2 Powerful Tools to Create Healthy Connections | The Mel Robbins Podcast [ENCORE]

1. 0:00 – 5:25

   Intro

   1. MRMel Robbins0:00

      (ticking sound) You are going to finally get some answers to questions that I am sure have been on your mind for a long time. Questions like, "Why do I always feel left out in my friend group? Why do I always date the same losers over, and over, and over again?" The answer is attachment theory. You're about to learn that attachment style impacts every relationship, your friendships, your work colleagues, your family, yourself, because attachment style is all about you and how you show up in relationships, and that's why it impacts everything. (instrumental music plays) Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to another incredible episode of the Mel Robbins Podcast. So, it's summer season, at least here in the United States. I just opened up my email, and there was the final email of the year from our son's public high school, and it opened up with a line from the assistant headmaster basically saying something about the summer rhythm. And summer's such an amazing time of year. It's summer here in the United States, and for me, that means, oh my gosh, the kids are gonna be home, even the ones that work and don't live near us. They always come home for the summer. And I also see my family, which I absolutely adore. And when you get together with your friends and with your extended family, don't you wanna just all get along when you get together? I've been thinking a lot about that theme, because one of the highlights of our summer is that we always rent this beach house, and my parents come from Michigan, my brother and his wife come from Chicago with their two kids, and then all five of us and our two dogs pile into our cars and drive down to this beach house. And for one glorious week out of the year, we are packed into that house. So, the question becomes, with 11 family members under one roof, how the heck do you get along when you all get together? I'll tell you a simple secret: attachment styles. What are attachment styles? Well, attachment styles are really interesting, because attachment styles are nothing more than how you give and receive love, and every single person that you know has a particular attachment style. So your mom, your dad, your brother, your sister, your kids, your spouse, your friends, your boss, every single human being that you know gives and receives love in a particular way. And this goes way beyond the five love languages. This is something that has to do with human development. There are four types of attachment styles. And what I love most about this framework is that when you know your own attachment style, how you give and receive love, you will be less likely to be triggered by the people around you. And when you understand somebody else's, like you can sit around a loud, boisterous, long table where the family's gotten together and it's a big barbecue and somebody's pissed off at somebody else 'cause they said something about something else and somebody's rolling their eyes and that one's drinking too much. You can scan the table after the conversation you're about to hear today and be like, "Ooh, that's avoidant attachment. Ooh, that's anxious attachment. Ooh, that's just... Ooh, that one's pretty secure." And when you can understand how somebody gives and receives love, it will change absolutely everything about your relationships. Why? Well, because you won't take things personally, which means you won't get triggered, which means when the you-know-what hits the fan, you're gonna be the calm, centered, collected adult in the room. And trust me, that makes getting together a whole lot better. So here's what we're gonna do today. To prepare you for the season of summer, vacations with friends, piling into an Airbnb with 18 other people that you've split it with, that beach share house, that long extended vacation with family, that motor home trip that you've booked with the kids, we're gonna make you enjoy it, because you're about to learn all about attachment styles, what they are, how to identify them in other people, and what tools you can use to help all of you get along. So, how are we gonna do that? Well, I have tracked down one of the world's leading experts on attachment theory. Her name is Dr. Marisa Franco. She's a psychologist, a professor at the University of Maryland. She's also the New York Times bestselling author of the book on attachment styles and how they impact your friendships. That book, it is called Platonic, and don't you worry, I'm gonna put all her information in the show notes, just like always. And that's important, because it's not just your romantic relationships. You're about to learn that attachment style impacts every relationship, your friendships, your work colleagues, your family, yourself, because attachment style is all about you and how you show up in relationships, and that's why it impacts everything. So, let's get you feeling secure and get Dr. Marisa Franco on the line, people. Dr. Franco, I am so excited that you're joining us. Thank you.

   2. MFDr. Marisa Franco5:16

      I'm so happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

   3. MRMel Robbins5:18

      In your work, you describe four attachment styles. And so the first one is secure. What does that mean?

2. 5:25 – 6:57

   Let’s begin with the first style. What is a secure attachment style?

   1. MRMel Robbins5:25

   2. MFDr. Marisa Franco5:25

      Secure. Secure, you are comfortable giving and receiving love. You trust that other people love you. You can bring up conflict very level-headedly. Your skill is really perspective-taking. When something happens in your relationships, you are thinking about the other person's needs and your own and how to balance both of your needs. You tend to be a really good friend. You're more likely to initiate friendships, less likely to end friendships, more likely to maintain them, um, you know, very comfortable being vulnerable, but in a flexible way, whereas, you know, anxious people, you'll see them be vulnerable, vulnerable, vulnerable. Other people aren't responding and they're still pushing vulnerability, whereas secure people are like, "If you're not responsive to this, I'm gonna become less vulnerable." They tend to look for relationships with other people that are healthy, right, because-

   3. MRMel Robbins6:08

      Mm-hmm.

   4. MFDr. Marisa Franco6:08

      ... their assumption is that, "I'm lovable and I deserve to be loved by other people."

   5. MRMel Robbins6:13

      So, at the basis of somebody with a secure attachment style-... you have an assumption that you are lovable-

   6. MFDr. Marisa Franco6:20

      Mm-hmm.

   7. MRMel Robbins6:20

      ... and that you deserve to be loved. And-

   8. MFDr. Marisa Franco6:22

      Yeah, it's kind of like you're on your own side, right? Like, you're-

   9. MRMel Robbins6:24

      Is there anybody on the planet like that?

   10. MFDr. Marisa Franco6:26

       (laughs)

   11. MRMel Robbins6:26

       I just, you know... (laughs) Can you introduce me to them? I, I... (laughs)

   12. MFDr. Marisa Franco6:33

       (laughs)

   13. MRMel Robbins6:33

       I, I'm not kidding.

   14. MFDr. Marisa Franco6:35

       Yeah.

   15. MRMel Robbins6:35

       Um, 'cause it feels like that's a very whole and, uh, safe and healthy human being.

   16. MFDr. Marisa Franco6:45

       Yeah. And attachment is a spectrum, right? So nobody's fully secure, just like nobody's fully anxious or nobody's fully avoidant.

   17. MRMel Robbins6:53

       So the second one is anxious. So can you tell us-

   18. MFDr. Marisa Franco6:56

       Anxious.

   19. MRMel Robbins6:56

       ... what your anxious,

3. 6:57 – 8:34

   What does anxious attachment look like?

   1. MRMel Robbins6:57

      what an anxious attachment style might be?

   2. MFDr. Marisa Franco6:59

      So your core fear is that everybody's abandoning you. You tend to see rejection even when it's not occurring. Like, a friend is, like, tired, and you're like, "Oh my god, they're rejecting me, they hate me," or a friend has taken a little longer to respond to you, right? You don't consider other people's circumstances when determining how they're treating you. You just take everything personally. At the neurological level, research finds that your amygdala, which is the part of your brain associated with stress, is more sensitive. It lights up more than people of other attachment styles. Um, you are, you know, kind of passive-aggressive in conflict. You are very self-sacrificing until you sort of blow up because you can't take it anymore, right? Your relationships just tend to be kind of unbalanced. It's you giving, giving, giving until you can't anymore, and then you sort of just pull away. Uh, you're not very flexible. You can be kind of controlling, again, because, like I spoke about earlier, you need other people to soothe your emotions. So when someone is doing something and you feel triggered, you almost have to try to control them to get you to soothe your own emotions. So-

   3. MRMel Robbins8:02

      Hmm.

   4. MFDr. Marisa Franco8:03

      ... a- anxiously attached people, they're almost, like, they're, like, kind of avoidant towards themselves. Like, they'll, their internal dialogue is like, "I'm too much." You know, "These feelings aren't okay," right? They very much invalidate their own feelings and emotions, which is part of the reason why they really need other people to validate themselves.

   5. MRMel Robbins8:21

      You basically just described me. I don't know if you knew that this was a therapy session for Mel Robbins-

   6. MFDr. Marisa Franco8:25

      (laughs)

   7. MRMel Robbins8:25

      ... but Dr. Franco, we just have a diagnosis now.

   8. MFDr. Marisa Franco8:28

      (laughs)

   9. MRMel Robbins8:28

      Let's talk about the third attachment style, avoidant.

   10. MFDr. Marisa Franco8:32

       Yeah, so avoidant

4. 8:34 – 10:02

   Avoidant attachment-type people have a hard time trusting.

   1. MFDr. Marisa Franco8:34

      people, they fundamentally don't trust others. They think, "If I get close to you, you are going to harm me." So they don't get close to others. They might ha- they don't initiate as much. They're more likely to end friendships, more likely to ghost on others, not as emotional, very, struggle so much with vulnerability, not only in themselves, but other people. Like, if you're, if you're vulnerable with someone who's more avoidant, they might pull away from you, right? In, in relationships, it feels like there's a dance with them, where you feel like you're getting close to them, and then all of a sudden they sort of back away. Uh, they tend to ignore problems. They minimize them. They ignore conflict. They talk like everything's always okay and why are you making a big deal of them? Like, they have this assumption that people shouldn't have needs, both them and other people. And so when it comes to friendship, they're sort of like low-effort and low-reward. They don't put a lot of effort into their relationships, and they also feel very disconnected from other people.

   2. MRMel Robbins9:32

      Hmm. And then you said there was a fourth one. It's not quite organized, meaning that the style is the style when it comes to connection or, like, trying to connect, but that it's, uh, this fourth one that's a little bit more disorganized, you said. So can you explain-

   3. MFDr. Marisa Franco9:50

      Yeah.

   4. MRMel Robbins9:50

      ... a little bit more about that one?

   5. MFDr. Marisa Franco9:52

      Yeah, so this disorganized, it's, it's people that have really grown up in more extreme situations, like abuse, and so they have to sort of pull out the whole toolbox of strategies to

5. 10:02 – 11:32

   Those who experienced high-trauma situations are more likely to have this style.

   1. MFDr. Marisa Franco10:02

      try to find safety. So it's, it's sort of like they kind of flip between anxious and avoidant depending on how you're interacting with them. You know, once you get closer to them, they all of a sudden might become avoidant and feel a sudden need to very much withdraw. It's like they feel this duality, like, "I really wanna connect with people, but I'm also so petrified of connection." And it puts them in a bit of a freeze state. Like, "There's this feeling that I'm kind of, like, paralyzed. I don't know what to do in this relationship. I don't know whether to come close or to pull away, because I have both of these needs that feel so strong within me."

   2. MRMel Robbins10:36

      Why, Dr. Franco, do attachment styles matter?

   3. MFDr. Marisa Franco10:41

      Hmm. Yes. So our attachment style really impacts how we give and receive love, and thus our ability to build healthy relationships with other people.

   4. MRMel Robbins10:55

      Wow. Does everybody have an attachment style?

   5. MFDr. Marisa Franco10:59

      Yeah. We all have an attachment style. It's basically like, um, we all come into new relationships, which, with a set of assumptions, and those assumptions define our attachment style.

   6. MRMel Robbins11:12

      Okay. So can you give me, uh, we know the w- the four attachment styles we've already talked about, secure, avoidant, anxious, and disorganized.

   7. MFDr. Marisa Franco11:22

      Disorganized, yeah.

   8. MRMel Robbins11:23

      Can you give me four signs of each attachment style?

   9. MFDr. Marisa Franco11:27

      Sure, yeah. So let's think about this practically in our relationships. If you're with someone

6. 11:32 – 11:45

   What do these attachment styles look like in real life?

   1. MFDr. Marisa Franco11:32

      securely attached, you set a boundary with them, they accept the boundary (laughs) . They don't try to push it, change it. They don't suddenly pull away 'cause you set that boundary. Um, if you're with someone securely attached, they're

7. 11:45 – 23:17

   Is it easier to identify attachment styles in yourself or others?

   1. MFDr. Marisa Franco11:45

      comfortable being vulnerable. You'll see that they're being vulnerable with you, but almost in a more reciprocal way. Like, they'll be vulnerable, they'll wait for you to be vulnerable back, then they'll be more vulnerable. Uh, whereas someone avoidantly attached really won't be able to be vulnerable. If someone is securely attached, they can, they can address you directly, but not confrontationally. So let's say this is in a, a friendship context, right, where, you know, it feels like the friendship has been one-sided. The securely attached friend will say, "I love you. I wanna be close to you. And I've noticed I've been the one reaching out, and that's been hurting me. And I want our friendship to continue, so I figured I'd bring this up."Um, so those are some signs of securely attached people. Anxiously attached people, you know, their core fear is that everyone will abandon them. So you can tell if someone's anxiously attached when they are... They're almost, like, willing to give up their sense of self to be in relationship with other people. So they're, like, hyper-accommodating often (laughs) until it- it really blows up and then- and then they become the opposite. Um, when it comes, they, uh... Anxiously attached people, 'cause they fear abandonment, they're not necessarily good at setting boundaries. So they might agree to things and then it seems like they're resentful about it. We talked about, you know, egoistic giving, that they're generous oftentimes to get people to like them. They're attracted to relationships with people that don't seem to like them very much 'cause they've learned that they had to earn love. So you'll see an anxiously attached per- person having these friendships with people or these relationships with people that kind of mistreat them because that makes them motivated to earn love, and that's what they learned about love, that it's something that's earned, not freely given. Um, and then avoidantly attached people, you'll know they're avoidant 'cause they're- (laughs) they're never vulnerable. You- you don't feel like you really know them. When you maybe do have a moment of intimacy and closeness, they suddenly pull away and you're like, "What the heck is going on?" They have tr- they have a lot of shame, but they don't really admit to it, so they- they're really... Struggle with things like apologizing, whereas a anxiously attached person's gonna over-apologize. A- avoidantly attached person's gonna say, "No, this is not my fault. This is kind of your fault." Um, they just don't tend to put much effort into their relationships, so if you feel like, "Man, this person, I'm trying to connect with them. They're not really meeting me there," and that person might be more avoidantly attached, like, "I can't get them to, like, try. (laughs) They're not really trying," um, that might be a sign of avoidantly atta- avoidant attachment. That being said, of course, attachment is not stagnant. In different relationships, we can have different attachment styles based off of the attachment style of the other person, so, you know, it's hard- it's hard to say based on your s- your interactions with one person what their attachment style is.

   2. MRMel Robbins14:42

      What about somebody who's disorganized? What are some of the signs that you're- you're kind of in a relationship or a friendship with somebody who has a disorganized attachment style?

   3. MFDr. Marisa Franco14:53

      Yeah, so the disorganized attachment style is it's not organized, right? So it feels like chaos. Sometimes they want you to get really close. Sometimes they're pushing you away. Um, sudden withdrawal. Um, they're- they're- they have trouble regulating their emotions because their relationships have not helped them do that in the past, you know? People have not validated their feelings, so- so you might get more, um, escalation, more anger, um, they might be interpreting your actions with a lot of negative intent, like, "You're going out of your way to harm me, to kind of destroy me," and- and so it'll- it'll kind of feel chaotic. Like, you kind of will be like, "What is going on? Like, I thought we were just connecting," and they have a- a- a kind of very different interpretation of the situation. And usually with a disorganized attachment style, there's a history of a pretty l- a pretty brutal background, like a- a-

   4. MRMel Robbins15:49

      Hmm.

   5. MFDr. Marisa Franco15:49

      ... history of some sort of abuse in childhood.

   6. MRMel Robbins15:54

      Is it easier to spot someone's attachment style in yourself or in somebody else?

   7. MFDr. Marisa Franco16:02

      You know, (laughs) one way that I hear other people's attachment style is, like, how they perceive other people. So, (laughs) you know, the- the insecure attach... You- with anxious people, you hear them say, like, "All my relationships are fragile," or, "Everybody's gonna kind of abandon me," and the avoidance, you'll hear them say, "Nobody can be trusted," right? And when you have this one template about everybody, it's a sign that it's not actually everybody 'cause you're not actually discerning each person. You just are coming in with this understanding and superimposing it onto the present, which is what attachment style is really. Um, so when I hear someone's secure though, they'll- they always try to give people the benefit of the doubt while having boundaries, so they'll say things like, "I had to love that person from afar," and they can admit that-

   8. MRMel Robbins16:46

      Hmm.

   9. MFDr. Marisa Franco16:47

      ... even when I had... I d- even though we didn't maybe... Like, when they talk about their exes, there'll be some complexity, like, "It didn't work out for this reason, but I like them for this reason," instead of, like, a, "My ex was, you know, just evil." (laughs) Um, so you'll- you'll hear that complexity with securely attached people, and you'll hear them trying to- trying to be as loving as possible to people while also having them recognize what they- they need for themselves, so kind of both things. There's just more nuance with securely attached people, and avoidant... I'm sorry, I'm answering your previous question, but I'm realizing so- I have so many more thoughts on this. Whereas avoidantly attached people actually have memory issues because they block out their emotion. If you ask them to talk about things, they, um, are not very expressive. Like, it's hard to get them to describe things. It's hard to get them to describe what they think or what they feel because our emotions are big indicators of what we think and feel, and our opinions, and our internal world, so it'll almost feel like, hmm, with someone avoidantly attached, it's like, yeah, it- it- it... The conversation is maybe... When... Specifically when you talk about relationships, the conversation doesn't go as- as deep, whereas, um, anxiously attached people, their memory, they tend to misremember things and remember things as more negative than they actually were.

   10. MRMel Robbins18:04

       Hmm.

   11. MFDr. Marisa Franco18:04

       Um, so that's a really interesting quirk of attachment theory and memory, but, you know, back to your major question, which was, is it easier to recognize in yourself than someone else? Honestly, I think anxiously attached people tend to be so hungry for information as to how to improve, so (laughs) when I talk, anxiously attached people are ready, you know. They follow up with me and they're like, "That's me." Like, "I'm anxiously attached. I cling. I'm so afraid everyone's gonna abandon me. I think everybody's judging me." (laughs) So I- I- I think often anxiously attached people, they hear, you know, the basics of attachment theory and they kind of, you know, quickly see themselves in it. That's not happened to me as much with avoidantly attached people. Again, they struggle with vulnerability, so I imagine it would be harder to say, "I'm avoidantly attached and I've had these struggles in the past." Um, avoid-

   12. MRMel Robbins18:49

       So if you were... If...

   13. MFDr. Marisa Franco18:50

       Yeah.

   14. MRMel Robbins18:50

       I have a question about that 'cause that's fascinating.

   15. MFDr. Marisa Franco18:52

       Sure.

   16. MRMel Robbins18:53

       If you...... are avoidantly attached and you're listening to somebody talk about attachment theory, given that somebody that has an anxious attachment style might immediately self-diagnose, might immediately see themselves, what is an, what is a- an avoidant attachment style person likely to experience as they're learning about attachment styles-

   17. MFDr. Marisa Franco19:20

       Mm-hmm.

   18. MRMel Robbins19:20

       ... and considering themselves as they're listening to you, Dr. Franco?

   19. MFDr. Marisa Franco19:25

       Yeah, discomfort. (laughs) Um, you know, when, when you get deep with avoidantly attached people or you, um, try to get them to acknowledge some of their wounds, they feel very uncomfortable (laughs) with that and will kind of, maybe they'll stop listening, honestly. I mean, some, it, this, this obviously depends, and honestly, there's some research that finds that if you're in a relationship with someone who's avoidant but has humility, there's a lot better outcomes, whereas the, if the avoidant person is like, "Everything's your fault and I'm fine and you're being sensitive and," right? Um, then that's, it's gonna be really hard to, to connect with that specific form of, of avoidant attachment. But, so th- there has to be, you know, with an avoidant attachment, a willingness to, to, to look at yourself and to be conscious of your patterns, which I think anxiously attached people tend to be more willing to do. You know, if you're having conflict with an avoidant person, often they are just stonewalling or they're ghosting-

   20. MRMel Robbins20:24

       Mm.

   21. MFDr. Marisa Franco20:24

       ... or they're minimizing or they're saying like, "We're not gonna talk about this." Like, a- basically anything related to relationships and intimacy really scares and overwhelms avoidantly attached people. Like, you know, sometimes we think of anxiously attached people as sensi- more sensitive in that they get really overwhelmed when a relationship's not going well, but so do avoidantly attached people. They just express it, they express that sensitivity through removal. Like it's, it's they can't, they can't, they're so overwhelmed emotionally by relationships, by intimacy, and so they're stonewalling, which is a sign of being emotionally overwhelmed. They're being closed off, they're being dismissive because it's too emotionally overwhelming to look at some of their own patterns because fundamentally, avoidantly attached people have a lot of shame. If you tell them they've made a mistake, they have this core belief that, "I am a failure, that I am deficient." They probably won't admit that to you, (laughs) um, right? But any time you try to offer a critique to an avoidantly attached person, th- that you might trigger that core wound of, "I'm a failure, I'm deficient," which is why it feels, it can feel so hard for an avoidantly attached person to hear some of their patterns and hear some of their dynamics.

   22. MRMel Robbins21:41

       What I love about what you're teaching us is I think that we've gotten to this point, (clears throat) especially when you look at content on social media, where there's so much of a push to cut people out of your life, to label that sort of stonewalling is the word that you just used, but, you know, if you think about it from the standpoint of somebody that has trauma in their past or they have just an avoidant attachment style because of what they experienced as a child, and that it's just overwhelming to feel those emotions.

   23. MFDr. Marisa Franco22:17

       Yeah.

   24. MRMel Robbins22:17

       Like, if you can come at it from a sense of compassion, like, I'm, I, I, I, I love what you're teaching us because through understanding, you might be able to keep somebody in your life instead of just being like, "That's it. You're out. You don't talk. You don't go deep. You're stonewalling me. You're ghosting me," when really there's a, there's a f- another side to this coin, which is, no, this is a person who through their childhood gets very overwhelmed by these emotions-

   25. MFDr. Marisa Franco22:50

       Mm-hmm.

   26. MRMel Robbins22:50

       ... and by intimacy and they protect themselves by removing. This isn't about hurting you. It's about them protecting themselves. Am I-

   27. MFDr. Marisa Franco22:58

       Mm-hmm.

   28. MRMel Robbins22:58

       ... kind of processing this the right way, Dr. Franco?

   29. MFDr. Marisa Franco23:01

       You are, certainly, certainly. Um, and you know, I think if you wanna be in a relationship with someone who's avoidant, it's important that you try to get your needs met in another relationship, right? Like,

8. 23:17 – 27:23

   How do you have a relationship with someone who has an avoidant style?

   1. MFDr. Marisa Franco23:17

      not trying to depend on this one avoidant person to meet all of your needs. The more that your needs are met elsewhere, the more you can be flexible with the person that's more avoidant, right?

   2. MRMel Robbins23:28

      Hmm.

   3. MFDr. Marisa Franco23:28

      So the more that I feel like in another relationship makes me feel secure, another relationship I can be very vulnerable and deep, another relationship I feel, um, really loved and valued, right? Then you kind of have your cup full enough to be able to be more flexible with that avoidantly attached person who's like, "You know, we had some intimacy, now I need a breather (laughs) and I need to kind of pull away for a while." Um, but I, I do think that we should challenge avoidantly attached people to say that it's okay that you need boundaries around intimacy and it's okay that intimacy scares you, but you also need to fill people in. Like, you have to just say, be able to say, like, "Hey, I'm a little overwhelmed right now. Like, I need, like, about a week and then I'll, I'll come back and we can talk about this," right? Instead of not communicating anything and just sort of, um, of ghosting (laughs) on people 'cause that, that hurts people a lot. So, so e- you know, I think on both ends-

   4. MRMel Robbins24:27

      Does it hurt the person who's avoidant when they ghost? Does that contribute to shame-

   5. MFDr. Marisa Franco24:33

      Does it hurt them?

   6. MRMel Robbins24:33

      ... or is that just a way to just kind of, you know, 'cause like you, we-

   7. MFDr. Marisa Franco24:37

      You know, yeah.

   8. MRMel Robbins24:37

      Sorry. Go ahead.

   9. MFDr. Marisa Franco24:39

      So what, (sighs) what we see the pattern being, like, is anxiously attached people think too much about other people and not enough about themselves (laughs) and avoidantly attached people think a lot about themselves and their own needs and not as much about their impact on other people. So, um, you know, the anxious person being willing to completely sacrifice their sense of self and do whatever their partner needs and they're not actually happy-... but they still feel like they're in a relationship with another person, which is not actually the goal, right? The goal isn't to be in a relationship at all costs. It's to, like, be in a relationship that elevates you and helps you express who you are and, you know, makes you feel happier. Um, but the avoidantly attached person, they're very... It's like when you, you're negotiating with someone, and they have all the resources and all the power.

   10. MRMel Robbins25:23

       Hmm.

   11. MFDr. Marisa Franco25:23

       Like, it just tends to be the anxiously attached person who's adjusting to the avoidantly attached person, 'cause the avoidantly attached person is like, "Well, I'm okay alone. I'm okay independent. I don't really need these relationships with other people." But you will find that avoidantly attached people, they tend to have, like, a phantom ex, where while they're in a relationship, they don't appreciate it. But then when it's over, they look back on it. Once they're, like, avoidant, they call these, like, deactivating strategies, which is, like, basically at some point, this avoidant side of them really takes over, and all they can think about is needing space and feeling suffocated and needing boundaries. It's, like, kind of like crisis mode. But once they have that space, that deactivating side moves away, and they tend to look back on these relationships and miss them and feel lonely and realize that they do also really need connection. So it's... The avoidantly attached person is kind of in this very stuck place where it's like, one side of me really needs connection, and another side of me is so afraid of it.

   12. MRMel Robbins26:23

       Yeah.

   13. MFDr. Marisa Franco26:23

       Afraid of it because, "I think if you get too close, you're gonna harm me." That is what the avoidantly attached person sees. "I think if you get too close, you're not actually gonna like who I am. You're gonna see me as less than and deficient and a failure," right? So, so there's... They can't decouple intimacy for its beauty and its feelings of connection and meaning from intimacy as a threat, as a sign of betrayal, as a sign of being judged, as a sign of being ultimately rejected. So, um, once, you know, once that side of threat- once that piece of threat take... The piece of threat takes over, and they ghost, and they might actually feel relieved from being separated from the relationship at first. But then, as that deactivating part sort of melts away a little bit, they're, they start to grieve. They'll have a more sort of delayed grief process around the relationship.

   14. MRMel Robbins27:13

       Hmm. Can you have, uh, more than one attachment style?

   15. MFDr. Marisa Franco27:19

       Yeah. Yeah. You can. Um, like I said, in each different relationship,

9. 27:23 – 29:31

   Can you have more than one attachment style?

   1. MFDr. Marisa Franco27:23

      you can have a different attachment style, and that is... It makes sense, right? 'Cause if someone is very anxious and is like, "I need all your time and attention, and you need to be showing me that you love me all the time," right, you're gonna be like, "I need some space. I need some me time. I'm losing myself to try to, you know, reassure you in all these ways." And if someone's super avoidant, and they're very distant, and you're, like, trying to connect with them, and they're always pulling away. You're gonna feel pretty anxious, right? Where it's like, "Oh my gosh." Like, "I feel insecure. Do they actually like me?" Um, so, so it is a dynamic, and in different relationships, we can see different parts of our attachment style coming out. Uh, there's also a really fascinating theory called Internal Family Systems theory, which is this idea that we ha- we all have multiple selves within us. Like, our sixth grade self, um, that was bullied is still within us. And, you know, our- our ch- inner child self that was like five years old and going through what we did in our family life is still within us. And at different moments, each of these selves can kinda come out and take over. And, you know, if you follow that framework, like, each of your selves can have a different attachment style. But the goal of internal family systems is to be led by your highest self at any given time. Um, your highest self is like your most adult self that is most centered and stable and loving and compassionate. And that self, that highest self within us is all- within all of us is secure. Like, I do believe all of us have a piece of us that is securely attached. The more we can access that self, the more we'll feel secure in our relationships.

   2. MRMel Robbins29:02

      Well, that sounds like good news. So, (laughs) it sounds like, uh, within each one of us is a person or a self that is capable of secure attachments. So, are you saying that if you can start to identify your default attachment style and see it as a lens and an opportunity for growth and improvement, that it is possible to change your default

10. 29:31 – 33:57

    How can you develop a more secure attachment?

    1. MRMel Robbins29:31

       attachment style and become more secure?

    2. MFDr. Marisa Franco29:33

       Yes. So like, I guess it's called like internalized secure attachment, where you have to start treating and talking to yourself like that secure attachment figure that you maybe didn't have. So, um, you know, when you're feeling a strong emotion, being able to tell yourself, "It's okay that you feel this way. Like, I'm right here with you." Um, and, you know, "What are you feeling and what do you need right now?" Like, almost being on your own side and being really, really loving toward yourself is like, that's part of the ways that we heal. Part of the ways that we find secure attachment is like, we think about... Like, I'll even... This is like different things that I've done to- to find more security is like singing love songs to yourself. Um, and you know, when you're activated and triggered, realizing that that's not all of you and that there's a piece of you that is still grounded. And what does that grounded part of you want to say to the triggered part of you? What love does it have to give in this moment? It also takes like... What's happening with the insecure attachment styles is they're reactive. They're, um, getting really emotionally overwhelmed, and they're acting based on that sense of emotional overwhelm, right? So the anxiously attached person is like clinging, clinging, clinging, right? And- and it's almost like reflexive. They're not acting with intention anymore. They feel like they're almost kind of hijacked.

    3. MRMel Robbins30:57

       Mm-hmm.

    4. MFDr. Marisa Franco30:57

       And the avoidantly per- attached person's also very hijacked, but instead it's to pull away, pull away, pull away, right? But if we can just like pause and like feel those uncomfortable emotions, like, "Oh my gosh, I feel..."I feel so rejected right now. I feel so abandoned right now. Like where do you feel that emotion in your body? How can you lean into feeling it more deeply? Allow yourself to feel it, right? Because fundamentally this acting out behavior is a way to try to cope with a very difficult underlying emotion, and you could instead of using this acting out behavior, like anxiously attached person demanding things of the other person or clinging to the other person or the avoidantly attached person suddenly pulling away, you can develop your own tolerance for that feeling or emotion that's very uncomfortable so that you don't have to act out in your relationships to protect yourself from it.

    5. MRMel Robbins31:53

       I wanna focus on avoidant or disorganized right now because I really identify personally with anxious attachment, and since you already said that somebody with an anxio- anxious attachment style is kind of prone to self-diagnose and wanna fix it and always be thinking about da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da...

    6. MFDr. Marisa Franco32:11

       Yeah.

    7. MRMel Robbins32:11

       (clears throat) I'm thinking about avoidant now, and I'm thinking-

    8. MFDr. Marisa Franco32:15

       Mm-hmm.

    9. MRMel Robbins32:15

       ... about disorganized because as you go sing a love song to yourself, I personally am like, "Oh, that sounds beautiful."

    10. MFDr. Marisa Franco32:22

        Mm-hmm.

    11. MRMel Robbins32:23

        But Dr. Franco, can we talk to the person who's listening right now who just had a visceral, "That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard"?

    12. MFDr. Marisa Franco32:35

        (laughs)

    13. MRMel Robbins32:36

        No, I'm serious because I-

    14. MFDr. Marisa Franco32:37

        Yeah.

    15. MRMel Robbins32:37

        ... I, I think that for people who are already like, "Yeah, I- I'm sick of being hijacked by my emotions," I am married to somebody who is avoidant. I realized in researching this show, Dr. Franco (laughs) , and getting ready for this interview, I didn't understand attachment style, and yet I have been talking about it in couples therapy for two years-

    16. MFDr. Marisa Franco32:59

        Yeah.

    17. MRMel Robbins32:59

        ... because I'm anxious and my husband is avoidant. And the shame piece that he feels and puts onto himself is something I was unaware of. Like, I've been griping that, "Oh, you know, I'm married to this guy that's really quiet and he doesn't..." (babbles) And trying to draw him out.

    18. MFDr. Marisa Franco33:19

        Yeah.

    19. MRMel Robbins33:19

        And so could you first explain to somebody who's having a, "This is not..." Ugh. I'm, I'm not gonna tell on myself. Why the hell would you do that? Could you explain why it is so important for happiness and confidence and success, these things that we all deserve, to learn how to change and grow toward a more secure attachment, particularly for somebody who's avoidant or disorganized?

    20. MFDr. Marisa Franco33:50

        Hmm. Yeah, here's the thing about avoidantly attached people. They think they're super independent

11. 33:57 – 39:18

    Avoidantly attached people actually do have an underlying need for connection.

    1. MFDr. Marisa Franco33:57

       and don't really need anyone, but that's a defense mechanism against an underlying need for connection that they don't think they can actually fulfill. And I think if you're being really honest with yourself, no matter what your attachment style is, you'll see that you, a part of you really does crave connection, and if you felt like you could find it and feel comfortable and safe with it, that would... It would feel a lot safer for you to admit it to yourself. And I'll also say that you will not know how beautiful connection, deep, profound, sustaining connection is until you find it. Um, that's the only way that you'll be able to judge (laughs) whether you need connection l- in your life or not, right? Because you're thinking you don't need connection, but fundamentally you don't even know what connection is because avoidantly attached people, when they're in relationships, they're not actually vulnerable. They're not sharing anything about themselves. They're not very, like, authentic, to be real. And so that is... They're connecting in a very shallow way and they're saying, when they're saying, "I don't need connection," it's like, "I don't need that," (laughs) which is, you know, arguably, um, not true and deep connection, right? 'Cause it's not revealing and, and you're not actually being known by other people and they're not knowing you and you're not... You know, there's not this giving and receiving of love that's happening. It's kind of just like we're two people that are, you know, in each other's presence, right? And so, you know, I think there's this, um... And what I'm saying is that there's this disjuncture between what the avoidant person doesn't think that they need and what connection actually is and what connection actually can be and how connection can make you feel alive and seen and centered and grounded and supported and lighter, right? Like, those are all the things that true connection will give you that you will miss out on if you're very avoidant.

    2. MRMel Robbins35:54

       Dr. Franco, if you've never experienced that and here you are and you're decades into your life and you've always had this experience of being on the outside, right? And keeping your distance and not trusting people because both your childhood taught you that you shouldn't and can't trust people, right?

    3. MFDr. Marisa Franco36:19

       Yeah.

    4. MRMel Robbins36:19

       And that your own behavior of opting out because of your attachment style has only reinforced that-

    5. MFDr. Marisa Franco36:26

       Yeah.

    6. MRMel Robbins36:26

       ... because you're never stepping toward people, how on earth do you begin to change this if you've never experienced this?

    7. MFDr. Marisa Franco36:36

       Yeah. You have to reconnect with your own emotions. You can't connect with people if you're always suppressing your emotions, which is what avoidant people do, and it starts, I mean, obviously therapy. You know, I think therapy really. There's a... There's therapists that focus on attachment style specifically. I think a lot of, uh, male therapists who see a lot of men tend to do a lot of avoidant attachment work because this is part of how we socialize men and there is a gender...... difference when it comes to attachment style, where women are at least slightly more likely to be anxious, men are slightly more likely to be avoidant. Right? So therapy can help. But it's even, you know, when we start allowing people to reconnect with their emotions, at first they might feel it as like a sensation, right? Like, do you feel a tingling anywhere in your body? Right? And if you had to, if you had to turn that tingling sensation and you had to find a feeling label for it, and we take out the feelings wheel-

    8. MRMel Robbins37:33

       Can you walk us through this? So let's just say for somebody listening right now who literally... Dr. Franco is about to go, "Okay, I'm turning this off."

    9. MFDr. Marisa Franco37:41

       (laughs)

    10. MRMel Robbins37:41

        Um, we're talking to you.

    11. MFDr. Marisa Franco37:43

        Yes.

    12. MRMel Robbins37:43

        And for everybody who has somebody in their life like this, and I'm glad you said the, the piece about the research showing that women tend to be more anxious and men tend to be more avoidant.

    13. MFDr. Marisa Franco37:54

        Mm-hmm.

    14. MRMel Robbins37:55

        And the only reason why I'm saying this is because, as you're very well aware and you wrote about in your book, when it comes to friendship, women are way better at naturally forming communities. And men, every year that you get older, you actually get further and further and further away from those connections of sports teams and fraternities and work friends, and men become more and more and more isolated. In, and, and, you know, we tend to be better as women-

    15. MFDr. Marisa Franco38:29

        Mm-hmm.

    16. MRMel Robbins38:30

        ... connecting and staying with, in friendships where we're airing emotions, and men typically do not. And so I wanna speak directly to somebody who may be hearing and learning about attachment theory for the very first time, they are considering, "Holy cow, I think I'm avoidant."

    17. MFDr. Marisa Franco38:54

        Yeah.

    18. MRMel Robbins38:54

        "I don't like to talk about my feelings. I don't have a lot of friends."

    19. MFDr. Marisa Franco38:58

        Yeah.

    20. MRMel Robbins38:58

        "Other than the person I'm dating or family connection, I don't have this kind of intimacy in terms of emotional support." H- what is an exercise, and can you and I role play it, for somebody that's listening right now to, to just dip your toe

12. 39:18 – 41:44

    These activities will help you start connecting with your body again.

    1. MRMel Robbins39:18

       into the water of trying to experience this connection to your own emotions that you're talking about?

    2. MFDr. Marisa Franco39:27

       Yeah. Yeah, we can, we can definitely do that. One thing that I also just wanted to share briefly for avoidant buy-in, because, uh, it's hard to get avoidant people to, to buy into this, is the physical health implications of your attachment style, um, that in securely attached people, both anxious and avoidant more likely s- than secure people to suffer from mental health issues. Anxiously a- a- a- anxiously attached people have the highest rates of mental health issues, um, a- avoidant attachment, avoidantly attached, somewhere between secure and anxious, and then secure people have the best mental health. Physical health, right? Because avoidant people don't access their emotion, it manifests physically. So if you're avoidantly attached and you're experiencing migraines, headaches, you don't know where you ca- where they came from, gastrointest- intestinal issues, stomach ulcers, and there's like really no... You don't... You have no idea where this is coming from, (laughs) and you're like, "What is happening to my bo- like, why am I in chronic pain?" Right? Like, that's connected to emotional suppression and not releasing your emotions. Um, so that is my, my last plug for finding secure attachment is your he- your health, really, like your physical health and y- how long you live. Um, that's in part predicted by your ability to reconnect to human connection.

    3. MRMel Robbins40:48

       One other thing I would love to add, um, i- in my own experience, and then you can talk about it, Dr. Franco, clinically, is just seeing that my husband is now very clear that he was not only suppressing his emotions, he was numbing them with a daily weed and alcohol habit.

    4. MFDr. Marisa Franco41:08

       Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, you will definitely see that.

    5. MRMel Robbins41:13

       And so what do you... What's the first thing to do? Because the North Star here, everybody, is to become securely attached, not only because of the mental health but the physical health, and just the fact that it's gonna impact the quality of the life that you're living and how you feel as you live that life, and you deserve that. So what's the first thing that somebody that is just realizing, "I think I might have an avoidant attachment style," should do today?

    6. MFDr. Marisa Franco41:42

       Yeah.

13. 41:44 – 53:07

    Here’s how you can create a ‘safe’ space for someone with avoidant attachment.

    1. MFDr. Marisa Franco41:44

       So the avoidant attached person, we, our goal is to help them reconnect with their feelings, reconnect with self-expression, basically find their most authentic self instead of pushing it away all the time. So, you know, clinically, that might start very simply with being like, "What sensations do you feel in your body? Is there a tingling sensation anywhere? Is there pressure on your chest? Is there a lump in your throat? Are you feeling like a headache?" Um, asking them, you know, what sensations are you feeling in their body. And then you present them... You can kind of Google the feelings wheel, or put it in the show notes or something-

    2. MRMel Robbins42:28

       Hmm.

    3. MFDr. Marisa Franco42:28

       ... with this, this wheel of feelings where they can choose from all of these different feelings that they might, they might feel comfortable labeling the sensation that's going on in their body with a certain feeling that's on this feelings wheel. So what feeling would you choose here that represents the sensation that's happening in your body? So it's sort of like a, it's, it's sort of like a language. Like it's kinda like learning a new language, and it's a practice of being able to, throughout the day, reflect and ask yourself, "Okay, like, what is it that I'm feeling right now? Here's a list of feelings. Which of them, when I go through this list, feel like they might resonate with me? Which of them stir something in me?" And then I think we can encourage like avoidantly attached people to literally do anything self-expressive. Anything self-expressive. So, would you journal? Do you wanna make art? Um...Do you want to sing? And I'm saying this and I'm like, I don't know if an avoidantly attached person's gonna buy in. But...

    4. MRMel Robbins43:32

       (laughs)

    5. MFDr. Marisa Franco43:32

       ... anything that in your mind is self-expressive to you, it could be origami. (laughs) What does this, uh, origami piece mean about, um, your own experience that you're going through right now? I think that, um, is also really, really important for that reconnecting with the feelings process. I also think if you're avoidantly attached, there might be one person in your life where you're less avoidant with them-

    6. MRMel Robbins43:59

       Mm.

    7. MFDr. Marisa Franco44:00

       ... because of how safe they make you feel. So could you be a little bit-

    8. MRMel Robbins44:05

       Is there another word for safe, Dr. Franco? So, you know, if somebody's kinda new to clinical or therapeutic language, um, and you're avoidant or disorganized, but there is that one person.

    9. MFDr. Marisa Franco44:18

       Mm-hmm.

    10. MRMel Robbins44:19

        That in our world we're talking safe, but if you're avoidant or disorganized, what, how would you describ- how would an avoidant or disorganized person kinda describe how that person makes them feel? Like themselves?

    11. MFDr. Marisa Franco44:35

        Yeah. Yeah.

    12. MRMel Robbins44:36

        Are they more fun? Do I feel like I can be myself around them? You know what I mean? Like, how might they describe that feeling?

    13. MFDr. Marisa Franco44:44

        So what is gonna make an avoidant person feel very safe is if you don't take their actions personally. (laughs)

    14. MRMel Robbins44:51

        Hmm.

    15. MFDr. Marisa Franco44:52

        If, when they pull away, um, you, they can come back and you'll kind of accept them. If you respect their boundaries, like they say, you know, "I can't hang out right now, I can't, you know, do this right now," and you're sort of like, "Okay, when you're free, when you're comfortable," you're willing to kind of move at the speed of avoidance. Like you can't move too fast with an avoidantly attached pe- person. They need time. They, they move slower in intimacy. Like, avoidantly attached person, you'll hear them say, "It takes longer for me to build trust." And the a- anxiously attached person's like, "I'm gonna drag you along on this journey-"

    16. MRMel Robbins45:23

        (laughs)

    17. MFDr. Marisa Franco45:24

        "... at my speed, 'cause if you're not moving at my speed, I feel like you're gonna abandon me." (laughs) So the avoidant person wants someone that's gonna be able to work on their timeline. So that person that feels safe to them will usually be someone they've known for a very long time. It's someone-

    18. MRMel Robbins45:39

        Oh.

    19. MFDr. Marisa Franco45:39

        ... where they feel like they can express boundaries with or, or their need for separation or autonomy with, and that person can be okay with that and accepting of that. It's someone who they feel like is non-judgmental. You know, if they do share, this person isn't trying to, um, change the way that they feel. They're just willing to kinda listen and accept the avoidant for where it is, right? 'Cause we can't bulldoze people's defense mechanisms. They're there for a reason. (laughs) We have to make them feel safe enough to be willing to pull down these defense mechanisms a little bit. And, yeah, I think the avoidant person will also feel more... I think of safety as, like, how do you feel after hanging out with people?

    20. MRMel Robbins46:24

        Mm.

    21. MFDr. Marisa Franco46:24

        And the avoidant person might, when hanging out with other people, because they never feel really authentic around people, they might feel really drained by social interaction, but with the person that feels safe, they might feel, and this is hard, 'cause avoidant people aren't always in touch with their feelings, but (laughs) not as exhausted, instead more recharged after someone's company.

    22. MRMel Robbins46:47

        This is so fascinating. I want to go through a couple quick questions to further help people reflect on what their own attachment style might be. So how does each attachment style deal with anger?

    23. MFDr. Marisa Franco47:05

        Ooh. So John Bowlby, father of attachment theory, he talks about two types of anger, anger of hope, which means "I use my anger as a signal that I need to heal something in this relationship." So his example is this child that, you know, she was sick when she was really young and her mother left her alone at the hospital 'cause of the hospital restrictions. And they're watching a video of her being alone at the hospital and she's angry. So she turns to her mom and says, "Mommy, where was you? Where was you?" You know? It's vulnerable. It's, it's a vulnerable anger. It's, "I'm angry, so I'm gonna be vulnerable and admit that I'm hurt." Whereas anger of despair, Bowlby argues, is what insecurely attached people express, and it's this, he describes this child, Reggie, and Reggie had different caretakers growing up, and one of them was a nurse. She left to get married. She comes back. Reggie is like, "My very own Mary Ann, but I hate her." So Reggie's angry, and his anger manifests as, "Let me destroy you. Let me get revenge on you so that I don't have to deal with this strong emotion. I have to coddle this strong emotion by destroying this relationship and getting revenge."

    24. MRMel Robbins48:16

        Hmm.

    25. MFDr. Marisa Franco48:16

        And it's fundamentally 'cause the insecurely attached person d- is not aware that it's possible to express yourself vulnerably and get your needs met. Really, they think, you know, "Either I'm not talking about this at all or I'm gonna have to attack you and put you down, because there's no middle ground of me sharing vulnerably that I'm hurt and you listening to me." That's impossible in the eyes of the insecurely attached person. So what we see, you know, in, in anxiously attached adults is they don't, they don't express their needs, they don't express their needs, they don't express their needs. They get completely overwhelmed 'cause they haven't, mm, created that space for them to feel safe, until they blow up and they kind of make these demands and they'll put you down and they'll call you incompetent. They might try to psychoanalyze you, tell you about yourself and all of your-

    26. MRMel Robbins49:08

        (laughs)

    27. MFDr. Marisa Franco49:08

        ... problems, right? It is just, you know, they're gonna character assassinate you (laughs) a little bit is the anxiously attached person. Um, the avoidantly attached person, when they're angry... And, well, here's the other thing you might see with the anxiously attached person, right? If you bring up a problem with the anxiously attached person-They're gonna go into super self-blame. Like, "I'm horrible, I'm awful, I've done everything wrong," and in some ways, they make it all about them in that sort of response, right? Like, it's like, "Hey, you hurt me and now I'm- I'm stuck trying to reassure you because all of a sudden you feel like I've- I'm, like, attacking the very core of your being by telling you there's an issue in this relationship," right? So, so you'll see those sort of poles (laughs) with the anxiously attached person. But the avoidantly attached person, they're angry. Honestly, they're probably not telling you, and then they leave and they just withdraw. And you're like, "What the heck happened? I have no idea." (laughs) "I thought everything was fine." But again, the avoidantly attached person feels like, "If I express a need, you will reject me and maybe even shame me." So, they do not express the need, they do not express the need, they do not express the need, and then they kind of withdraw or pull away. And when you try to approach them with the need, they might tell you you're too sensitive, or you want too much, or you're too fragile, or you need to learn to be more independent, right? Like, this very natural and normal giving and exchanging of needs that happens in any intimate relationship, in their eyes, to need is to, is to be weak, right?

    28. MRMel Robbins50:42

        Hm.

    29. MFDr. Marisa Franco50:42

        Um, so they- they apply that to themselves and they apply that to anyone else around them. So, so they just kind of get angry by pulling away, but then if you get them to engage, they'll also kind of blame it all on you. (laughs) So, sometimes you'll see the avoidant person being like, you know, "It's your fault I'm not attracted to you," or, "You need too much," or, "You're being too sensitive," right? Um, avoidantly attached people, again, have a lot of trouble admit- apologizing and admitting fault because of that core fear, um, of being a failure and being deficient. And so, when you try to address anything, that core fear gets sort of rubbed that, "I'm a failure to you." So, they need a lot of softness, honestly. Like, avoidantly attached people, if you need to address something with them, making sure you're acknowledging everything they did well, you know, "I love that you did this," "I love that you cooked for me," "I loved and appreciated that you, you know, responded to my text message this morning, and I would just add that if this additional thing would happen, could happen, it's gonna make me really happy." Like, they can't... If you try to bring them too much emotion, (laughs) they're getting very overwhelmed. So-

    30. MRMel Robbins51:57

        Hm.
14. 53:07 – 1:03:13

    Do you confuse being triggered with being in love?

    1. MRMel Robbins53:07

       and as I listen and try to absorb everything that you're saying, Dr. Franco, I'm learning more and more that a lot of times the way somebody reacts, particularly in stressful situations or situations where they feel triggered has nothing to do with you and everything to do with their own internal wiring.

    2. MFDr. Marisa Franco53:28

       Exactly, because what's happening in our body is more compelling to us than what's happening in the world, which means that if you're telling me, even very kindly and politely, that like, "Hey, you know, you hurt me," and my body's suddenly on fire and I'm feeling like I'm a failure and I'm feeling so overwhelmed, right? Like, it doesn't matter that you a- approached me very kindly and sensitively. What I'm gonna respond to is the fire that's happening in my body, right?

    3. MRMel Robbins53:56

       Hm.

    4. MFDr. Marisa Franco53:57

       Like, that- and that's even what I'm going to remember about the experience, more so than, you know, how you approach me and the realities of the external circumstance. And that's why attachment style is so tricky, right? Because there's all these signs for all of us that people are loving us on any given day. People are smiling at you, people are holding the door for you, cars are stopping when you wanna cross the street, people are texting you to check in. People are liking your Instagram page, right? But, you know, if your attachment style says people don't love you, you're not gonna read and take in any of that, right? It's- it's like... It's n- how we're impacted by our relationships is- is less about... Well, I can't say less about, but it's not just about what's actually happening, and it's so much about how we're interpreting what's happening, and that interpretation process is our attachment style. It's our interpretation of what's happening, what the- what's happening in the objective world refracted through our lens of our attachment style. And so that- that is why it can get so tricky to get out of your attachment style, 'cause you see in the world all the things that match your reality, right? Like, the avoidantly attached people thinks people are untrustworthy, and you're trying to show up for them so much and be reliable. One time something else happens and you're not able to be- be reliable to them, right? And all of a sudden they're like, "Oh!"It's true, you can't trust people, they're all gonna betray you, right? And it's like, "That person's just being human." (laughs) You have to let people be human. Um, so that's why, like, there's just this huge confirmation bias when it comes with to attachment style that can make it very hard to, to get out of, and why it's so helpful for me personally, and I think for everybody, to learn about and understand our attachment style. To understand our lens, to understand that it is a lens, and it's not just the objective reality of the situation, because through that understanding, we can, we can change.

    5. MRMel Robbins55:53

       I am curious, do attachment styles attract opposites or the same types? I mean, how does that work? 'Cause I often hear people going, "I just keep dating the same loser over and o-" You know what I'm saying?

    6. MFDr. Marisa Franco56:04

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    7. MRMel Robbins56:04

       Like, I, "Why do I always get people that are emotionally unavailable?"

    8. MFDr. Marisa Franco56:07

       (laughs) Yeah. So let's think about it, right? You're, you're dating someone and they're hot and cold, and all of a sudden they pull away and they don't answer your texts when they say that they will. And if you're secure, right, you're like, "Bye." Like, "I feel-"

    9. MRMel Robbins56:27

       (laughs)

    10. MFDr. Marisa Franco56:27

        ... "happy about myself. If you're not gonna treat me in a way that reflects that, I'm gonna find someone else who does," right? Like, they're not willing to endure pain for the sake of being in a relationship. So who is gonna end up with a more avoidantly attached person is the person that's like, "I am enthralled by your inconsistency and I have to get you to like me now. And that's my purpose and my journey. And in some ways, the highs and the lows really excite me," right? Like, the anxiously attached person is going to be more likely to put up with some of the intimacy quirks of the avoidant attachment per- avoidantly attached person, right? Because again, the anxiously attached person's kind of willing to sacrifice their own sense of self to be in a relationship. The securely attached person is not. So i- so anxiously, avoidantly attached people often need anxiously attached people as the glue that will kind of keep them in relationship-

    11. MRMel Robbins57:17

        Hm.

    12. MFDr. Marisa Franco57:17

        ... to each other. So that's why we see a lot of anxiously and avoidantly attached pairings. And you hear a lot of anxiously attached people that are like, "I, I need to earn their love. If they give it freely, I, you know, I'm not attracted to that." Or if someone's totally secure and available, they're like, "Just not feeling it," right? 'Cause they, they confuse them being triggered with them being in love. They confuse-

    13. MRMel Robbins57:40

        Oh, can we talk about that?

    14. MFDr. Marisa Franco57:42

        Yeah. Yeah.

    15. MRMel Robbins57:42

        Confusing being triggered with being in love. Dr. Franco-

    16. MFDr. Marisa Franco57:46

        Yeah.

    17. MRMel Robbins57:46

        ... let's unpack this.

    18. MFDr. Marisa Franco57:48

        Yeah. So, so if you're anxiously attached and you're triggered, someone's triggering your wounds of abandonment and you're feeling high arousal because of that, you're feeling very strong emotions because you're feeling triggered and wounded. It's like hurt. Hurt is like a high arousal emotion, and so is excitement and so is thrill, right? And so it can be easy to feel like, "I like this person because they're making me feel high arousal," which is high arousal's present in pain, high arousal's present in excitement. And so you're being, um, pulled in. You know, it's funny, when I was like more anxiously attached to people, it'd be like I would wanna be with this person until they'd wanna be with me, and then I'd feel like, "Oh, and now I'm less excited (laughs) for some reason," right? And that's a sign that, oh, I was being pulled in by this wound of abandonment that they were triggering that made me want to find my sense of self again through getting them to like me. It was like I was trying to get my sense of self through being in the relationship with this avoidant person. Um, but, you know, in finding more security, it's more like, "I don't like feeling triggered. I don't like feeling like someone's gonna abandon me and they're not gonna show up for me." I no longer feel like that's sexy or enthralling because I have a more positive sense of myself and I look for relationships that reflect my own positive sense of myself. And I'm... An secure person is, like, on their own side and they're wanting to take care of themselves and make themselves-

    19. MRMel Robbins59:23

        Hm.

    20. MFDr. Marisa Franco59:23

        ... feel safe, right? And so they're attracted to places that make them feel grounded and make them feel safe in that way.

    21. MRMel Robbins59:29

        Let's put the, uh, shoe on the other foot and talk about that same trigger versus love from an avoidant attachment person. What would they be feeling in terms of how they collapse, you know, a situation that's triggering with love?

    22. MFDr. Marisa Franco59:47

        So (laughs) here's the confusing thing about attachment. When you're falling in love, it can sometimes replace your attachment style a bit. So you may, it may take you a year to kind of figure out what someone's attachment style is. Like, everything can be going great and you're connecting and there's a lot of intimacy building, and then a year in, once you start living together, you're just like, "Who is this person? Like, all of a sudden they're so closed off. All of a sudden they're so demanding of me. Like, what the heck happened?" It's because, like, all of the, like, chemicals that are released, this cocktail of chemicals when you're falling in love can be so powerful that they might replace some of your underlying wounds and triggers and make you feel-

    23. MRMel Robbins1:00:31

        Hm.

    24. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:00:31

        ... pulled into this relationship, even when you're afraid of intimacy. So you can carry both of those things at the same time. So sometimes you'll see, like, people feeling secure with each other for a year when there's all of this cocktail of emotions, avoidantly attached people feeling comfortable with connection and intimacy, right? And then after a year or after some time, all of a sudden, those avoidant feelings come up and all of a sudden they're like, "I wanna get outta this." All of a sudden they're like, "I need to pull away." All of a sudden they're like, "I feel really suffocated." You know, all of a sudden they're like, "My partner expects too much out of me." And so that, that is the really confusing thing. That's why it's so, like, hard. I don't know, k-k-k pat on the back to all of us who are just able to sustain (laughs) healthy relationships because it's so, it's so, so, so hard. Um, but I think... So I think that's, you know, what, what we can kind of tend to see. And, and I think the avoidant person...... their template for intimacy is that people aren't gonna respect their boundaries, is that, you know, they can't necessarily trust people. So when the anxiously attached person is, like, pushing too much or not respecting their boundaries and demanding a lot from them-

    25. MRMel Robbins1:01:41

        Ahem.

    26. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:01:41

        ... again, they, that's part of their template for intimacy. It's not that someone's gonna be loving and, you know, hear them out and take their perspective into consideration. So, so in that way, the insecurely, uh, the insecure attachment, it kind of fine-tunes our expectations in relationships so that insecurely attached people, because their expectations of others are that other people will relate to them in an ins- insecurely attached way, they're more willing to accept when someone does so-

    27. MRMel Robbins1:02:16

        Hmm.

    28. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:02:16

        ... in their life.

    29. MRMel Robbins1:02:16

        (laughs)

    30. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:02:16

        Whereas the securely attached person, 'cause their expectations of others is that, "You're gonna treat me nicely. You're gonna be loving towards me. You're gonna be accepting of me. You're gonna be, be kind toward me," when people aren't that way, they're like, "This isn't good for me and this isn't a good fit for me."
15. 1:03:13 – 1:07:43

    So how do you find securely attached people to hang out with?

    1. MRMel Robbins1:03:13

       to, to begin the process of building a secure attachment with themselves?

    2. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:03:21

       Find securely attached people. (laughs)

    3. MRMel Robbins1:03:23

       Okay, how, where the hell are they hiding-

    4. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:03:25

       Build relationships. (laughs)

    5. MRMel Robbins1:03:25

       ... Dr. Franco? And your schedule's very busy, so I know you don't have time to hang out with us.

    6. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:03:29

       (laughs) Um, yeah.

    7. MRMel Robbins1:03:32

       How do you know it's a s- how do you know a securely attached person? Like, let's just scan a room. What am I looking for?

    8. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:03:39

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's gonna, I think, take a little while for it to reveal itself, but, like, is this person being vulnerable with you but not oversharing? Which is a, a nuance that's kind of hard to, to interpret or to understand, right? Like, I don't know, are they sharing your life stories with you, their whole life story and their deep-seated trauma the- on the first day? Or are they, like, sharing why the day was hard, they had a struggle today, right? That's, that's the sort of appropriate vulnerability that we see in the securely attached person. The securely attached person is more loving towards you. They're affectionate towards you. They tell you how great that you are. Um, if you bring up an issue with them and you're like, "Yeah, I'd love to hear from you more. Your, our friendship is so important to me." They're like, "Yeah, I'm gonna try to make you feel more love," right? They're responsive to your needs. They don't try to shut your needs down (laughs) or tell you that you're, you know, wrong. Um, the securely attached people has a positive view on others, right? They- if you hear things like, "Nobody can be trusted," or, "Everybody's gonna abandon you," that's a sign of more insecurely attached people, but the secure person is... I don't know, they see the best in people. Um, if you hear them talk about some of their past relationships that didn't work, again, there's that nuance that, "Yeah, this part was good, but this part I really struggled with." They just have more empathy for people, to be honest. Um, that is something that's linked to secure attachment. Empathy, authenticity. You feel as if they're telling you... Like, there's this way that I think inauthenticity can manifest as there's this uncomfortable feeling and instead of myself feeling it, I'm now gonna engage in this defense mechanism. I'm not gonna talk about how I'm so much better than everyone 'cause that person made me feel inferior. The secure person will just say, "That person made me feel inferior," instead of being like, "And I don't even care about them. These are all the reasons why, like, I'm so much better than them anyway," right? There, there's a sense that you're getting, you're hanging out with someone that's kind of more authentic. I don't know. They also just make your nervous system feel calmer, so you're just gonna feel-

    9. MRMel Robbins1:05:31

       Hmm.

    10. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:05:31

        ... a little bit more calm in their company. So those are some signs that you've, like, found a secure person, and the secure person, whether in friendship or in romantic relationship, what's gonna happen is, like, they're gonna keep treating you in a way that's counter to this internalized set of assumptions that you have, this internalized template. And over time, your template is gonna be, start to mold and change because they're giving you evidence that your template isn't necessarily correct. Um...

    11. MRMel Robbins1:05:59

        Wow.

    12. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:05:59

        So that's awesome. (laughs) We all want that.

    13. MRMel Robbins1:06:01

        I love that.

    14. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:06:02

        Yeah.

    15. MRMel Robbins1:06:02

        And is there anything that in the meantime you could add as a habit or something to do every day-

    16. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:06:11

        Mm-hmm.

    17. MRMel Robbins1:06:11

        ... that would help you to start to reconnect and build that connection with yourself while you're scanning the world for more secure people to bring into your life?

    18. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:06:20

        Yeah. I want you to savor a moment of acceptance that you experience every day because insecurely attached people, what they're, they struggle with is feeling safe in relationships, no matter what that relationship is. They're coming to the ga- they're coming into the game with the baggage of this is not safe in different ways, right? So if you're insecurely attached and something happened for you today that made you feel accepted, I want you to write it down. I want you to focus on it. I want you to think about it until you feel some emotion, you feel the acceptance, you feel, you know, the love within your body. Um, you have to be able to savor and receive those experiences of safety and acceptance that as an insecurely attached person you usually just ignore and usually not even register.

    19. MRMel Robbins1:07:08

        So can I see if some of these are examples? So like when a friend comes over for dinner and they bring cinnamon rolls.

    20. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:07:17

        Yeah.

    21. MRMel Robbins1:07:17

        Knowing that they brought you something, a small gesture like that, acknowledging that that is a moment, that's something like that?

    22. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:07:26

        Absolutely. But it can even be so small as like, "Oh, my friend sent me a voice note today. They care about me," or, "My friend commented on my picture that they like it." Like l- like practice, make it a practice to receive love. Like that's really what I'm getting at here. Um, receiving love is not

16. 1:07:43 – 1:14:28

    This is why understanding attachment styles has been a game changer.

    1. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:07:43

       easy. Um, it's something that we need to practice.

    2. MRMel Robbins1:07:47

       I hate that it's not easy.

    3. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:07:48

       I know, right? (laughs)

    4. MRMel Robbins1:07:50

       And is that the bottom line when it comes to attachment theory, that the importance of attachment theory is that when you understand your attachment style, you now have a lens through which to really look at yourself and your inability to receive love? And now you can-

    5. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:08:10

       Mm-hmm.

    6. MRMel Robbins1:08:10

       ... go to work on-

    7. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:08:13

       Mm-hmm.

    8. MRMel Robbins1:08:13

       ... learning how to become secure so you can let love in? Is that what this is truly about at the bottom line?

    9. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:08:18

       Oh, that's so beautiful, Mel. Yes. I love that. I love it. Yes. I think secure people can receive the depths of love.

    10. MRMel Robbins1:08:29

        Mm. This is a recent breakthrough for me. Like it's only, I, it makes me really sad, Dr. Franco, to know that I'm 54 and that I would say it's only in the last two months that I've noticed how much I stonewall love.

    11. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:08:47

        Hmm.

    12. MRMel Robbins1:08:47

        That I'll pour it out, but I block actually receiving it. And so I've started visualizing, um, galley doors in a kitchen, you know, that swing back and forth-

    13. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:08:57

        Yeah.

    14. MRMel Robbins1:08:57

        ... as a tool to help me catch myself when I'm the one putting up the wall.

    15. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:09:03

        Hmm.

    16. MRMel Robbins1:09:03

        And not receiving those gestures that are in your life every day, a s- a stranger smiling, uh, you know, a leaf falling from a tree in the shape of a heart and it's beautiful, or your pet greeting you. Just these moments where love can blow into your life.

    17. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:09:18

        Mm-hmm.

    18. MRMel Robbins1:09:19

        And how much I was not even receiving them until recently.

    19. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:09:25

        Yes.

    20. MRMel Robbins1:09:26

        Recently.

    21. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:09:26

        Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Uh, yeah, it's, it's wild to me how hard it is to receive love, how threatening it is. I think it's so, it's so threatening if you're avoidantly attached because to receive love means to admit that you need it in the first place. So it feels like such-

    22. MRMel Robbins1:09:41

        Hmm.

    23. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:09:41

        ... a vulnerable act. And for the anxious person, it's like, I don't know, it's like receiving love implies that you're like, you're valuable, you're, you're valuable as a person. And r- if you struggle with anxious attachment, you have this unconscious struggle with having low self-esteem, which means that like if people try to treat you like you're valuable, it doesn't match up with how you kind of feel about yourself internally. And that's why it feels threatening. It questions, calls into question your sense of predictability about how the world perceives you and how you perceive yourself, and it can feel like pressure. Like, "Oh, this person values me in this way and I can't actually live up to that." It's like you have imposter syndrome in all of your relationships if you're anxiously attached. So for both attachment styles, it's really, really hard to receive love. It, it, it is a trigger, I think, in its own right when people try to love us. And so being able to work on the practice of receiving love, I think, is really important for finding more security.

    24. MRMel Robbins1:10:35

        Well, Dr. Franco, thank you. Your work is an act of love for all of us.

    25. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:10:40

        Aw.

    26. MRMel Robbins1:10:40

        And, uh, I will tell you that I love you for spending the time with us and pouring into us. And, uh, thank you so much because I feel like this is a really important and hard thing to wrap your, your mind and your heart around, but it's truly life-changing if you can lean into this and see this as a way to let more love into your life, both from yourself, from people like you that are sharing your wisdom, and from just the unbelievable amount of people that are out there in your life just waiting for you to let them in.

    27. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:11:20

        Hmm. Thank you so much, Mel. That is so beautifully put. It's been a fascinating, amazing, revolutionary conversation.

    28. MRMel Robbins1:11:28

        Well, I can't wait to have you back.

    29. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:11:30

        Thank you.

    30. MRMel Robbins1:11:33

        Wow. When I started this interview, I did not expect attachment style to lead us to the topic of your ability to let love in. At the end of the day, that's what I want for you and that's what I want for me, because that's what life is. Life and the purpose of your life is to express and receive love. And look, sometimes receiving love and expressing love can be really difficult when you're splitting an Airbnb with 17 other friends or your family is on your last nerve because you've all been crammed into a beach house or a motor home together. Take a deep breath. Put yourself in pause. Remind yourself that it's not personal. And in case no one else tells you, I wanna tell you, you got this. You're the calm, centered adult and I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to take absolutely everything you just learned today and love those people up and not allow yourself to get triggered. I'll talk to you in a few days. (beep) Wait, grab the cat. He's eating the cake. (beep) You gotta get a photo of him trying to do it. (beep) Oh my god. (gibberish) (beep) It wasn't too like... (clicks tongue)

Episode duration: 1:14:28