PSYCHOLOGICAL TRICKS To Boost Your Influence, Income, and Impact TODAY! | The Mel Robbins Podcast

1. 0:00 – 0:40

   Intro

   1. MRMel Robbins0:03

      Guess what we're talking about today? You and me, baby. We're talking about the it factor. Some people just have it, don't they? And based on the research, when people have the it factor, it means they have charisma. So today, you're gonna meet one of the world's leading researchers and experts on charisma and body language, Vanessa Van Edwards, and she's here to prove to you that you have the it factor. Yes, I'm talking to you. And the skill of charisma, that is how you are gonna bring your it factor to life. Let's go, man. Class is in session.

2. 0:40 – 3:26

   Introducing Vanessa Van Edwards

   1. MRMel Robbins0:41

      Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to an amazing, buckle up your seatbelt episode of The Mel Robbins Podcast. Guess what we're talking about today? You and me, baby. We're talking about the it factor. That's right, the it factor. I don't even know how to say it, but we're talking about it. Some people just have it, don't they? Just think about who you admire that has the it factor. I'll give you my list. Oprah, The Rock, the Dalai Lama, Taylor Swift. Oh, and the late Robin Williams and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Those folks, they have the it factor. Why? Well, because they have this ability to make me lean in and care about what they're saying. We not only admire folks like this, but we like them and we trust them. That is the heart of having the it factor, and based on the research, when people have the it factor, you know what it means? It means they have charisma. Charisma is a really cool thing, because charisma will make you more influential. It'll help you make a bigger impact, and charisma absolutely is gonna help you make some more money, because according to the research, 82% of people's impression of you is based on whether or not you display charisma. Did you hear that? 82% of someone's impression of you is based on whether or not you got charisma. I know I said it twice. That's how important it is. And here's the coolest thing about charisma. It's really easy to hack when you know the simple things you need to do. So today, here's what we're doing on the show. You're gonna meet one of the world's leading researchers and experts on charisma and body language, Vanessa Van Edwards. She's a behavioral investigator, the founder of the research group Science of People, the author of the bestselling books on these topics, Captivate and Cues, and she's here to prove to you that you have the it factor. Yes, I'm talking to you. And the skill of charisma, that is how you are gonna bring your it factor to life, so you can make an impact, you can influence people, and you can make more income. Let's go, man. Class is in session. I am so excited for this. So, let's dial up the skill of charisma. Let's bring the it factor to life. Let's increase our influence, impact, and income, people, and let's welcome Vanessa to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I'm so excited for this! Vanessa, I'm so glad you're here. Well, welcome. I'm so psyched you're here.

   2. VEVanessa Van Edwards3:15

      I'm so happy to be here, I can't even tell you.

   3. MRMel Robbins3:18

      Well, let's just jump right into it, because you have written the book-

   4. VEVanessa Van Edwards3:21

      Oh.

   5. MRMel Robbins3:21

      ... on both charisma and body language, and so I wanna start with,

3. 3:26 – 26:34

   Definition: What is charisma and why it matters

   1. MRMel Robbins3:26

      what is charisma and why does it matter?

   2. VEVanessa Van Edwards3:30

      What people don't realize is that charisma, more than any other attribute, is the single most important aspect of you being successful. It helps you in your relationships, it helps you professionally, helps people take you seriously. It helps you also feel more confident and purposeful in your interactions. So charisma is that missing ingredient that we need to trigger or activate our success.

   3. MRMel Robbins3:51

      Wow. I mean, you hear so much about confidence, you hear about extroverts versus introverts, but how is it that charisma impacts all those things more than your personality or confidence?

   4. VEVanessa Van Edwards4:04

      When research looks at highly charismatic people, they find that we are looking for people who are signaling high charisma, because it shows all those other things. Highly charismatic people are confident, they are competent, they are warm, they are likable, and so the most amazing aspect of charisma is it can be learned. It is not an innate trait. You don't have to be born with it or not, that anyone can be- can learn how to be more charismatic through a very specific set of cues.

   5. MRMel Robbins4:31

      That's crazy. And you- you say that you were very awkward before you leveraged all the cues you're about to teach us. Will you tell us a little bit about what you struggled with?

   6. VEVanessa Van Edwards4:43

      So what's funny about charisma, it- I've always been fascinated by this trait. I'm a recovering awkward person.

   7. MRMel Robbins4:49

      (laughs)

   8. VEVanessa Van Edwards4:50

      (laughs) So charisma does not come naturally to me. I've always been fascinated by the cool kids. You know, I watched them and I'm like, "Ah, how do they know what to do?" And so I was, for many years, trapped by this mistaken belief that to be charismatic, you have to be extroverted, you have to be bubbly, you have to be the life of the party, and I am not an extrovert, and so I always thought, "Well, I guess I can't have it. It's an innate trait. You have to be extroverted." What research actually finds is that charisma has nothing to do with your extraversion, your attractiveness, your athleticism, even your intelligence. The actual definition of highly charismatic people, what makes them different is they set- send a very specific set of social signals. Specifically, they are constantly signaling high warmth, so trust, likability, friendliness, along with, and this is the key, a balance of high competence, capability, power, effectiveness. And what's magical about this is if you're with someone and you are drawn into them, you immediately are able to answer two questions, "I can trust you," and, "I can rely on you." And so highly charismatic people, that's what they're signaling, warmth and competence at all times.

   9. MRMel Robbins6:01

      Wow. Okay. So let me see if I just can bottom line this.

   10. VEVanessa Van Edwards6:05

       Yes.

   11. MRMel Robbins6:07

       So charisma...If you have charisma or you display charisma, I guess is what I should say-

   12. VEVanessa Van Edwards6:13

       Yes.

   13. MRMel Robbins6:14

       ... if you display charisma, other people are left with the impression that they can trust you and that they can count on you. Is that right?

   14. VEVanessa Van Edwards6:24

       Yes. That is exactly right. And the funny th- the hard part about this is, you can be the warmest, most competent person in the world, but if you don't show those signals, the world does not believe you. And this comes from amazing research out of Princeton University, which found that under-signaling, so not signaling enough, and this is what happens I think with very smart people. So most of my students are h- off the charts intelligence, high achievers, and they think, "Oh, my smarts will speak for me." Right? "I, I'm really smart. I can make it through anything. I'm super prepared. I have great answers." And the problem is, they under-signal the warmth and competence cues. And what Dr. Fiske found, the creator of this research, she found that without enough warmth, people do not believe your competence. So the problem with smart people is they think their smarts work for them, but if they're not using the right signals, the world literally cannot believe them.

   15. MRMel Robbins7:16

       Wow. That's so... So is this why charisma matters?

   16. VEVanessa Van Edwards7:22

       So I think of charisma like a lubricant, right? So when we're in social interac-

   17. MRMel Robbins7:26

       That's sexy. (laughs)

   18. VEVanessa Van Edwards7:28

       (laughs) A social lubricant.

   19. MRMel Robbins7:29

       That is not exactly the word I was, uh, that I thought or the metaphor I thought you were gonna use. Okay. So charisma-

   20. VEVanessa Van Edwards7:36

       But it, it makes everything smooth.

   21. MRMel Robbins7:37

       ... is a social lubricant, everybody.

   22. VEVanessa Van Edwards7:39

       Yeah.

   23. MRMel Robbins7:39

       Okay?

   24. VEVanessa Van Edwards7:40

       It makes it smooth, you know? It makes it smooth, because listen, my interactions, my social interactions before I learned this science were, like, the opposite of smooth. They were crunchy, like, not in a good way, right? Like-

   25. MRMel Robbins7:51

       Okay. So you said you were awkward. Give us an example.

   26. VEVanessa Van Edwards7:53

       I'm... (laughs)

   27. MRMel Robbins7:53

       Come on, Vanessa.

   28. VEVanessa Van Edwards7:55

       I'm a recov- I'm a recovering awkward person. So awkwardness, let's talk about... Awkwardness is one of my favorite topics. Awkwardness dresses up in different ways. So my awkwardness... And everyone has a different thing, so I'm curious to know if you have any awkwardness, how it dresses up. Some people, they feel awkward because of fear, their fear of b- being rejected, fear of being criticized, fear of saying something silly or sounding stupid. And so their awkwardness will dress up as shutting down. So for me, my awkwardness, I'm an over-thinker. I'm-

   29. MRMel Robbins8:21

       Hm.

   30. VEVanessa Van Edwards8:21

       ... the person who I get in bed at the end of the night, and I literally rethink every conversation I've had the whole day. (laughs) Right? Or, like, I, I overanalyze my answers before I even say anything-
4. 26:34 – 31:35

   Tool: How to figure how charismatic you are

   1. MRMel Robbins26:34

      out how charismatic we are?

   2. VEVanessa Van Edwards26:36

      Okay.

   3. MRMel Robbins26:36

      What do we do, Vanessa?

   4. VEVanessa Van Edwards26:38

      Okay. All right. So first, we're the first kind of diagnostic that I talked about was just which one sounds more like you. That's where we start, right? So where do you think you fall? You higher in warmth, higher in competence? Do you have a balance or are you under-signaling, right? Do you shut down and not signal enough?

   5. MRMel Robbins26:52

      Okay.

   6. VEVanessa Van Edwards26:52

      The next thing you can do is you can actually do our diagnostic. It's totally free, and I love this because there's two ways that you want to, I want you to do this. You can take this as many times as you want. The whole point, the reason I put it up from the research is because I want people to be able to take a diagnostic, see how they come across. So they're going to be very simple questions like-

   7. MRMel Robbins27:07

      Does that mean a test?

   8. VEVanessa Van Edwards27:09

      Yes. It's a test.

   9. MRMel Robbins27:09

      Okay.

   10. VEVanessa Van Edwards27:10

       Really simple test. Scienceofpeople.com/charisma.

   11. MRMel Robbins27:12

       Wait, hold on. What's it called? What, what, what is, what is the URL?

   12. VEVanessa Van Edwards27:16

       Scienceofpeople.com/charisma.

   13. MRMel Robbins27:19

       Scienceofpeople.com/charisma.

   14. VEVanessa Van Edwards27:22

       /charisma.

   15. MRMel Robbins27:23

       Wait, is that the New York Times Science of People?

   16. VEVanessa Van Edwards27:26

       No, just my Science of People.

   17. MRMel Robbins27:27

       Oh, that's your site. Okay. Scienceofpeople.com/charisma. We will put that in the show notes. So you can take this test-

   18. VEVanessa Van Edwards27:33

       As many times as you want. And so first I want you to take it as you, and we're going to take it as you, and I want you to take it not on your ideal self, your real self. Okay?

   19. MRMel Robbins27:43

       Okay.

   20. VEVanessa Van Edwards27:44

       So on a, on a normal day, I want you to screenshot your results. Then what I want you to do is I want you to do a 360 review. I want you to send the quiz to a partner, a friend, a colleague, and ask them to take it as you. This is the key because it's going to show you how other people see you.

   21. MRMel Robbins28:05

       Mm-hmm.

   22. VEVanessa Van Edwards28:05

       And have them screenshot the results, and then go to dinner and get a lot of wine because it'll be a great conversation.

   23. MRMel Robbins28:13

       (laughs) So do you find that most people have no idea how they're showing up with other people?

   24. VEVanessa Van Edwards28:20

       You are right. Most of us have a blind spot. We think, we hope, we think of ourselves as our ideal selves. And there are days, of course, we are a little closer to that sweet spot of warmth and competence. But what's really key, what we find is that not only are people giving them different results, but they even might even have different results for home and work. So they're showing up as two selves, and that's a very important thing to know about yourself. If you're going to work and you're dreading it, you're burnt out, you're drained, it could be that you are not honoring who you truly are because you're either under-signaling competence or under-signaling warmth, or trying to fake it till we make it. I have a little problem with that phrase. I don't love that phrase-

   25. MRMel Robbins29:01

       I get it.

   26. VEVanessa Van Edwards29:01

       ... because I think that the problem is if you're going to fake warmth, it's exhausting, right? And so this is also a way to sort of get a very quick snapshot in how are people perceiving you and is it what you think you're showing?

   27. MRMel Robbins29:15

       Um, you also have a suggestion that we record our Zoom calls in order to read how charismatic we are. That sounds horrible.

   28. VEVanessa Van Edwards29:25

       It's horrible. I'm not going to lie. It is horrible. And not only do I want you to record a Zoom call, I want you to record a Zoom call that you worked hard on, presentation, an important client meeting, a call, and then I want you to code it. So when we talk about-

   29. MRMel Robbins29:38

       What does code it mean?

   30. VEVanessa Van Edwards29:40

       Okay. So when we talk about cue- cues, so cues are the social signals humans send to each other. Okay? There are four different modes of cues. Verbal, the one we talk about the most, so our words. This is what we, most of us think about all the time. We want to prepare the perfect answer, share the perfect presentation. We practice our stories. So verbal is only one mode of cues. Second is non-verbal, our body language, our gestures, our facial expressions. The third, the most important one that's overlooked, is voice tone, our vocal power, our volume, our pace, our cadence, our tone.... and the last smallest one is ornaments. The jewelry we wear, what's behind us in our background, uh, the h- the color of our nails, how we wear our hair, our glasses. Those are the ornaments. What I want you to do is I want you to code yourself for every cue that you're showing. Everything from how many gestures you're using to what your facial expressions are doing, to your movement, to your fidgeting, to your vocal power, to the kinds of words you're using. That's also gonna give you a snapshot because what we have found in our research is that there are certain very clear signals of warmth, cues of warmth, and cues of competence, and the last one are danger zone cues, cues that are negative. My goal, this is a way that you can see is, how are you signaling warmth and competence? What are you doing with your body and your va- your voice and your face that's making people treat you the way that they're treating you?
5. 31:35 – 50:47

   Key Concept: Competence cues you need to know to be more charismatic

   1. MRMel Robbins31:35

   2. VEVanessa Van Edwards31:35

      All right.

   3. MRMel Robbins31:35

      What is the easiest way to walk through these?

   4. VEVanessa Van Edwards31:39

      All right. Let's go. Let's go.

   5. MRMel Robbins31:40

      Do you wanna go by warmth? Do you wanna go by, like, do you wanna go, like, how do you wanna do this? 'Cause there's a lot to cover.

   6. VEVanessa Van Edwards31:46

      Yeah, so let's do it by time. So, what I wanna do is actually I wanna do the first 10 seconds of your- the- your video, the first minute of your video. That actually helps us break it down 'cause actually the first 10 seconds are really important, the first 10 seconds of you being on camera.

   7. MRMel Robbins31:59

      Really?

   8. VEVanessa Van Edwards32:00

      So, yeah, because, um, it sets you up for the rest of the time. So, if you can nail your first 10 seconds, it makes the next hour easier.

   9. MRMel Robbins32:09

      Wow.

   10. VEVanessa Van Edwards32:10

       And that- that's a relief.

   11. MRMel Robbins32:10

       So, so what do we have to do?

   12. VEVanessa Van Edwards32:12

       Okay.

   13. MRMel Robbins32:12

       What are we doing? So, so, so you're about to tell us-

   14. VEVanessa Van Edwards32:15

       Yes.

   15. MRMel Robbins32:15

       ... in the first 10 seconds-

   16. VEVanessa Van Edwards32:17

       Yes.

   17. MRMel Robbins32:17

       ... of a Zoom meeting-

   18. VEVanessa Van Edwards32:18

       Yes.

   19. MRMel Robbins32:19

       ... you must do this in order to be influential. What do you do?

   20. VEVanessa Van Edwards32:23

       Okay. First 10 seconds, and then you- I want you to code this if you did this on your last video 'cause here's what you should do and here's what we should code. Number one, in the first second you should try to show your hands. I know this sounds really weird-

   21. MRMel Robbins32:36

       What?

   22. VEVanessa Van Edwards32:36

       ... but they use eye tracking studies and they found that one of the first places the brain looks when they're trying to gauge someone's warmth is hands. Why? This is actually a survival mechanism. Back in our caveman days, if we were approached by a stranger caveman, we wanted to see if they were carrying a rock or a spear, right? So this still remains. Something interesting happens, I'll do a little experiment for you. So, if you're watching the video, um, I'm gonna hide my hands. If you're listening, I'm hiding my hands right now.

   23. MRMel Robbins33:02

       Yeah.

   24. VEVanessa Van Edwards33:02

       The moment you can't see someone's hands, so if I were to give this entire interview with my hands behind my back, something interesting would happen in your brain and Mel's brain, which is that your amygdala would begin to activate. And that's because when you can't see someone's hands, you wonder, "What are- what is she holding?

   25. MRMel Robbins33:18

       Hmm.

   26. VEVanessa Van Edwards33:18

       W- what- what's her intention?" And so the longer I keep my hands behind my back, the more distracted you should become with the fact-

   27. MRMel Robbins33:23

       Yes.

   28. VEVanessa Van Edwards33:23

       ... that my hands are behind my back. Y- you want them to come back out, right?

   29. MRMel Robbins33:26

       Yes.

   30. VEVanessa Van Edwards33:27

       Okay, they're back, right?
6. 50:47 – 1:08:22

   Mistakes that introverts make when it comes to body language (and warmth and competence cues you can do instead)

   1. MRMel Robbins50:47

      that introverts make-

   2. VEVanessa Van Edwards50:48

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MRMel Robbins50:48

      ... when it comes to body language?

   4. VEVanessa Van Edwards50:51

      Okay, so, uh, one of the biggest mistakes that we have identified, there's- there's a lot of them, is with our facial expressions. So I think with our facial expressions, we forget how rich our face is in demonstrating emotions or cuing emotions. So a big mistake that I see is people will fake smile. I love smiling but there is nothing worse than fake smiling. I do not believe in toxic positivity. So people have been told, "Smile, smile more," which I think is, like, the worst advice. Right? I'm like, "Smile purposefully, don't smile more." So a really simple mistake is someone will say, "Yeah, I'm so happy to be here."

   5. MRMel Robbins51:30

      (laughs)

   6. VEVanessa Van Edwards51:30

      (laughs) Incongruent. Incongruent. So what will happen is, an introvert really wants to show up as their best self. They come with the best intention. Or someone will hop on a video call and they're trying to be positive and so they'll have a lot of incongruent messages by trying to show warmth with a fake smile. The problem is, Dr. Barbara Wild and her associates, they actually looked at fake smiling. And what they did is they showed people pictures of smiling people, fake smiling people, and neutral people. By the way, just the science of this. A fake smile or a- a real smile reaches all the way up into these upper cheek muscles. So if you were to smile all the way up into your upper cheek muscles, they activate your crow's feet. Right? That's-

   7. MRMel Robbins52:09

      Got it.

   8. VEVanessa Van Edwards52:09

      ... a real smile.

   9. MRMel Robbins52:10

      Yes.

   10. VEVanessa Van Edwards52:10

       Only one in 10 people can consciously activate those muscles. So they really do happen with authentic happiness.

   11. MRMel Robbins52:16

       Okay.

   12. VEVanessa Van Edwards52:17

       Fake smiles are only on the bottom half of the face. So if I was in a face mask, you could not see my fake smile.

   13. MRMel Robbins52:23

       Right, but you could see the smile lines in somebody's eyes.

   14. VEVanessa Van Edwards52:26

       If it's real. If it's real.

   15. MRMel Robbins52:27

       So a real smile, you actually make with your eyes.

   16. VEVanessa Van Edwards52:30

       Exactly. Exactly.

   17. MRMel Robbins52:31

       Okay.

   18. VEVanessa Van Edwards52:32

       Upper cheek muscles/eyes, exactly. So what happens is, what- what happened in this research experiment is she showed people pictures of real smiling people and people caught the happiness. It actually affected their positive mood. They felt happier. When people saw the fake smiles, they caught nothing. In other words, cuing for real happiness actually makes you more contagious. Fake happiness makes you less memorable, nothing happens. So the biggest mistake that will happen with introverts is they want to come across as warm and their only tool in their toolkit is smiling. The problem is there are, the good thing is there are many other warmth cues you can use.

   19. MRMel Robbins53:10

       So what are the other warmth cues that you can use?

   20. VEVanessa Van Edwards53:12

       Okay. So I would, if you're gonna smile, smile for real.

   21. MRMel Robbins53:15

       Okay.

   22. VEVanessa Van Edwards53:16

       And please, please go look at your LinkedIn profile picture. Please, please go look at your dating profile pictures. I either want you neutral, sexy, or smiling all the way. No fake smiles, okay? So make sure (laughs) that smile is all the way up into your eyes, 'cause if you have a fake smile in your LinkedIn profile picture, you are literally signaling fake happiness inauthenticity. So if you don't wanna actually smile, that is totally okay, that's not your only warmth cue. Here are your other warmth options. One, a head nod. So a slow triple nod, one, two, three-

   23. MRMel Robbins53:50

       (laughs)

   24. VEVanessa Van Edwards53:50

       ... is an immediate warmth signal.

   25. MRMel Robbins53:51

       Wow. One, two, three. Okay.

   26. VEVanessa Van Edwards53:53

       Right?

   27. MRMel Robbins53:53

       We can do that, people. Yes.

   28. VEVanessa Van Edwards53:56

       Easy. So and by the way, the funny thing about this, the research found, this just tickles me, that when someone does a slow triple nod, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, the other person speaks 67% longer. (laughs)

   29. MRMel Robbins54:09

       Wow.

   30. VEVanessa Van Edwards54:09

       It's like a non-verbal dot, dot, dot. You're literally saying to someone, "Tell me more. I want to listen. I want to hear you." So a slow triple nod, oh, you know it's so good to see you.
7. 1:08:22 – 1:11:54

   Top 5 signs someone is nervous

   1. MRMel Robbins1:08:22

      five signs that somebody is nervous, based on their body language?

   2. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:08:29

      Yes. So, uh, touching the hands. Uh, touching the face. Touching the stomach. That actually comes out of Cornell University. They actually found that when we're nervous, we touch our, um, stomach, or we clench our stomach, or we touch our face. Um, third is, uh, purposeless gestures. So, wringing the hands, cracking the knuckles, touching the back of the neck. Purp- gestures that have no purpose.

   3. MRMel Robbins1:08:50

      Mm-hmm.

   4. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:08:51

      Um, what's another one? I wanna, I wanna, I'm try- I'm trying to check the research.

   5. MRMel Robbins1:08:55

      Playing with the necklace?

   6. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:08:56

      Playing with your necklace, fidgeting, uh, those are also, also purposeless gestures. Uh, adding unnecessary pauses or awkward pauses. So, someone's in the middle of a talk and they're, they're really trying to ex- explain it, but they're pa- they're pausing as mid-

   7. MRMel Robbins1:09:14

      (laughs)

   8. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:09:14

      ... mid-word or mid, mid-sentence, like that. Uh, was that purpose? 5-

   9. MRMel Robbins1:09:17

      If you call out somebody on a Zoom meeting-

   10. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:09:21

       So-

   11. MRMel Robbins1:09:21

       ... for their nervous tell-

   12. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:09:22

       (laughs)

   13. MRMel Robbins1:09:22

       ... do they get more nervous?

   14. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:09:25

       It depends on how you do it, right? Intention is everything here. So I don't like being like the, "Gotcha," y- uh, that- that's not a good way to interact with cues. However, if I notice, like I'm on a team call and I say, "Hey everyone, we're having a big New Year's launch," and I notice one of my team members shows a cluster of three nervous tells. One, one cue by itself does not usually mean anything, right? Like, for example, we're gonna talk about lying in the last, the last question. One of the top lying red flags is touching the nose. So liars have, um, we have a very specific kind of tissue in our nose, and research has found that when we lie and we're in guilt, it, uh, swells and it causes our nose to itch. So Bill Clinton, during his Monica Lewinsky testimony, when he lied, he touched his nose 26 times.

   15. MRMel Robbins1:10:10

       (gasps) .

   16. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:10:10

       In his truthful testimony, he touched his nose twice. So, this is a, a response that we have. So, um-

   17. MRMel Robbins1:10:16

       Are you lying-

   18. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:10:16

       But-

   19. MRMel Robbins1:10:16

       ... right now? 'Cause you just touched your nose.

   20. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:10:18

       No, I'm showing you.

   21. MRMel Robbins1:10:19

       (laughs)

   22. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:10:19

       I'm showing you because-

   23. MRMel Robbins1:10:20

       Oh, oh wow. Sorry. (laughs)

   24. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:10:21

       ... I, I (laughs) . But also, what if you have allergies? What if you have a cold? So, one cue by itself is never good. Three cues, so if I see someone nose touch, and let's, another, um, uh, like, interesting lying tell is a shame touch, so when we touch the side of our forehead. We often do this when we're very embarrassed, it's an eye-blocking behavior, and I see a lip purse, so we press-

   25. MRMel Robbins1:10:45

       Hmm.

   26. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:10:45

       ... our lips into a hard line, that's three very, very big red flags in a row. That's when I either will pause the Zoom call and I'll be like, "Hey everyone, I just wanna check in. Rob, does this sound doable to you, this launch timeline? Are we good on this? Anything that I should know or we sh- uh, that we're not thinking about?" That's me- not me saying, "Rob, I saw you touch your nose," right? (laughs)

   27. MRMel Robbins1:11:06

       (laughs)

   28. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:11:06

       Which is, like, terrible. But it's me checking in with him. Or, I might afterwards hang up the Zoom call, text him, or call him, or email and say, "Hey, are you good with the launch? I just wanna make sure." So, I believe-

   29. MRMel Robbins1:11:18

       Got it.

   30. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:11:18

       ... in that.
8. 1:11:54 – 1:14:09

   How to display charisma and being more influential on zoom calls

   1. MRMel Robbins1:11:54

      Um, so what are your top tips for displaying charisma and being more influential on a Zoom call?

   2. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:12:08

      Okay. So, on a Zoom call specifically, there's a couple nonverbal cues that translate really well over camera. So one of them you do a lot, which is a lean. So a lean is a universal charisma cue. The reason for this is because when we're trying to understand something better and we activate our five senses, we lean in. We hear something better, we lean in. We wanna see something better, we lean in. We wanna smell something, we lean in. So a lean cue is what you can do on a Zoom call when someone says something super interesting or powerful. We do this in person, but on Zoom, we forget that we have that kind of interpersonal reaction. So if you were to say something, Mel, that was super impactful, I would go, "Really? Wow, that's so interesting." Not even a lot, just a couple of inch- inches. And I wanna do a little experiment here so you can actually feel this. Wherever you are right now, if you're sitting, or standing, or running, or cooking, I want you to lean forward just two inches. Go ahead and try it with me.What research has found is that when you lean forward two inches, it actually activates a pre-action part of your brain. It literally makes you more motivated. And so what can happen is when you lean in, it makes you a better listener. It also is contagious. It tells the other person, "Wow, they like what I'm saying so much, they're literally trying to lean in to activate what I'm saying." So you want to use the lean very purposefully when you hear something good or when you're saying something that you want someone to pay attention to. So, if I, for example, even on this interview, when I'm saying something that I really strongly believe in, I will bold it by adding a leans. I'll say, "This is one of the most important things I could share today." That is a cue for you, bold, bold listen to this. So leans for you listening and as a speaker.

   3. MRMel Robbins1:13:56

      I love that.

   4. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:13:57

      Easy.

   5. MRMel Robbins1:13:58

      Is there any phrase or something that you suggest, particularly somebody who's shy or introverted, to say or do during a

9. 1:14:09 – 1:21:30

   Key Concept: Verbal cues introverts can do to be more influential

   1. MRMel Robbins1:14:09

      virtual meeting to be more influential?

   2. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:14:11

      Ah, okay. We didn't even talk about w- verb, w- verbs. We didn't even talk about words. So, words are an incredibly important aspect of our charisma that we also need to address, right? So, for, for verbal power, what you wanna do, especially for my introverts, and especially on a video call, is use warmth verbal cues. We actually did a study, uh, with Dr. Paul Zak, Dr. Paul Zak is a big oxytocin researcher, he's incredible, is one of my good friends, where I wanted to know during the pandemic if saying warm words could stimulate connection. So in other words, I'm on a video call. If we were in person, Mel, you and I would be hugging, we'd h- you know, high five, we, we'd have some sort of touch. I wanted to know, could you replace that verbally? What we found was we had people wear, he created a software that people wear that measures their skin conductance, their physiology. When I say, "I'm sending a virtual high five, I wish I could give you a digital hug, I'm, uh, giving you a warm wave from here," when I say those words, it actually triggers a physiological response on your skin. So one thing that you can do in the very start of a call or the very end of a call is, "Ah, I wish I could give you a hug. A virtual one will have to do." Or, or, you know, "This has been so lovely talking to you. I just feel so much warmth and I just had such a great time connecting with you." Using warm words, connection, warmth, trust, hug, handshake, they actually trigger a physiological response in the other person. So if you can use those warm words, it is a very easy way to trigger more warmth.

   3. MRMel Robbins1:15:42

      That's fantastic.

   4. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:15:43

      Easy.

   5. MRMel Robbins1:15:44

      Okay. Terrific. What about emails?

   6. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:15:46

      Oh.

   7. MRMel Robbins1:15:46

      How do you display more influence, more charisma in an email? What is the pros? What's the danger zone?

   8. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:15:54

      Okay. So remember, the good news is, by the way, I just want to say a, a big rule here. I'm sharing a lot of cues. Some of these cues you're gonna hear and you're gonna be like, "Oh, that one is so good." Great. Some of the cues I'm gonna say and you're gonna be like, "I don't know about that." That's good. I actually want you to follow your instinct. There are 96 cues in the book. It's like a recipe. There are some ingredients you're not gonna like. And I don't want you to do cues that you don't like. For example, um, one of the cues I teach is a steeple. Right? So it's a s- it's when you just touch your fingers together and you make sort of like a church steeple. If you watch Shark Tank, Kevin O'Leary loves this gesture.

   9. MRMel Robbins1:16:30

      Yes. (laughs)

   10. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:16:31

       Some people love it, some people hate it. If you love it, great. If you don't, discard it. So, what I'm about to share cue-wise, I want you to make sure that you actually like it before you use it. Like, you're able to use different ingredients, like that's-

   11. MRMel Robbins1:16:43

       Right.

   12. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:16:43

       ... actually a good thing. I totally forgot what the question was. Will you repeat it for me? (laughs)

   13. MRMel Robbins1:16:47

       No problem. Actually, let me ask you this one.

   14. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:16:49

       Yeah.

   15. MRMel Robbins1:16:49

       What are the danger zone cues on a virtual meeting?

   16. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:16:54

       Okay.

   17. MRMel Robbins1:16:54

       What should you never do?

   18. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:16:56

       Okay. So, great. Okay. So danger zone cues in a virtual meeting. One, I always, always, always, always want you to front with the camera. So research is very, very clear on this.

   19. MRMel Robbins1:17:07

       He- what does that mean, front with the camera?

   20. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:17:09

       Fronting. Okay. So when we are aligned on parallel lines with someone, our brain likes it. So fronting is when I angle my toes, my torso, and my top towards the camera. Research has found that if I were to give the entire interview with one shoulder angled back and my toes angled out, it would actually make it hard for you to believe me. It would make it really hard for you to open up to me. And so a mistake that I often see on Zoom calls is people will either angle out, or the worst of the worst, they have their camera on their side and they're typing like this. (laughs)

   21. MRMel Robbins1:17:44

       Oh.

   22. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:17:44

       So I w- and s-

   23. MRMel Robbins1:17:45

       Yes. I hate that.

   24. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:17:47

       I hate that.

   25. MRMel Robbins1:17:48

       I'm like, "Just turn the damn camera off."

   26. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:17:50

       Yes. (laughs) I would rather. So one thing I want you to make sure of is your setup. Not only are you a foot and a half away, but you are on parallel lines with the other person. So you're angling your toes, your torso, and your head towards them. This is both on Zoom and in person. Even in person, when someone is kind of angled out and they're trying to talk to you, you can literally feel the disengagement. The reason for this is because our toes are sort of secret windows into the soul. (laughs) That's what I like to call them. Your toes, the way that they're pointed, usually indicate a secret direction that you wanna go. So I have noticed, anecdotally, that when someone is ready to leave a conversation, you know, you're at a networking event or at a holiday party and they have to go to the bathroom or they're kind of done, they will angle their toes towards the exit. (laughs)

   27. MRMel Robbins1:18:35

       Wow.

   28. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:18:36

       And that is because their body is like, "We gotta go. We wanna go." So if I'm angled away from you with my toes angled towards the exit, you're subconsciously picking up on the fact that part of me is left the conversation.

   29. MRMel Robbins1:18:49

       (laughs) You know what I'm realizing? That's stage one of me trying to get my husband, Chris, to leave a party.

   30. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:18:56

       Exactly.

Episode duration: 1:40:18