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How to Read Body Language to Get What You Want: 6 Simple Psychological Tricks to Be More Confident

Do you want to know how to talk to anyone with ease and confidence? In this episode, you will learn science-backed psychological tricks to be more successful, charismatic, and influential today. Vanessa Van Edwards is the founder of The Science of People (@Vvanedwards a behavior lab that studies high achievers and the science of confidence and body language. Her research proves that anyone can learn these practical skills and become a more successful person by using the same simple habits that almost every high achiever has. Whether you want to be a better leader, land your dream job, achieve big goals, or align your life with what you want, this is the episode for you. For more resources related to today’s episode, click here for the podcast episode page: http://www.melrobbins.com/podcasts/episode-167 Follow The Mel Robbins Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themelrobbinspodcast I’m just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is NOT intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I’ll see you in the next episode. In this episode: 00:00 Intro 04:47: The shortcuts high achievers take to communicate effectively. 05:32: The mistake most people make when working on their goals. 08:08: These relationships are the most toxic ones. 13:34: What makes some kids more popular than others will surprise you. 15:41:How to make your friendships stronger. 20:29: People who make mistakes are more likable. 24:47: How your toes give you away when you’re in a group. 26:13: Do this when you walk into a room to appear more confident. 34:23: Why your office chair should have arm rests and swivel. 39:12: Here’s why you are more likely to believe gestures than words. 42:21: How to stop using vocal fry or get someone else to stop doing it. 44:07: Use these words to set your team up for success. 49:11: What to add to your calendar every day to keep you motivated. 51:08: What are the best conversation starters? 56:53: How other people’s fear is contagious. 1:01:12: The worst place to stand in a room when you’re at a party. 1:04:53: How to figure out what you’re really good at. 1:14:41: What do highly effective people do at the end of the day? #confidence #confident #bodylanguage — Follow Mel: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melrobbins/ TikTok: http://tiktok.com/@melrobbins Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melrobbins LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melrobbins Website: http://melrobbins.com​ — Sign up for Mel’s newsletter: https://melrob.co/sign-up-newsletter A note from Mel to you, twice a week, sharing simple, practical ways to build the life you want. — Subscribe to Mel’s channel here: https://www.youtube.com/melrobbins​?sub_confirmation=1 — Listen to The Mel Robbins Podcast 🎧 New episodes drop every Monday & Thursday! https://melrob.co/spotify https://melrob.co/applepodcasts https://melrob.co/amazonmusic — Looking for Mel’s books on Amazon? Find them here: The Let Them Theory: https://amzn.to/3IQ21Oe The Let Them Theory Audiobook: https://amzn.to/413SObp The High 5 Habit: https://amzn.to/3fMvfPQ The 5 Second Rule: https://amzn.to/4l54fah

Vanessa Van EdwardsguestMel Robbinshost
Apr 25, 20241h 20mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 4:47

    Intro

    1. VE

      What's your story?

    2. MR

      Oh, I hate that question.

    3. VE

      Okay. (laughs) Okay. (laughs) Here is a classic mistake that I see all the time. Hey, everyone.

    4. MR

      You're on Zoom and your shoulders-

    5. VE

      And your shoulders-

    6. MR

      ... are up at your ears.

    7. VE

      ... are up your ears. Morning.

    8. MR

      (laughs)

    9. VE

      Your first impression is now little, small, defeated. You want to maximize the distance between your ear and your shoulder pretty much at all time. This one little cue completely changes your perception of me.

    10. MR

      Hey, it's Mel. I'm so glad you're here. And, you know, lately I've noticed more and more questions are coming in from around the world seeking advice on how to level up your success. So I decided to reach out to a world-renowned researcher who is the founder of the behavior lab called The Science of People. She has flown across the country to be here today for you, and she is armed with the latest research and so many takeaways that are gonna help you achieve the success that you deserve in your life and your career. Vanessa Van Edwards is the founder of The Science of People, which is a behavior lab that studies high achievers and the science of confidence, charisma, and body language. She is the best-selling author of two books on interpersonal science. For all you new listeners, Vanessa is also one of the most popular guests that have ever appeared on The Mel Robbins Podcast because she has the unique ability to give you specific behaviors, specific habits that you can use immediately for greater success. Habits like what high achievers do with their hands to display power and intelligence, the specific place you should stand at a networking event. You'll also learn one thing you should never do in a conversation with someone else. I mean, there are so many takeaways and science-backed shortcuts that you're gonna learn today. I cannot wait for you to start implementing these to help you be more successful and achieve your goals. So please help me welcome Vanessa Van Edwards to The Mel Robbins Podcast.

    11. VE

      Woo, I'm so happy to be back. Thanks for-

    12. MR

      Uh-

    13. VE

      ... having me.

    14. MR

      I am so excited to see you. And I guess where I wanna start before we jump in-

    15. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    16. MR

      ... to all of the tools and the research, I mean, you just bring it every time I talk to you. Now, why does it matter to either know high achievers or to be one? Like, how does being a high achiever-

    17. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    18. MR

      ... other than the obvious, you're achieving your goals-

    19. VE

      Yeah.

    20. MR

      ... but why does it matter?

    21. VE

      I think that what's really crucial is that I've spent a career studying these high achievers, and I've noticed that they have very specific behavior patterns and communication patterns. And what they do is they take what I call communication shortcuts.

    22. MR

      Hmm.

    23. VE

      So they are able to say no more easily to difficult people. That is something that I think everyone wants.

    24. MR

      For sure.

    25. VE

      They are more easily able to achieve their goals and enjoy the process. So many people, they achieve their goals and have no s- no happiness, no satisfaction, no joy in achieving those goals. High performers, they enjoy the means and the ends. So there's the enjoyment, they're saying no to difficult people easily, and it's also, I think that from- from my perspective, high achievers very clearly are able to know who they are and they're able to share it. And so my goal today is to help people achieve those three things.

    26. MR

      I love that. You know, the person that is listening-

    27. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    28. MR

      ... to this conversation right now is somebody who is well-educated, they are driven-

    29. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    30. MR

      ... they are curious, they're looking for ways to improve their life, they want the best for their family and-

  2. 4:47 – 5:32

    The shortcuts high achievers take to communicate effectively.

    1. VE

      One thing that I noticed early on is that I think that there are two different types of energy. There's social energy and work energy. Social energy is the energy you spend every day having conversation, managing difficult people, thinking to yourself, "I" not, "I have an idea. How can I communicate this idea?" Presenting your ideas, managing interpersonal conflict, getting things done with people. That's social energy. Very different is your work energy. Your work energy is how you tackle your tasks. It's when you're breaking down your goals, it's how you're getting through your day, it's how you're, um, checking off all your- all your piles or sorting your papers. Those are two distinctly different types of energy. What most people do, and this is the mistake I think smart people make, is they focus only on work energy. All they're thinking

  3. 5:32 – 8:08

    The mistake most people make when working on their goals.

    1. VE

      about, a- all, in the morning is, "What tasks do I have? What's my email? What do I have to get done?" And they forget how much social interactions can cost us from an energy perspective. And so what I wanna think about is, okay, in your day, what are the things that give you social energy? The people who like, ugh, they just make you feel so good. The conversations, the interpersonal activities that make you feel good, they- they are like plugging into a charger.

    2. MR

      Okay.

    3. VE

      What are the things that take your social energy?The people, the interactions-

    4. MR

      (laughs) So it's the same things?

    5. VE

      ... the types of socializing. Th- it's different for everyone, right? So for example, so for me, I get social energy from one-to-one conversations. I get social energy from teaching. I lose social energy from chitchat. I am allergic to small talk. Even a little bit of small talk drains my battery faster than going right into deep conversation. So even, like if I'm having small talk with my Uber driver on the way to this interview, exhausting, right? I'm just like, "Ugh, I can't do it. I can't talk about the weather, I can't." But like this conversation, I'm charging, right? So it c- that could be different for certain people. Like introverts might feel that most social things take social energy.

    6. MR

      Yes.

    7. VE

      So you actually have to think about that list. Work energy is the same, and later we can do a little activity on this of, what work tasks fuel you? What gives you flow? What gives you productivity? What do you do, you're like, "I could do this all day"? Versus, of course, what tasks and work energy dr- what work tasks drain you? And this also could be home tasks, doesn't have to be just work. Right? Like, I don't mind doing the dishes so much. I pop in a podcast, I listen to you, I listen to my audiobook, I love a memoir, and like I'm kind of in my happy place. Whereas other people, oh, they dread it. So I think that what highly effective people do, to bring back this, is they are relentless. They are assertive in saying no to the social tasks that drain them or boxing them, which you can also do.

    8. MR

      'Kay.

    9. VE

      And they are relentless about grabbing the work that gives them work energy, taking it, and assertively saying, "I want it." So high performers, they are assertive about their social energy and their work energy, and they're very clear about it. (laughs)

    10. MR

      Are you recommending that instead of just waking up and kinda going through your day and scheduling the stuff that you need to do, that you take a beat and you think about, "Okay, what social stuff drains me and what social stuff energizes me? And what work stuff drains me and what work stuff energizes me? And I need to get really assertive with how I'm directing my energy and what I'm saying no to"?

    11. VE

      I need to know it and I need to ask for it, and the same thing goes for relationships. The relationships that are the most

  4. 8:08 – 13:34

    These relationships are the most toxic ones.

    1. VE

      toxic are not the toxic relationships, they're actually the ambivalent relationships.

    2. MR

      Oh.

    3. VE

      And s- this is, I think, the problem is with social energy and work energy, it's ambivalence that drains us the most. It's like an app running in the background. It's draining you without even realizing it. Ambivalent tasks and ambivalent relationships are the same. So the hardest category is not just, yes, those work tasks drain me. It's the tasks where you're like, "I kind of like it." Mm-mm. Mm mm mm. When someone says, "Kind of," I go, "Ooh." That was a flag for you. I don't want you to kind of like it, I don't want you to kind of like someone, it was okay hanging out with them. No. There's that famous adage now, you should be a heck yeah, not a yeah. Let's break that down into actual s- some actual tasks and some actual systems. So ambivalence is a problem of our work energy and our social energy, and highly effective people are very good at not having anything ambivalent.

    4. MR

      And what does ambivalent mean?

    5. VE

      Okay.

    6. MR

      It's a big word.

    7. VE

      Am- yes. Ambivalent means, um, you're not sure if you love it or hate it. You could take it or leave it. You feel neutral often when you do it. That is actually more dangerous. I'll give you an example that happens the most with people. Ambivalent relationships are actually the hardest. You might have that friend where you see them on your calendar and you're like, "Oh, yeah. Should I cancel? I'm so tired." (laughs) Or, "I'm not really looking forward to it, but we've been friends forever, and it's been on the calendar for a long time." And you hang out with them and you wonder, "Is this fun?"

    8. MR

      (laughs)

    9. VE

      Or as my, my good friend says, "Is this fun or am I just fun?" Right? Like sometimes really fun people can mask they're having fun, actually they're just fun but they're not actually having any fun. (laughs) So you're wondering, "Am I having fun or are they supporting me? Wait, was that passive aggressive? Why do I feel so tired?" When you leave this friend and you think, "Oh, I shoulda just stayed home and watched Netflix," when you leave and you can't remember anything you talked about, when you leave and you question, "Do they really like me? Did I learn anything? Did I get asked good questions?" That is the ambivalent relationship.

    10. MR

      And we pour a ton of energy into 'em.

    11. VE

      A ton. They take more energy than the good relationships and the toxic relationships. And so when you think about the people in your life, and I would highly recommend, make a list of all the people in your life and put a star next to the people who you would drop things to hang out with.

    12. MR

      Mm.

    13. VE

      Like you would move some things around to hang out with them. That's a good relationship. Then put a, um, a, a, a minus sign next to people who you dread hanging out with. Right? Sometimes these are obligatory relationships, uh, colleagues or family relationships you don't really love. That's fine. Know it. Own it. Don't pretend that you like hanging out with them. That's okay. It's okay that we have people

    14. NA

      (gagging)

    15. VE

      ... that are not our people. And then put a question mark next to the people who you're not sure if you would forget if you didn't hang out with them. (laughs) Right? You know those people that like weeks go by and you're like, "Man, haven't even thought (laughs) about that person"? Those question marks, please stop seeing them. Just for a while. Do you miss them? Is your life different not seeing them? I think we have to be really careful with our social energy.

    16. MR

      Well, and here's the other thing we don't think about. You're a question mark on somebody else's list.

    17. VE

      That's right.

    18. MR

      And you wouldn't want somebody to make time and hang out with you if they're sitting there across the table from you going, "Is this fun? Do I like this person?" And so don't do that to somebody else.

    19. VE

      Yes.

    20. MR

      And the other thing that I'm getting from this, because this makes so much sense, is that if you were to take that energy and time and focus it on the people that you really like that you don't see enough of, it would lift your life up and it would make those (laughs) relationships so-

    21. VE

      Even deeper.

    22. MR

      ... much better.

    23. VE

      That's it. You gotta say no to the bad to make room for the right.

    24. MR

      So Vanessa, what does your research show-... about the top habits of a high achiever.

    25. VE

      One is they start their day not just thinking about the to-do list, but thinking about their work and social energy. Second is they use the Pygmalion effect in their day. So the Pygmalion effect is after a Greek myth that, um, Pygmalion made a statue of a beautiful woman, and then he fell in love with the statue, and then he kissed her and she came to life. So this effect is studied in research that if you, uh, set up a good expectation, that expectation will come to life. So highly effective people are constantly using the power of labels to set up expectations. So they use labels for themselves, but they also use labels for others. So if they see someone who is an incredible speaker or presenter or organizer, they are constantly saying, "You are such a magician with presentations. I don't know how you do that." Or, "You are so good at cooking dinner. Thank you so much for cooking dinner." That expectation also turns people to life and then everyone's doing better. So, um, being clear in the beginning of the day, Pygmalion effect, uh, no ambivalence, so getting rid of all those ambivalent relationships and those ambivalent tasks. And the last one I would say is, um, the power of liking. So this is another study that I just love. This study changed my life, changed the way I think about likability. So I talked earlier about how you can be both assertive and likable.

    26. MR

      Yep.

    27. VE

      And I truly believe that. And here's how we become likable. We've talked a lot about assertiveness, but how do we become likable to parrot? So this is a study that was done by Van Sloan, and he studied high school students. These are kind of the original likable

  5. 13:34 – 15:41

    What makes some kids more popular than others will surprise you.

    1. VE

      kids, right? He was curious, why are some kids popular-

    2. MR

      Mm.

    3. VE

      ... and other kids not? So if you were to ask someone, you know, "Why are kids popular?" I probably would have guessed athletes or maybe they're the funniest, maybe they're the most attractive. So he looked at everything from a- athleticism to GPA to attractiveness to humor, as many variables as he could think of, and he found that there was, and this was across a variety of high schools and across a variety of grades, so it wasn't just one school. He found there was one single pattern amongst all the schools and all the grades. He found that the most liked kids, the most popular kids, had the longest list of people they liked.

    4. MR

      Aw.

    5. VE

      Yes. In other words-

    6. MR

      Aw.

    7. VE

      Yes. We are in control of our likability, that if we find ways to like more people, we become more likable. And in the hallways when he studied these really likable kids that everyone put on their like list, they weren't, you know, having hours long conversations in the cafeteria, they weren't, you know, checking in on everyone all the time. They were just acknowledging every single person in the hallway, usually by name. "Hey, Mel. Hey, Greg. Sarah, looking good."

    8. MR

      (laughs)

    9. VE

      Right? It was these micro moments-

    10. MR

      Right.

    11. VE

      ... of likability, and that really changed my perspective is one, it's not about other people, it's about you. You being likable is about spreading likability and it starts with you.

    12. MR

      Mm.

    13. VE

      That if you can find, and I mean assertively find ways to like people, you become more likable. And that means the onus is on you. That if you're ambivalent about those people, so those question marks on your list, stop hanging out for a little while. See if you miss them. If you do miss them, here's your next step. Find ways to aggressively and assertively like them. Find the things that you love about each other, find the commonalities, and make sure they know it. I think too often as adults especially, we- we- we're too cool to show that we like people.

    14. MR

      Right.

    15. VE

      You know, we play it cool, we don't- we hold

  6. 15:41 – 20:29

    How to make your friendships stronger.

    1. VE

      back, we don't want to be the first liker. No. My mission in life is to be first liker. I invite people to sit with me at conferences. I'm the first person to ask questions in conversation. If I like someone, I literally tell them, "I like you."

    2. MR

      (laughs)

    3. VE

      "I like you a lot." I am constantly telling the people I truly like, "I really like you. I like spending time with you. You're so interesting." Because if I know that I can truly say that, I want to be assertive about it. And so that's the next step is I think highly effective people, the reason they're so charismatic is they relentlessly pursue people they actually like, and then they share it.

    4. MR

      Aw.

    5. VE

      Yeah. So I like you, Mel.

    6. MR

      I- I adore you.

    7. VE

      (laughs) Okay, I'll take it.

    8. MR

      I like your brain, I like your takeaways, I like your energy, I like your enthusiasm.

    9. VE

      Woo, woo.

    10. MR

      I like what is clearly a commitment-

    11. VE

      Oh, yeah.

    12. MR

      ... that you have to helping us-

    13. VE

      Yeah.

    14. MR

      ... be more influential and also enjoy your life.

    15. VE

      Yeah. That's it.

    16. MR

      I- I- I got really choked up when you said that thing about the kid walking down the hallway. Like I- I- here I am crying over this-

    17. VE

      Yeah.

    18. MR

      ... silly example.

    19. VE

      It's so- I fi- I felt, uh, emotional when you said you adored me. I was like, "Oh." It feels so good.

    20. MR

      Well, you know, because I think so many of us walk around feeling like shit about ourselves.

    21. VE

      Yes.

    22. MR

      And so if somebody just walks by and is like, "Hey, I love your sweater. You look great today," you're like, "Oh, thank you."

    23. VE

      Yeah. Or even, "I really like working with you."

    24. MR

      Yeah.

    25. VE

      I don't know if I tell you that enough. I love when you're in a meeting with me.

    26. MR

      Aw.

    27. VE

      Right? Like, to be able to say that and that's why it's so critical that first exercise of- of knowing who you like and not being ambivalent 'cause I don't want you to fake that. Right? I only want you to be able to say that if you truly believe it. And so spreading likes, it become- it feels so good and I also think it prevents our burnout. I think that the way that we prevent burnout is yes, we can be doing lots of things, but if we're working with people we like and we're doing tasks we like and we can all feel good about it, it gives energy. Like it ma- it makes you feel so good. And so I think that making that list of people you like, I want that list to get longer.

    28. MR

      Mm.

    29. VE

      Right? I want you to find ways to like more people because that makes you so likable.

    30. MR

      Wow. You mentioned, um, the fake.

  7. 20:29 – 24:47

    People who make mistakes are more likable.

    1. VE

      Okay. So I think there's a misconception that to be likable, you have to be perfect-

    2. MR

      Hmm.

    3. VE

      ... or you have to be impressive. And so that was... I'm a recovering awkward person. That was me for many years, trying desperately to ha- like, be perfect and be impressive and have funny stories, and it do- it doesn't work. In fact, vulnerability is one of the fastest ways to show likability, and there was actually a study that was done on this. It's by Richard Wiseman. So what he did is he had an actress go into the mall and do a smoothie demonstration. She was selling blenders. That was her fake, um, activity. And, um, she did a couple of demonstrations where she made the smoothie perfectly, with the strawberries and the bananas, and she blended it up, and she poured everyone smoothies. And they had everyone in the, in the, in the mall rate her on likability. Then they had a series of them where she spilled the smoothie.

    4. MR

      Ugh.

    5. VE

      Okay? She dripped it, spilled it, "Oh my gosh, so sorry about that. Just one little spill, like, didn't make a whole thing of it, but spilled it." Everyone in those studies rated her as more likable. What a gift to know that your mistakes make you more likable. The reason for this is because we know no one is perfect. We know this. And we also know that if someone is trying to impress us, they might be trying to cover something up.

    6. MR

      Hmm.

    7. VE

      And so I love the idea of, likable people are not prettier, they're not more impressive. Liking more people, yes, but also approaching them with your vulnerability. So being at a wedding, trying to make friend and saying to someone, "I'm starving."

    8. MR

      (laughs)

    9. VE

      Even a little vulnerability. When I'm trying to make friends when I'm uncomfortable at, like, a loud nightclub or a loud bar, I'm like, "My feet are killing me. Are yours?" Right? Like, I think that sharing some of our fears, some of our weaknesses, that is actually a way to make everyone feel like themselves.

    10. MR

      Hmm.

    11. VE

      And so being vulnerable, admitting mistakes, saying you're scared or uncomfortable, you know, I... For, for a decade of my life, I tried to hide that I'm a recovering awkward person. And the moment that I started sharing, "I am awkward. I feel awkward all the time. That's why I do this work," I felt like I could be myself and that all these people started to tell me they feel like awkward people too. And that's when I started having real connection.

    12. MR

      Vanessa, I am so glad that you hopped on a plane and came back, and I know that we are just getting started, and so I wanna take a quick pause so we can hear a word from our sponsors who bring this to you at zero cost. And while you're listening to sponsors, I'm gonna be sending this to my three kids. Sawyer, Kendall, and Oakley need to hear this. I know you have people in your life that need these tools and tactics, so be sure to send it to them too. And Vanessa and I will be waiting for you when we come back. Stay with us. Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins. I'm so glad you're listening to this episode today, because we have got the remarkable Vanessa Van Edwards. We are digging into the research around success and how you can use the habits of high achievers and influential people to level up in your own life. So, Vanessa, you can walk into a room and see who's influential, but can-

    13. VE

      (laughs)

    14. MR

      ... you teach us how to walk into a room and see somebody who's highly influential?

    15. VE

      Yes.

    16. MR

      Like, just distinguish?

    17. VE

      Yes. So the very first thing, and this is a... I've noticed this in a lot of rooms, from both professional rooms to social rooms to even, um, speed dating, is...Typically, when a person is cue- tuned into someone or aware of someone, we angle our body towards them. Now as adults, we get pretty good at hiding this, but our toes often give us away. So typically, when I walk into a room, I like to play a little game with myself. This is how I amuse myself. I try to guess who the boss is in the room based on where people's toes are pointing. Typically, we point our toes towards the most important person in the room. That is 'cause subconsciously our body is attuned to them, wanting to either talk to them, go towards them, or, uh, wants to read them. So whenever I'm in a room with like an influencer or celebrity, even if it's just a mingling, I can almost always tell that everyone is like, their eye is on that influencer or that celebrity or the boss, 'cause their toes are pointed towards them. The only exception to this is when people have to go, you will notice their toes will shift towards the exit.

    18. MR

      (laughs)

    19. VE

      It's if their brain are going, "What's my escape? When can I get out of here?" So one is always look at toe direction.

    20. MR

      Okay.

    21. VE

      It can also show you hidden crushes. Not always, but sometimes. Usually I can tell when someone has a little crushy-crush on someone else based on where their

  8. 24:47 – 26:13

    How your toes give you away when you’re in a group.

    1. VE

      toes... And- and that person will move, and that- and the person's toes who has a crush on them will usually (laughs) follow them. Which is kind of a funny thing. So, always pay attention to toes. That's the first way that we do it. The second thing is, typically, not always, highly influential people claim their space. So all of this cut ties together. When you are assertive, you are assertive verbally, you are assertive emotionally, you're also assertive physically. And this has been proven. So researchers from the- the University of British Columbia studied athletes. And they studied athletes acro- across genders and races, and they found that winning athletes, athletes who win a race, they take up a pride pose. This was, um, popularized by Amy Cuddy's Ti- TED Talk, which has had a- its own set of history. But they've actually proven that just the body language itself does... is repeatable. So winning athletes, they take up space, they lower their shoulders, they usually tilt their head towards the sky. And then there's two measurements that I think no one talks about that I wanna talk about, that everyone misses. Yes, we get it. If someone walks in a room like Rocky, you know, with their hands above their head, we get it, they feel good. But that's very socially aggressive. Like I'm not gonna advise people to walk into a room, "I'm here!"

    2. MR

      Yeah.

    3. VE

      Right? It's too much. What... The two measurements that actually matter the most for being impactful or spotting an impactful person are the distance between our ear lobes and our shoulder.

    4. MR

      Wait, what?

    5. VE

      I know.

    6. MR

      The distance between...

    7. VE

      Our earlobe-

  9. 26:13 – 34:23

    Do this when you walk into a room to appear more confident.

    1. VE

    2. MR

      Okay.

    3. VE

      ... and our shoulder.

    4. MR

      So right now, I think I probably have, what, I g- eight inches-

    5. VE

      Right.

    6. MR

      ... six inches, something like that?

    7. VE

      And- and so for you, that's max.

    8. MR

      Okay.

    9. VE

      Try to put your shoulders down as much as possible.

    10. MR

      Like down? Okay.

    11. VE

      Yeah, that's the most, right?

    12. MR

      No problem. I just wanna explain, 'cause you can see this on YouTube, but basically just imagine, uh, as you're listening that we are taking our ears... Try to touch your- your ears with your shoulders.

    13. VE

      Yeah, just- just-

    14. MR

      And shrink down-

    15. VE

      Yeah.

    16. MR

      ... into your body.

    17. VE

      Turtle-

    18. MR

      And that's what Vanessa's doing. Turtle-

    19. VE

      Yeah, turtle- turtle your head. Sh- put your shoulders up, try to touch your ears to your shoulders.

    20. MR

      Yeah, look l- l- like pretend you're a teenager who's staring at your phone.

    21. VE

      Yes. This is what happens. So w- as we do this, a couple things happen. One is we feel terrible.

    22. MR

      Yes.

    23. VE

      Do you feel terrible?

    24. MR

      I was like, "Mm,

    25. NA

      ..."

    26. VE

      Yes, it feels terrible. So it feels terrible. Also, our vocal power drops.

    27. MR

      Ah.

    28. VE

      So it's very, very hard to actually give a lot of vocal power.

    29. MR

      Yes.

    30. VE

      We... I go into vocal fry when I do this-

  10. 34:23 – 39:12

    Why your office chair should have arm rests and swivel.

    1. MR

      why else I pick a chair with an armrest? 'Cause I like to swivel-

    2. VE

      Oh, the swivel is so good.

    3. MR

      ... and rock and I like to cock an elbow on the back of the chair-

    4. VE

      That's so good.

    5. MR

      ... like this.

    6. VE

      This is so good, so confident.

    7. MR

      Yeah, I'm like super relaxed.

    8. VE

      You're a cowgirl, that's basically what that is, right? Like, yes, and so that is a confidence gesture, you're claiming space.

    9. MR

      Yeah.

    10. VE

      You have freedom of movement. The other reason why I love a swivel is because we should be fronting with whoever we're talking to.

    11. MR

      Oh.

    12. VE

      Right.

    13. MR

      So you- by that, if you're listening again you're seeing all this on the YouTube version of this episode but, if you are in a meeting and you're in a swivel chair we want you to turn your chair and face the person who's actually talking.

    14. VE

      Exact- it is a non-verbal sign of respect when you swivel your chair towards them. You're literally saying, "I'm gonna angle my entire body to get on the same page as you. Tell me. Tell me more, I'm aligned with you." And physically from a research perspective when we are aligned on the same parallel line as someone else we can see each others' body language better, we literally feel like we're on the same page, and so the swivel chair adds to that and then if you can add armrests that immediately broadens us and immediately gives us more perceived and feel- felt confidence.

    15. MR

      You know what's super great also for someone especially if you're listening and you're shy, you're introverted, you don't like the attention on you, these are non-verbal things you can do-

    16. VE

      Non-verbal.

    17. MR

      ... that based on the research-

    18. VE

      Yes.

    19. MR

      ... demonstrate that you're confident, that you're influential, that you are respectful-

    20. VE

      Yes.

    21. MR

      ... that you are powerful despite the fact that you're not saying anything.

    22. VE

      That's it.

    23. MR

      What am I doing with my hands?

    24. VE

      Okay. So they actually study this, they took video tapes of leaders speaking-

    25. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    26. VE

      ... and they had participants rate the leaders on their charisma, specifically their gestures, and they had all kinds of gestures in these videos. They found there was one single gesture (laughs) that people rated as the most charismatic and it is-I call it the power pose for the hands. It is a steeple.

    27. MR

      Okay.

    28. VE

      So, a steeple is when you touch the tops of your fingertips slightly together, and you keep a space between your palms. It is the most calm, broad gesture for your hands. You can do it with an armrest, you can do it on the table. Right now, just be careful, don't drum. That's evil drumming.

    29. MR

      Oh.

    30. VE

      That's very Mr. Burns. You know, a Simpson's reference.

  11. 39:12 – 42:21

    Here’s why you are more likely to believe gestures than words.

    1. MR

      you're listening? You're like-

    2. VE

      So everyone say, "I have three ideas," but hold up five.

    3. MR

      I have three ideas.

    4. VE

      I have three ideas. Horrible.

    5. MR

      Horrible.

    6. VE

      Why?

    7. MR

      I don't know.

    8. VE

      I know, I'm gonna tell you.

    9. MR

      (laughs)

    10. VE

      That was a rhetorical question. I'm gonna tell you. I'm gonna... I was asking why to myself. So here's why, is because it is very hard to lie with gesture. We are very used to lying with our words.

    11. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    12. VE

      And so it's very easy to say three, five, easy. It is very hard to lie with gestures. So if I were to say, "I have a really big idea," and I were to hold up my hands like this in a very small, like I'm holding a little dime or a penny, you would say, "Vanessa, it's small." So our brain subconsciously knows this. We are more likely to believe a gesture over a word.

    13. MR

      Interesting.

    14. VE

      That is why highly competent people are so good with their gestures, is they're basically signaling to you, "I believe in my content so much, I know my stuff so well that I can speak to you on two tracks."

    15. MR

      Mouth and hands.

    16. VE

      Yes. And so another kind of expert levels bottom is keep them visible. Keep your hands visible, out of pockets, above the desk, right? I like to greet hands first. Second is, can you be explanatory? Can you add a punctuation or an underline or a highlight? If you're gonna say you have a big idea, show me how big it is. Is it beach ball big?

    17. MR

      So for- for you listening, I really want you to get this. You might wanna check out the YouTube version so that you can watch this. But as she was saying big idea, she literally held her hands out to- to be demonstrative-

    18. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    19. MR

      ... with her hands. And it does communicate belief-

    20. VE

      Underlines.

    21. MR

      ... and it's like a... You're right, it's like taking a highlighter with your meat mitts-

    22. VE

      That's it.

    23. MR

      ... and just being like, "Here we go."

    24. VE

      (laughs) Yes.

    25. MR

      "I believe in this."

    26. VE

      And- and it's purposeful, right? So it's not just gestures for the sake of gestures where I'm just jazz handsing it.

    27. MR

      Yeah.

    28. VE

      It's like underlining purposefully. It's like giving someone an outline.

    29. MR

      That's so cool. So how do highly influential people communicate?

    30. VE

      Hmm. Okay, so highly invent- uh, influential people, they communicate with their non-verbal, their vocal, and their verbal. We talked a little about body language. Uh, last time we talked a lot about vocal, but we wanna keep our voice nice and low. We also want to make sure we're not using vocal fry. So vocal fry is when we're like this.

  12. 42:21 – 44:07

    How to stop using vocal fry or get someone else to stop doing it.

    1. VE

      them up into two different groups. The first group came into the lab, they were greeted by the researcher, and they were told, "Today, you are playing the community game." And they went to explain the rules of the game, and they played the game.The second group came into the same lab, the same researcher, and they were told, "Today, you are playing the Wall Street game." But the trick was the games were exactly the same. Everything was the same, except for that single word cue. So being told you were playing the community game, versus being told you were playing the Wall Street game.

    2. MR

      So Wall Street versus community?

    3. VE

      That's it.

    4. MR

      Okay.

    5. VE

      Everything else was exactly the same.

    6. MR

      Okay.

    7. VE

      Can you guess what happened?

    8. MR

      People that were in the Wall Street game immediately, like, turned it on, like, "I'm gonna win."

    9. VE

      Uh-huh.

    10. MR

      And people who were told, "We're gonna play the community game," they turned it on to be connected.

    11. VE

      Okay. So-

    12. MR

      Am I right?

    13. VE

      You're exactly right, but the outcome is a little bit, ugh, sadder than that.

    14. MR

      Oh, okay. Oh, no.

    15. VE

      But the outcome is sad. You're right. The Wall Street people wanted to win, which means they shared an average of one-third of their profits. In the community game, people shared an average of two-thirds of their profits.

    16. MR

      Wow.

    17. VE

      In other words, people who were primed, where they heard the word Wall Street, thought about sharing or being less communal. So they didn't want to share as much, they were primed by the idea of Wall Street.

    18. MR

      Wow.

    19. VE

      Whereas people who were told they were playing the community game actually acted more collaboratively. This is an incredible study because it shows that we can change someone's behavior with one single word. So when you think about your calendar invites, what kind of calendar invites are you sending? I don't know about you, but I usually get call, meeting...

    20. MR

      (laughs)

    21. VE

      ... one-on-one-

    22. MR

      Yup.

    23. VE

      ... conference-

    24. MR

      Yup.

    25. VE

      ... video call, Zoom. Those are sterile. They are not priming anyone for anything. You are actually telling someone,

  13. 44:07 – 49:11

    Use these words to set your team up for success.

    1. VE

      "Keep your brain on autopilot. This meeting will be exactly the same as all the others." What I want you to do is think about, how can you play the community game? What do you want someone to feel, think, and behave like, when they see that invite pop up in their inbox?

    2. MR

      What do you recommend?

    3. VE

      Okay. Collaborative session, 2024 wins, goal meeting, mastery meeting-

    4. MR

      Ooh.

    5. VE

      ... team session, team collaboration, creative hour. Right? Like, we can... They're not long, but we're using words that are actually setting people up to feel and behave in those ways. I don't know about you, I open my calendar multiple times a day. So if you send a, a calendar invite that is purposeful, that is actually setting up for success, you are priming them to feel and act that way every single time they open their calendar. That breaks autopilot.

    6. MR

      I love that. We are, we are implementing that. I-

    7. VE

      Yes.

    8. MR

      ... I'm, I'm yelling at everybody now-

    9. VE

      Yes.

    10. MR

      We're, we're implementing that.

    11. VE

      Yes. Yes. And no more emails that say "subject follow-up."

    12. MR

      Oh.

    13. VE

      Follow-up is the worst subject line-

    14. MR

      Yuck.

    15. VE

      ... in the history.

    16. MR

      Yuck.

    17. VE

      Worst one in history. Yes.

    18. MR

      Vanessa, I just love learning from you. And speaking of learning, I want you, if it's in reach, to grab a pen and a piece of paper while we take a short break to hear a word from our sponsors. Also make sure you share this episode with somebody that you love, because a little bit later in the episode, we are going to be playing a game that Vanessa says will change the way you think about productivity and focus forever. Stay with us. Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins. I'm so thrilled that you're here. You and I are learning so much about leveling up and the habits of people who are highly influential. That's you. And so, Vanessa, for someone though that is, again, nervous about saying the wrong thing-

    19. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    20. MR

      ... are there certain word, like words that people use that are highly influential, or are there things that they talk about with other people?

    21. VE

      Mm. Mm. So for people who are nervous about what they're saying, what I would say is, "You don't have to say more. You just have to be more purposeful with what you say." Like, that's a common misconception of people who are nervous or introverted is they- they don't wanna have to say more to ex- to ex- explain themselves.

    22. MR

      Mm.

    23. VE

      Actually, using very purposeful behavior cues in your language allows you to say less. Like, I can say, "Let's have our collaborative session tomorrow," and then invite you to that. You know exactly what that's (laughs) gonna be. Right? I don't need to write a whole agenda. I don't need to have to explain it. You immediately know. Like, I don't have to say, "So tomorrow, I would really like us to open up and talk and maybe share some i-" No. All you have to say is, "Let's do a collaborative session tomorrow." Or, that's highly warm, right? If you wanna be highly competent, "Let's do a brainstorm session tomorrow." Or, "Everyone, tomorrow we're doing a power through day. Tomorrow's a day we're gonna whip out those tasks, we are gonna do it together, we're gonna conquer some of those tasks, we're gonna be super efficient."

    24. MR

      I'm wearing sweats. Let's go.

    25. VE

      Right. Those words-

    26. MR

      Yes, I'm ready to run.

    27. VE

      ... that changes your perception of the day. It also changes how you would act in the day. There's another study that was fol- there's many studies that show the power of our words, especially behavior cues. But there's one other that I think demonstrates really the potential here. So what they did is they had participants come into their lab and they gave them a basic task, like an intelligence task. And they s- had two different versions of the task. One had a set of sterile formal directions.

    28. MR

      Okay.

    29. VE

      The kind of directions you always see. "Please fe- complete the following to the best of your ability." Mm.

    30. MR

      Mm-hmm.

  14. 49:11 – 51:08

    What to add to your calendar every day to keep you motivated.

    1. VE

      right?

    2. MR

      (laughs)

    3. VE

      (laughs) Or, uh, Vanessa Writing Block, right? That is so boring and that primes me to be like, "Ugh, a research block, a writing block." No. It's Vanessa Winning Morning. Get it done, Vanessa. Power up, Vanessa, right? All my alarms in my phone are, like, super motivational of the words that I literally wanna see. So one is, in your own calendar invites, in your own alarms, in your own self-talk, the more that you can use these cues for yourself, the better. That is my research-backed answer and it works. It does work.

    4. MR

      How can you talk to anyone-

    5. VE

      This.

    6. MR

      ... with ease and confidence?

    7. VE

      Ah, yes. Okay, first of all, transparency. So, like, I think the more that we can talk about our own behavior, the better.

    8. MR

      Okay.

    9. VE

      But I think that how we talk to anyone with ease and confidence is by breaking autopilot. Conversations become stilted, conversations become difficult when we're both of us are on autopilot. This sounds like this. "Hey, how's it going?" "Good. Busy good." Right? "Busy good. Oh, how about you?" "Yeah. Busy but good." "Mm-hmm." "How are the kids?" "Oh, good."

    10. MR

      That's a fake smile, Vanessa.

    11. VE

      Whether, right?

    12. MR

      I can tell.

    13. VE

      Mm-hmm. Right. So I think that well-meaning people, they ask what I would call safe questions or autopilot questions, and they get the same answers.

    14. MR

      Mm.

    15. VE

      And so the only way, I think, to talk to people with ease and confidence is to break autopilot. And it's uncomfortable.

    16. MR

      Is there a question or two that you like?

    17. VE

      Yes, yes. So, um, if you are willing, with me, anyone who's listening, to stretch a little bit, I think we have to break out of the how are you, what do you do, where are you from. In fact, I would like you to go on a diet with those questions. You are no longer going to ask those questions. You are immediately triggering autopilot with those questions. If I ask someone, "What do you do?" they've answered it a million times before. Instead, I want you to ask, "What's been good?"

    18. MR

      Oh.

    19. VE

      "What's good? What's good this week?" Or you asked me this in the interview, "Working on anything exciting recently?" So, "What's good?", "Working on anything exciting recently?"

  15. 51:08 – 56:53

    What are the best conversation starters?

    1. VE

      And specifically with, "What do you do?", that question is problematic for me 'cause I think that what you're really asking is, "What are you worth?"

    2. MR

      Hmm.

    3. VE

      You're trying to put someone in a box. And I get it, we wanna understand where people come from. It is much kinder to ask someone, "Working on anything exciting these days?"

    4. MR

      Well, it also means if you're, like, working on applications to go to school-

    5. VE

      Yes.

    6. MR

      ... or you're working on-

    7. VE

      Single mom.

    8. MR

      ... training for something or-

    9. VE

      Yes.

    10. MR

      ... I'm working on not losing it with my children or-

    11. VE

      Yes, exactly.

    12. MR

      Yes.

    13. VE

      You, that question gives someone permission to tell you what they are excited about. And that is a gift. So when you ask, "What do you do?" you're actually putting someone in a very specific box. So replace, "How are you?" with, "What's good?" Or, "What's been the highlight of your week?" "What's the highlight of your day?" Replace "What do you do?" with "Working on anything exciting?" Or "Have anything coming up that's exciting?" Or "Have any fun plans coming up?" They're subtle switches, but they make a huge difference because when you ask someone, "Working on anything exciting?" their brain has to search for excitement, excitement, excitement.

    14. MR

      Hmm.

    15. VE

      You just gave them a gift of optimism. You just asked their brain to think of good things, which is such a beautiful way to interact. As opposed to, I hear a lot, "Been busy?" Oh, no, no. Never ask busy, 'cause if you ask someone, "Been busy?"

    16. MR

      Oh, now I think about how busy I am.

    17. VE

      How busy you are.

    18. MR

      It's so true.

    19. VE

      It's so true.

    20. MR

      And then I literally talk about how busy I am.

    21. VE

      Yes. So-

    22. MR

      Instead of the thing that I'm excited about.

    23. VE

      Exactly. And actually triggers this negative loop of only talking about bad things. So one, never open on autopilot. Two, try to talk about things that are exciting. And three, if you can, you wanna level up the conversation.

    24. MR

      How?

    25. VE

      So this doesn't mean... I-I think a big mistake people make is they ask too deep questions too quickly.

    26. MR

      Hmm.

    27. VE

      So, like, I don't want it to be like, "What's your biggest dream in life?"

    28. MR

      (laughs)

    29. VE

      (laughs) Right? Like, an introvert is gonna run.

    30. MR

      Yes.

  16. 56:53 – 1:01:12

    How other people’s fear is contagious.

    1. VE

      wearing the sweatsuit. Then they had two samples of sweat, non-fear sweat and fear sweat.

    2. MR

      Okay.

    3. VE

      Right? They took these samples and they had unsuspecting participants smell (sniffs) (laughs) the samples. They had no idea what they were smelling, but they had them smell these sweaty armpits of these folks, and they put them in fMRI machines and they measured their brain patterns. They found that everyone who smelled the fear sweat, even though they had no idea what they were smelling, caught the fear.

    4. MR

      (gasps) .

    5. VE

      Their own fear centers lit up. What they think is happening is that we are attuned as humans, if someone else is feeling adrenaline and cortisol, that leaks out, and we catch other people's fear. So I think the kind of last channel of this is if you are secretly afraid-

    6. MR

      Mm. At work.

    7. VE

      ... I think that we leak that out in micro-cues, small non-verbal cues, chemical cues, and that is contagious. So, a lot of this is about getting yourself right first.

    8. MR

      Mm.

    9. VE

      Your day starting with, "What gives me energy? What socially gives me energy? What work gives me energy? How can I self-talk to myself to set myself up like a winner?" Because I know that if you don't, you become more negatively contagious.

    10. MR

      You have also incredible research about specific places you should stand.

    11. VE

      Yes.

    12. MR

      Where should I stand at a networking event?

    13. VE

      Okay. So, we did, um, at, at our speed networking events, we had kind of like a pre-session where we observed the foot patterns of people on this map. We had a map of the event, and we tracked where people were walking.

    14. MR

      Interesting.

    15. VE

      And we noticed patterns across the events. This was across multiple different events. Is that, there were really good places to stand, and there were really bad places to stand. There were social traps, and there were, like, social honeypots where you wanted to stand.

    16. MR

      Okay. Mm-hmm.

    17. VE

      Okay? This is the mistake that most people make in networking events. They stand right at the entrance, so they don't know a lot of people. So they get there and they're like, "I'm just gonna stand right by the door, 'cause I don't know anyone, and I'm gonna try to get someone as they come in." Mm-mm. This produced the shortest conversations. We literally watched as people had these really little awkward micro-conversations. Why? If someone comes into a room, they need to get themselves situated. They might have to go to the bathroom. They wanna get a drink. They wanna get something to eat. They also wanna scope the room themselves. If you pounce on someone, I call it the starting zone. So if you pounce someone in that start zone, anywhere near the door, anywhere near the check-in table, anyone, anywhere near the coats, you are gonna get someone when they are not ready for a high-quality connection. They're gonna be like, "Uh-huh. Autopilot. Autopilot. Uh-huh. I'm just gonna get something to drink." You are not gonna be able to make a connection in that start zone. So, do not stand.

    18. MR

      1000% correct.

    19. VE

      Right. Right. And that's a mistake that a lot of introverts will make. They stand there 'cause they don't know anyone and they're afraid to penetrate the room. No. It's actually triggering even more awkwardness. You're gonna have worse con... And then the introvert goes, "Why did I even come? I'm not even having good conversations." And you'll get that sort of deer in the headli- headlight look. If you watch people, I, I, uh, ha- I love to sit and observe people. If you watch people when they walk into a n-networking event, they're very wide-eyed. And that is because from a, an evolutionary standpoint, they're trying to take in the room. Who do they know? Where's the host? Where's the bathroom? Where do I put my coat? Is there food? Right? If someone is pounced on when they're doing that kind of wide-eyed survey of glances, they are literally, like, chemically not ready yet.

    20. MR

      Wow.

    21. VE

      Right? They're not settled enough.

    22. MR

      Where do I stand?

    23. VE

      Okay. So the best place, this is where the longest conversations happens and the most business cards were exchanged, was right as people exit the bar. Here's what would happen. People were nervous. They enter the start zone. Then they go, "I gotta get a drink. I gotta get a drink." Whether that's coffee or tea or whatever, people like to anchor themselves with something in their hand. It gives them something to do psychologically. So they wait in line, and they're kind of like waiting. They're thinking, "Oh, I'm here." And you'll literally physically see as people are waiting in the drink line, like, they're like...It's like they're here. Then they get their drink and they turn to the room, and you'll notice, that's when people are ready to connect. That 10 seconds of, "I've got my drink in hand, took my first sip, and I've turned to the room," they're like, "I'm ready, I'm ready, I'm ready."

  17. 1:01:12 – 1:04:53

    The worst place to stand in a room when you’re at a party.

    1. VE

      If you are standing right there, you're a social savior. 'Cause if you don't find someone to talk to in that couple seconds, you're like, "Oh, I don't know who to talk to." But if you're right there and you're like, "Hey, that looks great. What kinda wine did you get?" Or, "Oh, hey, what's good today? Seems like a fun event," you have just saved someone from having the awkward experience of not having anyone to talk to. So right as people exit the bar.

    2. MR

      Wow. Have you studied like social events and where would you advise somebody to stand if you're single or, you know-

    3. VE

      It's-

    4. MR

      ... you're going to an event alone?

    5. VE

      Yes. Um, if you're going to an event alone, I do highly recommend staying in that, that, exit the bar. The other place for a single person or if you're going to an event alone is in the eye line of the host or the most connected person. Here's why. If the host can see you, just, you don't have to be in the conversation though, but if they can see you and they're like, "Oh my gosh, Rachel, I've been d- desperate for you to meet my friend Jasmine. Come on over," you are easily able to be connected to. So I always try to be in line of the host if I don't know where I am going.

    6. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    7. VE

      You also can stand in the eye line of the most extroverted social person, because they love to make connections. That is their strength. That is their social strength. That is a gift to an extrovert.

    8. MR

      So do you know where you should stand at a wedding?

    9. VE

      Oh, I haven't-

    10. MR

      I do.

    11. VE

      ... studied it. Tell me. Ooh, yay, tell me.

    12. MR

      Uh, the door that the caterers are coming out of with the trays.

    13. VE

      (laughs)

    14. MR

      (laughs) That's always where you'll find Mel Robbins.

    15. VE

      (laughs)

    16. MR

      "Get over here with the lamb chop meatballs."

    17. VE

      Okay. By the way, it's so funny-

    18. MR

      (laughs)

    19. VE

      ... you say that. That is my favorite place to stand 'cause I'm always hangry. And what's funny is when I stand there, I say to the other people, "Caterer's coming out this door. What are you looking for?"

    20. MR

      Yeah, exact- "Come on over here. Come here."

    21. VE

      And like I will be a co-conspirator. I'll be like-

    22. MR

      Completely.

    23. VE

      ... "Oh, the potato soup grilled cheese? Got you. I got you. I saw one of those. I got you." You actually become friends with people who are hangry like you.

    24. MR

      Yes, exactly. So what is your favorite productivity exercise?

    25. VE

      Hmm.

    26. MR

      How do we increase our focus?

    27. VE

      Okay. So I have a very unique approach to productivity and I wanna play a little game.

    28. MR

      Let's do it.

    29. VE

      You ready to play a little game? Okay. So if you're listening, if you can take out a pen and paper, that would be great. If not, just use your memory. We'll, we'll play a little game together. So what I want you to do, I call this alphabet work. This is my favorite productivity exercise. It's my favorite team building exercise. It should com- it should, if you activate it, completely change the way that you work. So, at the top of your piece of paper, I want you to write A, B, C, and D with four columns.

    30. MR

      Okay.

  18. 1:04:53 – 1:14:41

    How to figure out what you’re really good at.

    1. VE

      that you're bad at. This is the hardest column.

    2. MR

      Why is this the hardest?

    3. VE

      But it's the most important one. It's because we have to dis- distinguish between tasks that we're exceptionally good at, that we hit flow at, and tasks that we're pretty good at. And smart people have a, have a lot of things on their B list, but not always a lot of things on their A list. Smart people can get away with doing B things for a long time. Same thing with your social energy. So what are some socializing things that you're, you like? You don't love it, you like it. It's okay. You don't feel drained from it, but you know, like, you can do it. Same with people, you enjoy spending time with them, but you would have to give a little bit of social energy to spend time with them. So your B people-

    4. MR

      Okay.

    5. VE

      ... spend some time doing that. C work.

    6. MR

      C.

    7. VE

      Okay. C work is work you are average at. You're not known for it. You're a little clunky with it.

    8. MR

      Yep.

    9. VE

      You c- Uh, C work is marked by, you're a little embarrassed.

    10. MR

      Oh.

    11. VE

      Like a little bit embarrassed by it.

    12. MR

      Okay.

    13. VE

      (laughs) Right? You're like, "Oh, like, uh, like, I'm not so great at that. I wouldn't want people to see it really well." So that's your C work, is you're average. D work should be the obvious one. D work is work you are bad at.

    14. MR

      Got it.

    15. VE

      D is work you are worse than most people at this task. You should not be doing it. You are slower than most people. You make more mistakes in this work. Your D people are also the people who take away your energy. They drain you. They're the people who push your boundaries, who challenge you in a bad way. They're people who you dread seeing. Hopefully that's not a long list. So where do you feel like, "I am surviving, not thriving"? Where do you feel like you just are not your best self? That's D. Okay. Here's why this is so important. Your day, your entire day, should be about optimizing your A work and giving away your B, C, and D work. Your entire day should also be...

    16. MR

      (laughs)

    17. VE

      I know. It's a little uncomfortable.

    18. MR

      Okay.

    19. VE

      Your entire day should be about figuring out the people you work with, what is their A work, and gifting their A work away. A mistake that people make on teams or when partnering up is, they partner with people who have the same strengths as them.

    20. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    21. VE

      You want to partner with people, you wanna hire people, you wanna work with, you wanna learn from people who have different work than you, where their B and C work could maybe turn into your A work. So your day should be about optimizing your A work.Learning to see, could I level up my B work? Could I learn something or use a tool to turn a B work into my A work? And how can I give away most of my C and D work? Okay.

    22. MR

      I mean, this is really cool. I- I am looking at my list, and as you're doing this and you're listening along-

    23. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    24. MR

      ... I'm just gonna try to recap so that I wanna make sure that you get this.

    25. VE

      Yes. And if you're willing to give examples, I think it would be very interesting to hear them.

    26. MR

      Okay. Um-

    27. VE

      I'm happy to give mine too, if that's helpful.

    28. MR

      Yeah, I think we should.

    29. VE

      Yeah.

    30. MR

      So do you wanna start with A?

Episode duration: 1:20:21

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