says something that challenges that opinion of yourself inadvertently, if they make you feel that you're kind of stupid or that you don't know what you're talking about, or that you're, you're doing something because you were manipulated, that you didn't choose to do it, or that you're really not such a good person, we will suddenly get extremely defensive and closed off, and nothing, uh, you will ever say or do will change that. We will, you can, it can even turn into hatred or-

Lewis Howes 49:46 Wow

Robert Greene 49:46 ... some like bitter feelings. Most of the time we're going around and we're not doing that, but we're not, uh, necessarily feeding people's self-opinion. The number one need that humans have, I want you to remember this, is to feel validated by other people. We all-

Lewis Howes 50:03 That's the number one need.

Robert Greene 50:03 The number one need. William James, the great psychologist, said that. It's not just me. People want to feel recognized and validated by other people. We can feel good about ourselves, but if we don't get that from other people, if they don't validate that we're smart, intelligent, independent, it's hard to, to feel that. So we're all craving that validation.

Lewis Howes 50:24 Constantly.

Robert Greene 50:25 Constantly. If you're able to give people some of that validation, if you're able to feed their self-opinion without being a flatterer, 'cause, you know, people do have good qualities and you can actually recognize them.

Lewis Howes 50:39 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 50:40 But if you can validate their self-opinion, suddenly their defenses go down and you have room to maneuver them, to persuade them, to influence them.

Lewis Howes 50:47 You talk about a, uh, being an ally to their insecurities, and you say by, by praising and flattery is a great strategy like you just said, but not... There's praise and strategy, but then there's manipulation. So what's the dance between the two?

Robert Greene 51:05 Well, if you flatter someone and it's clear that, that it's, you're after something, you've already validated their s- um, sorry, you already, um, violated their self-opinion because it's clear that, that you think that they're someone that can be manipulated.

Lewis Howes 51:20 Mm.

Robert Greene 51:21 So you're telling them, "Oh, you're not so independent as you think. I can, I can trick you." And that doesn't work. We see through some obvious flattery. So that connection-

Lewis Howes 51:32 You can't flatter someone and then say, "Oh, can you do this for me?" right afterwards.

Robert Greene 51:34 Well, that's, that's, that's pretty obvious.

Lewis Howes 51:37 Yeah.

Robert Greene 51:37 Yeah. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 51:37 Yeah. [laughs]

Robert Greene 51:39 But also, um, if you flatter someone about something that everybody flatters them about, then it's clear what you're after, that you're j- you're doing something. So you wanna find those qualities that no one's been flattering them about-

Lewis Howes 51:53 Right

Robert Greene 51:53 ... but that they feel insecure about.

Lewis Howes 51:55 Uncertain about.

Robert Greene 51:57 Right.

Lewis Howes 51:57 And, and insecure about.

Robert Greene 51:57 Now, what would that be for you, Lewis?

Lewis Howes 51:59 [sighs] Oh, man, probably like that I'm a good writer. You know, it's like-

Robert Greene 52:06 Uh

Lewis Howes 52:06 ... I believe that I'm a good writer-

Robert Greene 52:07 Uh-huh

Lewis Howes 52:08 ... but it's like I'm not as good as you, you know? It's like I'm not as, like a Ryan Holiday or...

Robert Greene 52:12 So now all of your listeners know that. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 52:14 Yeah. Tell me, "You have a great book, Lewis. I loved reading it."

Robert Greene 52:17 [laughs] "Your writing is, is amazing."

Lewis Howes 52:18 There you go. [laughs]

Robert Greene 52:19 "You're on Ryan's level completely."

Lewis Howes 52:20 [laughs]

Robert Greene 52:22 Um-

Lewis Howes 52:22 Exactly

Robert Greene 52:22 ... so to, to get to that point, though, you have to understand people. You have to see who they are. You have to understand what their insecurities would be. Generally, you don't wanna flatter people about what everybody else is flattering them about.

Lewis Howes 52:37 Yeah, yeah.

Robert Greene 52:37 It's too obvious.

Lewis Howes 52:38 Yeah.

Robert Greene 52:39 Um, so sometimes, for instance, [clears throat] a person will be very, is very Machiavellian, uh, is very clever and strategic, and if you flatter them about that, um, thinking that that, you know, that's, you know who they are, et cetera-

Lewis Howes 52:57 Uh-huh

Robert Greene 52:57 ... you're actually gonna i- insult them, because they don't wanna think of themselves as being Machiavellian. They think that they're doing these things for a good cause, for a good reason. So you wanna find a different avenue, a different way of approaching them. To say, "Wow, you won that election, and because you, you, you're gonna do great things with it." You know, flattering their i- their values, their sense of-

Lewis Howes 53:21 Mm

Robert Greene 53:21 ... of goodness.

Lewis Howes 53:22 The impact you're making and-

Robert Greene 53:24 Yeah

Lewis Howes 53:24 ... how you're helping people.

Robert Greene 53:25 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 53:26 Yeah, I think it's, um, I think it's figuring that out and figuring out what's... It, y- and the way you do that is by being a good listener, I think.

Robert Greene 53:35 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 53:35 And a good observer.

Robert Greene 53:36 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 53:36 By not just observing the obvious, but observing the unobvious.

Robert Greene 53:41 Right.

Lewis Howes 53:41 And you have to get out of your own self to be interested in someone else.

Robert Greene 53:44 Yeah, all these things are interconnected that-

Lewis Howes 53:45 Exactly

Robert Greene 53:46 ... we've been talking about.

Lewis Howes 53:47 And then you talk about using people's resistance and stubbornness. They are often most people with deeper levels of insecurity and low self-opinion.

Robert Greene 53:57 Well, um, this is tricky. This is kind of advanced influence. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 54:01 [laughs] Yes.

Robert Greene 54:01 You know? This is like-

Lewis Howes 54:02 Advanced seduction.

Robert Greene 54:04 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 54:04 Yes.

Robert Greene 54:05 Yes. Where, um, it's basically reverse psychology.

Lewis Howes 54:08 Okay.

Robert Greene 54:09 And y- the best example is, like a rebellious teenager who doesn't wanna do their homework, who doesn't wanna be told what to do. You have to realize that you telling them what to do feeds into their rebellious nature and just makes them more dis- defensive. But if you go with their resistance and go with their feeling of, of being a rebel, you can actually work within their mindset and get them to change.

Lewis Howes 54:34 Mm.

Robert Greene 54:34 I have an example of a, of a student who's thrown out of school, uh, because he's not studying hard enough, and, um, and the teacher says, um, he's gonna have to do all of this work at home in order to graduate. And he's gonna have to study at home, but I can't have him in school 'cause he's, like, dealing drugs, et cetera. And the kid is like, "Goddamn it, I'm not gonna study at all. Fuck that guy. You know, I'm just gonna be a slacker." And his mother went to an a- a psychologist who trained her about how to use reverse psychology and said, "Look, you try and get him to study will make him worse. Do... Try this approach. Try telling him that the teacher wants him to fail. The teacher gave him all of this work knowing that he wouldn't succeed-

Lewis Howes 55:24 Wow

Robert Greene 55:25 ... because he knows you're a slacker. And if you could prove him wrong, can you imagine how great that will feel to show that, that asshole up? So, if you study hard and actually graduate, you'll make him look like a fool." And it, it worked.

Lewis Howes 55:38 It worked.

Robert Greene 55:38 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 55:39 Wow.

Robert Greene 55:40 I mean-

Lewis Howes 55:41 It's pr- I, I... Proving people wrong is some of the most powerful energy and fire that I think-

Robert Greene 55:46 Right

Lewis Howes 55:47 ... humans have. I think that's, that's was my entire life, was proving everyone wrong about, like, kids who made fun of me, and bullies, and the guy who sexually abused me, and all these things.

Robert Greene 55:58 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 55:58 I was like, "I'm gonna prove everyone wrong."

Robert Greene 56:00 Wow.

Lewis Howes 56:00 And it worked.

Robert Greene 56:01 Powerful motivator.

Lewis Howes 56:02 It worked until it didn't, until I realized, man, I'm still suffering inside-

Robert Greene 56:08 Uh-huh

Lewis Howes 56:08 ... and I'm not fulfilled.

Robert Greene 56:09 Uh-huh.

Lewis Howes 56:10 And it wasn't until about five years ago when I started opening up about everything I was insecure about or holding onto and frustrated about, when I realized, like, okay, yeah, that got me to where I'm at and it helped me accomplish a lot of things, but I'm still unfulfilled. And when I started to say, "How can I prove people right and lift other people up, whether they doubted me or hurt me or not, and focus on that energy?" That's when I be- became so much more fulfilled, so much more peaceful-

Robert Greene 56:39 That's amazing

Lewis Howes 56:41 ... and more driven.

Robert Greene 56:42 Uh-huh.

Lewis Howes 56:42 To impact more people as opposed to prove a handful of people wrong.

Robert Greene 56:46 That's right. Well, uh, that's sort of a lot of what I'm talking about in the book, is your ability to be aware of yourself and honest with yourself, and say that this isn't ultimately fulfilling-

Lewis Howes 56:57 Right

Robert Greene 56:58 ... and that what I think is this strong thing is actually a weakness of mine, and I'm gonna work against that. That's sort of the whole point of the book, is knowing who you are, knowing your, your, your weaknesses, knowing what has, what really motivates you, because it was your self-awareness that was able to make you change.

Lewis Howes 57:16 Yeah. And my self-awareness in the beginning for 30 years was, like, this is the way it needs to be in order for me to achieve.

Robert Greene 57:24 Was there a-

Lewis Howes 57:24 It worked

Robert Greene 57:25 ... was there a particular experience that, that provoked this?

Lewis Howes 57:27 I mean, I was sexually abused when I was five by a man. My brother was in prison for four years, and I didn't have friends during that time because the neighborhood parents wouldn't let their kids hang out with me.

Robert Greene 57:37 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 57:38 I was, you know, in the special needs classes all through elementary school and had a tutor through college because I couldn't read and write.

Robert Greene 57:45 Wow.

Lewis Howes 57:46 So, just getting, feeling, like, very insecure around, you know, everything. I wasn't a good student. I didn't learn in the, the structure that school was built for us. I learned from sports. So, I put all my energy into proving people wrong in sports, 'cause I could learn from moving my body, from listening to a coach, and applying it right then, and failing and learning and, [clears throat] and that structure was a better format for learning for me.

Robert Greene 58:11 Well, was this something that happened five years ago that triggered-

Lewis Howes 58:13 Oh, yeah. Five years ago. I, I started, I went through a... [laughs] I, I, I write about this in my book, The Mask of Masculinity, and talked about it many times. But I had a, a bad fight. I was playing basketball down the street, pickup game with a bunch of people, and got in a bad fight. Like, a real fist fight, and blood everywhere and-

Robert Greene 58:33 Wow.

Lewis Howes 58:34 And I had this awakening right afterwards of fear. I was like, "What did I just do?" I didn't get in a fight with someone.

Robert Greene 58:40 Were you the instigator?

Lewis Howes 58:42 We were both kind of the instigators. He hit me first, but we're like, you know, talking trash the whole game-

Robert Greene 58:47 Yeah

Lewis Howes 58:47 ... and hard fouling and, you know-

Robert Greene 58:49 Yeah

Lewis Howes 58:49 ... playing a hard game. But he actually hit me first, so that... But who knows? I instig- I could have diffused the s- the situation-

Robert Greene 58:57 Right

Lewis Howes 58:57 ... at any time.

Robert Greene 58:58 Right.

Lewis Howes 58:58 I could have backed away. I could have been calmer, all these things.

Robert Greene 59:01 So, that made you reassess yourself?

Lewis Howes 59:03 Yeah. It made me realize I'd achieved all these things. I was, you know, successful or whatever with these accomplishments, but I was like, "Why am I still angry? Why am I still-

Robert Greene 59:13 Right.

Lewis Howes 59:14 "Why am I still reactive to this nonsense that's nothing?" It's a little pickup basketball game, and yet I take it so personally-

Robert Greene 59:22 Yeah

Lewis Howes 59:22 ... and feel like this person is attacking my masculinity, my manhood, my life, my credibility-

Robert Greene 59:28 Yeah

Lewis Howes 59:28 ... everything.

Robert Greene 59:29 Wow.

Lewis Howes 59:30 So, I would defend myself.

Robert Greene 59:31 Wow.

Lewis Howes 59:32 Any time someone said something negative about me, I had to defend myself.

Robert Greene 59:35 Wow.

Lewis Howes 59:35 It's kind of like my whole life, though.

Robert Greene 59:37 Right.

Lewis Howes 59:38 Now, I was a joyful, happy guy, but when that happened, it was a trigger.

Robert Greene 59:43 Wow.

Lewis Howes 59:43 And so, and my friend was like, "I don't wanna hang out with you anymore," 'cause he was there.

Robert Greene 59:47 Uh-huh.

Lewis Howes 59:48 He was like, "Every time we play basketball, you get in a fight."

Robert Greene 59:51 Wow.

Lewis Howes 59:51 "Or you react, or you say something-

Robert Greene 59:53 Wow

Lewis Howes 59:53 ... or you shove someone, whatever."

Robert Greene 59:54 Wow.

Lewis Howes 59:55 And so I said, "I need to take a look at my life."

Robert Greene 59:57 That's-

Lewis Howes 59:58 And I started going to workshops. I started doing emotional intelligence training.

Robert Greene 1:00:02 Wow. Wow.

Lewis Howes 1:00:02 I started working with therapists of all different types.

Robert Greene 1:00:05 Good for you.

Lewis Howes 1:00:05 And I was just like, "I need to see what's the root of this."

Robert Greene 1:00:07 Well, the, the key is, here is that decision that you were not gonna let this become a pattern.

Lewis Howes 1:00:12 That was it.

Robert Greene 1:00:13 And a lot of people, I don't, could have reacted the opposite way.

Lewis Howes 1:00:16 Right.

Robert Greene 1:00:16 So, what's, what makes you different from others is, could, someone could write a whole book about.

Lewis Howes 1:00:21 Yeah. Wow. I'm a, I'm a student of life, too. You know, like, I always wanna learn.

Robert Greene 1:00:25 Right.

Lewis Howes 1:00:26 And I realized that's something that was holding me back. Like, I'd achieved a certain level of success or results-

Robert Greene 1:00:31 Right

Lewis Howes 1:00:31 ... but I still couldn't sleep at night. I was still hurting inside.

Robert Greene 1:00:34 Right.

Lewis Howes 1:00:34 I was still unfulfilled. And I was like, "Well, I thought once you achieve these things-

Robert Greene 1:00:38 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:00:39 ... like, you feel better."

Robert Greene 1:00:40 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:00:40 Like, these are dreams that I've had for years that- Why don't I feel good now?

Robert Greene 1:00:45 Well, that, that's a common-

Lewis Howes 1:00:46 I think it c-

Robert Greene 1:00:47 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:00:47 Yeah, and I think it was like, I turned 30. I was going through a breakup in a relationship that I moved here for in LA.

Robert Greene 1:00:52 Yeah, I remember that.

Lewis Howes 1:00:53 I was in a business breakup as well-

Robert Greene 1:00:55 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:00:55 ... with my partner, and I was like, "Huh, why?" You know, I'm the common denominator for everything going wrong in my life.

Robert Greene 1:01:00 Right, right, right.

Lewis Howes 1:01:01 Like-

Robert Greene 1:01:02 So you saw your own patterns.

Lewis Howes 1:01:03 I saw it, and, and I think that was my, you know, not near-death experience of, like, getting in this fight, but it was, like, an awakening moment.

Robert Greene 1:01:10 Well, the fight, see, sometimes it takes something physical, like you, you could feel the, the fist on your face-

Lewis Howes 1:01:16 Oh my gosh

Robert Greene 1:01:16 ... and you knew the feeling of shame.

Lewis Howes 1:01:18 Oh, so, I felt horrible.

Robert Greene 1:01:19 These are powerful chemical reactions that you'll feel 20 years from now, and so-

Lewis Howes 1:01:24 Yeah

Robert Greene 1:01:24 ... that can wake you up. Hopefully, it doesn't take that much for other people.

Lewis Howes 1:01:28 I know.

Robert Greene 1:01:28 But sometimes it does.

Lewis Howes 1:01:29 Sometimes it does.

Robert Greene 1:01:30 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:01:30 And luckily, you know, the guy was, the guy was fi-... I mean, there was blood everywhere and everything, but the police station was right across the street, and I was just like, "I could lose everything."

Robert Greene 1:01:41 Yeah, you could.

Lewis Howes 1:01:41 Like, what if this guy had a knife? What if-

Robert Greene 1:01:44 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:01:44 ... they pressed charges, or what if... You know, it's like-

Robert Greene 1:01:47 You got

Lewis Howes 1:01:47 ... what's the point of this?

Robert Greene 1:01:48 You see, this, this is something I, [clears throat] I talk about in the book a lot is, um, there's almost, like, a stranger inside of you, a person that acts and you don't even know who they are. Like, in those moments, you're not Lewis.

Lewis Howes 1:02:03 No.

Robert Greene 1:02:03 Who is this? And it could happen tomorrow still-

Lewis Howes 1:02:06 Right

Robert Greene 1:02:06 ... where you could get in a situation where that will happen. And where does that come from? Well, there are things like that in everybody, where certain circumstances, certain events will trigger something in you, and you'll act in a way that you don't even understand. Like, I never did that before. Why am I doing this?

Lewis Howes 1:02:23 Right.

Robert Greene 1:02:23 You know? Why am I falling in love with the absolute worst woman that I could possibly, you know, involve in my life? Why am I taking this career job path that's making me miserable? Why am I getting into fights? Why am I suddenly getting angry? I'm saying that these are forces inside of you, human nature, that you don't understand, that are compelling you to behave in certain ways, and your only way outside is to understand what's going on inside of you.

Lewis Howes 1:02:52 Hmm. Wow. And that's why this book is so important. You have so many other great chapters in here. I wanna ask you a couple more questions.

Robert Greene 1:03:01 Sure.

Lewis Howes 1:03:01 And then we can wrap it up. This one on, you know, a- advance with a sense of purpose is a law. You talk about the law of aimlessness, and I think, you know, for me, having a clear vision, or at least a vision that you think is clear for a certain amount of time, is one of the most powerful things we can have because if we are aimless, then we're screwed, I feel like.

Robert Greene 1:03:21 Yeah. Well, the problem for human beings is, um, you know, an animal, a cat or a dog, they don't have to wake up in the morning and decide what they're gonna do, right? Oh, am I gonna eat this food? Am I gonna go for a walk? Whatever. Their life is sort of programmed-

Lewis Howes 1:03:38 Wow

Robert Greene 1:03:38 ... by their, who they are genetically, et cetera. We humans don't have that kind of programming. We are not given any kind of natural guidance in life. We could wake up, and we could not go to work tomorrow. We could suddenly do whatever we want if, if we felt so inclined. So we have to create our own sense of purpose, and that purpose can't come from the outside. If our parents tell us, "You need to do this, this, and this," or a teacher tells us, it's not gonna connect to something deep within us, and it might work for a while. But when we're 25, we'll feel empty and hollow because we're not, it's not something from within, and we'll lose-

Lewis Howes 1:04:17 It's not our path, yeah.

Robert Greene 1:04:17 Yeah. So the trick in life is figuring out what you were meant to do. I maintain, and this is something that I go into in great depth in Mastery, in chapter one in Mastery, but also in this book, is to figure, every human is different. Every human has a different genetic code. Their brains are wired differently. Their parents, um, no two people have the same parents who raised them a certain way. You are different. You have something very unique about you. That uniqueness exists for a purpose. If you follow that, if you use your uniqueness in some way, you will create something probably pretty interesting and pretty great.

Lewis Howes 1:05:01 Yeah.

Robert Greene 1:05:01 Right? But if you follow what everyone else is doing, you, you will be like everyone else. You will become a lawyer because your parents say you are, should, and when you're 29, you'll feel, you won't feel connected to it, and you'll see that there are eight million other lawyers doing the same thing, and you'll be 32, and you'll be drinking, and you'll gain weight, and you'll lose als- and your life will go downhill from there.

Lewis Howes 1:05:24 Is this your life? [laughs]

Robert Greene 1:05:26 No. [laughs] Could've been.

Lewis Howes 1:05:27 Yeah.

Robert Greene 1:05:28 Could've been. My parents would've liked me to become a lawyer or a doctor.

Lewis Howes 1:05:30 Yeah, right.

Robert Greene 1:05:32 Um, so, you know, how do you find that voice, I call it a voice, that's telling you who you are and what you need to do?

Lewis Howes 1:05:41 How do you find it?

Robert Greene 1:05:43 Well, it's listening, first of all. Um, so you, when you were young, you were generally attracted to certain, uh, to certain activities or, or pursuits. I call it in, in, in, in Mastery primal inclinations. It's a voice inside of you saying, "You should do this. You are attracted to that." There's a book that I recommend by a man named Howard Gardner called The Frame of Intelligence. He mentions that there are five forms of intelligence. Um, one that has to do with mathematics patterns. One is kinetic with sports. One is social and to do with people. One has to do with words. There's a fifth one I don't remember. Everyone has a brain that is inclined towards one of the five. That's, like, your main strength. Um, for you, it might have been kinetic, which was sports-

Lewis Howes 1:06:43 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 1:06:43 ... and activity and physical action. We tend to, uh, emphasize in our culture- ... intel- intellectual, uh, as a form of in- intelligence. But being really good with your hands or being really good at sports is a form of intelligence. You are naturally drawn to one of these five forms. You have to know what that is. And when you were very young, you felt naturally drawn to certain things. When I was a kid, I was drawn to words. I was obsessed with language and words, and I was obsessed with strategy -

Lewis Howes 1:07:15 Hmm

Robert Greene 1:07:15 ... with warfare and war games and sports. Um, and so, you know, eventually, that's sort of what I ended up, [clears throat] ended up doing. You know, Tiger Woods when he was a year and a half old, [clears throat] saw his father hitting golf balls in the garage and he went berserk. He felt this, like, primal attraction to it. I have many examples of famous people. You probably had that in your life, but as you get older, you start listening to your friends -

Lewis Howes 1:07:41 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 1:07:41 ... your teacher, your parents, and you're not hearing that voice anymore. And all you're hearing is what other people tell you who you should be, what they think is cool, and you lose connection to what makes you unique.

Lewis Howes 1:07:52 Hmm.

Robert Greene 1:07:53 And what, who you are, your uniqueness, is your source of power. The further you deviate from that uniqueness, the weaker you will become. You will become like other people.

Lewis Howes 1:08:02 Wow.

Robert Greene 1:08:03 So the, the game in life is to know who you are, to gather skills and train yourself and be disciplined, and by the time you reach your age of 30, you, you have a lot of creative energy and you're able to take all the things that you've learned and create something unique, like you did with your School of Greatness.

Lewis Howes 1:08:22 Yeah.

Robert Greene 1:08:23 It, I was 36 when I started writing The 48 Laws of Power, so it took me a little bit longer than that.

Lewis Howes 1:08:28 [laughs] Well, you obsessed a little more over things, that's why.

Robert Greene 1:08:31 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:08:31 You're a perfectionist.

Robert Greene 1:08:32 That's right.

Lewis Howes 1:08:32 You let that get in the way, yeah. [laughs]

Robert Greene 1:08:33 Well, I had a little more failure than, uh, most people have. Took me a little longer. I'm a little slow sometimes.

Lewis Howes 1:08:39 It's all good. [laughs] Worked in your advantage. Um, that's powerful. I like that. So lean into your curious, the things that you were curious about as a kid, and go back into the, one of those five things, figure out what it is-

Robert Greene 1:08:51 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:08:51 ... and start pursuing that more.

Robert Greene 1:08:53 And also know what you don't like.

Lewis Howes 1:08:55 Yeah.

Robert Greene 1:08:56 Um, you don't like working in a group where pe- where everything's political. Uh, well, then maybe you need to be an entrepreneur and work for yourself and start your own business. So the things that you dislike show you a lot about who you are.

Lewis Howes 1:09:09 Hmm. I like that a lot, 'cause I think a lot of people right now, they have too many options.

Robert Greene 1:09:14 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:09:15 "I'm passionate about everything. How do I know which direction to go?"

Robert Greene 1:09:19 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:09:19 And that's, like, a, a downfall in itself. It's just, like, a lot of figuring out how to choose one direction. There's people that don't have, they don't know what their passion is, and they're like, "How do I find my passion?" And then there's people who have lots of passions.

Robert Greene 1:09:32 Right.

Lewis Howes 1:09:32 They're basically in the same boat. You're not-

Robert Greene 1:09:33 They are

Lewis Howes 1:09:34 ... you're not doing either, anything.

Robert Greene 1:09:35 That's right. And it's hard, because especially with the internet and all the access to information, you can get excited about so many things. It's, "Oh, I could direct a film. Oh, I could, you know, write a screenplay. Oh, I could win a political election," et cetera. No, you can't.

Lewis Howes 1:09:52 [laughs]

Robert Greene 1:09:52 You can't do everything. You're not meant to do everything in life. You are not Leonardo da Vinci.

Lewis Howes 1:09:57 Hmm.

Robert Greene 1:09:57 There's probably one or two or three things that you need to focus on, but you need to find that thing to focus on. Focusing on one activity is not something that should frighten you. It should liberate you, because by developing solid skills in one area, you now have power to maybe branch out to something else and combine different skills. If you aren't somebody, if you're somebody that gets easily bored-

Lewis Howes 1:10:21 [clears throat]

Robert Greene 1:10:21 ... with just one straight path, you can follow this path of doing different things, but you have to master each level before you can advance.

Lewis Howes 1:10:30 Yeah, and the, and if you are scattered in your passions or your direction or your vision, you will influence less people. The more powerful you become in one area, the more influential you become in, with lots of people. Isn't that right?

Robert Greene 1:10:43 That's right.

Lewis Howes 1:10:45 W- we'll finish with, with this topic, and then I'll ask you my final couple questions. Because there's a lot of people that are looking to build a business or build a following with social media, and you have a chapter that says, "Make them want to follow you." How do we make people want to follow us, whether it be offline, online, you know, buying into our business, our products, our services, our books?

Robert Greene 1:11:08 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:11:09 Following us on social media, listening to our podcast. How do we do that?

Robert Greene 1:11:15 Well, you have to understand human nature. Um-

Lewis Howes 1:11:19 That's the key.

Robert Greene 1:11:19 Yeah. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:11:20 Understanding human nature, yes.

Robert Greene 1:11:21 People don't want to be forced or coerced or manipulated. They want to feel that they are coming to something on their own. So if you create this podcast and you go out there and you get all this advertising, et cetera, and you force people, you force yourself down people's throats with your presence, they go, "Eh. You know, this guy's trying too hard. I'm not so interested." But if you create a viral buzz where instead of you promoting yourself, I go out and go, "Wow, Lewis was the best interview," but you are, you are one of the best interviewers around.

Lewis Howes 1:11:54 Thank you.

Robert Greene 1:11:55 I, I believe that.

Lewis Howes 1:11:55 Appreciate it. Thank you.

Robert Greene 1:11:56 And I realize, 'cause it was six years ago, I remember how good an interviewer you are.

Lewis Howes 1:12:00 [laughs] Yeah, thanks.

Robert Greene 1:12:01 Um, if I'm the one going out and promoting you, suddenly that carries so much more power.

Lewis Howes 1:12:06 Right.

Robert Greene 1:12:07 So you have to understand that you don't want... So oftentimes, this is a chapter about leadership. Often as the leader, your impulse is to yell at people and, and make them do things, do your bidding, and that creates defensive, resentful, bitter people. You want them to want to join your force, to do, to join the group, to follow the group's path, to, you know, to, to get into line on their own. On, of their own volition, they follow you. And so you have to understand that first of all, you're dealing with individuals. You can't compel... You have three people who work for you. You can't do the same thing with each person. You have to play to their psychology. You have to create a cause. People don't wanna feel like they're doing something for money. It makes, it's kind of soulless and mercenary.

Lewis Howes 1:12:58 Right.

Robert Greene 1:12:59 If, oh, I'm gonna listen to Lewis's podcast because I'm gonna become a millionaire. Well, you'll get some people, but a lot of people will find that kinda empty. But if you say, I- you listen to my podcast and you're gonna help humanity.

Lewis Howes 1:13:12 Mm.

Robert Greene 1:13:13 You're gonna change the world. You're gonna feel great about yourself. People are gonna love you. You're appealing to things that motivate people, right? So you have to understand that. You have to get them to, to, to join a cause. Um, basically, that's, that's ... I mean, I, I have more things in the chapter.

Lewis Howes 1:13:32 Yeah.

Robert Greene 1:13:32 But-

Lewis Howes 1:13:33 Yeah, that's the essence of it

Robert Greene 1:13:34 ... yes.

Lewis Howes 1:13:34 Yeah. You t- you talk also about a dark shadow. Is that what you call it? A shadow side, a dark shadow?

Robert Greene 1:13:40 The shadow side.

Lewis Howes 1:13:42 What is, what does that mean, and what is your shadow side?

Robert Greene 1:13:45 Well, your shadow side came out on the basketball court very clearly.

Lewis Howes 1:13:47 Yes.

Robert Greene 1:13:48 Right?

Lewis Howes 1:13:48 The Incredible Hulk.

Robert Greene 1:13:49 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:13:52 [laughs] Yeah.

Robert Greene 1:13:53 Yeah. So, um, yeah, it's, it's a very important concept. Basically, it means, um, when we were children, when we were two or three years old, we were like a complete individual. We felt all this range of emotions. Anger, hate, love, this joy, depression. And we tended to express it, as children often do.

Lewis Howes 1:14:16 All the time, right? Yeah.

Robert Greene 1:14:19 Yeah. And then our parents intervene and say ... Because a, a, a child who just does what he wants and is always expressing can be kind of irritating. And you, you, you wanna sleep, and you want, you have your own cares. So you're telling the child, "Stop that behavior. Stop being like that. You know, be a good boy. Be a good girl. Study harder." And so you start to repress certain qualities in yourself in order to please your parents, in order to please other people. Those qualities could be your aggressiveness, your, your natural assertiveness. It could be your, your kind of dramatic, you know, tendencies or whatever.

Lewis Howes 1:14:55 Your theater nature, yeah.

Robert Greene 1:14:56 Your what?

Lewis Howes 1:14:56 Your theater nature.

Robert Greene 1:14:58 Your theater nature.

Lewis Howes 1:14:58 Yeah.

Robert Greene 1:14:59 You kind of repress them. You try to be who you, something that will please other people. And as you repress that other part of your character, it goes into what we call the shadow. It doesn't disappear. Nothing ever disappears. It just is not immediately visible.

Lewis Howes 1:15:14 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 1:15:14 It just forms the dark side of your character. There's the moon that we always see in the sky, then there's the dark side of the moon that we don't see. But the dark side of the moon doesn't exist. It's still there, just we don't see it. Everybody has the dark, their dark side. And it comes from these qualities that they were repressed when they were younger. And it will come out later in life in sudden bursts of anger, like you on the basketball field.

Lewis Howes 1:15:43 [laughs] Right.

Robert Greene 1:15:43 Or it'll come out, you know, in a relationship.

Lewis Howes 1:15:46 Uh-huh.

Robert Greene 1:15:47 For instance, um, you might have felt like your parents didn't really love you, and you're worried that, that, that ... You were worried as a child that, that, you had an irrational fear that they would abandon you. And then you form a, a relationship later with a woman, and she's slightly cold to you, but not for any reasons that have to do with you. Maybe she's in a bad mood. You assume that she's about to abandon you because you have that fear, and you lash out and you get angry. And you, like basically instigate a break-up in advance because you don't wanna deal with that pain of going through it. You don't wanna have to be abandoned. You wanna be, be the one abandoning.

Lewis Howes 1:16:28 Right.

Robert Greene 1:16:28 Well, that's your shadow side coming out. Everybody has it, and you'll notice it when people do something that seems out of character. They will lash out. They will get angry. They will do something self-destructive. They will say, as we said earlier, "Oh, that's not me. You know, something came over me." But no, that is them.

Lewis Howes 1:16:48 That is them. Wow.

Robert Greene 1:16:48 That is their shadow acting out. That person on the basketball court wasn't somehow Mr. X who suddenly invaded Lewis's body.

Lewis Howes 1:16:57 Right, right. It was me.

Robert Greene 1:16:58 It was Lewis.

Lewis Howes 1:16:59 Yeah.

Robert Greene 1:16:59 It was more Lewis than what we normally see.

Lewis Howes 1:17:01 Right.

Robert Greene 1:17:02 Normally, we see the nice, pleasant Lewis.

Lewis Howes 1:17:04 But, yeah.

Robert Greene 1:17:04 The real Lewis suddenly came out on that basketball court.

Lewis Howes 1:17:07 [laughs] Yeah.

Robert Greene 1:17:07 And you saw it.

Lewis Howes 1:17:08 Yeah.

Robert Greene 1:17:08 Well, everybody has that, and you wanna see that in people. You wanna see that they're ... Any ki- you wanna see their shadow.

Lewis Howes 1:17:16 Right.

Robert Greene 1:17:17 And understand that, that, that they're not as, the nice, as nice and wonderful as they say they are. Not to judge them, but to be aware. And you wanna see your own shadow so you can use it, so you can be aware of it, so you can overcome it.

Lewis Howes 1:17:30 Wow, wow. What's your shadow side?

Robert Greene 1:17:33 That's a good question. Um, I've had to deal a little bit with my shadow side now because I suffered a stroke about two months ago. And my shadow side is I feel like I'm ... I have an incredible need to be independent and self-reliant. And if I don't feel that way, if I feel like I'm trapped, that I can't do something, I get really angry and really can be vicious and violent. So the sense that something is stripping or stepping on my independence or autonomy can trigger that Lewis Howes basketball reaction.

Lewis Howes 1:18:08 The Hulk comes out.

Robert Greene 1:18:09 The Hulk comes out. So I've had to-

Lewis Howes 1:18:11 So your wife and everyone has to suffer that, huh?

Robert Greene 1:18:13 Well, I had to deal with it. I've had to deal with the fact that I am dependent, that I am like a baby right now, that I can't ... I have to rely on people. But there are other things that I can do for myself still, but they're small things. That's part of it. And then the other shadow side is the hyper-perfectionist in me that's always trying to please and-

Lewis Howes 1:18:31 Yeah

Robert Greene 1:18:31 ... make the absolute perfect book, you know?

Lewis Howes 1:18:35 Well, they're pretty amazing.

Robert Greene 1:18:36 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:18:37 They're pretty amazing. So they ... It's paying off in some ways, but-

Robert Greene 1:18:40 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:18:41 ... at what cost also? What's the price you have to pay-

Robert Greene 1:18:43 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:18:44 ... with that shadow, I guess, right?

Robert Greene 1:18:45 Well, yeah. But you know, um, as I said before when we were first talking, I'll take that price.

Lewis Howes 1:18:52 Yeah.

Robert Greene 1:18:53 Because I created something that I wanted to do. I did something that mean, meant a lot to me. And I knew I was kind of- Hurting myself physically

Lewis Howes 1:19:03 Mm

Robert Greene 1:19:03 But I still did it. It's like you're going off to war. What will make a man, a, a person, man or woman, go into battle knowing that you, you could die?

Lewis Howes 1:19:14 A greater purpose.

Robert Greene 1:19:15 Yeah. So you, you give up your body for s- or a football player, for instance.

Lewis Howes 1:19:20 Yeah.

Robert Greene 1:19:20 You give up your body for something greater, and that's not a bad feeling.

Lewis Howes 1:19:23 Yeah. What's the thing you're most proud of that most people don't know about?

Robert Greene 1:19:29 Wow. Huh. Well, um, that's a good question. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:19:40 I try to make you think about things you normally don't think about.

Robert Greene 1:19:43 The thing I'm proud of. Well, I don't like tooting my own horn.

Lewis Howes 1:19:46 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 1:19:47 I don't like s- saying how wonderful I am. I don't-

Lewis Howes 1:19:50 If you had to.

Robert Greene 1:19:51 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:19:51 About the thing that you're most proud of.

Robert Greene 1:19:53 Well, you know what? People assume because I wrote The 48 Laws of Power, they have this image that I'm kind of this asshole.

Lewis Howes 1:20:00 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 1:20:01 That I'm sort of this manipulative, Machiavellian asshole who goes around trying to get the better of people.

Lewis Howes 1:20:07 Uh-huh.

Robert Greene 1:20:07 That I know every trick in the book. That if I'm late for a meeting, I'm doing that on purpose-

Lewis Howes 1:20:12 [laughs] It's a strategy

Robert Greene 1:20:13 ... because I'm playing some game.

Lewis Howes 1:20:13 Yeah.

Robert Greene 1:20:14 And actually, I'm a really nice person.

Lewis Howes 1:20:17 Uh-huh.

Robert Greene 1:20:17 You know, I'm kind of a, a puppy.

Lewis Howes 1:20:20 Yeah.

Robert Greene 1:20:20 I'm not like that at all. You know, I can be tough when I have to be, but, um, s- k- kind of my father. My father was a really nice person. He wasn't weak, but he was just really nice.

Lewis Howes 1:20:33 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 1:20:34 So I g- I don't know if I'm proud of that, but that's sort of a side of me that people don't know. I'm not a-

Lewis Howes 1:20:38 Yeah

Robert Greene 1:20:39 ... I'm not as much an asshole as they think I am.

Lewis Howes 1:20:40 Yeah, yeah. That's good. Good to be proud of being a nice guy. Your shadow side is the manipulative strategist, right?

Robert Greene 1:20:46 That's right. That's right.

Lewis Howes 1:20:47 It comes out.

Robert Greene 1:20:48 That is right. That's actually more accurate. That would be my shadow side, yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:20:51 Oh, there you go. What's the question you wish more people would ask you that they never ask?

Robert Greene 1:20:57 Wow.

Lewis Howes 1:21:01 Anytime you get Robert Greene to say wow, that's a good sign. [laughs]

Robert Greene 1:21:04 [laughs] The question people ask me.

Lewis Howes 1:21:07 You wish people would ask you.

Robert Greene 1:21:10 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:21:11 Or you wish you could answer more.

Robert Greene 1:21:16 Man, you see, the problem for me is my books cover so many different topics that people generally ask about everything. I mean, a lot of it has to do with, um, you know, because I've spent my whole life listening to other people and writing about other people, I don't really talk about myself very much. So, um, sort of talking about my own experiences and how I formed myself, I did that in a TED Talk, and it was very difficult for me.

Lewis Howes 1:21:49 Hmm.

Robert Greene 1:21:49 It's very unnatural.

Lewis Howes 1:21:50 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 1:21:51 But in this TED Talk, I discussed how I arrived at where I am right now, and, uh, that's something I don't get to talk a lot about 'cause I don't like to talk about myself that much.

Lewis Howes 1:22:02 Hmm.

Robert Greene 1:22:02 But that's sort of a question I don't get so much.

Lewis Howes 1:22:05 How you arrived where you're at right now.

Robert Greene 1:22:07 Yeah, how I ended up writing the, the kind of books that I write.

Lewis Howes 1:22:11 I remember you telling me about this six years ago, where you had done a lot of different things that were all failures.

Robert Greene 1:22:18 Right.

Lewis Howes 1:22:19 I think you were like a newspaper writer or like a screenplay writer-

Robert Greene 1:22:22 Right

Lewis Howes 1:22:22 ... and movie, you know, all these different things, and you were like 70% good at, uh, all of them, but they weren't really that great.

Robert Greene 1:22:28 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:22:28 And then they all kind of magically showed up at 36 to writing, like this different book that no one really wanted, but then it was like a big hit.

Robert Greene 1:22:37 Yeah. I mean, the thing was, um, goes back to the thing about uniqueness that we were talking about.

Lewis Howes 1:22:42 Yeah.

Robert Greene 1:22:43 Uh, I've never felt like I was like other people. I've always felt like an oddball. I never did what my parents told me to do. I left college and went and lived in Europe. I mean, I graduated, but I lived in Europe, and I just wandered around. I never listened to what people told me to do. And, um, so when it came time to writing this book, this man, who was my partner in writing it, who packaged it, he sort of asked me if I had an idea for a book, and I kind of explained my ideas about power. I decided to make it something very weird and unique.

Lewis Howes 1:23:20 Different than what was in the market and-

Robert Greene 1:23:22 Yeah. Like, n- uh, you can hate The 48 Laws of Power, but you can... Honestly, no one has ever written a book like that.

Lewis Howes 1:23:29 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 1:23:30 The structure with the stories, the sections, the quotes, the things on the side, and I got a lot of grief for that. The publishers go, "Uh, I don't think this will work, and we want you to change. We want it to be more like other books."

Lewis Howes 1:23:42 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 1:23:43 And so I stuck to my guns, and I said, "No, I'm gonna go down s- sinking with who I am."

Lewis Howes 1:23:50 Hmm.

Robert Greene 1:23:51 If this works, it's because I'm, I'm weird and I'm unique, and it, it succeeded. So the idea that, um... And then after The 48 Laws of Power, the ne- the logical thing was to put The 48 Laws of Power Part 2 and to sort of, kind of mine what I'd already done. I said, "No, I'm gonna go in a new direction." So I'm constantly challenging myself-

Lewis Howes 1:24:14 Hmm

Robert Greene 1:24:14 ... and following my own path. I'm a weirdo.

Lewis Howes 1:24:17 Yeah.

Robert Greene 1:24:17 And people don't realize maybe how weird I really am. Only my wife kind of knows how truly weird I am.

Lewis Howes 1:24:23 Sure.

Robert Greene 1:24:24 So maybe that's to answer your question-

Lewis Howes 1:24:25 I like that

Robert Greene 1:24:26 ... how, how truly strange and weird I am.

Lewis Howes 1:24:29 But that's the path to achieving something great, is leaning into your uniqueness.

Robert Greene 1:24:34 I think so. I mean, you could go too far with that.

Lewis Howes 1:24:36 Right, right. [laughs]

Robert Greene 1:24:37 I could've-

Lewis Howes 1:24:37 You still gotta reach the masses in some way.

Robert Greene 1:24:39 I could've written poetry.

Lewis Howes 1:24:40 [laughs]

Robert Greene 1:24:41 Or even-

Lewis Howes 1:24:41 Like, there are poets right now that are selling millions of copies.

Robert Greene 1:24:44 Okay. All right.

Lewis Howes 1:24:44 Rupi Kaur, have you seen her?

Robert Greene 1:24:46 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:24:46 She sold millions of copies. Two books, I think, were number one New York Times bestseller poetry books.

Robert Greene 1:24:51 Okay. I take that back.

Lewis Howes 1:24:52 Never know.

Robert Greene 1:24:52 But if I had written poetry, that wouldn't have happened. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:24:53 It wouldn't have been good for you, yeah.

Robert Greene 1:24:55 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:24:56 Um, this is a question I ask at the end. It's called the three truths.

Robert Greene 1:24:59 Oh, no.

Lewis Howes 1:24:59 And I didn't ask you this last time-

Robert Greene 1:25:01 You didn't

Lewis Howes 1:25:01 ... 'cause I didn't have this question. So, uh, imagine you, uh, live as long as you want. You live for as many years as you want, but at some point, you get to choose the day is the last day for you. And you've written every book that you can think of. They've all been bestsellers, they've all... You know, millions of copies-

Robert Greene 1:25:21 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:25:21 ... like, you've already done, and then some.

Robert Greene 1:25:23 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:25:24 You've done it all. And you say, "Okay, it's been good. Like, time to go." And for whatever reason, you've gotta take all of your work with you, so no one has access to your work anymore. You've gotta bring it with you. Hypothetical, but you get to write down on a piece of paper the three truths from everything that you've learned in your life, from all of your books, all of your messages, your work, your insights, all your weirdness that you are, the three things you know to be true about life, and this would be the only thing that you would leave behind for everyone to have.

Robert Greene 1:25:56 Uh-huh.

Lewis Howes 1:25:57 Robert Greene's three truths or life lessons. What would you say are your truths?

Robert Greene 1:26:03 Well, um, there's a weird kind of law that governs the universe, which is what you give to the world is sort of what you get, right? So we are more active than we think we are. We are more responsible for what happens to us than we think we are. Um, and so the things that have worked for me in life, when I've sort of been aware of that, and through my attitude, through... You know, like, the pattern of my life is kind of foggy with all of the failures. But overall, there was a, there was a, a reason behind it. There was a purpose, and I followed that purpose unconsciously, maybe consciously to some degree-

Lewis Howes 1:26:50 Mm

Robert Greene 1:26:50 ... and it led to where I am today, but that there is something, a feeling that I had, that there was something kind of guiding me, and I can't put my words, I can't put my finger on it. Something was guiding me to where I ended up today, even from when I was five years old.

Lewis Howes 1:27:07 Wow.

Robert Greene 1:27:08 So I've always had a feeling of, like, fate and destiny, for better or for worse, and it happened. So that's-

Lewis Howes 1:27:16 That's one

Robert Greene 1:27:17 ... one of the... Shit. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:27:19 [laughs]

Robert Greene 1:27:23 Um, wow. Um, the other truth is that, um, is that, uh, we tend, I tend, and other people, we tend to be too nice in life.

Lewis Howes 1:27:40 Mm.

Robert Greene 1:27:41 Too, um, indulgent with other people, too nice. We don't ask for enough. We, we, we feel like we don't deserve much in life, et cetera, and we let people push us around. I was pushed around a lot, because I was sort of a naive-

Lewis Howes 1:28:00 Mm

Robert Greene 1:28:01 ... writer type, who didn't understand that there are bad people out there. So one of the things I had to learn in life, and that are the source for my work-

Lewis Howes 1:28:11 Mm

Robert Greene 1:28:11 ... is that there are bad people out there, and you have to recognize that, that there are narcissists, that there are aggressive people, that there are passive-aggressive people, that there are enviers, and you c- you have to be aware of that, and you have to be s- strong enough to deal with them. And by not being able to deal with those kind of people, your life can be completely ruined. One awful, toxic person, one bad relationship can ruin you for life. You internalize the negative energy. So the ability to stand up for yourself, and to be aware, and to understand that not everyone has the best intentions, and that you're gonna be more strategic and not always kind of just accepting what people give you, was a major source of wisdom for me. And all of my books come from a bit of anger, you know?

Lewis Howes 1:29:08 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 1:29:08 And I think the reader can feel the anger in them. And anger is kind of an intoxicating emotion. I even talk in the book how it's, can be a positive emotion. When, when my writing is angry, it's very real, and you can feel it. So I've been able to take that kind of sense of, there are people out there who are hurtful, and use that anger and turn it into something positive, into a book. That was sort of the sec- Goddammit.

Lewis Howes 1:29:36 [laughs] Final truth. Uh...

Robert Greene 1:29:39 Final truth. Well, um-

Lewis Howes 1:29:45 For the world to know.

Robert Greene 1:29:48 For the world to know. Um... Oh, man. Well, I'd say one thing was, it's kind of related to some of the other things I've said, and, and we, I did write a book about this, but it has to do with the role of fear in my life-

Lewis Howes 1:30:16 Mm

Robert Greene 1:30:16 ... and what I've been afraid of. And, um, I come from a background of, my parents were kind of anxious, somewhat fearful people, and I tended to internalize that, um, and, uh, to worry about what will happen next, to whether people will like me. And to the degree that I overcame that fear and did something bold and unusual, I've kind of become more of who I am-

Lewis Howes 1:30:50 Mm

Robert Greene 1:30:50 ... and kind of achieved things. So I've always been one to confront my fears. Like, I have great fears now of walking, because if I fall, and it's very easy for me to fall- I could be finished. You know, I'll break something and now I can't... My stroke will never, I'll never get over. Uh, I've gotta get over that and I've gotta keep walking and walking and get over my fear. I was afraid of, of being alone or being in a situation I had no control over. So when I was 22 years old, I went and lived, uh, on the island of Crete in Greece in, um, with a backpack and sleeping in caves.

Lewis Howes 1:31:33 Wow.

Robert Greene 1:31:33 And kind of being alone and sort of cutting myself off from the world was something I greatly feared, and I kind of overcame that fear. So sort of the ability for me to c- uh, confront what I'm most afraid of has been a great source of power. I'm not great at it. There's still many fears that, that haunt me. But instead of kind of giving into them, always kind of confronting them and, and moving past them.

Lewis Howes 1:32:02 Mm-hmm. To confront your fears.

Robert Greene 1:32:04 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:32:05 Wow. That's powerful.

Robert Greene 1:32:06 Did I cover three?

Lewis Howes 1:32:07 You covered three.

Robert Greene 1:32:07 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:32:08 Those are beautiful.

Robert Greene 1:32:08 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:32:10 Um, make sure you guys get this book, The Laws of Human Nature. It's out right now. Very powerful. I recommend getting a couple copies to give to friends as well, because the key to, to life is relationships.

Robert Greene 1:32:23 Yep.

Lewis Howes 1:32:24 And this is the key to understanding people and understanding how to be better in relationships. So get this book. It's going to transform the way you move through life. Um, we can follow you on Instagram, Twitter. Where do you spend time at, or where do you post the most?

Robert Greene 1:32:40 Well, we have a website in which everything is funneled into. I've had it for years. It's PowerSeductionAndWar, the and spelled out, .com. Those are my first three books.

Lewis Howes 1:32:51 PowerSeductionAndWar...

Robert Greene 1:32:53 .com

Lewis Howes 1:32:54 .com.

Robert Greene 1:32:54 And there's a s- you'll find there a site for Mastery and for the new book.

Lewis Howes 1:32:58 Great.

Robert Greene 1:32:58 [coughs]

Lewis Howes 1:32:59 And are you spending time on social media at all, or no?

Robert Greene 1:33:02 Yeah. [coughs] I'm on Facebook and Twitter and...

Lewis Howes 1:33:05 Instagram

Robert Greene 1:33:06 ... Instagram, but I'm not as active as I should be, but I'm there.

Lewis Howes 1:33:10 What's your handle on Instagram?

Robert Greene 1:33:12 Shit.

Lewis Howes 1:33:12 [laughs] We'll find it and link it up for people.

Robert Greene 1:33:15 Yeah. I don't even know what it is on Twitter. I just have it on my phone. I don't...

Lewis Howes 1:33:18 We'll find it.

Robert Greene 1:33:19 I should know.

Lewis Howes 1:33:19 It's probably your name. It's all good.

Robert Greene 1:33:20 Yeah. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:33:21 Um, well, I wanna acknowledge you. Before I ask the final question, I wanna acknowledge you, Robert, for constantly showing up and creating masterpieces, because these books truly transform lives. Millions of people-

Robert Greene 1:33:33 Oh

Lewis Howes 1:33:33 ... talk about them, read them, and they improve their life because of the information that you obsess over, whether that's good or bad, but your ability to dive into a topic is unbelievable.

Robert Greene 1:33:44 Oh.

Lewis Howes 1:33:44 So I acknowledge you for your, your care and attention to detail-

Robert Greene 1:33:49 Thank you, Lewis

Lewis Howes 1:33:49 ... to impact people's lives.

Robert Greene 1:33:51 Thank you, Lewis.

Lewis Howes 1:33:52 I just wanna make sure you take care of your health moving forward.

Robert Greene 1:33:54 [laughs] Will try.

Lewis Howes 1:33:55 Um, but it's amazing everything you've done. I'm, I'm grateful for our friendship over the years-

Robert Greene 1:34:01 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Lewis Howes 1:34:01 ... and just, you know, everything that's happened.

Robert Greene 1:34:03 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:34:04 So.

Robert Greene 1:34:04 I saw you when you were just a li- a wee little lad.

Lewis Howes 1:34:06 You were my first episode.

Robert Greene 1:34:08 Yeah. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:34:08 So I appreciate you for giving me my-

Robert Greene 1:34:10 Oh

Lewis Howes 1:34:10 ... my first chance of-

Robert Greene 1:34:11 Well, it was an honor. I'm so proud of you-

Lewis Howes 1:34:13 Yeah

Robert Greene 1:34:13 ... and everything you've done.

Lewis Howes 1:34:14 Thank you. Thank you.

Robert Greene 1:34:15 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:34:15 The final question-

Robert Greene 1:34:16 Oh

Lewis Howes 1:34:17 ... is what is your definition of greatness?

Robert Greene 1:34:22 Well, it's kind of what we've already talked about. So, um, I feel like everybody has the potential for greatness, and greatness would mean something a little bit larger than what you've already done, for going a little bit beyond what you've already created, going a little bit past your limits. Great implies kind of size and largeness. And so everybody has the potential for greatness, I don't care who you are or, or, or the bad circumstances of your childhood. And greatness is realizing your own potential. I don't care what that is. It could be in being the best possible parent. It could be in using your hands and creating some beautiful work of art or some great bit of craftsmanship. It could be in writing a book or creating a great podcast. But it's something larger than what you were 10 years ago. You've expanded your boundaries. You've expanded your own limits. You've pushed them a little bit further.

Lewis Howes 1:35:39 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 1:35:40 So to me, that's greatness. I made this a circle, I didn't explain it in the book, because I said human nature kind of contains us. It creates a limit for us. We can't become a chimpanzee or a sheep. We are human, and this is the limiting factor. But by knowing the laws of human nature, you can begin to explore a little bit further out-

Lewis Howes 1:36:01 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 1:36:01 ... and become something a little bit more. You can take your irrational nature and become more reasonable and rational. Well, going, pushing a little bit past your limits-

Lewis Howes 1:36:10 Mm-hmm

Robert Greene 1:36:10 ... and expanding like a balloon just a little further, that's greatness to me.

Lewis Howes 1:36:15 Mm-hmm.

Robert Greene 1:36:15 Not accepting, but moving past your own limits.

Lewis Howes 1:36:18 Robert Greene, thank you, man.

Robert Greene 1:36:20 Thank you, Lewis.

Lewis Howes 1:36:20 Appreciate it.

Robert Greene 1:36:21 That was great. Thank you.