The Mel Robbins PodcastBe Confident: Use Body Language to Boost Your Influence & Income | Mel Robbins Podcast [ENCORE]
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150 min read · 30,005 words- 0:00 – 5:51
Intro
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, boy. Are you and I in for a treat today? We are gonna talk about the hacks and tips and tricks and research that you can put to use in your own life so that you appear more confident to other people. It's gonna help you make the impression and the impact with other people that you really wanna make. (upbeat music) Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. Oh, boy. Are you and I in for a treat today? I am super excited to talk to the expert that I have tracked down and gotten on the show for both of us. We are gonna talk about the hacks and tips and tricks and research that you can put to use in your own life so that you appear more confident to other people. How cool is that? See, I wanted to do this topic now because here in the United States, anyway, uh, it's gonna be September soon and fall is always like this second new year. A lot of people go back to school, they go back to work, they think about going to different jobs, they think about changing up their life in September. And so I thought since so many people are taking on new jobs or going back to school, right now is the time for you to have in your back pocket the best research, the best tools, and the best scripts that you can use to do a number of things. Wait till you hear the amount of things you're gonna learn today. First of all, you're gonna learn that there are three things based on the research that you must do in the first 10 seconds of a Zoom call. I bet you didn't even know that there were three things you needed to do. I didn't either. We're gonna give you tips for nailing an interview. You're gonna learn why you keep getting passed over for the promotion. You're gonna learn that a second impression is just as important as the first impression that you make. You're gonna learn why you should never, ever, ever fake a smile. A simple test that you can use to learn what people think about you in the first impression. You're gonna hear the major mistake that you make or a lot of people make when they speak, how to ask for a raise, how to be better at selling. So buckle up because this is gonna be an episode you're gonna wanna bookmark. If you are in real estate, if you are running your own business, if you have one of the social selling or multi-level marketing businesses, this is something you're gonna wanna forward to everyone because we're talking the foundational research, in fact, shocking research out of Princeton that you're gonna hear about that is gonna help you sell more. It's gonna help you be more effective. It's gonna help you get the money that you deserve. It's gonna help you nail that job that you want. It's gonna help you make the impression and the impact with other people that you really wanna make using hacks, tips, and strategies. And by the way, if you're introverted, guess what? So is our expert. So who is our expert? Her name is Vanessa Van Edwards. She's a bestselling author. She is a behavioral investigator. She is one of the world's most respected experts on the topics of charisma, communication, confidence, and influence. She's the founder of the research group Science of People, and she is here. That's right. Vanessa Van Edwards is here in the house and ready to make you and me more effective in just about absolutely everything we do. Vanessa, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. We are thrilled that you are here. And for those of you on YouTube, I'm gonna throw to the interview where I was actually dressed appropriately to talk to somebody of this caliber. And so one quick thing, you subscribe right now. Do not be a moocher on this kind of information. I need you to subscribe. Why? Because I can bring you a brand new video every single day because of the support of the ads that roll here on YouTube. You don't have to listen to the ads on the podcast, so please do a gal a favor and hit subscribe. It means a lot to me. It means a lot to our experts. And that way all new videos just get dumped right into your feed and you don't even have to think about it. I love you. Let's go talk to Vanessa Van Edwards. Well, welcome. I'm so psyched you're here.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I'm so happy to be here. I can't even tell you.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, let's just jump right into it because you have written the book on both charisma and body language, and so I wanna start with what is charisma and why does it matter?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
What people don't realize is that charisma, more than any other attribute, is the single most important aspect of you being successful. It helps you in your relationships, it helps you professionally, helps people take you seriously. It helps you also feel more confident and purposeful in your interactions. So charisma is that missing ingredient that we need to trigger or activate our success.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow. I mean, you hear so much about confidence, you hear about extroverts versus introverts, but how is it that charisma impacts all those things more than your personality or confidence?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
When research looks at highly charismatic people, they find that we are looking for people who are signaling high charisma because it shows all those other things. Highly charismatic people are confident, they are competent, they are warm, they are likable. And so the most amazing aspect of charisma is it can be learned. It is not an innate trait. You don't have to be born with it or not, that anyone can be, can learn how to be more charismatic through a very specific set of cues.
- MRMel Robbins
That's crazy. And you, you say that you
- 5:51 – 7:40
The shocking research from Princeton about how people size you up.
- MRMel Robbins
were very awkward before you leveraged all the cues you're about to teach us. Will you tell us a little bit about what you struggled with?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So what's funny about charisma, I've always been fascinated by this trait. I'm a recovering awkward person. So cr- charisma does not come naturally to me. I've always been fascinated by the cool kids. You know, I watch them and I'm like, "Ugh, how do they know what to do?" And so I was, for many years, trapped by this mistaken belief.... that to be charismatic, you have to be extroverted. You have to be bubbly, you have to be the life of the party. And I am not an extrovert, and so I always thought, "Well, I guess I can't have it. It's an innate trait. You have to be extroverted." What research actually finds is that charisma has nothing to do with your extroversion, your attractiveness, your athleticism, even your intelligence. The actual definition of highly charismatic people, what makes them different is they set, send a very specific set of social signals. Specifically, they are constantly signaling high warmth, so trust, likability, friendliness, along with, and this is the key, a balance of high competence, capability, power, effectiveness. And what's magical about this is if you're with someone and you are drawn into them, you immediately are able to answer two questions: "I can trust you" and "I can rely on you." And so highly charismatic people, that's what they're signaling, warmth and competence at all times.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow. Okay. So let me see if I just can bottom line this.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
So charisma, if you have charisma or you display charisma, I guess, is what I should say-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... if you display charisma, other people are left with the impression that they can trust you and that they can count on you. Is that right?
- 7:40 – 8:32
What exactly IS charisma and what does it look like?
- MRMel Robbins
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes. That is exactly right. And the funny th- the hard part about this is, you can be the warmest, most competent person in the world, but if you don't show those signals, the world does not believe you. And this comes from amazing research out of Princeton University, which found that under-signaling, so not signaling enough, and this is what happens, I think, with very smart people. So most of my students are h- off the charts intelligence, high achievers, and they think, "Oh, my smarts will speak for me." Right? "I, I'm really smart. I can make it through anything. I'm super prepared. I have great answers." And the problem is they under-signal the warmth and competence cues. And what Dr. Fiske found, the creator of this research, she found that without enough warmth, people do not believe your competence. So the problem with smart people is they think their smarts work for them, but if they're not using the right signals, the world literally cannot believe them.
- 8:32 – 9:45
Why high achievers can’t just rely on their intelligence.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
- MRMel Robbins
Wow. That's so... So is this why charisma matters?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So I think of charisma like a lubricant, right? So when we're in social interaction-
- MRMel Robbins
That's sexy. (laughs)
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
(laughs) A social lubricant.
- MRMel Robbins
That's not exactly the word I was, uh, that I thought or the metaphor I thought you were gonna use. Okay. So charisma-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
But it makes everything smooth.
- MRMel Robbins
... is a social lubricant, everybody.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
It keeps it smooth, you know? It, it keeps it smooth. Because listen, my interactions, my social interactions before I learned the science were, like, the opposite of smooth. They were crunchy, like, not in a good way, right? Like-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay. So you said you were awkward. Give us an example. Come on, Vanessa.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I'm a recov- I'm a recovering awkward person. So awkwardness. Let's talk about... Awkwardness is one of my favorite topics. Awkwardness dresses up in different ways. So my awkwardness... And everyone has a different thing, so I'm curious to know if you have any awkwardness, how it dresses up. Some people, they feel awkward because of fear, their fear of b- being rejected, fear of being criticized, fear of saying something silly or sounding stupid. And so their awkwardness will dress up as shutting down. So for me, my awkwardness, I'm an over-thinker.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I'm the person who I get in bed at the end of the night, and I literally rethink every conversation I've had the whole day. (laughs) Right? Or, like, I, I overanalyze
- 9:45 – 16:22
Two types of awkward people and how to tell.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
my answers before I even say anything, which makes me a-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... terrible conversationalist and listener. So my awkwardness would make me shut in, shut down. And so my introverts listening, this is often what happens when you feel awkward. You're afraid of a silence or being judged. You shut in, you close down, you stop talking. Other people, my extroverts, their awkwardness dresses up as something else. Their awkwardness dresses up as showing off, over the top, being a drama queen, talking too much. Some of my extroverted awkward friends, they'll say, "Sometimes I c- I just can't stop talking. Literally, my mouth just keeps going." And so awkwardness is this really interesting way that we try to cover our fear. And so when I say I'm a recovering awkward person, I've had to conquer a lot of internal fear to be able to have interactions that I desperately, desperately wanna have. That could be in a professional setting, sharing my ideas, but it also could be just trying to make good friends, trying to be open with my partner. And so I think that charisma is this lubricant because awkwardness makes our relationships, our conversations, our communication crunchy, awkward, halting. (laughs) We talk too much. We talk too little. There's an awkward silence. We don't know what to do with our hands. Right? We're like, "What do I do with my body language?" We make weird faces. We awkwardly nervous laugh. So my, my goal with charisma, what I have found is that it's a smoother, it's a lubricant, which I just, I, we have to stick with that metaphor.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, it's hilarious.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Even if-
- MRMel Robbins
And it also makes it, it, it, you, when you use the word crunchy about those moments when you feel awkward, that makes a lot of sense to me.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah. Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Because whether you're an over-talker, over-sharer, nervous laugh, interrupting people, because you're extroverted, but you feel afraid of how people are gonna view you, or whether you withdraw because you're afraid, that crunchiness is that sort of disruption you feel internally. And so I love this idea that charisma, which you say is a skill that anybody can develop-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... that charisma helps you be yourself and it helps you be more influential and it helps you enjoy social settings, whether you're introverted or extroverted. That's what, that's what I'm kinda getting from this.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Oh, that's it. And so I think that what...... we're looking for here is a lot of people talk about confidence. And I love confidence, but I am not naturally confident. And so what would happen is I would say, "Just be more confident." Like I would, you know-
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... I'd be, like, trying to mantra myself into it. And if you tell someone who's awkward to just stop being awkward, it, it doesn't work. So it's really cool-
- MRMel Robbins
No, it just makes you more awkward, I think-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... 'cause then you're now focused on the fact that you're awkward.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
It's like a meta-meta, right? Like, I worry that I'm a worrier, and that-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... then makes me worry, you know?
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So... (laughs) Right, so, like, it's like a horrible meta. So what I say is, "Okay. I like confidence, but let's put it to the side for a second. Let's talk about being purposeful." Purposeful is much more impactful and active. It's, it's an active emotion. Okay, so if I say, "I wanna show up in this interaction as highly charismatic. I wanna be my warmest self and my most confident self, and I wanna clearly signal, with purpose, to the other person I am trustworthy and likable, but I can also get it done. I'm powerful and capable." The key here is the balance. Most of us have an imbalance. So there's four segments of the population. This is what the research finds. There's the sweet spot of highly charismatic people, high warmth, high competence. That's the rare birds among us who are able to balance-
- MRMel Robbins
Now can you give us an example of somebody who is highly charismatic?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Let's do the classic, Oprah. Okay. Oprah is highly charismatic, and here's why. She can be in an interview and she can make the other person feel so comfortable they share their darkest secrets. That's warmth.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
That's trust. She can cry with the other person. She can mimic their facial expressions. She... Her warmth literally draws out other people's warmth. However, you also take her very seriously. You know she is smart. She knows her answers. You can't sneak something by her. And that's her signaling, "I'm competent. I'm gonna make sure that I get to the truth here. You can rely on me to ask the hard questions." That's the perfect example. What Oprah does and what most charismatic people do, which I wanna teach everyone who's listening how to do, is you can use charisma like a dial. It's just like a thermostat. So in some situations, when you wanna dial up a little bit extra warmth, you can use more warmth cues. And Oprah does this exceptionally well. In her hard-hitting interviews, she'll dial up competence. She'll hit them with the hard questions.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Go watch her interview with Lance Armstrong. I talk about, uh, Lance Armstrong a lot in the book. I pick on him a lot. Her interview with Lance Armstrong, she is high competence. She has just enough warmth to make him feel comfortable, but she asks hard questions. Versus some of her other interviews, she's dialing up warmth. She wants to make the other person feel comfortable. So, that's an example of someone who's very, uh, a nice balance and kind of uses her warmth and competence as a dial. Let's look at, for example, Steve Jobs. So Steve Jobs is often-
- MRMel Robbins
Zero warmth.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I'm, am I?
- MRMel Robbins
No, zero warmth.
- 16:22 – 19:12
Are you highly competent? Look for these three signs.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
ever told you that you're intimidating or hard to talk to. You know that you're in a relationship or have a partner who's high in competence if they constantly Google fact check you. (laughs) So highly competent folks, their mission is to get it right. They are very, uh, dominated by the idea of get it right, get the facts. And so they'll be in a conversation with you and be like, "Let me Google fact check that. Let me just see if that's, (laughs) that's right."
- MRMel Robbins
Do they share their emotions if they're high competent?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Y- usually less. They're much less comfortable sharing their emotions, 'cause vulnerability, sharing emotions, is an aspect of warmth.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So that is one way that competent people can hack warmth is sharing more of their emotions. But usually they don't like that as much, 'cause emotions aren't correct. Right? It's hard to be right with emotion. So they'll often... The reason why a highly incompetent partner, I have one of those, is I w- I'm gonna use the word afraid of emotions or uncomfortable with emotions, is because it can't be fact checked, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Hm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
If someone says as a partner, um, "I feel upset with you," how do you verify that? How do you fix it? Where's the solution? A highly competent partner, they love solving things, right? (laughs) You come to them and you're like, "I'm just having a bad day." And they're like, "Let me fix that for you." And you're like, "I don't want you to fix it. I just want you to listen." And they're like, (laughs) or, "No, I don't know how to do that," 'cause they're fixers.
- MRMel Robbins
Got it.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So highly competent people, you have that super strength of, of getting it right, being fixers. Warm folks, my warm folks. So my highly warm folks, you are filled with empathy. You're cheerleaders, you're supporters. Your mission, so if competent people wanna get it right, highly warm people wanna be liked.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
They want everyone to feel good. They want everyone to feel comfortable. Typically, highly warm folks, their super strength is empathy, nurturing, making people feel loved and warm. But they often give too much of themselves in sacrifice of being liked.
- MRMel Robbins
Got it. So, like, people-pleasing doormats is what you're talking about.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
That's the far end.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
People-pleasing is what they struggle with, and so I think that highly warm folks in the workplace, this is the other really important thing to understand, is if you are highly warm, you are fighting a battle in yourself, which is your desire to be liked gets in the way of your need to be respected.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm. Okay, stop. I need everybody to hear that. If you default and you are too warm, especially at work, your need to be liked is getting in the way of your need to be respected.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And when you are too focused on getting it right, and too focused on being smart, and too focused
- 19:12 – 21:11
What highly competent people are missing.
- MRMel Robbins
on dominating the conversation or the knowledge bank, your need to be right is dominate, i- e- e- y- y- how did you say, your need to be right-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Your need to be right is getting in the way of your need to be liked.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes, yes, your need to be right is getting in the way of your need to be liked. That even rhymes. That's amazing. I want to go-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I didn't even do that on purpose.
- MRMel Robbins
I want to go back to something in the very beginning that we were talking about.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
So, when I asked you, "What is charisma?"
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And you said, "It has nothing to do with personality, it has nothing to do with introversion or extroversion, it is not about being confident," that charisma is something that you display to other people, correct?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
And charisma matters because if you have charisma people trust you, they like you, they count on you, which I would think means it makes you in- more influential, it makes you more successful, it makes you have greater influence. Is that what the benefits of charisma are?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Influence, impact, and income. So the reason why-
- MRMel Robbins
Whoa.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Hold on, hold on. So charisma-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... impacts the three Is.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
The three Is, all three of them. Why? If you are warm and competent, you are less likely to be underestimated, you're less likely to be dismissed and doubted. Why? We are attracted to highly charismatic people because charisma is contagious. And they have actually proven this in a lab. The more charismatic you are, the more you clearly and purposefully, I keep using the word purposeful on purpose, the more clearly you signal warmth and competence, the more contagious you are. We like to be around warm, competent people because they make us more warm and competent. And so non-verbal signals, vocal signals,
- 21:11 – 28:34
What highly warm people are missing.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
verbal signals, we are constantly aware of because we want to catch them. So the reason why we're drawn to people who are the in- that influence piece, that influence or impact piece is because we are influenced by people who we wanna be contagious with.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
We also wanna be more warm and competent. So if we're around someone who's warm and competent, it makes us feel like our best selves. If you think about the h- most, the most charismatic person you know, so just think about them for a second, they make you feel better, they make you feel like your best self. That's the difference, I think, between, for example, a highly charismatic person and a narcissist, right? Like, this is not just about confidence, it's about someone who actually is positively infectious. And they've proven this with both negative and positive cues. So for example, um, Dr. Matthew Lieberman at UCLA, he flashed people a fear micro-expression. So a fear micro-expression is when we raise our eyebrows up our forehead and we white, widen our eyes so our whites show, and we take in a deep breath, so we go (gasps) .
- MRMel Robbins
(gasps) Yes.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So that expression, if he flashes that expression to someone in a fMRI, their amygdala, where they process fear, begins to activate. We catch the fear. Literally just seeing someone with a fear face makes us feel afraid. The most important part of this experiment though is the moment that someone labeled the fear, so in their head or out loud said, "Fear," it deactivated their amygdala.
- MRMel Robbins
Hm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
In other words, being aware of the cues that are being sent to us, both negative and positive, makes us aware of who is infecting us. So that influence, that impact is that highly charismatic people are so clear with their signals, they're, it's like they're gifting, another Oprah reference, they're gifting warmth for you, competence for you, charisma for you. And not charismatic people, people who are anxious, afraid, awkward, they are signaling negative cues. That's why we don't wanna be around them. We don't wanna catch that fear, right? Like, we don't want that fear, and so we're like, "Whoa, I don't like those signals," and so we avoid them as much as we possibly can.
- MRMel Robbins
You know what I love about your research? What I love is that, first of all, you're about to teach us all how to become more charismatic.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Oh, yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
You're also about to give us hacks related to body language and getting intentional about what we're displaying and signaling.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
But what I also love about your research is that I need everybody listening to understand something. Right now, you are unintentionally sending signals and cues to people.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
That's it.
- MRMel Robbins
You are walking around, and whether it's a negative mood, or it's anxiety, or it's insecurity, or it's awkwardness, or you're so focused on being right that you don't realize that you're sending signals and cues that make people not like you and not trust you, or you're so focused on being liked and that you're sending these signals of being a warm pushover, which is why you're never respected and why you're passed over at work. And so what I love about this research is that you're helping us focus on two factors that you can display-... that will increase influence, impact, and income.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And it doesn't matter whether you're shy or whether you're bossy, these strategies are gonna work for all of us.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
One thing I would love for you to talk about before we talk about the cues is this. So in that study that you cited from Princeton-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... they also found that charisma accounts for 82% of how people evaluate you. So can you unpack that? Because I think it's really important for us to understand. This is not only a good idea because you're gonna make more money, be more influential, and make a bigger impact. Based on the science, this is how people view you. And so can you-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
82%.
- MRMel Robbins
... unpack this for us?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So I was also shocked by that number. By the way, it's very rare to see a number that big in science, right? Especially because if I were to ask someone, "How do you want to be perceived?" You're gonna get a list of 100 adjectives, funny, extroverted, bubbly, attractive, whatever. Actually, when someone is interacting with us, and by the way, this is not just in person, this is on your LinkedIn profile, in Zoom, on the phone, in chats, in Slack, in DMs, in your email inbox. People are using warmth and competence signals to make up 82% of their judgment of you.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay, stop. Everybody, did you just hear that? People are using warmth and competence, which are the two things that make up your charisma. 82% of how people judge you, evaluate you, size you up, decide to hire or date you, has to do with whether or not you're warm or competent. That's bananas.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
It's bananas. And it's not just your first impression. It's actually every single impression. So yes, your first impression is important, but even if you don't feel you've had a good first impression, that's okay. We are re-evaluating this on every Zoom call. If someone sees your name pop up in their inbox, they're also wondering, is this a, is this a warm and competent email? In other words, can I trust this email? Can I rely on this email? The more warm and competent your email is, the faster response rates you're gonna get. We as humans have a really hard time responding to, connecting with, building rapport with, being impacted by people who under signal or people who signal in an imbalanced way. So what we're talking about here, that 82% is making it easier for people to interact with you. I believe that your warmth and competence tells the world how they should treat you.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow. And here's what I believe, Vanessa.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So you want to be treated-
- MRMel Robbins
You want to hear what I believe, Vanessa?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
I believe we all have a huge blind spot when it comes to what we're signaling other people, that you may think you know how you come across and what you're displaying, but I have a feeling that we are about to learn from Vanessa-
- 28:34 – 33:08
A simple test that will help you figure out how charismatic you are
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
- MRMel Robbins
Scienceofpeople.com/charisma.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
/charisma.
- MRMel Robbins
Wait, is that the New York Times Science of People?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
No, just my Science of People.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, that's your site. Okay. Scienceofpeople.com/charisma. We will put that in the show notes. So you can take this test...
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
As many times as you want. And so first I want you to take it as you, and we're gonna take it as you, and I want you to take it not on your ideal self, your real self.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay? Okay. So on a, on a normal day, I want you to screenshot your results. Then what I want you to do is I want you to do a 360 review. I want you to send the quiz to a partner, a friend, a colleague, and ask them to take it as you. This is the key because it's going to show you how other people see you and have them screenshot the results, and then go to dinner and get a lot of wine because it'll be a great conversation.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs) . So do you find that most people have no idea how they're showing up with other people?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
You were right. Most of us have a blind spot. We think, we hope, we think of ourselves as our ideal selves. And there are days, of course, we are a little closer to that sweet spot of warmth and competence. But what's really key, what we find is that not only are people giving them different results, but they even might even have different results for home and work. So they're showing up as two selves. And that's a very important thing to know about yourself. If you're going to work and you're dreading it, you're burnt out, you're drained, it could be that you are not honoring who you truly are because you're either under-signaling competence or under-signaling warmth, or trying to fake it till we make it. I have a little problem with that phrase. I don't love that phrase-
- MRMel Robbins
I hate it.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... because I think that the problem is if you're gonna fake warmth, it's exhausting, right? And so this is also a way to sort of get a very quick snapshot in how are people perceiving you and is it what you think you're showing?
- MRMel Robbins
Um, you also have a suggestion that we record our Zoom calls in order to read how charismatic we are. That sounds horrible.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
It's horrible. Uh, I'm not gonna lie. It is horrible. And not only do I want you to record a Zoom call, I want you to record a Zoom call that you worked hard on.... presentation, an important client meeting, a call. And then I want you to code it. So when we talk about-
- MRMel Robbins
What does code it mean?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay. So when we talk about que- cues, so cues are the social signals humans send to each other. Okay? There are four different modes of cues. Verbal, the one we talk about the most, so our words. This is what we, most of us think about all the time. We want to prepare the perfect answer, share the perfect presentation, we practice our stories. So verbal is only one mode of cues. Second is non-verbal, our body language, our gestures, our facial expressions. The third, the most important one that's overlooked, is voice tone, our vocal power, our volume, our pace, our cadence, our tone. And the last smallest one is ornaments, the jewelry we wear, what's behind us in our background, uh, the h- the color of our nails, how we wear our hair, our glasses. Those are the ornaments. What I want you to do is I want you to code yourself for every cue that you're showing. Everything from how many gestures you're using, to what your facial expressions are doing, to your movement, to your fidgeting, to your vocal power, to the kinds of words you're using. That's also gonna give you a snapshot because what we have found in our research is that there are certain very clear signals of warmth, cues of warmth, and cues of competence, and the last one are danger zone cues, cues that are negative. My goal, this is a way that you can see, is how are you signaling warmth and competence? What are you doing with your body and your va- your voice and your face that's making people treat you the way that they're treating you?
- MRMel Robbins
Okay. So, (laughs) I, I feel like everybody needs to grab a pen-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... and a piece of paper, and this is definitely one of those podcast episodes that I know every single parent is going to be forwarding to their kids who have interviews.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
Because we are about to get the cheat sheet, everybody, for how to nail charisma, whether you're in a virtual meeting, whether you're in an interview, whether you're sending an email. And so let's go through the cues.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
All right.
- MRMel Robbins
What is the easiest way to walk through these?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
All right. Let's go. Let's go.
- MRMel Robbins
Do you wanna go by warmth? Do you wanna go by, like, do you wanna go, like, how do you wanna do this? 'Cause there's a lot to cover.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah, so let's do it by time. So what I wanna do is actually I wanna do the first 10 seconds of your, th- your video, the first minute of
- 33:08 – 37:43
The ONE thing you need to do during the first 10 seconds of your zoom call
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
your video. That actually helps us break it down 'cause actually the first 10 seconds are really important, the first 10 seconds of you being on camera.
- MRMel Robbins
Really?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So, yeah, because, um, it sets you up for the rest of the time. So if you can nail your first 10 seconds, it makes the next hour easier. And then-
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
That's what we mean.
- MRMel Robbins
So, so what do we have to do?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay.
- MRMel Robbins
What are we doing? So, so, so you're about to tell us-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... in the first 10 seconds-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... of a Zoom meeting-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... you must do this in order to be influential. What do you do?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay. First 10 seconds, and th- you, I want you to code this if you did this on your last video 'cause here's what you should do and here's what you should code. Number one, in the first second, you should try to show your hands. I know this sounds really weird, but they use-
- MRMel Robbins
What?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... eye tracking studies and they found that one of the first places the brain looks when they're trying to gauge someone's warmth is hands. Why? This is actually a survival mechanism. Back in our caveman days, if we were approached by a stranger caveman, we wanted to see if they were carrying a rock or a spear. Right? So this still remains. Something interesting happens. I'll do a little experiment for you. So if you're watching the video, um, I'm gonna hide my hands. If you're listening, I'm hiding my hands right now.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
The moment you can't see someone's hands, so if I were to give this entire interview with my hands behind my back, something interesting would happen in your brain and Mel's brain, which is that your amygdala would begin to activate. And that's because when you can't see someone's hands, you wonder, "What is, what is she holding?
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
What, what's her intention?" And so the longer I keep my hands behind my back, the more distracted you should become with the fact-
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... that my hands are behind my back. Y- you want them to come back out, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Get it back. Right?
- MRMel Robbins
Okay. There they are.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And then, ooh.
- MRMel Robbins
Hello.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
That is so much better. So, this is a survival mechanism. The moment you hop on video, walk on stage, walk into a board room, walk on a date-
- MRMel Robbins
Like, put your hands up. Like, "Hey, everybody."
- 37:43 – 51:58
The reason why you keep getting passed over for that promotion
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
we found in our lab that people would use the question inflection in their first 10 seconds, which made people doubt them. So I'm gonna, I wanna share this study because this study gave me the chills when I first heard it, and I think it's so incredibly important for people who are listening who wanna be taken seriously. So what they did in the study, I promise I won't get too into the science, very simply they brought doctors into their lab, and they wanted to know if people would change their perceptions of charisma based on their voice tone. So they asked the doctors to record 10-second voice tone clips. So these clips, they had to say their name, where they worked, and their specialty. So it sounded like this. I'll use my lipstick as an example. "Hi, my name is Dr. Edwards. I specialize in oncology, and I work at Children's Presbyterian Hospital." They took these clips, and they warbled the words. So you could hear the volume, the pace, the cadence, but not the actual words being said. So that sounded like this. (warbled sounds) Okay? They asked participants to then rate these doctors on warmth and competence.
- MRMel Robbins
Based on the warbled thing that you just did?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes. So imagine that I just did that, and, uh, then I asked you, "Do you like this person? Is this person smart?" So participants rated these gobbledygook clips on, do they like this person, is this person smart? They found the doctors who had the lowest warmth and competence ratings had the highest rate of malpractice lawsuits.
- MRMel Robbins
What?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
The doctors with the lowest warmth and competence ratings, simply based on their voice tone, had the highest rate of malpractice lawsuits. This implies that we don't just dislike people based on their skills. We dislike people based on our perception of their skills, and that happens within the first few seconds of hearing them.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
The biggest pattern, it, it's, it was such a, it sent a shockwave through the community because these were, these are doctors who are very well-trained. What they found was patterns. There were certain doctors who, across the board, were rated as highly charismatic from gobbledygook. And there were certain doctors that over and over again, they were rated as not very smart, not very likable. Here was the biggest pattern, uptalk. The doctors who had a introduction like this, "Hi, my name is Dr. Edwards. I specialize in oncology, and I work at Children's Presbyterian Hospital."
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right? What it did is it changes the way that we listen. They found that when we hear the question inflection accidentally used on a statement, our prefrontal cortex shifts from listening to scrutinizing.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
We think, "Why did they just question themselves? I guess I should question them." We hear this all the time in sales calls where someone is killing it in a pitch, this is what, this is the income, the, the last I. Or in a salary negotiation, "I'd love to work for your company. I, I think s- I'd be a great fit for you. I love your mission, and I'm really looking for a salary range of over $100,000."
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs) Oh. Everybody, did you hear that question?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
"I'm really looking for a salary range of, um, $100,000."
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
When you ask your price, you are begging people to negotiate with you. You're telling people, "I don't really believe this number, and you shouldn't believe it either." So what happens in the first 10 seconds is we're nervous, right? We're really nervous. We've been holding our breath. We're waiting for a Zoom call, and so we accidentally give away all of our vocal power in the first 10 seconds. We say, "Hey, everyone. Uh, my name's Vanessa. We'll get started in a few."
- MRMel Robbins
Whoa. Okay, I just, this is why it's important to tape a Zoom call you're on, everybody.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Because now you have three research-backed, incredibly subtle but profound behavior changes that you need to make immediately.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Immediately.
- MRMel Robbins
Hands up. You gotta have the right distance, which is a foot to a foot and a half, nose to camera. No uptalk, everybody, and I, I would imagine that most people don't realize that they do it.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
No idea. That's why coding is so important. That's why seeing yourself, that's why we don't realize when we walk into a salary negotiation or we walk into a pitch meeting with a client or we go on a date, and we think it went well, right? How often have people been sideswiped, and they think, "Yeah, I think that went great, but I didn't get a call back," or, "I didn't get a second date." It's because you are accidentally telling the world how to treat you. And if you under-signal warmth, people don't like you. If you under-signal competence, people don't take you seriously.
- MRMel Robbins
And the uptalking, everyone-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Ugh.
- MRMel Robbins
... is when you're under-signaling competence.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Competence.
- MRMel Robbins
You might be the most competent and, and qualified person, but if you walk into that interview and you don't, you know, not sure, like, "It, my last job was great. I think I'd do great here. I'd, you know, 100,000? That would be..."That'd be great. Like, it-it-it, uh, you just shot yourself in the foot.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And you don't even realize it 'cause you don't hear it. I bet people do this with dating all the time.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
All the time. And the problem is, it's a permi- it's a permission-seeking behavior. So, if we really get down to the root cause of it, which is, which is one thing that fascinates me is, this is appeasement body language. Right? So, this is, "Do you like me? Do you agree with me?" So oftentimes, highly warm people who really, really desperately want to be liked use more uptalk because they're asking, "Do you agree? Do you like me?"
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- 51:58 – 54:38
Why you should never fake a smile
- MRMel Robbins
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... that, let's start with introverts. What are mistakes that introverts make-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... when it comes to body language?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay, so, uh, one of the biggest mistakes that we have identified, there's- there's a lot of them, is with our facial expressions. So, I think with our facial expressions, we forget how rich our face is in demonstrating emotions or cuing emotions. So, a big mistake that I see is people will fake smile. I love smiling, but there is nothing worse than fake smiling. I do not believe in toxic positivity. So, people have been told, "Smile, smile more," which I think is, like, the worst advice, right? I'm like, "Smile purposefully, don't smile more." So, a really simple mistake is someone will say, "Yeah, I'm so happy to be here."
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
(laughs) Incongruent. Incongruent. So, what will happen is, an introvert really wants to show up as their best self. They come with the best intention, or someone will hop on a video call and they're trying to be positive, and so they'll have a lot of incongruent messages by trying to show warmth with a fake smile. The problem is, Dr. Barbara Wild and her associates, they actually looked at fake smiling, and what they did is they showed people pictures of smiling people, fake smiling people, and neutral people. By the way, just the science of this, a fake smile or, uh, a real smile reaches all the way up into these upper cheek muscles, so if you were to smile all the way up into your upper cheek muscles, they activate your crow's feet. Right? That's a real smile.
- MRMel Robbins
Got it. Yes.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Only one in 10 people can consciously activate those muscles. So, they really do happen with authentic happiness.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Fake smiles are only on the bottom half of the face, so if I was in a face mask, you could not see my fake smile.
- MRMel Robbins
Right, but you could see the smile lines in somebody's eyes.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
If it's real. If it's real.
- MRMel Robbins
So, a real smile, you actually make with your eyes.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Exactly. Exactly.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Upper cheek muscles slash eyes, exactly. So, what happens is, wha- what happened in this research experiment is she showed people pictures of real smiling people, and people caught the happiness. It actually affected their positive mood. They felt happier. When people saw the fake smiles, they caught nothing. In other words, cuing for real happiness actually makes you more contagious. Fake happiness makes you less memorable. Nothing happens. So, the biggest mistake that will happen with introverts is they want to come across as warm, and their only tool in their toolkit is smiling. Problem is, there are, the good thing is there are many other warmth cues that you can use.
- MRMel Robbins
So, what are the other warmth cues that you can use?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay. So I would, if you're gonna smile, smile for real.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And please, please go look at your LinkedIn profile picture. Please, please go look at your dating profile pictures.
- 54:38 – 1:09:46
Three ways you can start building your charisma today.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I either want you neutral, sexy, or smiling all the way. No fake smiles, okay? So, make sure (laughs) that smile is all the way up into your eyes, 'cause if you have a fake smile in your LinkedIn profile picture, you are literally signaling fake happiness inauthenticity.So, if you don't want to actually smile, that is totally okay, that's not your only warmth cue. Here are your other warmth options. One, a head nod. So a slow triple nod, one, two, three-
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... is an immediate warmth signal.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow. One, two, three. Okay, we-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right?
- MRMel Robbins
... can do that, people. Yes.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Easy. So, and by the way, the funny thing about this, the research found, this just tickles me, that when someone does a slow triple nod, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, the other person speaks 67% longer.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
It's like a non-verbal dot-dot-dot. You're literally saying to someone, "Tell me more. I want to listen. I want to hear you." So, a slow triple nod, "Oh, no, it's so good to see you."
- MRMel Robbins
I think they teach that to therapists, don't they?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
I think they, they teach the therapists triple nod technique.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right, so a slow triple nod, very easy. You don't have to smile, it just, it's a, it's a warmth cue. The other thing that we found, we did this in LinkedIn profile pictures, if you add a simple head tilt, doop, you are seen as warmer. (laughs) So if I tilt my head to the side, this is a universal response, if I want to hear something better, so if I say, "Mel, do you hear that?" We automatically tilt our head and expose our ear. That's a way that we want to hear better. And so when you are on a video call, on a date, in your LinkedIn profile picture, if you want to be seen as warm, you can tilt your head to the side as if to say, "I am deeply listening. I am really trying to hear you." And it's much more natural than smiling maniacally.
- MRMel Robbins
This is fascinating.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Easy.
- MRMel Robbins
So we've got the triple nod, everybody, we've got smile with your eyes, we've got tilt your head slightly. What are other warm cues?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay, so other warm cues, vocal. So let's talk about vocal. So those were three non-verbal cues. Vocal, remember, is the one that we often forget. You have a lot of power in your voice.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So another warmth vocal cue is what I call vocalizations. Ooh, do we love a vocalization. So a vocalization is surround sound listening, it's, it's showing that you're listening. So this is gonna immediately make me sound warmer. Mm. Huh?
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, I just did that. Ooh, I'm very warm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Huh? Huh? Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So actually, you have very good balance, Mel, of warmth and competence. I was gonna say you when you asked for an example, but I was like, "That's way too brown-nosy," so I didn't.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
But you have, (laughs) you have a very good warmth and competence because you will vocalize for me. So as a speaker, when you nod at me, I can see you nodding right now, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, yeah. I'm just doing it naturally.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
When you... Yeah, and that encourages me as a speaker. I'm doing good. That makes my crunchiness smoother. So-
- MRMel Robbins
Oh.
- 1:09:46 – 1:31:35
Why a second impression is as important as the first
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
uh, touching the hands, uh, touching the face, touching the stomach. That actually comes out of Cornell University. They actually found that when we're nervous, we touch our, um, stomach, or we clench our stomach, or we touch our face. Um, third is, uh, purposeless gestures, so wringing the hands, cracking the knuckles, touching the back of the neck. Purp- gestures that have no purpose.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Um, what's another one? I, I want, I wanna t- so I'm trying to do the research.
- MRMel Robbins
Playing with the necklace?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Playing with your necklace, fidgeting, uh, those are also, also purposeless gestures. Uh, adding unnecessary pauses or awkward pauses. So someone's in the middle of a talk and they're, they're really trying to ex- explain it, but they're pa- they're pausing as mid-
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... mid-word or mid, mid-sentence, like that. Um, that's also a thing.
- MRMel Robbins
If you call out somebody on a Zoom meeting-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So-
- MRMel Robbins
... for their nervous tell-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... do they get more nervous?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
It depends on how you do it, right? Intention is everything here. So I don't like being like that, "Gotcha." Yeah. That, that's not a good way to interact with cues. However, if I notice, like I'm on a team call, and I say, "Hey everyone, we're having a big New Year's launch," and I notice one of my team members shows a cluster of three nervous tells. One, one cue by itself does not usually mean anything, right? Like, for example, we're gonna talk about lying in the last, the last question. One of the top lying red flags is touching the nose. So liars have, um, we have a very specific kind of tissue in our nose. And research has found that when we lie and we're in guilt, it, uh, swells and it causes our nose to itch. So Bill Clinton, during his Monica Lewinsky testimony, when he lied, he touched his nose 26 times.
- MRMel Robbins
(gasps)
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
In his truthful testimony, he touched his nose twice. So this is a, a response that we have. So, uh, but-
- MRMel Robbins
Are you lying right now? 'Cause you just touched your nose.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
No, I'm showing you. I'm showing you, because-
- MRMel Robbins
(laughing) Oh, oh, I'm sorry. (laughs)
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... I, I... But also, what if you have allergies? What if you have a cold?
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So one cue by itself is never good. Three cues, so if I see someone nose touch, and let's, another, um, uh, like, interesting lying tell is a shame touch, so when we touch the side of our forehead. We often do this when we're very embarrassed. It's an eye-blocking behavior. And I see a lip purse, so we press our-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... lips into a hard line, that's three very, very big red flags in a row. That's when I either will pause the Zoom call and I'll be like, "Hey everyone, I just wanna check in. Rob, does this sound doable to you, this launch timeline? Are we good on this? Anything that I should know or we should, uh, we're not thinking about?" That's me, not me saying, "Rob, I saw you touch your nose." Right?
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Which is, like, terrible. But it's me checking in with him. Or I might, afterwards, hang up the Zoom call, text him, or call him, or email him and say, "Hey, are you good with the launch? I just wanna make sure." So I believe in that.
- MRMel Robbins
Got it. Got it. Okay. That's super cool.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay. So-
- MRMel Robbins
So how do I tell what my-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Tell me.
- MRMel Robbins
... lying tell is?
Episode duration: 1:42:04
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