Focus on Yourself: 3 Signs You’re Giving Too Much & What to Do About It Right Now

1. 0:00 – 4:45

   Introduction

   1. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin0:00

      Self-care, (laughs) the term, has gone wildly off the rails.

   2. MRMel Robbins0:04

      When I go online, you are bombarded with people's skin care routines, and the bubble baths, and the things that they're doing at night to take care of themselves.

   3. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin0:12

      Wellness has given us methods and tools, but it has not given us principles or perspective. A juice cleanse is not going to fix all of those problems.

   4. MRMel Robbins0:22

      But when you think about it from the lens of a psychiatrist, what does self-care mean to you?

   5. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin0:26

      When we're talking about real self-care, there's four principles: boundaries, compassion, values, and...

   6. MRMel Robbins0:37

      Hey, it's your friend Mel. I'm so excited that you are here today. It is always an honor to spend time with you and to be together. If you're brand new, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. I wanna just take a quick moment before we jump into this amazing topic about boundaries and acknowledge you for taking time to listen to something that can truly help you create a better life. And I'm gonna tell you something, one thing that will help you have a better life is learning how to have better boundaries. Look, I'm sure you've heard the word a thousand times, and I've even talked about boundaries before. I like to remind you that you can be a good person and have a kind heart and still say, "Absolutely not." Today, you and I are gonna come at boundaries from a completely new angle, because Dr. Puja Lakshman is here in our Boston podcast studios, and she says there are three surprising signs that she sees in her patients day in and day out that indicate no boundaries. And she's gonna explain exactly what these three signs are, why you need boundaries, how your life is gonna change, and more importantly, how you can get started in creating them today. In fact, you and I are gonna leave this conversation with a very simple exercise. I love this thing, 'cause you're gonna do it as soon as you're done listening, and it's gonna reveal all the moments in the coming week where you do not have a boundary in place, but you need one. Dr. Puja Lakshman is a board-certified psychiatrist and the author of the best-selling book Real Self Care. She's a professor of psychiatry at George Washington University School of Medicine. And one more thing, before we stepped into the studio, she said, "Mel, after you introduce me, I like to be called Puja. Not Dr. Puja, not Dr. Lakshman, Puja." So Puja, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

   7. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin2:28

      It is such an honor to be here, Mel.

   8. MRMel Robbins2:30

      I am so thrilled that you're here, and I am very excited to talk to you about your work. And where I wanna begin is, could you tell the person that's listening what they can expect to change in their life or experience their life differently if they really take to heart everything that you're about to share?

   9. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin2:53

      Yeah. So for folks that are listening, I want you to know that it's possible to make a change, um, and that that feeling of selfishness or guilt that you get each time you set a boundary, that, that doesn't need to control you. That that feeling actually is not the truth of who you are, and, and you're gonna get some skills and tools to take away to really understand how to feel like you have agency in your life.

   10. MRMel Robbins3:29

       What does the word agency mean?

   11. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin3:31

       So, um, I think of agency as basically the ability to feel like you can solve problems in your life, even when there are external constraints, even when your environment is stacked against you, that you can take action, and that that action will cause change. That's what agency is. And, and I think that's power.

   12. MRMel Robbins3:54

       I have never heard anybody describe it that way.

   13. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin3:57

       (laughs)

   14. MRMel Robbins3:59

       I, I'm, I'm sitting here with my mouth open for just a second, because I hear the word agency a lot, and I've never connected the dots between that word and power. But it is true, because there are so many times in your life where you do feel like you're overwhelmed by everything and you have no power. And I know we're gonna dig deep into two words that you talked about, you feel selfish or guilty.

   15. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin4:22

       Yep.

   16. MRMel Robbins4:23

       And I love that. I love that that's what you're going to experience, is access to this power. Boom!

   17. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin4:30

       (laughs)

   18. MRMel Robbins4:30

       Already.

   19. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin4:32

       Yes. (laughs)

   20. MRMel Robbins4:32

       Already, Dr. Lakshman-

   21. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin4:34

       (laughs)

   22. MRMel Robbins4:34

       ... is dropping, dropping the knowledge. So I saw this, um, article that you wrote.

   23. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin4:40

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MRMel Robbins4:40

       Where you said that... I wa- I wanna get the, the quote correct. You

2. 4:45 – 6:45

   The truth about self-care: it’s not just a routine, it’s a total mindset shift

   1. MRMel Robbins4:45

      said that real self-care is not about a bubble bath. Can you unpack that for us and talk about how the act of self-care has now become a new form of us shaming ourselves?

   2. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin4:58

      So this came to me from my patients, really. You know, the patient that... Every patient, really, that comes in and says, "Dr. Lakshman, I'm stressed out, I'm burnt out, I'm not eating well, I'm not sleeping well, and I feel like it's my fault, because I have the meditation app, I have the yoga membership. I know I'm supposed to be doing these things, but I can't do it." And I say to my patients, like, "Look, this isn't your fault. This isn't about willpower. This isn't about being lazy. It's actually much bigger than that." You know, we live in a country that still doesn't have federally mandated paid parental leave. Half of American workers can't take a paid sick day. Half of American people are living in what's called childcare deserts. Um, the most recent statistic on childcare costs found that, for Americans with two kids, they are paying 10% of their income for childcare. So I mention all of these numbers not to be, like, doom and gloom, but more to say, wellness has given us methods and tools, but it has not given us principles or perspective, so a juice cleanse is not going to fix all of those problems.

   3. MRMel Robbins6:11

      I love that. So you used two words, principles and perspectives. What is the deeper perspective about what self-care is versus what the wellness industry is marketing to us? 'Cause it almost feels like, you know, when you mentioned juice cleanse, and I know when I go online, you're bombarded with people's skincare routines, and the bubble baths, and the things that they're doing at night to take care of themselves, and it's almost as if the wellness industry or the skincare industry has hijacked the word

3. 6:45 – 15:48

   According to a psychiatrist, this is what self-care is and the piece you are missing

   1. MRMel Robbins6:45

      self-care, but when you think about it from the lens of a psychiatrist, what does self-care mean to you?

   2. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin6:51

      So it's actually really interesting. When I was working on the book, I did a little research on the- the roots of the word self-care-

   3. MRMel Robbins6:59

      Mm-hmm.

   4. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin6:59

      ... and it's funny because it- it- there's two parallel lineages that came out in like the 1950s, 1960s. One is the social justice movement, Audre Lorde, self-care as self-preservation, but the other actually is psychiatry. So in the '50s and '60s, psychiatrists were using the word self-care to, um, describe the choices that patients who are on locked psychiatric units could make. So, like, "What do I wanna wear today? What am I gonna eat for lunch? What exercise am I gonna do?" So it's again, coming back to agency, even in the context of having so many of your choices made for you, you can still find small ways. So obviously, now in 2024, like self-care, (laughs) the term has gone wildly off the rails, um, but let me give you kind of an example-

   5. MRMel Robbins7:52

      Great.

   6. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin7:52

      ... for folks listening to kind of get a picture, 'cause I know this sounds a little bit heady. So imagine that you are going to a yoga class, and, um, you go to this yoga class and you spend most of your- the time on the mat kind of feeling guilty because, oh, you know, maybe you're a mom, you should have maybe spent this hour helping your kid with his homework, you know, you need to make cupcakes for school. So you- so you're there in the yoga class, but your mind is feeling all this guilt and this mental load. On top of that, you're looking at the person next to you who can hold a headstand and, like, you can't even do crow pose, and so you're comparing yourself, you're beating yourself up. You- you also don't really know why you're even at yoga. Like, you're there because, like, your mom told you to go to yoga, but you haven't really internalized, like, what does yoga do for you? And- and so essentially, you've given away your power. So that's one person, but then imagine a completely different scenario where you have a hard conversation with your partner and you say, "Hey look, you know, I think both of us do a lot better when we each have a little bit of alone time over the weekend. So let's, um, I'm gonna go to yoga on Saturday, and you can go for your run on Sunday, um, because we both know we're better parents, we're better partners when we have that time." You've set boundaries. You are on the mat and you're not beating yourself up. You are actually, you know, connected to yourself in a nice way. And then you've actually named for yourself, what is it about yoga? Like, why does yoga help me? Maybe for you, it's, um, the physicality. You know, you feel strong, you're in your body. Maybe for somebody else, it's actually community. You like being in that room with other people who have the same passion as you. So it's different, you have to name your own value, and through that, you have actually reclaimed your agency from the society which is telling us, "No, no, no, don't rest, don't do anything for yourself, instead just keep producing, just do more, be more." So the- the whole kind of thesis here is that real self-care is actually, it's not about the thing. It's about all of the work you do inside before you do the thing. So your yoga class is only as powerful as the boundaries that you've set beforehand.

   7. MRMel Robbins10:15

      There is so much to unpack.

   8. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin10:17

      (laughs)

   9. MRMel Robbins10:18

      I wanna take a gigantic highlighter-

   10. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin10:21

       (laughs)

   11. MRMel Robbins10:21

       ... and I wanna make sure as you're listening that you heard what Dr. Pooja just said. She said it's not about the thing, it's about the reason why you are doing the thing in the first place. And if I get back to two of the words that you said earlier, principles and perspective, that's how you access it. And I'm also, in that example, which I found crazy relatable.

   12. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin10:51

       (laughs)

   13. MRMel Robbins10:52

       I was thinking, "How are you in my head while I'm doing yoga?" Because you're right, I race there, I get on that mat, I maybe settle in for five seconds after looking around and checking out, like, "Okay, like how am I gonna size up here?" Then it starts. If there's no music, I'm complaining about that in my mind.

   14. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin11:12

       (laughs)

   15. MRMel Robbins11:12

       And then I'm almost immediately thinking about what I'm gonna do after the class. And the other thing that I think about in that example is I have probably poured more time and energy into the mat, and the towel, and the bottle of water, and the outfit that I'm wearing than I am about the reason why I do it. And when you go deeper and you tap into the deeper principle of what this is for and why you do it, that's how you access the power of it. And then you also gave that example with your partner where you say, "The reason I do this is not because I'm supposed to, because I see all these other people doing it, and because I'm this or that or the other thing, but because I know the deeper principle. I'm a better person, I'm better for you when I do this." Wow.

   16. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin12:09

       Yeah. I'm gonna give you something else, too, um, that encompasses this. So real self-care is not a thing to do, it's a way to be.It's a verb, it's not a noun. It's something that you thread through all the decisions that you make in life, whether it's how you show up to yoga or what job you choose or, you know, your- who you decide to partner with. Like, it- it really is something that is in the fabric if you're doing it right.

   17. MRMel Robbins12:40

       How do you figure out-

   18. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin12:42

       (laughs)

   19. MRMel Robbins12:43

       ... how to be? You know, and- and- and I'm sitting here also thinking to myself, "Okay, um, I spend a lot of time talking to people, trying to distill their research and advice down to the takeaway and the thing to do. Okay, everybody-"

   20. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin12:58

       Mm-hmm.

   21. MRMel Robbins12:58

       "... we're gonna go for a walk, we're gonna do this thing, we're gonna ba-ba-ba-ba, ba-ba-ba-ba-ba." And I know you're not saying don't do the thing. You're saying go deeper first and actually understand the way you want to be in life. Is that what you're saying?

   22. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin13:14

       Yes, exactly. I'm not saying that the things are bad. You know, yoga actually can be really helpful. Um, exercise is helpful. There's tons of studies. Sleep is important, right? All these things. But it's- it's about how you show up to those things. Um, if you're not taking the time to reflect and understand how, um, the yoga or the meditation is important in your life and- and- and really getting a sense for what it does for you, then you're just- you're- you're- you're just checking it off the list. You're not actually taking in the medicine or the nourishment of those activities. Um, and- and I wanna say, like, uh, for folks that are listening, I- I don't want you to feel ashamed because we all do this. Like, we live in a society where you open Instagram or, you know, TikTok and it's just bright. Like, it's all the- the makeup and the- the yoga and all the things. And it's- it's not... We all do this, we're all in this together and it's not about shaming yourself. You can't, like, beat yourself into real self-care (laughs) .

   23. MRMel Robbins14:22

       (laughs)

   24. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin14:22

       Um, and again, it's just that you have to understand that the internal work, um, has to go along with it beforehand. Otherwise, it's just gonna be empty calories. And, I mean, if you're like me, yeah, you'll get- you'll be really great, you'll do it every day for, like, two weeks and then life will get busy and then you'll fall off.

   25. MRMel Robbins14:42

       I think I just had a, like a whole, like, light bulb moment.

   26. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin14:47

       (laughs)

   27. MRMel Robbins14:48

       So, let's go to the example where you said you're online, it happens to all of us, you see a fitness influencer that looks fantastic and they're doing yoga on a mat, beach, and you think to yourself, "I really need to be doing that. I need to be taking better care of that." That right there, that "I should, I need to," the adding of the thing to the do- to-do list, that's when it becomes almost like a form of shame.

   28. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin15:13

       Yes.

   29. MRMel Robbins15:13

       Like, you're making yourself wrong in that moment 'cause you're not doing the thing that you think you should be doing. I think that is such a common experience to see a cleanse, to see somebody doing yoga, to see somebody hiking or doing whatever and to then go, "I should be doing that and the fact that I haven't made time for that means that I am doing something wrong." Is there something you could do in that moment that ac- that truly is self-care, that being part that you're gonna teach us today?

   30. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin15:45

       Yeah. So that's, I mean, that's the boundary, right? That's

4. 15:48 – 19:03

   Boundaries vs. reactions: how to learn to respond instead of react

   1. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin15:48

      where boundaries come in.

   2. MRMel Robbins15:48

      What- what is a boundary?

   3. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin15:50

      (laughs) Um, you know, I think that, I'm glad that you asked that question, Mel, because I do think we see boundaries everywhere. Like, you open any app and everybody is talking about boundaries, so it can be a little bit eye roll. My take on boundaries is different, and we're gonna get into that. But essentially, the boundary doesn't always mean saying no. So this was an aha that I had where I kind of came to an understanding. This was in, I think it was 2016. I just graduated my psychiatry residency at GW, um, George Washington University in DC. And, um, I got my dream job on the faculty and I was gonna be helping to run the women's mental health clinic and, you know, bright eyed and bushy tailed. Um, and my advisor, my mentor, she took me out for lunch on my first day.

   4. MRMel Robbins16:36

      Mm-hmm.

   5. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin16:36

      And she was like, "I'm gonna give you a piece of advice, Pooja." And I was like, "Oh, maybe it's about, like, how to dose SSRIs or, you know, uh, some secret." And she was like, um, her advice was, "You don't need to answer your office phone. You can let it go to voicemail, listen to what they want, decide, and then respond." And that's when I was like, "Oh, the boundary is the pause and then you always have three options: yes, no, or negotiate." Because the truth is that no always comes with a cost, whether that is emotional or financial or political or interpersonal, right? Like, no is not accessible for everybody. But the pause, you can always do the pause. So for me, in that example, it was like, okay, you know, sometimes the phone rings and it's the front desk and they just have some insurance paperwork that they need me to sign and I can call them back and I can say, "Oh, I'll do it at the end of the day." But sometimes, like, it's a patient who I know if she misses a day of her Adderall or her ADHD medicine-

   6. MRMel Robbins17:37

      Mm-hmm.

   7. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin17:37

      ... she will literally get into a car accident. Let me put in that refill right away. Right? So you pause and you reflect. So it's- it's about responding as opposed to reacting. And so that's what a boundary means for me. It- it is that- that pause. It- it's the, to be a little woo-woo about it, it's like the existential space in between.

   8. MRMel Robbins18:01

      Why do we need a pause? How does that connect to the fact that we don't take good care of ourselves?

   9. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin18:07

      Yeah. In order to actually be able to take care of yourself, you need to really acknowledge that you are a self that needs taking care of. Like, that you are actually an embodied person that has your own wants and needs and preferences and desires and- and- and that is something that actually is a little bit radical.... shockingly, in our society. And the first step to it, again, is the boundary, because that's the pause, that's the space in between. And when we're talking about real self-care, there's four principles; boundaries, compassion, values, and power. The boundaries are the backbone. It's actually what you put in between, and it demarcates your own space. So, so that's why they're so important. Like, if there were one psychological skill for folks to learn when it comes to, uh, you know, doing life, it's

5. 19:03 – 24:29

   Are your boundaries strong enough? Ask yourself these 5 questions to find out

   1. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin19:03

      boundaries.

   2. MRMel Robbins19:03

      I understand in your practice there are five questions that you use as almost like an assessment, you write about it in your book, that give you almost a temperature check on where somebody is on this scale of boundaries and power and values. Can you walk us through those five questions?

   3. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin19:23

      Yes. Do I feel motivated to tackle my tasks, or am I overwhelmed, or am I apathetic? Are there any particular people or situations that are constantly draining me? Do I set aside regular time for rest, or am I always pushing through and gritting my teeth? Do I ever ask for help, and when people offer help, am I able to actually receive it? Am I making time for things that truly matter to me, not to my kids, not to my partner, not to society, but to me, or am I constantly caught up in things that don't serve me?

   4. MRMel Robbins20:02

      I think I just heard the person who's with us right now slump a little.

   5. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin20:05

      (laughs)

   6. MRMel Robbins20:07

      Uh, there were a couple of those, especially the one, "Do I set aside time for rest, or am I always pushing through?" that really was, like, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. What does it tell you as a psychiatrist when someone is answering these questions as a, "No, I don't feel like I can tackle my tasks," or, "I'm really drained by situations," or, "I never rest," or, "I don't allow people to help me, and I definitely don't make time for things that truly matter to me, not to everyone else, and frankly, I don't even know what matters to me, I'm so busy taking care of everyone else." Like, what does that tell you when you walk somebody through these questions?

   7. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin20:54

      The reality is that's all of us. That is all of us. That is all my patients. That is me at various times in my life. Like, I think that we need to understand, again, going back to the fact that we're living in this society together, we are all under these pressures, so of course you're going to feel this way. And, when I see this come up in my practice, again, this is everybody, naming it. Naming it is so powerful because then we can actually say, "Okay, what do we do? How do we work on this?" I imagine that most, most folks listening are, yeah, they checked off yes for everything. I don't want anybody to panic. I don't want you to freak out. I think that we need to also kind of reframe the conversation on burnout a little bit, because I think that, you know, when you... if you've checked all these things, you, you might be burnt out, but I think that we kind of treat burnout as, like, this dreaded, catastrophic thing. Um, but when something is so dreaded, you engage in denial, you engage in avoidance. And then, you know, it takes landing yourself in the hospital or losing your job, getting into a car accident to finally say, "Oh, yeah, I guess, I guess I am burnt out." So in reality, I think that we need to understand, like, we're all gonna burn out. We all burn out. Like, that's, that's just part of the game right now because of the world that we live in. And the whole process of boundaries and real self-care is to recognize it sooner, to recognize it when it's, like, a little b burnout as opposed to a big B burnout so that you can start to get back on the wagon, start to get back into your boundaries, right? So you're not reaching that place of, you know, on, on the floor (laughs) , you know. I'm saying this because I want folks to understand that this isn't... There are solutions. This is not incurable, and I walk patients through this all the time, and I, you know, I will say, um, if you're somebody who's type A or perfectionistic or a workaholic, not that I kn- know anybody like that-

   8. MRMel Robbins23:03

      (laughs)

   9. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin23:04

      (laughs) ... you will probably go through this cycle more often, because you are constantly sort of moving forward. So, I will say, for myself, I go through this, like, every six months, where I have to kind of, like, reconfigure and think about my boundaries and, and relearn how to talk to myself. But, there's a silver lining, it gets easier each time. It gets so much easier each time.

   10. MRMel Robbins23:29

       How do you define burnout?

   11. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin23:32

       I think it's a little bit chicken and egg-

   12. MRMel Robbins23:34

       Okay.

   13. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin23:34

       ... when it comes to boundaries and burnout, because, uh, one of the characteristics of burnout is feeling like your actions have no meaning. Uh, almost like, kind of like a cynicism, like you're just going through the motions, but nothing that you do actually really matters or is gonna impact anything. And, and when you don't have boundaries, you also sort of feel like everything's closing in on you. You don't have a choice. You're not actually living your life. Your life is sort of happening to you. So, uh, you know, I think it's tough. I think that, you know, this is one of the thing, this is why therapy takes so long, (laughs) you know, because you have to tease apart all the different pieces. Um, because certainly n- not having boundaries makes it more likely that you're going to become burnt out. But when you are burnt out and, and even little b burnout, your boundaries are usually worse. So it's, like, this cycle that keeps going.

6. 24:29 – 29:10

   3 warning signs you’re in need of a self-care overhaul

   1. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin24:29

   2. MRMel Robbins24:29

      So what does somebody's life look like if they don't have any boundaries?

   3. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin24:34

      Yeah, so there's three telltale signs that tell me a patient doesn't have boundaries. The first is that they are angry and irritable all the time, that everybody around them knows (laughs) that they're kind of like a ticking timebomb, but that the person actually, they don't... They just think that they're selfless, they think that they're doing everything for everyone else. So, the perfect example is, you know, the mom that stays up all night on Christmas Eve wrapping all the gifts, um, and then the next morning is just like a terror, and is like, "Oh my god. Like, don't you guys see that this, you know, wrapping paper is the perfect one." And everyone's just like, "Oh my gosh, like mom has lost her, you know, has lost the plot."

   4. MRMel Robbins25:18

      You mean me.

   5. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin25:18

      (laughs)

   6. MRMel Robbins25:19

      Yeah, you mean me. That is me.

   7. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin25:20

      (laughs)

   8. MRMel Robbins25:20

      Like, and you know what I- w- what I was thinking is, "Oh my gosh, I have that. I do get angry."

   9. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin25:25

      Mm-hmm.

   10. MRMel Robbins25:26

       I go overboard and I get angry when I don't feel appreciated and then I feel like a victim, and I have this whole thing where my family takes me for granted, and, "You're not thankful enough," when really, I ha- I didn't need to buy matching wrapping paper. I didn't need to go overboard and basically drive myself into the ground to make everything perfect, and instead of having a boundary with myself and stopping myself, I then become a victim and get pissed off at my family because they don't appreciate all the stuff that they never even asked me to do in the first place, and they don't even want me to do.

   11. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin26:03

       Exactly, exactly. And- and that's actually, that's the other thing that I see. That's the second sign, is- is expecting everybody else to be constantly grateful and thanking you when in fact they haven't even asked for any of these things, but you have this underlying assumption and need that people need to be pouring their thanks out to you, and then, you know, you're resentful when you don't get it. But the reality is nobody asked for it. You- you made that choice. That can be a sign, right? You are expecting other people to constantly be thanking you for all of the things that you're doing for them. Um, the person that doesn't have boundaries is, uh, constantly feeling like they are managing their life as opposed to living their life. Uh, I see this a lot with my patients who are, uh, you know, all women, mostly moms, right? Like, you feel like you're managing your family as opposed to actually being part of your family because you haven't taken the space to, you know, unload some things and- and actually allow yourself to be present. So, another sign is that you constantly fantasize about escape, so whether that is, "I just need to go to a retreat for a week. I just need to lay on the beach." Um, you know, "I just need to..." (laughs) One of my personal favorites that I've engaged in before is, "I just wanna, I wanna move to, like, a vegetable farm and just have this very simple life, right? Where I just farm," you know? So, the reality is those are escapes and your mind goes there because you feel so ov- overwhelmed and you feel powerless about actually making decisions and choices in your life.

   12. MRMel Robbins27:52

       You know, as I'm listening to you, I'm having this massive realization about boundaries. I've always known that boundaries are not for other people. Boundaries are like my rules for myself, but the mistake that I'm realizing that I made is that I've always made those rules about what I do and don't do with other people, and I've never hit that pause and truly thought about what are the rules that I have for myself that allow me to truly care for myself? And it's a completely different way to look at this topic and why the pause then becomes essential so that you stop yourself from constantly pouring into everybody else and then running them over when they're not grateful like I always do, or feeling like the victim or unappreciated. Wow, this is like kind of pulling on a string of a sweater and now my whole life is unraveling before my eyes and I realize I have a lot of work to do.

   13. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin28:58

       I'm so sorry. (laughs)

   14. MRMel Robbins28:59

       Well, I should be thanking you.

   15. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin29:00

       (laughs)

   16. MRMel Robbins29:00

       Like, I- I'm- I'm happy to do the work-

   17. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin29:03

       (laughs)

   18. MRMel Robbins29:03

       ... uh, to not drive myself crazy and into the ground and make my family, you know, the- the villains here. So, it does

7. 29:10 – 34:46

   Your step-by-step guide for setting strong boundaries, starting today

   1. MRMel Robbins29:10

      beg the question though, how the heck do you start? I mean, am I gonna put my hands on my hips and be like, "All right, no wrapping on Christmas presents. You guys are getting them in the grocery bags this year and you better be grateful." Like, "I have a boundary." Like, how do you do this? (laughs)

   2. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin29:23

      (laughs) Well, don't do that.

   3. MRMel Robbins29:24

      Okay. (laughs)

   4. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin29:25

      S- you wanna start small. You wanna start small, and so that means actually not with your family because your family is actually the hardest. That's- that's like advanced level, setting boundaries with family or in-laws. You wanna actually start really, really small.

   5. MRMel Robbins29:41

      Wh- why is it hard to set boundaries with family?

   6. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin29:44

      Because you have years and years and years of history with family that you have to undo. So, you know, if- if mom has been folding laundry and- and putting everyone's, you know, folded laundry in their drawers for the past 30 years and all of a sudden mom says like, "Hey guys, I'm not gonna do laundry anymore," like people are gonna have some feelings.

   7. MRMel Robbins30:04

      Actually, can I say something about that?

   8. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin30:07

      Yeah.

   9. MRMel Robbins30:08

      So, I stopped doing laundry a couple years ago, and our son, Oakley, he will admit this and he will not be, like, upset at all that I'm about to share it. I don't know if this is like a dyslexic thing. He does not fold his clothes. He does his own laundry, but he will do the laundry and then it's in big piles and it's kind of thrown into drawers, and the feelings that you're talking about that people have when you stop doing something...It's not just what they have, it's what you have. Because I would walk past his room and see the state that that was in, and the feelings that would come up would be like, "What the..." And I would have to stop myself from going in and folding the clothes and doing the things that I used to do. And so I think you, it's probably both their feelings that come up when you change, and also your feelings that come up.

   10. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin31:04

       Yeah, I'm so glad that you brought this up because it's actually, this reminds me of two things. You have to let go of control. You have to let the other person do what they're gonna do, even if it means a messy underwear drawer and it drives you crazy. You have to let go of control. The other thing is, it's gonna take longer. It's gonna take longer, people are gonna do it their own way. A lot of times we avoid the yes/no and negotiate because it's just easier to say yes and just do it and get it done and then you can just move on with your day. But instead, when you stop and you negotiate or you say no or it's this whole thing, and we kind of trick ourselves into thinking it's not worth it. But the reality is, it is worth it because you're, you're setting new expectations for the future.

   11. MRMel Robbins31:49

       For yourself and for them.

   12. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin31:50

       Correct.

   13. MRMel Robbins31:50

       That, "I'm not gonna get upset about this because my energy is needed elsewhere."

   14. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin31:56

       Correct.

   15. MRMel Robbins31:57

       Wow. So how do you get started if we're gonna start small and not with our family?

   16. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin32:04

       So you wanna start at really low stakes risks, so very baby risks. So I will tell you with my patients and, and even for me for t- at times, it's, it's remedial. It's like, you know, "I am going to sit down and eat lunch."

   17. MRMel Robbins32:20

       You mean like actually eat but not stand-

   18. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin32:22

       Yes.

   19. MRMel Robbins32:22

       ... and eat and work and talk and eat?

   20. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin32:23

       And not in front of my computer, yes. I'm gonna sit down at a table and actually eat lunch. I have a patient who, uh, is a healthcare worker, and so, you know, as we got to working on these things, we realized she can go an entire eight-hour shift, um, on the wards working and not eat anything and not drink anything. Not even have a sip of water. So we start small, like we start really basic, like, "Okay, every hour you're gonna go to the nurse's station, and you're gonna drink some water." Like that's where you start. You do not start with your kids and Christmas or your mother-in-law and Thanksgiving. (laughs) You start by, you know, the drinking water 'cause those skills, they build on each other.

   21. MRMel Robbins33:06

       Mm.

   22. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin33:06

       They give you confidence and then you work your way up.

   23. MRMel Robbins33:09

       Well, I could see that. You could set like an alarm on your phone to go off every hour during the workday with a nice little buzz or something and like that's your little pause moment.

   24. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin33:17

       Yep.

   25. MRMel Robbins33:17

       Like, "Oh, this is a reminder that I have to have a boundary with work right now so that I can care for myself." Can I ask a question about that?

   26. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin33:27

       Yeah.

   27. MRMel Robbins33:28

       How is telling yourself you're gonna take a break a boundary? Do you see what I mean?

   28. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin33:34

       Yeah.

   29. MRMel Robbins33:34

       Because I think when you hear boundary, I think fence.

   30. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin33:36

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
8. 34:46 – 41:42

   Why setting boundaries is the ultimate form of self-care (and how to do it right)

   1. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin34:46

      Yeah. So I, I wanna understand a little bit better why you chose that limit. Why getting in bed at 9:00 was, uh, something that felt important for your well-being. What was the decision-making process and, and what was going wrong that led to it?

   2. MRMel Robbins35:03

      Um, I know that when I get a great night's sleep, I feel better, I have a better day, I'm a kinder person, uh, it allows me to show up for myself and for my family and for my colleagues at work. And if I don't get in bed by 9:00, what ends up happening is my husband does, and then I tell myself, "Oh, I'm just gonna do a couple things quickly and then I'll be in the bed." And then like a lot of people, I find that two hours goes by, and I've either spent it on my phone or I have watched another episode of a series that is not that important or I have futzed around, and now all of a sudden it's 11:00 and my husband is sound asleep and I'm thinking, "Oh, I shoulda gone to bed," and so now I'm making myself wrong. And then there's another impact because I also feel really good when I get out of bed early and I have enough time to be able to get a full walk in and be able to start my day, uh, at a pace that feels nurturing rather than that feels like I've been shoved into a cannon and shot out of it. And so I, like that's the reason, and so if, uh, it sort of unravels from there. And the later that I go to bed, the more of an impact it has on the chaos in the morning and the things I don't have time to do that truly take care of me.

   3. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin36:40

      Got it. Okay.

   4. MRMel Robbins36:41

      That was a long answer, I'm sorry. (laughs)

   5. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin36:42

      Yeah, no that's- that's what's great. That was great. And I- and for folks that are listening, I want you to be thinking through all of these different steps, and the answer that I give, I want you to try and apply it to the specific situation in your life. So, what I'm hearing is the- the decision to go to bed at 9:00 is the faux self-care.

   6. MRMel Robbins37:10

      The who?

   7. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin37:10

      The faux self-care.

   8. MRMel Robbins37:11

      Faux? You mean, like, fake self-care? Are you shaming me, Dr. Puja? I mean, what is going on here? So, fa- there is fake self-care?

   9. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin37:19

      Yeah. It's- it's... When I say faux, I mean it's the superficial level. The real self-care is actually all of the decisions that you made to get to that place of going to sleep at 9:00 PM. Because for another person, their bedtime could be 11:00. Somebody else, their bedtime could be 7:00. So, the reason that we're putting that label on it is so that everybody knows that their real self-care is gonna be different.

   10. MRMel Robbins37:45

       Oh. So the bedtime is the thing?

   11. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin37:49

       The bedtime is the thing.

   12. MRMel Robbins37:50

       And I'm focused on the time I'm going to bed, just like we were talking earlier about focusing on going to the yoga class, and the class and the bedtime is the thing that's superficial, the thing that you have to do, the thing that turns into the shame when you don't do it. But the opportunity for power is to go deeper and to understand what exactly is underneath the thing and the way you're trying to care for yourself by going to yoga or getting in bed by a certain time.

   13. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin38:24

       Correct.

   14. MRMel Robbins38:25

       So, the boundary for me is more about not doing those things that keep me awake and keep me from going to sleep and getting the rest that I need so that I can wake up in the morning and truly set myself up to feel good again. Does that make sense?

   15. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin38:47

       Yep. Yes.

   16. MRMel Robbins38:48

       'Cause you're right. I've been focused on nine o'clock, and then the second nine o'clock rolls around and I blow right past it, now I'm making myself wrong because I've stayed up late, versus just focusing on... So, what do I focus on?

   17. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin39:01

       Yeah, you-

   18. MRMel Robbins39:01

       I love that we're going granular.

   19. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin39:03

       Yes. (laughs)

   20. MRMel Robbins39:03

       Because I think you're going- you're trying to challenge us to think about the deeper reasons why this matters and why you as a person deserve this kind of care from yourself.

   21. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin39:14

       Yes. Yes. So the- the- the reason that boundaries are the first principle of real self-care is to even be able to make space, to think in this way, to look at how your day is going, how your week is going. You- you need to take some time back from other people in your life, from responsibilities, right? So you need to have the time to actually think, "Okay, I need to go to bed a little bit later. How am I gonna make that happen? What are the things that I'm doing to procrastinate?" The boundary is the way that you make the space to be e- even be able to have this conversation with yourself. It's- it's not just the operational. Yes, there is the operational boundary of, "I'm gonna turn screens off. I'm gonna..." You know, all of that is just as important, but it's- it's also, like, kind of a meta thing, too.

   22. MRMel Robbins40:05

       I just got a big insight-

   23. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin40:06

       Okay. (laughs)

   24. MRMel Robbins40:07

       ... about myself that I'm gonna share because I hope it has- I hope it's- as you're listening, it maybe helps you think deeper. I just realized something. As you're pushing me to think more deeply about what I actually need, I have got- just come through a period where I have been working so much because of changes here at work and my book manuscript was due, that by the time I rolled into the TV room where my husband had been watching TV for half an hour and he's ready to go to bed, I'm just finishing work. And I'm staying awake because I haven't relaxed at all-

   25. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin40:49

       Yeah.

   26. MRMel Robbins40:50

       ... until that moment. I'm not ready to go to bed. And so the boundary really isn't about going to bed at 9:00. It's really about taking back more of my time from work-

   27. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin41:02

       Yeah.

   28. MRMel Robbins41:02

       ... and from other demands. That it- this kind of tension around getting to bed at the right time has way more to do with how I've overextended myself everywhere, and that means it's more than a bedtime. It's taking a deeper look at, where am I working on things that don't matter to me? Where have I said yes where I need to actually say no? What do I want my evenings to look like so that I feel like I get a little bit of time and enjoyment and rest and entertainment back? Wow.

   29. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin41:38

       Well, my work here is done. (laughs)

9. 41:42 – 52:51

   Do you feel guilt or shame when you say “no” to people?

   1. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin41:42

   2. MRMel Robbins41:42

      (laughs) Well, can we unpack one more? Because-

   3. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin41:44

      Yeah.

   4. MRMel Robbins41:44

      ... I think it would be really helpful. Let's go to the example that you said, of somebody that's got a super busy day, and you're starting to realize that, "Holy cow. I- at the end of the day, I feel like a raisin, and my urine is bright orange because I have not had a droplet of water, and I need to set a boundary of taking a break every hour and making sure I drink something or I eat something." Can we unpack what that's actually about or how you draw that boundary or what that means?

   5. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin42:17

      Yeah. Um, it's gonna be really painful. (laughs)

   6. MRMel Robbins42:21

      To pee or to not?

   7. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin42:22

      No.

   8. MRMel Robbins42:22

      Okay. (laughs)

   9. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin42:23

      No, it's just that it's gonna be really painful to draw the boundary. And- and- and I think... So- so there's no, like, shorthand. It's- it's just kind of like you just have to do it. But the reason it's hard is because you're going to feel guilty. You're going to feel selfish. For most people, especially at work or parenting, the reason that you're constantly going, going, going is because you're...... taking care of everybody else. You have all these demands coming at you and, you know, you wanna be a good professional, you wanna be a good mom, you wanna be a good dad. Um, so- so the hard part isn't in, like, knowing that you should do it and- and deciding to do it. The hard part is actually in, you're gonna feel guilty, and what do you do with that?

   10. MRMel Robbins43:06

       Tell us.

   11. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin43:06

       Which I do have a tool for, yes. (laughs)

   12. MRMel Robbins43:08

       How do we do- why do we feel guilty?

   13. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin43:10

       That is a great question. So my- my theory is that the guilt actually is not ours. The guilt is something that we have internalized from a culture that prioritizes, um, productivity and status, and for women, uh, care-taking. You know, we raise girls, uh, to get their value in their ability to be accommodating to others. So- so I think that the guilt actually is coming from the outside.

   14. MRMel Robbins43:41

       Mm.

   15. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin43:42

       But that doesn't change that it sucks to feel guilty, and, you know, the number one reason that my patients struggle with boundaries is the guilt. So I'm gonna share a little, a tool that can help with the guilt. So- so this tool comes from acceptance and commitment therapy, which is a third-wave type of psychotherapy that incorporates Eastern, like, mindfulness and meditation in the concept. And I say that because I know folks that are listening, I know your audience is, uh, familiar with meditation and mindfulness, so hopefully this'll resonate.

   16. MRMel Robbins44:14

       But I've never heard of the third wave of this.

   17. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin44:18

       Oh, okay.

   18. MRMel Robbins44:18

       So that is a brand new concept for me.

   19. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin44:19

       Okay.

   20. MRMel Robbins44:20

       Okay.

   21. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin44:20

       Um, so imagine that you are at a sushi restaurant, so one of those sushi restaurants where the plates are coming around on the conveyor belt. There is a sushi chef, and he is at the center of all of the plates. That chef, the sushi chef, is your brain. That's your mind. The plates of sushi that are going around the conveyor belt are your thoughts and your feelings and your memories and your desires rolling through over the course of a whole day. And now, uh, you know, you're sitting at that- that sushi bar and you... there's gonna be plates that are really appetizing, like, that you're gonna wanna pick up and grab and gobble. You know, for me, that is, like, spicy tuna roll. I love spicy tuna roll, right? But then there's gonna be plates that, like, really are unappetizing. For me, that's, I really don't like when the shrimp has its head on. Like, I find that to be really gross. (laughs)

   22. MRMel Robbins45:14

       I don't like that, like, kind of really s- skin-colored, fleshy, bleh-

   23. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin45:22

       (laughs)

   24. MRMel Robbins45:22

       ... sea urchin, like-

   25. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin45:23

       Yes.

   26. MRMel Robbins45:23

       ... watery texture thing.

   27. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin45:24

       Yeah.

   28. MRMel Robbins45:25

       Bleh.

   29. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin45:25

       Right. There's gonna be, right-

   30. MRMel Robbins45:26

       Yes.
10. 52:51 – 1:12:02

    Guilt vs. selflessness: how boundaries help you win the emotional tug-of-war

    1. MRMel Robbins52:51

       you because of the guilt. You talk about selfishness. You said guilt and selfishness are the two emotions that come up. How do you deal with selfishness? Is it the exact same thing as a sushi plate?

    2. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin53:02

       Yeah, so I... The sushi plate definitely helps, for sure. Um, one of the other things that I think about with selfishness is, is just the fact that we're kind of constantly ping-ponging back and forth between selfish versus selfless. And, and obviously for, for women, you know, selfless is something that is really put on a pedestal, and selfish is something that is, you know, this dreaded outcome, when in reality, the healthy way to be living is to be in shades of gray, to be in, in the middle place. You know, I, I mentioned earlier that one of the signs of not having boundaries is to feel like you're managing your family-

    3. MRMel Robbins53:45

       Hmm.

    4. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin53:45

       ... as opposed to being part of your family. I'm not saying that every single decision, you know, is according to your preference. It's like, maybe one out of every, like, 10 decisions that you make is according to your preference, that, that you're actually including yourself. I find that when my patients feel selfish, it's usually because they are engaging in some sort of black and white thinking. Um, you know, they're, they're kind of all or nothing. Either I'm selfish or I'm selfless. And the reality is, it's, it's a middle ground.

    5. MRMel Robbins54:19

       What are the top three boundaries that you find that people really need to set in their life?

    6. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin54:25

       So, one of the biggest things is, is all of the decisions that you make as a parent, whether that is when your kids are really little around, like, you know, how you're gonna feed your kid, how you're gonna get your kid to sleep, who's gonna take care of your kid, all the way up to, you know, "What college is my kid gonna go to? What are they gonna do with their life?" Which, Mel, I know you're, you're (laughs) you just completed. Um, the boundary is...... not ruminating so much about all those things, not assuming that you have so much control. So, I spend a lot of time with my patients kind of helping them understand that, that this thing, these things in parenting a- don't need to be constantly litigated in your mind. Of course, work is such a huge, you know, aspect of, of what I talk about with my patients and, and just a lot of things that you said too, Mel, like being able to disconnect, finding a way to let go of, you know, whatever work project or whatever dynamic that's going on with your boss and giving yourself permission to let it go.

    7. MRMel Robbins55:39

       How do you do that when you're worried about getting fired? And I'm not saying that you're doing a bad job, but I am shocked at how quickly I see this, especially like with my adult kids or with friends who they're clearly in a situation that's not working for them, but it's like, "But I can't get another job. But I got bills to pay.

    8. NANarrator55:58

       (mumbling)

    9. MRMel Robbins56:00

       And so there's this narrative in your mind that is so fear-driven that is a part of this dynamic where you've lost power. So, how do you begin to start to set boundaries at work when you've convinced yourself you have no power and you need this paycheck?

    10. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin56:17

        There's, um, a couple things for this. So one is, again, I, I keep going back to the start small. The reason for that, the reason for the, you know, drink water, take lunch, like, is because that's a small risk.

    11. MRMel Robbins56:30

        Mm.

    12. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin56:30

        That's a small risk. And then you can see, you can see how your boss reacts. You can see how your coworkers react. If you're at a place where people, like, lose their minds because (laughs) you're taking 15 minutes to eat lunch, okay, well, well then taking a bigger risk is probably gonna be, uh, you know, make more waves than you want it to. So, so you're collecting information. You're, I, I kinda call it collecting data. Uh, you don't wanna take that big risk first, because yeah, it's true, you need your job. The other thing that I would say is I find that there are places that we can exert agency that might be hidden, or, or are not sort of top level that you are constantly thinking about. You know, when you're in a toxic work situation, you're constantly sort of just like, "Oh, God, like, this person said this and I have no..." But sometimes there can be smaller things that really make an impact.

    13. MRMel Robbins57:28

        Like what?

    14. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin57:29

        So, I, I experienced this actually when I was a medical student, um, which talk about no agency, right? You're just on this conveyor belt. I was in a surgical rotation that was, like, very toxic, um, and I realized, I was miserable, I realized my, my team, they never called me by my name. They were just like-

    15. MRMel Robbins57:50

        Ever?

    16. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin57:50

        No. They were just like, "Hey, med student. Hey, med student." My boundary, I couldn't leave, I couldn't, I was in med school, was every time somebody said that, I would be like, "Oh, my name's Pooja." And that had me feel a little bit like, okay, I'm, you know, exerting myself.

    17. MRMel Robbins58:07

        I don't actually think that's a small example.

    18. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin58:09

        Hmm.

    19. MRMel Robbins58:10

        And the reason why I don't think that's a small example is because everything that you're teaching us is about caring for self, and that requires you to have a level of self-awareness and respect for yourself that you, in these moments, will advocate for yourself, will ask for what you need, will tell people, like, the correct pronunciation of your name or that, "This is my name."

    20. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin58:43

        Mm-hmm.

    21. MRMel Robbins58:44

        And I do believe that you do reclaim your power in the tiniest of moments, because there's so many times during your day where you just let something slide, and those are examples, whether it's somebody who belittles you or disrespects you or mispronounces your name and you just kinda let it slide, that you don't honor yourself and what you need. And so I do think, I think that's a big example.

    22. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin59:15

        Hmm. Thank you (laughs) .

    23. MRMel Robbins59:17

        You're welcome. And it's important to point out, and I'm gonna go back to the water-

    24. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin59:21

        Hmm.

    25. MRMel Robbins59:21

        ... because I remember when I left my job as a public defender in New York City and we moved to Boston and I, the only job that I could get in the legal field was working for this huge law firm, because I was not licensed in the State of Massachusetts so I couldn't do trial work, and I freaking hated that job. And I remember there were a couple times that I went outside the office for lunch, and I came back and I was not admonished, but one time it was a friend who was like, "Dude, you know, the partner was looking for you and they couldn't find you and they were really upset and you weren't in the building and, you know, I wouldn't do that." And it was this huge moment where I immediately felt like I had no power over my life.

    26. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin1:00:08

        Mm-hmm.

    27. MRMel Robbins1:00:08

        And so I came up with all these little strategies, one of which was if I would go out, I'd leave my jacket on my chair, and I also moved my desk so they couldn't walk by and see my computer, but that they'd have to look in and see the back of it. Just small ways to kind of... And every time I would leave the building, it was this tiny little act of defiance-

    28. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin1:00:27

        Mm-hmm.

    29. MRMel Robbins1:00:28

        ... but it was a boundary and a way for me to say, "I still have some agency here," and I think simply doing these small things first help you do the bigger things later. How do you even know if you're starting to practice this type of deeper care for self? I wouldn't even call it self-care. It's like care for self-

    30. PLDr. Pooja Lakshmin1:00:53

        Mm-hmm.

Episode duration: 1:12:02