Kelsi Sheren: War, Artillery, PTSD, and Love | Lex Fridman Podcast #230

Lex Fridman 0:00 The following is a conversation with Kelsey Sherron, Canadian Forces veteran, artillery gunner, who served in Afghanistan at 18 years old and came home with severe PTSD. She went on to found Brass and Unity, which creates unique jewelry, large part of the proceeds from which go to help rehabilitate the lives, limbs, and mental health of veterans and first responders. She has a big personality, big heart, and an intense passion for life. So when our paths happened to cross, I knew we needed to talk. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now here's my conversation with Kelsey Sherron.

Lex Fridman 0:45 You mentioned that studying history had a big impact on you, and that your grandfather was a World War II vet. So people that have gone through World War II, in my family too, they don't seem to talk about it much. Like, the worse the tragedy, the less they talk about it.

Kelsi Sheren 1:00 I mean, that's understandable. I can respect that. But I don't think people fully understood the value in human stories over, over time, and sharing that. That certain civilizations don't have written language. The value in that being passed down is, is extraordinary, but we didn't really have that with the World War II vets, it seems like.

Lex Fridman 1:23 Well, th- they kind of want to protect you from the pain. Like, my, my grandfa- my grandmother went through Holodomor, which is the Ukrainian starvation of millions of people, and then obviously, uh, went through World War II with the Nazi occupation, and, uh, same on the grandfather's side, who, uh, uh, on my dad's side, grandfather fought in World War II. And they seemed to not want to talk about those experiences to protect you from the suffering, to protect you from the evil that they've experienced. Which is, um, sad because the lessons from that history are not then propagated through you. And also, there's something about the strength you carry with you knowing that that's in your blood, those great heroes are in your blood, and that suffering, overcoming that suffering is in your blood.

Kelsi Sheren 2:12 I would argue that's exactly correct. If you, if you have someone you know that comes from your lineage that has done something super gnarly, that's just been a badass in, in so many different ways, you wanna know about that person. You have that person's blood in you. That's important to acknowledge. And when that isn't shared, I feel like it's just a detriment to that individual.

Lex Fridman 2:35 What do you make of World War II in terms of history? Do you think about, uh, those kinds of wars where, uh, two times more civilians died than the number of, um, military personnel? So most of the war is basically just the death of civilians and the invasion of homes, the burning of homes, the bombing of homes, all of that.

Kelsi Sheren 2:56 World War II for me, I find that was the first experience where I became just obsessed with history. World War II really did it for me. Um, I'm not sure if it's because of the dramatization of film and, and TV and the way that our generation has looked at it, but for me, it was more than that. I felt a deep connection to it, and I still can't figure out why. Like a pull almost. Uh, people joke around about those past lives and those things or those connections, and there's something deeper within me that feels a pull towards that. And I'm, I'm not quite sure if, um, it's because I had family that, you know, escaped hungry once the Soviets came in, so thanks for that, um, or if it was because my grandfather served in it, or for whatever reason, I just, I have this pull to it. And so when you think about the mass casualty of the civilian population, that's very difficult for me to wrap my brain around after being in a war and seeing when you have a small subset of civilians die, how much of an impact that has on that community right there in just, in just a tiny area. So to, to try to wrap my brain around what happened in Europe and all across and, and all that, I really struggle with that, because I don't know that I can comprehend what that would truly mean to somebody if I, if I didn't experience it or, or see it for what it is. Does that make sense?

Lex Fridman 4:29 Yeah. But, uh, so first of all, you're right. A lot of people are drawn to World War II for different reasons. So one is Hitler and Stalin, trying to understand how it's possible to have that scale of evil, in, uh, very different flavors of evil. It's almost fascinating that human nature can allow for that. And then also it's fascinating that so many people can follow leaders like that with, with a pride and with a love of country.

Kelsi Sheren 4:57 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 4:57 And that's like, it's almost like this weird experiment. It's like, "Wow, I wonder if I'm the, the same, I'm made from the same, uh, cloth as those people." Like, would I be a good German if, uh, if I lived in Germany, uh, and was, you know, during the time of Hitler, would I believe that Germany has been done wrong? I'm Jewish by the way, which would, makes me a little bit more comfortable (laughs) talking about this.

Kelsi Sheren 5:23 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 5:24 Uh, uh, is would I, would I believe in the dream sold by a charismatic dictator who says that wrongs have been done and we need to correct those wrongs? Th- that, to me, is the compelling thing that draws me t- uh, to World War II, uh, the human nature question.

Kelsi Sheren 5:41 I would agree with you on that. I think there's a way to look at people like that. And at that time, there was no real... well, there wasn't a full understanding of the psyche the way that we're starting to. I mean, we still don't understand any of it, but it seems like the, you know, the time gap back then, there was no real understanding of...... sociopaths and narcissists and, you know, psychopaths, and really what those traits were, and I feel like you- you know, people will follow blindly if they're given a good enough reason. Well, if you have an individual who is ranting and screaming at the top of his lungs in the middle of these town squares, and he's getting this attention, it's human nature to want to understand and- and be a part of a group mentality. It's- it's human nature to want to fit in. And so, I don't know if it's more of people were, at the beginning were just, "This is the cool thing to do." Or if it was, they were genuinely terrified, or if there was an aspect that was like, "This guy is saying something that resonates with me." There- there could be a lot of different things. I think it's unfortunate that we didn't get to, or no one got to really, you know, examine this individual's brain and this person, and- and why they thought the way they thought. 'Cause I, that's always been the biggest thing for me is, I'm really curious about why people do what they do. Like, deeply, deeply curious about it.

Lex Fridman 7:07 I'm not sure who's more interesting, the people that follow Hitler or Hitler himself. S- so, I mean, that, the- the question that's coupled with that is, uh, would history roll out in similar ways even if there wasn't a Hitler? You know, it's- it's the people that created a Hitler or did Hitler create the events of World War II.

Kelsi Sheren 7:26 I think the people would be more interesting, in my opinion.

Lex Fridman 7:29 That seems to be the, um, that the charismatic leaders are all out there.

Kelsi Sheren 7:33 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 7:34 Uh, the failed artists, in the case of Hitler, they're all out there.

Kelsi Sheren 7:37 Right.

Lex Fridman 7:37 And it's just when there's this environment of anger and fear, charismatic leaders can take over-

Kelsi Sheren 7:44 Right.

Lex Fridman 7:44 ... and, uh, it doesn't matter if they're evil or good. It's like a roll of the dice, in terms of history-

Kelsi Sheren 7:51 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 7:51 ... what, uh, how evil, how truly insane they are. Like, uh, I think Stalin was much more cold and calculating. He wasn't as insane as Hitler. Hitler was legitimately insane, um, like especially later on in the war, where he would do irrational actions, I would say. So that- but that- that- that's like a weird roll of the dice. You could've gotten a totally different leader. Uh, the- the inva- (laughs) wanting to take over the entirety of Europe and then invading Russia, that's- that's like insanity.

Kelsi Sheren 8:23 Yeah, that, just even, just the- the first part of that, wanting to take over Europe, if you really think about the scale, if you really sit down and go, "He want," this one individual was like, "I want all of this." If you really sat down, and you were to sit down and put him and his traits that we know of into any sort of document nowadays that- that deems somebody a psychopath or a narcissist, this guy would set it on fire. There's, you know, he himself was so, I think so damaged, and he reminds me a lot of, um, people now who- who struggle to find their way. He reminds me a lot of angry individuals who are told no, either by women or by business or by whatever the sector they're in. He reminds me very much of that, like, ah, there, what's the word I'm looking for? Just that individual who is just like, "The world is shit and the- the world owes me everything." And just, it's that mentality. He really came from that, it seems like.

Lex Fridman 9:25 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 9:25 And when you foster that too long, you get that.

Lex Fridman 9:28 There's a book called, uh, what is it? Man from Underground by Dostoevsky. I might be misnaming the book, but it's about the bitterness of a man. It's like it breeds within his mind and- and it just grows-

Kelsi Sheren 9:40 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 9:41 ... that bitterness. I mean, we- we all have that sort of, uh, resenting of the world when you're- when you're younger, when... Y- you have a choice. When you fail, do you blame the world or do you hold, it's the Jocko thing, do you hold-

Kelsi Sheren 9:56 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 9:56 ... do you carry the responsibility of that and, uh, become a better man or woman because of that? That's- that's the decision. And in some se- I mean, unfortunately, (laughs) see that, because he took responsibility and leadership (laughs) which is insane.

Kelsi Sheren 10:12 I know, you can't-

Lex Fridman 10:12 (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 10:12 ... you can't say he wasn't a leader.

Lex Fridman 10:13 Yeah, you can't-

Kelsi Sheren 10:14 Shit.

Lex Fridman 10:15 So, it's not that he's a failure, he's not a pers- not a failure, but it's- it's- you can't say he's- he's powerless, did not take action. I think he's just basically a embodiment of the anger and the fear of people at the time. And, but the insanity of, uh, obviously many of my relatives, not just murdering them but putting them in camps and torturing them, but many of those people, Jewish people, were also some of the best scientists. The- the insanity (laughs) of murdering some of the best Germans-

Kelsi Sheren 10:46 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 10:46 ... uh, is, I, it makes no sense. But, so that's why it's fascinating to kind of look back at that time in history is like, and think, "Are these the same humans?" And also, "Are there echoes of that now?"

Kelsi Sheren 11:00 Yes.

Lex Fridman 11:01 And- and are we, is that going to happen again? Is there going to be a World War III this, in some other kind of way? Is there going to be some mass scale injustice in some other kind of way which, uh, we're not, uh, yet... Like, because of our blindness, uh, and maybe not learning the lessons of history will- will allow it to happen again. And- and then obviously, it's a very common thing to, whatever political leader you don't like, to call them Hitler. (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 11:29 Of course, which is-

Lex Fridman 11:30 (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 11:30 ... that- that, to me, I gotta- I gotta tell you, when somebody calls somebody Hitler, the weight behind that has been completely lost-

Lex Fridman 11:38 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 11:38 ... in this generation. This generation does not understand what that truly means to call someone Hitler or a Nazi.

Lex Fridman 11:47 And, uh, or

Lex Fridman 11:48 Stalin. Uh, to be honest, the, uh, the starvation is, I've just been talking to a lot of folks recently, especially like North Korea with-

Kelsi Sheren 11:55 Yes.

Lex Fridman 11:56 ... Ryugyong Park, starvation, and- and I remember from my grandmother, it wasn't, I mean, time and time again-... not having food to eat is the thing that people say is the worst.

Kelsi Sheren 12:08 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 12:08 Everything. It's way worse than murder. Not having food, and the places that takes your mind and the actions that forces you to do.

Kelsi Sheren 12:18 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 12:18 That's terrifying. And all of that seems very distant in our history.

Kelsi Sheren 12:22 Yeah, I love her. I watched that interview with her. She is... I want to talk to that woman so bad, because when she was on Joe and she sat there and said... Joe was like, "Do you... Have you done any therapy?" And she laughed. I was like, "Oh, that's my girl."

Lex Fridman 12:36 It's- it's such a fascinating... I mean, I would love for you to kind of talk to her and explore her mind, because we kind of explored her story.

Kelsi Sheren 12:43 Right.

Lex Fridman 12:44 And that's... There's power and an importance to her story, but it's so difficult to understand, like how does she become healthier and better, uh, even more so than she is already? She's- she's recovered quite a bit, you know, she's found herself quite a bit.

Kelsi Sheren 13:02 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 13:02 But I wonder, is she haunted?

Kelsi Sheren 13:05 You're saying questions I want to ask.

Lex Fridman 13:07 Yeah.

Kelsi Sheren 13:07 Like that's what I mean, because after being in a war, there are certain things, there are certain atrocities that you see that the ma-... It doesn't matter the therapy that you do. And I don't care what all the Special Ops guys say, like I know plenty of them that have a light switch and they turn it off and they can function, but I also know them when they've been out for 10 years. There's things that haunt people differently, but there's no way there's not something going on there deeply.

Lex Fridman 13:35 Yeah, but there's also s- extra levels of complexity in her case, because, um...

Kelsi Sheren 13:41 Of course.

Lex Fridman 13:42 I mean, this is what just looking at history of my own family is, she spent much of her early life loving the dictator, right? She-

Kelsi Sheren 13:53 Yeah. We like the water or something.

Lex Fridman 13:55 Yeah.

Kelsi Sheren 13:55 It's like, "We like water," or, "We like this," 'cause there is no, like, individual. Like when they said there was no-

Lex Fridman 14:00 Yeah.

Kelsi Sheren 14:00 ... love or anything.

Lex Fridman 14:01 But there is a love for the-

Kelsi Sheren 14:03 Just that individual.

Lex Fridman 14:04 ... for that individual. And so, I mean, it's like the ultimate abusive relationship.

Kelsi Sheren 14:09 Oh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 14:10 And, uh, but- but it's still love.

Kelsi Sheren 14:13 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 14:13 The exper-... Like, you don't know the alternative, so it's not even... it's complicated, because like how- I wonder if you truly explored it what you would find, because, uh, the trauma, much of her trauma I think comes from when she was escaping North Korea-

Kelsi Sheren 14:30 It's-

Lex Fridman 14:31 ... wh- and treatment by China. Um, it's like the-

Kelsi Sheren 14:34 And her mom-

Lex Fridman 14:35 ... the- the-

Kelsi Sheren 14:35 ... and what she had to witness within that and being helpless with that on her own.

Lex Fridman 14:39 Yeah. So it's like, evil m- men essentially abusing her, trading her, you know, and- and doing so nonchalantly, like it's part of the, just the way of- of life, that I wonder if she sees kind of... Yeah, it's- it's so complicated because childhood...

Kelsi Sheren 14:54 It would be normal to her because she didn't know any different.

Lex Fridman 14:57 It was normal to her. Exactly. And th- m- there's... Like a... I grew up poor, but I a- I never sensed that, because-

Kelsi Sheren 15:04 Because your parents didn't make you.

Lex Fridman 15:05 Well, b- and all- everyone else around was too.

Kelsi Sheren 15:08 Right.

Lex Fridman 15:08 And so you don't notice it. I mean, it- it's a cultural thing, so the way you grow up, you only start to notice it when you compare yourself to others, when you learn of the alternative, and that's the dark reality when you're abused. You, um... I wonder... (laughs) I mean, you truly un- begin to suffer in some kind of way when you understand that you were being abused. That- that's a dark kind of thought, that I wonder if you live your whole life just in that abuse, if you don't know better, that that's a sa- safer... That's like a... What's a better life, going, suffering and then learning that you were suffering or just suffering-

Kelsi Sheren 15:49 Suffering.

Lex Fridman 15:49 ... until your last days?

Kelsi Sheren 15:50 There's a, two ways to look at this. I'd argue on one side that suffering and suffering till you die, you know no different, so you can't have hope, you can't have this idea that there's better, and sometimes that's... Keep that in its box. But then if you have kind of what you have with Park where she, she knows now that there's different, she knows that there's better, then you run into those, what is the damage that has been done? What is going to be passed on as intergenerational trauma? I know she's a mom. So it's like, now you got to look long-term a little bit because now she's an influence on a child. And there's, there's a positive to looking at both, I would say. And I know that sounds horrible for the living in trauma your whole life and just not knowing any better, but there's... I don't know if that saves the brain and the body and just- just that overall or if it actually would be better, 'cause there's no way to really find that out, I don't think.

Lex Fridman 16:50 Yeah, I think... But the reality is when you give people hope and you make them realize that their suffering, you're putting a burden on them that's the first step on a long journey. And so... (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 17:01 Yes.

Lex Fridman 17:01 And obviously she, now that she knows about the suffering, she wants to make, uh, people in North Korea currently suffer less, and that's an admirable goal. It's-

Kelsi Sheren 17:11 It is.

Lex Fridman 17:11 It's- it's what we do to each other is try to like... When you see suffering in the world, you try to make it better. And en masse, that's probably, in the long arc of history, going to make for a, for a better world.

Kelsi Sheren 17:25 I'm hopeful at that idea for North Korea. I'm hopeful for that because you- you never want to leave individuals suffering when you know that they're actively suffering while you're just living your day-to-day life in the Western world just out grocery shopping and you see all this food and you know in the back of your mind... Like that interview fucked me up a little bit, I won't lie. Like and I had some of the girls in my office listen to it. They're just bawling, because there's... We're all parents, and there's this idea that not being able to feed our children, that, just the idea of that damages the psyche. It- it brings up the pain in the chest, like just the idea of it. And so going to the grocery store for about a week after that, I just remember standing there looking and just going...... fuck are we doing?

Lex Fridman 18:10 (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 18:11 But then there's that snap reality that comes into play and goes, "So how do we fix that? You gotta take on China." That's never gonna happen.

Lex Fridman 18:20 (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 18:21 And the reason-

Lex Fridman 18:22 Yeah.

Kelsi Sheren 18:22 ... that's not gonna happen, it's happening again. So Haqqani comes down through Afghanistan, Chinese are all through Afghanistan. Iran makes the deal with China for (laughs) the roadway to get the oil. Well, that's done in the blink of an eye without anyone knowing. There's no way. There's just so much at play with China, they control such a large aspect of our world, unfortunately, that to take and free North Korea, a drastic action would have to happen. And then your people would come in. It would be a mess.

Lex Fridman 18:54 What do you mean, "your people"? What do you mean, "your people"?

Kelsi Sheren 18:57 You mean your Russians?

Lex Fridman 18:58 (laughs) Did you hear what she said about Russians?

Kelsi Sheren 19:00 Did you hear what she says?

Lex Fridman 19:01 (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 19:01 Russians? I love Russians. You know what I didn't love?

Lex Fridman 19:03 Yeah.

Kelsi Sheren 19:04 The Russian recruiting video that came out. That shit was terrifying. Did you watch it?

Lex Fridman 19:08 No.

Kelsi Sheren 19:08 I told you about it and, of course, you didn't watch it.

Lex Fridman 19:10 I didn't watch it, I'm sorry.

Kelsi Sheren 19:10 Oh, shocker. Um, the USA put out a recruiting video.

Lex Fridman 19:15 Yes.

Kelsi Sheren 19:16 And then, like, a day or two later, Russia put one out. And the recruiting fr- video in the States was a animation of a, a female soldier-

Lex Fridman 19:26 Yeah.

Kelsi Sheren 19:26 ... with two moms, and she was gonna go change the world.

Lex Fridman 19:30 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 19:31 Right? Russia came out with one- (laughs)

Lex Fridman 19:35 (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 19:35 It's like, it's the, the character from, like, Rocky, essentially, and there are guys in the mud and just in the rain, just fucking doing push-ups, just pushing it out. They're just like, they see their boot, they're just, like, crushing things and I'm like, and it's all like in the deep Russian voice. I'm like, "Oh my God."

Lex Fridman 19:51 Yeah. Which one is better would you say? Which bothered you more?

Kelsi Sheren 19:55 What do you mean by bother? Specify.

Lex Fridman 19:58 So deception is a funny thing, 'cause when you're young and you're choosing to go to the military or not, it's not like you know, like, none of us know what the best trajectory for life is.

Kelsi Sheren 20:08 Right.

Lex Fridman 20:08 For many people, going to the military is a really, makes them incredible human beings.

Kelsi Sheren 20:13 Right.

Lex Fridman 20:13 Some of the best people in this world I know are soldiers. So it's, I'm not, I don't mean like it's somehow bad to go to the military. I think it's a great choice.

Kelsi Sheren 20:21 Oh, no, no.

Lex Fridman 20:21 But there is something... The honest truth is I just don't like marketing people. (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 20:27 Well-

Lex Fridman 20:28 And so this is essentially a marketing effort.

Kelsi Sheren 20:30 Yeah, it is a marketing effort.

Lex Fridman 20:31 And so which one do you like as a marketing effort better? (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 20:34 Russia. Ooh.

Lex Fridman 20:36 Okay.

Kelsi Sheren 20:36 Oof, yeah, I do-

Lex Fridman 20:37 There you go.

Kelsi Sheren 20:38 I do 'cause Canada doesn't... You know what our recruiting videos are? It's like, um, uh, I love it, they're the best. They're-

Lex Fridman 20:45 Sorry, eh?

Kelsi Sheren 20:46 Yeah. Oh fuck, here we go.

Lex Fridman 20:47 (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 20:47 It's starting. It's started, awesome. So Canada does these ones where it's like, um, it'll have a bunch of, like, soldiers doing movements, and then they'll, like, snip it together really quick. It'll be like, a navy one and then a guy jumping out of a plane, and then it'll be like an artillery, and then, like, an armored. Then it'll be like, "Join the Canadian forces today." And, like, that's like, their, their videos. It's so, it's like very marketable, very-

Lex Fridman 21:12 Yeah.

Kelsi Sheren 21:12 ... palatable to Canadians who don't really want war and who don't really acknowledge their military in the first place, and do everything they can to make sure that vets don't get any support when they come home. So they, I can see why that one is, uh, acceptable. What Russia did was meant to be more of an intimidation tactic, in my opinion. I like that style better though. I think we need harder, I need, I think we need people to be harder. I think it's acceptable and okay to say that our soldiers need to have a harder mindset, a stronger mindset, a better mentality, and mental health support going into the service, and a harder body. Because I know when you go to the US, I've also encountered plenty of soldiers that are 600 pounds. What are you gonna do?

Lex Fridman 21:59 So we should say that you, when you joined the military, you were in incredible shape, or not, maybe not incredible, but very good shape.

Kelsi Sheren 22:05 I was in incredible, no, I was in incredible shape. It was the best shape of my life.

Lex Fridman 22:07 Yeah.

Kelsi Sheren 22:08 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 22:08 So-

Kelsi Sheren 22:09 I'm okay with that.

Lex Fridman 22:09 (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 22:10 It's okay. I, you know what? I used to do sit-ups. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 22:13 Yeah.

Kelsi Sheren 22:13 My, like, no, I would do sit-ups in the morning when I was little, until I could see my si- like, I always had a six-pack because all I did was train. But like, if I couldn't, like, see it, I would just sit there in morning cartoons and just do sit-ups. And my mom and dad thought that was like normal, acceptable behavior.

Lex Fridman 22:30 Right. So if you had, like, Instagram back then, you'd be a David Goggins. You would be just, like, screaming-

Kelsi Sheren 22:33 Without the cursing. That cursing started once the military started.

Lex Fridman 22:36 Okay, got it. (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 22:38 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 22:38 (laughs) So I mean, the people should know, 'cause they probably already know, that you also competed in taekwondo.

Kelsi Sheren 22:43 Yep.

Lex Fridman 22:43 Like, you were an athlete of all kinds. I even saw rugby in there.

Kelsi Sheren 22:47 Yeah. I was, I was, I was good at rugby. I played that for seven, six years, I guess you could say, total. I think the worst injury I ever ended up having was I tore my right eyelid off. We were doing, uh, an exhibition game. I don't do exhibition games well. I don't do, like, for fun well. I don't do, like-

Lex Fridman 23:06 So you're very competitive?

Kelsi Sheren 23:07 No, not me.

Lex Fridman 23:09 So you're being funny.

Kelsi Sheren 23:11 Ah, there it is. He gets it. You see, he's not a, he's not a robot. What I was saying though to you was that-

Lex Fridman 23:18 (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 23:20 ... we did an exhibition game, and the team ahead was winning. The team we were playing was winning, which was annoying. And so there was an opportunity to take out a girl that was going one end of the field to the other, and she just kept hitting tries left, right, and center, 'cause she was fast. So I figured if I just aimed her up like she's a target, and I just run full force at her, 'cause she was really, she was a tall individual, if I just, if I do that, I'll take her out at the knees. So I did that, um, but that, what that resulted in was she put her tooth through her mouth guard and knocked out and didn't, just, she just stayed there. But when I stood up, I tore the right eyelid off and it was hanging from the inner corner.

Lex Fridman 24:00 (laughs) Yeah.

Kelsi Sheren 24:00 My mom was there 'cause Mom was my, Mom's my biggest fan.

Lex Fridman 24:05 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 24:05 And-

Lex Fridman 24:05 She was supportive of this?

Kelsi Sheren 24:06 Oh, she's supportive of everything. She didn't miss a game. She didn't miss an anything.... and, um, I stood up and I kind of turned around, and we had already had a girl break her nose that day. So, she was on the sideline with her nose sideways and just bloody. My mom was like, "I'll take her to the emergency after once the game's over." And so I turned around and looked at her, and she just, she almost vomited on the spot. And I was like, "What's wrong?" She's like, "Don't move your eyelids off me." I'm like, "But I can see." Like, I was trying to blink.

Lex Fridman 24:32 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 24:32 But, like, it was just down, so I could just constantly see... (laughs) She's like, "We're just, we're just gonna go to the emergency. We're just gonna go there now."

Lex Fridman 24:39 Was there blood?

Kelsi Sheren 24:40 Yeah, there was lots of it. But I, like, I couldn't really tell.

Lex Fridman 24:43 Okay. Were you, were you okay with blood at that point?

Kelsi Sheren 24:46 Yeah. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 24:47 I mean, I guess, 'cause you did Taekwondo and all that.

Kelsi Sheren 24:48 I've always been okay with blood.

Lex Fridman 24:48 Yeah.

Kelsi Sheren 24:49 I didn't get knocked out very often. I didn't really... When I was younger, in TaeKwonDo I was really good.

Lex Fridman 24:53 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 24:54 I only lost a handful of times. So, when I did lose, that was bad.

Lex Fridman 24:58 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 24:58 Um, but I never had, like, a broken nose or a lot of blood on my fa- like, nothing like that, really. So, nothing freaked me out too much.

Lex Fridman 25:07 Was there aggression there or just purely com- competition over skill?

Kelsi Sheren 25:12 A mix of both. I was... This was right after, not too long after my coach went to prison for statutory rape. Um, and that was like, how you talk about Park talking about how that was... Like, she knew love because of that person. That person was like a god to me. And so when that happened, I was just an angry individual from that point on. So, there was competition and aggression mixed in there.

Lex Fridman 25:38 Oh, like it was betrayal? That, that there's this somebody that is, was a symbol of love for you was, could also be a very bad person?

Kelsi Sheren 25:46 I used to eat, sleep, and breathe whatever that man said from four years old on. I lived with my coaches at a point so I could train that much. I, I helped look after their daughter. I, I was at the club 24/7. It, just the idea that somebody could do something like that, yeah, that really messed

Kelsi Sheren 26:04 me up.

Lex Fridman 26:05 Where were you on, uh, 9/11?

Kelsi Sheren 26:10 I was 11, and I was in my parents' basement. And-

Lex Fridman 26:15 Okay. In, uh, where?

Kelsi Sheren 26:16 Ontario.

Lex Fridman 26:17 In Ontario, Canada.

Kelsi Sheren 26:19 Ontario, Canada.

Lex Fridman 26:20 Wh- what did you think of 9/11 at that age from Canada? Did it have an impact on you in terms of, uh, changing the, um, the level of evil you thought is there in the world today?

Kelsi Sheren 26:35 Not initially. I remember it really vividly. I have a decent memory for certain things, it seems like. Stuff like that, I stick with really well. Um, I remember watching it. I was sitting on the couch, and, um, my mom, my mom called my dad, 'cause my, my parents are truck drivers. So, my dad was on the road, if I'm not mistaken, and he would go in and out of cities all the time, and I think he was on the East Coast. So, my mom was like a little panicky. So, she c- she tried to get a hold of him on the, I think she, at the time, it was like, beepers and, um... Yeah. So, he would get a beep. He would go to a payphone and call us. And he was fine, and, um, I remember my mom being like really upset, and I couldn't quite grasp why she was so upset. I knew something really bad had happened. It's when I then saw the second plane go into the tower, and I remember her just, like, the stereotypical, like, hand over her mouth, and she just felt sick, and she just was so confused. And I knew it was bad, but I didn't fully grasp it. We went to school that day, and they had talked about it briefly. You could hear the teachers kind of reminiscing about it. There was a point the, that week that, all of a sudden, all of the children who were from a Middle Eastern family were not at the school. I just remember them saying, like, "Their, a lot of people aren't coming to school." But it was, it was in particular. I think parents were afraid once it got out that it was of a certain, um, group. They were afraid for their own kids. And fair enough, I mean, y- you never know. You don't know. And, um, I knew it impacted me enough that I did write... I remember, I, the school was doing a memorial for it, and I remember they as- I wrote a poem.

Lex Fridman 28:17 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 28:17 And a reporter was there, and I read it on air. That's, like, I remember, like... It was, it was like, it was a very short one, but I remember I, like, wanted to do something, but I didn't know why or for, for what reason. I just, I knew I wanted to do something to honor it, but I didn't, I couldn't grasp why.

Lex Fridman 28:34 You eventually went to Afghanistan.

Kelsi Sheren 28:36 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 28:38 D- did that begin to plant the seed of thinking about conflict in the world?

Kelsi Sheren 28:44 It's a good question. I've never thought about it that in depth. I mean, I've done 12 years of therapy. You think that would have come up, Dr. Pasi, but apparently not.

Lex Fridman 28:51 (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 28:52 We'll work on it though.

Lex Fridman 28:53 I mean, when did, uh, like, when did the idea of war start entering your mind?

Kelsi Sheren 28:58 Late high school, I think it was for me. Um, I was... I finished high school at 17. I moved away and went to college. I went to Algonquin College 'cause I wasn't smart enough to get into Ottawa U. So, I was like, "Well..." (laughs) "Algonquin she is." Uh, I just wanted to play sports, and frankly, I wanted away from my small town that I was living in. I went through, like, a bad high school breakup as a kid, and you know that, where you think that's, like, the love of your life, and you just can't bear to be anywhere near anybody. And so I, I moved away as fast as I possibly could. And I didn't grasp it still at that point.

Lex Fridman 29:35 Love and heartbreak. Okay. Why did you become a soldier? Why did you want to become a soldier?

Kelsi Sheren 29:45 My parents told me from an early age, they always figured I would either be a cop. I would do... They didn't think military, but they thought it would be, like, a type A personality, possibly carry a gun situation. And, um, I'd never hunted before. We'd never had guns in our house. I was never exposed to weapons of any kind. If anything, it was, it was the opposite. We just...

Lex Fridman 30:06 Hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 30:07 All the hunters on the property, like, all the deer would come to our property, and all the hunters would be-

Lex Fridman 30:11 (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 30:11 No, I'm s- I'm not... My mom would put salt licks out so that they wouldn't get killed.

Lex Fridman 30:14 Yeah. Your property was the safe space for the deer.

Kelsi Sheren 30:16 Yeah, it was 17 acres of forest, and they just-

Lex Fridman 30:20 Yeah.

Kelsi Sheren 30:20 We had two turkeys that used to walk up and down the driveway every day.

Lex Fridman 30:23 (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 30:23 We had bears in there. Nobody bothered them. And so-There was no aspect of, like, "I wanna go kill shit." That was not, like, a thing. I had no idea I wanted to take anybody off the face of the earth or anything.

Lex Fridman 30:35 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 30:35 I went to school, and because I'm a history person, I... My parents has always, always made it, uh, really important that Remembrance Day is the thing in our life. So, that's Veterans Day for you, so it's November 11th. And it's you go, you honor. W- I, I don't care if you don't wanna go, I don't care if it's raining, you go. And so, I went to the Remembrance Day ceremony in Ottawa that year, which was... It's our capital, which is... Yeah. It's our capital and it's really small, and so I went. But I took the bus, and I was on the bus back to Algonquin. And I met a lady who was like, a World War II vet, really old lady. She had an Air Force uniform on, and just, like, this row of medals. And I mean, I think you can tell by our limited two extreme interactions we've had over the short period of time, I'm curious and I'll just ask you.

Lex Fridman 31:28 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 31:29 And so, I just got up and talked to her, and just started talking to her. And she didn't say, like... I, I don't remember exactly her words, but she'd served. She was one of the first females to fly, and, you know, all, all of these...

Lex Fridman 31:42 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 31:42 ... kind of things that stuck in my head. And we just kinda kept talking, and I missed my stop. And then I finished talking to her, and I got back on the bus and went back to the college. And walked into my, uh, my small apartment where I had two roommates, these two guys I went to high school with. One of them, I went to high school with, one was from out of town. And I, I just didn't like what I was... I wasn't happy. I wasn't doing what I wanted to do, and I didn't know what I wanted to do, truthfully. Something just said, "Why don't you join the army?" Like, in myself, my, my self-talk was like, "Let's just join the military. Let's do it."

Lex Fridman 32:19 Are you, in general, somebody that just follows the gut? Like, when your heart tells you something, you go with it?

Kelsi Sheren 32:25 For the most part, as... Because I've figured out, at least now I've figured out, what parts I could... Like, what feeling I can trust and which one I can't. Which one's anxiety versus which one's my actual intuition talking.

Lex Fridman 32:37 So, why did you sign up to be an artillery gunner?

Kelsi Sheren 32:39 Because they wouldn't let me be infantry.

Lex Fridman 32:42 I mean, is it... (laughs) Why, why would you wanna be infantry?

Kelsi Sheren 32:48 (sighs)

Lex Fridman 32:48 I mean, that's... You're, you're, you're, you're naming a lot of dangerous activities.

Kelsi Sheren 32:53 Yeah, but that wasn't a thought in my mind at the time. My idea was, if I was gonna do this, and I was gonna put myself through the bullshit and the training and all of the hell, and the push-ups and getting, blah, blah, blah, screamed at, I wanted to do something that I know was actually going to be affecting something. And what I knew was making change or effecting or on the front lines was infantry, artillery, or armored. So, I was like, "One of those."

Lex Fridman 33:13 Can you explain the difference, infantry, artillery, and armored?

Kelsi Sheren 33:17 Do you want, like, the layman's term, or do you want me to actually explain, explain?

Lex Fridman 33:20 (laughs) Well, listening to your conversation with Jocko especially, I love how you get into details.

Kelsi Sheren 33:24 Okay, so let's detail this then. Okay.

Lex Fridman 33:27 Okay.

Kelsi Sheren 33:27 So, infantry is your frontline, door-kicking, you know, blasting the door open, running in, "Get the fuck on the ground, just da-da-da-da-da."

Lex Fridman 33:36 (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 33:36 They're the guys that, you know, they double tap you in the face, and they show up in the middle of the night and put a barrel in your head. Like, those are the guys that are sleeping in the trenches, that are eating MREs, who are being shot at, who are being blown up, who are doing the dirty work and not sleeping, and carrying the 100-pound pack, and, and are side-by-side with your buddies in the trenches. I wanted that. That. They said I was too small for that. So, then I-

Lex Fridman 34:01 You are, sorry to interrupt, you are, are, what, too small under 100 pounds?

Kelsi Sheren 34:05 Um, at the time, I was about 103, and I'm, I'm five foot, like, on a... If you roll my back out, and like, I really... Get, just try, I'm, I'm al- I'm five foot. At the time though, I think, uh, my, my license said 411, so...

Lex Fridman 34:19 So, you were too small...

Kelsi Sheren 34:21 Too small.

Lex Fridman 34:22 ... for infantry?

Kelsi Sheren 34:23 Yeah, they just as- like... There was no mandate at which they said you can't be, but they said, "You know, we don't wanna put you through training that you're gonna fail out of, and then have to recourse you, and then find a new job for you, and..." W- they wanna try to... If this is what you're going in for, they wanna have you follow through that path. So then, there was armored, which are your tanks. So, that's your movie like Fury, where you're... Tank battles and, which we don't really do anymore, but you're rolling around in tanks, you got guys in the back, you're either a driver or you're a turret gunner, which I would've enjoyed. But the idea of being in a closed metal box, something about it made me panic. So I was like, "Maybe not for me."

Lex Fridman 35:02 Oh, there's, of course, power to that kind of, uh, big gun.

Kelsi Sheren 35:07 Well, that's why I went for the bigger one.

Lex Fridman 35:08 Okay. By the way, I think Russia leads the world in number of tanks. They're still... It's very like, uh, what is it? Alpha demonstration of like-

Kelsi Sheren 35:17 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 35:17 ... force. Like, "Look, we have the largest number of tanks."

Kelsi Sheren 35:20 You know what takes tanks out though?

Lex Fridman 35:22 What?

Kelsi Sheren 35:22 Some gasoline, some old batteries, and a wire.

Lex Fridman 35:25 Yeah, but tanks still look badass.

Kelsi Sheren 35:27 They look great, but they don't last.

Lex Fridman 35:29 But so much of the military, like we said with the recruiting videos-

Kelsi Sheren 35:32 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 35:32 ... it's a display of power versus an actual im- uh, implementation of power.

Kelsi Sheren 35:36 Fair.

Lex Fridman 35:37 Okay. Artillery. So, I'm doing my best here. Yeah, I don't even know what double tap means, which you said earlier. It means-

Kelsi Sheren 35:43 So, it's... Double tap is like-

Lex Fridman 35:44 ... two shots to the face?

Kelsi Sheren 35:45 ... two shots to the face.

Lex Fridman 35:45 Why two?

Kelsi Sheren 35:47 To be sure.

Lex Fridman 35:48 Okay. All right.

Kelsi Sheren 35:49 You guys... Uh, the taxpayers pay for the ammo, it's fine.

Lex Fridman 35:52 But you don't wanna do three 'cause that's wasting the ammo?

Kelsi Sheren 35:53 Well, that's... No, that's a waste.

Lex Fridman 35:55 Okay. Double tap to the face. There's so much awesome terminology here, or, uh, gruesome terminology, depending

Lex Fridman 36:01 on your perspective.

Kelsi Sheren 36:02 Help us.

Lex Fridman 36:02 Okay, so artillery.

Kelsi Sheren 36:03 Yeah. So, that's the hand of God.

Lex Fridman 36:06 (laughs) Sorry.

Kelsi Sheren 36:08 No, I... (laughs)

Lex Fridman 36:10 I think that's, that's intensely, uh, romanticized version, but okay.

Kelsi Sheren 36:14 It is.

Lex Fridman 36:14 Artillery, the hand of God. So-

Kelsi Sheren 36:16 'Cause it will reach out and touch you from wherever we want. It's like, it's like F, um, F18 pilots or bombers. They'll... You won't know they're there until they're there. And so, for artillery-... I, I really, honestly didn't think artillery would be a fit for me. I didn't know much about it. They were just like, "These are what you can pick from." And I was like, "I'll go here." So, in World War II, they used much closer artillery. So, it's the ro- we're called the Royal Canadian Horse Artillery, 'cause the Queen made us royal. So, Canadian Artillery. And, um, we, we shoot these rounds. When you're in training, you shoot smaller, smaller ammunition. They're about 40 pounds. They go, I'm gonna get this wrong, 20K, 20 kilometers, so whatever that is in your mile things.

Lex Fridman 37:03 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 37:03 And, um, they have a casing on them and, uh, they're much easier, they're easier to handle. The guns are smaller. You need less people for them. They're basically what you train on nowadays. It's not what we use overseas. What we use overseas, now those things are beautiful. Those are just a sheer work of... Uh, the engineering behind them just makes my heart skip a beat.

Lex Fridman 37:25 Yeah, the engineering on modern guns is amazing. So, are we talking about machine guns here?

Kelsi Sheren 37:29 No, you're talking about-

Lex Fridman 37:29 So, like fully automatic?

Kelsi Sheren 37:30 No. You're talking about an artillery gun. So, what it is, it's a 155 millimeter Howitzer that shoots ups to, up to 40 kilometers accurately, 45 unrecorded, and it shoots 100-pound round.

Lex Fridman 37:43 Oh, okay.

Kelsi Sheren 37:46 Hand of God.

Lex Fridman 37:47 So, that, but there, there is still precision?

Kelsi Sheren 37:50 Accurate as hell.

Lex Fridman 37:51 Accurate, okay.

Kelsi Sheren 37:52 Accurate if the people behind it that are shooting it and aiming it are accurate.

Lex Fridman 37:56 Okay. Uh, so (laughs) , so how, at which stage of the warfare do they come in? Are they saving you?

Kelsi Sheren 38:03 No.

Lex Fridman 38:03 Like, say a bunch of people get, uh, raided. A bunch of the sole infantry get raided, and then the artillery saves them, or are they the first line of attack, or what, where are they? Where, where does the art- artillery go? Like, the hand of God presumes-

Kelsi Sheren 38:16 'Cause it reaches the-

Lex Fridman 38:16 ... they're helping.

Kelsi Sheren 38:17 Yeah, yeah. That's, well, that's it. So, depending on the operation or whomever is running it, or how they want it done, sometimes if they just know there's targets, they'll use us, you know, high value targets. So, we have this round, it's called the Excalibur round. It costs about half a million dollars per round. It comes in a special tube that is l- like, sealed and locked, and you have to get permission from Ottawa to shoot it. And it's only used for VIP targets. So like, we have VIP for everyone. And it will, it's GPS-guided, it's rocket-propelled, and when you fire it, it will... If, if this is a wall, and somebody's standing on this side of it, will hit you right there. We won't touch that wall. It will hit you pinpoint. It'll go right through whatever, concrete, whatever, and then, it will destroy.

Lex Fridman 39:06 So, it's basically, uh, the same thing as being a sniper, but with a much more damaging weapon.

Kelsi Sheren 39:12 We don't use that round often. I think it's only been used a handful of times max in Afghanistan that I'm aware of. Again, I haven't, I wasn't there from 2009 until '21, but I, I know people that still deployed in that, in those units, and I don't know that it was used very often. But the regular rounds, so there's HE, there's LOOM. So, HE is high explosive. There's LOOM. You shoot that, it explodes in the sky, it lights up the sky for the infantry below.

Lex Fridman 39:38 Oh.

Kelsi Sheren 39:38 Um, and then there's shrapnel rounds that will explode in the sky, and then shrapnel just rains down hell on you. HE is what you use normally, in my... I'm trying to say this right, because I, I know people squawked at me about some of the stuff on Jocko, so I'm trying to be very accurate. In my experience, we used HE rounds to wipe people off the face of the Earth when the infantry needed us. So, we would get a call at any time, and there's always two guns together, so you never, you never go solo gun ever. If you are, it's, there's, it's sketchy and there's a, bad shit's happening.

Lex Fridman 40:12 Can you explain that? So, there's two gun, two people, two guns?

Kelsi Sheren 40:15 No. Two guns with each gun troop. So, each gun troop has five to seven people running a gun at all times.

Lex Fridman 40:20 Oh, wow. Okay.

Kelsi Sheren 40:21 It takes a lot of people to run one of those guys.

Lex Fridman 40:22 How much electronics is there?

Kelsi Sheren 40:24 The GPS, like the computer system that's on it itself, I never ran that much, but it is completely technologically... It's GPS-guided.

Lex Fridman 40:32 Okay.

Kelsi Sheren 40:32 All you have to do is literally type in the coordinates. Then you've got the two big, um, there's a, there's a technical word, word for it, but basically wheels.

Lex Fridman 40:41 (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 40:41 And one does the trajectory, you know, you do your-

Lex Fridman 40:43 Right, right. Yes.

Kelsi Sheren 40:44 ... and you're just kind of doing this, and you're watching, the watching it, and once you hit your target, that's, you know it'll tell you that's where you need to hit.

Lex Fridman 40:50 Do you know if there's any, like, AI stuff, like computer vision, like, uh, where there's cameras and they help you target using, like, all different kinds of cameras to see through, like, the fog, all those kinds of things?

Kelsi Sheren 41:04 No. We use, um, the FOO, which are forward observation offi- officers, which are an artillery individual that is embedded with an infantry unit.

Lex Fridman 41:14 Oh, wow, okay.

Kelsi Sheren 41:14 They call from the front, give us their grid coordinates-

Lex Fridman 41:18 Okay.

Kelsi Sheren 41:18 ... and basically say like, "Don't drop this on us."

Lex Fridman 41:20 Got it. So, well, you know when not to sh- which parts not to shoot?

Kelsi Sheren 41:24 Correct.

Lex Fridman 41:24 And then, the r-

Kelsi Sheren 41:25 As long as no one moves.

Lex Fridman 41:27 (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 41:27 Don't move, stay still. But you can hear it coming.

Lex Fridman 41:30 Yeah.

Kelsi Sheren 41:31 But you can't hear it until it's too close. So like, when I went... Sorry, go ahead. You were gonna say something?

Lex Fridman 41:34 No. What's, I was gonna say, what's the experience on the other, like, what does feel like to be maybe infantry or-

Kelsi Sheren 41:42 Underneath it?

Lex Fridman 41:43 ... underneath the artillery?

Kelsi Sheren 41:45 Well, I, I had the rare opportunity to do that, and I have a video I'll show you after. It's terrifying, (laughs) 'cause I know the people that were shooting it, and I know them personally, and I know what they're like as humans, and for the most part, they're dialed, but you get the odd duck where you're like, I've seen people have an ND, which is a negligent discharge? You basically get charged for it. You get in a lot of trouble 'cause you can blow people up. And I, it, like, accidents happen. And so, I know accidents can happen in stressful situations, and when I was with the Brits, we had to call Danger Close Artillery. And when it goes over top of you, it sounds like thunder and lightning. So, you fire it, and it's not the stereotype that you hear in World War II where it kind of like that (whistles) .... it's more of, like, a crackle.

Lex Fridman 42:33 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 42:34 And then you just hear, like, a whiz, and it ... Shit just goes everywhere. It's loud. It shakes the ground. It shakes you. It ... You feel it.

Lex Fridman 42:45 Okay. I- is there some more words you can put to, like, the experience of what it's like to be i- in the heat of, of battle there? So, what is I ... Is there literally? Is it hot? Is it, uh-

Kelsi Sheren 42:57 Are you talking about being under it or shooting at it?

Lex Fridman 42:59 Un- under it.

Kelsi Sheren 43:00 Oh, yeah. It ... 55 degree heat. You're, you know that you're waiting for it to be called. You feel an overwhelming excitement to start because, for me, I'd never been under it. So, I was like, "Okay." I had my camera ready, like I was a kid at a candy store, and I'm like, "I wanna watch this happen." And once you hear the crackle, I got really fearful. My anxiety kicked up significantly. I g- I got to the point where I got numb. Like I was ... My nerves were on overdrive so much, that like my body would go like numb. Like I could move, but like my nerves were numb, if that makes sense.

Lex Fridman 43:36 What, what were the nerves like? Are we talking about fear, or is it just-

Kelsi Sheren 43:39 No.

Lex Fridman 43:40 ... a- an- anxious excitement?

Kelsi Sheren 43:42 Anxious excitement, hopeful that they wouldn't blow it up on us, and-

Lex Fridman 43:46 Okay.

Kelsi Sheren 43:46 ... there was this ... There was this excitement that's hard to describe, because you don't want to be excited that you're dropping bombs on people. But when you just saw their faces and they're shooting at you, there's this overwhelming feeling of, "Got you, motherfucker." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 44:03 Yeah.

Kelsi Sheren 44:03 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 44:05 Well, we'll talk about that, 'cause that, that's such a difficult thing about wars. You forget that it, it's other human beings.

Kelsi Sheren 44:12 Yeah, you do.

Lex Fridman 44:13 Because those other human beings are doing really bad things to you. And so, the very basic anger takes over. Um, hate can take over.

Kelsi Sheren 44:22 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 44:23 And then also just the excitement of almost like video game-like, mm, you know, aspect of war, like sport. It's, it's like sport that all of those elements are all baked in. And it's, it's hard to be philosophical in that situation, it seems like.

Kelsi Sheren 44:40 I've never played video games, so I can't compare it to that, but like from, from like a sports perspective, yeah, I could, I could argue that. Like, I felt like we won there for a second. And it's, it's not just like a heat from outside. It's like this radiation within you that is something I've never felt since.

Lex Fridman 44:59 You, uh, just to take a small step back to the weapons training-

Kelsi Sheren 45:03 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 45:03 ... what oth- what kind of guns did you train on? Because you also mentioned a rocket launcher.

Kelsi Sheren 45:08 I love Karl Groshots. God.

Lex Fridman 45:10 What are those? What, what are those Karl G-

Kelsi Sheren 45:12 Karl Gs?

Lex Fridman 45:14 What, what's that? What's a, uh, what's it like?

Kelsi Sheren 45:16 What's a Karl G? (laughs)

Lex Fridman 45:16 My only experience with a rocket launcher is from the movie Commando with Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Kelsi Sheren 45:21 Oh yeah, and we've all discussed that I haven't seen that yet, and I've heard about it, and people have made me tell ... Yeah, I know.

Lex Fridman 45:25 I feel like you haven't seen a single movie that's relevant to war or military, because every time anyone brings it up, (laughs) you say you haven't seen it.

Kelsi Sheren 45:33 I don't have time to watch movies, Lex.

Lex Fridman 45:34 It's great. Platoon. You haven't seen Platoon, which is, um-

Kelsi Sheren 45:37 You're the scientist. How do you have the time?

Lex Fridman 45:40 I'm not a scientist. I just play one on TV.

Kelsi Sheren 45:42 Oh. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 45:43 Okay.

Kelsi Sheren 45:43 Sure.

Lex Fridman 45:44 So, uh, what ... Can you talk about the rocket launcher-

Kelsi Sheren 45:47 Karl Gs. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 45:48 ... uh, and maybe, uh, any other-

Kelsi Sheren 45:49 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 45:49 ... eng- for both engineering, actually ... To me, those guns are very interesting from an eng- engineering perspective too.

Kelsi Sheren 45:55 Well, they sh- they should be. They're fascinating when you take them apart, and you see how small the parts get down to, and how, how necessary every single little piece is to make that thing run. And even without the tiniest little BB smaller than a piece on there, an artillery gun might not run. So, we were trained on Karl Gs, um, I think they're called M72s, which are disposable rocket launchers. I'll back up. Karl Gs are around ... I don't know the exact millimeter of the round. It's been a while since I shot them. We only did those in training. But essentially, it takes m- most people, one person can fire it, you know, effectively hold it and fire it. It takes another person to load it.

Lex Fridman 46:34 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 46:34 So, you put it onto your shoulder, and it weighs, I would ... I don't know, 30 pounds, 40 pounds? I-

Lex Fridman 46:39 Oh, wow.

Kelsi Sheren 46:40 ... can't remember. It's been a minute. It's been a minute.

Lex Fridman 46:42 But one person can carry it?

Kelsi Sheren 46:43 Oh. Well, yeah.

Lex Fridman 46:45 Okay.

Kelsi Sheren 46:46 Are there-

Lex Fridman 46:46 I don't know. It just seems like a rocket launcher's a pretty, uh, intense kind of device that just-

Kelsi Sheren 46:53 It for sure is. I mean, it's ... The diameter. I can't even tell you the diameter. They, they're about that big. I mean-

Lex Fridman 46:59 And it goes on your shoulder, and it's-

Kelsi Sheren 47:00 It goes on your shoulder, and then it has a little sight that pops out, that's almost like plastic-like, which is kind of funny, 'cause it reminds me of like the, uh, little, um, green army men.

Lex Fridman 47:10 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 47:11 It just... I just felt so flimsy to me.

Lex Fridman 47:13 Yeah.

Kelsi Sheren 47:13 I was like, "This is hilarious." And then another person stands behind you and opens the hatch. And so, there's this, there's these two, um, levers, and you just kinda open it. And then the back end, which is flared, so it's just a tube, and then it's flared. That will open it and drop down, and you load a round into that, and then you load it back up.

Lex Fridman 47:32 Got it.

Kelsi Sheren 47:33 And you're never supposed to stand behind it, because the blast behind it will kill you. It's ... Yeah. But in my case, when I fired it, it was me and another individual. Um, I wanna say, it wasn't Sarah Pellegrin, but it was another girl that was smaller, and the person is supposed to wrap around your waist, and tuck low and hold your stability in. We were just aiming at tanks that day, and they were just concrete, um, heads, so they would just either ... They would hit and bounce off, or whatever. And so, when my sergeant saw that, he just kinda looked at both of us and was like, "Nah, I'm just gonna ..." And he got real low and just like wrapped-

Lex Fridman 48:10 (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 48:11 ... both of us. (laughs) And then we'd fire it, and it feels like you're getting punched in the side of the head on repeat by Jocko.

Lex Fridman 48:20 Yeah.

Kelsi Sheren 48:20 It ... You lose all your hearing. You just ... Like, just, ugh, snot comes outta your nose, and you're just kind of discombobulated for a minute.

Lex Fridman 48:29 (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 48:29 It's a real mind fuck.

Lex Fridman 48:32 Is there, (laughs) is there other, uh, any other kinda guns that, um-... in, at that time, because you were new to this, you having shot guns when you were younger, that were really impressive to you in, in the training process?

Kelsi Sheren 48:44 All of them, because I'd n- sh- ... I've never fired a weapon. So, we had the C7s, which are like your M16s, I believe. Um, the long barrel. The cute thing about those is when I have that slung, my barrel drags on the ground.

Lex Fridman 48:56 Huh.

Kelsi Sheren 48:57 So, (laughs) that's fun. And they shoot, uh, you know, your 762 or your 556 round. I loved that. I preferred the, um, the C8, which was a short barrel, which is what the SF guys use. Not because it's cooler looking, which it obviously is, but because it was functional for my body height-

Lex Fridman 49:14 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 49:14 ... and it didn't drag on the ground when I ran. I loved those. They're your personal weapon. Being an artillery gunner, if you're not an officer, at least in our unit, you didn't get a side, a side piece. Ha.

Lex Fridman 49:24 (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 49:25 I didn't have a side piece, Lex. Um, so I never had, uh, a handgun of any type. I fired those in training. You can't get over that side piece comment. Look at you.

Lex Fridman 49:34 Uh, I was gonna say, I know what a side piece is. You don't have to explain it to me. But, but, but the-

Kelsi Sheren 49:38 But you're single, so how do you even have a side piece if you don't have a main piece?

Lex Fridman 49:41 The joke, the joke would be the fact, eh, that we have a total misunderstanding of what side piece is. Okay, great, so you didn't have a side piece as a non-officer.

Kelsi Sheren 49:49 (laughs) Right. So, I never fired those much. We did grenades in training.

Lex Fridman 49:52 Oh, cool.

Kelsi Sheren 49:53 Yeah, grenades are fun. I love grenades. I have a massive one tattooed on me. I, I have them all over my office.

Lex Fridman 49:58 How does a grenade work?

Kelsi Sheren 50:00 There's the spoon and the pin. So, the s- the pin holds the spoon in place. When you pull that pin, the firing mechanism inside, as long as that, the spoon is up against it, it won't fire. As soon as that spoon goes, I believe it causes a reaction on the inside, and you've got about five seconds to check it. You'd be better to ask that question, too.

Lex Fridman 50:21 D-... I don't mean to get philosophical on this.

Kelsi Sheren 50:22 No, you're not. You don't have to be.

Lex Fridman 50:23 But there's something about a grenade, 'cause you're essentially committing suicide, unless you get rid of the thing. There's something like-

Kelsi Sheren 50:33 Or if you're unlucky and it just goes off when you pull the pin-

Lex Fridman 50:35 Right.

Kelsi Sheren 50:35 ... which has happened to tons of people.

Lex Fridman 50:37 So, it just feels like a very kind of leap... Uh, it's a, it's a dangerous leap into the abyss every time you (laughs) use the thing.

Kelsi Sheren 50:45 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 50:45 'Cause when you shoot a gun, like, the gun is much less likely to malfunction, in terms of, like, all the possible ways it can go wrong.

Kelsi Sheren 50:52 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 50:52 It just seems a grenade is, like-

Kelsi Sheren 50:55 Primitive, almost.

Lex Fridman 50:56 Yeah, it's primitive. It's like, it's also real, like in the way that, like, a bar fight, uh, like, being punched in the face is real.

Kelsi Sheren 51:02 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 51:02 It's like you're here with a weapon of destruction. It's just you and, and the thing.

Kelsi Sheren 51:07 (laughs) Yeah.

Lex Fridman 51:07 And you have to get rid of it. I don't know. Is that, is that terrifying to you? Like, do p- do people still use grenades in, uh, warfare?

Kelsi Sheren 51:13 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 51:14 Okay.

Kelsi Sheren 51:15 Yeah, those are fantastic. The Taliban were throwing them over the wall at the airport in Kabul.

Lex Fridman 51:19 (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 51:19 People use them all the time. 'Cause when you're in Afghanistan, if you're in a rural area, you're going from village to village, and they're, they're, they're, you know, they're mud hut walls. Like, they're tall, but you're walking through corridors and stuff. All you gotta (whistles) lob one of those, it's gonna take the whole unit out that just walked by. Like, it's, they're accurate if you're close enough, and they're effective if you're close enough. Um, I love them, though. I think they're fascinating to me, because they're such a tiny little thing, with such devastation.

Lex Fridman 51:49 Yeah.

Kelsi Sheren 51:49 They just can cause such devastation. But for me, when I had them, the, some of the Canadians would make fun of me, because when I did go outside the wire with the British, I had two right here. And I remember, I put a piece of tape over the spoons, because in my mind, I could picture myself searching someone and grabbing me and pulling that... And that would be me. That, that would have been like, yep, that, if anyone that was gonna happen to, it was her for sure.

Lex Fridman 52:15 (laughs) So, you were, uh, deployed to Afghanistan in 2009?

Kelsi Sheren 52:19 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 52:20 Okay. And, uh, like we said, you were in, in, uh, great, no, perfect physical shape.

Kelsi Sheren 52:26 Fucking epic shape.

Lex Fridman 52:27 E- epic shape. Six pack, or, I mean-

Kelsi Sheren 52:30 Yeah, always was.

Lex Fridman 52:30 Okay. P- so, uh, you could do pull, a lot of pull-ups and pushups and-

Kelsi Sheren 52:35 Yes. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 52:36 Okay, uh, (laughs) and well-trained would you say? W- were you already w- like-

Kelsi Sheren 52:40 No.

Lex Fridman 52:42 No?

Kelsi Sheren 52:42 No. I'll argue that point 'til I'm, uh, blue in the face. I spoke to... Recently, I actually spoke to my sergeant. He's not a sergeant anymore, but Sergeant Marc LeBlanc, he's in Africa right now on a deployment. He gave me a call the other day, and I remember talking to him about this. And it's frustrating, because we were at an active war. We were, sorry, we were involved in an active war where we, the units that I were in were decked red, which meant they needed people. So, when you need people, things go quick, whether or not that's right. I mean, you could argue that's the s- similar thing to what's happening in the world right now. We needed a vaccine. We got a vaccine. Is it the best it could be? Could it be better? Could it do more things? Sure, probably, but with the time that we had, we did the best that we could. That's my logic on that. For me, I joined the military in November of 2007. I was in basic training in January of 2008. I was graduated basic SQ, which is all your weapons training, your DP1, which is your trade-specific training. So, whatever trade you're gonna go into, whether it's infantry, armored, artillery, medic, whatever, that's your DP1. It's called different things in different units. And then, I got posted to my unit in September. So, January to September, I had done all my training, and I'm an English-speaking individual. I got posted to a French unit that only speaks French and had to learn the, all of the weapons systems, everything again that I just learned in that short timeframe, in French.

Lex Fridman 54:15 This part of, of your story that we... You're, you're telling this to Jocko is, o- one way to say it is very impressive, that you had to learn all of this in French. So, there's also the camaraderie, the social aspect of it, which is difficult probably, but-

Kelsi Sheren 54:29 I didn't have any. That's-

Lex Fridman 54:30 No? (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 54:30 Yeah, I di- di- didn't have any.

Lex Fridman 54:32 But it also would make you a more effective soldier to be socially, for that cohesion to be there, right?

Kelsi Sheren 54:38 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 54:38 Um, but also, just, just understanding the, the basic, um, terminology.

Kelsi Sheren 54:43 Correct.

Lex Fridman 54:44 ... and, uh-

Kelsi Sheren 54:44 The right way to say something on the radio, the right way to r- run a gun, the right way to... 'Cause you gotta move with those guns. If you got seven people, it's, it's, it's really magical. I've... I'll send you a video. We, when we did, um, some live fire in workup training in Texas before we left, we did a competition between the other gun to see who could fire 10 rounds fast, like faster.

Lex Fridman 55:03 Wow.

Kelsi Sheren 55:04 Um, it is truly beautiful to watch an artillery unit fire a gun, because it's, it's like a symphony. Everyone has their parts and everyone knows, and everyone's yelling, but they know why they're yelling. And everyone, "This guy's gotta do this in order for this guy to load the round." It's just, it's beautiful. It really is. It is gorgeous to watch. I miss it deeply.

Lex Fridman 55:26 Is there, by the way, for a gun, is there, like, one person responsible for the, for the aim and the, or, like, the specification of the location, and somebody else that pulls the, presses the-

Kelsi Sheren 55:37 The lanyard? Is it-

Lex Fridman 55:38 Is that the lanyard?

Kelsi Sheren 55:39 ... the button?

Lex Fridman 55:39 Is there a button?

Kelsi Sheren 55:40 It's be- it's better than a button. You'll like it. I'll tell you in a second.

Lex Fridman 55:43 Okay.

Kelsi Sheren 55:43 Um, your s- there's your sergeant in charge, and then they have their 2IC. And so, the comms come into the sergeant, and the sergeant is the, or h- or master bombardier or bombardier-chef. Um, yeah.

Lex Fridman 55:58 (laughs) Sorry, what? (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 56:00 B- (laughs)

Lex Fridman 56:00 Bombardier-chef? What?

Kelsi Sheren 56:01 Ba- Bombardier-chef.

Lex Fridman 56:02 B- bombardier-chef. Oh, that's the French master.

Kelsi Sheren 56:05 Master bombardier.

Lex Fridman 56:06 Yeah.

Kelsi Sheren 56:06 So it goes, like, private in the nor- like, in a infantry or an irregular unit, it's, like, private, corporal, master, corporal, sergeant.

Lex Fridman 56:14 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 56:15 In artillery, it goes gunner, bombardier, master bombardier, sergeant, weren't, and o- and off like that.

Lex Fridman 56:22 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 56:22 So you have two people, but the sarge is like, "You don't move," till he says, "Move." "You don't fire," till he says, "Fire." Like, he's your guy. He'll give you the coordinates. He'll feed them to the guy that's doing the, the GPS, that, that portion. I, I really never did it much. I wasn't tall enough to see it.

Lex Fridman 56:37 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 56:38 Like, legitimately, the way, how high it is up on the gun, like, it was... I couldn't see clearly enough. It was not good. So-

Lex Fridman 56:45 O- obviously, you have a big personality. You're a strong person.

Kelsi Sheren 56:48 You don't say?

Lex Fridman 56:49 Y- and you have a big hat currently. Uh-

Kelsi Sheren 56:51 I always wear a hat, Lex.

Lex Fridman 56:53 You always... Okay. It seems like your height and your size was a factor.

Kelsi Sheren 56:57 Oh, for sure.

Lex Fridman 56:58 How were you able to step up in all those moments, and, uh, how difficult was it?

Kelsi Sheren 57:04 I don't know that I realized it was difficult while I was doing it, because that's just the way it's been. I've always been the short person. That's life. I would... Nothing I can do to fix that. So there was no point. What, am I gonna whine about it? I'm gonna break my femurs and insert things to make me grow a little bit? Maybe, maybe since you're in robotics, you can figure that out.

Lex Fridman 57:21 Okay.

Kelsi Sheren 57:22 That's your task now.

Lex Fridman 57:24 (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 57:24 Make me be five foot three? That'd be great.

Lex Fridman 57:27 Yeah.

Kelsi Sheren 57:27 Um, for artillery, it really, what it came down to was... The unit I, when I got there, there was only a couple people who spoke any sort of English, and my sergeant was not one of them. But once he kind of started to get to know me a little bit th- the best that he could, he started to put effort into making sure I could lift the rounds, tra- make sure my, my capacity to do my job was there. And so, he to- took me under his wing in that, in that aspect. So he would take me to the gym with him, and he would show me exercises that would specifically help me load the round. So pick the round up from the ground, pick it up like a trick to, put your knee under it, use your legs, instead of just pick it up, use your back, blow your back out. He would work on that. And then depending on the position I was running the gun in, if I was running the side that had the charge bags... I'll explain that in a second, but if I was running the side that had the charge bags, I could step up onto the gun, and if I leaned inward enough with my right hand with the charge, and I kind of kicked off, I could kinda jump and shu- and shu- (laughs) shove it up the tube.

Lex Fridman 58:40 Got it.

Kelsi Sheren 58:41 Almost enough, yeah. If I was running the lanyard, which is the thing that makes it go boom, it's really easy. It's a long rope. You hook it on, and you put it, your right hand on your hip and on your left, and you, and you hold it there, and you just stare at your sergeant like this, (laughs) and you just wait for him to yell, "Fire." And he points at you when he does it. And when you do it, you turn your whole body with it. And when you do that, it alleviates the, a misfire, essentially, because if you just pull it, sometimes that's not enough. You gotta really give it your whole body into it.

Lex Fridman 59:12 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 59:12 And so, he would train me on how to do things differently so that I could do them effectively, and I wasn't a shit pump.

Lex Fridman 59:20 (laughs) Uh, a what?

Kelsi Sheren 59:22 So ship pump is a term that we use in Canada to call somebody useless. Uh, a shit pump is a useless soldier who is just, you're there, and that's the shit pump. And so, we all just deal with it, but somehow they're still there.

Lex Fridman 59:36 Yeah. What were we talking about? The lanyard? Okay.

Kelsi Sheren 59:38 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 59:38 Uh...

Kelsi Sheren 59:39 We were talking about the artillery guns. So those things though, what you would find fascinating, is just how they break down when you have to take one of those apart. I think your mind would really find it fascinating how a breach comes apart all the way down to, like, ball-bearing size. And the only... And there's a way to just make that gun completely ineffective, and all you have to do when you're on the charge side, there's a magazine that's a long linear magazine, and it holds, like, 15 little rounds. If you just take that thing out, that thing's not firing.

Lex Fridman 1:00:13 How many people does it take to move that? Like, how easy it is to move that thing?

Kelsi Sheren 1:00:16 To move a Triple Seven?

Lex Fridman 1:00:17 A Tri- Triple Seven. I like it.

Kelsi Sheren 1:00:20 Well, that's what they're called-

Lex Fridman 1:00:20 N-

Kelsi Sheren 1:00:21 ... M Triple Sevens.

Lex Fridman 1:00:21 Okay. Is, uh, a lot of the terminology crossover the same in English and French?

Kelsi Sheren 1:00:24 No.

Lex Fridman 1:00:25 Okay.

Kelsi Sheren 1:00:26 I mean, M Triple 7 does 'cause it's an obvious-

Lex Fridman 1:00:29 Right.

Kelsi Sheren 1:00:29 ... Howitzer, I'm sure, has a separate word. But, like, if you're running it, you're running it in French.

Lex Fridman 1:00:33 Right.

Kelsi Sheren 1:00:33 So, like, when I'd be running the... When I'm doing the charge bags, and I'm doing, I'm doing, you know, I'm loading everything, and I'm getting that ready, and that's my position that day, I'm also controlling the breach.... so, like, how it opens, how it closes when it locks.

Lex Fridman 1:00:49 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 1:00:50 And so... But you have to yell that as you do it. So you're yelling, like (French) . Like, you have to yell all these things. You have to learn them, though. And so for a long time it's, it's, it's, it was a little frustrating (laughs) , I won't lie.

Lex Fridman 1:01:04 This is really exciting. I took a lot of French but I forgot all of it. But I think it's a beautiful, romantic language.

Kelsi Sheren 1:01:10 If it's from Paris.

Lex Fridman 1:01:10 It's a good language.

Kelsi Sheren 1:01:11 If it's from Quebec, it's a, eh.

Lex Fridman 1:01:13 Yeah, that's true. It's a good language to fall in love with. Not as good as Russian, but, uh-

Kelsi Sheren 1:01:17 I mean-

Lex Fridman 1:01:18 ... it's like... English is, eh, all right.

Kelsi Sheren 1:01:21 I mean, Russian re- really, is that, like, a love language?

Lex Fridman 1:01:24 It is to me.

Kelsi Sheren 1:01:25 I mean because you're Russian.

Lex Fridman 1:01:26 (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 1:01:26 But if somebody walked up to me and was like, "Hey, Kelsey, I like you."

Lex Fridman 1:01:30 (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 1:01:30 I'd be like, "Oh, God! He's gonna put me in a camp!"

Lex Fridman 1:01:33 That's because you don't understand love, Kelsey.

Kelsi Sheren 1:01:35 I don't?

Lex Fridman 1:01:35 We'll talk about that. Okay.

Kelsi Sheren 1:01:37 Okay.

Lex Fridman 1:01:37 How many people does it take to move the M Triple 7? Maybe w-

Kelsi Sheren 1:01:40 It depends. If you're moving it by ground, you're moving it on a truck. And when you're moving it on a truck, you're hooking the back of it onto... You're hooking the front of the barrel onto one of those big transport-looking trucks that has those cargo tents that's got soldiers in it. You don't wanna ever move an M Triple 7 by that way if, if you don't have to. The barrel's worth a million dollars.

Lex Fridman 1:01:59 Wow. Okay, so this is, like, a serious piece of equipment.

Kelsi Sheren 1:02:02 You don't wanna move 'em.

Lex Fridman 1:02:03 Okay.

Kelsi Sheren 1:02:03 When we got to Kandahar, we were there for a couple of days, we got flown out to the FOB we were gonna be at, Forward Observation Base.

Lex Fridman 1:02:11 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 1:02:12 Kandahar is the safe space, or was the major base in Afghanistan that we were at. There's things like Tim Horton's there. There's Canada House. There's a British side, an American side, a Canadian side, and, you know, that's where you see all the different countries in the world kinda come together. You would see-

Lex Fridman 1:02:27 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 1:02:27 ... Italians, you would see Germans, you would see French, you would see all these different uniforms and you never know who to salute 'cause you don't know what each thing means.

Lex Fridman 1:02:35 It doesn't feel like a war zone?

Kelsi Sheren 1:02:36 No. Oh, God, no. There's a boardwalk, there's hockey there, like floor hockey, 'cause Canada had to have that. There's a Tim Horton's, a Subway, a Pizza Hut, a PX, um, I think there's a restaurant there somewhere, but I never, I didn't get to go. You know, stuff like that. There's gyms, you can run around it, you feel fairly safe. You always have a weapon on you, but you can, you know, live your life. Um, when you get out to the FOB, the guns are already there. So those M Triple 7s get lifted by a Chinook. Normally, if they're going by air, they go by Chinook, 'cause they're heavy as hell. And Chinooks can hook them under the bottom and they fly them and then they'll drop them down. They have wheels on them, but you don't need them if you're gonna leave it in place.

Lex Fridman 1:03:18 Got it. And you're getting information about IEDs, and-

Kelsi Sheren 1:03:21 You're getting a land- a lay of the land as to what's been going on in the country for the past six months.

Lex Fridman 1:03:26 And this is you know nothing. You're just, like, this is your first

Lex Fridman 1:03:29 time, you're getting deployed. So what was your deployment like? Can you tell the story of your deployment to Afghanistan?

Kelsi Sheren 1:03:36 Like, the whole deployment? Getting... Like, actual deploying, not the deployment itself.

Lex Fridman 1:03:42 What's the difference between the two?

Kelsi Sheren 1:03:43 Well, actually getting ready to deploy is a little different.

Lex Fridman 1:03:46 So I mean the emotional build-up to it-

Kelsi Sheren 1:03:48 Got it.

Lex Fridman 1:03:49 ... and, uh, some of the, some of the memorable things that kind of, uh, you remember from that experience, both on the excitement, "I get to see battle, I get to be part of this," and the fear, and also, like, being surprised like with the Tim Horton's and all those kinds of things.

Kelsi Sheren 1:04:05 So, like, the lead-up before everything-

Lex Fridman 1:04:07 Lead-up.

Kelsi Sheren 1:04:07 ... like, shit hit the fan? Okay, cool. So (laughs) w-

Lex Fridman 1:04:11 You're such a fascinating person, but yes, yes.

Kelsi Sheren 1:04:13 Something like that.

Lex Fridman 1:04:14 Yes.

Kelsi Sheren 1:04:14 I've been called-

Lex Fridman 1:04:16 Many things-

Kelsi Sheren 1:04:16 Yeah, fascinating is new.

Lex Fridman 1:04:17 ... that start with the letter F.

Kelsi Sheren 1:04:19 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:04:19 No, I don't know. I don't know many words with F. Okay, so the build-up-

Kelsi Sheren 1:04:23 So-

Lex Fridman 1:04:23 ... to the, uh, deployment.

Kelsi Sheren 1:04:25 So for... The build-up for the deployment, I was in Quebec, and my unit was deploying from Quebec. And at that time, you kind of get your marching orders, you know you're deploying. I knew I was deploying before I even graduated. That's how much they needed people. So once I did all that training, on graduation parade day, a couple men from Quebec, in uniforms, came over and said, "You, you, you and you are all being posted to Baquiatse, and you're gonna deploy with us in April." So that's how I found out I was deploying.

Lex Fridman 1:04:52 Why was there such a need for troops in Afghanistan? Is that, is... That was a well-known thing that, that there's-

Kelsi Sheren 1:04:57 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:04:57 ... a scaling up of troops and-

Kelsi Sheren 1:04:58 Mm-hmm. 2007 on, Canada really started taking a combat role. Before, it was very much more a UN type deal where doing what we normally do in most wars, where we just, we wear blue and we don't shoot anyone. And so we're there to help. And so they were really, they were scaling up, and there wasn't a lot of people in those, uh, trades initially, I think, when the war kinda started, so Canada really started to scale. And so when I got to Quebec, we've kind of found out, "Yeah, we're deploying." And it was a weird situation, because I have never actually been at a unit on a non-deployable unit. So I don't know what they do day-to-day that's different from what I did; I just know what I did. So we would do things like, in the morning, we would get up and we would meet for PT at 5:00 AM, and that would include going for a 10K run, or playing ball hockey for a few hours in the gym, or lifting weights (laughs) together, or, you know, just going on a ruck march, a long ruck march. So just stuff like that. You would have a shower, you would meet, and then you would just sit around the, the regiment. You would just sit around the regiment. And you would... If there was busy work, you'd mop the floors, you would clean weapons. There wasn't a whole lot until there was a whole lot to do.

Lex Fridman 1:06:09 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 1:06:10 We did a lot for a while, and then we went away on workup training to Texas for a week. We came down here and we did live fire with, um, with our other troop that was gonna be with us. So Alpha, Alpha had two guns, and two guns has two groups of people. And so we all would go down to Texas, and we did live fire here for a week. And I ended up getting gastro, which was awesome, so thanks for that.

Lex Fridman 1:06:38 From?

Kelsi Sheren 1:06:39 Oh, apparently there was, uh, they were having water problems and sanitary problems, so everyone was getting it on the base. So it-

Lex Fridman 1:06:46 Okay. So it just makes your life way harder.

Kelsi Sheren 1:06:49 I didn't get it towards the end, 'til towards the end, so that was-... fortunate. So, we would fire live fire. We would go out to the middle of nowhere. The guns would be there, and we would get, uh, offload a truck of, uh, rounds, and we would do live fire, and we would practice, just constant practice. What's that saying? Perfect practice makes perfect.

Lex Fridman 1:07:07 Yeah, so this is essentially a, like a shooting range for-

Kelsi Sheren 1:07:11 Artillery.

Lex Fridman 1:07:12 ... for artillery.

Kelsi Sheren 1:07:13 For long range.

Lex Fridman 1:07:13 So, what does, what does practice look like? Is this-

Kelsi Sheren 1:07:16 So, you roll up in your trucks, in your, your, you know, you've got, uh, each group of people. You've got two trucks, and then you've got like a medic vehicle, and then you've got like an officer vehicle, and a comms vehicle, and you, you go to your perspective guns, and then you offload your ammo, and then you basically wait for them to send you like a, a, a fire mission. Wow, get that together. They would call, they would say, like en mission, sit. So, it'd be a fire mission. So, we'd wait for that, and once we got that, then you all run like a bunch of scattered rats to the gun, like it's like the greatest thing you've ever seen.

Lex Fridman 1:07:48 Mm-hmm.

Kelsi Sheren 1:07:49 And then, um, you just wait. You wait for the call for the sergeants to say, and then you'll hear it 'cause it's not headphones. You can hear it on a speaker, and it'd be like, uh, I'm not gonna do it in French. Don't ask. It'd be like, um, uh, "So-and-so, 10 rounds, um, fire when ready." And then you'd get your rounds ready, and everyone would have them ready, would be in their perspective, um, respective positions, and then you would wait. And then they would say, "Fire when ready." And as soon as they say, "Fire when ready," that means just start going, just start, and then that's when the magic starts.

Lex Fridman 1:08:22 You go like the loop. Like, you, you shoot one, and whatever, there's a reloading process, or-

Kelsi Sheren 1:08:26 Yep, there's a loop. So, what you would do, you would get the fire mission. You would find out the rounds. The 2IC would be standing by the rounds, and it was his job to make sure the amount of rounds that was told would be the only rounds (laughs) that would go down range. And so he'd stand there, and on each round, depending on the type of round, is a fuse, which gets screwed onto the top of the round. So, they're, they're about that big, and it's just a point, and then you would have to put it on, give it a spin, and depending if it was a time release, you had a little, um, what do you call it? You get those at IKEA when you have to build everything. Allen key- allen wrench?

Lex Fridman 1:09:01 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Allen wrench.

Kelsi Sheren 1:09:01 Yeah, you know what I'm talking about.

Lex Fridman 1:09:02 Yeah.

Kelsi Sheren 1:09:03 And then they have-

Lex Fridman 1:09:03 What, like a big one or something?

Kelsi Sheren 1:09:04 No, just a little one 'cause it's a tiny little hole, and you just gotta click it to where it's supposed to go, and it depended on what the call was for.

Lex Fridman 1:09:10 Oh.

Kelsi Sheren 1:09:10 And it was a timer.

Lex Fridman 1:09:11 Th- when you said like wheel, you mean like a little thing then. Is that, is that what we're talking about?

Kelsi Sheren 1:09:16 No, no, I'm talking about the round itself. So, you would put a fuse on top of the round. So, you would unload the ammo, and then you would put fuses on them, and the fuses are on the top, and they're like a little, like a ice cream topper kind of thing, and you would spin those on.

Lex Fridman 1:09:31 Oh, okay. I gotcha.

Kelsi Sheren 1:09:31 And then once they're on, depending if it's a time release or not, you would take this little thing, and you would move it, the top, and that would-

Lex Fridman 1:09:38 Oh.

Kelsi Sheren 1:09:38 It's almost like a little timer.

Lex Fridman 1:09:39 Cool.

Kelsi Sheren 1:09:40 Yeah, it depended.

Lex Fridman 1:09:41 So, you're as- assembling a bullet.

Kelsi Sheren 1:09:44 Essentially, a very big one that goes up to my waist.

Lex Fridman 1:09:47 Cool.

Kelsi Sheren 1:09:47 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:09:47 This is, this is very cool, and you're, you're a fascinating person. Okay, so you, the, just, just that you still, even years later, have all of this in your memory in some form.

Kelsi Sheren 1:09:55 It's not all perfectly accurate.

Lex Fridman 1:09:57 Yeah.

Kelsi Sheren 1:09:57 And that's what irritates me though is because I'm, it bothers me when I can't remember things accurately, but I have a lot of, I've had a lot of memory issues and problems after like having too many hits to the head. And-

Lex Fridman 1:10:08 This is from earlier in childhood or later?

Kelsi Sheren 1:10:11 Uh, both.

Lex Fridman 1:10:11 Okay.

Kelsi Sheren 1:10:12 Both. The military did not help it.

Lex Fridman 1:10:15 Where was, where was the hits in the head in the military?

Kelsi Sheren 1:10:18 Well, when you have a car that goes up beside your face like this, and it shoots around, it, it gives you a concussive blast. Also, there's new research being done. I'll find out exactly what it is. But there's new research that's being done that shows that if you're an artillery gunner and you stand within a certain range of that gun, you get the same amount of concussive blast, and it, there's a, there's a range. I had no idea, but you feel it when it goes off, like it hurt, your whole body feels it.

Lex Fridman 1:10:43 Your mind is fascinating because it's like literally the opposite of mine. One, you're able to speak very quickly, very clearly-

Kelsi Sheren 1:10:49 Sorry, sorry, sorry.

Lex Fridman 1:10:51 ... very sharply. No, what?

Kelsi Sheren 1:10:52 I talk too fast, and I'm really loud-

Lex Fridman 1:10:53 No, that's perfect.

Kelsi Sheren 1:10:54 ... 'cause of my hearing.

Lex Fridman 1:10:54 I admire, no, I mean, I admire that very, I can't do any of that, and you listen extremely well, and you're extremely attentive, and you have a good memory. So, anyways, just fun, fun to watch you at, um, I can tell you were a great soldier in just all different aspects of it.

Kelsi Sheren 1:11:09 Thank you.

Lex Fridman 1:11:10 Okay.

Kelsi Sheren 1:11:11 I appreciate it.

Lex Fridman 1:11:11 But what the heck were we talking about? Oh, build-up to the deployment.

Kelsi Sheren 1:11:14 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:11:14 How did we get to Texas?

Kelsi Sheren 1:11:16 Because that was part of the build-up to my deployment.

Lex Fridman 1:11:18 Mm-hmm. And live fire, you got to, what, did that feel good to, to-

Kelsi Sheren 1:11:21 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:11:21 (laughs) You... (laughs)

Kelsi Sheren 1:11:25 It's so good. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:11:26 What's the favorite, what's the best part about, like, shooting artillery? Like what, what's the thing that's, that feels good? Which part?

Kelsi Sheren 1:11:36 Power.

Lex Fridman 1:11:36 The f- well, the full, the feeling of power. When is the best moment of, the highest moment of the feeling of power? Is it the whole process that you love, or is there like when you actually shoot it?

Kelsi Sheren 1:11:48 It's symbiotic. It's a beautiful thing to watch. To know that a gun can fire, and it takes kind of a dance to make it work. There's something about that to me that just got my heart racing. When you actually shoot the round, and you see it go, and you hear it, it's unlike a... you can't descr- there's no, uh, I've never felt another feeling. I've also never been in, like, an F-18 or an F like 16 or, like, any, I've never been in anything like that. And I've, you know, I've never, trying to think of something else that'd be comparable. I've never been in, like, a Formula 1 car. Those are the only things I can picture being that much for me because to shoot one of those and to know that you've done your job right means that you've helped, and that, to me, was really what did it for me. When you hear your sergeant say, "Mission accomplished, target hit, target acquired," then you're like, (sighs) that's a good feeling. That's the stuff.

Lex Fridman 1:12:46 Quick pause.

Kelsi Sheren 1:12:48 Take a break, Lex.

Lex Fridman 1:12:50 Okay. So, live fire in Texas. Where in Texas by the way?

Kelsi Sheren 1:12:54 Fort Worth or Fort Hood, one of them.

Lex Fridman 1:12:56 Oh, okay. So like, it's, wha- is that close to a big major city? Do you remember just-

Kelsi Sheren 1:13:00 Y-

Lex Fridman 1:13:00 ... do you remember visiting a city or do you think-

Kelsi Sheren 1:13:02 Oh, God, no. We, (laughs) we fly right into the tarmac and they're like, "Don't touch the snakes," and then they send you out to the field.

Lex Fridman 1:13:09 Got it.

Kelsi Sheren 1:13:10 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:13:10 Those seem the only instructions.

Kelsi Sheren 1:13:12 No, really. We went into a classroom and they're like, "These are the animals that are in the wildlife in Texas. If you see any of them, do not approach. Do not go pee outside. Do not squat down. It is snake season, people." And I was like, "I have to pee and squat down."

Lex Fridman 1:13:25 Why, why Texas in, from, like, Canada? Is it a s- a simulation of, uh, Afghanistan?

Kelsi Sheren 1:13:31 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:13:32 Oh, okay. So then that's... Okay, so you're getting... A- and that's the way live fire was seen in artilleries? Like, you're trying to simulate certain aspects of what you might actually see in Afghanistan?

Kelsi Sheren 1:13:43 I would think so. I mean, we, it, it looks like, it's hot like it, you're out in the middle of nowhere. It, very similar terrain. That's the first time we started to get to wear our tan boots and our tan, like, our combat tan stuff. Before, you couldn't wear that. So it gave us an opportunity to kind of break in, break in how we were gonna be doing this, what it was gonna look like, how the guns were gonna work, and all of those lovely things.

Lex Fridman 1:14:06 How do you go from there to being deployed? What were, what was the next part of the journey?

Kelsi Sheren 1:14:12 So then we go to Wainwright, Alberta, often called or referenced as Waincock, 'cause it sucks so bad. It is a massive open space in Alberta, which most of Alberta is, and it's outside of a small town called Wainwright, and it is a Field Ex training area for all of the Canadian military. And it's where you do live fire, but you also do workup training. So you go out there for a month or two, I think it is. I don't remember the exact time we were there, because it was just... You sleep in