Ginni Rometty: IBM CEO on Leadership, Power, and Adversity | Lex Fridman Podcast #362

Ginni Rometty 0:00 I've had to do plenty of unpopular things. I think any time you have to run a company that endures a century and has to endure another century, you will do unpopular things, you have no choice. And I often felt I had to sacrifice things for the long term. And whether that would have been, you know, really difficult things like, you know, job changes or reductions, or whether it would be things like, "Hey," you know, "we're gonna change the way we do our semiconductors-"

Lex Fridman 0:25 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 0:26 "... and a, a whole different philosophy." Y- you have no choice. I mean, and, and in times of crisis as well you gotta be, I always said, it's not a popularity contest.

Lex Fridman 0:37 The following is a conversation with Ginni Rometty, who was a longtime CEO, president, and chairman of IBM. And for many years, she was widely considered to be one of the most powerful women in the world. She's the author of a new book on power, leadership, and her life story, called Good Power, coming out on March 7th. She is an incredible leader and human being, both fearless and compassionate. It was a huge honor and pleasure for me to sit down and have this chat with her. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Ginni Rometty.

Lex Fridman 1:19 You worked at IBM for over 40 years, starting as a systems engineer, and you ran the company as chairman, president, and CEO from 2011 to 2020. IBM is one of the largest tech companies in the world, with, maybe you can correct me on this, with, with about 280,000 employees. What are the biggest challenges running the company of that size? Let's start with a sort of big overview question.

Ginni Rometty 1:45 The biggest challenges I think are not in running them, it's in changing them. And that idea to know what you should change and what you should not change. Actually, people don't always ask that question, what should endure, even if it has to be modernized, but what should endure. And then I found the hardest part was changing how work got done. It's such a big company.

Lex Fridman 2:04 What was the parts that you thought should endure? The core of the company that was beautiful and powerful and could persist through time-

Ginni Rometty 2:12 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 2:12 ... that should persist through time?

Ginni Rometty 2:13 I'd be interested, do you have a perception of what you think it would be?

Lex Fridman 2:17 Do I have a perception? Well, I'm a romantic for a history of long-running companies, so there is kind of, um, a tradition. As a AI person, to me, IBM has some epic sort of research accomplishments-

Ginni Rometty 2:32 Yes.

Lex Fridman 2:32 ... where you show off, you know,, uh, Deep Blue and Watson. Just impressive, big moonshot challenges in accomplishing those.

Ginni Rometty 2:41 Yes. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 2:41 But that's, I think, that's probably a small part of what IBM is. It's just, that's mostly, like, the, the sexy public-facing part, right?

Ginni Rometty 2:48 Yeah. Now, no, it, it, is, well, certainly the research part itself, right? Is over 3,000. So it's not that small.

Lex Fridman 2:54 (laughs)

Ginni Rometty 2:54 That's a pretty big research group.

Lex Fridman 2:55 Yes, big, yes, yes.

Ginni Rometty 2:56 But the part that should endure ends up being, you know, company that does things that are essential to the world. Meaning, um, the who, you know, think back. You said you're a romantic. It was the, uh, '30s, the Social Security system. It was putting the man on the moon. It was, you know, to this day, banks don't run, you know, railroads don't run. Uh, that is, at its core, it's doing mission critical work.

Lex Fridman 3:22 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 3:22 And so, that part, I think, is at its core, it's a business to business company. And at its core, it's about doing things that are really important to the world becoming, running, and being better.

Lex Fridman 3:33 Running the infrastructure of the world, so doing it at scale, doing it reliably.

Ginni Rometty 3:37 Yes, secure, in this world, that's like everything. In, in fact, when I started, I almost felt people were looking for what that was. And together, we sort of, in a word, was to be essential. And the reason I love that word was, I can't call myself essential. You have to determine I am, right? So it was to be essential. Even though some of what we did is exactly what you said, it's below the surface, so many people... 'Cause people say to me, "Well, what does IBM do now?" Right? And over the years, it's changed so much. And today, it's really a software and consulting company. Consulting is a third of it. And the software is all hybrid cloud and AI. That would not have been true, as you well know, back even two decades ago, right? So, um, it changes. But I think at its core, it's that be essential. You said moonshot, can't all be moonshots, 'cause moonshots don't always work. But mission critical work.

Lex Fridman 4:27 So, given the size though, uh, when you started running it, did you feel this sort of thing they, people usually associate with size, which is bureaucracy, and maybe the aspect of size that hinder progress or hinder pivoting. Did you feel that?

Ginni Rometty 4:45 You would, um, uh, y- for lots of reasons. I think when you're a big company, sometimes people think of process is the client themselves. Or the, you know-

Lex Fridman 4:55 (laughs)

Ginni Rometty 4:55 ... I always say to people, "Your process is not your customer. There is a real customer here that you exist for." And that's really easy to fall into, because they're, you know, people are a master or to this process. And that's not right. And when you're big, the other thing, and boy, there's a premium on it, is speed, right? That, um, in our industry, you gotta be fast. And go back, like, when I took over, and it was 2012, th- the, you know, we had a lot of catching up to do and a lot of things to do, and it was moving so fast. And as you well know, all those trends were happening at once, which made them go even faster. And so, pretty unprecedented actually, for that many trends to be at one time. And I used to say to people, "Go faster, go faster, go faster." And honestly, I, I've tired them out. I mean, it kinda dawned on me-

Lex Fridman 5:45 (laughs)

Ginni Rometty 5:45 ... that when you're that big-

Lex Fridman 5:46 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 5:46 ... it's a really valuable lesson. And it taught me, like, the hows perhaps more important than the what. Because if I didn't do something to change how work was done, like, change those processes or, you know, give them new tools, help them with skills, th-They couldn't. They'll just, like do the same thing faster. If someone tells you, you know, you got hiking boots and they're like, "No, go run a marathon." You're like, "I can't do it in those (laughs) boots."

Lex Fridman 6:09 Hm.

Ginni Rometty 6:09 But, so you've gotta do something. And at first I think the ways for big companies, I would

6:15 call 'em like blunt clubs. You do what everyone does. You reduce layers 'cause if you reduce layers, decisions go faster. There's just, it's math.

Lex Fridman 6:23 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 6:23 If there's less decision points, things go faster. Um, you do the blunt club thing and then after that though, it did lead me down a, you know, a long journey of they sound like buzzwords but if you really do 'em at scale, they're hard, around things like Agile. And, um, because you've really gotta change the way work gets done. And we ended up training, God, hundreds of thousands of people on that stuff-

Lex Fridman 6:47 On how to do Agile correctly.

Ginni Rometty 6:47 ... to really change it. On how to do it correctly, that's right, versus, 'cause everybody talks about it, but the idea that you would really have small multidisciplinary n- teams work from the outside in, set those sort of interim steps, you know, take the feedback, pivot, and then do it on not just products, do it on lots of things, was a, it's, uh, hard to do at scale. Um, people always say, "Oh, I got this Agile group over here of 40 people." But not when you're a couple hundred thousand people. You gotta get-

Lex Fridman 7:14 Okay.

Ginni Rometty 7:14 ... a lot of people to work that way.

Lex Fridman 7:16 So the blunt club thing you're talking about-

Ginni Rometty 7:17 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 7:17 ... what, so flatten the organization as much as possible?

Ginni Rometty 7:19 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I probably reduced the layers of management by half. And so it, that does, that has lots of benefits, right? Time to a decision, um, more autonomy to people 'cause, and then the idea of like faster clarity of, of where you're going 'cause you're not just filtered through so many different layers. And I think it's the kind of thing a lot of companies if you're big have to just keep going through. It's kind of like grass grows, you know? It just comes back and you gotta (laughs) go back down and, uh, and work on it. So it's a natural thing, um, but I hear so many people talk about it, like s- this idea of like, "Okay, well, who makes the decision?" You've often heard, "Nobody can say yes and everybody can say no." And that's actually what you're trying to get out of a system like that.

Lex Fridman 8:03 So, uh, I mean, your book and in general the, the way you lead is very much about we and us, you know, the, the power of we. But is there times when a leader has to step in and be almost autocratic, take control and make hard unpopular decisions?

Ginni Rometty 8:18 Oh, I am sure you know the answer to that and it, and it is of course (laughs) yes.

Lex Fridman 8:21 It's just f- fun to hear you say it.

Ginni Rometty 8:22 It's fun to say it? Yeah.

Lex Fridman 8:24 (laughs)

Ginni Rometty 8:24 You know, 'cause I actually, um, A, there's a leader for a time, but then there's a leader for a situation, right? And so I've had to do plenty of unpopular things. I think anytime you have to run a company that endures a, a century and has to endure another century, you will do unpopular things. You have no choice. And I often felt I had to sacrifice things for the long term. And whether that would've been, you know, really difficult things like, you know, job changes or reductions or whether it would be things like, "Hey, you know, we're gonna change the way we do our semiconductors."

Lex Fridman 8:57 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 8:57 And a, a whole different philosophy. Y- you have no choice. I mean, and, and in times of crisis as well, you gotta be, i- I always said, it's not a popularity contest. So that's, none of these jobs are popularity contests. I don't care if your company's got one person or half a million, they're not popularity contests.

Lex Fridman 9:15 But psychologically, is it difficult to- to- to sort of step in as a new CEO and (laughs) to- to, 'c- 'cause you're fighting against tradition, against all these people that act like experts of their thing and they are experts of their thing, to step in and say-

Ginni Rometty 9:29 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 9:29 ... "We have to do it differently."

Ginni Rometty 9:30 When you gotta change a company, it's really tempting to say, "Throw everything else out," back to that what must endure, right?

Lex Fridman 9:36 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 9:37 But I know when I took over to start, I knew how much had to change. The more I got into it, I could see, wow, a lot more had to change, right? 'Cause we needed a platform. We'd always done our best when we had a platform, a technology platform. You will go back in time and you'll think of the mainframe systems, you'll think of the PC, you'll think of perhaps middleware. Y- you know, you could even call services a platform. We needed a platform, the next platform here to be there. Um, skills. When I took over if I, we inventoried who had modern skills for the future, it was two out of ten people. For the future, not that they didn't have relevant skills today, but for the future, two out of ten. Yikes, that's a big problem, right? Um, the, the speed at which things were getting done that has to, so you got so much to do and you say, "Is that, um, is that a scary thing?" Yes. "Do you have to sometimes dictate?" Yes. But I did find, and it is worth it, I know every big company I know, my good friend that runs General Motors, is she's had to change, go back to what is them them, you know? And when you do that, that back to Be Essential, we kind of started with, "Hey, it's Be Essential," then the next thing I did with the team was say, "Okay, now this means new era of computing, new buyers are out there and, eh, we better have new skills. Okay, now the next thing, how do you operationalize it?" And it just takes some time, but you can engineer that and get th- get people to build

Ginni Rometty 10:59 belief.

Lex Fridman 10:59 And for the skills, that, that means, uh, that means hiring and it means training?

Ginni Rometty 11:04 Yes. Y- yeah, oh boy, that's a long... Skills is a really long topic in and of itself. I try to put my view in it. I learned a lot and I changed my view on this a lot. Um, I'll go back at my very beginning, say 40 years ago. I- I would have said at that point, okay, I was always in a hurry of, I was interviewing to hire people. I don't know how you hire people. 40 years ago I'd be like, "Okay, I gotta fit in these interviews. I gotta hire someone to get this done."

Lex Fridman 11:29 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 11:30 Okay. Then time would go on, I'm like, "Well, that's not very good." In fact, someone once said to me, "Hey, hire the best people to work for you and your job gets a lot easier."

Lex Fridman 11:36 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 11:37 "Okay, I should spend more time on this topic," I spent more time on it. Then it was like, "Okay, hire experts." Okay?

Lex Fridman 11:43 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 11:43 Okay, hired a lot of experts over my life and then I was really like an epiphany and it really happened over my tenure running the company and having to change skills. If someone's an expert at something and has just done that for 30 years, the odds of them really wanting to change a lot-

Lex Fridman 12:00 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 12:00 ... are pretty low.And when you're in a really dynamic industry, that's a problem. And so, okay, that was like kind of my first revelation on this. And then when I looked to hiring, I can remember when I started my job, we needed cyber people and I go out there and I look, unemployment in the US was almost 10%. Can't find them. Okay, it's 10% and I can't find the people. Okay, what's the issue? Okay, they're not teaching the right things. It- that led me down a path and it- it was serendipity that I happened to do a review of social- corporate social responsibility. We had this one little fledgling school in a low-income area, an high school with a community college. We gave them internships, direction on curriculum. Lo and behold, we could hire these kids. I said, "Hmm, this is not CSR. Like, I just found a new talent pool." Which takes me to now what I'm doing in my post, you know, post-retirement. I'm like, this idea that don't hire just for a college degree, we had 99% of our hires were college and PhDs, and I'm all for it. So you're very (laughs) don't-

Lex Fridman 13:04 I'm deeply offended.

Ginni Rometty 13:05 No, you should not be.

Lex Fridman 13:06 (laughs) .

Ginni Rometty 13:06 And I- and I, you know, I'm vice chair at Northwestern, one of the vice chairs.

Lex Fridman 13:09 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 13:09 But- but I said, "I just really like aptitude does not equal access." These people didn't have access, but they had aptitude. It changed my whole view to skills first. And so now for hiring, that's kind of a long story to tell you, the number one thing I would hire for now is somebody's willingness to learn. You know, and you can test, you can try different ways, but their curiosity and willingness to learn, hands down, I will take that trait over anything else they have.

Lex Fridman 13:35 So the interview process, the questions you ask?

Ginni Rometty 13:37 Changed, everything changed.

Lex Fridman 13:38 The kind of things you talk to them about is try to get at how curious they are about the world

Ginni Rometty 13:43 And you can do testing and, I mean, there's- we triangulated around it lots of ways. And now look, there are, at the heart of it, what it would do is change, you don't think of buying skills, you see- you think of building skills.

Lex Fridman 13:54 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 13:54 And when you think that way, with so many people, and I think this country, many developed countries being disenfranchised, you got to bring them back into the workforce somehow and they gotta get some kind of contemporary skills. And if you took that approach, you can bring them back into the workforce.

Lex Fridman 14:10 Yeah, I think some interesting combination of humility and passion, 'cause like you said, uh, experts sometimes lack humility, uh, if they call themselves an expert for a few too many years. So you have to have that, uh, beginner's mind and a passion to be able to, uh-

Ginni Rometty 14:26 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 14:26 ... aggressively, constantly be a beginner at everything and learn and learn and learn.

Ginni Rometty 14:30 You know, I- I saw it firsthand when we were beginning this path, you know, down in the cloud and AI, and we said, and people would say, "Oh, IBM, you know, it's existential, they got to change," and all these things. And- and I did hire a lot of people from outside, very willing to learn new things. Come on in, come on in. And I- I sometimes say shiny objects, trained and shiny objects, come on in. But I saw something, it was another one of these...

Lex Fridman 14:55 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 14:55 You're not a shiny object, I'm not saying that.

Lex Fridman 14:56 (laughs) .

Ginni Rometty 14:57 It's, uh, but I learned something. Okay, some of them did fantastic.

Lex Fridman 15:02 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 15:02 And others, they were like, "Well, let me school you on everything." But they didn't realize like we did really mission critical work and that'd break a bank. I mean, they would not understand the certain kind of security and the auditability and everything that had to go on. And then I watched IBM people say, "Oh, I actually could learn something." Some were like, "Yeah, okay, I don't know how to do, that's a really good thing I could learn." And in the end, there was not like one group was a winner and one was a loser. The winners were the people who were willing to learn from each other. I- I mean, it was, to me, it was very stark example of that point. And I- and I saw it firsthand. So that's why I'm so committed to this idea about skills first and that's how people should be hired, promoted, paid, you name it.

Lex Fridman 15:43 Yeah, the AI in general, it seems like nobody really understands now what the future will look like. We're all trying to figure it out. So like what, you know, IBM will look like in 50 years, uh, in relation to the- the software business, the AI is unknown. What Google will look like, what all these companies-

Ginni Rometty 16:01 Yep.

Lex Fridman 16:01 ...we're trying to figure it out- uh, out, and that means constantly learning, taking risks, all of those things. And no- nobody is really skilled in AI (laughs) . 'Cause you have to keep up with all of it, right?

Ginni Rometty 16:13 You're absolutely right. That's right. Yeah, couldn't agree more with

Ginni Rometty 16:16 you on that.

Lex Fridman 16:17 You, uh, you wrote in the book, uh, so speaking of hiring, quote, "My drive for perfection often meant (laughs) I only focused on what needed to change without acknowledging the positive. This could keep people from trusting themselves. It could take me a while to learn that just because I could point something out didn't mean I should. I still spotted errors, but I became more deliberate about what I mentioned and sent back to get fixed. I also tried to curtail my tendency to micromanage and let people execute. I had to stop assuming my way was the best or only way. I was learning that giving other people control builds their confidence and that constantly trying to control people destroys it." Uh, so what's the right balance between showing the way and, uh, helping people find the way?

Ginni Rometty 17:06 That is a good question because like a really flip answer would be as it gets bigger, you have no choice but to just, you know, you can't do it, you have to- you have to tell or show. I mean, you've got to let people find their way, 'cause it's so big you can't, right? That's an obvious answer. Scope of work. Bigger it gets, okay, I've got to let more stuff go. But I have always believed that a- a leader's job is to do as well, and I think there's like a few areas that are really important that you always do. Now, it doesn't meaning you're showing. So like when it has to do with values and value-based decisions, like I think it's really important to constantly show people that you- you walk your talk on that kind of thing, is super important. And I actually think it's a struggle young companies have because those values aren't deeply rooted....and when the storm comes, it's easy to uproot. And, um, so I always felt like when it was that time, I showed it. I got taught that so young, a- as at IBM, and even General Motors, that, um... In fact, I write, I do write about that in the book. First time I was a manager, I had a gentleman telling dirty jokes.

Lex Fridman 18:28 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 18:28 And not to me, but to other people, and it really offended people and, uh, some of the women. This is, this is the very early 80s. And they came, said something. I talked to my boss. I'm a first-time manager, and he was unequivocal with what I should do. He said, and this was a top performer, "It stops immediately or you fire him." So there are a few areas like that that I actually think you have to always continue to role model and show, right? I- I, that to me isn't the kind that, like, when do you let go of stuff, right? So-

Lex Fridman 19:03 The values and, and relationships with, with clients.

Ginni Rometty 19:06 Yeah. Whatever you're in service of. And, and, and the other thing was, I really felt it was really important to role model learning, right? So, you know, I can remember when we started down the journey and we went on to this thing, we called it Think Academy. IBM's long-time motto had been Think. And we said, "Okay. I'm gonna make the first Friday of every month compulsory education." And okay, I mean everybody. Like, everybody. I don't care what your job is, okay? When the whole company has to transform, everybody's gotta get, kinda have some skin in this game and understand it. I taught the first hour of every month for four years. Now-

Lex Fridman 19:42 Nice.

Ginni Rometty 19:42 ...okay, I had to learn something. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 19:44 (laughs)

Ginni Rometty 19:44 So, but it made me lear- but I was like, okay if I can teach this, you can do it, right? I mean, you know, kind of thing.

Lex Fridman 19:50 So, it was a compulsory, uh, Thursday night education for you. (laughs)

Ginni Rometty 19:53 Oh, I'm a little, I'm a little bit better preparer than that.

Lex Fridman 19:55 Okay, sure.

Ginni Rometty 19:55 But yes, you're so right. Yes. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 19:57 So, you, you prepare?

Ginni Rometty 19:58 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 19:59 So, like personality-wise-

Ginni Rometty 19:59 That's another habit. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 20:00 ...you like to prepare?

Ginni Rometty 20:02 Yeah, but there's roots in that go back deeply. Deeply, deeply, deeply. I, and I think it's an interesting reason. So why do, why... Are you... You're a preparer, my friend.

Lex Fridman 20:10 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 20:11 Yes, you are. You prepare for your interviews.

Lex Fridman 20:13 Uh, sure.

Ginni Rometty 20:15 The rest you wing?

Lex Fridman 20:16 Yeah, I wing most of them.

Ginni Rometty 20:16 But that's okay. I mean, you don't have to prepare everything. I don't prepare everything either.

Lex Fridman 20:20 No, but I, I unfortunately wing stuff. I save it to the last minute. I, I push everything. I'm always almost late, and I don't know why that is. I mean, there's some deep psychological thing we should probably investigate, but it's probably the anxiety brings out the performance.

Ginni Rometty 20:34 That can be. That's very true with some people.

Lex Fridman 20:36 I mean, so I'm a programmer in- engineer at heart. And so, so programmers famously overestimate, or underestimate, sorry, how long that something's going to take. And so I just, everything, I always underestimate. And it's almost as if I want to feel this chaos of anxiety of a deadline or something like this. Otherwise, I would be lazy sitting on a beach with a piña colada and relaxing.

Ginni Rometty 20:59 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 20:59 I don't know. So that, we have to know ourselves. But for you-

Ginni Rometty 21:02 For me.

Lex Fridman 21:02 ...you like to prepare.

Ginni Rometty 21:03 Yeah. It, it, it came from a few different places. I mean, one would have been as a, as a kid, I think, um, I was not a memorizer. And my brother is brilliant. He can, he, he, read it once, boom, done. And so I always wanted to understand, like, how something happened. It didn't matter what it was I was doing. It, whether it was algebra theorems. I always wanted, "Don't give me the answer! Don't give me the answer!" You know? I wanna figure it out, figure out, so I could reproduce it again and didn't have to memorize. So, it started with that, and then over time... Okay, so I was in university in the '70s. When I was in engineering school, I was the only woman. You know, I meet people still to this day and they're like, "Oh, I remember you." I'm like, "Yeah, sorry, I don't remember you. There were 30 of you, 1 of me." And I, I, I think you already get that feeling of, okay, I better really study hard, 'cause whatever I say is gonna be remembered in this class, good or bad. And it, it started there. So in some ways, I did it for two reasons. Early on, I think it was a shield for confidence. The more I studied, the more prepared I was, the more confident. That's probably still true to this day. The, the second reason I did it evolved over time and became different to prepare. Um, if I was really prepared, then when we're in the moment, I can really listen to you. See, 'cause I don't have to be doing all this stuff on the fly in my head. And I could actually take things I know and maybe help the situation. So, it really became a way that I could be present and in the moment. And I think that's something a lot of people, that in the moment, I, I learned it from my husband. He doesn't prepare, by the way, at all, so that's not it. But I, but I-

Lex Fridman 22:40 So how did you learn? (laughs)

Ginni Rometty 22:40 But I watched the in the moment part.

Lex Fridman 22:41 The negative example? (laughs)

Ginni Rometty 22:43 No, no, no. He... And I'm not going to change that.

Lex Fridman 22:45 Yes, of course.

Ginni Rometty 22:45 As he says, he's a type Z, I'm an A, okay? So-

Lex Fridman 22:47 That's how love works, yeah.

Ginni Rometty 22:48 And I have been married 43 years, and that seems to work, so... But that idea that you could be in the moment with people is a really important thing.

Lex Fridman 22:56 Yeah, so the, the preparation gives you the freedom to really be-

Ginni Rometty 22:59 It does.

Lex Fridman 22:59 ...present.

Lex Fridman 23:01 So j- just to linger on the, uh, you mentioned your brother. And, uh, it seems like in the book that you really had to, uh, work hard when you studied to, to, to sort of, um... Given that you weren't good at memorization, you really, truly, deeply wanted to understand the stuff and you put in the hard work, and that seems to persist throughout your career. So, um, you know, hard work is often associated with, um, sort of has negative associations. Maybe with burnout, with dissatisfaction. Is there some aspect of hard work, uh, at the core of who you are that led to happiness for you? Did you enjoy it?

Ginni Rometty 23:39 I enjoyed it. So I will be the first. And, and I'm, I'm really careful to say that to people, because I don't think everyone should associate, gee, to do what you did, you have to... There's only one route there, right?

Lex Fridman 23:49 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 23:49 And that's just not true. And I, I do it 'cause I like it. I, in fact, I'm careful-

Lex Fridman 23:53 (laughs)

Ginni Rometty 23:53 ...and as time goes on, you have to be careful. As more and more people watch you, whether you like it, you're a role model or not-

Lex Fridman 23:59 Yes.

Ginni Rometty 23:59 ...you are a role model for pe- whether you know it, like it, want it, does not matter.

Lex Fridman 24:02 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 24:02 I learned that the hard way, and I would have to say to people, "Hey, just 'cause I do this does not mean... I do it for these reasons," right? And so be really explicit. And-... I'd come to believe, usually when people say the word power, I don't know, do you have a positive or negative notion when I say the word power? We'll just do a quick-

Lex Fridman 24:17 Probably negative one, yeah.

Ginni Rometty 24:18 ... For some stereotype or some view that, that it, somebody's abused it in some way.

Lex Fridman 24:22 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 24:22 You can read the newspaper, somebody's doing something. Um, personal people, like I'll ask people, "Do you want power?" And they're like, "Oh, no, I'd rather do good."

Lex Fridman 24:31 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 24:31 And I think the irony is, you need power to do good.

Lex Fridman 24:35 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 24:35 And so that sort of led me down to in... It was, as I thought about my own life, right? 'Cause it s- it starts in a, like many of us, you know, you don't have a lot, but you don't know that, 'cause you're like everybody else around you at that time. And on one end, tragedy, right? My father leaves my mother, uh, homeless. No money, no food, nothing. Four kids, she's never worked a day in her life outside of a home. And I, the irony that here I would end up as the ninth CEO of one of America's iconic companies, and now I co-chair this Group 110, and that journey, as to the biggest thing I learned was, you could do really hard meaningful things in a positive way. So now you ask me about why do I work so hard. I ended up writing the book in three pieces for this reason. When you really think of your life and power, I thought, it kind of felt like a pebble in water, like there's a ring about... You really care about yourself and like the power of yourself, power of me. There's a time it transcends to that you are working with and for others, and another moment when it becomes like about society. So my hard work, I'd ask you, one day sit really hard and think about when you close your eyes, who do you see from your early life, right, and what did you learn? And maybe it's not that hard for you. I mean, it was, it's funny the things then, if I really looked at it, it's no surprise what I do today. And that hard work part, my great-grandma-

Lex Fridman 26:03 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 26:03 ... as, uh, you and I were comparing notes on, on Russia, right? And never spoke English, spoke Russian, came here to this country, was a cleaning person at the Wrigley Building in Chicago. Yet, if she hadn't saved every dime she made, my mother wouldn't have a home and wouldn't have had a car, right? What did I learn from that? Hard work. In fact, actually, she, when I went to college, she's like, "You know, you really should be on a farm. You're so big and strong." (laughs) You know, that was her view. And then my grandmother, another tragic life. What did she do though? And, and think how long. That's in the '40s, the '50s. She made lampshades. And she taught me how to sew, right, so I could sell clothes when we couldn't afford them. But my, my, my memory of my grandma is working seven days a week sewing lampshades. And then here comes my mom in her situation, who, who climbs her way out of it. So I associate that with, well, strong women, by the way, all strong women, and I associate hard work with how you are sure you can always take care of yourself. And so I think that the roots go way back there, and they were always teaching something, right? My great-grandma was teaching me how to cook, how to work a farm, even though I didn't need to be on a farm. (laughs) My, my grandma taught me, you know, here's how to sew, here's how to run a business, and then my mother would teach us that, "Look, with just a little bit of education, look at the difference it could make," right? So anyways, that's a long answer to I think that hard work thing is really deeply rooted from that background.

Lex Fridman 27:34 It gives you a way out from hard times.

Ginni Rometty 27:36 Yeah. You know, I think I've seen you on other podcasts say, uh, I thought I did, "Do you want a plan B?"

Lex Fridman 27:43 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 27:43 Didn't you a- say no, you would not like a plan B?

Lex Fridman 27:46 Yeah, I don't...

Ginni Rometty 27:47 'Cause you're like, "I would prefer my back up against..."

Lex Fridman 27:49 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 27:49 Am I remembering-

Lex Fridman 27:50 You have a story like that. (laughs)

Ginni Rometty 27:52 Y- yeah.

Lex Fridman 27:52 You s- you seem to like, uh, uh, at least certain moments in your life seem to, uh, do well in desperate times.

Ginni Rometty 27:59 True enough. Uh, true enough, that's true. I, I learned that very well. But I also think, um, that maybe th- this isn't the same kind of plan B. I think of it as, like I was taught like always be able to take care of yourself. Don't have to rely on someone else.

Lex Fridman 28:15 Sure.

Ginni Rometty 28:15 And, and I think that to me, so, so that's my plan B, I can take care of myself. And, and it's, it's even after what I lived through with my father, I thought, "Well, this set a bar for bad. After this, nothing's bad." And, and that d- it's a very freeing thought.

Lex Fridman 28:31 The being able to take care of yourself, is that you mean practically or do you mean just a self-belief that, "I'll figure it out"?

Ginni Rometty 28:37 I'll figure it out and practically both, right?

Lex Fridman 28:40 So you wrote, quote, "I vividly remember the last two weeks of my freshman year when I only had 25 cents left. I put the quarter in a clear plastic box on my desk and just stared at it. This is it, I thought. No more money." (laughs) So do you, do you think there's some aspect of that financial stress, e- even desperation, just being hungry, did that play a role in that drive that led to your success to be the, the CEO-

Ginni Rometty 29:09 You know, I, I, I-

Lex Fridman 29:10 ... o- one of the great companies ever?

Ginni Rometty 29:11 ... it's a really interesting question because I was just talking to another colleague who's CEO of another great American company this weekend, and he mentioned to me about all this adversity and he said, or I said to him, I said, "Do you think part of your success is 'cause you had bad stuff happen?"

Lex Fridman 29:29 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 29:30 And he said yes, you know. And so I, I guess I'd be lying if I didn't say I don't think you have to have tragedy, but it does teach you like one really important thing is that there is always a way forward. Always. And it's in your control.

Lex Fridman 29:46 And I think there's probably wisdom for mentorship there, or whe- whether you're a parent or a mentor, that, uh, easy times don't result in growth.

Ginni Rometty 29:55 Yeah. I've heard a lot of my friends and they, they worry. They say, "Gee, my kids have never had bad times."

Lex Fridman 30:00 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 30:00 And so what, you know, what happens here? So I don't know. Is it, is it required, um, and why you end up...... mm, not required, but it sure doesn't hurt.

Lex Fridman 30:09 You had this good line about a advice you were given that growth and comfort never co-exist. Growth and comfort never co-exist, and you have to get used to that thought.

Ginni Rometty 30:19 If someone said that they think of me, like, one of the more profound-

Lex Fridman 30:22 (laughs)

Ginni Rometty 30:22 ... sort of lessons I had- (laughs)

Lex Fridman 30:24 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 30:24 ... um, and the irony is-

Lex Fridman 30:25 That's pretty profound.

Ginni Rometty 30:26 ... it's from my husband.

Lex Fridman 30:27 (laughs)

Ginni Rometty 30:27 And, uh, which is even more, you know, funny actually.

Lex Fridman 30:30 Well, I'm glad you're able to... You could just steal it. I mean, you don't have to give him credit.

Ginni Rometty 30:33 Oh, I have, I have shamelessly. He'll, he'll-

Lex Fridman 30:34 Okay, great.

Ginni Rometty 30:34 ... as he'll tell you. Um, okay, so the story behind growth and comfort never co-exist, but honestly, I think it's been a really freeing thought for me and it's helped me immensely since. Mid-career, and, um, as I write about it in the book, I'm mid-career and I'd been running a pretty big business actually. And the fellow I work for is gonna get a new job. He's gonna get promoted. He calls me and he says, "Hey, you're gonna get my job. In fact, I really want you to have it." And I said to him, "No way." I said, "I'm not ready for that job. I got a lot more things I gotta learn. That is like a huge job. Around the world, every product line, development, you name it, every function. I can't do it." He looked at me. He says, "Well, I think you should go to the interview." For me. I went to the interview the next day, blah, blah, blah. The guy says to me, he looks at me and he says, "I wanna offer you that job." And I said, "I would like to think about it." I said, "I wanna go home and talk to my husband about it." Kinda looked at me. "Okay." I went home. My husband is sitting there and he says to me... I went on and on about the story, et cetera. And he says, "Do you think a man would have answered it that way?" And I said, "Mm-hmm." He says, "I know you." He's like, "Six months, you're gonna be bored. And you, all you can think of is what you don't know."

Lex Fridman 31:55 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 31:55 And he said, "I know these other people. You have way more skill than them and they think they could do it." And he's like, "Wh- w- why?" And, and for me, it internalized this feeling that... A- and it, and it... I'm gonna s- I am gonna say something that's a bit stereotype that it resonates with many, many women, and I'll ask you if it does after, is that, uh, you know, they're the most harsh critic of themselves. And so this idea that I won't grow unless I can feel uncomfortable. Doesn't mean I always have to show it, by the way.

Lex Fridman 32:23 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 32:24 So that's why I meant growth and comfort can never co-exist. So I, I got... Uh, I was like, "He's exactly right." Now, the end of that story is I went in and I took the job.

Lex Fridman 32:32 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 32:33 When I went back to the man who was really my mentor looking out for me, and he, he looked at me and he said, "Don't ever do that again." And I said, "I understand." Because it was okay to be uncomfortable. I didn't have to use it. I mean, now, I would take stock of the things I can do, right? And really think. Or I look for times to be uncomfortable. Because I know if I am nervous, like, I don't know if you were nervous to meet me. We've never met in real per-

Lex Fridman 32:59 100%.

Ginni Rometty 32:59 (laughs) No hundred...

Lex Fridman 33:00 I'm still terrified.

Ginni Rometty 33:00 No, you're not.

Lex Fridman 33:01 (laughs)

Ginni Rometty 33:01 But then you're- it means you're learning something, right?

Lex Fridman 33:04 Holding it together.

Ginni Rometty 33:05 So-

Lex Fridman 33:05 Well, I also-

Ginni Rometty 33:06 ... that, to me, matters.

Lex Fridman 33:08 I think it's interesting, the... Maybe you could speak to that, the, the sort of the self-critical thing inside your, inside your brain. 'Cause I, I think sometimes, um, it's talked about that women have that. Um, but I have that, definitely. And I think that's not just solely a property of women-

Ginni Rometty 33:27 No, I don't think it is either.

Lex Fridman 33:28 ... in the workplace. But I also wanna sort of push back on the idea that that's a bad thing that you should silence. 'Cause I think that anxiety, that leads to growth al- also. That's like this discomfort. So there's this weird balance you have to have between that self-critical engine and confidence.

Ginni Rometty 33:44 Yeah, I think that's a good point.

Lex Fridman 33:45 Like you have to kinda dance. 'Cause if you're super confident, people will value you higher. That's important. But if you're way too confident, maybe in the short term you'll gain, but in the long term, you won't grow.

Ginni Rometty 33:54 Very good point. I, so I can't really disagree with that. A- and, and, and to me, even when I took on jobs, I always felt, people say, "Well, is it... You know, what point are you confident enough?" And I st- I came to sort of believe, again, a theme of my beliefs, that if I was willing to ask lots of questions and understood enough, that's all I needed to know.

Lex Fridman 34:14 Let me ask you about your husband a little bit. (laughs)

Ginni Rometty 34:17 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 34:17 So, so you write in the book, you're, you're, you write in the book. It's just jumping around. Uh, like I said, I'm a bit of a romantic. So h- h- how did you meet your husband?

Ginni Rometty 34:24 So I met my husband when I was 19 years old, so I was a young kid. Um, and I met him when I had a General Motors scholarship. So I was at Northwestern University through my first two years. I had a lot of loans, financial aid. And a professor said, "Hey, you should sign up for this interview. They're looking to bring forward diverse candidates through their management track. Now, these programs don't exist anymore like that. They will pay your tuition, your room and board, your expenses at Northwestern," other Ivy League school, these very expensive schools. "And, um, I think you'd be a good fit." I am eternally thankful for that advice. I went, I interviewed, I actually got the scholarship. Um, I mean, without it, I'd have graduated with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt. Um, so part of that was in the summer, I had to work in Detroit. I lived in a little room by a cement plant. Uh, not theirs, but, I mean, that's all I could afford.

Lex Fridman 35:17 Very romantic.

Ginni Rometty 35:18 Very, very romantic. And, uh, the person who owned the house said, you know, "Hey, I'm having a party. You're not invited. I'm going to fix you up with someone tonight." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 35:26 (laughs)

Ginni Rometty 35:26 And that turned out to be my husband. And so it was a blind date is, uh, is how we very first met.

Lex Fridman 35:31 And then it was over. It was... (laughs)

Ginni Rometty 35:33 It was, and then it was-

Lex Fridman 35:34 The story was written.

Ginni Rometty 35:35 Yep.

Lex Fridman 35:35 Uh, l- let's, if it's okay, just zoom out

Lex Fridman 35:38 to... Uh, you mentioned, uh, power and good power a few times. So if we can just even talk about it. Your, your book is called Good Power: Leading Positive Change in Our Lives, Work, and World. What is good power? What's the essence of good power?

Ginni Rometty 35:50 Yeah. So the essence of it would be doing something hard or meaningful, but in a positive way. Um, I would also tell you, I hope one day I'm remembered for how I did things, not just for what I did. I think that could almost be more important. And I think it's a choice we can all make. So the essence, to me, of good power, if I had to contrast good to bad, let's say, would be that, first off-You have to embrace and navigate tension. This is the world we live in. And by embracing tension, not running from it, you would bridge divides that unites people, not divides 'em. It's a hard thing to do, but you can do it. You do it with respect, which is the opposite of fear. A lot of people think the way to get things done is fear. And then the third thing would be, you gotta celebrate some progress versus perfection, because I also think that's what stops a lot of things from happening because, you know, if you go for whatever your definition of perfect is, it can e- it's either polarization or paralyzation. I mean, i- i- something happens in there. Versus, no, no, no, I can... I- i- don't worry about getting to that actual exact end point. If I keep taking a step forward of progress, really tough stuff can get done. And so my view of that is like, honestly, I hope it can then, you know... I said it's like a memoir with purpose. I'm only doing it, it was a really hard thing for me to do, 'cause I don't actually talk about all these things and I had to... Nobody cares about your, like, scientific description of this; they want the stories in your life to bring it alive. So it's a memoir with purpose, and in the writing of it, it became the power of me, the power of we, and the power of us. The idea that you build a foundation when you're young, mostly from my work life, the power of we, which says... I kind of, in retrospect, could see five principles on how to really drive change, um, that would be done in a good way. And then eventually you could scale that, the power, y- really of us, which is what I'm doing about finding better jobs for more people now that I co- this, co-chair an organization called OneTen. So that essence of navigate tensions, do it respectfully, celebrate progress, and give me, indulge me one more minute, these sort of, again, it's retrospect that I, eh, I didn't know this in the moment. I had to learn it. I learned it, I am blessed by a lot of people I worked with and around and... But some of the, the principles, like the first one is, says, if you're gonna do something, change something, do something, you gotta be in service of something. Being in service of is really different than serving. Super different. And like I, I just had my knee replaced. And I interviewed all these doctors. You can tell the difference if the guy who was going to do a surgery, "Hey, my surgery's fine. I really don't care whether you can walk and do the stuff you wanted to do again but, 'cause my surgery's fine. Your hardware is good."

Lex Fridman 38:50 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 38:51 I actually had some trouble. And I had a doctor who was like, "You know, this doesn't sound right. I'm coming to you." Yeah, the surgery was fine. It was me that was reacting wrong to it, and he didn't care until I could walk again, okay? There's a big difference in those two things. And i- and it's true in any business you have. Um, a waiter serves you food, okay? He served his food. He did his job. Or did he care you had a good time? So that thought to be in service of, it took me a while to get that, like to try to write it, to get that across, 'cause I think it's like so fundamental. If people were really in service of something, you gotta believe that if I fulfill your needs, at the end of the day, mine will be fulfilled.

Lex Fridman 39:31 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 39:31 And, and that is that essence that makes it so different. And then the second part, second principle is about building belief, which is, I gotta hope you will voluntarily believe in a new future or in some alternate reality, and you will use your discretionary energy, versus me ordering you. You'll get so much more done. Then the third, change and endure. We kind of talked about that earlier. Focus more on the how and the skills. And then the part on Good Tech and being resilient. So anyways, I, I just felt that, like Good Tech, everybody's a tech company. I don't care what you do today. E- and there's some fundamental things you gotta do. I- in fact, pick up today's, any newspaper, right? ChatGPT. You're an AI guy.

Lex Fridman 40:15 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 40:16 All right? I, I believe one of the tenets of Good Tech is, it's like responsibility for the long term, and it says, so if you're going to invent something, you better look at its upside and its downside, like we did quantum computing. Great, a lot of great stuff, right? Materials development, uh, risk management calculations, e- endless lists one day. On the other side, it can break encryption. That's a bad thing. So we worked equally hard on all the algorithms that would sustain quantum. I, I think with chat, okay, great. There's equal in, and there are people working on it, but like, okay, there're things that say, "Hey, I can tell this was written with that," right? Because the implications on how people learn, right? If... This is not a great thing if all it does is do your homework. That is not the idea of homework, (laughs) as, as someone who liked to study so hard. But anyways, you get my point, th- it's just the upside and the downside.

Lex Fridman 41:07 And that there could be much larger implications that are much more difficult to predict and it's our responsibility-

Ginni Rometty 41:11 Absolutely.

Lex Fridman 41:12 ... to, to really work hard to, to, to, to figure that out.

Ginni Rometty 41:14 Yeah, I was talking AI ethics a decade ago and I'm like, "Why won't anybody listen to us?"

Lex Fridman 41:18 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 41:18 You know? I'm... It, it's... That's another one of those values things that you realize, hey, if I'm gonna bring technology in the world, I better bring it safely, right?

Lex Fridman 41:26 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 41:27 And that to me comes with, when you're an older company that's been around, you realize that society gave you a license to operate, and it can take it away.

Lex Fridman 41:35 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 41:35 A- and we see that happen to companies. And therefore you're like, okay, like why I feel so strong about skills. Hey, if I'm gonna bring in, it's gonna create all these new jobs, job dislocation, then I should help on trying to help people get new skills. Anyways, that's a long answer to well, Good Tech, but the idea that there's kind of, in retrospect, a set of principles you could look at and maybe learn something from my sort of rocky road through there.

Lex Fridman 42:01 But it started with the power of we, and there's that big leap, I think, that propagates to the things you're saying, which is the leap from focusing on yourself to the focusing on others, so the having that empathy. You've said, uh, "At some point in our lives and careers, our attention turns from ourselves to others. We still have our own goals, but we recognize that our actions affect many, that it is impossible to achieve anything truly meaningful alone." So it's... To you, I think, maybe you can correct me, but ultimate good power is about......collaboration, uh, and maybe in, you know, in- in a large conference, like delegation on- on great teams.

Ginni Rometty 42:42 The ultimate good power is actually doing something for society. That would be my ultimate definition of good power, by the way.

Lex Fridman 42:46 So it's about the results of the thing.

Ginni Rometty 42:48 Yeah. It- it- it... But how it's done, right? The how it's done. And so, um, you know, when you said a leap, do you think you- people make a leap when they go from thinking about themselves to others? Do you think it's a leap or do you think-

Lex Fridman 43:01 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 43:01 ...it kind of just is a sort of slow point?

Lex Fridman 43:04 I think the leap is in deciding that this is a... Oh, it- it's like deciding that you will care about others. That this is... It's like- it's like a leap of going to the gym for the first time. It's, yes, it takes a long time to develop that and to actually care, but that decision that I'm going to actually care about other human beings, yeah.

Ginni Rometty 43:23 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 43:23 I think, or at least like, yeah, it- it just feels like a deliberate action you take of empathy.

Ginni Rometty 43:29 Yeah, 'cause sometimes I think it happens a little, i- i- it's maybe not-

Lex Fridman 43:32 Gradual?

Ginni Rometty 43:32 ...as deliberate. Yeah, it- it's a little bit more gradual because it might happen because you realized that, "Geez, I can't get this done alone, so I gotta have other people with me. Well, how do I get them to help-"

Lex Fridman 43:40 Oh, I see.

Ginni Rometty 43:40 "...me do something?" So I think it does help and- happen a little bit more gradually and as you get more confident, you start to not think so much that it's about you, and you start to think about this other thing you're trying to accomplish. And so, that's why I felt it was a little more, uh, gradual. Uh, I also felt like, I- I can remember so well, you know, this idea that, um, again, now we're in the '80s, '90s, I'm a woman, I'm in technology and I was down in Australia at a conference and I gave this great speech, again, me, power of me, you know, I'm thinking I give this great speech, financial services, this guy walk, man walks up to me after, I think he's gonna, like, ask me some great question, and he said to me, "I wish my daughter could've been here." And in that moment, a- a- and I, and at that point, up to then, I'd always been about, "Look, please, don't notice I'm a woman. Do not notice that. I am... I just want to be recognized for my work." Crossing over from me to we, like it or not, I was a role model for some number of people. And maybe I didn't wanna be, but that didn't really matter. So I could either accept that and embrace it or not. I think it's a good example of that transition. I did have a little epiphany with that happening, and then I'm like, "Okay..." 'Cause I would always be like, "No, I won't go on a women's conference. I won't talk here. I won't t-" You know, no, no, no. Um, but then I sort of realized, wait a second. You know that old saying, "You cannot be what you cannot see." And I- I said to myself, w- oh, wait a second. Okay. I am in these positions. I have a responsibility to, and it's to others. And that's what I meant. I felt like it can be somewhat gradual that you come and you may have these, like, pivotal moments that you see it, but then you feel it and y- you sort of move over that transom into the power of we.

Lex Fridman 45:28 You're one of the most powerful tech leaders ever and as you mentioned the word power, you know the old saying goes power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Was there an aspect of power that was, uh, that you had to resist its ability to corrupt your mind to, um, to sort of deli- delude you into thinking you're smarter than you are, that kind of-

Ginni Rometty 45:55 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 45:55 All- all the ways that power corrupts.

Ginni Rometty 45:56 That's very dangerous. I agree with... I mean, I think you gotta be careful who you surround yourself with.

Lex Fridman 46:00 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 46:01 That's how I would answer that question, right? And people who hold the mirror up to you, c- can be done in a very positive way, by the way. Doesn't mean, you know... But, uh, that we're sycophants. You cannot have that, right? I mean, it's like, I always say to someone, like, um, "Hey, listen to me. Tell, I mean, tell me what would make me better or do something or..." I have a husband that'll do that for me quite easily, by the way (laughs) . He'll always tell me.

Lex Fridman 46:21 So he's the one who kinda can give you some criticism sometimes?

Ginni Rometty 46:24 Oh, he... I have- I have been surrounding myself with a number of people that will do that, and I think you have to have that. I had a, a woman that worked with me for a very long time and, um, at one time we were competitors, and then at some point she started to work for me, and stayed with me for quite a while. And she was one of the few people that would tell me the truth and- and, you know, sometimes I'm like, "Enough already."

Lex Fridman 46:42 (laughs)

Ginni Rometty 46:43 And- and she'd be like, "Do not roll your eyes at this." And you absolutely have got to have that and- and I think it also comes, it'll go back to my complete commitment to inclusion and diversity, 'cause you gotta have that variety around you. You'll get a better product and a better answer at the end of the day. And so that, to resist that allure, I think it's around who, about who you surround yourself with. I, uh, current politics would say that too.

Lex Fridman 47:06 So you, uh, you write about and in general you value diversity a lot, so e- can you speak to almost like philosophically, what does diversity mean to you?

Ginni Rometty 47:15 Diversity to me means I'm gonna get a better product, a better answer, I value different views, and so it's inclusion. So I was saying inclusion, diversity's a number, inclusion's a choice. And you can make that choice every single day.

Lex Fridman 47:33 That's a good line.

Ginni Rometty 47:34 I really believe and I witnessed it, that I've had when my teams are diverse I get a better answer. My friends are diverse, I have a better life. I mean, all these kinds of things, and so, um, I also believe it's like no silver thread, there's no easy way. You have to authentically believe it. I mean, do you authentically believe that, that diversity's a good thing?

Lex Fridman 47:55 Yeah. But I- I believe that diversity, like broadly-

Ginni Rometty 47:58 A thought? I very broadly define it.

Lex Fridman 48:00 Yeah, so like there's, you know, sometimes the way diversity's looked at or the- the way diversity's used today is like surface level characteristics, which are also important. Uh, but they're usually reflective of something else which is a diversity of background, a diversity of thought, a diversity of struggle. Uh, some people that grow up middle class, uh, versus poor. Different countries, different motivations, all of that. Yeah, it's beautiful and different people from very different walks of life get together. Yeah, it's beautiful to see. But like sometimes it's very difficult to get at that on a sheet of paper.

Ginni Rometty 48:34 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 48:34 Uh, of- of the characteristics that defines the diversity.

Ginni Rometty 48:37 I know. So it- it is, it's just like, oh, I can't hire exactly for- or if I'm-

Lex Fridman 48:40 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 48:40 ...trying to...... and, but I do know one thing that when people say, "Oh, I can't find these kind of people I'm, I'm looking for." I'm like, "You're just not looking in the right places."

Lex Fridman 48:48 Right. You have to open up, like you just said-

Ginni Rometty 48:49 You gotta really open up new pools, right?

Lex Fridman 48:51 Yeah. You have to think, uh, yeah, like everybody, you don't have to have a PhD just like you said. Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 48:55 I'm sorry to say it, you know?

Lex Fridman 48:57 (laughs)

Ginni Rometty 48:57 I know, I know it's very valuable what you have, trust me. But, uh-

Lex Fridman 48:59 Well, i- i- it could, it, just like you said, it could even be a, a negative. So you mentioned, uh,

Lex Fridman 49:05 like, for good power, you are a CEO of, uh, you were a CEO for a long time of a public company. Were there times when there was pressure to sacrifice what is good for the world, um, for the bottom line, in order to do what's good for the company?

Ginni Rometty 49:20 Yeah. There were probably, there were a lot of times for that. I mean, I, I, uh, I think every company faces that today, in that, um, I always felt like there's so much discussion about stakeholder capitalism, right? Do you just serve a shareholder? Or do you have multiple? I have always found, and I've been very vocal about that topic, that, um, when I participated in the business roundtable, wrote up a new purpose statement that had multiple stakeholders, I think it's common sense. Like if you're gonna be 100 years old, you only get there because you actually do at some time balance all these different stakeholders in what it is that you do, and short-term, long-term, all these trade-offs. And I always say people who write about it, they write about it black and white, but I have to live in a gray world. It, nothing I've ever done has been in a black and white world, hardly. Maybe things of values that I had to answer.

Lex Fridman 50:05 Sure.

Ginni Rometty 50:05 But most of it is gray. And so, um, I think back lots of different decisions. Um, I think back, uh, as you would well remember, you're a student of history, IBM was one of the really the originators of the semiconductor industry, and certainly of commercializing the semiconductor industry. Great R&D and manufacturing, but it is a game of volume. And so when I came on, we were still manufacturing R&D and manufacturing our own chips. We were losing a lot of money, yet here we had to fight a war on cloud and AI.

Lex Fridman 50:38 Right.

Ginni Rometty 50:38 And so, okay, now shareholders would say, "Fine, shut it down." Okay, those chips also power some of the most important systems that power the, these, the banks of today.

Lex Fridman 50:48 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 50:48 If I just shut it down, well, what would that do? And so, okay, the answer wasn't just, "Stop it." The answer wasn't just, "Keep putting money into it." The answer was, and we had to kinda sit in an uncomfortable spot 'til we found a way. I mean, this is gonna sound so basic, but you as an engineer understand it. We had to separate i- it was a very integrated process of research, development, and manufacturing. And you'd also, you'd, you'd be perfecting things in manufacturing, uh, and it's, these were very high performance chips. We had to be able to separate those. We eventually found a way to do that, so that we could, um, take the manufacturing elsewhere and we would maintain the R&D. It's, it's a s- I think it's a great example of the question you just asked, because, uh, there was, people would've applauded, others would've been, "This was horrible." Or, or we'd had a financial roadmap that had been put in place that said, "I'll make this amount of EPS by this date." There came a time we couldn't honor it, because we had to invest. And so there's a million of these decisions. I, I think most people that run firms, any size firm, they're just one right after another like that.

Lex Fridman 51:53 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 51:53 And you're always making that short and long tension of, "What am I giving up?"

Lex Fridman 51:58 Well, what is that partnership like with the, with the clients? 'Cause you work with gigantic businesses. And wha- wha- what's it like sort of, um, really forming a great relationship with them, understanding what their needs are, being in service of their, of their needs?

Ginni Rometty 52:13 In, in service of, yeah. Very simple. Honor your promises. And that happens over time. I mean, in service of, you know, which is often why you can work with competitors, because if you are really in service of you and you need something and it takes two of us to do it-

Lex Fridman 52:29 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 52:30 ... that becomes easier to do, because I really, we both care you get what you needed. And so I can remember, um, during one of the times I was on a European trip, and at the time, a lot of, and, and this is still true about views about technology and national technology giants and global ones and the pros and the cons, and countries want their own national champions, quite obvious. I mean, if I'm France or Germany, and, um, there was a lot of discussion about security and data and who was getting access to what. And I can remember being in one of the, uh, I was with Chancellor Merkel. I had met her many times. She's very well-prepared, very well-prepared every time.

Lex Fridman 53:08 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 53:08 She would know. And I started to explain all these things about why, how, you know, how we don't share data, how, who it belongs to. Our system's never had backdoors, and she sort of stopped me. Like, "You're one of the good guys." Like, "Stop." Now, that wasn't about me personally. She's, she's talking about a company that's asked to con- acted consistent with values for decades, right? So to me, how you work with those big kind of clients is, you honor your promises. You, you, you say what you do and you do what you say, and you act with values over a long period of time. I, I, and, and that to me, people say, "Well, value, it is not a fluffy thing." It is not a fluffy thing. It is a, I, I mean, if I was starting a company now, I'd spend a lot of time on that. On, you know, why we do what we do and why some things are tolerable and something, you know, what your fundamental beliefs are. And, uh, and many people sort of zoom past that stage, right? It's okay for a while, until-

Lex Fridman 54:05 And ne- and never sacrifice that throughout.

Ginni Rometty 54:08 Uh, you would never sacrifice that. I don't

Ginni Rometty 54:10 think you can.

Lex Fridman 54:10 So there was a lot of pressure when you, uh, took over as CEO and there was 22 consecutive quarters of revenue decline between 2012 and the summer of 2017. So it was a stressful time, maybe not, maybe you can, uh, correct me on that. So, uh, as a CEO, what was it like going through that time-

Ginni Rometty 54:28 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 54:28 ... with the decisions, the tensions, in terms of investing versus, uh, making a profit?

Ginni Rometty 54:35 I always felt that that sense of urgency was so high. And even if I was calm on the outside, because you, you have-... one of the world's largest pensions. So, so many people depend on you. You have a huge workforce, they're depending on you. You have clients whose businesses don't run if you don't perform, et cetera. And shareholders, of course, right? And so... But, I also am really clear, this was perhaps the largest reinvention IBM ever had to undertake.

Lex Fridman 55:03 Yes.

Ginni Rometty 55:04 Had a board that understood that. In fact, some people, some of the headlines were like, "This is existential," right? I mean, nobody gives you a right to exist forever. And there aren't many techs, you're the student of it. They are gone, they are all gone. And so if we didn't reinvent ourselves, we were gonna be extinct. And so... Now, but you're big, and it's like changing... What's that old saying? "Can I change, um, the wheels while the train's running?" Or something like that.

Lex Fridman 55:30 Yeah, yeah.

Ginni Rometty 55:30 Or the engines while the plane's flying?

Lex Fridman 55:32 Yeah, exactly.

Ginni Rometty 55:33 And that's what you have to do, and that took time. And so, you know, Lex, do I wish it would have been faster? Absolutely. But the team worked so hard, and in my, in that timeframe, 50% of the portfolio was changed. It's a very large company. And, um, if you would... I also divested $10 billion of businesses. So if you would look at that growth rate without divestitures and currency, which now, today, everyone talks about currency. Back then, we were the only international guy. Um, net of divestitures and currency, the growth was flat. Is flat great? No. But flat for a big transformation? I was really proud of the team for what they did. That is actually pretty miraculous to have made it through that. I had my little nephew one day and he would see on TV occasionally when there'd be criticism, and he'd say, uh, you know, "Auntie, doesn't, doesn't that make you mad when they talk mean?"

Lex Fridman 56:25 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 56:26 And I just looked at him and I said... And he says, "How do you feel?" I said, "Look, I'm doing what has to be done." And I happened to be the one there. A- and if you have great conviction, and I did, a great conviction. I knew it was the right thing. I knew it would be needed for IBM to live its second century. And so, and my successor, they have picked up, gone forward. I mean, you go back, we did the acquisition of Red Hat. I mean, we had to find our way on cloud, right? We were late to it, so we had to find our way, and eventually that led us to hybrid cloud. We did a lot of work with Red Hat back in 2017. Oh, we'd always done a lot of work with them. Actually, we were one of the first investors when they were first formed. Um, but that was 2018, you know? We took quite a hit for even, you know, oh, it was the largest to then software acquisition ever. But it is the foundation, right, of what is our hybrid cloud play today and doing very, very well. So, but it had to take a short term hit for that, right? A short term hit for a very large $34 billion acquisition. Uh, but it was, for all of us, it was the right thing to do. So I think when you get really centered on, you know it's the right thing to do, you just keep going, right?

Lex Fridman 57:35 So the team had the vision, they had the belief and everything else, the criticism doesn't matter.

Ginni Rometty 57:39 And we had to pivot, so don't, we didn't always have exactly the right, uh, you know, this wasn't a straight arrow. But stay down, you know you're right. Keep going. Okay, made a mistake. You know, there's no bad mistake as long as you learn from it, right? And, and keep moving. So yes, did it take longer? But we are the largest that was there.

Lex Fridman 57:54 Could you maybe just, on a small tangent, educate me a little bit? So, Red Hat originally is Linux, open source distribution of Linux, but it's also a consulting, well, it's- it's-

Ginni Rometty 58:04 A little bit of consulting, but it's mostly software distri- it's, it's mostly Linux.

Lex Fridman 58:07 So it's mostly software?

Ginni Rometty 58:07 It was mostly software, yeah.

Lex Fridman 58:09 Oh, wow, okay.

Ginni Rometty 58:09 Absolutely. Absolutely.

Lex Fridman 58:11 So, but today, uh, IBM is very much this, you know-

Ginni Rometty 58:14 Services?

Lex Fridman 58:14 Most IT services in the world is done by I- IBM. There's so many, so many varied, uh, so basically if you have issues, problems to solve in, in business, uh, in the software space, IBM can help.

Ginni Rometty 58:29 Yes. And so in, in that, my last year, uh, our services business, we broke it into two pieces. And one piece was spun off into a company called Kyndryl, which is managed outsourcing.

Lex Fridman 58:39 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 58:40 Um, keeping things running, and they're off creating their own company. What IBM then retained is really the part I built with PWCC, the big consulting arm. And so today, the IBM of today in 2023 is, you know, at least ending 2022, was 30% consulting and the other 70% would be, uh, what would you consider software cloud AI. So hybrid cloud and AI is the other, and, and some hardware, obviously. Still the mainframe is modernized, alive and kicking, and still running some of the most important things of every bank you can think of, practically-

Lex Fridman 59:13 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 59:14 ... uh, in the world. And so that is the IBM of today, um, versus perhaps... You know, and Red Hat is a big piece and an important part of that software portfolio. And they had some services with them for implementation, but it wasn't a very, a very large part. And it's, it's grown by leaps and bounds. You know, because originally, the belief was everything was gonna go to the public cloud. And at least many people thought that way. We didn't, uh, and in fact, we, I mean, we tried. We procured a public cloud company. We really tried to work it. But what we found was a lot of the mission critical work, it, it was tuned for consumer world, it wasn't tuned for the enterprise. So then time is elapsing here though, and you gotta be up scale.

Lex Fridman 59:59 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 59:59 And we didn't have any application... Remember, we're not an application company, so it wasn't like we had an office. We didn't have anything that, like, pulled things out to the cloud.

Lex Fridman 1:00:09 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 1:00:09 And so as we looked for what our best, what we really, back to who you are, we really know mission critical work. We know where it lives today and we know how to make it live on the cloud, which led us down hybrid cloud. You know, that belief that the real world would turn into, there'll be things on traditional that'll, you'll never move 'cause it doesn't make sense. There'll be private clouds for, you know, have all the benefit of the cloud, but they just don't have, you know, infinite expansion. And then there'll be public clouds, and you're gonna have to connect them and be secure. And that's what took us down the path with Red Hat, that belief.

Lex Fridman 1:00:41 The structure of that is fundamentally different than something that's consumer facing. So the, the lesson you learn there is you can't just reuse something that, that's optimized for consumers.

Ginni Rometty 1:00:49 Yeah. Very interesting point. Doesn't mean consumer companies can't move up into the enterprise, 'cause obviously they have, right?... but I think it's very hard to take something from the enterprise and come on down.

Lex Fridman 1:00:58 Sure.

Ginni Rometty 1:00:58 Um, and because it's gotta be simple, consumable-

Lex Fridman 1:01:00 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 1:01:00 ... all the things we talked about already.

Lex Fridman 1:01:02 Plus you have to have the relationships with enterprise they have to go through.

Ginni Rometty 1:01:04 Yeah, very different. Yeah. I mean, you know our history, right? At one time we had the PC business. And, you know, the short answer to why would we would not do that is it's a consumer-facing business. We were good at the enterprise. And that consumer business, A, highly competitive, gotta be low-cost, all the things that are not the same muscles necessarily of being in an innovation-driven, you know, uh, technology business.

Lex Fridman 1:01:28 Yeah. But what is now Lenovo, I guess, that's what just spent-

Ginni Rometty 1:01:30 That's right. Lenovo acquired it.

Lex Fridman 1:01:31 Because they're ex- extremely good at that, so, but not as good as you're saying as an, a, an enterprise. Or it's not-

Ginni Rometty 1:01:38 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:01:38 It was a, it was creating-

Ginni Rometty 1:01:38 Lenovo's very good at their PC world, yes.

Lex Fridman 1:01:40 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 1:01:40 But I wouldn't ... And, and they can sell into the enterprise, right?

Lex Fridman 1:01:43 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 1:01:43 But you as a consumer can go buy a Lenovo too. So look at, look in China, right? Look in other places. So, um, that's what I mean by a consumer, you know, an end device. And that was a big decision, because it would have been one of the last things that had our logo on it that sits in your hands, right? So when a new generation says, "Well, what does IBM do?" Right?

Lex Fridman 1:01:59 Was that a difficult decision?

Ginni Rometty 1:02:00 Um.

Lex Fridman 1:02:00 Do you remember?

Ginni Rometty 1:02:02 Y- this was a long time ago now.

Lex Fridman 1:02:03 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 1:02:03 It was, like, 2005.

Lex Fridman 1:02:04 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 1:02:04 So, um, they're all difficult, because it's not only things, it's people. Um, but it's back to knowing who you are is how I would sum that up as, right? And we were never great at making a lot of money at that. And, and you can remember, originally it was IBM PC, then there were IBM clones.

Lex Fridman 1:02:22 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 1:02:22 Or y- they even called IBM clones back then, um, as the field became highly, highly competitive. And as things commoditized, we often, as they commoditize, we would move them out and move on to the next innovation level.

Lex Fridman 1:02:37 But because of that, it's not as public-facing, even though it's-

Ginni Rometty 1:02:40 That's right. That's absolutely right. That is-

Lex Fridman 1:02:41 ... one of the most recognizable logos ever (laughs) .

Ginni Rometty 1:02:43 Yeah. Isn't it tr- that is very true. That is actually a very important point, and that is, you know, branding, as you say, one of the most recognizable and a, and a very highly-ranked brand strength around the world. And so, that's a trade-off. I mean, I can't, you know ... It, it ... 'cause there was a time you'd have something of IBM in your home or at, right? Or a cash register, as an example. You'd walk into a store. Actually, they're still in places (laughs) . Uh, that went to Toshiba.

Lex Fridman 1:03:10 Can you speak to consulting a little bit? Wh- what does that entail to train up, to hire a workforce that can be of service to all kinds of different problems in the software space, in the tech space?

Ginni Rometty 1:03:21 Yeah. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:03:21 What's entailed in that?

Ginni Rometty 1:03:23 I mean, you have to value a different set of things, right? And so, you've got to always stay ahead. It's about hiring people who are willing to learn. It is about, um ... At the same time, in my view, it's what really drives you to be customer-centric.

Lex Fridman 1:03:39 Maybe you can educate me. I think consulting is a kind of, you roll in, and you try to solve problems that businesses have, like with expertise, right?

Ginni Rometty 1:03:51 Okay.

Lex Fridman 1:03:52 Is that-

Ginni Rometty 1:03:52 Y-

Lex Fridman 1:03:52 Is that the process of consulting?

Ginni Rometty 1:03:53 Somewhat. Right? So there, that, okay, so fair enough. When you say the word consulting, it's a really broad spectrum.

Lex Fridman 1:03:59 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 1:03:59 I mean, I think people could be sitting here thinking it does any, it could be I just give advice and I leave-

Lex Fridman 1:04:04 Yes.

Ginni Rometty 1:04:04 ... to all the way to I run your systems, right? And I think it's, it's generally people use the word to cover everything in that, in that space. So we sort of fit in the spot which is, we would come in and live at that intersection of business and technology. So yeah, we could give you recommendations, and then we'd implement them and see them through, because we had the technology to go-

Lex Fridman 1:04:23 Got it.

Ginni Rometty 1:04:23 ... to the implementation and see them through.

Lex Fridman 1:04:25 Got it.

Ginni Rometty 1:04:25 And at the time, back then, that's what, you know ... There'd been five of those that had failed. The companies had bought other consulting firms. And, um, so we were ... Okay, that was the great thing about ... I mean, the harrowing thing about it was, "Here, please, go work on this. None of the others have ever succeeded before." And, um, yet, on the other hand, the great promise was, you could really ... Clients were dying at that time when we were doing that, to s- to get more value out of their technology and have it really change the way the business worked. So I think of it as how to improve business and apply technology and see it all the way through. That's what we do today still.

Lex Fridman 1:04:56 Yeah. Uh, to see it all the way through.

Ginni Rometty 1:04:58 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:04:58 Yes. Uh, so let me say almost like a personal question. So that, that was a big thing you were part of that you led, uh, in 2002, that you championed and helped, I should say, uh, negotiate the purchase of Mondey, the, the consulting arm, um, of PricewaterhouseCoopers for $3.5 billion. So what was, what were some of the challenges of that that you remember? Personal and business.

Ginni Rometty 1:05:24 At that time, uh, PW had to di- really had to divest. And so they were in peril of going to IPO, right? So we sort of swept in at that point and said ... And we'd been thinking about it a long time. And, uh, started to, to work on that as an acquisition. So, you know, kind of balancing which way would they go, IPO or acquisition? And so the challenges are obvious, and part of it's why they went with us as an acquisition. Big difference to be a private firm than a public firm. Very big. I can remember one of the, the guys, you know, he asked somebody, "How long you been with IBM?" And the person answered, "143 quarters."

Lex Fridman 1:05:55 (laughs)

Ginni Rometty 1:05:56 Okay, that's a little enlightening about a business model, right?

Lex Fridman 1:05:59 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 1:05:59 Um, so we had the challenges of being private versus public. You have the challenge of when you acquire something like that, as I say, you acquire hearts, not parts. Um, they could leave. I mean, you could destroy your value by them leaving. I- they can walk right out the door. I mean, yes, you can put, you know, lots of restraints, but still, uh, that you had there. And then we had to really build a new business model that people and clients would, you know, see as valuable and be willing to pay for.

Lex Fridman 1:06:26 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 1:06:26 And so, we had to do something that lived at that intersection and say that how this was unique is what we were doing. So you had the people aspect. You had that they were gonna be private and they had, or public, and they had always been private their whole life.

Lex Fridman 1:06:40 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 1:06:40 And, and then you had the business model. So and the others had all failed, that had tried to do this. So yeah, it was a, it was, it was a tough thing to do.

Lex Fridman 1:06:50 What about the personal side of that? That was a big leap, step up for you. You've been at IBM for a long time.

Ginni Rometty 1:06:56 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:06:57 This is, this is a big sort of leadership-... uh, like very impactful, large-scale leadership decisions.

Ginni Rometty 1:07:06 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:07:06 What was that like?

Ginni Rometty 1:07:07 So, you know, unlike in my career earlier where I said I was changing jobs and I said I wasn't comfortable, et cetera. So now here, fast forward 10 years, and I'm like, "Okay." Honestly, how I felt inside, on one hand, I did what I learned, like inventory what you know how to do. Like, you have some good strengths that could work here. The other part of me said, "Boy, this is really high profile." And I felt- and I can remember saying to someone, like, "This is gonna kill me or catapult. Probably nothing in between." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:07:39 And that wasn't terrifying to you? That was okay? You were okay with that kind of pressure?

Ginni Rometty 1:07:41 I was okay with that because I- I felt I knew enough, you know, like, these things I had re- And I'll tell you the one thing I felt I knew the best, um... Consultants of any- worth their weight, they really do care that they deliver for an end client and, and I felt I understood service to a client so well, that what it meant to really provide value. So, I knew we would have, like, something that I knew the PwC people, more than anything, wanted to deliver value to those clients they had, uh, next to them developing their people, that those were, like, the really two things. And that I could- and I also knew they felt they could do better if they had more technology, and, and we did. So, so there really was a reason, you know, that I could really believe in. So I authentically believed, back to that point, and I also felt I had lo- built some of those skills to be able to do that. But I wouldn't call it terrifying, but, but make no mistake, Lex, it was very hard. A- and it was- it turned out to be extremely successful. By the time we ended, it was worth 19 and a ha- well, at the time I stepped- I, I ran it for, oh goodness gracious-

Lex Fridman 1:08:51 (laughs)

Ginni Rometty 1:08:52 ... uh, quite a long time. I'm gonna say seven or eight, nine years.

Lex Fridman 1:08:55 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 1:08:55 And we were 19 and a half billion dollars. It made 2.7 billion in profit. It was very consequential to IBM.

Lex Fridman 1:09:02 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 1:09:03 But the fact that it was consequential is also very- I mean, there was a time as we moved through it, I, I, I, I, I can even remember it, um, we just weren't meeting the goals as fast as we should. And some of it was clients were like, "Oh, now you're IBM." So, I mean, some s- some things I knew would happen, but they happened so much faster. It'd be things like clients would say, "Oh, IBM cares about a quarter, so let's negotiate every quarter on these prices."

Lex Fridman 1:09:26 Right.

Ginni Rometty 1:09:26 And, you know, when they were private, they didn't have these issues.

Lex Fridman 1:09:30 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 1:09:30 Well, that had an impact on margins really fast. And, and so that ability-

Lex Fridman 1:09:34 So you picked up a lot of challenges?

Ginni Rometty 1:09:35 You pick them up right away and, and, and I thought, "Oh, boy, I mean, if I don't get this turned around, this is, this is really a problem." And, and the team learned a lot of lessons. I mean, I learned people I had to move out. That I learned that when people don't believe they can do something, they probably won't do it. So-

Lex Fridman 1:09:52 Interesting.

Ginni Rometty 1:09:53 ... you know, we wanted to run the business at a certain level that I, I really did have some great leaders, but they didn't really believe it could do that. And I finally had to come to terms with, if you don't really believe in something, you really aren't gonna probably make it happen at the end of the day. And so we would change that. We would have to actually get some more help to help us on doing so. And, but when then it turned, and I can remember the day that we started really getting the business to hum and start to- it was almost like, "Finally!" And I gave the team this little plaque, this little, uh, it was kind of corny paperweight thing.

Lex Fridman 1:10:24 Mm-hmm.

Ginni Rometty 1:10:24 And, um, and w- believe, I remember it was Thomas Edison, and he said, "Many of life's greatest failures are people who gave up right before they were going to be successful."

Lex Fridman 1:10:37 Yes.

Ginni Rometty 1:10:37 And it's so true. I mean, there was also a governor of, uh, Texas, s- who's passed, but she had said, someone said, "What's the secret of your success?" And, and she said, "It's passion and perseverance when everyone else would have given up."

Lex Fridman 1:10:51 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 1:10:51 And, and I- and I feel that's what that taught me. That taught me, like, you know, no matter how bad this gets, you are not giving up. And this- now you can't keep doing the same thing, like, the, uh, you know, "Doctor, this hurts." Well, then stop doing it. (laughs) You know, you can't keep doing the same thing. We had to keep changing until we found our right way to get the model to work right. And, uh, client work, we never, never had an issue and kept so many of the people. And now we are 25 years almost later and, uh, a number of them run parts of the IBM business still today. So it's, it's, it's that old, uh, Maya Angelou saying, when you say, "What do I remember?" Th- they'll say, "You won't remember the specifics of this, but you'll remember how you felt."

Lex Fridman 1:11:32 Yeah.

Ginni Rometty 1:11:32 And that's kind of how I feel- and I think they do too, the whole team does, of that- like, I'll get a- anniversary note still on that, (laughs) on that, you know, y- when you've been through something like that together with people.

Lex Fridman 1:11:42 So during the acquisition, the, the way you knew the people, it's the right team, are, are the ones that could believe that this, this, uh, consulting business can grow-

Ginni Rometty 1:11:52 Yeah, and, and I was lucky.

Lex Fridman 1:11:52 ... can integrate with IBM and all that?

Ginni Rometty 1:11:54 Yeah. I was lucky. Look, I- I did things that helped that. I mean, I knew that people joining us would feel more comfortable if they had people leading it that they recognized, et cetera. But, um, again, I learned. Those that didn't then, I eventually had to take, you know, some action out. But, but PWCC had a lot of