Andrew Huberman: Focus, Stress, Relationships, and Friendship | Lex Fridman Podcast #277

1. 0:00 – 1:15

   Introduction

   1. AHAndrew Huberman0:00

      If you get into a sauna the way I just described, not the two hours a day, but 30 minutes twice a week or three times per week, you reduce the likelihood of dying of a cardiovascular event by 27%.

   2. LFLex Fridman0:12

      (exhales)

   3. AHAndrew Huberman0:12

      If you do it four or more times per week, you reduce the probability of dying by 50%.

   4. LFLex Fridman0:18

      Is there any scientific evidence that being naked is beneficial in the sauna?

   5. AHAndrew Huberman0:22

      Well, in certain contexts, it leads to, um, childbirth.

   6. LFLex Fridman0:25

      Okay. Well, I'll-

   7. AHAndrew Huberman0:26

      Uh...

   8. LFLex Fridman0:26

      ... have to read up on that.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman0:27

      I think Dorothy Parker said, uh, "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity."

   10. LFLex Fridman0:36

       The following is a conversation with Andrew Huberman. His third time on this podcast. He's a brilliant neuroscientist at Stanford University and the host of one of the best, the best if you ask me, health and science podcast in the world called Huberman Lab Podcast. Check him out on Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube. Most importantly, Andrew is a great human being and has quickly become a great friend. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now, dear friends, here's to Andrew Huberman.

2. 1:15 – 11:20

   Diet

   1. LFLex Fridman1:15

      We meet again, my friend. Uh, we should talk on each other's podcast once a year. I think we should make a deal. I was just talking to the guys at this show called Louis. I don't know if you know it. And...

   2. AHAndrew Huberman1:26

      Louis C.K.?

   3. LFLex Fridman1:26

      Yeah, with Louis C.K., and (laughs) there's this thing called bang bang, which people that are probably watching know exactly what I'm talking about. It's this worst possible thing you can do in terms of meals, which is you go to a restaurant, do a full meal, and then you go to another restaurant and do a full meal, and you pa-

   4. AHAndrew Huberman1:43

      Ugh.

   5. LFLex Fridman1:44

      You... (laughs) That's exactly...

   6. AHAndrew Huberman1:45

      It sounds brutal.

   7. LFLex Fridman1:46

      So they go Mexican, Italian, sushi, pizza, barbecue, IHOP, that, that one is disgusting. This kind of thing reminds me of the joy of food.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman1:58

      Last time we were hanging out, we went, we went to see Joe do comedy-

   9. LFLex Fridman2:01

      Yeah.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman2:01

       ... and then we went to eat Russian food.

   11. LFLex Fridman2:04

       Yeah.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman2:04

       And it was a particularly fun experience to go to a Russian restaurant. I was the only-

   13. LFLex Fridman2:12

       Yeah.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman2:12

       ... person there that didn't speak Russian.

   15. LFLex Fridman2:14

       Yeah.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman2:14

       And eat Russian food with you. And, um, 'cause I felt walking in, they, they trusted you. They didn't trust me.

   17. LFLex Fridman2:21

       Yeah. The funny thing about the, the people there, they were talking to you in Russian. (laughs) And then they refused to sort of, uh, switch to English even though they understood you speak no Russian. This is Russian House in Austin, by the way. Uh, anyway, what... Uh, by way of question, what's the worst or, or the best depending on your perspective cheap meal, let's call it a pigging out meal, but it could be a cheap meal, uh, that you've ever had or you want to have that's like on the bucket list or something that's in the past? Like, where you did the, something like a bang bang, which is like, you're, you're talking about multiple thousands of calories that you just feel horrible about yourself, but you still keep eating 'cause it's delicious, but also great company. Something about the atmosphere is just right. Screw the diet, screw all the things, you know, just like you should be doing, but just throw it all out the window.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman3:14

       I've done that.

   19. LFLex Fridman3:15

       (laughs) Multiple times? So...

   20. AHAndrew Huberman3:16

       Uh, several times. Yeah, I don't do this anymore, but, um, the entire time I was a post-doc, so five years, and the entire time I was a pre-tenured professor, so five years, so I basically followed the, uh, Tim Ferriss low-carb diet, which is, you know, people can look it up. But it worked really well. It was basically some, you know, like good animal proteins, you know, fish and meat and things like that.

   21. LFLex Fridman3:38

       Why slow carb? Oh, because it's complex carbs.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman3:39

       Because it's slow carb 'cause it's like low-glycemic stuff.

   23. LFLex Fridman3:41

       Gotcha, yeah.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman3:41

       It's mostly lentils and beans and, and things and vegetables. No, no dairy, no, um... Anyway, but then one day...

   25. LFLex Fridman3:48

       Is pasta in there? Sorry to interrupt.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman3:49

       No. No pasta. So it wasn't low carb, but it was low-glycemic carb. And I did that, and it worked terrifically well just for energy levels 'cause I wanted to be able to train and work. And then one day a week, you're supposed to go full cheat day. And so I would do...

   27. LFLex Fridman4:03

       Nice.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman4:03

       ... what used to be 12 hours, but then it became 24, you know, p- you start to redefine what the day is.

   29. LFLex Fridman4:09

       Yeah.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman4:09

       Um, and I would... And that was when Costello was pretty young, and we would do it together. So I would get pizzas and croissants and donuts, and I would just do the full thing. And by the end of the day, you don't wanna look at a- an item of food. You're just repulsed by food. The only modification I made was the next day, I would fast completely just to avoid the gastric distress of eating anything. And, um, so I would do them on Sundays, and then Mondays, I'd fast all day, and then by Tuesday, I felt pretty good again. But Sunday and Monday are you just feel like you're sliding down the slope of just blood sugar disaster.
3. 11:20 – 14:02

   Attribution in science

   1. AHAndrew Huberman11:20

      Um, also in science, as you know, attribution is so baked into what we do. And, um, and I think that it's interesting 'cause, uh, now spending a lot of time on social media, attribution is not as common.

   2. LFLex Fridman11:31

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman11:31

      And, um, but in academia you learn really early on that if you give a talk about your data and you cite all these amazing sources, all it does is make you look better, right?

   4. LFLex Fridman11:42

      Yeah.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman11:42

      Whereas in social media and elsewhere in the business sector, it's almost like citing other people, p- people feel as if it's gonna take away some of the credit.

   6. LFLex Fridman11:49

      Yeah.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman11:49

      All it does is place you in the company of people that do really nice work. So I have tremen- and I have genuine and tremendous respect for Tim. He's been about 10 years ahead on a, a huge number of health-related things and other things, and extremely kind person, very thoughtful person. So it's also just a pleasure to shine light on other people, right?

   8. LFLex Fridman12:05

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I actually, to push back, I, I know there's a culture of if you, you write a paper...... standing on the shoulders of giants is a powerful thing. But there's also a culture of not giving credit to the strongest idea in your paper, and instead say it's kind of, or imply that it's original.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman12:24

      Mm.

   10. LFLex Fridman12:25

       There is a culture of kind of not celebrating others. I think people get most competitive in all walks of life, but especially in science when they're, as, the closer they get in the exactly the thing they work on. And so, there's this dance, you know, there's a few researchers in, in each of the individual little things that you work on. Uh, if you're studying a particular kind of ant, you know that other asshole that also is studying that particular ant, and then you're not going to often give credit for the brilliant ideas that that other researcher's doing. And I think one of the things you've discovered and just is part of your nature, and which is why it's, it's really great that you've, uh, have an audience and you inspire others to do the same, is you celebrate that other ant studier. It's great, and you, everybody wins. It ra- it raises all boats. But that initial instinct to be like, uh, what is it in Borat? Like, "My neighbor, my neighbor gets a, a toaster, I get a bigger toaster."

   11. AHAndrew Huberman13:26

       (laughs)

   12. LFLex Fridman13:27

       That... (laughs)

   13. AHAndrew Huberman13:27

       Yeah, that mindset to, you know, it's not that I'm not competitive in certain domains, but, um, yeah, I get great pleasure from, um, sharing things that I find, and, um, I think that, you know, at the end of the day, you're as strong as your community, and you can build a wonderful community just by pointing out things that you love. Like, these are all just loves. I see a paper and I love it, only rarely do I think, "Ah, I wish we had done that." I usually think, "Fantastic, now I can just focus on something else," 'cause they checked off that box.

   14. LFLex Fridman13:59

       And by the way, you mentioned PubMed and, and barbecue.

4. 14:02 – 21:48

   Rick Rubin

   1. LFLex Fridman14:02

      I, I should mention that I got a chance to hang out with, uh, Rick Rubin thanks to you. He's a friend of yours and you made the connection. That was a huge gift to my spirit, I guess. He's a truly, truly special human being. And i- uh, there's a lot I could say about why he's a special human being. I'd love to learn how you met him, but I, I should also just mention on the PubMed thing, it was so interesting talking to him about music, and, uh, both on the podcast and, uh, privately, and just listening to music together. Because when you mention a song, he does this thing where he like closes his eyes and he finds that song in the album that we're talking about, and he steps through the album. You could, you could see the brain like stepping through individual songs to find that song in the album, and there's that kind of look up process, and then he puts himself mentally in that space of like, "Okay, this is, uh," you know, whatever the album is, and not just the ones he produced, but all of it. He's an encyclopedia of, of music, and it's so interesting. It, it also, uh, the thing I really love about him is something like a calmness that radiates from him, that it's okay to close your eyes and place yourself in, in the, in the place where that album was recorded, in the feeling of that album, and like that, that silence, let's go there. Let's go there together. It's like Alice in Wonderland, and we'll go there together.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman15:28

      You do a good Rick Rubin.

   3. LFLex Fridman15:30

      Yeah.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman15:30

      Minus the beard.

   5. LFLex Fridman15:31

      Minus the beard.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman15:31

      His beard is epic, right? N- you can't fake a beard like that, you know? Uh...

   7. LFLex Fridman15:36

      How'd you guys meet?

   8. AHAndrew Huberman15:37

      Yeah, well, Rick, uh, I'm very blessed to cons- consider a, a, a close friend. Um, Rick and I got introduced through a common friend during the pandemic, and we started doing some FaceTime together and just talking about things related to science and health. And I l- I'm not a musician, I have no musical ability or talent. I have a good ability to memorize lyrics, and I love lyrics, and I love poetry.

   9. LFLex Fridman16:00

      Mm-hmm.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman16:00

       So, I asked him a lot of questions about musicians that I happen to love that he's worked with and knows, and so he would give me stories about musicians and I would talk to him about health, and then th- eventually we formed a friendship where we would talk about any number of different topics in life, and then we started spending time together in person, uh, when he was in town or nearby. And as you now know, uh, you know, Rick, in addition to all his incredible accomplishments, has an incredible understanding of how to get the brain and body into state.

   11. LFLex Fridman16:36

       Mm-hmm.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman16:36

       Right? And as you pointed out, he's willing to do the things that allow him to help, uh, these incredible artists get into the best state to do their craft. And so, if he needs to sit there and be quiet with his eyes closed for a minute or two and, or more, uh, he'll do that. Um, he has routines to allow himself to get into state, and it's really inspired me to think about states of mind as something that, you know, we'd all love to just, uh, just flip the switch and say, "We're focused," or, "We're creative." But, um, to actually ratchet through the, the challenging steps in order to do that and to figure out what one needs to do on a regular basis to get into a proper state. It's not just gonna come from a cup of coffee, a, a, you know, a, a lamp of a particular wavelength or something. It's gonna be those things, but it's also going to be really teaching oneself how to get into proper state.

   13. LFLex Fridman17:28

       Yeah, you did an episode on hypnosis. Do you think it's a kind of self-hypnosis?

   14. AHAndrew Huberman17:32

       Yes, I do. Um, because hypnosis is a con- you limit the context, you're very alert, and you're very calm. And, um, he has a number of these different practices and, and so we would talk about those, and then we also have enjoyed a lot of discussions about deep neuroscience. In fact, I introduced Rick to a friend of mine who's a neurosurgeon and neuroscientist, and they've become friendly. You know, Rick is one of these people that he sort of defies definition. Um, incredibly kind. Incredibly private person too, so, you know, I'm, I'm being respectful of that. But, um, and then, of course, uh, he's a fan of your podcast, and so-

   15. LFLex Fridman18:08

       (laughs)

   16. AHAndrew Huberman18:08

       ... when I learned that, I, I, it just made natural sense to introduce you, and I know he really enjoyed meeting you. And, um, we talk about you a lot, and, and of course, in a positive light. You know, I think his dedication to getting into these states of mind and his willingness to do that has completely transformed my routines around life. Like, for instance, before doing a very long podcast recording, the solo ones which often take me several hours or more, six hours to record, s- sometimes more, sometimes less, I realized that there's a certain brain state associated with that, so I have to really limit the kind of interactions I have for the two hours before. I actually walk and talk out loud through my neighborhood. People think I'm crazy.

   17. LFLex Fridman18:46

       Yeah.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman18:47

       But I live in a neighborhood where there are a lot of crazy...... creatives anyway, so-

   19. LFLex Fridman18:51

       Are you saying you're not crazy?

   20. AHAndrew Huberman18:52

       (laughs) Well-

   21. LFLex Fridman18:53

       Yeah.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman18:53

       ... um, at least not institutionally-

   23. LFLex Fridman18:55

       Right.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman18:56

       ... uh, uh, defined as-

   25. LFLex Fridman18:56

       You know-

   26. AHAndrew Huberman18:56

       ... crazy yet. But, um, you know, getting into state of mind is something that we'd all just imagine we flip the switch, but Rick really convinced me, you have to do the work to do the work.

   27. LFLex Fridman19:06

       Can you maybe, uh, linger on that lucidity a little bit more, your process of g- how you get in that space? That's really interesting 'cause I, uh, have to admit, I do everything last minute before a podcast. I don't know, uh, like there's a lot of anxiety because like whatever, i- if I have to pack, if I have to set up stuff. You were luckily a few minutes, you showed up a few minutes later than you were supposed to.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman19:30

       Which for an academic is right on time.

   29. LFLex Fridman19:32

       Right on time. But the stress is immense. And, uh, w- on top of that, you look at like a situation with Rick Rubin, is I, I had to set up microphones in front of him. And just that stress, the anxiety.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman19:47

       He knows a lot about microphones.
5. 21:48 – 36:28

   Mental states

   1. AHAndrew Huberman21:48

   2. LFLex Fridman21:48

      So can you speak to your, that process? You mentioned the walking and the talking to yourself 'cause that's fascinating.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman21:53

      Yeah. I try and do a couple of things. Um, first of all, I, when I was a kid, I had a little bit of a grunting tic. Um, when I was five or six, um, I would feel this build up of tension in my throat, and I would do this grunting tic. If I get very tired, I start to do it still. We actually know that this is related to these basal ganglia circuits for go/no-go. You've got an accelerator and a brake basically in your neural circuitry. And, um, kids with Tourette's and OCD, um, the brake doesn't work quite as well. And so one thing that happens is if I wake up in the morning and I'm, especially if I'm well-rested, well, if I'm not well-rested, I do a hypnosis or yoga nidra in order to recover my sleep. That works really well. But then once I'm into the process of preparing the podcast, I've already gone through my notes. I know what I wanna say more or less in a j- kind of general contour, and then I take a walk, and I, I try to as- so no phone with me, and I try to assess whether or not my energy is too high or too low for podcasting.

   4. LFLex Fridman22:51

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman22:52

      Because when you podcast, as you know, you, you have to punch out a lot of material, but then there's times when you really need to slow down and emphasize and articulate. And so, uh, what I do, uh, this is, I don't think I've never revealed this. Uh, what I do actually is I will recite the lyrics of songs for about 10 minutes, um, songs I love, while I walk out loud.

   6. LFLex Fridman23:12

      It calms you and focuses you? What does it do for you?

   7. AHAndrew Huberman23:14

      I think it gets my vocal cords warmed up, and it also-

   8. LFLex Fridman23:19

      Do you sing or speak them?

   9. AHAndrew Huberman23:21

      I often sing them.

   10. LFLex Fridman23:22

       Mm-hmm.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman23:22

       Uh, and fortunately, nobody hears. And as I do this, I start to evaluate whether or not I'm straining to get the words out or whether or not I'm straining to make them slow enough so that I can articulate them. So it's, there are days when I have so much energy that I'm trying to speak faster than I should in order to articulate properly. There are other days when I'm tired and I can't sort of keep up with my thoughts. And so what I try and do is assess that and then adjust the transmission, the RPM, so to speak. For instance, I can speak very quickly and then I can slow down. So I, I can change the cadence of my voice. And when you teach in the classroom, you learn, as you know, 'cause you're an excellent teacher. I've watched your lectures in the classroom. As you teach in the classroom when you want to slow down, every teacher knows you turn to the white board or chalkboard and you start writing, right? It gives you a break. And then you turn around and you fire back the kind of machine gun fire of, of information, and then you slow down or you underline something. When you podcast, you don't have that opportunity, right? There are no visuals in my podcast. So what I try and do is always get my voice warmed up and make sure that I'm thinking and speaking at approximately the same rate. And then I also do this thing of is, I put my vision into panoramic vision when I walk, which is very calming. And then I actually start to remind myself of the purpose of podcasting. This sounds very mission statement-y, but you asked what I do.

   12. LFLex Fridman24:51

       Yeah.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman24:51

       I, I remind myself first...... and foremost that what I want to communicate, what I want to come through is the beauty and utility of biology. And I only feel comfortable saying the word beauty publicly now about science things thanks to you, because, uh, I, I think...

   14. LFLex Fridman25:07

       Love and beauty.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman25:09

       Yeah, love and...

   16. LFLex Fridman25:09

       Embrace it.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman25:10

       Love and beauty.

   18. LFLex Fridman25:10

       Dr. Andrew Huberman.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman25:11

       Love and beauty. Um, but also darkness and hatred and, uh, if you're talking about the Lex Fridman podcast, you have to adjust the, you have to address the shadow also, the shadow side. But I think about the, I want to communicate the, the beauty and utility of biology. And then I, I check my, my emotional state. I want to make sure that I'm not angry about anything. And certainly, if I am, that I'm going to set it aside for the podcast 'cause that's not a place for, for my, whatever I might be dealing with. I also really start to feel into the parts of the research and the papers I found that I really love, because that's the part of me that, uh, I like the most, frankly. (laughs) Um, and on the podcast, if there's a paper... Like, for instance, we have a paper, uh, excuse me, a podcast coming out soon about, um, heat as a tool. You know, sauna, but some other things. And in researching this, I learned so much about, um, these heat shock proteins and the use of sauna in Finland for increasing growth hormone, but also for the treatment of mental illness. And I, and I realized I, I fell in love with this literature. It's just a beautiful literature. These people are true pioneers for doing this work. Now everyone's in the sauna, but this was 20 years ago. The way the experiments were done were amazing with all these Finnish people with thermocouples up their rectum to measure temperature, swimming in pools. It's, it's hilarious and great. And so, I start to think about it and I think... You know, I just start to really access my love of the, the work. And then when we finally sit down, meaning my producer, Rob and I, and record, I just sort of want to just bask in, in sharing it. Just like the little version of me when I was six or seven, I used to spend all weekend reading the Encyclopedia Guinness Book of World Records, making my mother drive me places to introduce me to... I had this obsession with trapping animals when I was a kid, meet these people. And then on Monday, I would insist on giving a, a lecture in class just as a little kid. So that's basically what it is. I just try and access that, that childlike energy. And, um, so I want to be clear. Uh, the goal is always to make the information interesting, clear, and actionable, and if it's also surprising, then there, then that's a bonus. But that's basically the process. But yeah, I'm, I'm singing and talking and, and getting into state. And I used to feel very, uh, sheepish about sharing any of this. This is the first time I've ever shared it out loud. But, but Rick was the one who encouraged me to find a process that works and continue to develop that process and not let anything get near that process. People in my personal life know this. And when it's time, it's like, I don't care what else is going o- on, I'm, I'm moving into that brain state.

   20. LFLex Fridman27:47

       And there's probably a process like that for anything that you do in life that you take seriously. So, the people that have perfected this is athletes. Like if, Olympic level athletes, they have to have a process like this.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman27:58

       No, and I think Tiger Woods actually was, um, taught self-hypnosis quite young. Um, and used self-hypnosis often during his tournaments. Sometimes to great, uh, success, and other times less so.

   22. LFLex Fridman28:11

       Is there other places in life that you use kind of a protoco- like a mental protocol to get ready?

   23. AHAndrew Huberman28:20

       Many of the best areas of life are their own form of hypnosis, right? Um...

   24. LFLex Fridman28:25

       True.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman28:25

       You know that you're in hypnosis if, for instance, you're in a movie and something happens and you feel the emotional lift withou- with- without being self-conscious about it. Um, yes, I think that, um, one thing that we've tried to do in our house is around meal times to try and set a state.

   26. LFLex Fridman28:42

       Mm.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman28:42

       That food isn't just something that we just throw down on our, our throats. And I'm fortunate that, you know, my partner cooks really well. And so, I try and give her the space to do that. And it, that's a whole thing of her getting into state. And then...

   28. LFLex Fridman28:56

       For the cooking? The-

   29. AHAndrew Huberman28:56

       For the cooking.

   30. LFLex Fridman28:57

       ... the preparation of all the...
6. 36:28 – 49:10

   Controversial guests

   1. LFLex Fridman36:29

      I think when you do a conversation for several hours, especially when it's a high stakes one, so it's not like you and I now. It's more like it's just chatting and so on.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman36:38

      Right, the world order isn't gonna shift-

   3. LFLex Fridman36:39

      Exactly.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman36:40

      ... according to it. Although, you never know. We can-

   5. LFLex Fridman36:41

      You never know. (laughs)

   6. AHAndrew Huberman36:42

      Knowing you, we'll probably be into some pretty controversial topics in a few minutes. (laughs)

   7. LFLex Fridman36:45

      Oh, boy.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman36:46

      You like to ride the edge more than I do.

   9. LFLex Fridman36:47

      Oh, boy.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman36:48

       There are a number of topics that I just completely avoid, and my response to those is always that, "Uh, I have a lot of opinions about that, but not a lot to say," you know? But whereas you, you've become far, uh, m- braver in terms of the topics you'll encounter, and some of your guests have been a bit controversial, right?

   11. LFLex Fridman37:06

       Yeah.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman37:06

       Some of them are, are people that not a lot of-... pe- that a lot of people don't like, um, and you've, you've been willing to just sit down and ... Maybe it's the jujitsu thing.

   13. LFLex Fridman37:15

       (laughs)

   14. AHAndrew Huberman37:16

       You know?

   15. LFLex Fridman37:16

       I don't know. I, it is tricky. One of my goals for this year is to talk to people that a lot of people really don't like.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman37:24

       Are you gonna share with us? (laughs)

   17. LFLex Fridman37:26

       (laughs)

   18. AHAndrew Huberman37:26

       And here I am. (laughs)

   19. LFLex Fridman37:28

       (laughs) Well, pe- but pe- people like that are in prison-

   20. AHAndrew Huberman37:31

       Right.

   21. LFLex Fridman37:31

       ... major political leaders. I've been thinking a lot about how to talk to really difficult, controversial figures, but find together something with them that's deeply honest about their nature, about the, the ideas they have about the world. Like, reveal something real. And some people, you have to be very careful, some people are very good at hiding the real inside them, even from themselves. That's something I think about a lot. I think about dictators of the past and I put myself in the mindset, well, how do you reveal something real about this person to themselves? I think that, to me, and you kind of spoke to that, but, uh, a great conversation is when, one where both of you discover something new. Like, uh, it's not just ... So I love that too, that's my favorite thing what you mentioned which is allowing your curiosity and you ask all kinds of questions and get excited and to learn from an expert. But also, to push them to discover something about themselves, about their ideas together, and then that discovery. And sometimes, it's, uh, a th- like, n- n- th- we don't see it in the moment, but the audience hears it. It's weird to s- to say like, uh, I would compare it to when you're a musician and you're playing with other musicians, you lose yourself in the moment, yeah, yeah, it's all, it's like it's working right. It's working ...But y- but you don't really, uh, see the big picture impact of what it's working right actually feels like, and that's where the audience, uh, can, c- could see that. Like if you talk to somebody evil, uh, m- you know, for me as an interviewer, I have to empathize with that person. If I want to understand, I have to put myself in that mind space and to put yourself in that mindset, you really have to become that p- you have to pl- you have to understand the evil inside of you.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman39:38

       Mm-hmm.

   23. LFLex Fridman39:38

       Like-

   24. AHAndrew Huberman39:38

       Yeah.

   25. LFLex Fridman39:39

       ... you have, you can't just think, if somebody's in power, and has used that power to abuse others, you can't just be a j- well, I personally, a person who seeks to understand, you can't just be a journalist asking generic questions. You have to put yourself in a, in a place where you're somebody who's given a lot of power and slowly you start to abuse that power, and what does that person become? Who are you? I have to plug myself into those moments in my life in the past where I've been angry at something, uh, and where I've been cruel because I was angry in little ways, but then you magnify them at scale and I have to, I have to go there and that's very human. And then I have to look at another person from across the table from me and understand, well, you're there too, and then you had more opportunity to do truly cruel things. And, and then, um, and then where, like y- I have to plug myself into places where I've been or can imagine I can go where I was cruel to others and was unaware of it. So I was in a mind space where I was thinking that I'm doing good and I was doing not good. Again, I've never gotten the opportunity to do any of those things at, at a large scale, but all of us have done it at a small scale.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman40:54

       Sure.

   27. LFLex Fridman40:54

       And I plug myself into that, and then we're, we're here, we're two, if it's somebody who's in prison, if it's somebody who's a dictator, we're in that space where evil is, is ... All of us have the capacity to do that evil and I have to imagine myself being able to do that evil, and then we're here together in that dark, dark place, and then if it, if it's just right, something real can actually come, something from that person's childhood, a maybe awakening to a realization that I thought I was a good person and I'm not. And f- for, that only happens when you truly em- empathize, and those moments of discovery are, are beautiful, but they also happen in science when you just have a conversation and you, and you realize, uh... I feel like talking to Stephen Wolfram. I feel like we constantlyśmy realize beautiful things together.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman41:48

       On this element of, um, you know, evil and sociopathy that, you know, Jung had this notion that we have all things inside us-

   29. LFLex Fridman41:57

       Yeah.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman41:57

       ... and that we all have the capacity to be good or evil, et cetera. Um, but the, I have, uh, the good fortune of working with somebody who has deep understanding of psychiatry, but also psychoanalysis and Jungian theory and, um, and he said to me recently, he said, "You know, whether or not all people have all things inside them is still debated in the psychology community and in the neuroscience community, and as a matter of philosophy, but there are certain people, not many, but there are certain people for whom they've actually lived out many versions of their possible selves in the first person." And so those are unique individuals that in ... Even if they tapped into these things at a, as you mentioned, as a, at a more minor level as opposed to impacting people negatively at a, at a, at scale. So being able to access those different parts of oneself is, is key and you've been willing to step into that. You know, my podcast is not one in which we, we get down to those matters. Um-
7. 49:10 – 53:25

   Karl Deisseroth

   1. AHAndrew Huberman49:10

   2. LFLex Fridman49:10

      I believe you mentioned Karl Deisseroth. Uh, we'll- we'll- we'll talk about him...

   3. AHAndrew Huberman49:13

      Who's definitely not a narcissist. He's one of the more humble people, but he is brilliant.

   4. LFLex Fridman49:16

      Thanks again to you. You've- you've connected us...Uh, I had the pleasure of, of having a conversation with him. You had a conversation with him. I really enjoyed it, on the podcast. You guys come from the same science, from the same place, uh, maybe different journeys, fascinating Well, and levels. ... things.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman49:32

      We were post-docs together. Karl is truly the Michael Jordan, the Wayne Gretzky, five children, amazing marriage to a, also an amer- amazing scientist. His wife, Michelle Monge's in our neurology department at Stanford. In- incredible thinker, writer, very kind person, uh, humble. Um, speaking of getting into state, sorry Karl, I'm gonna out you on this, but, um, Karl, despite being at the highest levels of science and engineering, and a practicing psychiatrist, his office is literally a coat closet with a small table lamp. When you meet with Karl, if you manage to meet with him...

   6. LFLex Fridman50:10

      Yeah.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman50:10

      ... 'cause he's very hard to get to.

   8. LFLex Fridman50:11

      Mm-hmm.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman50:12

      You walk in, you sit down as if you're going through some interrogation in some spy novel, and he'll ask you, "What are you most excited about lately?" And, "I've got 11 minutes," or something. And that's a meeting with Karl.

   10. LFLex Fridman50:25

       Yeah.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman50:25

       'Cause he's that busy. But he doesn't have the office with the pictures of the kids and the thing and all that. All that is kept elsewhere. So in order to get... I asked him, "Why do you work (laughs) in this office?" Right? "You work on light and channels of light, things related to light, of all things. Here you are in this dark room." And he said, "Well, this is what gets me into the state of mind to be able to do what I want to do," very Rick Rubin e- ish.

   12. LFLex Fridman50:46

       Yeah.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman50:46

       In, in... Not the, at all the same person, but very similar in that he's figured out the physical space he needs in order to get into the optimal state to do the work that he needs to do in this lifetime. And it's very unusual, right? If I don't have a window, I kind of freak out. I can do it here for a while, we're in this black cube here, floating in space, of course. Um...

   14. LFLex Fridman51:04

       (laughs)

   15. AHAndrew Huberman51:05

       But, but I th- I find that amazing that these, that these people that are operating at this super high level are willing to actually deprive themselves of a lot of conditions. They're not sitting there with a sp- with the secretary coming in, offering them espresso every five minutes and things like... No. No, no. That's New York neuroscience I'm picking... The New York neuroscience mafia is kind of famous for ha- having all the, you know, tickets to the opera and this and that, and, and they, they enjoy lifestyle a lot.

   16. LFLex Fridman51:30

       (laughs) The New York neuroscience mafia.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman51:31

       Oh, there is one. There definitely is one. They know who they are. Uh, they know who they are.

   18. LFLex Fridman51:34

       Uh, for people who don't know, uh, Andrew Huberman is from the West Coast, and now he's just starting wars with the neuroscience mafia because of this.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman51:41

       Well, they do amazing science. They think...

   20. LFLex Fridman51:43

       Yes.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman51:43

       They, they love their lifestyle and that- that's wonderful, but the, the culture is very different.

   22. LFLex Fridman51:47

       Yeah.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman51:47

       Um, Karl, and I think Silicon Valley in general kind of prides itself on this kind of, um, monk-like asces- cism, right? So...

   24. LFLex Fridman51:56

       But at the individual scale, be deliberate about controlling the environment. I think about that with the conversations too. I haven't been deliberate about that either, in terms of controlling the space you're in. Visually, yes, black curtains, all those kinds of things.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman52:10

       The- there is nothing like the Lex Fridman podcast studio.

   26. LFLex Fridman52:13

       (laughing) But-

   27. AHAndrew Huberman52:14

       First o- first of all, when you, when you do them remotely, I always feel like I'm in a witness relocation program.

   28. LFLex Fridman52:19

       Yeah, exactly. (laughs)

   29. AHAndrew Huberman52:20

       You only get the coordinates at the last moment.

   30. LFLex Fridman52:22

       Yeah.
8. 53:25 – 1:00:26

   Difficult conversations

   1. LFLex Fridman53:25

      Maybe a couple of things I want to say. So o- one person I've been... I think I would like to talk to is Ghislaine Maxwell.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman53:34

      I always get afraid right before you reveal these kinds of things.

   3. LFLex Fridman53:37

      Yeah.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman53:37

      And now I know why I get afraid. Yeah, I mean, again, assuming that she did the things that people claim she did, they're despicable, right? I mean, these were underaged children, right? There's just no version of the story where she did the things she was accused of doing and is still a, quote-unquote, "good person." There's just... In my mind, right? Um, and yet I think there is tremendous interest in understanding, like, what led her to do all that.

   5. LFLex Fridman54:06

      So let me-

   6. AHAndrew Huberman54:06

      At least for some people.

   7. LFLex Fridman54:07

      Let me say a couple of things. So o- one is, at a high level, let me say that she believes, or her current story is, is that she's the victim.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman54:18

      Of who?

   9. LFLex Fridman54:20

      Jeffrey Epstein.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman54:21

       Oh my.

   11. LFLex Fridman54:23

       I think I'll just leave that there as, as is. So this is, these are ideas that you're facing. The nature of truth and the nature of the human mind is what it is, and this is... Imagine, folks, if you went into a room with the person that says that, what do you do next? Let me also say that I never, or rarely... Let me say... not say never. I rarely mention names that I'm interested in talking to without having made significant progress in already securing that interview, so people sometime ask me about, uh, Volodymyr Zelenskyy and Vladimir Putin. I do not bring them up lightly in terms of there's... in terms of there being a path to an actual conversation. That said, something I regret, but I'm not sure I...... know how, what to do with it. But in the case of all the people I just mentioned, I haven't been preparing for those conversations. I only start really preparing seriously when it's confirmed, because it's such a heavy burden. And one of the things I regret in having mentioned a conversation with, uh, Vladimir Putin before the war in Ukraine broke out in the, in the past few years, is that I would mention it very loosely, very casually, and without having really deeply put myself into a place that I'm ready to talk to him. And that, that, that's a tricky thing because then the internet, um, the, the audience in general, and just me when I listen back to my dumb self, think, "Well, why are you speaking so lightly about these topics?"

   12. AHAndrew Huberman56:17

       Well, I know you've had a longstanding interest in talking to him. I think now, you know, uh, while the... I don't understand, um, how I would sit down and have a conversation with somebody like that, but that's not in, in the range of my skill-sets, right? I-

   13. LFLex Fridman56:36

       Or like, uh, maybe not in the range of things that you're drawn to somehow.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman56:42

       Not so much. I mean, I would watch that episode (laughs) with, with great interest. Um, well, you did an episode recently with this guy who was a, uh, former cyber criminal turned state side, right?

   15. LFLex Fridman56:54

       Mm-hmm.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman56:54

       I think he works for the government now. And there was a segment in there, um, remind me his name?

   17. LFLex Fridman56:58

       Brett Johnson.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman56:58

       Brett Johnson. There was a segment in there where he talked about stealing a lifetime's worth of collected coins from some elderly woman, and this was everything she had. And then he openly admitted that he felt no remorse, which is, the way he described it, is purely sociopathic. And then of course, we learned that he grew up in a family where criminal behavior was very common. It was kind of embedded into his, um, notions of what typical behaviors were. And I found myself somewhat conflicted, but also hung up, you know, hung up on this idea that, you know, I mean, he was... you know, he had behaved as a sociopath, um, or in a sociopathic way. And it created a, an internal conflict because he's a quite charming guest and his stories are terrific.

   19. LFLex Fridman57:45

       Mm-hmm.

   20. AHAndrew Huberman57:46

       Especially, I really enjoyed his discussions about how he would go out and, um, do all these things out of a desire to please his, his girlfriend.

   21. LFLex Fridman57:55

       Mm-hmm.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman57:56

       You know? So he was in service to other people, despite being a sociopath. You could say he was in service to them as a way to extract. Gets very complicated.

   23. LFLex Fridman58:03

       Mm-hmm.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman58:03

       I think this is the reason I went into science is that it, at some level, it's more about facts than it is opinions and judgments. And I don't know that I have the ability to suspend judgment over the... uh, away from the kind of top level contours of... My initial reaction to like, if it's true, like the Ghislaine Maxwells and the Liz Holmes and the other sociopaths is one of just kind of revulsion and repulsion.

   25. LFLex Fridman58:27

       Mm-hmm.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman58:28

       But that could also reflect the fact that I'm not as, you know, neurologically sophisticated as somebody that can spin all the plates of, of empathy, forgiv- forgiveness, but also, um, holding people accountable at the same time. That's, that's work. That takes... If you think about it, that's three, four brain circuits having to work in parallel. That's the difference between chess or a game of Go and a game of checkers. I guess I'm playing checkers-

   27. LFLex Fridman58:54

       (laughs) .

   28. AHAndrew Huberman58:54

       ... and you're playing chess.

   29. LFLex Fridman58:56

       No, so one is actually holding in your mind, and two is the, the raw skill of conversation. You're, you're very, just having listened to your interviews, you're very good at conversation, but the skill of conversation is really tricky. I'm not being self-deprecating. I'm being just objective. I'm not good at conversation. I'm working very hard at getting better at it. I'm, I'm speaking not about just podcasting, I'm speaking just normal life. I'm, I'm, I have anxiety so- f- f- from social interaction. I-

   30. AHAndrew Huberman59:30

       Do you really?
9. 1:00:26 – 1:14:12

   Big guests

   1. LFLex Fridman1:00:26

      having mentioned Vladimir Putin, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, uh, Ghislaine Maxwell, there is a natural question, how does Lex have access to these people? Who does he work for? Like, how does he... like-

   2. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:48

      Or who works for him?

   3. LFLex Fridman1:00:49

      Or who works for him.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:50

      Right.

   5. LFLex Fridman1:00:51

      What does he have on others? This, I'm actually, I ask myse- I, when I look in the mirror, uh, just somebody who kind of enjoys conspiracy theories, and, and I want to ask the same question, like... Well, I usually ask in the following way, like, how the fuck am I so lucky? Like, who... am I being... am I a robot being controlled by somebody else or like what... how is this, how is this my life right now? What is happening? It really does feel like a simulation. So let me just speak the, to, to several things. First of all-I have no boss. I no- I know of, nor am I controlled by any intelligence agencies of any nation. (laughs)

   6. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:32

      We're gonna get you a dog, Lex.

   7. LFLex Fridman1:01:33

      (laughs)

   8. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:34

      (laughs)

   9. LFLex Fridman1:01:34

      So that I could talk to?

   10. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:36

       (laughs)

   11. LFLex Fridman1:01:36

       (laughs) Uh, I'm scared of getting a dog 'cause I would fall in love so deeply, I think, that, uh ...

   12. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:41

       Next time, I'm bringing a puppy.

   13. LFLex Fridman1:01:43

       (laughs)

   14. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:43

       I'm just gonna bring a puppy-

   15. LFLex Fridman1:01:44

       This is gonna ... (laughs)

   16. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:45

       ... and I'm gonna leave it here.

   17. LFLex Fridman1:01:46

       Man, and then, uh, you'll never see me again. I mean, I, I love dogs so much, but the, uh, I was also surprised and maybe, um ... I, I have never talked to an intelligence agency, which is very interesting to me. Like, I, I, I haven't-

   18. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:03

       Not that you're aware of. 'Cause they're very good at communicating with people-

   19. LFLex Fridman1:02:07

       Right.

   20. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:08

       ... with love.

   21. LFLex Fridman1:02:08

       But I've been very suspicious on this exact point. That's the, the downside of kind of, uh, being an introvert, having anxiety about social interaction, but then having so much love thrown your way because we connect over podcasts. Podcasts have a powerful way of connecting people. So people come with you with love-

   22. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:26

       Yeah.

   23. LFLex Fridman1:02:27

       ... that I really love, that I appreciate. But I wonder, like, exactly this question, like, uh, like, "Why is this person with a Russian accent talking to me and show- showing me so much love?" That-

   24. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:39

       Well, because, uh, sorry to interrupt you again, but, um, it's what we do. Um, and it's a sign of interest, uh, by the way, to ... Sometimes.

   25. LFLex Fridman1:02:47

       Interrupting?

   26. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:47

       Sometimes. Yeah, I have a colleague at Stanford and she said, you know, interruption, 75% of the s- time is a sign of, of real interest in what the person is saying, if nothing else. Uh, well, you're very lovable.

   27. LFLex Fridman1:03:00

       Well, that, that, but, but-

   28. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:01

       You know? I mean, I learned about, uh, Hedgehog in the Fog from you.

   29. LFLex Fridman1:03:04

       Yeah, yeah.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:04

       You know? When I learned, you know ... You're very lovable. People love you because you're lovable.
10. 1:14:12 – 1:21:13

    Academia

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:12

       There are some academics that are bold and brave. It's, it's not a phenotype. Uh, being bold and brave in the physical world is not a common phenotype of academics. I mean, the great neurologists, one of my tr- I don't have many heroes, but Oliver Sacks is a true hero. I mean, um, people think of him as a writer, but he was foremost a neurologist, and he took tremendous pushback from the neurology community for doing his books and his articles. Uh, he has a great biography called On The Move. There's a wonderful documentary that just came out about him. He died in 2015. I'm actually, um, a, a kind of a collector of his things. Um, but he had tremendous ... But he was accused of horrible things until the movie Awakenings came out with De Niro and Robin Williams.

    2. LFLex Fridman1:14:58

       Amazing movie, by the way. People don't-

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:59

       Yeah.

    4. LFLex Fridman1:15:00

       They seem to s- not say great things about the movie. I love that movie.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:03

       It was ama- amazing. And it was only once he became famous from that movie that his ac-, more academic work started to receive any kind of attention, and he was invited back to Columbia and NYU. Yeah, the New York neuroscience mafia is a real thing. Um, and yes-

    6. LFLex Fridman1:15:19

       I love them.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:19

       ... you know who you are, and some of them are actually coming on the podcast.

    8. LFLex Fridman1:15:22

       (laughs)

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:22

       Um, th- they, they, they are-

    10. LFLex Fridman1:15:24

        You and I, uh, I think we talked offline about this. We should start a mafia to f- to bat- to, to fight off whatever's going on in the East Coast. Although I'm still at MIT, so I don't know how that works, but-

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:34

        Well, well-

    12. LFLex Fridman1:15:34

        ... Boston is different than New York.

Episode duration: 3:25:21