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Lewis HowesLewis Howes

WHY SUCCESS Comes From Mastering Negotiation In BUSINESS & LIFE | Chris Voss & Lewis Howes

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Lewis HoweshostChris VossguestLewis Howeshost
Sep 12, 20161h 17mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 0:04

    Intro

    1. LH

      [upbeat music]

  2. 0:04 – 4:10

    Chris Voss’s path from street cop to FBI negotiation work

    1. LH

      Welcome, everyone, back to the School of Greatness podcast. Very excited about our guest. His name is Chris Voss. Thanks for coming on, Chris.

    2. CV

      My pleasure, man.

    3. LH

      Appreciate it. You got a new book out that is called Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depends On It, so make sure you guys check this book out. Really powerful, and Chris, you were, uh, the lead, um, international kidnapping negotiator for the FBI for how many years?

    4. CV

      Well, I, I officially the lead-

    5. LH

      [clears throat]

    6. CV

      ... for four years-

    7. LH

      Four years

    8. CV

      ... probably. In, in reality, about seven.

    9. LH

      Seven years, okay. And you worked on, I think I read, 150 kidnapping or nego- high-level negotiation cases, right?

    10. CV

      Yeah, total cases across the board, yeah. About-

    11. LH

      And this-

    12. CV

      ... 150 ballpark

    13. LH

      ... and these range from kidnappings or from bank robberies or from what are all the range of-

    14. CV

      Yeah, you know, um, m- mostly kidnappings, and one of the crazy things about the job was, um, uh, mo- uh, bank robberies are real rare. Bank robberies with hostages, all that happens in movies all the time-

    15. LH

      Uh-huh

    16. CV

      ... happens in the United States in the whole country about once every 20 years.

    17. LH

      Okay. [laughs]

    18. CV

      And, uh, and, uh, one of them is a, one of them was a bank robbery with hostages. That's, that's like, uh, the first story in the book. So it's, it's rare to have gotten, you know, it sounds stupid-

    19. LH

      You got lucky

    20. CV

      ... to say I was lucky.

    21. LH

      Yeah, right, right. [laughs]

    22. CV

      "Hey, I was lucky. I was in a bank robbery with hostages." How dumb is that?

    23. LH

      Right, right.

    24. CV

      But yeah, I caught, I caught one of those, and, and it, it was great. So my-

    25. LH

      And what-

    26. CV

      ... my s- experience is a little broader than most hostage-

    27. LH

      Sure

    28. CV

      ... negotiators.

    29. LH

      And you were a police officer in Kansas City before then, right?

    30. CV

      KCMOPD.

  3. 4:10 – 6:19

    First major FBI negotiation: rare Brooklyn bank robbery with hostages

    1. LH

      There you go. There you go. So what was the first, um, negotiation process like for you at the FBI? What was it? How long had you been at the FBI for-

    2. CV

      Well-

    3. LH

      ... and what was the r- outcome?

    4. CV

      Yeah, the first real deal was a bank robbery with hostages in Brooklyn.

    5. LH

      Your first deal was a bank robbery?

    6. CV

      My first FBI gig, if you will.

    7. LH

      Wow. And this happens once every two decades.

    8. CV

      Uh, bank robberies with hostages are rare, rare events.

    9. LH

      Wow, okay. Where was the bank?

    10. CV

      It was in, it was in Brooklyn at 7th and Carroll. It was Chase Manhattan Bank.

    11. LH

      Uh-huh.

    12. CV

      And there we were, dun, dun, dun.

    13. LH

      [laughs]

    14. CV

      No, but I was, uh, I was g- I was actually scheduled to do a terrorism-related interview that morning, and I was a, I was, uh, not quite a year out of negotiation training, and a partner of mine, Charlie Baldwin, came in and says, "There's a bank robbery with hostages in Brooklyn. Let's go."

    15. LH

      Wow, and you were in Manhattan at this time, right? You were living-

    16. CV

      Yes, in Manhattan, yeah. So, uh, Charlie and I, and we were both p- nursing bad knees at the time.

    17. LH

      [laughs]

    18. CV

      He actually had a bad left knee. I had a bad right knee.

    19. LH

      So you got your wheelchair, your crutches-

    20. CV

      Just about, yeah

    21. LH

      ... hobbling around. [laughs]

    22. CV

      Hob- hobble around, and so we, we, we pull up to the, uh, bank robbery, and we're too close to the crisis site, and we didn't realize we're like right on top of where the bank is, where the bad guys were. So two, two, two guys with bad knees bail out of the car-

    23. LH

      [laughs]

    24. CV

      ... and low crawl basically [laughs] through the inner perimeter to, to where the negotiation team was being set up, and that was-

    25. LH

      Hm

    26. CV

      ... that was my first gig.

    27. LH

      Okay, and now is the team in a van like it is in the movies where you like have a van, and you're got the-

    28. CV

      Right No

    29. LH

      ... radios and

    30. CV

      If you can't set up someplace, then you get a van.

  4. 6:19 – 7:50

    A ‘powerless’ negotiator who actually controls everything

    1. CV

      Well, that's what we thought, but the bad guys inside were really tricky, and they, and that was, that was one of the first things that I began to learn lessons about business negotiation, 'cause the, the, the organizer inside was one shrewd guy.

    2. LH

      Hmm.

    3. CV

      And it's a cliche in a business world that if you're sitting at the table with some guy who wants to make them seem powerless, that's an influential guy.

    4. LH

      Hmm.

    5. CV

      A guy who always said, "Look, I don't have control over what's going on here. You know, I got a CEO, I got all these people." Anybody that points to negotiators away from the table, the harder they work to make you- thems- selves seem powerless, the more influential they are-

    6. LH

      Really?

    7. CV

      ... 'cause they don't want you to corner them at the table.

    8. LH

      'Cause they don't have the decision. They can't make the decision.

    9. CV

      Well, they can. They don't want you to know it.

    10. LH

      Yeah. Right, exactly.

    11. CV

      They're hiding that.

    12. LH

      They're acting like they can't make it.

    13. CV

      Right. Right. Right. And this guy in that bank, he just kept saying, "You know, these other guys that I'm here with, they're so dangerous. I don't know what they're gonna do." And he was extremely calm. And at first we just thought we were dealing with an inadequate personality.

    14. LH

      Hmm.

    15. CV

      Somebody who just had no power. But we found out after the fact that he was one of the most controlling guys, and the guys he took to that bank robbery, they didn't even know they were gonna rob the bank. They thought they were gonna burglarize a cash machine.

    16. LH

      Wow.

    17. CV

      He was, he was manipulating everybody. So my first solid dose with that, with somebody like that, was like one of the best business lessons I ever learned.

    18. LH

      Wow. What happened? How long did the process go for?

    19. CV

      12 hours.

    20. LH

      12 hours.

    21. CV

      Little over 12 hours in total.

    22. LH

      How, how many hostages?

  5. 7:50 – 14:46

    How the standoff unfolded: threats, stalling, and the surrender

    1. CV

      There were three hostages inside, two women and a man. They had, uh-

    2. LH

      They had guns, they had everything, I'm assuming

    3. CV

      ... bad guys rolled in. This guy thought everything through in advance, and he rolled in with a gun that looked like a .357. Was actually not.

    4. LH

      Hmm.

    5. CV

      Because he wanted everybody to think he had a .357. So the first thing he does when he rolls in the bank is, uh, he takes the two female tellers hostage. He hits one of them in the head with the .357.

    6. LH

      Ouch.

    7. CV

      He sticks the barrel in the other one's mouth and pulls the trigger.

    8. LH

      Oh my gosh.

    9. CV

      And she thinks-

    10. LH

      Talk about terrifying

    11. CV

      ... yeah, she's frightened out of her mind. She thinks it sh- you know, it was just, uh, an empty chamber, which is what he wanted her to think. And then, and when he, when he dropped the hammer on an empty chamber, he said, "Now open the vault." And they wasted no time getting that vault open. But by then, the police had showed up. We surrounded the bank and said-

    12. LH

      So the vault was open. They got cash in bags or whatever.

    13. CV

      They were getting ready to get out when we surrounded them.

    14. LH

      You surrounded them, so how do they get out?

    15. CV

      Well, they, you know, we had them trapped inside, and so we w- we went through a really long negotiation. I mean, this guy's thought everything through. I mean-

    16. LH

      So you're on the phone with him. Y- you get ahold of him, he gets ahold of you. How's that work?

    17. CV

      We, uh-

    18. LH

      You call the bank

    19. CV

      ... the first thing we do is we, we try to isolate the phone lines.

    20. LH

      Right.

    21. CV

      So, but w- so we just got in on a, we connected our equipment to a phone and just called in on the bank phone. And this was, uh, and that ended up being the way we communicated the entire time.

    22. LH

      And he just picked it up the first time and-

    23. CV

      Yeah, well, 'cause he's smart. He wants, he wants to figure... First of all, he wants to figure out-

    24. LH

      He wants to get away for free [laughs]

    25. CV

      ... what we're doing. He wants to get away, and he, he also realizes that if he's talking to us, there's a pretty good chance we're not coming in.

    26. LH

      Right.

    27. CV

      If he's talking to us, and also if, if he realizes he's got to manage the th- the risk level, you know, he's got to talk to us in really measured tones. And so he knows as long as he's talking to us and sounding reasonable, we're probably not gonna break down the doors.

    28. LH

      Right. But if they're sounding crazy, then you're gonna come in and-

    29. CV

      Then we're gonna come in.

    30. LH

      Huh. So he sounded reasonable. He was-

  6. 14:46 – 18:24

    “Immovable nice guy”: assertive without aggression (and a trial lawyer example)

    1. CV

      Well, he got... When, when I got on the phone with him, I was part of a change of strategy, and I was gonna be-

    2. LH

      Something wasn't working for a while.

    3. CV

      Right.

    4. LH

      Yeah.

    5. CV

      Well, we'd slowed it down, and I was gonna be the really tough nice guy.

    6. LH

      Right. [laughs] Right.

    7. CV

      Like, I'm gonna... My job to get on the phone was to be the immovable nice guy.

    8. LH

      [laughs]

    9. CV

      And the nicer you are, the more movable you could be.

    10. LH

      Hmm.

    11. CV

      You know, you don't, you don't even... And I, forgive me for picking on Mr. Donald Trump right now.

    12. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    13. CV

      But, you know, he, the style of being... You can be very aggressive without, or very assertive without being aggressive, and his style is he wants to yell at people. You know, he wants to intimidate his way in. You don't have to give up that much assertion, you just, you know, you don't wanna be that mean. You don't wanna be that hard on people.

    14. LH

      For example, what do you mean? Like how?

    15. CV

      Well, you know, there's, there's a, a... We're, we're in LA.

    16. LH

      Yes.

    17. CV

      Um, there's a great guy here in town, his name is Tom Girardi, voted top trial attorney in California several years in a row by the Bar Association. He gets voted top trial attorney so many times that when they put it on the front page, they say, "Again."

    18. LH

      Wow.

    19. CV

      So he comes in, and he's a guest in my class at USC, and he stepped... And I know he's a top trial attorney, but I don't know his style. I figure he's gonna be an attack dog, 'cause I spent so much time in New York, you know, I'm used to attack dog attorneys. And Tom walks into the class and he says, "You know, the key to negotiation is being nice and gentle." Now, what Tom does by being nice is get you to drop your guard, and Tom is an immovable, unrelenting opponent, and that's why he's so successful, and he's ridiculously nice about it.

    20. LH

      [laughs]

    21. CV

      Like, he smiles and he chats with people, and he always talks about how we'll collaborate with each other in the future. He's g- You, you get into an argument with him, and immediately he'll bend it, where he's talking with you about how you and I are gonna be successful together 10 years from now-

    22. LH

      Hmm

    23. CV

      ... or in the future. Which is the same thing a hostage negotiator does. Like, if you're barricaded in a bank, I'm gonna say, "My first goal is to get you out of there alive." Well, I picked a point in the future that we can collaborate on. Tom Girardi does this instinctively, and he's just super nice about it.

    24. LH

      Hmm.

    25. CV

      I mean, like, you either you're gonna cooperate with him 'cause you like him so much, he's never gonna let up on you, or more than likely you're gonna say something accidentally.

    26. LH

      Hmm.

    27. CV

      And, and he gets people saying stuff accidentally, and he... and then he can... and then he doesn't jump on you if you say something accidentally.

    28. LH

      Right.

    29. CV

      He lets you say so many things accidentally-

    30. LH

      What do you mean accidentally?

  7. 18:24 – 22:08

    Live role play: hostage negotiator vs. bank robber (what breaks down)

    1. LH

      Interesting. Okay, I've got a bunch of questions for you that I want to ask about this, but I want to do a role play first, if you're cool with it.

    2. CV

      I'd love to do a role play.

    3. LH

      And you say you do this in your class.

    4. CV

      Do I have to wear a special outfit?

    5. LH

      No. [laughs] You-

    6. CV

      We get to wear w- we get to wear uniforms?

    7. LH

      Wear what-

    8. CV

      You gonna wear football uniforms?

    9. LH

      Exactly, yes.

    10. CV

      I'll be a referee.

    11. LH

      Okay, perfect.

    12. CV

      And you be a wide receiver.

    13. LH

      [laughs] We can do that.

    14. CV

      I'll call you for illegal procedure-

    15. LH

      [laughs] Perfect

    16. CV

      ... offsides.

    17. LH

      There you go. Uh, but you do this in your class, right? 'Cause you teach at USC-

    18. CV

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, we do the role play

    19. LH

      ... business school, and what do the role play usually consist of? What's a role play?

    20. CV

      All right, so I, I say, I say, "All right, I'm gonna ask you to volunteer to role play with me in front of the class."

    21. LH

      Okay.

    22. CV

      "And I want you to know, just in case you're worried about role-playing with a hostage negotiator in front of everybody, just ease your mind, just so you won't worry, I promise you the experience is gonna be horrible."

    23. LH

      [laughs] Perfect.

    24. CV

      "And you'll probably get more out of it than anybody else in the classroom."

    25. LH

      Mm. Okay.

    26. CV

      All right, so here's a role play. You volunteered, you, you agreed.

    27. LH

      Yes.

    28. CV

      I'm a bank robber, you are a hostage negotiator. I'm trapped at a bank.

    29. LH

      Yes.

    30. CV

      You and your colleagues have got me surrounded. It's your job to talk me out.

  8. 22:08 – 26:04

    Debrief: illusion of control, don’t talk over them, and use “How?”

    1. CV

      All right. So-

    2. LH

      [laughs]

    3. CV

      Literally-

    4. LH

      It's intense

    5. CV

      ... everything that you did-

    6. LH

      Was wrong? [laughs]

    7. CV

      No, no, your strategy is on the money.

    8. LH

      Okay.

    9. CV

      See, and I would only change how you tried to implement the strategy.

    10. LH

      Okay.

    11. CV

      But you, um, you're trying to feel me out a little bit.

    12. LH

      Uh-huh.

    13. CV

      You got a great tone of voice.

    14. LH

      Uh-huh.

    15. CV

      Like I was attacking you like crazy.

    16. LH

      Yes.

    17. CV

      I'm, I'm, I'm hitting you hard.

    18. LH

      Yeah.

    19. CV

      And I actually used one... I used the Donald Trump voice, basically.

    20. LH

      Uh-huh.

    21. CV

      Now, you didn't respond. You didn't, you didn't lose your stuff at all.

    22. LH

      Right.

    23. CV

      You stayed very calm the whole time.

    24. LH

      Okay. That's the key?

    25. CV

      That's not easy to do.

    26. LH

      No, 'cause I was feeling it inside. I was like, "Oh, man."

    27. CV

      That's very impressive that y- your voice didn't come up one iota in that negotiation. And then with that particular voice as a counterpart, it's not at least un- been unusual when we start talking over each other.

    28. LH

      Right.

    29. CV

      You didn't talk over me once.

    30. LH

      Right. Is that a key?

  9. 26:04 – 30:09

    Handling ‘alpha’ negotiators with respect and emotional currency

    1. LH

      So, so how do you deal in a negotiation with the kind of person who has to win, who has to get everything they want, they're very controlling, alpha-

    2. CV

      Right

    3. LH

      ... and it's their way or no way?

    4. CV

      Well, getting everything they want is actually third on their list. First of all, being in control is number one on their list, and that's emotionally satisfying.

    5. LH

      Mm.

    6. CV

      The second thing is the alpha type, which is, uh, we refer to that as the, the assertive. The one thing that's more important to them than actually getting what they want is being respected and making sure that you know everything about what they're coming from. So... And it's a classic guy who's working for his boss and said, "You know what? My boss didn't do what I wanted him to do, but he heard me out," or, "She heard me out."

    7. LH

      Mm.

    8. CV

      "I can live with the direction that we're going as long as I know that my boss knows my opinion." And so that the assertive type of negotiator, it's really more important to them that they felt, felt that they, uh, conducted themselves respected- respectably, that you respected them, and that you knew what they were coming from.

    9. LH

      Mm.

    10. CV

      And once they know those things, they'll actually soften up on what they want.

    11. LH

      If they feel disrespected, they'll probably be more frustrated and angry and-

    12. CV

      Right

    13. LH

      ... demanding.

    14. CV

      Right. Right, right, right.

    15. LH

      So you have to respect-

    16. CV

      Because when they're very demanding, what they're really saying to you sub- subtly is, "I want you to know how important this is to me."

    17. LH

      Right.

    18. CV

      "I want you to know how important I am."

    19. LH

      So how do you meet that person? Just come to them with respect or with calm or-

    20. CV

      Yeah, you just... You know, you could say, "Look, you're, you're, you're impressive. You're phenomenal."

    21. LH

      You've thought this all out. This is very-

    22. CV

      Yeah. I mean, clearly, you know where you're coming from. You know what you want. Um, I'm lucky to be talking to you at all. [laughs]

    23. LH

      Right.

    24. CV

      I mean, if were I to sit down with, with Donald Trump, I would in fact be lucky to be in the same room with him. That'd be the first thing I'd say to him. I'd say, "You're-"

    25. LH

      Stroke his ego

    26. CV

      ... "you're an American icon."

    27. LH

      Right.

    28. CV

      You know? You- you're the symbol of American business, certainly in New York City. Yeah. You know, stro- stroking their ego is not a bad thing. One of the... W- and, uh, you know, it's a version of empathy 'cause that- that's how they see themselves.

    29. LH

      Mm.

    30. CV

      And, you know, the, the, the, the emotional recognition. Like emotional currency is not gonna solve every deal. I just don't wanna try to solve any deal with money when I could've solved it with emotional currency.

  10. 30:09 – 32:15

    Let them go first: listening for ‘gold’ and what’s missing

    1. LH

      Uh, so what are the characteristics that make a great negotiator in your field, and also how do those translate into the business and relationship world? Just in general, outside of-

    2. CV

      Well, let the other side go first. Um, you know, most people have... are so, so they're, they're burning with their argument. "Here's why you should make this deal." And they've got that memorized and, and they, they're not gonna listen to a word you say till they get it out.

    3. LH

      [laughs]

    4. CV

      So trying to talk to them is really like trying to talk to a paranoid schizophrenic.

    5. LH

      Right.

    6. CV

      'Cause they're rehearsing their speech in their head and their logic. And so they, they just... you just can't get through to them.

    7. LH

      Mm.

    8. CV

      So you let them go, you let them go first and, um, a- another guy, Ned Colletti, a former GM of the Dodgers, friend of mine here in town, phenomenal negotiator-

    9. LH

      Mm-hmm

    10. CV

      ... he's ne- lectured at, uh, at my class at USC also. You know, and Ned always likes to let the other side go first. You know, he, he did the Barry Bonds deal. He's done a ton of deals across the board. And Ned says, "Well, you know, in a two-hour phone call, there's gonna be 90 seconds of solid gold, where my- the person I'm talking to, based on changes that they made in their tone of voice and the adjectives that they used..." I mean, he's got an instinct for it. He couldn't, he couldn't identify. He just already said, "There's 90 seconds of solid gold." And I'd say, "What is that?"

    11. LH

      [laughs] Right.

    12. CV

      And we'd, we'd talk it through and he says, "Well, yeah, it's gonna be a change in the tone of voice. It's gonna be a different kind of adjective." So Ned wants you to go th- first 'cause he wants to know what it's gonna take to make the deal.

    13. LH

      What they want.

    14. CV

      Right. Yeah. What they-

    15. LH

      What inspires them

    16. CV

      ... what they're burning for or how they characterize what they have.

    17. LH

      Mm. Or what they're not saying too, maybe.

    18. CV

      Exactly right. What someone has failed to say is often a lot more important than what they have said. Which is why you give it a little if- thought in advance, all right, what they're gonna, what are they gonna say if they, if they've got this? So I, I actually like to look for more of what they haven't said, what's glaringly missing, and that's gonna take s- I'm gonna need you to w- walk through it a couple of times before that jumps out at me.

  11. 32:15 – 34:13

    The hardest counterparts: unprepared people and internal deal-killers

    1. LH

      Mm. Okay. Okay. Um, who are the most difficult people to work with, then? Would you say it's the alpha people, or would you say it's the uncertain people, or what type of people are hard to work in negotiation with?

    2. CV

      You know, you're talking about a little bit of a tight match and that, that has a, has a tendency... It's a little bit based on how bad I wanna make the deal. Like, I don't like liars.

    3. LH

      Mm.

    4. CV

      Or I don't like... The most difficult people to work with in the long run are people who haven't thought anything through. Which is as bad as a liar, only their heart's not in the wrong place.

    5. LH

      They don't know what they want-

    6. CV

      Right

    7. LH

      ... specifically?

    8. CV

      Or they don't know how, how they're gonna m- they don't know how they're gonna get this done, which is, again, we go over and over again. I go over and over again. Yes is nothing without how. Like, and the person who thinks like the yes is gonna make a deal, well, yes is not gonna make a deal 'cause you gotta have how.

    9. LH

      Mm.

    10. CV

      How are we gonna put this together? And someone who doesn't think things through, a lot of times w- they're actually kind of dysfunctional on their own side. So they'll make promises they can't keep, and they have no idea they can't keep those promises.

    11. LH

      Right.

    12. CV

      And so when they take your deal, you think you've done a deal with them, they take it back to their company, and their company goes like, "No, we're not doing this. This is a stupid idea. We can't do this."

    13. LH

      Sure.

    14. CV

      And that happens a lot. I think in, in a private sector, I've heard from a number of companies that fully 50% of the deals that they make that don't go through get killed internally because somebody cut a deal for them, and they took it back to the company-

    15. LH

      Mm

    16. CV

      ... and the company says, "No, that, that violates our terms and conditions."

    17. LH

      Right.

    18. CV

      "We can't deliver on that basis." So you're dealing with someone who just has no, uh, doesn't have a clue as to what's going on on their side.

    19. LH

      Sure.

    20. CV

      And there are a lot of people like that.

    21. LH

      When you're making a business deal, what do you recommend as the amount of time to consider the deal before saying, "Yes, let's do it"?

    22. CV

      Um-

    23. LH

      Like, here's the deal points. Here's what you want. Here's what I want. Okay, should we sign it right away? Should we give it 24 hours? Should we take it to our team? Should it be a week? You know, what's like kind of a standard, do you think?

  12. 34:13 – 38:17

    Finding unknowns and triggering information without asking directly

    1. CV

      Um, un- unless you've got something in line a- a- ahead of time, um, the company name is The Black Swan Group 'cause we believe there's black swans in every negotiation, which is something you didn't know, that as soon as you found out, it's gonna change all the parameters.

    2. LH

      The deal. Gotcha.

    3. CV

      So you sit at, down at the table to find out the unknowns.

    4. LH

      Huh.

    5. CV

      And you... It's impossible to research all the unknowns. Plus, a lot of the unknowns, I'll find them a lot faster if I just ask you.

    6. LH

      Right.

    7. CV

      And I could research for two weeks something that I may be able to get you to tell me about in 10 minutes.

    8. LH

      For example, what do you mean something you'd wanna ask?

    9. CV

      Um, I'm do- I'm, uh, speaking to a lo- for a longtime client, and they have another co- firm that I've been affiliated with coming, uh, doing a different block. When I found out they were doing that block, I could subtly reach back through my network to find out what the, the competing/partnership firm of mine is-

    10. LH

      Mm

    11. CV

      ... what they're charging, or I could just flat out-

    12. LH

      Ask them

    13. CV

      ... "Well, I need to get the information." A lot of information you gotta get by not asking. You gotta trigger it. Uh, you know, the, the phrase ask good questions, it's really get good information. And a lot of times you won't tell me stuff if I ask. But if I act like I already know, or if I... There are other ways. Hostage negotiators trigger information without asking questions, and hostage negotiators get that information and make you feel good about giving it at the same time.

    14. LH

      Mm. So give me an example, either in a hostage or a business deal, what that kinda trigger could be.

    15. CV

      Well, it's gonna be, it's gonna be some sort of a statement lie. I might say, "Look, I'm, I'm sure my, my competing company's charging you twice as much as I am."

    16. LH

      Oh, and then they'll tell you the answer.

    17. CV

      They'll wanna correct me.

    18. LH

      Oh, "Actually, no, it's the same"-

    19. CV

      Right

    20. LH

      ... or, "Actually, you're getting a better deal."

    21. CV

      Never underestimate the other-

    22. LH

      Huh

    23. CV

      ... side's desire to correct you.

    24. LH

      Wow.

    25. CV

      Because it makes people feel powerful and smart. You know, you're gonna wanna feel smarter than me. One of, one of my clients is negotiating a deal for, uh, a commercial office building in South Carolina, and it's, uh, it's almost 100% occupancy. It's in a mixed use, uh, historic area, so it means the, the building can't be knocked down, and nobody can build in it 'cause this is a historic area.

    26. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    27. CV

      And so the building's basically impossible to replace, and it's 100% occupancy. Makes no sense to sell the building. So they're genuinely thinking, "Why is the seller selling?" First of all, you can't ask why, 'cause why makes people defensive. If I look at you and I say, "Why did you wear a black shirt?" Your instant thought is gonna be like-

    28. LH

      [laughs]

    29. CV

      ... do I gotta defend a black shirt?

    30. LH

      Why I'm doing it? Yeah, yeah.

  13. 38:17 – 44:47

    Women and tactical empathy: sympathy vs. empathy

    1. LH

      And how do women and men compare as negotiators? As counter, as counter powers either against each other or woman-man, woman-woman-

    2. CV

      See-

    3. LH

      ... man-man. Is there differences?

    4. CV

      See, I think a powerful woman negotiator s- a woman who's really good at negotiation is almost unstoppable.

    5. LH

      Wow.

    6. CV

      Um, and I think that the reinforcement, the societal reinforcement is constantly trying to pound men into being better negotiators and constantly trying to pound women away from it. And I think that, I think the, um, the step from sympathy to empathy is a shorter step, and women are socialized to be sympathetic. And I don't think they're... Uh, you know, whether or not it's nature or nurture, I know there's a lot more pressure societally and culturally, culturally for women to be like that. And I, in my class, women pick my style of negotiation up faster than the men do, and the women that go to my class start cutting bigger and better deals faster than the men do.

    7. LH

      In business or in life or in just-

    8. CV

      In both.

    9. LH

      Gotcha. Wow.

    10. CV

      So in, in, in my view, I think that-

    11. LH

      Like after they graduate, they go on to do...

    12. CV

      Well, in the class.

    13. LH

      Okay.

    14. CV

      You got, you gotta negotiate with skin in the game in my class.

    15. LH

      Really?

    16. CV

      And almost all of my students are rising star business executives. So, um-

    17. LH

      Mock negotiations, they're making more is what you're saying.

    18. CV

      No, in real life, man.

    19. LH

      Real life. They take it out into the real world.

    20. CV

      You gotta take my stuff and put it in real life while you're in my class, and you gotta write about it.

    21. LH

      Wow.

    22. CV

      And, uh, one, you know, I've got everything from a billion dollar Wall Street transaction, people in my class use the tools for. I get a, at USC, get a lot of commercial real estate, estate transactions.

    23. LH

      Wow.

    24. CV

      A lot of people buying commercial real estate that are, that are working on MBAs. I've gotten a lot of those transactions. Got, uh, you know, my favorite, my favorite way to say no, which I got, you know, the how question before.

    25. LH

      Uh-huh.

    26. CV

      The favorite way to say no is, "How am I supposed to do that?" Just real calm deference. There's great power in deference. You know, that's, and that's what I did in kidnappings, bank robberies, everything. "How, how am I supposed to do that?"

    27. LH

      And what if they say, "I don't care. Figure it out," or, "She's dead"?

    28. CV

      Well, then you know that you've pushed them as far as you can, and that means you gotta pivot to something else. Now the... And, and that's actually where you wanna get to.

    29. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    30. CV

      'Cause the strategy of negotiation is to find out you wanna max every term if you can, and the only way to max that is to find out that I've hit you to the full limit without making you angry enough that you slam your hands down and walk away.

  14. 44:47 – 1:00:41

    Label the negatives first: shrinking the ‘elephant in the room’

    1. LH

      So how would you eliminate something like that, that negative in the deal so that you could-

    2. CV

      Well, then, then, then say like, I, I... If I think that you're negative towards me, I'm gonna say, "Look, I'm, I'm sure it seems like I'm greedy here." If I say to you like, "I'm sure I'm gonna seem very greedy here," that sets me up to ask for a lot of money.

    3. LH

      Mm.

    4. CV

      Because there's actually, um, science that backs this up now. Identifying a negative diminishes it every time. So if I'm gonna make a g- big grab for the money, you're gonna think I'm greedy, and I need to get that out of the way because if I'm too greedy-

    5. LH

      Mm

    6. CV

      ... you're gonna, you're gonna get some satisfaction by keeping me from the money, even if you don't get any.

    7. LH

      Right.

    8. CV

      And so th- I'm gonna say, "Look, I'm gonna, I'm gonna seem real greedy here. I'm gonna seem like I'm very self-centered, and that I'm greedy, and that I'm not looking out for you at all." And then I'll just let it sit. And you'll take a lot more from me. A lot, a lot. You'll, you'll allow me to take more if I've said that in advance.

    9. LH

      Upfront, really?

    10. CV

      Yeah. Because I've, I've diminished that. Y- your, your thought is like, I mean, how... I, I can never seem too greedy then.

    11. LH

      Mm.

    12. CV

      When I make that grab-

    13. LH

      Right

    14. CV

      ... you're gonna say, "Well, he was honest with me. He told me he wanted a lot of money. He didn't try to say, 'Hey, look, let's do a win-win deal.' No, 'Give me all the money.'"

    15. LH

      Right.

    16. CV

      Because if I say I wanna do a win-win deal with you, I'm like, "Hey, I'll be nice to you. I'll look out for you." When I make that grab-

    17. LH

      And then you try to take 90 and give me 10, it's like-

    18. CV

      Right

    19. LH

      ... "Oh, it's not a good deal."

    20. CV

      Yeah.

    21. LH

      But when you say it upfront, then you're more likely to get the deal.

    22. CV

      Yeah.

    23. LH

      And get more of whatever you want.

    24. CV

      Right. I'm gonna, I'm gonna seem very honest to you. I'm gonna... You're, you're, you're gonna like that I was honest with you.

    25. LH

      [laughs]

    26. CV

      And you're gonna say after the fact like, "Look-

    27. LH

      He was honest

    28. CV

      ... I always knew where he was coming from."

    29. LH

      I didn't like the deal, but I did it anyways, or whatever.

    30. CV

      Yeah.

  15. 1:00:41 – 1:11:23

    Avoid ‘yes’ traps, use ‘no’ safely, and end with “It seems like you’re powerless”

    1. LH

      Wow. What's a word you never say in a negotiation, or the worst thing to say? ... um, business deals or personal relationships or

    2. CV

      Uh, de- uh, depends upon what's coming out, uh, whose mouth it's coming out of

    3. LH

      Like, do you ever say no? Or do you ever say

    4. CV

      You, you... You know, I might need to say no. I, I'll probably... I like to let no out a little at a time, which is actually how am I supposed to do that is the first way that I say no.

    5. LH

      That's no, without saying no.

    6. CV

      Right. That's, that's saying no to what's on the table, but not no to you. Let's figure if we can work this out. There may come a point in time when I, when I say no, said and done. Um, but I'm, I'm gonna need to explore every option there. I mean, I don't... Saying, uh... Hearing yes is a bad thing to hear.

    7. LH

      So don't say yes.

    8. CV

      Yeah. Ye- yes in of themselves... I, I would much rather say, you know, "Okay, I'll do it." I'd, I'd lo- I love to say you win. 'Cause when you win, you're gonna perform.

    9. LH

      Hmm.

    10. CV

      Yes is nothing without how. I need you to perform at a top level.

    11. LH

      Hmm.

    12. CV

      You perform at a higher level when you feel like you win. If I, if I hear... If you look at me and we make a deal and you say, "Okay." Well, that's a resigned okay, and we're gonna run into trouble when we go to implement, 'cause the, the minute anything-

    13. LH

      Hmm

    14. CV

      ... bad could happen by you, by your inaction. You know there's a phrase, never be mean to someone who can hurt you by doing nothing.

    15. LH

      Hmm.

    16. CV

      Which nearly everybody can hurt you by doing nothing.

    17. LH

      Right.

    18. CV

      Um-

    19. LH

      So saying, "Okay, I'll do it."

    20. CV

      Right

    21. LH

      Or, "Yes, you win," or, "You win."

    22. CV

      Right. Right.

    23. LH

      Don't say yes.

    24. CV

      I, I, I want you to feel like you won.

    25. LH

      You win.

    26. CV

      So-

    27. LH

      You got the better end of the deal.

    28. CV

      Yeah. 'Cause w- are, are you, are you gonna hold to the deal if you got the best end of the deal?

    29. LH

      No, of course.

    30. CV

      You're in love. You can brag about it.

  16. 1:11:23 – 1:17:32

    Closing reflections: gratitude, three truths, and definition of greatness

    1. LH

      Oh, wow, that's great. Um, let's finish with the final few questions. Make sure you guys get the book here. This is fascinating. Never Split The Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It. Some powerful insights in this interview so far, and I know you have a framework for negotiating in the book. Um, final few questions. [clicks tongue] What are you most grateful for in your life recently?

    2. CV

      Uh, y- I'm, I'm just, I'm grateful that my son still is in business with me.

    3. LH

      Yeah.

    4. CV

      That my son can tolerate me.

    5. LH

      [laughs]

    6. CV

      Uh, I've run across... Nearly everyone that I've run across since I've been in LA, I'm just happy in one way or another that, that, that they've come into my life.

    7. LH

      Hmm.

    8. CV

      Uh, I, I gotta tell you, I'm grateful to be s- I know it's gonna sound like a cliché. I'm grateful to be sitting here right now. I think, I think this... When I started finding out about you and all the cool stuff that you've done-

    9. LH

      I appreciate it

    10. CV

      ... and how much positive positivity and, and help you're bringing people, I mean, I think that's, I think that's incredible. You, you-

    11. LH

      I appreciate it

    12. CV

      ... people who listen to your podcast are getting phenomenal value out of it.

    13. LH

      Yeah. I appreciate it. See how he's ending on a positive?

    14. CV

      [laughs]

    15. LH

      See how good this is? [laughs]

    16. CV

      And I meant it.

    17. LH

      I appreciate it. Yeah, yeah. Um, there's a, there's a question we, we ask at the end called the three truths, and this is if it's the last day for you many, many years from now, your books have been erased, all your techniques have been deleted from time, y- the information you put out to the world is gone for whatever reason.

    18. CV

      Right.

    19. LH

      And, um, you have a piece of paper, and your great-great-grandchildren comes up to you and says, "Will you write down the three things you know to be true about everything you learned in business, relationships, school, FBI, everything in life you've learned, coming down to three simple truths that you would pass on to us?" And that's all the thing we would know to live our lives by. What would be those three truths?

    20. CV

      Yeah. Be generous. It'll, it'll come back to you much more than you could ever imagine. Um, uh, yeah, work, work hard. Be generous, work hard, be honest. I mean, uh, any, any th- any of the opposites to those are just damaging shortcuts, just really damaging shortcuts. Um, you could... And so yeah, the just be generous, work hard, be honest.

    21. LH

      I like it. Simple and effective. I like those.

    22. CV

      Thanks.

    23. LH

      Um, make sure you guys get this book, Never Split The Difference. Where can we connect with you online?

    24. CV

      Uh, blackswanltd.com. B-L-A-C-K-S-W-A-N L-T-D, like limited.com. We are not ballerinas. Uh-

    25. LH

      [laughs]

    26. CV

      [laughs] That would be the, the blacks.

    27. LH

      The opposite.

    28. CV

      Yeah, we, uh, yeah. But we're, you know, we're very agile. We like to have a lot of balance.

    29. LH

      Sure. Yeah, yeah.

    30. CV

      Ballerinas are actually great athletes.

Episode duration: 1:17:33

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