Anthony Kaldellis: Roman Empire, Byzantine Empire, Rise & Fall of Empires | Lex Fridman Podcast #498

1. 0:00 – 1:24

   Episode highlight

   1. AKAnthony Kaldellis0:00

      We're talking about a society that was right in the middle of one of the main corridors of empire building and new religions in the world. This is the most dangerous neighborhood that you can possibly live in.

   2. LFLex Fridman0:13

      26 emperors were murdered in a period of 50 years.

   3. AKAnthony Kaldellis0:18

      Yes. It's tremendous instability.

   4. LFLex Fridman0:21

      Almost all were, of these emperors were generals, and almost all were murdered by their men. So civil war was the norm, hyperinflation, economic crash, plus there's a plague.

   5. AKAnthony Kaldellis0:32

      Yes.

   6. LFLex Fridman0:33

      There's just a lot of chaos.

   7. AKAnthony Kaldellis0:34

      Here's why I don't think the Eastern Roman Empire is a military dictatorship, even though, again, the emperors control the armies, um, and the armies themselves will often have a say in, um, who becomes emperor, like through the civil wars that we mentioned. The reason why I don't think it's a military dictatorship is because they almost never, very, very, very rarely use the army as an instrument of social control. Sometimes these eunuchs were extremely competent, um, like Narses, Justinian's general, who defeated the Goths in Italy in this massive battle. Like, this guy was a total hard-ass. And he was this little old man. He was v- he was very old, and he was tiny, and he was a eunuch, and the Goths laughed at him, but [laughs] he had the last laugh.

2. 1:24 – 1:51

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman1:24

      The following is a conversation with Anthony Kaldellis, a historian of the Eastern Roman Empire, also known as the Byzantine Empire. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, dear friends, here's Anthony Kaldellis.

3. 1:51 – 5:49

   The Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire

   1. LFLex Fridman1:52

      You've described that the Byzantine Empire is the Roman Empire, that calling it the Byzantine Empire is an invention of historians writing long after the empire has collapsed, that the people of that time considered themselves Romans, and that the so-called Byzantine Empire never actually existed, that it was, in every legal and cultural sense, the Roman Empire continuing unbroken. So let's get, uh, our terms right in the grand historical context. What is the Byzantine Empire, and why should we just call it the Roman Empire?

   2. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:28

      So Lex, the burden of proof is on those who would assert that what we've been calling the Byzantine Empire is something other than-

   3. LFLex Fridman2:35

      Yeah

   4. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:35

      ... the Roman Empire, because all of our sources are very clear about this. And we've known about this. We've always known about it. It's almost a form of cognitive dissonance, right? It's like when you know something is the case, but you carry on as if it's not.

   5. LFLex Fridman2:46

      Mm-hmm.

   6. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:47

      So the Eastern Roman Empire, this is the direct continuation of the ancient Roman Empire in the East, right? Everybody knows the Western Empire fell in the fifth century. And for many conceptions of Western history, that was sufficient. Like, that's when we just called it. The Roman Empire fell in the fifth century. And we kinda, yeah, we kinda know that the eastern half survived, but we d- don't wanna include that in our cultural genealogy, and so we kinda pretend that it, eh, became something else. But in fact, it called itself the Roman Empire. Its subjects were Roman citizens. They called themselves Romans all the way down through to the end and beyond. So there are a number of reasons why Western Europeans wanted to think that the Eastern Empire is something different, and those reasons have created these models where we, they were, they called it Empire of the Greeks for 1,000 years, then they switched to Byzantine Empire for very political reasons. Now that's collapsing.

   7. LFLex Fridman3:39

      Mm-hmm.

   8. AKAnthony Kaldellis3:40

      So we're now moving into a phase where we have the long Roman Empire. We, we recognize that the history of the Roman state, the Roman polity, is something that lasts an extraordinarily long time.

   9. LFLex Fridman3:50

      Mm-hmm.

   10. AKAnthony Kaldellis3:51

       Very u- unique almost in history, from antiquity, like the archaic period, down to the 15th century.

   11. LFLex Fridman3:59

       I think it would be really nice to actually look just for a brief moment at the grand scale of the, uh, the full Roman state as it lasted for, uh, over 2,200 years.

   12. AKAnthony Kaldellis4:11

       Yeah.

   13. LFLex Fridman4:12

       So its founding, 753 BC, to let's say the fall of Constantinople in 1453 AD. So can we try to give a big picture overview of everything that happened?

   14. AKAnthony Kaldellis4:25

       Okay, so first we have a period of the kings. This is almost legendary, from like the eighth century BC down to around 510 BC.

   15. LFLex Fridman4:33

       Mm-hmm.

   16. AKAnthony Kaldellis4:34

       So this is when Rome is ruled by a series of local kings. Uh, the kings are expelled, and the republic, or what we call the republic, um, is instituted, and this is a regime that's governed by mostly a- an aristocracy, but with cooperation from the people of Rome. In various ways, the, the arrangements change over the centuries. So that lasts for about five centuries. And then we have the end of the republic in the era of Julius Caesar and Augustus Caesar, when the civil wars lead to the creation of an imperial monarchy-

   17. LFLex Fridman5:05

       Mm-hmm

   18. AKAnthony Kaldellis5:05

       ... right, under Augustus. Uh, so that's, we date that roughly either, yeah, 27 BC, something like that. And thereafter, it is an imperial monarchy for the next millennium and a half. Uh, very broadly, we can divide that into two phases, one where the center of power is in Rome, and one where it's in Constantinople.

   19. LFLex Fridman5:26

       Mm-hmm.

   20. AKAnthony Kaldellis5:26

       And, you know, we can debate the dates of when that transition takes place. These big transitions usually take place over long periods of time. They're not, like, very sudden. Uh, so that's the big picture.

   21. LFLex Fridman5:38

       Mm-hmm.

   22. AKAnthony Kaldellis5:38

       Kings, republic, imperial monarchy.

   23. LFLex Fridman5:42

       The Roman Kingdom, the Roman Republic, the Roman Empire.

   24. AKAnthony Kaldellis5:46

       Yes.

   25. LFLex Fridman5:46

       And then the West and East Roman Empire.

4. 5:49 – 26:12

   2,200 Years of Roman History

   1. AKAnthony Kaldellis5:49

      Yes.

   2. LFLex Fridman5:50

      Uh, and then maybe what are the different terms that we could be using for the Byzantine Empire, including Byzantium? Is it also fair to say the Late Roman Empire?

   3. AKAnthony Kaldellis6:03

      So Late Roman Empire we use for both East and West, mm, starting around the reign of Diocletian maybe, even a bit earlier, so during the third century AD. And that goes down to maybe the early 7th century. So that period we call Late Roman Empire. And if you asked me to define its principal characteristics, it would probably be the tax system and the administration, the bureaucracy of the Later Roman Empire is that that comes from mostly Diocletian and Constantine's reforms.

   4. LFLex Fridman6:32

      And Diocletian was in the 3rd century.

   5. AKAnthony Kaldellis6:35

      Yes, 284 to 305 AD.

   6. LFLex Fridman6:37

      Mm-hmm.

   7. AKAnthony Kaldellis6:37

      Yes, a very important reformer.

   8. LFLex Fridman6:39

      And we'll talk about it, but let's just do this whirlwind, and hopefully there'll be automagical images somewhere over- overlaid, but-

   9. AKAnthony Kaldellis6:46

      Okay.

   10. LFLex Fridman6:46

       So [chuckles] in, uh, 753 BC, Rome, a small city state, is founded, and in 509 BC, the kings are overthrown and the Roman Republic is born. 390 BC, the Gauls sack Rome, and, uh, this, I believe, among other events throughout its history, is a formative trauma that hardens Rome's security obsession. It turns out, throughout its history, people want to attack from different directions, and so you have to defend. So there's two wars, as we're actually saying off mic, there's two kinds of, uh, military operations. One is, uh, wars of conquest and expansion, and, and one is more defensive. And we'll, we'll talk about how the military changes throughout its history, uh, to allocate more effort to one versus the other. In, uh, 264 to 146 BC, the Punic Wars and the survival against Hannibal transform Rome into a Mediterranean superpower. Then, uh, like you mentioned, Caesar in 49 to 31 BC, Caesar's crossing of the Rubicon to assassination of Caesar to the Battle of Actium, and then the Civil War dismantles the Republic and concentrates power in a single ruler, Octavian, AKA Augustus, the first Roman emperor, let's say.

   11. AKAnthony Kaldellis8:13

       Yeah.

   12. LFLex Fridman8:13

       Then, uh, 27 BC, Augustus founds the Principate, really low-key monarchy. And, uh, so officially that ends the Republic, and then that begins, uh, 27 BC to 180 AD, the Pax Romana, which is a period of relative peace and stability. And a lot of the emperors we know of, the sexy popular emperors all come from that period.

   13. AKAnthony Kaldellis8:35

       Yes.

   14. LFLex Fridman8:36

       Marcus Aurelius, who I'm a big fan of, from that period. Then that takes us to 284 AD, the guy we mentioned, Diocletian, who rebuilds the state. Uh, emperors drop the first citizen mask, this perception of the way, and we'll talk about this, the, the persona that's presented by the state. 312 AD, Constantine defeats Maxentius at the Milvian Bridge to become the sole ruler of the western half of the empire, and then founds Constantinople in 330 AD. East and West are split in 395 AD. Visigoths sack Rome in 410 AD. The West falls at 476 AD, um, as the last Western emperor is deposed. And then we sort of focus more on the East Roman Empire with, uh, 527. In the 6th century, Justinian's reign. In the 7th century, Heraclius defeats Persia and then loses against the Arabs. Uh, there's the Arab conquest, uh, continuing in the 7th century. In the 8th, uh, the Arab siege of Constantinople fails. There's, uh, the Macedonia dynasty in, uh, that you have a excellent book, uh, about. And then the Crusades, and then eventually leading to, uh, Constantinople falling in, uh, 1453 AD. Uh, as a person who understands the full journey of it with a focus on East Roman history, is there obvious glaring holes or incorrect things, uh, w- in what I just said?

   15. AKAnthony Kaldellis10:14

       No, nothing incorrect. I would say if, if you wanted to produce a sort of s- very swift timeline of its history, um, it's obviously important to focus on the moments when, uh, lots of territory w- w- was lost to foreign invaders, and these are actually three main moments. There's the Arab conquests in the 630s. This is a decade. In a decade, that war was lost. It is the Seljuk Turk conquest of Asia Minor, modern Turkey, in the 1070s, and that was very swift and partly reversed afterwards, but only partly. And then there's the Fourth Crusade, 1204, when the armies from mostly France sack, conquer Constantinople, and dismember the empire as much as they could. Um, it didn't last that long. The Romans managed to regroup and recover. Uh, but those are the three main crisis points. They are very swift, uh, but they cause incredible damage. For all the rest of its history, it is a s- a state and society that is generally, um, sort of consolidating, uh, you know, um, regrouping, and generally engaged in slow but steady economic growth, territorial, um, e- expansion, uh, a small scale, but steady.

   16. LFLex Fridman11:42

       Mm-hmm.

   17. AKAnthony Kaldellis11:43

       Uh, so we can talk about this. Um, it's-- I think it's an important thing to, to, to keep in mind about the big picture, that the defeats were swift and kind of, you know, terrible. [chuckles] Uh, but the most of its history is one of slow growth.

   18. LFLex Fridman12:00

       There's some traumatic events that have a big impact, but a lot of the developments we'll talk about Uh, it might seem or feel like there's a particular moment when those developments or changes in the way the government or the military is structured arise, but really it's a gradual process.

   19. AKAnthony Kaldellis12:18

       Exactly.

   20. LFLex Fridman12:19

       And so that's the tension we have to be constantly dancing with.

   21. AKAnthony Kaldellis12:21

       Yeah, so as historians, this is a point of method, and it's very important. Uh, there are moments when, like, individuals with a great deal of power make choices that impact everybody else and have, you know, long-term consequences downstream. Constantine's conversion to Christianity, for example, right? Not something that anybody could have or did predict. Okay. Otherwise, most of the developments that we identify by specific dates, like you mentioned 395, the division of the Eastern and the Western Empires, those are conventional dates that we use to actually capture what is in fact a much longer process. There was no split between the two halves. It was one among many, uh, allocations of jurisdiction to, like, one son and another son in the east-

   22. LFLex Fridman13:08

       Mm-hmm

   23. AKAnthony Kaldellis13:08

       ... and the west. The two halves were subsequently reunited, then they kind of divided again among different emperors. It's just a process, and so we sometimes use fixed dates for what is in fact a process. Or 476, the fall of the Western Empire. This is the last date. It's actually a very long process that took decades.

   24. LFLex Fridman13:28

       Mm-hmm.

   25. AKAnthony Kaldellis13:29

       Right? So that's just something to keep in mind, that sometimes we're talking about processes, sometimes we're talking about very discrete events with long-term consequences. Yeah.

   26. LFLex Fridman13:37

       Maybe an impossible question for a Roman state that lasted over 2,200 years, but is there a kind of through line, a thread, a soul that runs through the entire history of the Roman Empire? As you said, it's a slow transformation and evolution. But if we dare call the whole thing Roman, Rome, the Roman state-

   27. AKAnthony Kaldellis14:00

       Yes

   28. LFLex Fridman14:00

       ... is there some aspect, some characteristics that run through the whole thing?

   29. AKAnthony Kaldellis14:05

       I think so, yes. Uh, by the way, you know the, um, metaphor of the, the ship of Theseus?

   30. LFLex Fridman14:10

       Mm-hmm.
5. 26:12 – 47:27

   Power, violence, and civil war

   1. LFLex Fridman26:12

      Empire. So you argue that even though the personality of the various emperors varied, as we'll talk about, and as they're often venerated, celebrated, criticized, talked about, the late Roman Empire was projecting a persona to its citizens that was consistent throughout its history. Can you describe what you mean by this and describe the different detailed characteristics of this persona?

   2. AKAnthony Kaldellis26:37

      Yes. So this persona, it's what the governments or the emperor, the court, and the spokesman, the bureaucracy want their subjects to think, uh, this whole thing is about. Like, how is power being used, why, and for whom, right? And they do so in laws that they promulgate throughout the empire. Sometimes they have these wr- laws read in church, for example, or posted publicly. They're definitely eager to have them communicated to as many people as possible. Uh, but they're also a function of imperial rhetoric, uh, so the way you praise an emperor, the way you talk about an emperor. Uh, you find this language in, in petitions, so this is a hugely important glue for this society, is that anyone could basically petition the authorities for, uh, let's just say just about anything. That's not technically true, but there's a lot of petitioning going on. So, you know, if you think something's wrong or you've been treated unjustly, you can petition local officials, even imperial officials. You can petition the emperor, you can, right? And the expectation is that that petition will be read, addressed, and answered. Now, it might not be answered in the way that you want, but it will be answered. And th- those responses contain this language also, right? So these are the different media through which the emperors are broadcasting this persona, and that persona is what? Basically, that the authorities are responsive to the needs of their subjects, that they are often accountable. In other words, they understand that they are exercising public power and that their mandate is to exercise it solely for the benefit of their subjects. They keep saying this. Um, so renouncing any kind of private interest. In other words, "We're not doing this for our benefit," say the, the, the, the authorities. "We're doing this for your benefit."

   3. LFLex Fridman28:32

      Mm-hmm.

   4. AKAnthony Kaldellis28:33

      Also that they're proactive. So the emperors are constantly saying that w- we're planning ahead. We, we're trying to foresee what problems you might have, and we are solving them at, before you experience them.

   5. LFLex Fridman28:46

      Mm-hmm.

   6. AKAnthony Kaldellis28:47

      And that they are also working very hard. So hardworking. In fact, the, one of the cliches that they keep using is sleepless. The emperors keep saying that, "I'm losing sleep over this. I'm not sleeping at night because I'm just worrying so much about your problems and how to solve them." Justinian, for example, was publicly known as the sleepless emperor, and not because he was a demon whose head floated around in the palace on its own, which some people [chuckles] ...

   7. LFLex Fridman29:12

      That, that's a thing?

   8. AKAnthony Kaldellis29:12

      It was a thing, yes.

   9. LFLex Fridman29:14

      Okay. [chuckles]

   10. AKAnthony Kaldellis29:14

       That's a whole thing.

   11. LFLex Fridman29:15

       But sleepless in terms of work so hard-

   12. AKAnthony Kaldellis29:17

       Yes

   13. LFLex Fridman29:17

       ... there's-

   14. AKAnthony Kaldellis29:17

       Yeah

   15. LFLex Fridman29:17

       ... no time to sleep.

   16. AKAnthony Kaldellis29:19

       He was a workaholic. That, that is conceded by even his enemies.

   17. LFLex Fridman29:23

       Mm-hmm.

   18. AKAnthony Kaldellis29:24

       Um, all night he was up just, just hauling officials in at any old hour to talk about whatever, you know, wars and architecture and laws and the religion and theology and whatever. So the emperors are projecting this image, right? So that's what I call the persona.

   19. LFLex Fridman29:37

       Mm-hmm.

   20. AKAnthony Kaldellis29:38

       Tireless effort to work on behalf of subjects, to do so responsibly, um, to be responsive and accountable. In other words, if some of my officials breaks the law or oppresses you, I'm giving you instruments, like legal instruments, by which to hold them to account.

   21. LFLex Fridman29:59

       Mm-hmm.

   22. AKAnthony Kaldellis29:59

       So that's the persona. It's very consistent, um, and I think it's part of the mechanism of tying the society together. In other words, if subjects think that their emperors are like this, right, they're more likely to, um, agree to the consensus of essentially paying taxes.

   23. LFLex Fridman30:17

       And, uh, you draw this distinction between rhetoric and action. What the authorities say and what they actually do. So when you say persona in the modern times, some of that could be reframed as propaganda-

   24. AKAnthony Kaldellis30:30

       Yeah

   25. LFLex Fridman30:30

       ... for example.

   26. AKAnthony Kaldellis30:31

       Yeah.

   27. LFLex Fridman30:32

       Uh, and propaganda implies that the rhetoric, that there's a big gap between the rhetoric and the action. And one of the things you said you took away from reading Machiavelli is that we should judge people not by what they say, but by what they do. So how much of the Roman Empire's government, of what they espoused, was merely rhetoric, and how much was true in, in how they acted?

   28. AKAnthony Kaldellis30:56

       Yes. This is a key lesson I took from reading Machiavelli, and I found this a very insightful way of thinking about politics, and I would recommend that anybody kind of practice this way of looking at the world, right? Um, people and states and, you know, powerful people can say anything they want to. At the end of the day, uh, what matters is what they actually do. Um, and this doesn't mean that what they say is irrelevant, even if it's discordant with what they do. But nevertheless, um, in the case of the East Roman state, m- so my research suggests that the emperors and the authorities were generally sincere in what they said. In other words, I have found that they generally did what they said they were going to do overall. Uh, not perfectly, obviously. And of course, these are human beings we're talking about. The, right, the human societies, there was a lot of, you know, corruption and y- you name it. Abuse-

   29. LFLex Fridman31:56

       Mm-hmm

   30. AKAnthony Kaldellis31:56

       ... of course. Of course there is. But overall, I think that there was a sufficient level of understanding that the emperors are in fact doing this, and they were actually incentivized to do this. We can talk about how. [chuckles]
6. 47:27 – 1:00:23

   Edict of Caracalla

   1. LFLex Fridman47:27

      So if we can, before we go to Emperor Constantine, uh, the First and the founding of, uh, Constantinople, can we look at some maybe seminal events that led up to some of the topics we'll be talking about? So one of them-

   2. AKAnthony Kaldellis47:42

      Sure

   3. LFLex Fridman47:42

      ... uh, maybe tell me if this is not as interesting as I think it is, but, uh, the Edict of Caracalla, uh, in 212 AD. So, um, this is where, uh, you described that starting with Augustus in the early imperial period, government saw itself as a protector of the Ro- Roman citizens, which is a minority of the people living in the, in the Roman Empire. Uh, it doesn't consider the, the provincials. And then you described that the Edict of Caracalla, that extended full Roman citizenships to basically all, uh, free inhabitants of the Roman Empire. So, uh, what is it? Why was it done? Why is it important? Uh, and how did it change the Roman Empire?

   4. AKAnthony Kaldellis48:30

      Right. I agree with you that this is in fact a very important, um, it's a, it's a real turning point in a sense. But it also is part of a process. So for various reasons, the Roman polity, um, tended to bestow its metropolitan citizenship, that is Roman citizenship, uh, on its allies, and eventually in time on many people that it had conquered. And it had various mechanisms for doing so. It could bestow block grants. Sometimes it allowed its generals to bestow citizenship on people they thought would, you know, would be, um, necessary players for controlling local societies. Sometimes they even allowed foreign cities to, like non-Roman cities to decide, uh, who would get Roman citizenship by basically electing them to certain kinds of offices. Like, they, they outsourced a lot of this. And so you have over time the steady growth of a Roman community of citizens who are not all in Rome, and who are not all of Roman origin, whatever that means. But they, they were not descended from people who were from Rome. And this proceeds, um, you know, it expands, it expands, it expands. By Caracalla's time, so early third century AD, we can estimate that maybe at, at most a third of the free citizens of the empire are Roman citizens. Everyone else has local citizenship, like you're citi- Alexandrian or Athenian or d- whatever. And with, you're subject to those laws. This Emperor Caracalla, now that's his nickname. His reigning name is Marcus Aurelius Antoninus. So just like Marcus Aurelius, it's s- same name two generations later.

   5. LFLex Fridman50:15

      Some badass names for emperors, by the way. I don't know if it's the chicken or the egg, but just-

   6. AKAnthony Kaldellis50:20

      Yeah

   7. LFLex Fridman50:20

      ... some epic names.

   8. AKAnthony Kaldellis50:22

      They've been remembered that way, and so we read that back into-

   9. LFLex Fridman50:25

      Yes, that's true

   10. AKAnthony Kaldellis50:25

       ... the name and-

   11. LFLex Fridman50:25

       That's true

   12. AKAnthony Kaldellis50:25

       ... absolutely, yes.

   13. LFLex Fridman50:26

       But anyway, Caracalla. Yeah.

   14. AKAnthony Kaldellis50:28

       Yeah, so he issues this edict in, in 212 called the Constitutio Antoniniana, named after him. Uh, some people at the time called it the Divine Decree, which basically extended citizenship to everybody. Now, we don't know exactly why he did so. We can guess the reasons that he said he did so, and this was to, for religious reasons. In other words, he wanted people to go to the temples and pray, uh, a- and give thanks to the gods for him, for his survival of a c- out of a coup.

   15. LFLex Fridman51:01

       Mm-hmm.

   16. AKAnthony Kaldellis51:01

       Uh, which is whatever. Um, and it, it, it's possible that he, it, this was a, there was some kind of religious motivation here, and he wanted everybody to do so as Roman citizens to honor the Roman gods and something like that. Other historians at the time said he did it for tax reasons. Um, we don't know exactly. Um, there might even have been a kind of ideology of a unified community across the empire playing in his, if not in his mind, in that of the jurists, that is the legal advisors that he had. So that's possible. Um, but l- less interesting than his motivations, um, uh, more interesting is, are, um, are, the, the consequences of this-

   17. LFLex Fridman51:44

       Mm-hmm

   18. AKAnthony Kaldellis51:44

       ... and what it tells us about the Roman community. So imagine a situation where, like no modern empire has ever done this really, right? When what's significant about the Roman case is that not only did they extend citizenship to everybody, but they meant it. This is something that had teeth. In other words, it meant that the rights and opportunities that were available to Roman citizens, say, in the Roman Senate at Rome-

   19. LFLex Fridman52:10

       Mm-hmm

   20. AKAnthony Kaldellis52:10

       ... are now available to everybody. And within a generation, you have a situation where, like all of the emperors are provincials, right? All the most powerful people in the empire are from the provinces.

   21. LFLex Fridman52:25

       This is, like, mind-breaking, mind-blowing.

   22. AKAnthony Kaldellis52:27

       Yeah.

   23. LFLex Fridman52:27

       This is incredible.

   24. AKAnthony Kaldellis52:28

       Yeah.

   25. LFLex Fridman52:29

       The fact that the Roman Empire was able to do this, and it stuck.

   26. AKAnthony Kaldellis52:33

       They did it, and they meant it.

   27. LFLex Fridman52:34

       And they meant it.

   28. AKAnthony Kaldellis52:35

       Yes.

   29. LFLex Fridman52:35

       They implemented it.

   30. AKAnthony Kaldellis52:36

       Yeah.
7. 1:00:23 – 1:14:52

   Crisis of the Third Century

   1. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:00:23

      Yes.

   2. LFLex Fridman1:00:23

      Fair. Okay. So, but how, uh- Uh, may-maybe there's more we could say about the crisis, and then of course, the, the crisis is in part resolved by Diocletian, uh, as, as he does a hard reset on the structure and the Roman system of government. So maybe you could speak a little bit more to the crisis that's important for us to understand and how Diocletian solves the crisis in 284 AD.

   3. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:00:48

      Right. So again, these are processes rather than specific events.

   4. LFLex Fridman1:00:52

      Sure.

   5. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:00:53

      So for example, uh, you mentioned that the empire kind of breaks into pieces.

   6. LFLex Fridman1:00:57

      Yes.

   7. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:00:57

      And we have, um, what's called sometime the Empire of the Gauls. Gaul or modern France and sort of Britain for a while are, for a decade and a half or so, are kind of like this little separatist-

   8. LFLex Fridman1:01:09

      Mm-hmm

   9. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:01:10

      ... empire. So what's interesting about that is that this was not an attempt to break away from the empire. In other words, it's not some discontent provincials who are just tired of Roman rule and wanna break away and do their own thing. No. This is actually just a, it's an attempt by, um, provincial generals to take the throne, and does it to rule the entire empire. It doesn't work. They get only as far as the provinces that they take.

   10. LFLex Fridman1:01:38

       Mm-hmm.

   11. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:01:38

       And the only way that they know to set up a state is to make it a Roman state.

   12. LFLex Fridman1:01:42

       Mm-hmm.

   13. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:01:43

       Right? Like, that's the total of their political imaginary is like, "Well, we're just gonna do a Roman thing here. Um, and maybe we'll get, you know, we'll c- we'll, we'll reunite the empire ourselves," or as happened, Aurelian, that is someone from the other side, will reunite the empire. But it's always a Roman model. Like, there's, it's almost like there's no alternatives by this point. Um, so that's interesting. Um, what Diocletian does essentially is, uh, the, the way I, I ca- I, I, I characterize it sometimes is that he turns the problem into its own solution. In other words, the problem is too many emperors or wanna be emperors. Because there's just more going on. Like, one emperor can't deal with all these problems along the frontiers, with all the political problems. So what he does is he deputizes some of his colleagues, people he was on very good terms with from the army. These are all Illyrians. They're from... By the way, for a few centuries, the emperors are all from this region of the former Yugoslavia that's the size of Scotland. Like, that's where they all come from.

   14. LFLex Fridman1:02:44

       What explains that?

   15. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:02:46

       Uh, the army.

   16. LFLex Fridman1:02:47

       Ah.

   17. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:02:47

       These are military men. Uh, sometimes hard-drinking military men.

   18. LFLex Fridman1:02:50

       Yeah.

   19. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:02:51

       Very good at their job, uh, like Aurelian you mentioned, right? So there's a series of Illyrian emperors, um, who, who restore stability. Um, and the reason why there's so many Illyrian emperors is 'cause they work their way up through the ranks of the army. Um, and, you know, the regions of Yugoslavia in, at that time are sufficiently, uh, you know, economically underdeveloped that, um, there's a strong incentive for, for young men to go join the army 'cause, you know, it, it's a, it's a living.

   20. LFLex Fridman1:03:21

       Mm-hmm.

   21. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:03:21

       Um, and so Illyrians become, like, kind of the backbone of the Roman army, and they're described as these, you know, tough Roman conservative types. I mean, these are, you know, these are, these are tough military guys. I say that to draw a contrast between, say, Hadrian, whom I mentioned earlier-

   22. LFLex Fridman1:03:38

       Mm-hmm

   23. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:03:39

       ... you know, who was a much more sophisticated, artsy, poetic, cosmopolitan emperor.

   24. LFLex Fridman1:03:44

       Sure.

   25. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:03:44

       Also a hardass. You did not wanna mess with Hadrian. Um, but, uh, these guys from the third century are military men through and through. Like, their whole careers are, are in the army.

   26. LFLex Fridman1:03:54

       Yeah.

   27. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:03:54

       And they have, like, the military stubble.

   28. LFLex Fridman1:03:57

       Yeah.

   29. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:03:57

       They've got these thick necks.

   30. LFLex Fridman1:03:59

       Yeah.
8. 1:14:52 – 1:26:53

   Constantine and the new Roman Empire

   1. LFLex Fridman1:14:52

      All right, we're back, and let's talk about Constantine and, uh, Constantinople. Let's go to the rise of the East Roman Empire. Who was Constantine? Tell me about, uh, his rise to power and the founding of Constantinople in, uh, 330 AD.

   2. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:15:08

      Sure. So Constantine was the son of one of Diocletian's colleagues, so he comes from within the system. And, uh, the system was actually designed to be non-hereditary. In other words, the senior emperors would retire, the junior ones would move up to the senior position, and then they would recruit two new ones.

   3. LFLex Fridman1:15:26

      Mm-hmm.

   4. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:15:27

      And they tried to skip the dynastics element. So, so it would be n- kind of, let's just say, kinda meritocratic, not whose son, you know, you were. Constantine was a son. He was passed over, but the armies liked him. He was actually quite competent.

   5. LFLex Fridman1:15:42

      Mm-hmm.

   6. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:15:43

      And so there's a series of civil wars among all of these, uh, successors of Diocletian, and Constantine emerges as the winner. There are periods when there are quite a few of them. There are, like, six at a, at a time, but they gra- [laughs] they gradually winnow down to one. Um, so yeah, so as long as you have the quarterfinals, semifinals, [laughs] and then those, the final war, and Constantine emerges in 324 as the sole ruler of the entire Roman Empire. So that's who he is. He's, he's definitely an insider, um, very, very competent general at civil war. And, um, he gradually moves eastward. So as he's conquering his rivals, who are often at times his father-in-laws or his brother-in-laws, but g- because these people are all intermarrying, they have alliances, and they fall out. It's one of those kinds of situations. He moves eastward, and by the time he defeats his last rival, this, uh, an emperor called Licinius, in 324, uh, he's in the east. And Licinius had his headquarters, uh, or one of his headquarters at this town called Byzantium. Byzantium is a city, uh, right where Constantinople was founded.

   7. LFLex Fridman1:16:52

      Mm-hmm.

   8. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:16:53

      And it is at exactly the point where Europe meets Asia, so on the Bosporus. And it's a very strategic location. It always had been, right? So whoever controls the Straits of the Bosporus, you know, we don't need to explain how important that is. Um, and Constantine decides to create a city named after himself, Constantinople, on that spot, Byzantium. So Byzantium essentially ceases to exist as a city and is replaced by Constantinople, AKA New Rome. So it's pretty clear that right from the beginning, Constantine intended this to be a kind of branch office of Rome in the East, a kind of copy and paste of Rome in the East, and it's a plan that his successors continued, right? Now, there are, um, a number of other cities in this, uh, let's say in the generation or two before this, that were also treated as sort of quasi-Romes. Basically, there was this historian in the third century who said, "Well, wherever the emperor is, that's Rome," right? 'Cause emperors are now itinerant. They're no longer staying at Rome. They're mostly on the frontier, and Constantine is one of these frontier emperors. They will sometimes visit Rome, maybe once or twice, uh, maybe once a decade, you know, something like this. Um, so Rome becomes something that can be sort of copied and pasted in other parts of the empire, and a bunch of other cities get called, you know, a New Rome, an Other Rome, an Alternative Rome, My Rome, um, and Constantinople is the last and most successful of those.

   9. LFLex Fridman1:18:28

      So maybe can you speak geographically the importance of Constantinople? It's an interesting place 'cause it, uh-

   10. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:18:34

       Yeah

   11. LFLex Fridman1:18:35

       When you're talking about a land so large as the West and the East, with enemies, with threats from all kinds of different directions, the location where the emperor sits is important.

   12. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:18:47

       Very. So look at Rome, right? So it's right in the middle of Italy, right in the middle of the Mediterranean. Very safe location in a way, but it's very far from the frontiers. And this is a period when emperors need to be with the armies.

   13. LFLex Fridman1:19:00

       Mm-hmm.

   14. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:19:01

       Right? They're not senatorial emperors who are sitting in Rome having meetings with senators. They are military emperors who are marching along the frontiers, uh, mostly with generals rather than civilian administration. So they're doing their job. Like, this is the hard work. They're slogging through the mud of winter campaigns, right?

   15. LFLex Fridman1:19:24

       Mm-hmm.

   16. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:19:24

       Uh, they're not just sitting in a palace enjoying themselves when they could. Um, but Rome just becomes inconvenient because of that. Um, and if you look at Constantinople, it is kind of halfway between the Danube frontier and the Euphrates frontier. So if you want to prioritize the East or treat it as an equal part of the Roman Empire, as these emperors all did... In fact, almost all emperors who had a choice about whether they would stay in the East or stay in the West chose the East. There's only one who chooses the West, and that's Valentinian later in the fourth century. All the others understand that the East is where it's at. And Constantinople is right between the Danube and the Euphrates. These are the two major frontiers. And so it allows emperors to move between the two. And also, look at its location, north, south, east, west, right? So north, south, it is the node between the Black Sea and the Mediterranean, right? And east, west, it's precisely where Europe meets Asia, right? And because there's a break there, so there's a Bosporus, the Sea of Marmara, the Hellespont, the Roman Empire, during the civil wars, it would tend to break there.

   17. LFLex Fridman1:20:37

       Mm-hmm.

   18. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:20:37

       And you would have one emperor on one side in Asia, and you would have another emperor on the other side. And this just kept happening. And Constantinople ultimately functions as a kind of clamp that unifies this whole area, so basically the Balkans, and, uh, uh, Asia Minor, and Syria as a kind of unit, right? And, you know, what is a new Rome? A new Rome is, among other things, a new senate, right? And Constantine and his successors recruit this new senate for n- the new Rome. So we're talking about maybe 2,500, 3,000 men, um, you know, at, at, at its peak, and these are all recruited from all of these areas. You know, some come from Rome, but others come from the Aegean region, from Asia Minor, uh, Eastern Mediterranean. So these are the wealthiest people usually, most well-connected elites from the whole Eastern Mediterranean, and they come together and form a new purpose, common purpose, in Constantinople. And the empire never breaks there again, [chuckles] right? So it, it holds together this part of the world. The breaking point now, interestingly, moves to the Adriatic, right? So when, in 395, we talked about East and West kind of splitting.

   19. LFLex Fridman1:21:57

       Mm-hmm.

   20. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:21:57

       It breaks at the Adriatic 'cause Constantinople is now holding that whole Eastern world together 'cause all of these elites, they now, they're invested in it. They're literally investing in it. They have to invest in it in order to be senators in Constantinople. Uh, so that's kind of one of the functions that it, that it performs, a strategic function. There's a political function. There's also a, a cultural one, but, um, you know, we can talk about that, too. Uh, but that's what you see there on that map, the northwest, east, south.

   21. LFLex Fridman1:22:24

       So, uh, just to l- linger on it, so you, uh, you do a podcast, Byzantium & Friends, but you're also a guest on podcasts. And I should mention you being a guest multiple times on the excellent The History of Byzantium Podcast hosted by Robin Pierson. I highly recommend people listen to it, to all of your appearances. You have a lot of really fascinating ones. But the reason I bring all that up is one of the episodes, you, uh, do the fun thing of, uh, selecting the top 10 emperors of, uh, Byzantium, and, uh, spoiler alert, everybody should go listen to the full list 'cause you justify all the different options.

   22. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:23:03

       Yeah.

   23. LFLex Fridman1:23:04

       Uh, but Constantine, uh, ends up in the number one spot.

   24. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:23:09

       Yeah.

   25. LFLex Fridman1:23:09

       And so can you just add a little bit more depth why he would be in your number one spot-

   26. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:23:15

       Yes

   27. LFLex Fridman1:23:15

       ... now that we're talking about him?

   28. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:23:17

       Yes. It's not because I sort of like him as a person, [laughs] right? I mean, as you said, he was pretty murderous.

   29. LFLex Fridman1:23:23

       Yeah.

   30. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:23:23

       Right? All those wars. So clearly ambitious, murderous, uh, uh, ruthless, basically.
9. 1:26:53 – 1:52:21

   Christianity in the Roman Empire

   1. LFLex Fridman1:26:53

      So you mentioned Christianity. That was one other big component of his rule. What was the role of Christianity in Constantine's life, uh, in the lives of the citizens of the new Roman Empire?

   2. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:27:08

      At this stage, Christianity doesn't have a role. Um, it actually took the emperors... When the emperors took it on board, that is, they made it a part of the imperial system, then it began to acquire a role within the system. Previously, it had imagined itself as having its own history, like not necessarily part of the empire or affiliated with imperial power. But after Constantine, it does acquire a role.

   3. LFLex Fridman1:27:34

      And so actually, one, one, one way to ask that question, which is fascinating, because you said that there's like, there's, there's Rome, and then there's like cultures like, uh, or traditions like Christianity, uh, or, or, or, or being Greek, that kind of thing.

   4. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:27:50

      Yeah.

   5. LFLex Fridman1:27:51

      Uh, so the, one of the ways to ask this question is, does Christianity triumph over Rome, or did Rome capture Christianity?

   6. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:27:58

      Right. Yes. That's a-

   7. LFLex Fridman1:28:00

      Which, which, which is the, which is the mechanism?

   8. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:28:04

      I would lean more toward the second. In other words, that the religion was co-opted by the imperial system. Now, there are many areas in which that's not the case and where the opposite happens, so I'm not gonna be absolute about it. But I think it's very important to recognize that because Christianity generates this narrative of triumph-

   9. LFLex Fridman1:28:22

      Mm-hmm

   10. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:28:22

       ... right, um, which modern historians perpetuate, and it's framed in very particular ways. In other words, that Christianity triumphs over the ancient religions.

   11. LFLex Fridman1:28:31

       Mm-hmm.

   12. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:28:31

       Right? So displacing Zeus and Apollo and all of that, and animal sacrifice is gone, and like, that's because Christianity triumphs. And that's a very narrow way of looking at it. In other words, you pick your enemy, and then you can defeat that enemy, right? But if you look in the other direction, there's like the Roman imperial state, and you cannot say that Christianity either triumphed over it or even tamed it or anything. It actually became part of it.

   13. LFLex Fridman1:28:56

       Mm-hmm.

   14. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:28:57

       In, in many ways that, uh, you know, determined its history for centuries and, in fact, down to today. Uh, so this is very different, for example, from the history of Islam. So Islam comes into existence, um, without a, a, a preexisting state to receive it and take it on board. It creates its own state, right? So the Muslim armies, they conquer this empire, and then they have to sort of govern it. Uh, they think according to whatever Islamic principles. The Quran doesn't say anything about running an empire.

   15. LFLex Fridman1:29:28

       Mm-hmm.

   16. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:29:28

       Um, so that creates a completely different society, right? Where like Islam is a, is really a primary kind of identity and, and like drives a lot of developments. But Christianity comes into existence within a very well-developed society and, and political system. Now, here's the thing. We don't know exactly how many Christians existed in the time of Constantine.

   17. LFLex Fridman1:29:49

       Mm-hmm.

   18. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:29:50

       Well, we speculate maybe 10% of the empire. That might be very high, right? But even if it's 10%, it's not a lot, and these are not like elites for the most part. Maybe middle, you know, what we loosely call middle class, a few elites, a few slaves, like this kind of thing. Mostly urban, and keeping in mind, most of the population is rural.

   19. LFLex Fridman1:30:14

       Mm-hmm.

   20. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:30:14

       Right? So pockets of concentrated, you know, Christian groups in cities. That's what we're talking about. Not terribly politically powerful.

   21. LFLex Fridman1:30:22

       So Constantine's conversion to Christianity and moving the empire towards Christianity is not something where it's a gigantic majority of the people-

   22. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:30:30

       Right

   23. LFLex Fridman1:30:30

       ... or it's a political convenience because it's the elites.

   24. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:30:33

       Right.

   25. LFLex Fridman1:30:33

       It's something else.

   26. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:30:34

       Right.

   27. LFLex Fridman1:30:34

       I mean, it's, I mean, a pretty revolutionary decision, I would say.

   28. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:30:38

       Exactly. Now, there used to be theories that Constantine did this for like pragmatic, cynical reasons, that he like wasn't a true Christian or anything, but there was some kind of political gain to be had here. But I have never read a convincing account of what exactly that political gain is. Um, we now know that there are fewer Christians. Um, th- they were not that influential. You can make an argument that bishops are a kind of convenient social influencers, you might say. Like, you can use those... They're not a threat to your position.

   29. LFLex Fridman1:31:07

       Mm-hmm.

   30. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:31:08

       Right? So a bishop is not gonna try to take the throne, so they're not dangerous political operatives in that way. But they do have some influence over sectors of society, and so that might be a... Okay, I see that, but I don't quite see the argument for, like, going full Christian, um, just to get the support of some bishops, who actually pretty quickly turn out to be, some of them, more trouble than they're worth.
10. 1:52:21 – 2:05:17

    Fall of the Western Roman Empire

    1. LFLex Fridman1:52:21

       it.

    2. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:52:21

       Yes.

    3. LFLex Fridman1:52:22

       But to put a bow tie on Constantinople, it went from a very low population of maybe 25,000 people to 500,000 people in just two centuries. So can you explain how that happened?

    4. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:52:37

       Well, it didn't happen through, um, just, um, demographic growth and reproduction in the city itself. That rate of growth is impossible for an ancient city. So when I say 20,000, 25,000, that's possibly what the ancient city of Byzantium had-

    5. LFLex Fridman1:52:53

       Mm-hmm

    6. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:52:53

       ... when Constantine decided to found Constantinople. And it grew to a city of a half a million in two centuries. That can only have been done in one way, and that is emigration from the provinces. So people must have been moving there, um, in, in large numbers, uh, which is a movement that we can't see very clearly in the sources, but we have to infer it and then try to explain it. So, um, a- a- also there's another factor, which is that ancient cities we now know or suspect are what, what some historians call death traps. In other words, the density of disease is such that ancient cities probably are losing something like 1 to possibly 3% of their population per year. Uh, so just in order to stay s- with a stable population, they have to import people.

    7. LFLex Fridman1:53:48

       Mm-hmm.

    8. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:53:49

       Right? Now, they're not like 17th century London. They're not that bad.

    9. LFLex Fridman1:53:53

       Those diseases and plagues seem to be prevalent.

    10. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:53:56

        Oh, yeah. Now, you know, Roman cities have some corrections for these sorts of things, like the way they distribute the water through the city. Um, a- a- anyway, they, they weren't as bad as they could have been. But there's that. So not only to keep the population steady, but to expand it so dramatically means that a lot of people are coming in from the provinces, mostly the Greek-speaking provinces. So, you know, Greece, Asia Minor, and some of the major cities in the East that are Greek-speaking. And I start to wondering, like, well, how did this happen? Like, who are these people, for one thing? And then I did some simple calculations. So I mentioned earlier that we have something like 2,500 senators.

    11. LFLex Fridman1:54:39

        Hmm.

    12. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:54:40

        Um, who are required initially to reside in Constantinople. Well, senators don't live in bachelor pads. [laughs] Senators have manners. They have household staff, right? In Rome at the time, there's a calculation that a senatorial household was something like 100 people, right? Just servants, slaves, dancing girls, cooks, barbers, whatever, right? So let's assume sort of conservatively that in Constantinople it's only 30 people, which it might be low, right? So if you do the math, you're starting to get something like, I mean, closer to 100,000 people, right? And that's just by bringing in senators.

    13. LFLex Fridman1:55:21

        Mm-hmm.

    14. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:55:22

        Right? They come with people. Uh, so I think this was the nucleus Of the population. Now then Constantine also makes provision for possibly up to, like, 200,000 people to receive the, the grain dole, the bread. Um, so that would've incentivized even more people to travel there because there are-

    15. LFLex Fridman1:55:46

        So you get free bread.

    16. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:55:47

        Yes. And you can't live on that alone, but it is, it's something.

    17. LFLex Fridman1:55:51

        Incentive.

    18. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:55:51

        Yeah.

    19. LFLex Fridman1:55:52

        Is it, uh, true that he diverted resources from Rome to Constantinople?

    20. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:55:55

        Absolutely. Oh, yeah. That grain, that's coming from Egypt. So New Rome is literally stealing food from the mouth of Old Rome.

    21. LFLex Fridman1:56:05

        Yeah.

    22. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:56:05

        Now, Old Rome doesn't starve because they, they divert other... Like, from North Africa and Sicily, you can feed Rome, right?

    23. LFLex Fridman1:56:11

        But it sends a strong signal to the people living in Old Rome that long term we should probably move.

    24. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:56:18

        Some people do move. So we know of some senators who move from Rome. Um, it sends a signal about the priorities of the state, like they're investing much more in the East.

    25. LFLex Fridman1:56:27

        Mm-hmm.

    26. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:56:27

        And that the East would be regarded as a equal, parallel Roman, you know, world. Yeah.

    27. LFLex Fridman1:56:33

        As we talk about diverting resources, uh, the s- slowly the, the West declines and collapses in, uh, 476 AD. So the Visigoths sack Rome in 410 AD, and in 476 AD, the last Western emperor is deposed, marking the end of the Western Roman Empire. High-level question: what is the reason, uh, for that decline and the collapse of the Western Roman Empire? So nonstop civil wars, as we've talked about, weak emperors. Uh, there's a economic money crisis, so shrinking tax base, rising army costs. Uh, there was a loss of key provinces, especially in North Africa. Reliance on contracted barbarian troops as they immigrated more and more into-

    28. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:57:30

        Yeah

    29. LFLex Fridman1:57:30

        ... uh, the Western Roman Empire. Cascading invasions, migrations amplified by Hun pressure, and then the East-West split. The richer East survives. The West can't stabilize under-

    30. AKAnthony Kaldellis1:57:46

        Right
11. 2:05:17 – 2:30:24

    Eunuchs, Taxes, and Power

    1. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:05:17

       almost.

    2. LFLex Fridman2:05:18

       And, uh, I think it's fair to say that the reason the East... Part of the reason the East lasted as long as it did is the topic that we've mentioned, which is the structure of government. So can we just zoom out once again and explain the key ways the government functioned in the East Roman Empire and how it evolved over the lifetime of the empire?

    3. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:05:38

       Very broadly speaking, there's, uh, civilian and military, right? And you might actually add the Church. Uh, it's entirely plausible to treat the Church as a kind of, um, government, um, institution at this time. But let's just stick with military and civilian. Uh, the military is pretty straightforward, would be recognizable to any student of military history. Uh, this is how you recruit, organize, equip, pay, and lead, um, soldiers. Um, and the East Roman state tends to have a larger military, at least paper strength. Um, active is a different matter. Like, how many soldiers you take on a campaign is a different matter, but how many soldiers you maintain, like, in the provinces generally, right, is a... It tends to be on the large side for a medieval society, right? Um, so it compares favorably to, say, the Caliphate later on, which is a much more massive territorial entity. Um, so the military is that. Um, you, it, it can have anywhere between 100,000 at a minimum, at a low point, up to maybe about 250,000 at a high point, depending on the period. It's a lot of people. It's a lot of men. Factor in their families, right? These are also, like, part of the whole, you know, military economic complex, if, if you will.

    4. LFLex Fridman2:07:05

       And they're career military, so, like, this is their job.

    5. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:07:08

       Yep, yes.

    6. LFLex Fridman2:07:09

       And, and is the military for most of the history of the East Roman Empire defensive military?

    7. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:07:16

       Mostly, but not always.

    8. LFLex Fridman2:07:18

       Yeah.

    9. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:07:18

       Yeah.

    10. LFLex Fridman2:07:18

        And we'll talk about Justinian.

    11. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:07:20

        Sure.

    12. LFLex Fridman2:07:20

        Yeah.

    13. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:07:21

        Um, and so then you have the civilian administration. Civilian administration does a number of things. Principally, it is to find the funds to pay for this army, which is the single largest expense on the state budget, right? And so in order to find those funds, it has to Uh, have census of the assets, and it has to be able to tax them. And there are lots of different ways of doing that. So the civilian administration has a, a number of tax bureaus, records keeping this sort of thing, also a legal branch for resolving disputes with the imperial fisc. Okay. But the civilian administration does a number of other things too. For example, the whole legal regulation of the, of the empire, the courts, judges, c- courts of appeal, um, or also, um, issuing laws, keeping records, all, all of this. And those are the main bureaus that have to do with the subjects of the empire.

    14. LFLex Fridman2:08:20

        Mm-hmm.

    15. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:08:21

        The emperors obviously maintain bureaus that are for things like diplomacy, right, or running the palace staff, uh, because the palace is a huge institution, right, with... And then there are a number of endowments, um, that, you know, major churches, Hagia Sophia, for example, has hundreds of staff, clergy to, you know, readers to whatever, and so they need to be paid, and so you need endowments. The imperial household, it has expenses, so it needs endowments, right? So there's a lot of land that's earmarked for these kinds of expenses that requires administration. So, so this multiplies, right? I mean, go on and on and on and on.

    16. LFLex Fridman2:08:58

        And I'm sure the tax code is not a simple flat tax. It's, uh-

    17. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:09:03

        No

    18. LFLex Fridman2:09:03

        ... probably incredibly complicated. So it's just, just like in the United States, uh, it feels like majority of the United States is basically lawyers and the IRS.

    19. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:09:13

        [laughs]

    20. LFLex Fridman2:09:14

        That's maybe 90, n- 98%, I think, is lawyers.

    21. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:09:18

        Lawyers.

    22. LFLex Fridman2:09:18

        I'm not sure it's scientifically-

    23. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:09:20

        I thought they shrunk the IRS down now to a size that it can't, like, actually do anything. [laughs]

    24. LFLex Fridman2:09:24

        They shrunk it down-

    25. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:09:25

        I thought it shrunk it down

    26. LFLex Fridman2:09:26

        ... to just 90% now.

    27. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:09:27

        90, [laughs] just 90. [laughs]

    28. LFLex Fridman2:09:29

        No. I think there is something, uh, this is another, uh, conversation about human nature and about the, the nature of governments, but there's, there's something about, like, I think it's impossible to have an IRS-type organization that doesn't grow. I think maybe with good intentions, because you can't-- You have to, like-

    29. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:09:53

        Yeah

    30. LFLex Fridman2:09:53

        ... everybody always comes to you, "Well, I don't... Here's my special case. I want my tax to be lower." And then you kind of add another line. "All right, if you have-"
12. 2:30:24 – 2:47:26

    Emperor Justinian and wars of conquest

    1. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:30:24

       Right. Yeah.

    2. LFLex Fridman2:30:25

       So let's talk about Justinian. We have to.

    3. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:30:27

       Okay.

    4. LFLex Fridman2:30:27

       We have to talk about Justinian.

    5. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:30:28

       Yes.

    6. LFLex Fridman2:30:29

       One of the most impactful Roman emperors in history started as a peasant and rose in power to become emperor. He fought wars of conquest and was very consequential and impactful.

    7. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:30:42

       Yes.

    8. LFLex Fridman2:30:42

       So who was he?

    9. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:30:44

       All right. So Justinian was the emperor from 527 to 565, so quite a long reign. He was the nephew of the previous emperor, Justin I, who was an older man, ruled for just under a decade before Justinian. And both of them came from small, poor agricultural communities in the western Balkans.

    10. LFLex Fridman2:31:06

        We should say that Justin I ended up in your worst 10 emperors list.

    11. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:31:11

        Yeah, for one decision. He, he's not the worst of the worst, but he, he made a very, very bad call when it came to church policy, tore the church apart. He shouldn't have done that, in my view. But by the way, Justinian's an immensely complicated figure. I found it impossible to decide, first of all, whether to put him on the best emperors or the worst emperors list. [chuckles]

    12. LFLex Fridman2:31:30

        Yeah, you, I mean, you're being spicy, yeah.

    13. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:31:32

        Y- yeah, um, you have to be provocative about these things.

    14. LFLex Fridman2:31:34

        Yes.

    15. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:31:35

        A- and I thought omitting those two would be that, and it, and it was. So, and here we are talking about it. [chuckles]

    16. LFLex Fridman2:31:39

        Yeah, yeah, exactly, the controversy.

    17. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:31:41

        Yes.

    18. LFLex Fridman2:31:41

        Yep.

    19. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:31:42

        Um, and through the, all the systems of social mobility that we've been talking about, Justin ended up emperor, um, because of his military background. He just rose through the ranks. He was in the right place at the right time, became emperor. And then he gradually positioned his nephew, Justinian, whose background we do not know. L- literally, we do not know anything that Justinian did before the age of something like 38 when he appears on the historical record. Um, sa- same background. We know where he came from, but we don't know what he was doing, although, like, w- was he an active soldier for decades? We don't know. Um, p- probably not. Um, he comes equipped with, like, a knowledge of something like Roman law and some Christian theology. That seems to be, like, what he knew. Um, and then Justin positions him to become his successor eventually, kinda reluctantly, but he does. Justinian also marries Theodora, um, who's a woman who's a, a former sex worker, which a controversial choice. Uh, by this point, he's a senator and ha- is holding all of these top generalships, and then he becomes emperor.

    20. LFLex Fridman2:32:47

        She was also very influential, yes?

    21. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:32:50

        Very powerful, yes.

    22. LFLex Fridman2:32:51

        Very powerful.

    23. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:32:51

        Under his... Yeah, during his reign. So the interesting thing about Justinian's, um, uh, choice of, let's say, associates, and in- that includes his wife, is that he seems to have just gone for people he, like, he thought were talented-

    24. LFLex Fridman2:33:06

        Mm-hmm

    25. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:33:06

        ... or that would be good for him as a ruler, rather than their social class or prestige. And so he accumulates around him quite a motley group of odd, sometimes, um, like, these kinds of, um, disreputable people.

    26. LFLex Fridman2:33:23

        Mm-hmm.

    27. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:33:24

        Um, but they did what he wanted them to, and they were, they're, they... with lasting consequences for world history. So he has an eye for talent, and, and he doesn't hesitate to pick people that others might look down on if he thought they could get the job done.

    28. LFLex Fridman2:33:38

        Mm-hmm.

    29. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:33:39

        And these are some of the attributes that enable him to be as successful as he was. Um, so that's his background. Uh, he's a Latin speaker primarily, but he knows Greek, too.

    30. LFLex Fridman2:33:51

        So here he is and he, but he had, so like I mentioned, the wars of conquests. He also overhauled the Roman law.
13. 2:47:26 – 3:07:01

    The Arab conquests

    1. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:47:26

       deal with.

    2. LFLex Fridman2:47:27

       So speaking of which, let's talk about Heraclius. Uh, he didn't make, he didn't make your list either, which is a shocker for a lot of people. Perhaps you can describe the nuance of that, but he took over the Roman Empire on the verge of extinction. Uh, Persians at the gates, treasury empty. So, uh, maybe first tell the full saga of the Roman-Persian War that threatened the empire's existence.

    3. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:47:53

       Sure. Well, he, he wasn't entirely, you know, um, f- free of blame for the situation that he inherited.

    4. LFLex Fridman2:48:00

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:48:01

       He was, he was in part responsible for it, so, so he doesn't get a pass on that.

    6. LFLex Fridman2:48:04

       Mm-hmm.

    7. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:48:05

       So Heraclius is basically a, a rebel and a usurper. Uh, so for various reasons, um, Rome and Persia are at war starting around 602. Um, and the, the Persian shah at this time, Khosrow II, has basically decided on a policy of conquest, not just raiding. Like, "I'm gonna go in and take your people, some cattle, and some statues, and take them to, you know, Mesopotamia." He starts what... I mean, I, I think there's some evolution in his thinking and his planning about this, but pretty soon during the 600 and the aughts, he dis- he, he realizes that there's potential for actual permanent territorial gain here, and his armies start moving in. And the Roman Emperor is this guy called Phocas, who is himself a usurper, a military background, and he now faces a rebellion by Heraclius, who, whose base is in North Africa at this time, like around Carthage. And they have a civil war for three years, 608 to 610.

    8. LFLex Fridman2:49:09

       Mm-hmm.

    9. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:49:10

       That civil war that Heraclius initiates causes a diversion of Roman armies to the civil war away from the Persian front. So it's a massive gift to the Persians. Plus, a lot of the fighting takes place in Egypt, and Egypt was a province that had up until that point not really been harmed by war. Now it is, right? So Heraclius' forces, he's not in Egypt, but his backers, uh, are fighting a civil war in Egypt, so that province is now, you know, um, ravaged in part. The Persians make tremendous gains in the east. Heraclius heads straight for Constantinople during all of this, and to make a long story short, he manages to take Constantinople, execute Phocas, and become emperor, right? But now he's facing a problem that's much worse than it was when, before he started the rebellion. The reason why Heraclius is sort of lionized in some... Well, actually, there's a very long tradition of doing this, which goes back to the Middle Ages. In Western Middle Ages, Heraclius was sometimes considered, like, the first crusader.

    10. LFLex Fridman2:50:16

        Oh, interesting.

    11. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:50:17

        Yeah, yeah. So there's all this medieval literature about Heraclius as being a proto-crusader type and, and all that. Um, for reconquering, like, Jerusalem from the Persians and restoring the True Cross and, and, and all that. So he had this kind of aura, and I think his modern, um, admirers are basically just continuing... I mean, they might not know it, but they're kind of continuing this very, very long tradition of treating Heraclius as this he- heroic holy warrior. Anyway, uh, f- from my standpoint, it's a complete wash. In other words, yes, he does beat the Persians, um, and he gets, like, in my view, full credit for that, though he did it with, I think, the help of some Turkish allies from Central Asia. These were, I think, the major component of his success at the very end. But no, no. So he, he held the Persians off and ultimately defeated them, yes. And then he loses everything to the Arabs.

    12. LFLex Fridman2:51:16

        So the Arab conquests are 630s and 640s, but the Persian War is 602 to 628.

    13. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:51:23

        Yes.

    14. LFLex Fridman2:51:24

        So what can be said about this, what seems to be a pretty costly war, I guess, uh, the Persians?

    15. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:51:32

        So the war was costly initially only for the Romans. Um, the, the, the eastern provinces were conquered by Persia. That means Syria, Palestine, Egypt. So that's a loss.

    16. LFLex Fridman2:51:44

        Mm-hmm.

    17. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:51:45

        You lose all that revenue, and then they start raiding into Asia Minor.

    18. LFLex Fridman2:51:48

        Yes.

    19. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:51:49

        By the way, this is exactly what the Arabs would do, you know, just a couple decades later. They would conquer Syria, Palestine, Egypt, and they would start raiding into Asia Minor. So almost like this phase of East Roman history begins already during the Persian invasion. It's just a kind of a prelude. It was, in fact, the Arabs that would do that for the next few centuries. So Heraclius, it takes him a very long time to get organized, um, in fact, something like 15 years, and it's not entirely clear, like, what he's doing all this time. Um, but he ultimately manages to defeat the Persians by waging these really, um, spectacular, weird campaigns in the East. He decides to strike into the Persian heartland, as it were. Well, first in the Caucasus region, and then he goes into Mesopotamia. So not to try to defeat their armies that are rampaging around Asia Minor or even besieging his capital in 626. The, the Persians and the Avars is people from... This nomadic, uh, warrior group that settled in roughly modern Hungary. They're besieging Constantinople. Heraclius doesn't even go. Um, and he's just kind of preparing his armies in the East, and he strikes the Persians right where it hurts, and this now begins to degrade the Persian heartland and their infrastructure. Because remember, both of these empires are gonna be in shambles by the time the Arabs come along, and th- this is what enables the Arabs to conquer them so quickly. I mean, they've destroyed each other, um, in these wars. And eventually Heraclius calls in his Turkish allies, and they go on a, a field trip through Mesopotamia, and this causes a coup in, in Persia, and Khosrow is killed.

    20. LFLex Fridman2:53:34

        Is there something to be said, a little bit of texture to the motivations of the different empires and the different groups involved? So the East Roman Empire, the Persian Empire, and the Islamic Caliphates, were they after conquering? Were they after expansion? Were they after more like raiding for financial benefits? What was the motivation?

    21. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:53:56

        So in the past, the Persian Shahs basically were interested in raiding, and they also had an interest in manpower. Uh, so all of those Mesopotamian agricultural estates won't till themselves. So they j- they were kind of insatiable for agricultural workforces and specialized craftsmen and people like that. So they, they would go into the empire and get them.

    22. LFLex Fridman2:54:14

        [chuckles]

    23. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:54:15

        Um, but in this phase, it seems that Khosrow II is taking really to heart the idea that the Persian Empire should really extend to the Mediterranean, as it did in, like, Achaemenid times, right, in, in ancient history, the empire that Alexander conquered. So it seems that the, the Sassanians, this is this dynasty, this Iranian dynasty that's ruling, um, the Persian Empire, of course, they were aware of the Achaemenids, but sometimes they would have these claims to reviving the former greatness of the Iranian Empire.

    24. LFLex Fridman2:54:46

        Sure.

    25. AKAnthony Kaldellis2:54:46

        So, you know, bathing in the Mediterranean Sea is something that, um, many Near Eastern monarchs, you know, uh, they, they did this as a sign of, of success. Anyway, for the Romans, it was sheer survival, uh, just desperate survival, 'cause they knew that this was a war that could end the Roman state.

Episode duration: 3:51:46