Lex Fridman PodcastKelsi Sheren: War, Artillery, PTSD, and Love | Lex Fridman Podcast #230
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,268 words- 0:00 – 0:45
Introduction
- LFLex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Kelsey Sherron, Canadian Forces veteran, artillery gunner, who served in Afghanistan at 18 years old and came home with severe PTSD. She went on to found Brass and Unity, which creates unique jewelry, large part of the proceeds from which go to help rehabilitate the lives, limbs, and mental health of veterans and first responders. She has a big personality, big heart, and an intense passion for life. So when our paths happened to cross, I knew we needed to talk. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now here's my conversation with Kelsey Sherron.
- 0:45 – 11:48
World War II
- LFLex Fridman
You mentioned that studying history had a big impact on you, and that your grandfather was a World War II vet. So people that have gone through World War II, in my family too, they don't seem to talk about it much. Like, the worse the tragedy, the less they talk about it.
- KSKelsi Sheren
I mean, that's understandable. I can respect that. But I don't think people fully understood the value in human stories over, over time, and sharing that. That certain civilizations don't have written language. The value in that being passed down is, is extraordinary, but we didn't really have that with the World War II vets, it seems like.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, th- they kind of want to protect you from the pain. Like, my, my grandfa- my grandmother went through Holodomor, which is the Ukrainian starvation of millions of people, and then obviously, uh, went through World War II with the Nazi occupation, and, uh, same on the grandfather's side, who, uh, uh, on my dad's side, grandfather fought in World War II. And they seemed to not want to talk about those experiences to protect you from the suffering, to protect you from the evil that they've experienced. Which is, um, sad because the lessons from that history are not then propagated through you. And also, there's something about the strength you carry with you knowing that that's in your blood, those great heroes are in your blood, and that suffering, overcoming that suffering is in your blood.
- KSKelsi Sheren
I would argue that's exactly correct. If you, if you have someone you know that comes from your lineage that has done something super gnarly, that's just been a badass in, in so many different ways, you wanna know about that person. You have that person's blood in you. That's important to acknowledge. And when that isn't shared, I feel like it's just a detriment to that individual.
- LFLex Fridman
What do you make of World War II in terms of history? Do you think about, uh, those kinds of wars where, uh, two times more civilians died than the number of, um, military personnel? So most of the war is basically just the death of civilians and the invasion of homes, the burning of homes, the bombing of homes, all of that.
- KSKelsi Sheren
World War II for me, I find that was the first experience where I became just obsessed with history. World War II really did it for me. Um, I'm not sure if it's because of the dramatization of film and, and TV and the way that our generation has looked at it, but for me, it was more than that. I felt a deep connection to it, and I still can't figure out why. Like a pull almost. Uh, people joke around about those past lives and those things or those connections, and there's something deeper within me that feels a pull towards that. And I'm, I'm not quite sure if, um, it's because I had family that, you know, escaped hungry once the Soviets came in, so thanks for that, um, or if it was because my grandfather served in it, or for whatever reason, I just, I have this pull to it. And so when you think about the mass casualty of the civilian population, that's very difficult for me to wrap my brain around after being in a war and seeing when you have a small subset of civilians die, how much of an impact that has on that community right there in just, in just a tiny area. So to, to try to wrap my brain around what happened in Europe and all across and, and all that, I really struggle with that, because I don't know that I can comprehend what that would truly mean to somebody if I, if I didn't experience it or, or see it for what it is. Does that make sense?
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. But, uh, so first of all, you're right. A lot of people are drawn to World War II for different reasons. So one is Hitler and Stalin, trying to understand how it's possible to have that scale of evil, in, uh, very different flavors of evil. It's almost fascinating that human nature can allow for that. And then also it's fascinating that so many people can follow leaders like that with, with a pride and with a love of country.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
And that's like, it's almost like this weird experiment. It's like, "Wow, I wonder if I'm the, the same, I'm made from the same, uh, cloth as those people." Like, would I be a good German if, uh, if I lived in Germany, uh, and was, you know, during the time of Hitler, would I believe that Germany has been done wrong? I'm Jewish by the way, which would, makes me a little bit more comfortable (laughs) talking about this.
- KSKelsi Sheren
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, uh, is would I, would I believe in the dream sold by a charismatic dictator who says that wrongs have been done and we need to correct those wrongs? Th- that, to me, is the compelling thing that draws me t- uh, to World War II, uh, the human nature question.
- KSKelsi Sheren
I would agree with you on that. I think there's a way to look at people like that. And at that time, there was no real... well, there wasn't a full understanding of the psyche the way that we're starting to. I mean, we still don't understand any of it, but it seems like the, you know, the time gap back then, there was no real understanding of...... sociopaths and narcissists and, you know, psychopaths, and really what those traits were, and I feel like you- you know, people will follow blindly if they're given a good enough reason. Well, if you have an individual who is ranting and screaming at the top of his lungs in the middle of these town squares, and he's getting this attention, it's human nature to want to understand and- and be a part of a group mentality. It's- it's human nature to want to fit in. And so, I don't know if it's more of people were, at the beginning were just, "This is the cool thing to do." Or if it was, they were genuinely terrified, or if there was an aspect that was like, "This guy is saying something that resonates with me." There- there could be a lot of different things. I think it's unfortunate that we didn't get to, or no one got to really, you know, examine this individual's brain and this person, and- and why they thought the way they thought. 'Cause I, that's always been the biggest thing for me is, I'm really curious about why people do what they do. Like, deeply, deeply curious about it.
- LFLex Fridman
I'm not sure who's more interesting, the people that follow Hitler or Hitler himself. S- so, I mean, that, the- the question that's coupled with that is, uh, would history roll out in similar ways even if there wasn't a Hitler? You know, it's- it's the people that created a Hitler or did Hitler create the events of World War II.
- KSKelsi Sheren
I think the people would be more interesting, in my opinion.
- LFLex Fridman
That seems to be the, um, that the charismatic leaders are all out there.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, the failed artists, in the case of Hitler, they're all out there.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
And it's just when there's this environment of anger and fear, charismatic leaders can take over-
- KSKelsi Sheren
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
... and, uh, it doesn't matter if they're evil or good. It's like a roll of the dice, in terms of history-
- KSKelsi Sheren
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... what, uh, how evil, how truly insane they are. Like, uh, I think Stalin was much more cold and calculating. He wasn't as insane as Hitler. Hitler was legitimately insane, um, like especially later on in the war, where he would do irrational actions, I would say. So that- but that- that- that's like a weird roll of the dice. You could've gotten a totally different leader. Uh, the- the inva- (laughs) wanting to take over the entirety of Europe and then invading Russia, that's- that's like insanity.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Yeah, that, just even, just the- the first part of that, wanting to take over Europe, if you really think about the scale, if you really sit down and go, "He want," this one individual was like, "I want all of this." If you really sat down, and you were to sit down and put him and his traits that we know of into any sort of document nowadays that- that deems somebody a psychopath or a narcissist, this guy would set it on fire. There's, you know, he himself was so, I think so damaged, and he reminds me a lot of, um, people now who- who struggle to find their way. He reminds me a lot of angry individuals who are told no, either by women or by business or by whatever the sector they're in. He reminds me very much of that, like, ah, there, what's the word I'm looking for? Just that individual who is just like, "The world is shit and the- the world owes me everything." And just, it's that mentality. He really came from that, it seems like.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- KSKelsi Sheren
And when you foster that too long, you get that.
- LFLex Fridman
There's a book called, uh, what is it? Man from Underground by Dostoevsky. I might be misnaming the book, but it's about the bitterness of a man. It's like it breeds within his mind and- and it just grows-
- KSKelsi Sheren
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
... that bitterness. I mean, we- we all have that sort of, uh, resenting of the world when you're- when you're younger, when... Y- you have a choice. When you fail, do you blame the world or do you hold, it's the Jocko thing, do you hold-
- KSKelsi Sheren
(laughs)
- 11:48 – 26:04
Yeonmi Park, starvation, and mental health
- LFLex Fridman
Stalin. Uh, to be honest, the, uh, the starvation is, I've just been talking to a lot of folks recently, especially like North Korea with-
- KSKelsi Sheren
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
... Ryugyong Park, starvation, and- and I remember from my grandmother, it wasn't, I mean, time and time again-... not having food to eat is the thing that people say is the worst.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
Everything. It's way worse than murder. Not having food, and the places that takes your mind and the actions that forces you to do.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
That's terrifying. And all of that seems very distant in our history.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Yeah, I love her. I watched that interview with her. She is... I want to talk to that woman so bad, because when she was on Joe and she sat there and said... Joe was like, "Do you... Have you done any therapy?" And she laughed. I was like, "Oh, that's my girl."
- LFLex Fridman
It's- it's such a fascinating... I mean, I would love for you to kind of talk to her and explore her mind, because we kind of explored her story.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
And that's... There's power and an importance to her story, but it's so difficult to understand, like how does she become healthier and better, uh, even more so than she is already? She's- she's recovered quite a bit, you know, she's found herself quite a bit.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
But I wonder, is she haunted?
- KSKelsi Sheren
You're saying questions I want to ask.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Like that's what I mean, because after being in a war, there are certain things, there are certain atrocities that you see that the ma-... It doesn't matter the therapy that you do. And I don't care what all the Special Ops guys say, like I know plenty of them that have a light switch and they turn it off and they can function, but I also know them when they've been out for 10 years. There's things that haunt people differently, but there's no way there's not something going on there deeply.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, but there's also s- extra levels of complexity in her case, because, um...
- KSKelsi Sheren
Of course.
- LFLex Fridman
I mean, this is what just looking at history of my own family is, she spent much of her early life loving the dictator, right? She-
- KSKelsi Sheren
Yeah. We like the water or something.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- KSKelsi Sheren
It's like, "We like water," or, "We like this," 'cause there is no, like, individual. Like when they said there was no-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- KSKelsi Sheren
... love or anything.
- LFLex Fridman
But there is a love for the-
- KSKelsi Sheren
Just that individual.
- LFLex Fridman
... for that individual. And so, I mean, it's like the ultimate abusive relationship.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Oh, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
And, uh, but- but it's still love.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Mm-hmm.
- 26:04 – 29:34
Kelsi's 9/11 experience
- KSKelsi Sheren
me up.
- LFLex Fridman
Where were you on, uh, 9/11?
- KSKelsi Sheren
I was 11, and I was in my parents' basement. And-
- LFLex Fridman
Okay. In, uh, where?
- KSKelsi Sheren
Ontario.
- LFLex Fridman
In Ontario, Canada.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Ontario, Canada.
- LFLex Fridman
Wh- what did you think of 9/11 at that age from Canada? Did it have an impact on you in terms of, uh, changing the, um, the level of evil you thought is there in the world today?
- KSKelsi Sheren
Not initially. I remember it really vividly. I have a decent memory for certain things, it seems like. Stuff like that, I stick with really well. Um, I remember watching it. I was sitting on the couch, and, um, my mom, my mom called my dad, 'cause my, my parents are truck drivers. So, my dad was on the road, if I'm not mistaken, and he would go in and out of cities all the time, and I think he was on the East Coast. So, my mom was like a little panicky. So, she c- she tried to get a hold of him on the, I think she, at the time, it was like, beepers and, um... Yeah. So, he would get a beep. He would go to a payphone and call us. And he was fine, and, um, I remember my mom being like really upset, and I couldn't quite grasp why she was so upset. I knew something really bad had happened. It's when I then saw the second plane go into the tower, and I remember her just, like, the stereotypical, like, hand over her mouth, and she just felt sick, and she just was so confused. And I knew it was bad, but I didn't fully grasp it. We went to school that day, and they had talked about it briefly. You could hear the teachers kind of reminiscing about it. There was a point the, that week that, all of a sudden, all of the children who were from a Middle Eastern family were not at the school. I just remember them saying, like, "Their, a lot of people aren't coming to school." But it was, it was in particular. I think parents were afraid once it got out that it was of a certain, um, group. They were afraid for their own kids. And fair enough, I mean, y- you never know. You don't know. And, um, I knew it impacted me enough that I did write... I remember, I, the school was doing a memorial for it, and I remember they as- I wrote a poem.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- KSKelsi Sheren
And a reporter was there, and I read it on air. That's, like, I remember, like... It was, it was like, it was a very short one, but I remember I, like, wanted to do something, but I didn't know why or for, for what reason. I just, I knew I wanted to do something to honor it, but I didn't, I couldn't grasp why.
- LFLex Fridman
You eventually went to Afghanistan.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
D- did that begin to plant the seed of thinking about conflict in the world?
- KSKelsi Sheren
It's a good question. I've never thought about it that in depth. I mean, I've done 12 years of therapy. You think that would have come up, Dr. Pasi, but apparently not.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- KSKelsi Sheren
We'll work on it though.
- LFLex Fridman
I mean, when did, uh, like, when did the idea of war start entering your mind?
- KSKelsi Sheren
Late high school, I think it was for me. Um, I was... I finished high school at 17. I moved away and went to college. I went to Algonquin College 'cause I wasn't smart enough to get into Ottawa U. So, I was like, "Well..." (laughs) "Algonquin she is." Uh, I just wanted to play sports, and frankly, I wanted away from my small town that I was living in. I went through, like, a bad high school breakup as a kid, and you know that, where you think that's, like, the love of your life, and you just can't bear to be anywhere near anybody. And so I, I moved away as fast as I possibly could. And I didn't grasp it still at that point.
- 29:34 – 36:01
Becoming a soldier
- KSKelsi Sheren
- LFLex Fridman
Love and heartbreak. Okay. Why did you become a soldier? Why did you want to become a soldier?
- KSKelsi Sheren
My parents told me from an early age, they always figured I would either be a cop. I would do... They didn't think military, but they thought it would be, like, a type A personality, possibly carry a gun situation. And, um, I'd never hunted before. We'd never had guns in our house. I was never exposed to weapons of any kind. If anything, it was, it was the opposite. We just...
- LFLex Fridman
Hmm.
- KSKelsi Sheren
All the hunters on the property, like, all the deer would come to our property, and all the hunters would be-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- KSKelsi Sheren
No, I'm s- I'm not... My mom would put salt licks out so that they wouldn't get killed.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. Your property was the safe space for the deer.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Yeah, it was 17 acres of forest, and they just-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- KSKelsi Sheren
We had two turkeys that used to walk up and down the driveway every day.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- KSKelsi Sheren
We had bears in there. Nobody bothered them. And so-There was no aspect of, like, "I wanna go kill shit." That was not, like, a thing. I had no idea I wanted to take anybody off the face of the earth or anything.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- KSKelsi Sheren
I went to school, and because I'm a history person, I... My parents has always, always made it, uh, really important that Remembrance Day is the thing in our life. So, that's Veterans Day for you, so it's November 11th. And it's you go, you honor. W- I, I don't care if you don't wanna go, I don't care if it's raining, you go. And so, I went to the Remembrance Day ceremony in Ottawa that year, which was... It's our capital, which is... Yeah. It's our capital and it's really small, and so I went. But I took the bus, and I was on the bus back to Algonquin. And I met a lady who was like, a World War II vet, really old lady. She had an Air Force uniform on, and just, like, this row of medals. And I mean, I think you can tell by our limited two extreme interactions we've had over the short period of time, I'm curious and I'll just ask you.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- KSKelsi Sheren
And so, I just got up and talked to her, and just started talking to her. And she didn't say, like... I, I don't remember exactly her words, but she'd served. She was one of the first females to fly, and, you know, all, all of these...
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- KSKelsi Sheren
... kind of things that stuck in my head. And we just kinda kept talking, and I missed my stop. And then I finished talking to her, and I got back on the bus and went back to the college. And walked into my, uh, my small apartment where I had two roommates, these two guys I went to high school with. One of them, I went to high school with, one was from out of town. And I, I just didn't like what I was... I wasn't happy. I wasn't doing what I wanted to do, and I didn't know what I wanted to do, truthfully. Something just said, "Why don't you join the army?" Like, in myself, my, my self-talk was like, "Let's just join the military. Let's do it."
- LFLex Fridman
Are you, in general, somebody that just follows the gut? Like, when your heart tells you something, you go with it?
- KSKelsi Sheren
For the most part, as... Because I've figured out, at least now I've figured out, what parts I could... Like, what feeling I can trust and which one I can't. Which one's anxiety versus which one's my actual intuition talking.
- LFLex Fridman
So, why did you sign up to be an artillery gunner?
- KSKelsi Sheren
Because they wouldn't let me be infantry.
- LFLex Fridman
I mean, is it... (laughs) Why, why would you wanna be infantry?
- KSKelsi Sheren
(sighs)
- LFLex Fridman
I mean, that's... You're, you're, you're, you're naming a lot of dangerous activities.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Yeah, but that wasn't a thought in my mind at the time. My idea was, if I was gonna do this, and I was gonna put myself through the bullshit and the training and all of the hell, and the push-ups and getting, blah, blah, blah, screamed at, I wanted to do something that I know was actually going to be affecting something. And what I knew was making change or effecting or on the front lines was infantry, artillery, or armored. So, I was like, "One of those."
- LFLex Fridman
Can you explain the difference, infantry, artillery, and armored?
- KSKelsi Sheren
Do you want, like, the layman's term, or do you want me to actually explain, explain?
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Well, listening to your conversation with Jocko especially, I love how you get into details.
- 36:01 – 45:44
Artillery: The Hand of God
- LFLex Fridman
on your perspective.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Help us.
- LFLex Fridman
Okay, so artillery.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Yeah. So, that's the hand of God.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Sorry.
- KSKelsi Sheren
No, I... (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
I think that's, that's intensely, uh, romanticized version, but okay.
- KSKelsi Sheren
It is.
- LFLex Fridman
Artillery, the hand of God. So-
- KSKelsi Sheren
'Cause it will reach out and touch you from wherever we want. It's like, it's like F, um, F18 pilots or bombers. They'll... You won't know they're there until they're there. And so, for artillery-... I, I really, honestly didn't think artillery would be a fit for me. I didn't know much about it. They were just like, "These are what you can pick from." And I was like, "I'll go here." So, in World War II, they used much closer artillery. So, it's the ro- we're called the Royal Canadian Horse Artillery, 'cause the Queen made us royal. So, Canadian Artillery. And, um, we, we shoot these rounds. When you're in training, you shoot smaller, smaller ammunition. They're about 40 pounds. They go, I'm gonna get this wrong, 20K, 20 kilometers, so whatever that is in your mile things.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- KSKelsi Sheren
And, um, they have a casing on them and, uh, they're much easier, they're easier to handle. The guns are smaller. You need less people for them. They're basically what you train on nowadays. It's not what we use overseas. What we use overseas, now those things are beautiful. Those are just a sheer work of... Uh, the engineering behind them just makes my heart skip a beat.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, the engineering on modern guns is amazing. So, are we talking about machine guns here?
- KSKelsi Sheren
No, you're talking about-
- LFLex Fridman
So, like fully automatic?
- KSKelsi Sheren
No. You're talking about an artillery gun. So, what it is, it's a 155 millimeter Howitzer that shoots ups to, up to 40 kilometers accurately, 45 unrecorded, and it shoots 100-pound round.
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, okay.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Hand of God.
- LFLex Fridman
So, that, but there, there is still precision?
- KSKelsi Sheren
Accurate as hell.
- LFLex Fridman
Accurate, okay.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Accurate if the people behind it that are shooting it and aiming it are accurate.
- LFLex Fridman
Okay. Uh, so (laughs) , so how, at which stage of the warfare do they come in? Are they saving you?
- KSKelsi Sheren
No.
- LFLex Fridman
Like, say a bunch of people get, uh, raided. A bunch of the sole infantry get raided, and then the artillery saves them, or are they the first line of attack, or what, where are they? Where, where does the art- artillery go? Like, the hand of God presumes-
- KSKelsi Sheren
'Cause it reaches the-
- LFLex Fridman
... they're helping.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Yeah, yeah. That's, well, that's it. So, depending on the operation or whomever is running it, or how they want it done, sometimes if they just know there's targets, they'll use us, you know, high value targets. So, we have this round, it's called the Excalibur round. It costs about half a million dollars per round. It comes in a special tube that is l- like, sealed and locked, and you have to get permission from Ottawa to shoot it. And it's only used for VIP targets. So like, we have VIP for everyone. And it will, it's GPS-guided, it's rocket-propelled, and when you fire it, it will... If, if this is a wall, and somebody's standing on this side of it, will hit you right there. We won't touch that wall. It will hit you pinpoint. It'll go right through whatever, concrete, whatever, and then, it will destroy.
- LFLex Fridman
So, it's basically, uh, the same thing as being a sniper, but with a much more damaging weapon.
- KSKelsi Sheren
We don't use that round often. I think it's only been used a handful of times max in Afghanistan that I'm aware of. Again, I haven't, I wasn't there from 2009 until '21, but I, I know people that still deployed in that, in those units, and I don't know that it was used very often. But the regular rounds, so there's HE, there's LOOM. So, HE is high explosive. There's LOOM. You shoot that, it explodes in the sky, it lights up the sky for the infantry below.
- 45:44 – 1:03:29
Weapons training
- KSKelsi Sheren
- LFLex Fridman
So, uh, what ... Can you talk about the rocket launcher-
- KSKelsi Sheren
Karl Gs. Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... uh, and maybe, uh, any other-
- KSKelsi Sheren
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... eng- for both engineering, actually ... To me, those guns are very interesting from an eng- engineering perspective too.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Well, they sh- they should be. They're fascinating when you take them apart, and you see how small the parts get down to, and how, how necessary every single little piece is to make that thing run. And even without the tiniest little BB smaller than a piece on there, an artillery gun might not run. So, we were trained on Karl Gs, um, I think they're called M72s, which are disposable rocket launchers. I'll back up. Karl Gs are around ... I don't know the exact millimeter of the round. It's been a while since I shot them. We only did those in training. But essentially, it takes m- most people, one person can fire it, you know, effectively hold it and fire it. It takes another person to load it.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- KSKelsi Sheren
So, you put it onto your shoulder, and it weighs, I would ... I don't know, 30 pounds, 40 pounds? I-
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, wow.
- KSKelsi Sheren
... can't remember. It's been a minute. It's been a minute.
- LFLex Fridman
But one person can carry it?
- KSKelsi Sheren
Oh. Well, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Okay.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Are there-
- LFLex Fridman
I don't know. It just seems like a rocket launcher's a pretty, uh, intense kind of device that just-
- KSKelsi Sheren
It for sure is. I mean, it's ... The diameter. I can't even tell you the diameter. They, they're about that big. I mean-
- LFLex Fridman
And it goes on your shoulder, and it's-
- KSKelsi Sheren
It goes on your shoulder, and then it has a little sight that pops out, that's almost like plastic-like, which is kind of funny, 'cause it reminds me of like the, uh, little, um, green army men.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- KSKelsi Sheren
It just... I just felt so flimsy to me.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- KSKelsi Sheren
I was like, "This is hilarious." And then another person stands behind you and opens the hatch. And so, there's this, there's these two, um, levers, and you just kinda open it. And then the back end, which is flared, so it's just a tube, and then it's flared. That will open it and drop down, and you load a round into that, and then you load it back up.
- LFLex Fridman
Got it.
- KSKelsi Sheren
And you're never supposed to stand behind it, because the blast behind it will kill you. It's ... Yeah. But in my case, when I fired it, it was me and another individual. Um, I wanna say, it wasn't Sarah Pellegrin, but it was another girl that was smaller, and the person is supposed to wrap around your waist, and tuck low and hold your stability in. We were just aiming at tanks that day, and they were just concrete, um, heads, so they would just either ... They would hit and bounce off, or whatever. And so, when my sergeant saw that, he just kinda looked at both of us and was like, "Nah, I'm just gonna ..." And he got real low and just like wrapped-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- KSKelsi Sheren
... both of us. (laughs) And then we'd fire it, and it feels like you're getting punched in the side of the head on repeat by Jocko.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- KSKelsi Sheren
It ... You lose all your hearing. You just ... Like, just, ugh, snot comes outta your nose, and you're just kind of discombobulated for a minute.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- 1:03:29 – 1:19:36
Pre-Deployment
- LFLex Fridman
time, you're getting deployed. So what was your deployment like? Can you tell the story of your deployment to Afghanistan?
- KSKelsi Sheren
Like, the whole deployment? Getting... Like, actual deploying, not the deployment itself.
- LFLex Fridman
What's the difference between the two?
- KSKelsi Sheren
Well, actually getting ready to deploy is a little different.
- LFLex Fridman
So I mean the emotional build-up to it-
- KSKelsi Sheren
Got it.
- LFLex Fridman
... and, uh, some of the, some of the memorable things that kind of, uh, you remember from that experience, both on the excitement, "I get to see battle, I get to be part of this," and the fear, and also, like, being surprised like with the Tim Horton's and all those kinds of things.
- KSKelsi Sheren
So, like, the lead-up before everything-
- LFLex Fridman
Lead-up.
- KSKelsi Sheren
... like, shit hit the fan? Okay, cool. So (laughs) w-
- LFLex Fridman
You're such a fascinating person, but yes, yes.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Something like that.
- LFLex Fridman
Yes.
- KSKelsi Sheren
I've been called-
- LFLex Fridman
Many things-
- KSKelsi Sheren
Yeah, fascinating is new.
- LFLex Fridman
... that start with the letter F.
- KSKelsi Sheren
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
No, I don't know. I don't know many words with F. Okay, so the build-up-
- KSKelsi Sheren
So-
- LFLex Fridman
... to the, uh, deployment.
- KSKelsi Sheren
So for... The build-up for the deployment, I was in Quebec, and my unit was deploying from Quebec. And at that time, you kind of get your marching orders, you know you're deploying. I knew I was deploying before I even graduated. That's how much they needed people. So once I did all that training, on graduation parade day, a couple men from Quebec, in uniforms, came over and said, "You, you, you and you are all being posted to Baquiatse, and you're gonna deploy with us in April." So that's how I found out I was deploying.
- LFLex Fridman
Why was there such a need for troops in Afghanistan? Is that, is... That was a well-known thing that, that there's-
- KSKelsi Sheren
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
... a scaling up of troops and-
- KSKelsi Sheren
Mm-hmm. 2007 on, Canada really started taking a combat role. Before, it was very much more a UN type deal where doing what we normally do in most wars, where we just, we wear blue and we don't shoot anyone. And so we're there to help. And so they were really, they were scaling up, and there wasn't a lot of people in those, uh, trades initially, I think, when the war kinda started, so Canada really started to scale. And so when I got to Quebec, we've kind of found out, "Yeah, we're deploying." And it was a weird situation, because I have never actually been at a unit on a non-deployable unit. So I don't know what they do day-to-day that's different from what I did; I just know what I did. So we would do things like, in the morning, we would get up and we would meet for PT at 5:00 AM, and that would include going for a 10K run, or playing ball hockey for a few hours in the gym, or lifting weights (laughs) together, or, you know, just going on a ruck march, a long ruck march. So just stuff like that. You would have a shower, you would meet, and then you would just sit around the, the regiment. You would just sit around the regiment. And you would... If there was busy work, you'd mop the floors, you would clean weapons. There wasn't a whole lot until there was a whole lot to do.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- KSKelsi Sheren
We did a lot for a while, and then we went away on workup training to Texas for a week. We came down here and we did live fire with, um, with our other troop that was gonna be with us. So Alpha, Alpha had two guns, and two guns has two groups of people. And so we all would go down to Texas, and we did live fire here for a week. And I ended up getting gastro, which was awesome, so thanks for that.
- LFLex Fridman
From?
- KSKelsi Sheren
Oh, apparently there was, uh, they were having water problems and sanitary problems, so everyone was getting it on the base. So it-
Episode duration: 4:06:05
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