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Your View On Psychopaths Will Never Be The Same After This | Dr. Patric Gagne

🔔 Subscribe for more great content: https://www.youtube.com/lewishowes ▶️ Recommended for you: https://youtu.be/Ol3l-iAwfcs People with psychopathy still feel, just differently from everyone around them. Dr. Patric Gagne, a diagnosed sociopath who went on to earn a doctorate and work as a therapist, sat down with Lewis and told the story she tells in Sociopath: A Memoir. As a kid she learned that saying “I don't care” out loud got her in trouble, so she lied, and lying made her feel safe. She talks about the pressure she called a vice, which she relieved by breaking into homes just to sit in the quiet, and the first grade day she stabbed a classmate with a pencil. Then she explains why secondary psychopathy, which may touch 5% of people, is treatable when kids get caught early. You will hear why a therapist who doesn't absorb your pain can be the best container for it, and why stopping someone from crying can stop the brain from healing. She also gets into the shame under people pleasing and narcissism, and the question she asks her own kids: how does it feel when you feel? You may come away a little gentler with the people you never understood, and with the kid you used to be. Sociopath: A Memoir https://amzn.to/3U0eHIo Dr. Patric's Instagram https://www.instagram.com/patricgagne/?hl=en Dr. Patric's Website https://patricgagne.com/ The Society for the Prevention of Disorders of Aggression https://disordersofaggression.org/ Listen to this episode on the go! 🍎 Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-school-of-greatness/id596047499 🟢 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/07GQhOZboEZOE1ysnFLipT?si=a03d916bade54d4f For more info about this episode, go to https://lewishowes.com/1995 💰 get my NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLING book "Make Money Easy" today!https://lewishowes.com/moneyyou 📙 get my NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLING book "The Greatness Mindset" today! https://lewishowes.com/gmyo 📤 sign up for my FREE newsletter https://lewishowes.com/greatnessdelivered Follow Lewis! Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lewishowes/ Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lewis Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lewishowes/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/LewisHowes 💻 Website: http://lewishowes.com/ 📲 For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960 Get More Greatness! Greatness Clips: https://www.youtube.com/@GreatnessClips Spanish: https://www.youtube.com/@LewisHowesEspañol Portuguese: https://www.youtube.com/@LewisHowesPortugues Lewis Howes Shorts: https://www.youtube.com/@lewishowesshorts 00:00 - Intro 00:38 - How Sociopaths Feel Emotion 01:38 - Social Emotions vs Inherent Traits 08:23 - Primary vs Secondary Psychopathy 12:53 - Overcoming Stigma & Inner Child 22:11 - Being a Sociopathic Therapist 29:49 - Can Sociopaths Truly Change? 36:28 - Thrill-Seeking & Releasing Pressure 43:32 - Self-Awareness & Healing Trauma 53:19 - Overcoming People-Pleasing Habits 01:03:37 - 3 Keys to Self-Confidence 01:07:04 - Sociopaths vs Narcissists 01:12:43 - Teaching Kids Emotional Tools 01:29:45 - Guilt, Shame, & Moral Codes 01:40:06 - 3 Golden Truths for Life #greatness #inspiration #motivation

Dr. Patric GagneguestLewis Howeshost
Oct 19, 20261h 46mWatch on YouTube ↗

Summaries, chapters, transcripts, and FAQs on this page are made by uListen, not YouTube.

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:38

    Intro

    1. PG

      Representation matters, and when the only representation of a psychopath on television is a serial killer or a monster, I remember thinking, "Everything I'm hearing about sociopaths is evil, monster, serial killer, criminal. But I don't feel evil, so is this like a situation where I'm just gonna wake up one morning and wanna kill somebody?" I remember being afraid. Like-

    2. LH

      Really? Diagnosed sociopath. She went on to earn her doctorate, writing her dissertation on sociopathy. She is the author of Sociopath: Dr. Patric Gagne.

    3. PG

      You know what I find so much with neurotypical people, is they'll sit down, they'll confide in one another, and one friend

  2. 0:38 – 1:38

    How Sociopaths Feel Emotion

    1. PG

      will start to get emotional, and what is the first thing the other friend says? "Please don't cry. Oh, please don't cry. Don't cry. Don't cry." But when I have a friend who's crying, I don't like to see my friend in pain, but I understand it's not my job to stop them from feeling. The first thing you would think is, oh, if you're talking to someone who's psychopathic, they don't care. And by the way, sometimes I don't, but I still understand this has nothing to do with me, and it doesn't have to have anything to do with me.

    2. LH

      So is it possible for psychopaths to actually change?

    3. PG

      Yeah.

    4. LH

      I'm fascinated by human dynamics and human behavior.

    5. PG

      Mm-hmm.

    6. LH

      You are an expert in this topic.

    7. PG

      Mm-hmm.

    8. LH

      I like understanding the human mind, human emotions, why people do the things they do.

    9. PG

      I am just as fascinated. I just come at it from an antisocial perspective-

    10. LH

      Mm

    11. PG

      ... whereas you come at it from-

    12. LH

      Yeah

    13. PG

      ... a pro-social perspective.

    14. LH

      Yes.

    15. PG

      But isn't that interesting?

    16. LH

      Uh-huh

    17. PG

      How, you know, and that is something about psychopathy, is that it's, it's automatically assumed, oh, psychopaths can't feel. Psychopaths can feel. We feel all of the inherent emotions. So

  3. 1:38 – 8:23

    Social Emotions vs Inherent Traits

    1. PG

      everyone's born with those inherent emotions. You have young kids, you didn't have to teach them to smile.

    2. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    3. PG

      You didn't have to teach them to cry. Happiness, sadness, surprise, disgust. Your children are born e- with these emotions. But it's the social emotions that psychopaths struggle to understand: empathy, compassion, envy, uh, remorse, guilt. Again, these things, these emotions are taught, mostly through modeling.

    4. LH

      Mm.

    5. PG

      So if your, if your daughter hits her sister, you're gonna say, "Hey, we don't wanna hit, 'cause, you know, your, your sister, it'll make her sad, and you don't want your sister to be sad, do you?" And your daughter will probably say, "No, I don't." And that's how we learn empathy. Well, psychopaths don't learn emotions that way. So-

    6. LH

      Is that 'cause they're not modeled by parents or by society or by-

    7. PG

      It... First of all, we, we struggle to understand inherent emotions, period. But because empathy and guilt and shame, et cetera, because it's modeled, and you're using other like-minded children to do that modeling. For me, there were no like-minded children.

    8. LH

      Mm.

    9. PG

      So you're-

    10. LH

      So you need other children to model.

    11. PG

      Well, you need s- other... You need someone else l- like you. Because in order to get into, i- the mind of someone else, in order to imagine what that person is feeling, you have to be able to relate to them in some way, right?

    12. LH

      Right.

    13. PG

      So in the, in the example of your kids, your one daughter can almost certainly relate to what the other one is feeling.

    14. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    15. PG

      But for me, I understood that I didn't have these complex emotional developmental skills. I could see that my sister did. I could see that the kids around me did. So when it was time for someone to say, "Oh, you don't want Sarah to be sad," I, I remember just, "No, I don't want Sarah to be sad," but what I was really thinking is, "I don't know that I care." I mean, just because I don't care about someone's pain per se doesn't mean I wanna cause pain.

    16. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    17. PG

      But I, I, I don't really think I care about whether she's happy or not.

    18. LH

      Interesting.

    19. PG

      And I also learned that saying that out loud was the fastest way to get into trouble.

    20. LH

      I'm sure.

    21. PG

      And that's, so that's where I learned to lie.

    22. LH

      When you grew up, you didn't have the ability to care that someone else was feeling pain?

    23. PG

      It's not that I didn't have the ability, it was just that I didn't... I understood it intellectually, but it didn't resonate with me emotionally.

    24. LH

      You understood, oh, this person's in pain. I should feel this, something.

    25. PG

      Yes.

    26. LH

      But I'm not feeling it.

    27. PG

      But I'm not feeling it. And admitting to that-

    28. LH

      Oh

    29. PG

      ... saying to a caregiver-

    30. LH

      And they're like, "Something's wrong with you."

  4. 8:23 – 12:53

    Primary vs Secondary Psychopathy

    1. PG

      And yet some-

    2. LH

      Well, I don't know. What is the definition of s- a sociopath or psychopathic?

    3. PG

      Now, the word sociopath and psychopath are pretty much interchangeable, because sociopath isn't used clinically. It's become clinically obsolete. Now, when it, someone is diagnosed as either antisocial personality disorder or psychopath, psychopath has two categories. Psychopathy, primary psychopathy and secondary psychopathy. Primary psychopathy is biological, very, very rare, uh, incurable, untreatable. Secondary psychop- psychopathy, environmental, completely treatable. And these are people who have an inherent temperament that sort of predisposes them to deceit. We all know that kid in the classroom, the kindergartner that can tell a lie with no problem, a- as or pos- as opposed to my sister, who as soon as she starts lying about a dinner reservation breaks out into sweat.

    4. LH

      Wow.

    5. PG

      But the, there are kids that are just naturally gifted liars. It's not to say that every child with that temperament is going to become psychopathic, but the, it's certainly easier for them to progress in that direction, and they just, they, they have a hard time internalizing those social emotions.

    6. LH

      Is that more of a genetic, I don't want to call it defect, but is that a genetic trait that s- human beings have, or is it an environmental trait?

    7. PG

      It's usually, it's, it, it, it seems to be a, a combination of both, whereas primary psychopathy is believed to be biological, and that there is no learning the social emotions for someone who is a primary psychopath.

    8. LH

      What is it? Is it, like, a, um, a wiring in the brain that is different? Is it an emotional, the nervous system is broken or off in some way? What is that?

    9. PG

      They're not sure.

    10. LH

      Okay.

    11. PG

      But a lot of research points to, um, oxytocin, which is the, um, that, that, like, the love hormone for trust-building. They're still trying to pinpoint what it is exactly, but again, because that type of disorder, because that type of psychopathy is so rare, I think .004% of the population-

    12. LH

      Mm

    13. PG

      ... there really is no research or funding.

    14. LH

      Right, right, right.

    15. PG

      Whereas secondary psychopathy is believed to represent at least upwards of 5% of the population.

    16. LH

      Really?

    17. PG

      These, not only are these cases treatable, but the pediatric precursors for secondary psychopathy, um, oppositional defiant disorder, mood dysregulation disorder, conduct disorder, completely, completely treatable and preventable. So with the right screeners, you could start screening kids for these disorders and start treating them, and then you would prevent most of the secondary psychopaths that progress.

    18. LH

      So, so psychopath and sociopath are the same thing?

    19. PG

      Roughly, because-

    20. LH

      Similar?

    21. PG

      ... s- sociopath is, is clinically obsolete-

    22. LH

      Gotcha

    23. PG

      ... in much the same way that multiple personality disorder is now called, I believe, dissociative disorder.

    24. LH

      Gotcha. They've changed the name. Okay.

    25. PG

      They've changed the name to reduce stigma.

    26. LH

      Gotcha.

    27. PG

      I'm not sure that-

    28. LH

      Interesting

    29. PG

      ... replacing it with psychopath is reducing much stigma.

    30. LH

      [laughs] Right.

  5. 12:53 – 22:11

    Overcoming Stigma & Inner Child

    1. PG

      i- I, I understand the value of society.

    2. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    3. PG

      I understand the value of relationships. I don't connect to relationships the way that-

    4. LH

      Interesting

    5. PG

      ... most people do, but that's not wrong. It's different.

    6. LH

      It is different, yeah. But the thing I love about this book, you know, it's funny that your book cover says sociopath, and it's a photo of you, I'm assuming when you were like five or seven years old. Do you know exactly when this was, this?

    7. PG

      Fourth grade.

    8. LH

      Okay, maybe eight, nine years old or something like that.

    9. PG

      Yeah.

    10. LH

      It's funny because this photo of you, uh, is beautiful because it's kind of connecting you to the inner child inside of you.

    11. PG

      Mm-hmm.

    12. LH

      When we realize as adults that we have such unique, and for most people, challenging life experiences that we faced, typically coming from childhood, that have developed us into who we are as adults-

    13. PG

      Mm-hmm

    14. LH

      ... all of our beliefs, all of our behaviors, all of our thoughts, emotions, the way we feel is stemming from earlier childhood-

    15. PG

      Yeah

    16. LH

      ... in some way, shape, or form.

    17. PG

      Mm-hmm.

    18. LH

      And when we can learn to have compassion for the younger version of us who dealt with all these messy emotions, that we didn't understand this world we were entered in-

    19. PG

      Mm-hmm

    20. LH

      ... we didn't choose to enter, or maybe we did, but we didn't understand why we chose it-

    21. PG

      Mm-hmm

    22. LH

      ... and all of a sudden we're supposed to fit in and belong and understand human dynamics and what's right and wrong from a young age, it's very confusing and complex.

    23. PG

      Yeah.

    24. LH

      And when we can have grace for the younger version of ourselves, then I think we can start to grow, heal, and develop into who we're, who we can truly become. And so I love that this is a, a photo of yourself when you were younger on the cover of your book, and I just think it's beautiful for your own personal healing journey as well.

    25. PG

      Thank you. It's funny, too, because when people talk about psychopaths in a negative way-

    26. LH

      Uh-huh

    27. PG

      ... and say things like, "They should all be locked up," or a lot of, um, a lot of clinicians have used the word irredeemable when dealing with, right-

    28. LH

      Wow

    29. PG

      ... with psychopaths. And I always like to ask, "So when do they become i- irredeemable? Five? Six? Seven? Eight?"

    30. LH

      Yeah.

  6. 22:11 – 29:49

    Being a Sociopathic Therapist

    1. LH

      Wow.

    2. PG

      I'm just gonna start being really honest because-

    3. LH

      What did that look like with a friend that you're like, "I'm not gonna lie anymore"? When they tell you they're going through a hard time and a breakup or something else, what would you say then? Like, how would that conversation go?

    4. PG

      I would say, I would listen. And, but, and it's funny, I would have never thought this at the time, but I think I probably would, you know, use tools that I, I ended up refining when I started working as a therapist. What I realized when friends would tell me things is you don't have to empathize with somebody in order to be an observer or a container for their feelings. In fact, I think I'm excellent container for feelings because my feelings don't pollute that container.

    5. LH

      Interesting.

    6. PG

      So-

    7. LH

      Your feelings don't get in the way.

    8. PG

      Right.

    9. LH

      You don't say how you're feeling or what you're going through-

    10. PG

      Right

    11. LH

      ... or whatever. Interesting.

    12. PG

      You know what I find so much-

    13. LH

      Huh?

    14. PG

      ... with neurotypical people, is they'll sit down and they'll confide in one another, and one friend will start to get emotional. And what is the first thing the other friend says? What do you think?

    15. LH

      I guess they could say, "I'm so sorry." Or they start crying maybe, or they make it about themselves maybe, or...

    16. PG

      Please don't cry.

    17. LH

      Um-

    18. PG

      Oh, please don't cry. Don't cry. Don't cry.

    19. LH

      Oh, it's okay. It's gonna be okay.

    20. PG

      Yes, it's gonna be okay. Yes, because-

    21. LH

      They don't want to deal with the feelings

    22. PG

      ... they, it's uncomfortable for them to see their friend cry, which is completely understandable.

    23. LH

      Interesting.

    24. PG

      So the first thing they want to do is make it better.

    25. LH

      It's gonna be okay. You're fine.

    26. PG

      It's gonna be okay. Oh, don't cry. Oh, don't cry. When the truth of the matter is-

    27. LH

      Wow

    28. PG

      ... tears have mood-elevating hormones in them. Tears are the brain's way of regulating. So when you stop someone from crying or when you stop yourself from crying, what you're doing is you're stopping the brain from healing itself.

    29. LH

      Wow.

    30. PG

      And so many people, because their intentions are good, they want to stop their friend from crying because they don't like the way it makes them feel. They don't like to see their friend in pain. But when I have a friend who's crying, no, I don't like to see my friend in pain. But I understand it's not my job to stop them from feeling. It's my job in this moment to sit with them in that feeling. So-

  7. 29:49 – 36:28

    Can Sociopaths Truly Change?

    1. PG

      doesn't mean that I wanna create more of it.

    2. LH

      Mm.

    3. PG

      Doesn't mean that I enjoy seeing someone in pain. If I see somebody fall down on the sidewalk, I will help them up.

    4. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    5. PG

      Now-

    6. LH

      You're not gonna kick them down when they're-

    7. PG

      No. No. Am I gonna sit there and talk to them for 45 minutes? No.

    8. LH

      That's-

    9. PG

      But-

    10. LH

      That's more me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughs]

    11. PG

      But here's the thing, though, and there's nothing wrong with that either, but I think in society today, there's, there's an overemphasis on things have to come from the heart.

    12. LH

      Uh-huh.

    13. PG

      You know? Oh, it, you have to mean it. Yeah, it has to, it, yeah, it has to come from an, an emotional place, and that's simply, that's simply untrue.

    14. LH

      Yeah. Wow. So is it possible for psychopaths to actually change?

    15. PG

      Yeah.

    16. LH

      How?

    17. PG

      Through a process called resocialization.

    18. LH

      Oh.

    19. PG

      So similar to what I was talking about with kids who are neurotypical, they learn how to become socialized with o- among other children, with other children, through modeling, through examples, through experience.

    20. LH

      But as an adult, is it harder?

    21. PG

      I don't know that it is.

    22. LH

      Hmm.

    23. PG

      It certainly wasn't harder for me. It's... But, but antisocial children, they don't learn that way. They learn in a different way. Um, again, because they're missing those cohorts, they don't have peers, everything has to start selfishly. So-

    24. LH

      Right

    25. PG

      ... right. So instead of-

    26. LH

      If you're the only child, did you have more tendencies to have these traits as well, if you're the only child or something like that, or?

    27. PG

      Positive reinforcement. So punishment does not work with antisocial social children at all. Punishment... And by the way, punishment doesn't really work with pro-social children.

    28. LH

      Mm.

    29. PG

      I mean, the research indicates that-

    30. LH

      Yeah

  8. 36:28 – 43:32

    Thrill-Seeking & Releasing Pressure

    1. LH

      where you realized, "Oh, I don't want to do this anymore," or was it more just like, "It's not worth the price I'm paying of potentially getting caught-

    2. PG

      Mm-hmm

    3. LH

      ... or the pain I'm causing others?" Like, what made you decide to not do those things anymore?

    4. PG

      Well, it's interesting, 'cause I had a similar situation with my mom where she found a box in my closet full of things that I had stolen, and she-

    5. LH

      That wasn't yours, yeah

    6. PG

      ... right. And she, same thing, she made me take it all back. But I remember thinking, and again, I wouldn't have had the tools at the time, but when I think back, I remember being relieved. Like, yes, like I... It was almost like, "Yeah, let's give it all back. I don't want this stuff." What, what I want is someone-

    7. LH

      Connection

    8. PG

      ... to help me, yes, and someone to help me understand why I have this compulsion to take it.

    9. LH

      Mm.

    10. PG

      So it's like, yeah, maybe one of... Can somebody help, uh, uh, figure this out? I don't, I don't want-

    11. LH

      Wow

    12. PG

      ... and also this box is getting more and more full. I don't want any of this stuff. I'm gonna have to find a... So this was actually not-

    13. LH

      That's-

    14. PG

      ... like, great. I can-

    15. LH

      You didn't want the things. You, you were just, it was more the thrill, I guess-

    16. PG

      Yes

    17. LH

      ... of the experience.

    18. PG

      Yes. But it wasn't I had no remorse.

    19. LH

      Yeah.

    20. PG

      Not, and again, not like I have no remorse 'cause I hate you and I don't care, but because I, it, it, I didn't really want the stuff. I, I wanted someone to help me understand why I was feeling like I had to take it. But later, when I was, I had put myself in college on what I call my disciplined acts of deviance. I called it my, like my destruction schedule, I think, and it was just these, you know, breaking into homes and, and doing things, um, regularly in the hopes of offsetting, like, a bigger, uh, destructive act. I found that-

    21. LH

      Really?

    22. PG

      ... yeah, if I, I had this-

    23. LH

      Wow

    24. PG

      ... this tension, um, this pressure I felt, and if I didn't do something to alleviate that tension-

    25. LH

      You needed to release.

    26. PG

      Yes. And if I-

    27. LH

      There would be a big explosion.

    28. PG

      Correct.

    29. LH

      Wow.

    30. PG

      So I remember doing these small... Now, I understand breaking into homes [laughs] isn't exactly what somebody would say is small, but in my mind it was.

  9. 43:32 – 53:19

    Self-Awareness & Healing Trauma

    1. PG

      Mm-hmm.

    2. LH

      It could become an identity for people-

    3. PG

      Sure

    4. LH

      ... forever.

    5. PG

      Yeah.

    6. LH

      And if we don't learn the, I guess the emotional or spiritual tools to release things, we're always gonna be finding g- defaulting back to our old ways of being, of acting out, I guess, and doing it in other ways.

    7. PG

      Yeah. It's like Whac-A-Mole. You hit one-

    8. LH

      Yes

    9. PG

      ... another one's gonna come up.

    10. LH

      Yeah. And this is where I'm assuming, you know, you're the therapist, I'm assuming this is where addiction stems from.

    11. PG

      Yes.

    12. LH

      Whether it be alcohol, drugs-

    13. PG

      Yeah

    14. LH

      ... pornography, whatever-

    15. PG

      Mm-hmm

    16. LH

      ... it be. Stealing, cheating, lying, whatever it is, it's like, what is the vice of choice to give someone a release?

    17. PG

      Mm-hmm.

    18. LH

      So how does someone, whether they're a psychopath or have had trauma or they have anxiety, depression, or any type of symptoms that causes pain inside of them, how does someone truly heal to not have to have a negative vice create a release, but they can create freedom from within without needing those things?

    19. PG

      I always say that 80% of the work is in awareness. You have to be aware of a problem before you can solve the problem.

    20. LH

      Yeah.

    21. PG

      And that's so much. Like, so many of the things you've said have started with, "Well, I realized that this was going on with me, and I realized that I didn't wanna make these choices anymore." And that awareness, it seems to come more naturally to you based on the stories you've told and the age you were when you were having these realizations. But once you are aware, course correction, it's not easy-

    22. LH

      Yeah

    23. PG

      ... but it is so much more manageable. It's that awareness, and I think that's where so many people struggle, is that they're making these choices and engaging in these behaviors, and they don't have any mind-body connection. They don't see how their actions are a direct result of something that has happened in the past.

    24. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    25. PG

      And so it's hard, but you really can't be helped until you... I mean, it's just like anything. You have to know there's a problem.

    26. LH

      Right.

    27. PG

      And nobody can want it for you.

    28. LH

      Interesting.

    29. PG

      Mm-hmm. But once, once you are aware, once you can sit and say, "Oh, I am now drawing a line between this memory or this trauma and this behavior. I see what's going on." And, but in this world, everything's so fast, right? It takes some quiet. It takes some stillness. And unfortunately-

    30. LH

      Wow

  10. 53:19 – 1:03:37

    Overcoming People-Pleasing Habits

    1. LH

      to not being a people pleaser? For the, 'cause obviously a lot of people in the world struggle with-

    2. PG

      Yeah

    3. LH

      ... doing things they don't wanna do to please others-

    4. PG

      Yeah. Um-

    5. LH

      ... and changing who they are to make someone else happy.

    6. PG

      Mm-hmm.

    7. LH

      So what is the key to overcoming the people pleaser disease that a lot of people have?

    8. PG

      Well, okay, so it's a, it's, I have an answer, but I'm gonna go to what I, I've been thinking a lot about relationships and about love. 'Cause I get asked a lot, you know, what is love like? 'Cause they say psychopaths can't love, or they struggle to. And that, I would say yeah, that is true in the sense that I do struggle to love the way a neurotypical person does. And-

    9. LH

      So how do you love then?

    10. PG

      So it seems to me that neurotypical people, so much of their love is tethered to their own sense of self-worth. So my biggest fear when I'm in a relationship with someone is that I'm gonna hurt them in some way. Either I'm going to, my love's not going to be enough for them, and they're going to feel, um, injured as a result of my inability to meet them emotionally. It's always, my biggest fear is that I'm going to hurt them. But when I talk to my neurotypical friends, their biggest fear is that they're going to be left. They're going to be abandoned.

    11. LH

      Mm.

    12. PG

      And the whole, um-

    13. LH

      Interesting

    14. PG

      ... the you complete me argument-

    15. LH

      Yeah

    16. PG

      ... seems to be at play a lot in neurotypical love.

    17. LH

      And if you're not w- if you don't love me, then who am I?

    18. PG

      Then I am somehow less than.

    19. LH

      I'm not enough.

    20. PG

      Yes. And-

    21. LH

      So that's when I change constantly-

    22. PG

      Correct

    23. LH

      ... to make you love me.

    24. PG

      Yes, because, and I would argue, y- that's not love.

    25. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    26. PG

      That's you trying to- Build your self-esteem through a relationship with someone else

    27. LH

      Gosh, I feel like I did that so many times-

    28. PG

      Yes

    29. LH

      ... when I was younger.

    30. PG

      Yeah.

  11. 1:03:37 – 1:07:04

    3 Keys to Self-Confidence

    1. LH

      them doing the work for themselves on their inner container?

    2. PG

      I think a lot of it is, a lot of that is modeling. A lot of that is watching. You know, is, is making sure that I set the best example that I can-

    3. LH

      Mm-hmm

    4. PG

      ... that I'm not using unhealthy coping mechanisms, that I'm not-

    5. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    6. PG

      You know, they see... Kids, you know, monkey see, monkey do. They see a confidence, and then they feel safe to practice their own confidence.

    7. LH

      Mm.

    8. PG

      You know, I'm not modeling something that I... that is un- unhealthy, but i-

    9. LH

      Mm, mm

    10. PG

      ... in that sense.

    11. LH

      So it's modeling. It's not saying something to them.

    12. PG

      It's that, too, but again, like, how many times have you said something, you know, to somebody-

    13. LH

      No, they don't listen

    14. PG

      ... and no listen? No.

    15. LH

      Yeah.

    16. PG

      Um-

    17. LH

      They watch you.

    18. PG

      Yeah.

    19. LH

      What are three things that you do to model for your kids to develop self-confidence and-

    20. PG

      Boundaries. Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.

    21. LH

      Okay.

    22. PG

      'Cause that's confidence.

    23. LH

      With who?

    24. PG

      It's just anyone. So if there's, if there's someone that's being disrespectful, I say something. Um, it's funny. There was a show, I don't know if it's still on. It was on ABC for a long time. It was, um, What Would You Do? where they brought a camera crew in-

    25. LH

      Uh-huh

    26. PG

      ... and they would set up these scenarios-

    27. LH

      Yeah

    28. PG

      ... where, like, somebody's putting a drink, and I always used to joke, like, "They're lucky I'm not on that show."

    29. LH

      Yes.

    30. PG

      You know, but I... If I see something, I say something. I really do. I have-

  12. 1:07:04 – 1:12:43

    Sociopaths vs Narcissists

    1. PG

      It's such a good question and I love, um, answering it. So a lot of the behavior is similar. Okay? So narcissists and ge- and interestingly enough, um, borderline personality disorder, a lot of the behavior associated with narcissism and psychopathy and borderline personality disorder, they are very similar in that they are destructive and, um, and often harmful to others. But they all have different motivations.

    2. LH

      Mm.

    3. PG

      So narcissists, people say, "Oh, narcissists don't feel any shame," but actually that's not true.

    4. LH

      They live in shame.

    5. PG

      That's their whole problem.

    6. LH

      They are shame.

    7. PG

      They are shame.

    8. LH

      But they don't want anyone else to see that.

    9. PG

      Because they ha- they don't, they can't process that shame.

    10. LH

      Ah.

    11. PG

      So the way that they cope with it is through grandiosity and, um, and superiority, and making others feel small.

    12. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    13. PG

      Whereas psychopaths engage in destructive behavior because they don't have that, and they're, it's almost like they're trying to force a feeling.

    14. LH

      Oh.

    15. PG

      Uh, borderline personality disorder, you're often dealing with, often, not always, you're often dealing with people who connection is the most important. The loss of love is, uh, unconsciously perceived as, I mean, almost lethal. So someone who has an extreme, uh, borderline personality will go to any lengths to be loved, and for them, getting you to love me is my right.

    16. LH

      Mm.

    17. PG

      So if you pull away from me, I will do anything to get you back, and it's, and, and m- my heart's in the right place. I just want to be loved. But it's like, but you're acting in a way that's incredibly damaging.

    18. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    19. PG

      But I'm just doing it 'cause I wanna be loved, and I have a real... It's funny, I have a real issue with intent. Um, people a lot like to say, "Well, that wasn't my intention," and-

    20. LH

      But it was your actions

    21. PG

      ... who cares?

    22. LH

      Yeah, yeah.

    23. PG

      You know? I, I get so fired up over the intention argument. You know, someone will say, "Well, it wasn't my intention to hurt your feelings."

    24. LH

      Mm.

    25. PG

      And it's like, oh, you wanna get into intent? Like, I can go toe-to-toe on intent all day.

    26. LH

      [laughs]

    27. PG

      Like, guess what? My intent was to hurt your feelings.

    28. LH

      Sure.

    29. PG

      At the end of the day, now your feelings are hurt and my feelings are hurt, but you're somehow better because it wasn't your intent?

    30. LH

      Mm-hmm.

  13. 1:12:43 – 1:29:45

    Teaching Kids Emotional Tools

    1. PG

      kid. Um, ask them, "How does it feel when you feel?" And then give them, give those kids the space to respond in a way that you can contain. Because asking a kid, "How does it feel when you feel?" And allowing them to respond uncensored teaches those kids that their feelings matter. And teaches them how to process those feelings, you know? So a lot of times, how does it feel when you, when you feel if you're asking an antisocial kid. Say, let's say the antisocial kid says, "I feel nothing, and I don't, I, and I don't care about anyone." A parent's gonna go, "Oh, don't say that," or, "You don't mean that." As opposed to, "Wow, that's probably pretty lonely, huh?" Like, give that kid the space, and-

    2. LH

      Hmm

    3. PG

      ... maybe-

    4. LH

      Don't force them to feel something you would want them to feel.

    5. PG

      Right. Don't-

    6. LH

      Hmm

    7. PG

      ... don't constantly measure any child against the normal emotional response.

    8. LH

      That's interesting.

    9. PG

      Because that teaches a kid that the only response that is appropriate is the normal one.

    10. LH

      And they're bad and wrong for having that feeling.

    11. PG

      Correct.

    12. LH

      Yeah.

    13. PG

      And who's to say that normal emotional res- who's making that decision anyway? Who came up with that metric?

    14. LH

      Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

    15. PG

      Like, who got to decide what's right and wrong?

    16. LH

      Yeah.

    17. PG

      I don't remember sitting in on that class. But if I... My kids are, are neurotypical. I know how it feels when they feel bad, so I'll say, you know, "I heard you, you know, got into a fight with so-and-so today." "Yeah, he was being a real jerk." You know, "How did that feel?" Like, how did that... You know, "Well, I was really mad." And it's like, "Yeah, I bet. That, that, you know, that, that probably really sucked 'cause you're friends, right?"

    18. LH

      Yeah.

    19. PG

      "Yes, we're friends, and it, he really hurt my feelings." Okay, so now we're getting somewhere now.

    20. LH

      Oh, okay.

    21. PG

      "Oh, wow, yeah." And just teaching these kids how to, how to identify emotions in the moment and talking through it, you're teaching a kid how to process.

    22. LH

      Uh-huh, in a healthier way.

    23. PG

      Yes.

    24. LH

      By communicating rather than-

    25. PG

      By communicating

    26. LH

      ... addictions-

    27. PG

      Yes

    28. LH

      ... or something else.

    29. PG

      Right.

    30. LH

      Or reacting with anger or-

  14. 1:29:45 – 1:40:06

    Guilt, Shame, & Moral Codes

    1. LH

      isn't it good for us to have some shame?

    2. PG

      Yes.

    3. LH

      It's like good for us to-

    4. PG

      Oh, yeah

    5. LH

      ... not do bad things, right?

    6. PG

      Yeah.

    7. LH

      But a narcissist is filled with shame.

    8. PG

      Unconscious shame.

    9. LH

      Unconscious. Okay, unconscious.

    10. PG

      Oh, yeah. They would... Yeah. A narcissist will tell you they're not ashamed of anything.

    11. LH

      But it's like in their body. Yeah. And then so how much shame should we have? You know, how much is too much or not enough? And is it good to have shame? And I guess as- as a psy- a sociopath, do you experience shame? How does that work?

    12. PG

      I don't. And- and-

    13. LH

      [laughs] So it's good to have. You don't have-

    14. PG

      I do think it's good to have. I do think. I mean, everything in moderation, right?

    15. LH

      Sure, sure.

    16. PG

      I think that these constructs, like holistically, serve a really good purpose. Guilt in moderation is really... It's important-

    17. LH

      Yeah

    18. PG

      ... to have guilt from a-

    19. LH

      But if it's all day long.

    20. PG

      That's the problem-

    21. LH

      Yeah, yeah

    22. PG

      ... is that these tools, I think, have been utilized, particularly by religion, to keep-

    23. LH

      I know

    24. PG

      ... people in check, and they've become overly utilized.

    25. LH

      Right.

    26. PG

      You know, there have been lots of times where it's, where I've thought to myself, "Yeah, shame would've been helpful in that." Like... [laughs]

    27. LH

      [laughs] Maybe I should add a little shame there.

    28. PG

      Yeah, like, "Hmm, I can see how that could've saved me a-"

    29. LH

      Interesting

    30. PG

      ... "you know, a few steps."

  15. 1:40:06 – 1:46:39

    3 Golden Truths for Life

    1. LH

      But on the last day, um, you get to leave behind three lessons to the world that we would get to keep, we would remember. I call it three truths. What would be those three truths for you?

    2. PG

      There is nothing inherently evil about limited access to emotion. Two, it's not what we feel, it's what we do.

    3. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    4. PG

      Three, it's already yours.

    5. LH

      What?

    6. PG

      Whatever. Whatever you want, it's already yours. If you can operate from a place of, yeah, it's already mine-

    7. LH

      Mm

    8. PG

      ... then you don't have to live in want. You don't have to live in need. It's, it's already yours. Operate from a place of fulfillment now.

    9. LH

      Mm.

    10. PG

      Not I will be when, but it's already yours.

    11. LH

      How do you do that in your life? If there's something you want that you don't have now, how do you say it's already mine even though it's technically not yet?

    12. PG

      Well, it's interesting because one of the hallmarks of a, or one of the traits of psychopathy is, um, unrealistic life term, or, uh, unrealistic life goals, and I always say, well, I would argue with the word unrealistic because my goals might seem unrealistic to a neurotypical person because that's because I don't internalize failure.

    13. LH

      Mm.

    14. PG

      So when I was starting out with the book and they said, "What do you want?" I was like, "I'm gonna have, I want this, this, this, this, and this." And they said, "Well, that's... No." And I said, "No, it's, that's what it's gonna be. You don't have to believe it, but it's, I've decided that that's how it's gonna be, and that's what it is." And I understand that that's because of my personality. It's unrealistic. It's unreasonable. I sound like an insane person, but it's not coming from a place of I'm the best, I'm gonna have it 'cause I'm the best. I'm gonna have it because I have so much pride or so much... It's, no, it's already mine. I already have it. It's just a matter of time before you understand that I already have it.

    15. LH

      Mm.

    16. PG

      A- and, and it's funny because somebody said, "Well, that's like manifestation." And I read about it. I was like, oh, you know, it's funny, it is manifestation, but s- when I started looking at manifestation, it's like all these suggestions, these are all psychopathic traits.

    17. LH

      Mm.

    18. PG

      You know, this is, this is basically a psychopathic point of view where it's, well, don't worry about what other people think. I don't. Don't worry about failure. I don't. Ask for whatever you want, and don't think about being in trouble. Don't think about it not being available. I would never think about that.

    19. LH

      Interesting.

    20. PG

      Right. So when I approach something, as long as, you know, as long as it's... It's never anything like I want something horrible to befall someone-

    21. LH

      Yeah, yeah, yeah

    22. PG

      ... but it's something where I can help other people like me. It's, it's very matter of fact. There's no emotion to it. It's this is what's going to happen next, 'cause-

    23. LH

      That's interesting.

    24. PG

      Yes.

    25. LH

      So it's almost like s- healthy psychopathic traits-

    26. PG

      Yeah

    27. LH

      ... is the ultimate key to manifestation.

    28. PG

      I would a- yes.

    29. LH

      What would be the main traits that psychopaths have that allow them to manifest whatever they want in a healthy way?

    30. PG

      Uh, we don't internalize failure.

Episode duration: 1:46:39

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