The Mel Robbins PodcastIf You Feel Lost, Stuck, or Behind in Life, Listen to This | #1 Purpose & Happiness Expert
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
55 min read · 11,402 words- 0:00 – 4:18
Meet the Guest
- MRMel Robbins
You wanna know one of the hardest things in life? It's figuring out your purpose. Why are you here? Today, you and I are talking all about how to find purpose and live a meaningful life, even when the world is overwhelming. How would you define purposelessness?
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Purposeful is, you know, you have a really sharp focus mentally. Purposelessness is really diffuse and vague. We feel a deep sense of purpose when we feel like the things we do are connected to things that are larger than the self.
- MRMel Robbins
Our guest today is Dr. Dacher Keltner. Dr. Keltner is one of the world's leading experts on the science of meaning and purpose. Do you have any guidance for us on how you can begin to find your calling?
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
I think this is gonna be one of the central challenges of the next 40 years. It begins with, like...
- MRMel Robbins
What is your definition of happiness?
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Happiness is if you feel like you're doing the things in the world that you're supposed to do.
- MRMel Robbins
If you're feeling a lack of purpose and meaning right now, what's the first step you can take?
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
It begins with asking yourself questions like, "What really inspired me as a child? What are your core strengths?" This isn't about your career. This isn't about what you do. This is where you come alive.
- MRMel Robbins
I'd love to dig into your incredible research around awe.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Awe is an emotion you feel when you encounter things that are most typically vast and you don't understand. There's nothing better for your mind and body than a minute of awe a day. Reduces depression, reduces anxiety, reduces the daily stresses, makes you feel more connected, less lonely, more purposeful.
- MRMel Robbins
I know the person who's listening wants that, so how do we do it? Before we jump into this remarkable episode, you're gonna love this, on how to create a good life filled with purpose and meaning, you deserve that. My team was showing me something. 57% of you who watch The Mel Robbins Podcast here on YouTube are not subscribers. It's my goal that we get that number to 50%. I know you're the kinda person that loves supporting people who support you, so if that subscribe button is lit up, it means you're not a subscriber. Could you please hit Subscribe? That's how you can show your support to your friend Mel Robbins, to the team here, to all these amazing experts that are showing up for you. It's free, and that way you don't miss a thing, and that way we also know that you love the guests that we're bringing you and the content that we're putting here in attempt to help you live a better life. All righty. Thank you, thank you, thank you for doing that. Holy cow, you're gonna love this episode about purpose, so let's jump in. Dr. Dacher Keltner, welcome to The Mel Robbins Podcast.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
It's good to be with you, Mel.
- MRMel Robbins
It is so good to be with you, and I'm really excited for our conversation because I'm very, very familiar with your work, and I use it, and it's exciting to be with you because your energy is extremely grounding. I'd love to have you speak to the person who's here with us, and just share a little bit about what your extraordinary research might change in their life if they were to take it and apply it, just day to day in the simplest ways.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah, I, I think that, um, the central message of today, uh, hard-won by science, we have such strength inside of us. We have such a sense of how to make the world better. We can find beauty around us. We have a sense of calling and a way to improve the lives of people, and we just need to feel that and to sense that in ourselves. This is free. It's in us. It just takes a little bit of inquiry, uh, and then we just have to put it into a practice a few minutes a day, and it will lead you in good directions.
- MRMel Robbins
I'm gonna feel better? Despite the state of the world-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
[laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
... after everything you're gonna...
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah, I mean, you know, this is a time of crisis for a lot of people. People, a lot of people are struggling. A lot of people are very tired. So grounding in that, you know, what we're gonna be talking about today is, how do we find purpose? How do you find a sense of calling, no matter what you're doing? Um, how do you find the simple beauties in people around you and awe? [laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
It's the perfect thing that we all need to be talking about and learning about right now, so I'm grateful that you're here.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Thank you.
- 4:18 – 11:07
How to Live a Good Life
- MRMel Robbins
You know, Dr. Keltner, you founded the Greater Good Science Center.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
You've been doing research for the last 25-plus years on what makes for a meaningful life, purpose, happiness. We're gonna talk a lot about the-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... research around awe. What are the most important things that you need in order to live a good life, based on the research?
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
I mean, the science of happiness just exploded, you know, the past 30, 40 years, and I got swept up into it as a young scientist, and we have learned a lot. You know, we've learned that money matters a little. You know? So your context matters. It's great to be in a democracy as opposed to an authoritarian culture, right? It's good to have a healthy body. Um, but what my field, psychological science, is really interested in is, what can we do in our minds? You know, what can we do right now? Um, what can we do with the people around us? And, you know, we know one thing that really matters is just little moments of joy and beauty and laughter and gratitude and awe and love, kindness. Just find those little moments, five minutes a week, where you're savoring a moment of beauty or thinking what you're grateful for. It's a, a time of hardship right now. There's no doubt about it. You know, I've been following data for 35, 40 years, and, like, stress is higher. Younger people are struggling. Uh, it's hard to know where are... we find meaning in life, the climate crisis, the political crisis, et cetera. So you gotta figure out a moment or two each day- Will you just pause and slow down and, and find some peace? You know, it might be the sunset, it might be piece of music, it might be how you journal, it might be listening to your show. Find a little peace in face of stress. And then, you know, I'm an introvert, and I always struggled with the, "Connect to everybody." I was like, "Ah," you know, I like solitude, you know? But alongside moments of joy and, and just finding peace is just find little moments where you're connected to people, you know? Um, I love this new literature on micro social interactions. Little bit of eye contact, saying hi to somebody, going to a farmer's market, just little moments where you're like, "I- I'm part of humanity." So, so that's what I teach students, little bit of joy, find a way to get calm, and then just connect a little, um, and you'll be on your way.
- MRMel Robbins
I'm just speaking on behalf of the person who is with us.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And maybe they're exhausted.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And as you just said, there's a lot of reasons to feel beaten up by life right now, a bit resigned-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... and sad about the state of the world-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... or the state of your family or your job or bank account.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
So if they heard you say, "Just find five minutes, little moment of joy or kindness or micro connection," and I can almost feel them rolling their eyes like, "Oh, for God's sakes, Dr. Keltner, seriously? Like five minutes a week is gonna s-..." What does it do? Like when you look at the research, 'cause I believe this-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... but you also have decades of research-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... about why these micro moments of peace-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... can actually help see you through very challenging periods in your life.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
We have worked with high schoolers in really under-resourced high schools, you know, where it's tough, and there's not a lot of hope, and they're looking at a different kind of job market. And if they feel a little bit of hope or find a little bit of awe, they, they enjoy their studies more.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
You know, we have worked with veterans who twice the rates of PTSD as the average civilian in the United States, and little moments of awe, right, reduce PTSD 32%. We work with healthcare providers, doctors and nurses during COVID, chaos, right? Uh, under-resourced, understaffed, and we just ask them, like, "Find one minute right now of what's wonderful or awesome about life." And they're in a hospital, fluorescent lights, people are dying, they're working 14 hours a day, and they're like, "You know, that woman who had a terminal diagnosis was so gracious and grateful to me and gave me a big hug, and that was remarkable human character," right?
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
So what this tells us is, uh, this stuff is deep in us. We've lost sight of it. Our culture is making it hard to get to, so we gotta take action and just find a couple minutes of it each day.
- MRMel Robbins
Why do you think it, it, like, buoys you up so much, particularly-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- 11:07 – 17:15
The True Definition of Purpose
- MRMel Robbins
... how would you define purposeless so that s- the person who's listening might be able to go, "Oh, that's what it is," or, "Oh, that's what my daughter's dealing with"?
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Purposeful is, you know, you have a really sharp focus mentally. Your mind is, "I know the 12 things I need to do to get this task done or to help my teenager, you know, think effectively about what to do next." So you have a sharp focus. Purposelessness is really diffuse and vague, right? And your mind feels, um, kind of unfocused, you know? And when you're feeling purposeful, you're, you're moving forward. You've got that dopamine energy. It's core to purposeful behavior. You're feeling empowered, and purposelessness is, you know, feeling sort of listless, and you don't have a lot of energy. We feel a deep sense of purpose when we feel like the things we do- ... are connected to things that are larger than the self.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
You know? I remember interviewing Yumi Kendall, who's this cellist, uh, for the Philadelphia Symphony, one of the great cellists and a friend of mine, and I was like, "Man, you know, I mean, being a musician's hard, you know? Make a lot of money, work all the time. It's super competitive." There was sexism in the field and so forth. And she said, "You know, every time I play my cello, as the notes go out, I feel connected to the audience, and I feel like I'm connected to the history of music."
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
You know? And that, and that's purpose, right? What I'm doing right now is connected to something larger than the self. And when you feel purposeless, you're, you're unaware of how you are part of a bigger story and, and we need that.
- MRMel Robbins
Dr. Keltner, I just wanna s- pause right there.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Okay.
- MRMel Robbins
Because here's what I found to be insanely helpful.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
[laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
Well, because you hear-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... the word purpose, and for decades of my life, I always thought that purpose was a thing outside of me.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And it was something to find.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And what I love about your distinction between this feeling of purposelessness versus waking up and living in a purposeful way is you just located all the power within us.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
A- and I've never heard anybody describe it that way.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
That purposeful is a way you can move through your day.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yep.
- MRMel Robbins
And purposelessness is a way that you can move through not only your day and your weeks and your months and your years.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
But it's very helpful to think about it that way because it somehow demystifies that there's some magical thing that is going to change all of this that's outside of me that I somehow have to find-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yep
- MRMel Robbins
... versus actually I could access being more purposeful today, and that might change things. Am I, am I-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... tracking correctly?
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah, and it's so important, and you're, you're getting it exactly right. And it's, you know, for any age person, right?
- 17:15 – 26:39
The Ultimate Strategy to Find Your True Calling
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
really matter.
- MRMel Robbins
You also mentioned calling.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Do you have any guidance for us on how you can begin to find your calling?
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
I think this is gonna be one of the central challenges of the next 40 years. It begins with, like, having people think about what their core strengths are.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Think about what you, you really care about. Think about the communities you wanna be with. You wanna think about who you wanna serve, right-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
... as calling. And once, you know, Amy Wisniewski at Yale has this famous example of one of the people who's literally cleaning out bedpans in a hospital said, "This is such vital work because I keep the place clean," and he knew he was serving people. So you start asking those questions, I think things will clarify.
- MRMel Robbins
Could you speak directly to the person who's listening who is really struggling with trying to figure out their path in this really-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... confusing moment in time?
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
This is, in some sense, the biggest question in life. It's like, what will my philosophy of life be? What will... How will I find meaning? Um, I think you have to think about your core concerns, what you really care about in life, you know, and, and really think about the ways they present opportunities in your daily living. It might be, um... It might be that you really love taking care of nature. And then build that into, as much you can, your, your off hours, your work, and so forth. People have moved out of the church and are finding spirit and a sense of higher purpose in yoga, meditation. 40% of Americans find it in nature. So you wanna be thinking about, what is my soul? You know, what is, uh, a higher source, if you will, or me- a source of meaning? I love the work on what's called the social biome.
- MRMel Robbins
What is that, social biome?
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
It... Social biome is just like, we know connection matters, but it's, can be exhausting and hard and, ah, you know, you gotta like... [laughs] Getting all these texts and, you know, what do I do? And it just, it just offers some simple ways to, like, say hi to some strangers and strike up a conversation, and make sure you got one good friend you can talk to, you know? And, and that, that's about all you need. And so think about what your ideal social environment is. So, so, uh, you know, this is a challenge of our times, is to, in this time of crisis, to, like, figure out how to find meaning again.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, it ties back to all of your research and your guidance telling us that you need to... Or the opportunity-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... is to develop a mindset and an attitude about your own life where you're more purposeful.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And it's very clear-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yep
- MRMel Robbins
... based on what you just shared and based on all this research, that it begins with an inquiry.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
It does. You think about, you know, 60, 70 years ago, 90% of Americans went to church. And you go, or synagogue or whatever your-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
... your practice is, and you would go in, and that's inquiry. You know, how do we think about these big questions about life and existence, life and death, and what's divinity, et cetera? And, and we have, in some sense, lost that. And, and it really needs to be reintroduced. And I tell the thousands of students I teach each year, like, this is the central question in life, your philosophy of life. There are a lot of tools out there. I can't package something to you and give it to you. You gotta discover it. And, um, and then there are some great forms of guidance to follow to get there.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, it's magical that you're sitting here, because as we were driving over this morning, my sister-in-law, Christine, who's also our chief operating officer, um, we were just kinda chatting about what we were doing this weekend, because I live in Vermont, she lives outside of Chicago, and she was saying, "You know, I, I went to church, and I just love going to church." And she said, "I love going because it just gives me a chance to step out of the busyness of life and to sit quietly and to contemplate bigger themes, and to be reminded that there is something much larger in life than the things that are going on in my life." She said, "You know, it makes me very sad that so many people have left places of worship, for good reason, you know, a lot of people leave, and don't have the ritual-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... of being in contemplation and being in community, and really reflecting on larger themes about life that remind you that it's not about you."
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
"That there's something bigger going on that connects us all." And I know we're gonna get into the research around this, but you do keep bringing up church.
- 26:39 – 29:05
The Science of Happiness
- MRMel Robbins
What is your definition of happiness?
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Happiness is if you feel like you're doing the things in the world that you're supposed to do, that give you a sense of purpose, give you the goosebumps as you're approaching the day. If you see it in other people and they're doing it with you, you're, you tear up. Like, that's why I'm here.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
And that's what I would say. And within the scientific literature on happiness, we call that meaning. You know, right now, I think we're in an era of meaning, that you've been pushing me on, Mel. Like, hey, put aside this, you know, pleasure and ease and stuff. What, how do we really handle the exhaustion and purposelessness of our times? And it really is finding meaning.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
And that's when you feel like, "I'm doing what I'm here on Earth to do."
- MRMel Robbins
I wanna make sure as you're listening, you're picking up on this, in what Dr. Keltner is teaching us. You have not attached career, job, and money to the thing that is your calling-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... or your meaning.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah. Yeah, and you just gave me goosebumps. Thank you for saying that. Goosebumps are a source of awe and a recognition of what's important in an idea, a big idea that you just floated. Yeah, you know, we're, there is no doubt, you know, it's harder to pay bills for young people. They're looking at affordability issues, new kinds of salary structure. We know AI now is gonna hurt younger jobs, right? Which is not a surprise. So it's stressful, um, no doubt. But, you know, I think we're gonna be in this era, and- and the upside to AI is it could enable this, which is to find your calling, your purpose, what you care about, and express it out there. And I think we're gonna move out of this era of perfectionism that's... You may have seen it around you, [laughs] you know? And man, it's tough. And like, allow young people, if they wanna, you know, be a struggling actress, that's a good thing. You know? Um, that's where their purpose is. If they wanna, you know, if they wanna be a carpenter, like my dad was, um, that's a wonderful career, right? We wanna encourage, uh, all of the- the kinds of work and not just the, uh, perfectionistic type work. So yeah, I think, um... And then to really broaden out and think about what- what's your service, what's your form of creativity.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Um, and- and see if we can cultivate
- 29:05 – 33:39
The First Step to Finding Purpose
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
that.
- MRMel Robbins
If you're feeling a lack of purpose and meaning right now, what's the first step you can take?
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
It begins with asking yourself questions like, what really inspired me as a child, you know? Uh, and for me, it was, like, encountering dinosaurs when I was five. I was like, "I love evolution [laughs] and dinosaurs." What inspired you as a child? Who inspired you in your life, you know? And you think about those people. And, you know, Mel, what those questions get to is what's inside of you, what are your core strengths, right? And we know from this really interesting, uh, inspiring science, uh, and practice of virtue that's age old is, you know, there are six or seven core strengths that we can be thinking about. Each of us is different, and they speak to us in different ways. So, you know, it might be knowledge, right? You might love crossword puzzles and, you know, studying things and learning about music or birding or the like. It might be courage. You know, you might just find great- Inspiration and sort of a sense of purpose and doing courageous things and, and getting out and taking chances. Uh, kindness is just a universal, like, you know, tending to people, volunteering who need help. There are a lot of people today, you know, who could use... You're 90 years old, and you could use that drive to the supermarket. Um, there are the justice people, and they're around us, you know? And man, they will find their purpose if they get a chance to, you know, to fight for what they think is fair. Um, there's a, a kind of strength that's more transcendent, like meditation and spirituality and just finding the questions about divinity or whatever form it takes. And I... One of my favorites is the creativity types, [laughs] you know, and they love humor and stand-up comedy, and they're gonna do spoken word or, you know, write their short story or join the book club or whatever. And, and there it's just, like, creating. And, and you know what I love about these ideas is these, these aren- this isn't about your career or how you make money. This is just what you're gonna enjoy on the weekend and what you should prioritize in your life to find a little bit more purpose during these times.
- MRMel Robbins
What I love about those core strengths that you just listed off, and you said knowledge-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... courage, kindness, justice, transcendence, which to me felt like just seeking-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah, yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... deeper connection-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... and creativity is, as you were talking, Dr. Keltner, and I'm glad you said this isn't like what you do for a job, I almost thought to myself, you know, if this is your core strength, it doesn't mean you're good at it. What it means is you come alive. You cannot help but feel like yourself when you are either doing something that's creative, or you get lost in some sort of poem you're reading, or you are arguing with people because fairness is just something-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
[laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
... that just, you just get... Like, it's almost like-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... this is so core to who you are that you are the only one that can block yourself from this.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Is that, is that a, is that a fair thing to say?
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah. And you just gave me goosebumps because what you said is so important, you know? This isn't about your career. This isn't about what you do. This isn't about how you label yourself. This is where you come alive. This may not even be the thing you do most of the time, but it, it gives you so much meaning. And I have... You, your wonderful description made me think about my own life personally. You know, I was raised by... My mom taught literature. My dad was a visual artist. Um, and I was no good at the arts, [laughs] you know? And I couldn't write fiction to save my life, and even though I wanted to. But I will tell you, Mel, like, being in a museum-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
... seeing plays, reading fiction, hearing fiction, I am most alive in the arts, creativity, right, and beauty. And yet it's not how I make my living. It's not what I'm necessarily great at. But wow, do I come alive, for reasons I can't describe to you. And just knowing that, it's like if I want a sense of purpose, I go see a movie. You know, if I want a sense of purpose, I will go to a play, right, and just take it in. It'll give me all this insight about life, as art does, uh, because that's something core to me that is what really matters.
- 33:39 – 36:59
Ask These 2 Questions to Find Purpose
- MRMel Robbins
You also, uh, Dr. Keltner, talked about two questions. You were talking about-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... you know, whether thinking about childhood or-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... any moment in your life where you're inspired.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And then the second question was, who are the people-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... or the people in history that have inspired you? As you answer those questions for yourself and you think about your core values, what do you then do with those insights? Because it gives you data about what makes you come alive, but how do I then apply it-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yep
- MRMel Robbins
... in my life right now?
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah. And you know, this is merging a couple of really rich literatures, Mel. You know, the narrative psychology of, like, we are stories. We're almost like books.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
We... Dacher is a novel in some sense. So there are these early inspirations and people who move me, and those forms of inspiration point to, like, this is what I care about, you know? And I remember when I was on a panel with the Dalai Lama in 2003, and he said, "You know, kindness is a basic state of human nature." And I was blown away. I was like, wow, that's so rich as an idea as a scientist, and it's also rich as an idea how to live life. It's like it's so basic. We- that's all we have to do, practice kindness. His quote, "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you wanna be happy, practice compassion." That insight coming out of someone who inspires me, um, taught me a lot. And then you start to take this, these insights through this inquiry, to use your word, and like, okay, I have a free weekend. What should I do? Well, maybe I'd like to volunteer inside a prison-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
... which I did. I- maybe I should volunteer in the parks and help with tracking what, what bird species are. Maybe I should volunteer in a school. So from the inquiry, and once you get a sense of like, I care about justice, you know, well, these are the people... This is the book I'll read. I'll read To Kill a Mockingbird, you know, and then I'll have this conversation with people. So they're just guides. They're good compasses to friendships and to volunteer work, to what we wanna pursue, what we wanna enjoy as a film. So they're good ways to go about the life.
- MRMel Robbins
And I wanna make sure as you were listening to Dr. Keltner, you heard the genius of the instruction He didn't say, "Quit your job-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... and pursue something else." He didn't say you need to have some 17 step morning routine. He said, once you ask yourself [laughs] these questions, "When have I been inspired? Who inspires me? What is my core value here?" He's instructing us to insert something that feels like that this weekend-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... into your life.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And that's how you start to remind yourself of who you are. That's how you start to reconnect with the parts of yourself that you have forgotten or that have been buried under the to-dos and the busyness and the headlines. It's by remembering what made you come alive and remembering what matters, and then finding small ways where you are right now to do something.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
It's so important, and you make it sound so simple.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
[laughs]
- 36:59 – 39:26
The Emotion That Gives Your Life Purpose
- MRMel Robbins
Dr. Keltner, I'd love to dig into your incredible research around awe. What is awe?
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And why did you decide you were gonna study it and write a blockbuster bestseller about it?
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Uh, we've been talking about brief moments of really important meaning and purpose, and awe is an emotion you feel when you encounter things that are most typically vast and you don't understand. You know? So you see a lightning storm, or you hear... You're at the U2 concert, and it's incomprehensible how music could be so powerful. Or you are witnessing somebody who is giving away all their resources to a stranger, right? And you're, you're, you're awestruck, vast and mysterious. As an emotion, it moves into our body, and we tear up, and we get goosebumps, and our, our heart feels warm, right? It changes our neurophysiology. And then awe, um, really is, as Jane Goodall said, when you're amazed at things outside of yourself, and you, you wanna give to it, you wanna promote it, you wanna create community. Um, it really brings out the better angels of our nature. And you know, when, as I s- I got interested in awe, I was raised by [laughs] I was raised in a, kind of a wild context of the late '60s and by an artist and a literature professor in Laurel Canyon, you know, crazy times. Uh, very awe-inspiring times. And, um, I was lucky enough to develop scientific tools to study it. And then-
- MRMel Robbins
How do you study awe?
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Like, what do you do?
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
We... You have people listen to music. We take people outside, and they look at big trees. We have people think about someone who inspires them, right, i- in a really life-altering way. We've studied people in national parks. We've studied people at the Great Wall in China. We've had them look at big views. We... You know, there are other scientists who've gone to mosh pits at concerts, you know? So it's actually a pretty easy m- emotion to study. We've done research in art museums, you know, and you can, uh, get people to feel awe if they slow down and look at a painting in a really powerful way. And then you measure it. You ask people how you feel. You measure the brain. You measure the goosebumps. You measure, uh, activation of the vagus nerve. Uh, turns out, even though people think you couldn't study it, it's, it's actually pretty tractable or easy to study
- 39:26 – 43:42
What Happens To Your Brain When You Feel Awe?
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
in the lab.
- MRMel Robbins
I'd love to have you walk me through-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Okay
- MRMel Robbins
... what is happening in my brain and body-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... when I have a moment of awe. And I'm thinking about this because I'm taking a bucket list trip three days from now, going rafting through the Grand Canyon, something I've always wanted to do.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Ah, awesome.
- MRMel Robbins
This is, like, three years in the planning, and I know every time we come around a bend, I'm gonna be like, " [gasps] ."
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
[laughs] You just did part of it, so... [laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
And so-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... what happens? I even feel awe, like I'm that crazy person in our family that around dusk I'm like, "Shh."
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
[laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
"Can you hear the barred owl? Can you hear the barred owl?"
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
[laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
'Cause they're now, you know, doing their, "Who cooks for you? Who cooks for you?"
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Awe. [laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
Like, they're calling right now to each other.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Mm.
- MRMel Robbins
And so what is happening in you in a moment of awe?
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah. Um, what wonderful descriptions. So when you, um, encounter things that are way beyond your frame of reference-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
... like the river and the Grand Canyon or a symphony of birdsong, uh, that you hear-
- MRMel Robbins
Or sunset on the ocean
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
... sunsets, the colors and the changing colors and time.
- MRMel Robbins
Incredible.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Suddenly it's like, "Wow, this is different, how I ordinarily perceive reality. It's beyond my frame of reference, and I can't classify it." And then what happens is, um, a part of your brain called the default mode network quiets down. It deactivates. And the default mode network, or DMN, is where the ego and the self-relevant processes take place. My checklists and my to-do lists and my goals and ambitions, that quiets down, and that's very much akin to when people are out at nature, at the U2 concert or wherever. They feel like their ego is no longer hassling them. They feel like, "I'm free of my ego." So the, that part of your brain deactivates. Then these regions of your nervous system, the vagus nerve, this big bundle of nerves wandering through your chest, calms your heart rate, opens your chest, makes you feel connected to other people. That's activated. A little bit of evidence showing oxytocin is released, this kinda like we're all one [laughs] being, you know. Uh, your immune system is functioning better, and then very importantly, you get quiet. Your mind opens and expands. You see how you- As Mel or Dacher, our listener out there, are part of larger things, right? And suddenly when you're feeling awe, you're like, "Wow, I'm, I'm part of everybody who's listening to this podcast," or, "I'm part of these people quietly meditating," or, "I'm part of an ecosystem. I'm listening to birdcall and birdsong, and it sounds like human song and music. Wow, I'm part of this big thing," right? And then, uh, you, you have this sense of deep meaning and purpose, and that's so central to our conversation. Like, you know, when I have awe out backpacking, which, you know, which I do every summer, it's just with my daughter Natalie and friends, and it's just so reliable and it's like, you know, I am this small species and a member of a big species, but we're just part of this ecosystem. You know, I'm part of, um, the trees and the rivers and the fish I see in the rivers and the changing light of the day. I'm just part of... This is life, right? I'm part of life. Uh, Darwin called it endless forms most beautiful, is what life is, and that's transcendent, right? As... That's when you're like, "All these individual concerns I have, the stresses, the exhaustion I feel, uh, fade away," and you find something to devote yourself to.
- MRMel Robbins
I think you just explained why I am an absolute sucker for a documentary about wildlife.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
[laughs] Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
I watch all the Earth series-
- 43:42 – 45:35
The 1-Minute Habit For a Healthier Brain and Body
- MRMel Robbins
What, what have you found in the research, uh, Dr. Keltner, in terms of how making it a habit-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... to inte- purposefully have moments of daily awe-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... how does that improve your health?
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah, you know, Mel, as I was doing this work in big lab, like lots of people working on this, we're heading into the mental health crises, the loneliness epidemic Vivek Murthy had, had called our attention to, you know, and, and, and I faced a lot of skeptics, like, "Wait a minute, if depression's rising out of COVID, you think awe is the answer?" And we actually found, like, if you practice a minute of awe a day, you feel less depressed, right? Um, and so what we've found makes me feel bullish, and when I'm in front of 1,000 doctors wh- and giving a talk, which I do routinely to MDs and nurses and healthcare providers, other healthcare providers, I say there's nothing better for your mind and body than a minute of awe a day. And what we know is a minute of awe a day reduces depression, reduces anxiety, reduces the daily stresses, makes you feel less exhausted and more energetic, makes you feel more connected, less lonely, more purposeful, is good for your heart, is good for your immune system, you know, reduces inflammation in the body. That's a, a few minutes of awe a day. You step outside and you look at the sunset, and you pause and you watch the colors change, and your body starts to feel, as Emerson said, like, there's nothing nature cannot repair.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Um, so yeah, it's, you know, it's a battle cry in some sense for me, which is that we have data showing you don't... Money gets in the way of awe. You don't need any money to find this, right?
- 45:35 – 47:39
How to Practice Awe in 60 Seconds
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Um, we, you know, uh, what we need to do is just look around us, think about an opportunity for awe and go get it.
- MRMel Robbins
Dr. Keltner, can you walk us through how you do one minute of awe? Because after you gave that long list-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... I want that.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And I know the person who's listening wants that, so how do we do it?
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
After we started to document these health benefits of awe, we started to test it, like, can this benefit people, uh, in systematic ways? And we've got good evidence for that. And what I tell people is really simple, which is pause, put away your devices, right, open your mind, take a deep breath. And then, you know, Mel, in our research from around the world, we found these eight wonders, right, uh, that really help us put awe into practice. So find it in nature, right? So go outside and look at the sky. [laughs] I do this with my undergrads. They're like, "Oh my God, look at the clouds," you know? So take a minute to look at the sky. Moral beauty, think of somebody who inspires you, right, and just feel that in your body. Uh, think about collective movement. Do you... Is that what you're doing in your yoga studio or at a s- the Red Sox game or at a concert? Um, think about a, a, a visual opportunity for awe. Some people love paintings or visual patterns. Think about music. You know, I... Music's one of my favorite. You know, Mel, we, we forget how powerful it is, how, how much it can give us to us. [laughs] So find a piece of music that gives you some tears and just listen to it for a minute. And then a couple of the other wonders are, you know, think about ideas you care about, you know. And really provocatively, uh, is the life cycle. Just think about this cycle of life. We only have a, a little time here on Earth, right? It's just a fundamental truth. The people we love have this sort of sense of cycle and, and just reflect on what that means to you.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- 47:39 – 58:21
Feel Less Stressed Instantly (Visualization)
- MRMel Robbins
So I want you to help me and the person who's listening or watching on YouTube to experience awe right now.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Oh. [laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
And my team, uh, has this extraordinary bouquet of flowers.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And it has been sitting next to me- This entire time kind of under the table, and so I'm gonna grab it and put it on the table in front of me, and then I'm gonna have you walk me and the person who's with us through an experience of how we can feel awe.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Wonderful. Oh, those are beautiful.
- MRMel Robbins
These are stunners.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
To my right is a gorgeous bouquet of flowers in this cool glass jar, and imagine-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Mm
- MRMel Robbins
... jewel tones. Like, it's an explosion of spring, and if you love flowers like I do, we have a tree peony and an anemone and garden roses and snapdragons and, uh, lanthas and queen anne's lace and some greens, and it's like a very English garden style bouquet.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
They're incredible. Yeah. You ready?
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
You gonna be a subject in an experiment?
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
[laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
Let's do it.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
All right. For the listeners out there, um, I'd really encourage you to either at this moment, you know, orient to the sky or if you're outside, orient to some trees or, you know, when you have a chance, to pick a place in nature that really speaks to you. The important point is either take a moment to just take in some of the sensory experiences of nature-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
... whatever it may be. Could be flowers, it could be trees around you, a forest, the sound of rain, et cetera. There's all research on this. If you are inside an office where there's no nature, pause for a moment and think of a place in nature that really means a lot to you, right? It could be a campsite that your family goes to or-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
... a place you like to backpack or a garden that you-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
... may be growing things in. Most of us have that thing, right? So we're gonna do that, and Mel, what I'm gonna have you do-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
... is I'm gonna have you kind of slow down and focus on this bouquet, and we're gonna walk through the senses, and then I'm gonna ask you some awe-related questions. So what I w- I'd like you to do, and this is good for any awe practice, is just to let your gaze move through the flowers and zero, zero in on the really fine details of flowers and then move out and look at the broader patterns of the flowers.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Go from small to vast. And let your powerful eyes see all the miracles of the flowers' patterns. I want you to let your gaze move around the bouquet and just look at the different colors and the hues of the different colors. What comes to mind when you look at the shapes of the flowers, smallness and the vastness, and then the colors? Where does your mind go?
- MRMel Robbins
Well, the first thing is just how shocking it is-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
[laughs]
- 58:21 – 1:01:40
The Way To Walk That Makes You Live Longer
- MRMel Robbins
Dr. Keltner, what is an awe walk?
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Humans are a walking species. It's, you know, we walk on our two legs, our two feet. Chimpanzees don't. We have meandered to all the continents in the, on the Earth. Uh, we are a itinerant species. It's just part of what we do, and walking is great. There are all these great traditions of walking. There are often, in spiritual traditions, forms of pilgrimages, where you walk and you... And most people who are probably listening to this have a walking, uh, tradition, and that's good news. It's very good for your body and your mind. And so what we decided to do, Mel, and this was with Virginia Sturm, is we added a little awe to your regular walk.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
And it was exactly like what you did with the flowers. We, we asked people, "Take a walk once a week, and in our control condition, go out and enjoy your walk. In our awe walk condition, look around to the small and the vast, the little bark on the tree and the full bark patterns on the tree, the cloud, the patterns of clouds, the raindrop, the full storm. Go from vast to small, and go to places that are filled with childlike wonder," right? Which we've been talking about. Like, whoa, the swing sets my daughters used to swing on, et cetera. And just do that. And what we found... And that's, you can do that anywhere. Go on your walk, slow it down, just look around you and look for small things, you know, vast things, uh, and then go to places where you might feel a little curiosity and wonder. And what we found is, in that study, it made elderly people who are 75 years old or older feel less pain in their bodies. And more recently, we have a paper under review showing greater brain health. ... six years later, which is amazing. And what's interesting, Mel, you know, I love how your mind went on a journey with the flowers, which you're like suddenly you got a bigger picture of your relationship to flowers. My husband Chris and the flower beds, and my clipping them each night, and the voles, and my grandmother, and my parents. Suddenly you had a, a map on where to go, and that's what the awe walk did as well. Once you start doing it, you start practicing awe walks wherever you go. I do awe walks in the airport. You know, I'll be like, "Okay, I'm really tense. I have flight anxiety. Let's look at the moments of goodness here." And it, it can work.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, I have a little twist on this.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Okay. [laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
Which is, uh, 'cause every time I walk, I'm doing an awe walk.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
[laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
Because the thing I'm purposeful about-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... is I play a game to see if I can just see a naturally occurring heart shape-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Aw
- MRMel Robbins
... in the vast clouds or-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... in a oil stain in the concrete or a leaf. And then when I see it, 'cause I now always see them everywhere-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
That's awesome
- MRMel Robbins
... I just take a moment and really kind of savor that that was put there for me.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Aw. That is nice.
- MRMel Robbins
And it's killer.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
[laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
And so now our family group chat is full of heart-shaped random objects that people see on walks, but-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Aw
- MRMel Robbins
... uh, it's, it's a way that I've applied your research-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Aw
- MRMel Robbins
... uh, and added a little twist to it.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
That's a wonderful
- 1:01:40 – 1:06:17
The One Habit For A Meaningful Life
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
twist.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, Dr. Keltner, I see this quote floating around that the amount of good in your life depends on your ability to see it.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah, I, I love, uh, Thich Nhat Hanh, this Buddhist practitioner, who said, you know, "So much of our life is oriented towards fear." And of course, you know, there's a lot to be fearful of, you know? There's climate crises, and economic issues, and war, and, and of course, but that's part of the story. That is always part of the story. And if you just pause and open your mind, you have the chance to see the miracles of life, in his words, of you can smell the flowers, you can hear, you know, young children laughing, you can see the light in somebody's eyes. Just a little instant, right? So that is always true, and for skeptics out there, this is a hard time, you know? But time and time again, people who are facing the hardest times, right? I learned this from prisoners inside prison. You talk to veterans, like, the toughest times in combat, it's like they return to these fundamental truths, that there's also beauty, and there's also awe. And I think we just have to just take the time, like this podcast and conversation with you, Mel, like, let's remind ourselves of these beauties, 'cause they are powerful and they're, they're there to guide us.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, Dr. Keltner, if you had to distill everything that you shared with us today to the most important thing for the person listening to do as soon as the episode is finished-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... what do you think that is?
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
I hope your audience appreciates, like, um, you know, I was genetically wired to feel a lot of anxiety. Uh, panic is everywhere in my mom's side of the family. Um, you know, uh, losing my brother, uh, really deep grief. And, uh, and I had to find my way through answering the question you asked. And for me, you know, Eleanor Roosevelt, uh, every night when she went to bed, she had this prayer where she said, um, "I wanna see the simple beauties all around me and be aware of the hidden loveliness of people that they ordinarily hide." And for me, that, that, those two words, simple beauties, um, and I believe that. I believe that anywhere there are beauties, in the people around you, in the natural world, in the music you hear, in the things that bring us awe, you know, the eight wonders that we've talked about. And so to me, this is one of the, our great strengths as a species, is to be able to notice the beauty in the glass of water, or a conversation, or the eyes of somebody, or memories of the past, right? And we always have that capacity, no matter where we are. Doesn't cost a dime. You don't have to move a step, and the simple beauties are there to access. And I think that's why Eleanor Roosevelt said it, uh, and it's, it's meant a lot to me.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, Dr. Keltner, you mean a lot to me.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Aw. [laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
And I know you mean a lot to the person who's listening, and your research and your work, uh, is a treasure for all of us. So thank you for what you do. Thank you for hopping on a plane, even though you're anxious about flying-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
[laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
... and flying across country-
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
I've got my tricks. [laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
... to share all of this research and wisdom with us, and I am forever a fan and grateful.
- DKDr. Dacher Keltner
Mm. Thank you, Mel. I've had many goosebumps during our conversation, for good reason. It's been wonderful.
- MRMel Robbins
Me too. And I also wanna thank you. Thank you for taking the time to listen to something that will not only help you find awe and beauty in your day-to-day life. I truly believe that if you apply everything that Dr. Keltner taught you today, it will help you find your calling and a deeper sense of meaning in this one incredibly amazing life that you get to live. All righty, in case nobody else tells you today, as your friend, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And creating a life that has a deeper sense of meaning and being more purposeful is clearly the secret to doing that. So go do it. All righty, I'll see you in the very next episode. I'll welcome you in the moment you hit play. All righty, thank you for watching all the way to the end on YouTube. And if you're wondering, "Mel, what should I watch next?" You're gonna love this episode. Check it out.
Episode duration: 1:06:21
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Transcript of episode -Lg2T5F-1nc
