Outsmart a Narcissist: A Proven 4-Step Plan to Take Your Power Back | Mel Robbins Podcast

1. 0:00 – 2:27

   Intro

   1. MRMel Robbins0:00

      I thought I knew what a narcissist was, but I didn't.

   2. RZRebecca Zung0:03

      (instrumental music plays) A narcissist is not what you think. A narcissist is not a person who thinks so highly of themself. They will take themselves down to take the other person down. You actually become physiologically addicted to this person. Everything is black and white, everything's good or bad. You're either for them or against them, and if you're against them, then you are public enemy number one.

   3. MRMel Robbins0:29

      What are the phases of a narcissistic relationship?

   4. RZRebecca Zung0:33

      They call it love bombing, "Let's get married in Vegas. Let's move in together. Get me on your bank accounts." Now, y- they've gotten you, and their stories aren't holding up. Now, you start to see lies. Now, you start to see manipulation. I suddenly found myself in this situation, feeling like I'm going crazy. Honestly, it, it almost took me to my knees. It was in that moment I decided, "I, that's it, I'm getting out of this thing." You and you alone define your value. You can win. (clock ticking)

   5. MRMel Robbins1:10

      Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to The Mel Robbins Podcast. I wanna start off by just thanking you so much for being here with me today, and to just acknowledge you, because I know when you tune in and you spend time with your friend Mel Robbins, you are investing time in yourself and improving your life, and I just think that is so cool. And today in particular, (laughs) I am thrilled that you showed up, because you and I are going to have a powerful and a life-changing conversation. And I can promise you that because we're gonna be talking about a topic that is the single most requested topic that I get from listeners in 194 countries. What is the topic? I'm so glad you asked. Here it is. It's narcissism, but specifically, how do I deal with narcissistic people that are in your life and not lose my power? See, here's the thing about narcissism. There is so much amazing information out there about the dangers of narcissistic people and why you need to end relationships with narcissists, but ending a relationship with somebody, it's not always that realistic, right? So, that's not what we're gonna talk about

2. 2:27 – 7:02

   Why “cutting off” a narcissist won’t work.

   1. MRMel Robbins2:27

      today, because sometimes, in fact oftentimes, the narcissist is somebody that you're close to. The narcissistic person is your mom or your dad, or maybe it's one of your kids, or your brother, or your sister. And despite what the experts recommend, you don't want them outta your life, and kinda playing the defense and pretending that you don't care, it's getting exhausting, or maybe you just can't end the relationship right now. Like, for example, the narcissistic person, it's your boss and you need the paycheck, but you don't know how to deal with them, or maybe it's your ex and you guys have kids together, and so you're gonna see this person over and over, year after year after year at family gatherings. Or, maybe the narcissistic person is your daughter-in-law or your son-in-law, and if you cut them off, you're not gonna see your son or your grandchildren. So today, you and I are gonna learn strategies and tools for dealing with the narcissism that you encounter every single day. And this is something that I'm dealing with, and so I have a hunch that you're dealing with it too with somebody that you care about. And so, I have a very simple mission today. My mission is to empower you with knowledge and to equip you with tools and strategies, things that are proven that you can use to get on the offense instead of feeling like you're on the defense all the time, because there is something you can do, and that's why I cannot wait to introduce you to the expert. I've tracked this expert down, and she is here to teach you how to understand, deal with, negotiate against, and even get what you want from the narcissistic people in your life. Your mom, your dad, your daughter-in-law, your ex, your boss, they're gonna have no idea what hit them when you're done listening to this. So, the expert today is Rebecca Zung, and Rebecca literally wrote the book on this topic. The book is called Slay the Bully: How to Negotiate with a Narcissist and Win. And here's what I really love about her take on this topic. She's a trial lawyer. I'm a former trial lawyer. I love people who think like lawyers. And on this topic of narcissism, she's not taking a clinical approach. She's attacking this topic like a litigator. She's advocating for you. And you know what? She's showing up to win. She is one of the top-ranked trial lawyers in the United States, and Rebecca became an expert in this topic because she needed to get a strategy. See, she's been researching narcissism for decades. Why? So, she could understand the narcissism that she was seeing in opponents and outsmart them in the courtroom. She wanted to know how they thought, how they think, their psychological disposition, and that's how she became an expert in this topic. And she's here to teach you how a narcissistic person thinks, acts, how to identify their emotional cycles and reactions, and also, and this is the really good part, their tactics so that you can rise above it, so that you don't get sucked into it. And if you pay attention and you apply what you learn, 'cause this is not just a listening podcast, it's a learning one, you will also master Rebecca's four-part proven strategy for negotiating with narcissistic people in your life. And if you do that, you're gonna win every single day. All those little battles, you're gonna win 'em. There is so much to cover, so get your pen out, clear your schedule for the next hour, because court is in session, and on the docket today...Everything you need to know to deal with and win with the narcissistic people in your life. So please, without further ado, help me welcome Rebecca Zung to the Mel Robbins podcast.

   2. RZRebecca Zung6:13

      Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

   3. MRMel Robbins6:17

      I'm so excited to talk to you. I know that we're all gonna learn a lot, and I wanna jump right in. My mission in speaking to you today is to give somebody who is listening to your story and to all of the tools, and strategies, and insights that you are about to share about identifying a narcissist in your life, and learning how to negotiate with them, and keep your sanity and your power intact. What I want to understand is, after 20 years of litigating high net worth divorces and battling with narcissists day in and day out, can you explain how you now think

3. 7:02 – 9:11

   What is a narcissist? (It’s not what you think.)

   1. MRMel Robbins7:02

      about narcissism based on your experience for decades, your personal experience, and all of this extensive research that you've now done on narcissism? How do you think about the definition of a narcissist?

   2. RZRebecca Zung7:15

      So, a narcissist is not what you think. A narcissist is not a person who thinks so highly of themself. It is a person who absolutely has no feeling of value internally about themselves, no feeling of value, so they have to get all of their feeling of value from external sources, which is image, m- mostly things related to image, which is the prestigious friends, the big houses, the money, the big cars, all of that, degrading people, devaluing people, manipulating people, and pushing people down in order to make themselves feel better. But it's an endless amount that they need, because they can never get enough. It's, it's, you know, completely scarcity-based, it's fear-based, it's all of that. So, a- and, you know, you're left feeling totally and completely empty, and that, yet they're still starving 'cause they can never get enough.

   3. MRMel Robbins8:20

      Rebecca, just listening to you, I just exhaled. Having dealt with narcissists in my life, I mean, it's exhausting. You do feel alone. You feel empty. Because if you've ever had that experience where you're like, "Am I going crazy?" Like, "Why is this person always making me feel like I'm the problem?" And then they still want more, no matter what you do.

   4. RZRebecca Zung8:42

      Mm-hmm.

   5. MRMel Robbins8:42

      We're gonna get into how narcissism is formed. This is fascinating stuff that you need to know. You are absolutely gonna learn all of the things that Rebecca's gonna teach you, the words that you should say that diffuse a narcissist, her four-step plan that will help you get what you want, even if you're dealing with a narcissist in your life. But before we go there, could you just tell the person listening what's available to them? 'Cause I think you get so beaten down when you're dealing with narcissism

4. 9:11 – 12:52

   You need to stand up to the narcissist in your life.

   1. MRMel Robbins9:11

      in your life that you do believe you're the problem. You do believe that something's wrong with you. And if you're listening to my words, and you're feeling used, and exhausted, or scared, Rebecca, I want you to explain to the person listening, what could their life look like? Where could their life be if they take the time to learn the tools and the strategies that you're about to teach them, so that you can keep your sanity intact, you can stand up to the narcissist in your life when it's important to do so, and so that you don't get so sucked in to the way that they go about life? 'Cause I think that's part of the problem is that their strategies work, which is why we get so turned around.

   2. RZRebecca Zung10:01

      I want to start with you standing in your authentic power. And I- I- I love the concept of The Wizard of Oz, and I wa- I love, I want to start with that, because I just-

   3. MRMel Robbins10:13

      Great.

   4. RZRebecca Zung10:13

      ... think it's so beautiful, which is that The Wizard is really the narcissist in a way, which is this big head. He p- pretends like he's something that he's not, and he's actually this feeble little man who's afraid, right? And that's really what a narcissist is. And to me, you're like Dorothy, who's trying to find yourself. You're trying to figure out who you actually are. And what you're really trying to get to is Glinda, who knows who she is the whole time. And to me, she's sort of like your soul. There's a very subtle part of the movie, which is where Glinda is talking to the gang, and the Wicked Witch comes around, and she flies near Glinda. I don't know if you remember where she says to the Wicked Witch, "Go away. You have no power here." Do you remember that?

   5. MRMel Robbins11:17

      Yes.

   6. RZRebecca Zung11:18

      That's where you're going. That's where you're going. That's that authentic power. When you can stand in your authentic power, to me, it's aligned with source. When you are aligned with source, you know who you are, and you are in your purpose. What people need to know is like, once you know who you truly are, you know, you, you stand in your authentic power, and then that's the narcissist is like, "Go away. You have no power here."

   7. MRMel Robbins11:49

      Ooh, I love that. Don't you love that? That idea that you could stand in your power and be like, "Go away. Go away little narcissists." And that's exactly what's happened to me."I have somebody who is very narcissistic in my life. I am not getting them out of my life, but everything you're about to learn has helped me stand in my power so they have no power over me." And that's exactly what you're gonna get out of this conversation today. So, that's incredible. Thank you for taking the time to explain that, Rebecca. And now that we know where we're going and what's available to you to be able to stand in your full power and be like, "Bye-bye, narcissist," I want to start with this. So Rebecca, you spent 20 years as one of the top-ranked lawyers literally battling, negotiating, litigating with narcissists. You have written three books on the subject. You have studied this so that you can win, and you have identified that there are three different types of narcissists. And for you listening, this is a really important place for us to start because

5. 12:52 – 17:39

   The 3 types of narcissism look like this.

   1. MRMel Robbins12:52

      awareness is critical to changing anything for the better. And when you know that there are three different types, it's much easier to spot, and then you know what? You're gonna be able to stand in your power and use the strategies and not get hooked into this. So, Rebecca, let's talk about the three s- types of narcissists that you've been researching.

   2. RZRebecca Zung13:09

      Well, the three most common ones that you hear about are the covert, grandiose, and malignant. And there's other types of narcissists, and there's even a healthy narcissism as well, but... So, I want to make sure that I'm clear on that. You know, it's not that those are the only types. Well, let me, let me start with the grandiose, which is the type that we, I, I just sort of described, which is the one that everybody normally thinks of as a narcissist. It's the one that's sort of in your face, the one that's, uh, you know, bragging about themselves, the one that is more impulsive. The grandiose is the one that everybody thinks of as a narcissist. I kind of think of it as your garden variety narcissist. And to me, they're the easiest ones to spot. So, the covert narcissist is the one that, to me, in some ways is the stealthiest, in some ways is the more dangerous, because they're the ones that are, you know, passive-aggressive. They'll... Y- you know, they're your humanitarians. They're the oftentimes clergy, oftentimes doctors, lawyers. You know, everybody thinks they're so nice. Everybody thinks they're so wonderful. Many times, they, they present themselves as victims. "Oh, my gosh, y- you know, life isn't fair," and so everybody rushes to take care of them. Or, you know, they're the ones who agree to do things in your face. "Oh, yes, of course I'll do that," but then they don't, or, you know, they take credit for your work. It's like this underlying rage. There's just like... Right underneath the surface, there's this rage and jealousy that only you sort of see, but everybody else thinks that they're so nice and so wonderful. But you are just constantly subjected to this, this underlying sort of thing, and y- you can't really quite put your finger on it, but y- you just know that there's always sort of this something, these little comments, these little jabs. "Oh, what's the name of your book again? I can't... I can never quite remember." Or, you know, like, things like that. Uh, "Oh, I'm so happy for you. Oh, that's so nice," you know? But there's... W- when you go to tell somebody about it, it's not quite enough to, for people to go, "Oh, okay." You know, most people think, "Oh, I'm sure that was inadvertent. Oh, well, she's so nice. I'm... I can't imagine that they really meant that," you know? I mean... But y- you just know that taken together as a whole collectively, it's just... Y- you, you feel like you're going crazy.

   3. MRMel Robbins15:56

      Can you give us an example? Give us an example, 'cause you actually dealt with one, 'cause I'm sitting here trying to rack my brain. Okay.

   4. RZRebecca Zung16:02

      Yes.

   5. MRMel Robbins16:02

      Do I know a covert, passive-aggressive narcissist? What am I looking for?

   6. RZRebecca Zung16:06

      Yes, absolutely. So, they will start seeding their smearing, for example, in a divorce, maybe six months prior. So, here's a way that they'll do that. They might start to say, "I am so concerned about Johnny and his drinking. I'm just so concerned about him." So, they couch their concern in, you know... They're smearing in terms of concern.

   7. MRMel Robbins16:39

      Hmm.

   8. RZRebecca Zung16:39

      "Just so worried. Hmm. I'm so worried about him. Hmm." You know, like that, to a neighbor or to a friend. "I'm just so concerned." And, and, and so they'll, they start this down, you know, early, early on, and then by the time the divorce actually happens, then, you know, "Hmm, Johnny has a full-blown drinking problem. Hmm. Well, you know, I've been talking to you about this for months. Well, y- you know, you'll, you'll testify for me against h- him f- y- you know, in the divorce for custody now, won't you? I mean, I've been telling you for months he's got a drinking problem." Now, he probably has no problem with drinking whatsoever.

   9. MRMel Robbins17:28

      (laughs)

   10. RZRebecca Zung17:28

       But, you know, they've been laying this foundation about, you know, concern and care, y- and, and they do it in such a way

6. 17:39 – 21:07

   This is the scariest type of narcissist.

   1. RZRebecca Zung17:39

      that is so plausible and so... Uh, it... They, they seem like they're such a good person.

   2. MRMel Robbins17:46

      Yep.

   3. RZRebecca Zung17:46

      There are, like, little things, like, um, a email chain that, you know, you get left off of, and all of a sudden, you're not in a meeting that you were... that you should have been on. And, uh, you know, there they are o- on a important meeting for work, and, you know, clients are like, "Oh, how come you weren't on that meeting?" And y- you're like, "Well, I didn't get the..." "Oh, I thought... I really thought you were on... I, I...""I don't know how I missed you being on that email chain."

   4. MRMel Robbins18:19

      Hmm.

   5. RZRebecca Zung18:20

      "I really thought you were on that. (laughs) Sorry." Taking credit for your, your work, seeing people on particular interviews and using your own quotes, um, you know, that very clearly are yours, and, y- you know, that sort of thing.

   6. MRMel Robbins18:42

      Let's go to the third one. So you said there's the grand- grandiose, the covert passive-aggressive narcissist. What was the third?

   7. RZRebecca Zung18:48

      Malignant is, malignant narcissists tend to just be s- you know, they're the ones that have no problem just completely ruining your life. This is the one that will honestly just accuse you of being a child molester if you, y- and you've never touched a child whatsoever. This is the one that will stalk you, wh- uh, they will threaten you, they, violence, uh, you know. A- and, and by the way, there can be combinations of the types of narcissists as well.

   8. MRMel Robbins19:24

      That's kinda scary. (laughs) But let's keep going. And here's where I want our conversation to go next. One thing that changed my life forever when it comes to narcissism is understanding the origin of narcissism in somebody, because we throw the word around, and you may believe that somebody just chooses to be a narcissist. That's not what happens, and Rebecca, you decided to dig into the psychology, and what I love about how you've researched this topic is you thought about it like a lawyer, and lawyers dig into the cases. They dig into the evidence. They dig into the precedent, and you wanted to learn about the psychology of narcissism and where it begins and how it affects somebody's ability to think, how it affects their emotions, because that's critical to you being a badass in the courtroom. And so you dug into the topic of the psychology of a narcissist with the lens of, "I gotta know how to win, so I gotta understand how somebody comes to be like this and how this impacts their emotions and their logic and their thinking," and what you discovered and how you explain it, I think is really cool. So let's go there now. When you were researching the psychology of origin, like how someone becomes narcissistic, and obviously this is a spectrum, what did you discover?

   9. RZRebecca Zung20:49

      Yeah, so what I found out, and I found this to be really, really fascinating, is that it's a result of trauma, and what happens with the brain when we are exposed

7. 21:07 – 32:17

   What happens in a narcissist brain in childhood that flips a switch?

   1. RZRebecca Zung21:07

      to trauma, we have a stress response. What happens to all of us is when we are in stress, it activates our sympathetic nervous system, so we go into fight or flight when that happens, and it, our brains release hormones, mostly adren- uh, adrenaline and cortisol when that happens. So as children when that happens, and it happens on a regular basis or a continuous basis, it can actually cause arrested development in the limbic system part of a, a child's brain, in the part of the brain that is responsible for emotions, for, for, um, i- the emotional regulation f- uh, for a child. And so what happens is, as they grow, while the prefrontal cortex part of their brain can continue to develop, there can actually develop a, a lag between the prefrontal cortex, which is the, the reasoning part of the brain, the judgment part of the brain and the emotional center part of the brain, which is the limbic system part of the brain.

   2. MRMel Robbins22:32

      This is why I wanted to have you on the Mel Robbins podcast, and maybe it's 'cause I'm a lawyer, and so I love how you research, but I wanna take a highlighter, and I wanna highlight this right now for you listening, because if you've never heard that narcissism is not something someone's born with, it is created in childhood. It is the result of repeated trauma, and what Rebecca is explaining to you, and this piece of it is critical, that the trauma during childhood, emotional neglect, physical abuse, whatever the trauma may be, it causes arrested development in the part of the brain that is responsible for someone's emotions.

   3. RZRebecca Zung23:21

      Yes.

   4. MRMel Robbins23:22

      And what does that mean?

   5. RZRebecca Zung23:23

      Yes.

   6. MRMel Robbins23:23

      That means that while their prefrontal cortex or their thinking part of the brain is like fully functioning, their emotional part of the brain is lagging. That's why somebody who has a narcissistic personality has so little emotional control, and when you start to understand, oh, wait a minute, the, the, the thinking part of the brain goes forward, but the emotional one literally stops. If you've ever dealt with somebody who's narcissistic, I bet they spin on a dime. I bet all of a sudden they can rage at you. I bet all of a sudden they're like irrational. And when I started to realize in my own brain, oh, wait a minute, this is something that a narcissistic person has no control over, this is why they're so unpredictable. This is why they're immature. This is why they can say such mean things and be like, "I never said that."It has to do with the delay in the emotional development while the thinking part of the brain is proceeding, and this is really important for you to understand because this is not your fault.

   7. RZRebecca Zung24:32

      Yes.

   8. MRMel Robbins24:33

      There is nothing you can do to change this, and getting yourself all wrapped around the axle because you got somebody in your life that tantrums at you like some eight-year-old, this is part of how the brain developed because of the, you heard the word again, arrested development in the limbic system. And this was critical for Rebecca to learn so that she could navigate the courtroom, so that she could be a savvy negotiator, so that she could get into the courtroom or into the deposition and win, 'cause she knows she's dealing with somebody who's super sharp in the mind but ridiculously immature in the emotions. And this is so life-changing for you to wrap your brain around, because this has nothing to do with you. And later, I promise you, Rebecca Zung is gonna teach you her four-step proven approach to negotiating with somebody that has narcissism and still winning. She's also gonna give you the phrases that she likes to say that really disarms somebody with this kind of arrested development. And when we come back from a short word from our sponsors, you better be here, because I'm gonna be here with Rebecca, and you know what we're talking about? We're talking about this phenomenon called blindness that happens when you have narcissism, and this is also part of how a person's brain develops during early childhood, and I can't wait for you to hear this. So stay with us. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. I am so thrilled that you're still here because we are with Rebecca Zung. She is one of the world's highest-ranked attorneys. World's, the US. Okay, I'm just so excited (laughs) I'm now starting to inflate her credentials. But the bottom line is, she's a badass, and she's here teaching you and I about narcissism, and what she's learned as a lawyer, and in research and writing three different books on the topic about understanding how nice- narcissism is developed as a result of childhood trauma. And I want to recap what you've already learned because this is going to empower you. So, you've already learned that narcissists are not born, they are made, and they are the result of childhood trauma. And I'm going to repeat this part because this is a game-changer when you understand this. Due to childhood trauma, somebody with narcissistic tendencies or full-blown narcissism, what happens is, the thinking part of the brain, the prefrontal cortex, it keeps on going and developing, but the limbic system, the emotional controls, has this arrested development, which is why when you're dealing with somebody that has narcissistic tendencies, they can seem super irrational or emotionally immature, or, like, crazy selfish, like a six-year-old who doesn't want to share their toys and then erupts in something, and then you're like, "What is going on?" And then somehow, you feel like you're the problem. And so, Rebecca, I want to continue right in this thread, and I wanna, I wanna flip the script a little bit. Let's, as you're listening, I want you to think about somebody in your life that you're dealing with that either has narcissistic tendencies or is a full-blown narcissist. Maybe it's your mom or dad, maybe it's your ex, maybe it's a friend, maybe it's a boss, maybe it's a kid, somebody in your life that really fits the description that you're starting to fully grasp. Good. You got that person? Great. Now I want you to take that person, let's just say it's your dad, and let's shrink your dad down and imagine he's just a little kid who is experiencing a traumatic situation in their house, whether it's emotional abuse, it's physical abuse, it's abandonment, it's loneliness, it's like, whatever it may be. That that is their reality. And so what, can you explain what's going on for that little eight-year-old kid that's exposed to this, Rebecca, and how narcissism develops?

   9. RZRebecca Zung28:37

      So, for children who are dealing with this continuously in hou- households where there's a lot of stress, where there's a lot of trauma, and they're exposed to this on a continuous basis, while the prefrontal cortex part of the brain continues to develop, the, the part of the brain responsible for judgment or other, you know, thinking, planning, that conti- continued to develop, and so during the rest of their lives as adults, they appear to be functioning normally. There's actually a disconnect between the development between that part of the brain and the limbic system part of their brains. And so, while they are, you know, functioning normally in one part of their lives, and now something might happen, some sort of trigger, some sort of stimuli has caused them to feel like they need to be back into survival mode, and that stimuli can be anything, and most times, it's not necessarily rational or reasonable to most people, but it is to them. And it can be anything. It can be non-verbal or it could be verbal. It can be a non-verbal cue, such as an eye roll......stance, or it could be a tone of voice. I always say narcissists hear tones like dogs hear whistles, but, you know, there's no tone, but they hear tone. So, you know, it could be anything, b- but they get triggered. That thing triggers them. And because of their, th- the phenomenon called splitting that they have, where everything is black or white, or good or bad or whatever, when that trigger happens, now they go from that prefrontal cortex back into the limbic system. That limbic system becomes activated, and now you're dealing with that limbic system, or they are dealing with that limbic system. And that emotionally charged state is what is taking over now at that point, and that is n- now they're, that front part of their brain is no longer in charge anymore. It's, their limbic system is now in charge. And w- when that happens, they don't necessarily remember or know what they're doing. They're, that's what's n- now happening. And that, when that happens, i- it's, it's what's narcissistic injury, is what it's called, and they will then take themselves down, sometimes, to take you down. It, it, the retaliation might happen. They, they inflict harm. They manipulate. They, th- they have little recollection of their actions at that point, and they are seemingly blind or indifferent to the collateral damage that they cause

8. 32:17 – 35:33

   This is what “narcissistic blindness” is.

   1. RZRebecca Zung32:17

      to themselves or others during that state. They are literally blinded by their actions.

   2. MRMel Robbins32:29

      We have to stop on this point right here, because what Rebecca is explaining to you when she talks about blindness, and this being tied to the brain development, this changed my fricking life. And I wanna take a highlighter, and I want it to change your life, because when you have somebody that is narcissistic in your life, and they say, "I never said that. That never happened. You're wrong. I didn't mean that," I always felt like they were lying to me, that there was this intent to destroy, right? And when I dug into the research, just like Rebecca dug into the research, and I learned that there is this term, blindness, that due to the arrested development in the limbic system, which means they have little to no emotional control, right, that the emotional eruption, when they get that wave of emotion, it does override the thinking center, and they completely forget what they did. And so, I will say, are there narcissists that do it intentionally? Probably. But it was super helpful for me to realize that there are things that have gone down in our family, for example, in the past, where somebody with a narcissistic personality or narcissistic tendencies erupted and said some really cruel things. There were tears. There was a fight. There was upset. And it has always bothered me that the person has operated as if it never happened. And what I've come to realize is that, based on the research, if it is a heightened emotional state, they might not even remember that it happened. And if we track back to the example that I gave you, remember when I asked you to just imagine, let's just say it's your dad who's narcissistic, and imagine him as an eight-year-old freaking out, right, and having a complete temper tantrum. Do they remember the mechanics of the temper tantrum? Usually they don't. And so you kind of know this based on your experience, but being able to tell yourself, oh, they say this 'cause they actually don't remember saying it. Yeah, they may be a, a sociopath dickhead too, but there's also this kind of, again, spectrum, where because somebody is so emotionally immature, and they get so triggered so fast, and then they erupt with emotion, and then they forget that they actually said it. And, and, and one of the things that I love about this is, you know, we have had a number of the world's most renowned experts on this show, and one of my favorite things

9. 35:33 – 40:47

   Narcissists aren’t born; they are made. Here’s the research.

   1. MRMel Robbins35:33

      that I have ever learned about narcissism, I have learned from Dr. Ramani Diversla, who, by the way, is coming up for a two-part series, 'cause she has a new book out about healing after you've been sucked into a narcissistic relationship. But one of the things that I learned from her, and this is, this is why I keep repeating this stuff, that narcissists are not born. They're made, and they're made during childhood. And what I loved about that is that it allowed me to kind of feel sorry for a narcissist. And that may sound like a weird thing to say, but when you feel sorry for somebody, you get your power back, because they don't seem so big and scary anymore. When I look at an adult who is narcissistic, you know what I feel? I'm like, "Wow, you must have experienced a lot of trauma as a kid. I feel pretty bad for you." And that ability to feel empathy, or sadness, or feel bad for somebody-... it gives me my power and makes me not susceptible to their BS. You know what I'm saying? And so, knowing that narcissists are not born that way, they're made. Tap into a little empathy. And now you know, because there is this arrested development, you are dealing with somebody who is not mature, emotionally. And you are dealing with somebody who will tantrum as an adult, and you are also dealing with somebody who will likely deny that they did that because they're blind in those moments where they get wildly emotional. And, you know, Rebecca, why this is so important is that one of the most important things, and we're going to get into Rebecca's four-part strategy that she uses when she needs to negotiate, or navigate, or diffuse, or win against a narcissist. You're going to learn the phrases that diffuse somebody who has a narcissistic tendency or approach. But what I love about this is you're getting the why this works. You're getting the understanding. You're getting the facts and the science and the research so that you know this isn't about you. And I think that it's really empowering for me to know that every time this particular person in my life that I love who is so easily triggered, who so easily rages, who so easily, like at the drop of a hat, boom, the mood changes, who's always about them, who's got crazy-ass expectations, and the second that the expectations aren't met, they're pouting like a fricking six-year-old, when I can look at that and go, "Oh. This is childhood trauma. This is somebody who is not emotionally mature and probably never will be because the development of their limbic system got arrested due to childhood trauma and that's why they don't think rationally, and that's why they can't control their emotions, and that's why this has nothing to do with me."

   2. RZRebecca Zung38:47

      That's exactly correct. That's exactly correct. And even beyond that, what people need to understand is when that is happening and because that is happening, dealing with that in any situation means that you cannot communicate with them. You cannot negotiate with them in the same way that you can with a rational, reasonable person. You cannot.

   3. MRMel Robbins39:18

      Well, Rebecca, I love that you said that 'cause we're both parents. And so just to make this as so simplistic that anybody of any age anywhere in the 194 countries where this show is syndicated can understand it, just like you cannot negotiate something with a eight-year-old the same way that you would negotiate with a fully functioning adult, you need to put someone who's got narcissistic tendencies into the camp of negotiating with an eight-year-old. Because you're not dealing with a fully functioning, rational human being with fully developed emotional centers in the brain and the ability to regulate themselves or even understand what they're doing. Is, is that correct?

   4. RZRebecca Zung40:09

      Y- yes. And I would even say an eight-year-old who's having a tantrum.

   5. MRMel Robbins40:14

      (laughs) Okay. (laughs) I love that. How did knowing that help you?

   6. RZRebecca Zung40:20

      Oh, I... (exhales) So much so. So much so, because y- you, o- once you learn this, then you, first of all, you can stop taking it personally. Second of all, you can, once you learn that you can stand in your own power and they, y- they're actually way more afraid of you than you are of them, s- I mean-

   7. MRMel Robbins40:46

      Are they?

   8. RZRebecca Zung40:46

      ... i-

   9. MRMel Robbins40:46

      Are they afraid?

10. 40:47 – 43:39

    Do narcissists feel fear?

    1. MRMel Robbins40:47

       Do they feel fear? Like I, I, I s- you know, you start to feel like this person's such a cold piece of shit that you wonder, do they even feel fear? Do they not?

    2. RZRebecca Zung40:55

       I mean, they're afraid that you're going to leave them. They're afraid of abandonment. They're afraid you're going to expose them. They're afraid... They're very fear-based individuals. I mean, they're, they don't, th- they're afraid you're gonna figure out that it's all a big ruse w- wa- you know, that n- none of what they're doing is, you know, that, that you actually have more value than they do. The next step is knowing that once you stand in your authentic power, they, they can't touch you because they, they prey upon people who don't have that.

    3. MRMel Robbins41:27

       Mm-hmm.

    4. RZRebecca Zung41:27

       They prey upon people who have leaky boundaries. They upon- prey upon people who are, uh, w- th- you know, they're going to be able to get, suck that supply from because that's what i- it is that they need.

    5. MRMel Robbins41:39

       You use that term leaky boundaries. What are leaky boundaries? Give us an example of what a leaky boundary would look like.

    6. RZRebecca Zung41:46

       Leaky boundaries is when instead of stopping somebody from doing something, we allow something to happen that we probably shouldn't. So, for example, we don't speak up when we should. So, w- y- you know, I, I, I can say for me, like in my business, y- uh, I saw some things happening with money, for example, and I didn't say something and I should have. Uh, sometimes maybe you, uh, allow things to happen, w- you know, and it, it, it's just like things happen in relationships where you shouldn't, and you, you don't speak up. Y- you're just allowing things to happen when you shouldn't. And...I-i-it's an emotional response to trauma, and it's, uh, it allows you to be open and vulnerable to situations, especially with narcissists, that, um, a-allows them to come in and take control.

    7. MRMel Robbins43:03

       I feel so empowered, don't you? Now that you really understand the brain and the development and the emotional aspect of this, and that it's not your fault. (laughs) And now that we got that, okay, we're armed with the knowledge, everybody, I want to pivot, Rebecca, and talk about this concept that you have researched extensively called narcissistic supply, because this concept also changed my life. And so based on your research, can you explain to the person listening, what does narcissistic supply

11. 43:39 – 49:11

    The 2 ways a narcissist gets their “narcissistic supply"

    1. MRMel Robbins43:39

       mean? And we have to really put a lot of emphasis on this as you're listening, and, and, and here's why. Because you have to understand narcissistic supply in order to truly follow Rebecca's four-point strategy and in order to use the, the tactics to win. And it has to do with nar- narcissistic supply, okay? This is paramount to you understanding and being able to effectively deal with narcissism, negotiate with a narcissist, stay grounded in your power, and not get sucked into this supply and demand loop that Rebecca is just about to explain to you. So Rebecca, give us the 101 on narcissistic supply and why it matters.

    2. RZRebecca Zung44:33

       It's anything that feeds their ego. It's, it's, uh, uh, i-i-i-it... because ego is the only thing that they feel is... They're very steeped in ego. So, you know, for... uh, it's the only thing that motivates them. It, it's what fills them and gives them a feeling of value. So for me, I say there's kind of two levels of narcissistic supply. It's that diamond level supply and what I call coal level supply, and there's two tiers. To me, it's tiered, and it's important for people to understand that when they go to create leverage. This diamond level supply is all wrapped up in image. So it's... i-i-i-it could be celebrities, it could be money, it could be a new girlfriend, it could be a judge in the courtroom, it could be s... their employers, it could be the employees, it could be a new life.

    3. MRMel Robbins45:31

       Could it be the outfit they're wearing?

    4. RZRebecca Zung45:32

       It could be the outfit they're wearing.

    5. MRMel Robbins45:32

       The car they're driving? You know, the...

    6. RZRebecca Zung45:34

       It could be the, the, the label of the outfit. It could be the, h... you know, what bank they're banking with. But it's all wrapped up in image. It's all wrapped up in the... eh, what I call the window dressing of-

    7. MRMel Robbins45:49

       Okay.

    8. RZRebecca Zung45:49

       ... the world. But they will protect and defend the diamond level supply at any cost, even at the cost of their children. Even at the cost of their children. And I have seen it. Period. End of story. And then there's what I call coal level supply, which is also very, very important to them. They will... th... you know, they love it, they need it, but it's... there's a slightly less tier, which is degrading people, controlling people, manipulating people, treating people poorly, pushing other people down in order to make themselves feel good. So passive aggressiveness, little comments, you know, "Oh, you know, that dress is very becoming on you for your figure," you know, things like that.

    9. MRMel Robbins46:48

       One of the things that I've seen a lot, 'cause I feel like I've mostly come in contact with people that nee... that do the coal level supply, that insult other people, manipulate other people, is this concept of triangulation-

    10. RZRebecca Zung47:02

        Yeah.

    11. MRMel Robbins47:02

        ... where they are gossiping and-

    12. RZRebecca Zung47:04

        Yeah.

    13. MRMel Robbins47:05

        ... they are building bonds by trashing other people.

    14. RZRebecca Zung47:08

        Yes.

    15. MRMel Robbins47:08

        They're the person in the corner of the room at a party who's gossiping about everybody else-

    16. RZRebecca Zung47:13

        Yes.

    17. MRMel Robbins47:13

        ... to create a bond with someone in the corner.

    18. RZRebecca Zung47:15

        Yes.

    19. MRMel Robbins47:16

        And when I first heard about that as a extremely... um... when I first heard about triangulation and that type of, as you call, coal level supply, trashing other people to bond with the people that you're with, I... that, that was my first introduction to narcissism about five years ago. I'm like, "Wait, that's what a narcissist does?" Oh, yeah, that's the number one sign that somebody has this as a personality type.

    20. RZRebecca Zung47:48

        Mm-hmm.

    21. MRMel Robbins47:48

        And it was mind-blowing because I didn't realize that that becomes something that somebody does in order to supply their own ego, because when you're trashing other people, of course you feel better than other people.

    22. RZRebecca Zung48:02

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    23. MRMel Robbins48:05

        And, um, you know, once you see that, trashing other people, as a sign that you're dealing with narcissism, and you see it in the context of supply, I just want to warn you listening, you're going to see it everywhere. I, I mean it. You're gonna see it everywhere. And so, um, I'm feeling very empowered. I hope you're feeling very empowered. And I want to build on the knowledge from here. We've already learned so much, but we gotta build from here, because now that you kind of have the basics down, and the dynamic down, and this concept of supply down, let's go into the three phases......of a narcissistic relationship, okay? Because what Rebecca has done is Rebecca dug into the cycle of a narcissistic relationship. And I have to tell you, before we unpack this everybody, I used to work on a domestic violence hotline. I did this decades ago. I was a trained crisis intervention counselor, and I will tell you that when you learn the three phases, this cycle of

12. 49:11 – 51:48

    What are the 3 phases of a narcissistic relationship?

    1. MRMel Robbins49:11

       a narcissistic relationship and how supply really plays into it, it feels almost identical to battered women's syndrome, and the romance and the honeymoon cycle and the abuse cycle. And what's interesting is because so many of you have experienced emotional abuse from somebody who's narcissistic, I think it can be really confusing to identify it, because it's kinda sinister. I mean, when somebody hits you, you know it's wrong. But when somebody is, "I didn't say that. I never mean that," raging at you, putting you on edge, making you feel like you're the one going crazy, it's all emotional, and so you start to question yourself. And so Rebecca's gonna teach you that there are three phases of a narcissistic relationship, and they are very distinct. And the first phase is when you get pulled in, and that phase is something you've probably seen other people have happen to them. I've certainly seen it happen to one of our kids. You get swept right off your feet, and you know that this is something called love bombing, and that's what we're gonna talk about when we come back. We're gonna dig into all three phases, what they look like, what they feel like, how to spot which phase you might be in or a friend might be in. And then we are gonna get to that four-step approach to how you deal with a narcissist, how you negotiate, and how you ultimately win and get what you need from the narcissist in your life. So don't you dare go anywhere, 'cause I'm gonna be waiting for you after the break. Welcome back. It's your friend, Mel Robbins. We are digging into narcissism, and boy, are we learning a lot from Rebecca Zung. As you know, Rebecca Zung is one of the top-ranked lawyers in the United States. She has been researching narcissism for decades. She's written three books on the subject, and I love her angle, 'cause she's not a psychologist. She's not a relationship expert. She's a lawyer who is here to make her case. She is a lawyer who shows up in a court with a strategic mind and a game plan to win. And so let's dig in to the three phases, the cycle of a narcissistic relationship. And Rebecca, you write extensively about phase one, which is love bombing. Can you describe what love bombing is?

    2. RZRebecca Zung51:38

       Yeah. So it's the same whether it's a professional or a personal relationship, and, you know, obviously if you're in a family that's, it's totally different.

13. 51:48 – 1:01:02

    What is love bombing, and how do you detect it?

    1. RZRebecca Zung51:48

       But this is initial if you're just meeting a person. So this is, you know, they use mirror neurons, by the way. I mean, this is one thing I do say i- it's they're really, really good at because it's a survival mechanism for them, you know? So it's something that they've learned from childhood to, to do, and that is they kind of become exactly what you want. They, they use... They're very good at reading people. So they be- they become, they're almost like chameleons to read exactly what you want, and they, they come on really, really strongly at the beginning to... I, I, I mean, it's almost like you can't breathe. They, they overpower you, and, you know, all the sudden it's, you know, oh, oh, you're the most amazing thing. They make you feel like you're the most incredible person that they've, uh, they've ever met, and they are the most incredible person that you've ever met, and it's like you're soulmates. And, "Where have you been all my life?" and it's 50 emails a day and 1,000 text messages a day, and they're showing up at your house or office, and, and, "We should get married and we should meet your family." Or if it's a- if it's a business relationship, then, "We should be business partners," and, "I, I've got all the best contacts," and, and it's the excitement and it's the chemistry, and you, you almost can't breathe or see anything else, uh, because it's, it's all them all the time, because they're trying to get you to that next level right away. They wanna lock you in as fast as possible. "Let's get married in Vegas. Let's move in together." It's th- "Get me on your bank accounts," and, you know, many times they'll show up as your savior, you know? If- i- it might be right after somebody died and they're swooping in and they're taking care of everything, or it might be if, if you are a victim of something then, then they'll, they'll show up and they'll take care of everything that way, or, you know, th- they look for opportunities to kind of swoop in if... They look for vulnerabilities that way as well, but, you know, it's, it's, it's sweep you off your feet, grand gestures, massive, huge, grand gestures like that a lot of times. So, like, that's the kinda thing you see at the beginning, big things.

    2. MRMel Robbins54:32

       Got it. Got it.

    3. RZRebecca Zung54:33

       Lock you in.

    4. MRMel Robbins54:34

       One of the things I just wanna point out is that even though you're using terms like, "They look for this, they do this," would you agree, though, that this is, given that it's arrested development, not something that a narcissist is consciously doing?That they're not sitting around going, "Who's my next victim? Who am I gonna love bomb?" This is their way of being.

    5. RZRebecca Zung55:01

       Oh.

    6. MRMel Robbins55:01

       And they do it innately. And so, like, I think part of the reason why it's important to highlight that to everybody is to make sure that you understand that that's why there is such a, a sense of denial. "I never did this, I didn't do that, I didn't say that," because they're not even aware that this is what they're doing. They just think that you're in love, they just think that we should get married, they just think that we are, you know, soulmates. I, I watched this happen with somebody that I love, uh, just in the past year, and it was so alarming, because as this person came on, like, the absolute love of this person's life, and took over their universe, I'm thinking, "This is love bombing, oh my God." But from both the person with narcissism and the person that they were love bombing, this felt like the world's best, most magical love story, and nobody could argue otherwise.

    7. RZRebecca Zung56:04

       Y- I absolutely do think that. And I, I mean, I think they believe everything that they say. I do. And I, I always tell people, send them light, but over there. You have to protect yourself though too. You know? So yes, have compassion for them-

    8. MRMel Robbins56:23

       No, I agree.

    9. RZRebecca Zung56:23

       ... but, you know.

    10. MRMel Robbins56:23

        I, I, I agree. What I'm trying to say is, I think, maybe too fine of a point, that when I see people talk about narcissism, particularly on social media, there is an assumption that there is a very specific, and conscious, and intentional strategy that somebody is deploying. And what I'm trying to say is, I don't believe that's true, because I think this is just how they operate, and they're not even aware that this is how they operate. It's unconscious, which makes it almost more dangerous, that they are stuck in this loop themselves as an eight-year-old emotionally, and they're not doing anything to you, so to speak. This is how they move through every single relationship, and they are not going to be attracted to somebody who is strong and in their power, because you're not buying into the love bombing, and you're not part of this loop. And so I, I guess I, I say that only because I see a lot of misinformation and finger pointing, uh, in the language online. That's not what you're saying, but I think it's important for somebody listening to understand. If you listen closely to what Re- Rebekah Zung is saying, she's saying based on her research, this is something that happens neurologically during childhood. That's why there's so much denial on the part of the narcissist. They're not aware. So, after the love bombing though, and you now are in business with somebody, and you now have given somebody equity, or you have put them into your bank accounts, or you think you're running off and getting married, there's all of a sudden a second stage. What is that stage, Rebekah?

    11. RZRebecca Zung58:05

        The devalue is, that's when you start to see kind of the wheels come off. That's when they start to, like, exhale, and that's where you start to see, like, the red flags. And you know, you don't, there's no more of the 50 emails a day. That's where you start to see the lying. As soon as you get to this part, they've locked you in, they've gotten here, which is what they've been looking for, this is where they kind of relax, because they've kind of been holding their breath trying to get you, get you, get you, and now they've gotten you. And so now, they sort of exhale, and you get to start to see that mask come down a little bit, and, pff, y- you know, now you start to see all the red flags. Their stories aren't holding up.

    12. MRMel Robbins58:55

        (laughs)

    13. RZRebecca Zung58:55

        Now, you start to see lies. Now, you start to see manipulation. Now, oh, that money that they borrowed from you, well, they're not probably ever gonna pay it back. And, but they're starting to lie about, oh, and that degree that they said they had, well, it's not really a degree, it's really something else. And it, and you know that, uh, brother-in-law that they said was actually a thing, well, that's not really a thing. Oh, that project that they said they were gonna do for you, well, that's probably not gonna get done. And you know-

    14. MRMel Robbins59:29

        Ugh.

    15. RZRebecca Zung59:29

        ... all these things are starting to happen, and the 50 calls a day, well, now they don't call you at all, and now, "How come you're so needy?" And you know, it, it, it just becomes this whole relationship that you didn't think it was at all, and you're, you're trying to chase and get that back again. And, but then when you start to walk away, well, then they make promises, "promises" for the future, and it becomes this whole toxic stew, push, pull, push, pull, push, pull, which is also, uh, plays upon your brain, because now you're getting these dopamine hits, you know, so you become physiologically addicted to this person, and that causes a trauma bond in you.

    16. MRMel Robbins1:00:31

        I would love to have you unpack this. Can you... 'Cause as you're describing this, Rebekah, my heart is sinking, because I have watched someone that I love deeply go from a very strong, centered, powerful person to questioning themselves relentlessly, and putting up with bullshit lies and kind of that, "Oh, I never said that," and, "You're needy," and...... kind of that pushback

14. 1:01:02 – 1:08:11

    This is why even the smartest people fall in love with narcissists.

    1. MRMel Robbins1:01:02

       and questioning themselves, and I have not known what to do. And so, can you explain what you mean when you use that term addicted?

    2. RZRebecca Zung1:01:13

       Yes. So, there's a study by a professor from Stanford called, uh, his name is Robert Sapolsky, and he did a study on monkeys. And the monkeys would get a reward every single time they did something good, and nothing happened in their brain. Then he would give these monkeys a reward intermittently, and they didn't know when they were gonna get this reward. And when they didn't know, then the dopamine levels in their brain actually rose to the level of cocaine.

    3. MRMel Robbins1:02:02

       I am so glad you are bringing the study up, Rebecca, in the context of narcissism because I'm very familiar with the study. And just to kind of broaden this out for you listening, this is a really well-known study that's normally talked about in the context of addiction. It was done with monkeys, and here's what it proved. It proved that not getting the reward all the time is what got the monkeys addicted. I can give you another example that'll make sense. Envision a slot machine. When you go and you pull the lever or you push the button on the slot machine and then you're (spinning sound) watch those things, like, twirl, right? As you are craving a win, and you don't get it, ugh, what do you do? Boom, you hit it again. All of a sudden, you get a win. Oh my God, amazing. So now what do you do? You hit it again, and then you hit it again, and then you hit it again, and you hit it again, and now you get to win again, but it's not consistent, is it? See, it's the inconsistency, it's the fact that it might be really good, that's what causes the addiction to it. And so this is really important to understand when in the context of narcissism because the praise and the love bombing and the attention from the narcissist, it's totally unpredictable. Like, one minute, you're the center of the world, and they love you, and you're this and you're that and the other thing, and then boom, the wind changes, and you're in the phase of discard. You're, like, literally, they don't even talk to you, and that's what makes you feel like a monkey addicted to cocaine who doesn't know when it's gonna come next. And this is also why you can have a super smart, rational, accomplished girlfriend and watch her become a complete cocaine addicted monkey when she gets in a relationship with a narcissist. You see the love bombing, then you see the inconsistent behavior, then you try to appeal to her rationally, but then she's back into the love bombing. And it's just like gambling or any other addiction. Because it's so inconsistent, you literally get addicted to the person because you're waiting for that next round of the love bombing to come. This makes so much sense.

    4. RZRebecca Zung1:04:19

       Right. The conclusion was that when you are dealing with a narcissistic type of a person, that the anticipation of this love bomb, you actually become physiologically addicted to this person, and that is partially what contributes to this trauma bond is that y- you're actually, your brain becomes physiologically addicted to that, that hit of, of wanting that back.

    5. MRMel Robbins1:04:57

       I have seen this dynamic play out with somebody I love deeply in a relationship these first two phases of the relationship, the first one being the love bombing everybody, and the second one now is this sort of devaluing that makes the person spin. But then there's this third phase of a narcissistic relationship, this cycle that you can get in, and you label this the discard phase.

    6. RZRebecca Zung1:05:22

       Yeah, so the discard phase can be either you're discarding them or they're discarding you. I mean, this is where, you know, it's the end of the relationship, and you will see the birth of the smear campaign, for sure. But you know, this is where you will definitely become public enemy number one, and because you're either for them or against them, and so even with the covert narcissist, the mask will definitely come off, and y- they will come after you because they want to make sure they take you down before you can take them down.

    7. MRMel Robbins1:05:58

       Hmm. So Rebecca, if you are in that discard phase where they've withdrawn, the lies are coming out, the r- the truth is starting to get revealed, you say there's only three options when you realize you're in this phase. What are they?

    8. RZRebecca Zung1:06:16

       Well, you can stay, y- you can give exactly what, you know, they want, or you can fight back and do it in a way that strategically, a- a- y- you know, which you have to do, you have to do. I, I was the people pleaser, though I wanted to be liked. I didn't wanna, you know, I didn't want other people who were in our circle to think that I was the bad one, she was all likable, and I didn't want people to be mad at me. And you know, I had all this stuff that I needed to, like, get past so that I could s- speak up and stand on my own two feet, and thank God I did.

    9. MRMel Robbins1:06:59

       Thank God you did because now you're here to teach us how to do the same thing and how to try to support the people that we see stuck in this to do the same thing. For somebody listening-...who has been caught in the cycle, and they don't even know what their value is, because they're so spun around. Where do you begin? How do you define it if you don't even know what it is, because you're that, like, "Ah."

    10. RZRebecca Zung1:07:22

        Those baby steps, little baby steps. Once you start little baby stepping it, and you start to see little steps, that's why, w- you know, little wins every single day start to stack up. And when you start to see, "Ah, you know what? I did it. I started to, uh, b- create a boundary today, and it worked. I started to do this a little bit today, and it worked." You know, that's where you start to stack up those wins, and, and you start to turn it around, and you'll see, it start, it, it, it'll work. It starts working.

    11. MRMel Robbins1:07:58

        The, the two biggest things that changed for me, in terms of me getting on the offensive, was identifying the narcissism is a tantrum, and visualizing the narcissist as an eight-year-old

15. 1:08:11 – 1:11:02

    What do those passive-aggressive or back-handed comments mean to a narcissist?

    1. MRMel Robbins1:08:11

       in a tantrum, which helped me separate myself, and the second thing was really taking a pause after visualizing the tantrum, and asking myself, "Well, what do I want right now? And if I don't want to deal with this, it's a yes or no, or silence, and if I do want to deal with it," it's a, it's exactly what you're talking about, in terms of thinking about, "Okay, well there's going to be a supply here. What am I willing to give to get what I want?"

    2. RZRebecca Zung1:08:45

       Right.

    3. MRMel Robbins1:08:45

       And doing that consciously and emotionally distant makes you feel so empowered, because you're no longer in it. You're now the one manipulating it, and they don't even know-

    4. RZRebecca Zung1:08:59

       100%.

    5. MRMel Robbins1:09:00

       ... and it's fantastic.

    6. RZRebecca Zung1:09:00

       You are the one in control. And, and just remember, what's negotiable is contracts, and issues, and terms, not your self-worth, your self-esteem, or who you are.

    7. MRMel Robbins1:09:14

       Is it 'cause there's so much denial when you're in it, and so much, I think, explaining away bad behavior, that I'm not sure people understand the strategies and the patterns that you can spot when you know them. So, what are some of the most common patterns that narcissists use to keep your attention, and that supply coming back to them?

    8. RZRebecca Zung1:09:41

       Well, gaslighting is probably one of the biggest ones. I mean, I think all narcissists use gaslighting to destabilize you, and make you think that you're crazy. You, y- y- so, you know, it would look like, and it, it, it, there's so many different forms of gaslighting, but the, the bottom line of gaslighting is trying to make you think that you're crazy. So, it comes from the movie, or the play Gaslight, where the husband was blowing out gaslights to try to make the wife think that she was crazy. So, she would say, "Wasn't that just lit?" And he would say, "No. No, it wasn't." So, that's what they do. So, they'll say, "Oh, I'm going away with my friends for our anniversary weekend," and she would say, the wife would say, "Oh, you're going away on our anniversary weekend? We, we never discussed that." "Oh, yeah. We had a whole conversation about that, and you agreed. Don't you remember?" "No. We, we never had that conversation." "Oh, yeah. We did," and, "You know. You know you, we k- never had that conversation." Y- that's gaslighting.

    9. MRMel Robbins1:10:46

       You're giving my heart palpitations, because I really felt like I was in the presence of this particular person (laughs) that does this to me all the time.

    10. RZRebecca Zung1:10:56

        Mm-hmm.

    11. MRMel Robbins1:10:57

        So, what do you think the biggest myth is about-

16. 1:11:02 – 1:17:29

    The biggest myth about narcissists

    1. RZRebecca Zung1:11:02

       Oh.

    2. MRMel Robbins1:11:02

       ... narcissism, or negotiating with narcissists?

    3. RZRebecca Zung1:11:06

       100% it is that narcissists just want to win, because-

    4. MRMel Robbins1:11:12

       So-

    5. RZRebecca Zung1:11:12

       Yeah, because they do want to win, but they also want to continue to manipulate you and see you squirm. And so, the problem, the reason why people have trouble negotiating with narcissists, and they can't ever get out of these things, is because narcissists continue to move goal posts all the time, because they enjoy the coal-level supply too, and so they've missed the mark. They forgot about the coal-level supply. And so, unless you figure out a way to threaten a source of supply that's more important for them to keep than the supply that they get from jerking you around, which is the coal-level supply, then you're never going to be done. Ever.

    6. MRMel Robbins1:12:11

       And I bet you saw over and over again, being an attorney for 20 years representing people, particularly in high net worth divorces-

    7. RZRebecca Zung1:12:22

       Years.

    8. MRMel Robbins1:12:22

       ... that divorces go on for years, and years, and years with narcissists, because they, by keeping the divorce, and the arguing, and all that crap alive, they're getting that supply that they're t- that you're talking about.

    9. RZRebecca Zung1:12:34

       And I didn't know what was going on, as a lawyer. I had no idea. I had a, a guy, uh, l- the divorce lasted five years. He told me, "I'd rather pay you than her."

    10. MRMel Robbins1:12:45

        Yes. I, I think a lot of people say that.

    11. RZRebecca Zung1:12:48

        And I remember saying to him, "You don't need to put my kid through college," 'cause I was, like, sick of him myself.

    12. MRMel Robbins1:12:54

        (laughs)

    13. RZRebecca Zung1:12:54

        I mean, like, like, "How do I get rid of you?" You know? But y- y- you know, I- I didn't realize that that's what he was doing.

    14. MRMel Robbins1:13:08

        And what you're basically saying is that conflict, and the ability to bitch to your lawyer about the, quote, crazy person on the other side-It actually creates that coal-level supply in you, the narcissist, because you feel better than the crazy person. Is that... Am I getting this?

    15. RZRebecca Zung1:13:27

        Yeah. Well, I- I'll tell you a crazy story. I'm gonna tell you about a two million dollar apology.

    16. MRMel Robbins1:13:34

        Okay, I'd like one of those. (laughs)

    17. RZRebecca Zung1:13:39

        So, I had a case where it was... We were mediating, and we thought we were just about done. The guy was going to pay the wife. I mean, she was getting a lot of assets too, but over the course of the next several years, he was gonna be paying her two million dollars in alimony, m- monthly, but it was gonna add up to about two million dollars. And he was big flaming narcissist. And anyway, mediator comes in, it's like 9 o'clock at night, we've been mediating for, like, 12 hours, and he says to me, eh, "Hey, Rebecca, can I talk to you for a second?" We go out into the reception area, and he's like, "I've never seen this before, but the wife, crazy enough, she's willing to waive alimony completely if he'll go in there, just the two of them, and apologize to her for all of the things and the way he treated her during the marriage, sincerely." I'm like, "And what's the catch?" And he said, "No catch. She just wants an apology." I'm like, "All right, if she's willing to waive it, we'll put it in the, in the agreement." And it, her h- her lawyer's standing there, and she's like, "Yeah, I told her no, but this is what she wants. The... Like, this really means a lot to her." I mean, I'm like, "All right." So, I go into the room, and I said... I told him what was going on, and he says, "No. I'm not gonna do it." I said, "What?"

    18. MRMel Robbins1:15:48

        (laughs)

    19. RZRebecca Zung1:15:49

        Because you know why? Because he wanted the chance to be able to continue to screw with her every-

    20. MRMel Robbins1:15:55

        Yeah.

    21. RZRebecca Zung1:15:55

        ... single month, not pay her, keep her on a string, do the whole thing, right? And she wanted to be done-

    22. MRMel Robbins1:16:04

        Yes.

    23. RZRebecca Zung1:16:04

        ... with this dude, right? And I'm like, "I'm gonna kick your butt. You're going over there right now," and I'm thinking to myself, "I need a CYA letter. Like, he's gonna come back over here and tell me, 'Why didn't you make me do this?'" So, I said, "You're going over there. You're doing this." So, he went over there finally and did it, like this, with like a puppy dog with his tail between his legs, and he did it, and we got... The alimony waived had actually happened. But he did not want to.

    24. MRMel Robbins1:16:38

        You wrote in your book, "Staying in a relationship with a narcissist just is really and truly not an option," and you listening to us, as you're reflecting on everything that Rebecca Zung is, is sharing with you based on her personal experience, her professional experience, and all of this extensive research, the 40 million views on her YouTube channel, like, she knows this inside and out. You have this phrase, "Today is a great day to start negotiating my best life." And if you f- see yourself reflected in the comments or the stories that Rebecca is talking about, there are things that you say, Rebecca, that you need to stop doing immediately if you wanna get out of a narcissistic relationship. What are the things you need to stop doing

17. 1:17:29 – 1:19:34

    The first boundary you need to create with a narcissist

    1. MRMel Robbins1:17:29

       in order to s- cut off that supply, and get out of there, and negotiate for yourself?

    2. RZRebecca Zung1:17:36

       Yeah. So, step one, don't run. Step two, make a U-turn. Step three, break free. So, in this strategy, which is the first step, you have to have these action steps. So, in that first action step, step one, don't run. Stop allowing them to speak to you in a disrespectful manner. I mean, that's the very first step. E- you know, I know you feel like it's so overwhelming, and it's fearful, and it's scary, and it feels like, oh my god, you're gonna have all this backlash, and I know that. I, I, you know, I... Because y- you feel like they're gonna have that tantrum, right? But that very first boundary can... That very first baby step can be, "I'm not gonna allow myself to be spoken in, i- to in a way that's disrespectful." That can be your very first step today, because y- I know you have to course correct. It's like, stop that conditioning. 180 degree turn, right? Stop that conditioning. So, v- first boundary is that. Start looking at them l- as if they are a child having a tantrum on the floor. Start putting that invisible shield down around you, and like Superman having, you know, uh, uh, bullets off your chest, or Wonder Woman with the gold bracelets. Remember, they didn't attach themselves to you because you have so little value. They attached themselves to you because you had so much. They devalue you because you have so much value. So, remember that. Start looking at them like that. St- stop defending yourself. You know, never explain, justify, or overshare.So, you know, just start looking at them as if they're a third party. Just say, you know, "We can discuss this when you have calmed

18. 1:19:34 – 1:22:09

    Why does saying “I’m anticipating..." disarm any narcissist?

    1. RZRebecca Zung1:19:34

       down." Or, you know, "I can see that you are upset. I can see that you are angry." Observing their behavior. Let it go by you, almost like, pretend like the words are like looking, you know, you know, whizzing by you. I always say it's sort of like dodgeball. When I was a kid, dodgeball was a big thing.

    2. MRMel Robbins1:19:53

       (laughs)

    3. RZRebecca Zung1:19:54

       You know? So, like, I always remember like the words were just like, like they're looking at you, hitting the wall.

    4. MRMel Robbins1:19:59

       So is that, just so I know, 'cause we're gonna get a ton of questions, which is, okay wait, how do I allow myself to not speak? How do I allow myself to hold a boundary and not be disrespected when this person barrages me with texts or yells at me and then I get paralyzed? And you have these essential phrases-

    5. RZRebecca Zung1:20:19

       Yeah.

    6. MRMel Robbins1:20:19

       ...that you coach people to use to disarm a narcissist, and observe the tantrum, acknowledge it, but not let it hit you. Can you share a bunch of those phrases that you coach people to use?

    7. RZRebecca Zung1:20:30

       Yes. You can say things like, "I agree with you. I, I agree with you that we're not going to agree. I agree with you that that's your opinion." You, you can say things like that. You know, "I agree with you" is always a good one, because they kind of hear, "I agree with you," but just make sure that you follow it up with, "I agree that that's your opinion." If you're, if they're saying things like, you know, "You're a terrible mother," or whatever, you just make sure that, "I agree that that's your opinion." You know, uh, I, uh, "Your triggers are not my responsibility." You know, you could always say things like that, because they, they often say, you know, "It's your fault this," or "Your fault that," something like that. But you can always make sure to remove yourself from a situation where you're not being respected.

    8. MRMel Robbins1:21:21

       I love these phrases. "I understand that's how you feel." "Your approach is not working for me." "Let's discuss this when you're less emotional or angry." Do you have any coaching for the fact that I think most people are afraid to say that, because they're then going to invite narcissistic rage?

    9. RZRebecca Zung1:21:39

       Mm-hmm.

    10. MRMel Robbins1:21:39

        So when you use one of these phrases to connect with your power, and to not allow yourself to be disrespected, "I understand that's how you feel."

    11. RZRebecca Zung1:21:49

        Mm-hmm.

    12. MRMel Robbins1:21:49

        And then the person raises the stakes and starts raging at you. What would you advise somebody to do that is just starting to practice these boundaries and create boundaries and not run away from the situation?

    13. RZRebecca Zung1:22:04

        If they feel like they are going to be in harm's way

19. 1:22:09 – 1:29:09

    Rebecca’s 4-part framework you need to deal with a narcissist

    1. RZRebecca Zung1:22:09

       in some way, then they really may need to remove themselves from this, uh, same physical space.

    2. MRMel Robbins1:22:14

       Okay.

    3. RZRebecca Zung1:22:14

       You know, there's a saying that says that, you know, if, if you don't want to be a doormat anymore, get up off the floor. And, you know, you train people, you condition people on how to treat you. And, and that's... I mean, it may sound harsh, but it is the absolute truth, and narcissists are the, the best ones for that. That, and that's just the tru- the truth of the matter.

    4. MRMel Robbins1:22:39

       So if they don't change and somebody's either unwilling or too scared to leave right now, how can you truly negotiate with somebody like that?

    5. RZRebecca Zung1:22:51

       Well, you can, because it... what I teach works.

    6. MRMel Robbins1:22:55

       Rebecca, I just have to say, I love the swagger. "Well, you can, 'cause what I teach works," because that makes me believe you. And you're referring to your SLAY method, and SLAY is a four-part framework that you follow in the courtroom and in life for dealing with, negotiating with, and winning against a narcissist. Can you explain what SLAY stands for?

    7. RZRebecca Zung1:23:21

       SLAY stands for strategy, leverage, anticipate, and you.

    8. MRMel Robbins1:23:26

       So let's start with the first one, S. What does it stand for?

    9. RZRebecca Zung1:23:30

       S stands for developing a super strong strategy, which is... The first part of that is creating a vision. If you're just trying to communicate in general, if you're just trying to figure out what to do with them, if, if you're in a family situation, if you're just trying to, you know, figure out how to, um, deal with them in life, if it's your neighbor, if it's, if it's your tenant, what is it that you want? So many times people are like, "Ugh, I just want them to stop," or, "I just want peace."

    10. MRMel Robbins1:24:04

        (laughs)

    11. RZRebecca Zung1:24:04

        That's not... That's not a, a, a, a goal. What... You w- you want to be specific about what you want. So-

    12. MRMel Robbins1:24:12

        Is there a reason why peace can't be a goal? And let's, let's take the example that you either have a mother or a father who is a narcissist, and all you do want is peace. You are not ready to, um, become estranged and to remove them from your life, and you want to figure out a strategy that helps you know what your vision is. How do you figure that out? Because, you know, to your point, you always talk about these three C's, that you can't change them, you can't control them, and you can't... What's the other one?

    13. RZRebecca Zung1:24:50

        You can't cause it, control it, or cure it.

    14. MRMel Robbins1:24:52

        That's right. You can't cause this, you can't cure it, and you can't control it. And so knowing that, how do you create a vision if it's your mother or your father? Like, what questions do you ask yourself?

    15. RZRebecca Zung1:25:05

        I still think even if it's your mother or father, you can create a more specific vision around what that relationship should look like for you. So-

    16. MRMel Robbins1:25:16

        I don't want to be triggered all the time. I don't want her or his BS to trigger me or make me feel manipulated.

    17. RZRebecca Zung1:25:24

        Right, or even put that in positive terms, like, you know...

    18. MRMel Robbins1:25:27

        (laughs) Do I have to? (laughs)

    19. RZRebecca Zung1:25:29

        Yeah.

    20. MRMel Robbins1:25:30

        Put it in positive terms, okay. What-what does that look like?

    21. RZRebecca Zung1:25:33

        Right. So, you know, uh, "We will see each other X number-number of times a year, and during those visits we will have these kinds of conversations," and, you know, uh, "This is how I will define the relationship." And, you know, I think that you should be, uh, more specific like that because-

    22. MRMel Robbins1:25:56

        I love that.

    23. RZRebecca Zung1:25:57

        Yeah. I-I think that will be... Because you-you get what you envision in life, right? So...

    24. MRMel Robbins1:26:05

        I love that. I love that because you're right. I think you're so conditioned when you're dealing with somebody who's narcissistic to think about it from what you're enduring versus what would you actually want. And a lot of times it's like, "I'd like to be able to walk into a school function where my ex is and not feel like I've just left my body in a panic attack." I put that in a negative, but, um, that's a bit... That's a very common one that we, that I noticed, is that people dealing with exes and feeling completely enmeshed and triggered and wanting to be able to feel powerful and unaffected anytime I see them.

    25. RZRebecca Zung1:26:46

        Right. Yeah. I- I-

    26. MRMel Robbins1:26:48

        Is that positive enough?

    27. RZRebecca Zung1:26:49

        No, I think it-

    28. MRMel Robbins1:26:50

        Okay. (laughs)

    29. RZRebecca Zung1:26:52

        I think... (laughs)

    30. MRMel Robbins1:26:52

        I love you, Rebecca. Help us.
20. 1:29:09 – 1:39:33

    When the rage hits, here is how you can stay in your power.

    1. RZRebecca Zung1:29:09

       Exactly. Just as long as you know that you're only doing it in order to get, you know, what you want. So, if you have to go shower, vomit later, then, you know, you do the thing. Um, but, you know, i-it's in order to get what you want later. So, um, but m-more often than not what you kind of have to do is use your documentation because they lie so much, because they're so careless, frankly. I mean, they don't think you're ever gonna keep track of all the different times that they say things that are, um, you know... They'll say something in a text message, they'll say something in a, in an email, they'll say... I mean, honestly, they are very irrational. They, as we talked about at the beginning of this show how many times their memory is faulty or whatever, and... But if you keep track, that's how you create your leverage in a negotiation, and you say, "Hey, um, you said this, you said this, you said this. I am going to present this in court." I call it ethically manipulating the manipulator. You can call it whatever you want. Many times empaths are uncomfortable with that sort of thing. You have to be on the offensive when you're dealing with a narcissist. It's not doing anything other than what works. I mean, it's not, um, anything that's, you know, uh, unethical at all, but you have to do the things that are, are offensive, whereas most empaths are like, "I don't wanna fight. I just want to resolve this peacefully. Let's just come to a resolution," but if you want to come to a resolution and you want them to stop jerking you around and you want them to leave you alone, this is what you have to do because they're never gonna leave you alone. They're never going to stop. You know, I... So many people come to me and they say, "Oh, we're still in court. It's five years later. They won't leave me alone." And I say...Well, then you haven't figured out how, what your diamond-level supply is yet. You haven't figured out how to, you know, what your leverage is yet.

    2. MRMel Robbins1:31:44

       I bet that part, figuring out your leverage, is the hardest part, because you feel so spun around by the narcissist. So, let me just see if I can track with you here. In your four-part framework for negotiating with a narcissist, it's SLAY. So remember, everybody, S is strategy. You have to have a vision of what you're looking for, and that you want to get out of the relationship, and, and again, you have to have this going in, or you're gonna be spun around like a top. And the example that you gave, Rebecca, is, "My strategy is, I'd like to sit next to them in a school function and discuss our child in a civil manner." The next step is L, and L is for leverage. And again, this has to do with that narcissistic supply. They're always going to want to feed their ego. This never ends. You've learned this, and you have to accept that as fact and then use your leverage to give them what they want, even if it makes you vomit later. And you're doing this, you're giving them the supply, the attention, the praise, the this, the that, the weekend trade that they're asking for, you're giving them that, even if it means, "Blah, I don't wanna have to do this." Why? So you can get what you want. And the reason why this is important is because when you supply them with something, what happens? You go into the cycle where they're nice to you. And lots of leverage, by the way, Rebecca is teaching you, comes down to giving them what they want, but also documenting what they say, what they do, and how many times you say something, and how many times you do something. And why do you need the documentation? Especially if you're in sort of a confrontational kind of thing. Uh, and you don't have to be in court for this, by the way. This might be that you constantly argue with your parents about who's hosting the holidays. Keep a record. Keep a record so you have proof. I, I'm dead serious about this, because this comes down to leverage and to supply, right? And this also keeps you from going crazy. And a lot of this has to do with the fact that when you give them something, they're in a good mood, so you can sneak in what you want. See how this works? I love this. So now that we understand the strategy and the leverage, A comes next. And you say, Rebecca, "You and I gotta be able to be two steps ahead, always. You gotta anticipate." Can you teach us what you mean by that?

    3. RZRebecca Zung1:34:21

       So, A is where you can actually figure out the type of narcissist that you're dealing with, 'cause they will all act a little differently in negotiations. And so, a, a covert narcissist is much more likely to use the flying monkeys and pretend like they're the nice one, and, "I'm the victim," and, you know, "Oh, poor me," and all of that. Covert narcissists are gonna be the first one, if, if somebody has cancer to show up with a basket and be right at their side in the hospital, and, you know, that sort of thing, but smearing everybody on the side, you know? So, you know, you just have to be careful of who you're dealing with. And then, um, the anticipation is that, also that knowing that they're going to try to bait you. I always say they go fishing. They go, "Chk," and then they, they reel you in, like this, and then once they have you, you're in the mud, and you're down there.

    4. MRMel Robbins1:35:22

       That makes a lot of sense. So what's the final part of the four-part SLAY framework?

    5. RZRebecca Zung1:35:27

       The Y, which is you, which is you standing in your authentic power. For you on the offensive, and then also your mindset, because 100% of winning is your mindset. And if you don't believe you can win, nobody can help you. And, you know, I have so many people who have said to me, you know, that, "I can't win," or, "I can't do this," or whatever, and I always say to people, "Do you want to be right about that, or do you actually want to win?" Because you can be right, or you can actually get out of this and win, but you can't have both, right? The good news is that there is a way to deal with them. You know, most people think that there's not. Most people say, "You can't negotiate with a narcissist. You can't deal with a narcissist. There's nothing you can do, that it, it's pointless, it's hopeless." The good news is that there is actually a framework. It is actually pretty simple. They are actually pretty simple to understand, and that once you get on the other side of it, and you stand up to them, and you, you grab th- that power, the freedom that you feel, the feeling that you feel is actually beyond better than anything else. People who I've helped through my programs are so powerful now. I, I actually now have master coaches who are becoming, you know, they're, they're graduating from my coaching program now. And it, it is beyond anything else that's more magical and more powerful than ever. That's the, the beautiful thing. You, and you alone, define your value. You can win.

    6. MRMel Robbins1:37:32

       Thank you, thank you, thank you, because we are all benefiting from the wisdom, and the experience, and all of this insight and these strategies that you're sharing with people around the world. And I personally want to thank you for taking the time to be with us and to empower us to not only spot this in our lives, but be smarter about it and take that first step, which is, "Don't run. Get connected to your power and start to make a plan." And because of what you shared today, Rebecca Zung, we now can. Thank you.

    7. RZRebecca Zung1:38:09

       Aw, thank you. Thank you for having me.

    8. MRMel Robbins1:38:13

       Ooh, I got a lot out of that. I hope you did too, and one of the things that I hope you will be able to do, given all of the tools and the wisdom and the analogies and the visuals and the scripts that Rebecca just gave you, is I hope you can be the Good Witch in your own life. That when toxic people or narcissism comes floating in like that Bad Witch in The Wizard of Oz, you can just raise your hand, "Go away. You have no power here." Because if you use the tools and the strategies that you just learned, they will have no power over you, and that's exactly what I want. I want you to feel connected to yourself, and I want you to be able to rise above this stuff so that you can get what you want out of your life, regardless of what that is. Alrighty, in case nobody else tells you, I wanna be sure to tell you that I love you, I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And now you have the tools to do so, even when there's a narcissist in it. Alrighty, I'll talk to you in a few days. Thank you so much for being here with me on YouTube, and because you got so much out of this, I want you to go to this video next. It's the five signs that you're dealing with a narcissist, and you're gonna love it. Check it out.

Episode duration: 1:39:33