The Mel Robbins Podcast

Outsmart a Narcissist: A Proven 4-Step Plan to Take Your Power Back | Mel Robbins Podcast

Order your copy of The Let Them Theory 👉 https://melrob.co/let-them-theory 👈 The #1 Best Selling Book of 2025 🔥 Discover how much power you truly have. It all begins with two simple words. Let Them. — Is it possible to be around narcissistic people and not lose your power? Especially when it's your mom, dad, ex, or boss who’s acting toxic? Today, Mel is joined by Rebecca Zung, an expert on narcissism and a globally recognized high-conflict negotiator. Rebecca is also a top-ranked trial lawyer who has studied narcissism so that she could win against them in the courtroom. She’s written the playbook, SLAY the Bully: How to Negotiate with A Narcissist and Win. She is here to make the case that you CAN stay in power no matter how toxic the people are around you. And by following her 4-part plan, you can even win when dealing with narcissism. In this conversation, Rebecca discusses topics like: Narcissism: what is it? The 3 types of #narcissism The link between narcissism and divorce The exact phrases that can change the dynamic between you and a narcissist The top 3 sentences to disarm a narcissist without causing rage Why “cutting off” a narcissist won’t work The physical symptoms you can have when dealing with a narcissist Why being “the victim” is keeping you trapped What happens in a narcissistic brain in childhood that flips a switch The tie between trauma and narcissism What the 4 non-verbal triggers for any narcissist are Why a narcissist is just an 8-year-old throwing a tantrum The reason why a narcissist actually fears you The definition of love bombing and why it’s so addictive What the 3 phases of a narcissistic relationship are How you can be physiologically addicted to a ‘love bomber’ (it’s as addictive as cocaine) What your 3 options are in a relationship with a narcissist What those passive-aggressive or back-handed comments mean to a narcissist What triangulation is, and how to protect yourself The biggest myth about narcissists The real reason why narcissists string you along The 4-step process to getting your power back from a narcissist The $2M apology What to do when a narcissist is raging at you The 3 things to stop doing now in a narcissistic relationship How to respond to an accusatory email at work What you need to know about negotiating with a narcissist Why saying “I’m anticipating…” disarms any narcissist The first boundary you need to create with a narcissist What to look for as signs that you are dating, engaged to, or married to a narcissist Follow The Mel Robbins Podcast: The Mel Robbins Podcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themelrobbinspodcast/ I’m just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is NOT intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I’ll see you in the next episode. In this episode: 00:00 Intro 02:27 Why “cutting off” a narcissist won’t work. 07:02 What is a narcissist? (It’s not what you think.) 09:11 You need to stand up to the narcissist in your life. 12:52 The 3 types of narcissism look like this. 17:39 This is the scariest type of narcissist. 21:07 What happens in a narcissist brain in childhood that flips a switch? 32:17 This is what “narcissistic blindness” is. 35:33 Narcissists aren’t born; they are made. Here’s the research. 40:47 Do narcissists feel fear? 43:39 The 2 ways a narcissist gets their “narcissistic supply" 49:11 What are the 3 phases of a narcissistic relationship? 51:48 What is love bombing, and how do you detect it? 1:01:02 This is why even the smartest people fall in love with narcissists. 1:08:11 What do those passive-aggressive or back-handed comments mean to a narcissist? 1:11:02 The biggest myth about narcissists 1:17:29 The first boundary you need to create with a narcissist 1:19:34 Why does saying “I’m anticipating..." disarm any narcissist? 1:22:09 Rebecca’s 4-part framework you need to deal with a narcissist 1:29:09 When the rage hits, here is how you can stay in your power. — Follow Mel: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melrobbins/ TikTok: http://tiktok.com/@melrobbins Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melrobbins LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melrobbins Website: http://melrobbins.com — Sign up for Mel’s newsletter: https://melrob.co/sign-up-newsletter A note from Mel to you, twice a week, sharing simple, practical ways to build the life you want. — Subscribe to Mel’s channel here: https://www.youtube.com/melrobbins?sub_confirmation=1 — Listen to The Mel Robbins Podcast 🎧 New episodes drop every Monday & Thursday! https://melrob.co/spotify https://melrob.co/applepodcasts https://melrob.co/amazonmusic — Looking for Mel’s books on Amazon? Find them here: The Let Them Theory: https://amzn.to/3IQ21Oe The Let Them Theory Audiobook: https://amzn.to/413SObp The High 5 Habit: https://amzn.to/3fMvfPQ The 5 Second Rule: https://amzn.to/4l54fah

Mel RobbinshostRebecca Zungguest

Nov 20, 20231h 39mWatch on YouTube ↗

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Outsmart Narcissists: Lawyer’s Four-Step Strategy To Reclaim Your Power

Mel Robbins interviews top trial lawyer and narcissism expert Rebecca Zung about how to recognize, understand, and strategically deal with narcissists you cannot easily cut out of your life. Zung explains narcissism as a trauma-based disorder rooted in arrested emotional development, where the thinking brain matures but the emotional brain does not. They break down narcissistic types, the three-phase relationship cycle (love bombing, devaluation, discard), and the concept of “narcissistic supply” that drives all behavior. Zung then teaches her SLAY framework—Strategy, Leverage, Anticipate, You—to help people negotiate with narcissists, set boundaries, and regain their sense of self and power.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

Narcissists are made by trauma, not born that way.

Repeated childhood trauma can stunt emotional brain development (the limbic system) while the logical brain continues maturing, creating adults who can reason well but have the emotional regulation of a child—explaining volatility, rage, and denial.

Stop personalizing narcissistic behavior; it is about their survival, not your worth.

Understanding that their reactions stem from fear, shame, and arrested development allows you to see them like a tantruming eight-year-old, which decreases your emotional reactivity and helps you reclaim power.

Recognize and interrupt the three-phase narcissistic cycle.

Narcissistic relationships typically move through love bombing (intense idealization), devaluation (lies, inconsistency, subtle cruelty), and discard (smear campaigns, becoming ‘public enemy #1’). Seeing the pattern is the first step to breaking the trauma bond.

Narcissistic supply is the leverage point in any interaction or negotiation.

They are driven by supply—image-based ‘diamond’ supply (status, reputation, money, admiration) and ‘coal’ supply (control, degradation, making you squirm). To get resolution, you must either threaten or trade around the supply they value most.

Set non-negotiable boundaries around disrespect and stop over-explaining.

A foundational step is deciding you will not allow disrespectful communication, then using short, neutral phrases (“I agree that’s your opinion,” “We can talk when you’re calm”) instead of defending, explaining, or justifying, which only feeds their control.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

A narcissist is not a person who thinks so highly of themself. It is a person who absolutely has no feeling of value internally about themselves.

— Rebecca Zung

Once you know who you truly are and you stand in your authentic power, then the narcissist is like, ‘Go away. You have no power here.’

— Rebecca Zung

You actually become physiologically addicted to this person.

— Rebecca Zung

Remember, they didn’t attach themselves to you because you have so little value. They attached themselves to you because you had so much.

— Rebecca Zung

What’s negotiable is contracts, and issues, and terms—not your self-worth, your self-esteem, or who you are.

— Rebecca Zung

Redefining narcissism and its psychological origins in childhood traumaTypes of narcissists: grandiose, covert, and malignantArrested emotional development, limbic system impairment, and emotional ‘blindness’Narcissistic supply (diamond-level vs. coal-level) and why it mattersThe three phases of a narcissistic relationship: love bombing, devalue, discardCommon manipulation tactics: gaslighting, triangulation, smear campaigns, goalpost-shiftingRebecca Zung’s SLAY framework for negotiating with narcissists and setting boundaries

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