Repairing a Broken Relationship: It’s Not Too Late | The Mel Robbins Podcast

Mel Robbins 0:03 If there was ever a podcast episode to listen to, I think it's this one because I think the research is wrong. I think that at some point, this is gonna impact all of us. What am I talking about? I'm talking about estrangement. Somebody cuts you out of their life intentionally, and it is on the rise. Since it's so misunderstood, I wanted to track down the world's leading expert on estrangement, and he is here. Today, you and I are gonna have a really important conversation about a topic that is profoundly misunderstood, and it is on the rise. In fact, researchers call this a silent epidemic. What am I talking about? I'm talking about estrangement. Estrangement is when somebody cuts you out of their life intentionally, and it is on the rise. Whether you've experienced this in your friendships or in your family or whether you have not, this is a topic that is profoundly misunderstood. And the research also shows that 50% of us will experience estrangement in our families. In fact, in the last month, two fans of the Mel Robin podcast have bumped into me in real life. And when I asked them, "What would you want me to do a podcast episode on?" both of them said, "Could you please do something about estrangement?" The one lady hadn't talked to her sister in five years. The sister had just cut her out. The other one was a man who was heartbroken over the fact that he and his wife hadn't spoken to their daughter in seven years. In fact, they didn't even know where she lived. This

Mel Robbins 1:42 is more common than you would think. And so I thought, "I'm gonna do something about this." This is not happening in my immediate family and I hope it never does, but estrangement is present in my extended family. And I also have had an experience where my two closest friends, one of them stopped talking to the other one for three years, and I didn't know what to do. And so I thought, "Here's what we're gonna do." Since this is on a rise, since it's so misunderstood, I wanted to track down the world's leading expert on estrangement, and he is here. He is a practicing psychologist in San Francisco who has written four books. His research on adult estrangement has also been published in academic journals, and he is here to help us understand this topic. Why it happens? Why is it on the rise? What are the mistakes and the situations that we are in that typically lead to estrangement? And more importantly, let's talk reconciliation. What are the mistakes that people make when they're desperate to reconcile with somebody? And what are the step-by-step things that you should do that are counterintuitive based on the research in order to make that reconciliation happen? If there was ever a podcast episode to listen to, I think it's this one because I think the research is wrong. I personally believe that this is impacting way more than half of us. I think that

Mel Robbins 3:13 at some point, this is gonna impact all of us. And so consider this conversation today a toolkit for you to use, for you to share, to help you understand this, to help you avoid it, and God forbid it does happen, to empower you to take the steps to reconcile if that's what you wanna do. All right, Dr. Goleman, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 3:38 Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Mel Robbins 3:40 Let's just start at the most basic level, and can you define for all of us what is estrangement?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 3:49 I mean, people define it in different ways. That's part of the problem with, um, the research that's been done. The way that I think of it is it's a, a cutoff in a relationship, uh, that may be temporary, may be permanent, but where it's not just people getting out of touch. It's where one person typ- 'cause typically it's one person wants it and one person doesn't. More typically, it's initiated by the adult child 'cause that's my area of specialization is with parent/adult child estrangement. Um, and the parent doesn't want it, the adult child does. So I think of it as a, you know, complete cutoff or a near to complete cutoff.

Mel Robbins 4:25 How common is estrangement?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 4:28 Well, apparently it's very common, uh, and getting more common all the time. A recent study out of Ohio State said that 26% of fathers are estranged from their kids. The same studies found 6% of mothers are, but other studies have found that closer to 10 to 11% of mothers are estranged from their kids. But if you expand it out away from just the parent/adult child to family members in general, then, um, something like 27% of families in the US are estranged from a family member. So it's, it's incredibly common and I think growing more common all the time.

Mel Robbins 5:01 Why do you think it's growing more common?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 5:04 I think it's a variety of reasons. I think w- our, uh, culture is becoming more identity-focused, more tribalistic, um, where, um, where, you know, we have kind of in-group, out-group ideas, and that no longer includes family. I think the notion of family has radically changed where, say prior to the, you know, 1960s or so, there was the idea of honor thy mother and thy father, respect thy elders, family's forever. And that's really been turned on its head, where increasingly the idea is that, um, your chosen family, the family who's you, who you make it, um, that people don't owe their parents anything, that the most important thing is the preservation of my happiness, my well-being, my mental health. So there's always been estrangements, but never before have they been based on the idea that it's actually good for one's mental health or it's even an act of existential courage to cut off a, a parent or a family member.Um, and it's tied to what the sociologist Anthony Giddens talks about is the evolution from role to self, you know. Whereas it used to be there were very clear ideas prior to the 20th century, you know, arguably before that. But, um, where, where kind of the ideas about what it takes to be a member of a family was fairly clearly defined, being a good parent, being a good child, et cetera, being a good adult child. Um, and then it changed much more towards an orientation toward self. So what Giddens talks about is that we've had the evolution of what he calls the pure relationship, where relationships are now purely constituted on the basis of whether or not that relationship is aligned with that person's ideals, their goals or aspirations for happiness, et cetera. And if they're not, then, then the relationship is viewed as being problematic and corruptive and not worth pursuing.

Mel Robbins 6:54 You see it all over social media.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 6:55 Oh.

Mel Robbins 6:55 Like if you look at, like, all of the... Like, just put a post up and you're like, "Oh, it said cut 'em off, toxic behavior."

Dr. Joshua Coleman 7:02 (laughs) Exactly right.

Mel Robbins 7:02 And what do you want us to know before we even jump into this topic of an intentional cutting off of a relationship with a family member or a friend? What do you want us to know about the reality of relationships, the dimensional reality? What is true about relationships that last and what relationships are meant to be about?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 7:29 Yeah. No, it's a good question, and there's probably no really easy answer to that. The way I think about it is both at the community level and at the individual level. I mean, at the community level, I feel like we as a culture are really suffering. We have high rates of mental illness. We have high rates of depression in particular, loneliness, social isolation, increasing atomization, increasing tribal views. So we're really kind of coming apart at the seams. It really feels like we're living at, at a time when our culture is falling apart. So at the community level, I think that family is an important part of that aspect and that people should do whatever they can to prioritize family and family relationships. That said, I don't believe that people have to do it at any cost. There are family members who are very destructive or are very hurtful, who aren't willing to make amends, to take responsibility. I mean, most of the people that I work with are the parents, and my whole method is around that you have to take responsibility for the things that have caused your child to turn away from you. And if you don't feel like you understand, then you have to pursue empathy and understanding and compassion. Um, but from the adult child's perspective, I would like to see more compassion for parents, that parents typically do do the best that they could do given what their own social, economic, temperamental resources were, their own childhood traumas, et cetera. Um, and they deserve a certain period of time of being able to work on the relationship and to, um, to have a hearing and, you know, that kind of thing. So, so that's kind of the general way that I would think about that.

Mel Robbins 9:05 So Dr. Coleman, I'm fascinated with how you got into the work of counseling and supporting parents who are estranged from adult children. Can you tell us a little bit about how you came to do this?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 9:21 Sure. I mean, um, I had, uh... I was married and divorced in my 20s and have a fully grown daughter who I'm very close to. Uh, but there was a period of time in her early 20s when she cut off contact for several years in large response to my becoming remarried and having children in my second and... which was my current marriage some 30 plus years. And there were many ways that she felt displaced by that, hurt by it. Not so much the divorce because she was so young, but just by all the kind of things that can happen with divorce and remarriage and being of a blended family and the like. And at the time, there was nothing really written to advise me or help me. I was in therapy at the time trying to get help and the advice I got was terrible as it often is. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 10:03 What was the advice that you were getting?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 10:05 Well, the advice was just kind of like, you know, "You need to remind her of all the things that you've done for her and correct her memories and just show up at her place and kind of, you know, demand that she see you," and all those things are... You know, they just... None of them really caused her to feel understood

Dr. Joshua Coleman 10:22 or cared about or, you know, like I had any degree of compassion for what her experience was. So it really wasn't until I just learned how to stop explaining, stop defending, stop blaming, and respect where she was coming from that things began to turn. But during that time of estrangement, it was easily the most painful, awful, disorienting thing I've ever been through or ever hope to go through again. You know, the idea that... I don't know if you have children, Amy, but, uh, you know, the idea that, that your child would cut you, cut you off and you would never, may never see them again is horrifying, painful, and, and terrifying as well. So, so once we did have a reconciliation, um, I thought, well, you know, there's so many people struggling with this. So I wrote my first book on the topic in 2007, When Parents Hurt. And as a result of that, I got a wide following of parents, uh, here and, and in other countries who are dealing with this. On the basis of that, I developed a system of webinars that I still do, a free Q&A every other Monday. Um, and as a result of that, I did a, uh, research study of 1,600 estranged parents that's been published in numerous academic journals and wrote my most recent book, Rules of Estrangement: Why Adult Children Cut Ties and How to Heal the Conflict as a result. And I'm also now, uh, have developed a training program for therapists 'cause there's a huge need which, um, hopefully will be live in the next week or two. People can visit my website if they were interested in training or learning more about that.

Mel Robbins 11:53 So let's talk about that moment of estrangement. What typically drives... And I'll focus on adult children.... since that's your area of expertise, but I'm sure that all these themes apply to friendships where there's estrangement, all kinds of relationships where there is estrangement.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 12:13 I agree.

Mel Robbins 12:13 Um, what are the factors that typically lead someone to say, "That's it, I'm going to cut my parents or somebody else out of my life"?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 12:23 Yeah. There's a number of pathways. Um, if you look at the surveys of adult children, what they typically will say is emotional abuse, physical abuse, uh, neglect, differences in values. Um, those are the most common things reported by the, by the adult child. Uh, but other pathways are divorce and my own eq- you know, obviously my own personal experience, but also statistically in my own research study and in my own clinical practice, 70% of the parents have been through a divorce. So there's a number of ways that divorce can, can increase the risk. One is it may cause the child to blame, of any age, to blame one parent over the other for the divorce. Uh, it could bring in new f- new members, step-siblings, half-siblings, uh, new stepmothers, stepfathers have to compete for emotional and material resources. Uh, it may cause the, the, the child to support one parent over the other even if the parents don't need to be, have that kind of support. Finally, in a highly individualistic culture like ours, it could cause the, the child to see the parents more as kind of individuals with their own strengths and weaknesses and not as a family unit that they're a part of. So, so divorce is a clear risk. Mental illness in the parent, but equally mental illness in the child, in the adult child. Uh, the role of therapy, bad therapists or therapists that just aren't very well-educated in this who assume that every childhood, every problem that surfaces in adulthood has a childhood trauma at the, at the heart of it, which isn't necessarily true, but so many therapists believe that and put the, the adult child on the pathway to estrangement. Um, so-

Mel Robbins 14:01 Hold on a second. I just want to make sure-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 14:02 Yeah?

Mel Robbins 14:02 ... everybody hears that. So you're saying that there are lots of therapists out there that take whatever their client is telling them and run with it.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 14:12 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 14:12 And basically facilitate the linking of childhood issues with, uh, estrangement being something that they should consider?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 14:26 Yeah, consider or do. I mean, I've had numerous, uh, parents show me letters from adult children where they said, "Well, my, my therapist said that you're a narcissist and you can't change, so I'm not willing to do family therapy with you." And, you know, these are often therapists who've never met the parent. They're diagnosing the parent from afar. And more problematic there, they're assuming childhood traumas that may or may not exist. I mean, childhood traumas are a real thing, but, but in this c- day and age, there's the assumption that if somebody has a problem in adulthood, well, you just have, you have to figure out where the childhood trauma lies and then, you know, the doors to identity and happiness and meaning will be open, but that's really problematic. I mean, we're really preoccupied with traumas at this point in our culture and society in a way that's really causing a lot of harm.

Mel Robbins 15:14 So I'm sure that as people are listening, there's a bazillion bells going off. And so I, of course, want to go, "Okay, well, let's talk about childhood trauma and all that stuff," but I want to stay in this topic because I personally believe that everybody listening has had either an experience with estrangement or they know somebody who is really struggling because of estrangement.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 15:44 Yeah. Right.

Mel Robbins 15:44 And I can think even in my own family that when my uncle died, he had never met two of his grandchildren.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 15:52 Wow.

Mel Robbins 15:53 And just how helpless I felt-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 15:56 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 15:56 ... about trying to, like, wishing somehow that could have been repaired-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 16:03 Right.

Mel Robbins 16:04 ... before he died and knowing the heartache and the frustration and the anger and the sadness and the grief-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 16:13 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 16:13 ... that happens when somebody makes a decision to cut you out of their life.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 16:20 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 16:20 And you don't even really know why.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 16:23 Right.

Mel Robbins 16:24 And so is that, like, for a baseline, how do you know if this is a situation of estrangement versus just busyness and, "I don't really like that brother of mine so I don't really call him very often, but he does get the Christmas card from us." Like, what actually, how do you know you're in the boundaries of somebody has deliberately cut you out?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 16:47 Yeah. No, it's a good question. It's not, the answer isn't at all obvious, and I think that

Dr. Joshua Coleman 16:52 a lot of parents today end up getting more estranged because they're wanting more closeness from their adult child than the adult child feels capable or desiring of giving. Um, and so often, you know, um, and there was a, a survey done out of the University of Virginia that said that a majority of parents raising children, um, want and expect to be best friends with their children once they're grown. Um, and, you know, it's great, great work if you can get it, but a lot of adult children don't necessarily want that level of closeness or intimacy. And one of the problems with social media, um, which is, can be another pathway to estrangement, is that it allows a certain kind of intrusion of the parent on the adult child that they might not want. So I think a certain percentage of estrangements occur that wouldn't have occurred in the past because the adult child could just sort of organically become who they are, develop independently, develop their own voice and autonomy without parental influence. Whereas now, parents can reach their child, their adult child anywhere in the world within a matter of seconds. And so I think a certain percentage of adult children feel very crowded today. You know, what's the most-... common complaint I hear in every single estranged adult child's letter is, "You need to respect my boundaries," right? (laughs) So boundaries have become the most important thing, and it's in part because parents... you know, parents raising children over the past four decades are more worried. You know, they're more worried about getting their children through the narrow bottleneck if they can land them in a successful life. They're worried about the world that their children aren't inhabiting. So parents have become more anxious, more guilt-ridden, more intrusive, more surveilling, and that doesn't always work in the child's... the parent-adult child relationship in the long term. Um, so, so to circle back to your question, um, the... It may not start out as an estrangement. It may start out more as kind of normal distance, but as soon as the parent starts to

Dr. Joshua Coleman 18:48 act too victimized or hurt or criticizing the adult child, then they're putting themselves on the path to potential estrangement.

Mel Robbins 18:55 You know, I can personally say there was a period in my, uh, relationship with my mom, who I love deeply-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 19:03 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 19:03 ... and I know she loves me, and as I look through the family history, both on my mom and dad's side, they have, I guess, somewhat kind of complex arm's-length relationships with their family.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 19:16 Uh-huh.

Mel Robbins 19:17 Love, but not hanging out all the time.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 19:19 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 19:19 And part of it is physical distance.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 19:21 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 19:22 And there was a period of time where I ha- was newly married, and I was so enthusiastic about my husband and about his family.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 19:34 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 19:34 And we were living closer to my husband and my husband's family.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 19:39 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 19:39 My parents are in the Midwest. They're on the East Coast, and I know it was an extraordinarily painful period for my mom because she, from a distance, felt like she was losing me to another family.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 19:52 Yeah. It's very common.

Mel Robbins 19:54 And I started to sense that resentment or that fear, and that started-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 20:02 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 20:02 ... to, you know, upset me.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 20:04 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 20:05 And so we got into a period of time where we didn't know how to come together.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 20:11 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 20:11 How... You know, she would say something. I would get offended. I would say-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 20:15 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 20:15 ... something. She would get offended. And it felt-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 20:17 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 20:17 ... like our relationship had all of these landmines that none of... neither one of us wanted there.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 20:24 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 20:25 I just wanted to get back to that, like, I just love you-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 20:29 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 20:29 ... and you just love me, and I could see that without me doing a tremendous amount of great therapy-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 20:38 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 20:39 ... and without us even having almost like a period where we tolerated each other-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 20:46 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 20:46 ... that it could've led to a disastrous and hurtful situation for both of us 'cause we're both very opinionated. We have big emotions.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 20:54 Right.

Mel Robbins 20:54 We're very similar.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 20:55 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 20:55 And we didn't know how to navigate this without hurting or upsetting the other person, and so I think at least when I, when I... And I'm so grateful it didn't end up differently 'cause I feel-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 21:08 Right.

Mel Robbins 21:08 ... closer to her now than I ever have.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 21:12 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:12 But I can see how kind of... It's almost like when people separate before divorce, I always kinda-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 21:21 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:21 ... roll my eyes, and I'm like, "What's the point here?"

Dr. Joshua Coleman 21:24 Sure.

Mel Robbins 21:25 I can see how just going, "I'm not gonna call them. I'm not gonna pick up the phone. I'm not gonna go visit. I'm not gonna do this," that sort of deescalation-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 21:36 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:36 ... can lead to something like this.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 21:39 Yeah, yeah. No, I agree.

Mel Robbins 21:40 Is that what you've seen?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 21:42 Y- yeah. You're saying that the deescalation can actually help, that it can provide-

Mel Robbins 21:46 I think it can help on some hands, but I could see-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 21:48 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 21:49 ... how not talking to somebody-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 21:51 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 21:52 ... for a month-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 21:53 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 21:53 ... or two months or a couple months and just kind of being that sort of cold, uninterested distant, I could see how that would actually throw gasoline on the fire because-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 22:07 Oh, yeah.

Mel Robbins 22:08 ... the emotions actually build.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 22:10 Right.

Mel Robbins 22:10 And then every interaction is so high-stakes.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 22:14 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 22:16 It's a recipe for disaster.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 22:18 Right. Yeah, no. I think you're, you're putting your finger on a couple of, of important things. When I was talking about the pathways to estrangement, I've... I didn't list one of the most common pathways, and that's when the child, um,

Dr. Joshua Coleman 22:32 marries, um, the adult child marries, and if there's conflict between the son-in-law, uh, or daughter-in-law and the parents... Sometimes, the son-in-law or daughter-in-law basically says to... says to their spouse, um, "Choose me or them. You can't have both," and men in particular are vulnerable to that. Um, but you're also putting your finger on the fact that the parents can commonly feel like, "Well, how come the other parents get to spend more time with you or the grandkids?" And, and in some ways, sons are more at risk. The, the parents of sons are more at risk of that because of what sociologists refer to as the matrilineal advantage, which means statistically daughters are more likely to kind of prioritize their own family over, over, you know, sons, et cetera. Um, but that is a really common source of estrangement or beginning conflict, and to your point that once conflict starts, it can quickly, uh, spiral out of, out of control and lead to an estrangement. And for parents, you know, I think most parents feel kind of panicky when the adult child starts to pull back and be more distant, become less available, and then that causes what John Gottman refers to as the pursuer-distancer dy- dynamic where the person-

Mel Robbins 23:42 What is it called?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 23:43 Uh, he talks about it from a marital research perspective, the pursuer-distancer dynamic, and it's associated with a high risk of divorce where one partner...... more typically the wife is pursuing the other for more contact, more intimacy, more communication. The other person, more typically the husband, pulls back more, becomes more shut down. And over time, that, that dynamic is more rigidified and harder to change until the couple splits up. Well, a similar thing I observe with p- par- parents and adult children around estrangement where the parent starts to pursue more and more and more, "Why aren't you calling me?" Blah, blah, blah. You know, and then they're off to the races.

Mel Robbins 24:21 You know, uh, what I, one of the reasons why I was so excited to talk to you is because you're my favorite kind of expert. You not only have all the credentials, but you have the lived experience.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 24:30 Mm-hmm. Thank you.

Mel Robbins 24:31 What are the big mistakes that you see people who want to reconcile with somebody who's cut them off, what are the big mistakes that people make or that you made?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 24:44 Yeah.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 24:45 Um, there, uh, you know, I have a whole webinar on this call, the five most common mistakes of estranged parents, and, um, I'm sure I made all of them. Um, the first one is thinking that it should be fair. You know, as soon as you think it should be fair, then you're going to, first of all, you're going to feel more victimized by your child, which is not a good place to be both as a person, but also in terms of how you communicate. It's gonna make you feel more, more angry and resentful and that's gonna come out. Um, the idea that it should be fair is the idea like, "Well, I was a much better parent than my own was. Think of all the sacrifices I made. You know, I was there for this kid in so many ways." Um, but it, you know, from the parent's perspective, it, it isn't fair. It's much more about practically what works and what doesn't work, and that relates to the second common mistake and that is using guilt, thinking that you're gonna motivate your child through guilt. Um, I'm currently writing an article called The Last Jewish Mother, because I'm, I'm Jewish and, you know, it is sort of a trope into the culture about that Jewish mothers can kind of, you know, guilt trip their kids into contact. Um, you know the joke, like, how do you get a Jewish mother to change the light bulb? "Don't worry, I'll just sit here in the dark." You know? So the idea, it's sort of an affectionate trope that, that, um, you know, that p- mothers could use guilt to motivate their children. But I call it the last Jewish mother because parents can no longer do that. Guilt is now considered a toxic, coercive, corruptible, a force. It's an, it's antithetical to the idea that the adult child doesn't owe the parent anything and shouldn't feel, feel guilt. So using guilt is not going to work. Uh, including statements like how miserable the, the adult child is making the parent feel through the estrangement. Third common mistake, and I see therapists enabling this mistake, is returning fire with fire. The adult child says something angry or assertive or critical to the parent, you know, fires right back at them and tells them they're ungrateful and challenges them and, um, you know, and says, "You can't talk to me that way. You need to respect me." And, you know, it may be true that they want respect, but returning fire with fire never works. The fourth is assuming that it's all about the parent, uh, which goes to what you and I were talking about-

Mel Robbins 27:00 Mm.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 27:01 ... before about there may be not as much contact because the adult child's more preoccupied with their own life, their own children, their own career, their own social lives. You know, what I tell parents is, look, when we have adult children and grandchildren, they're front and center of our minds, our heart, our consciousness. But for our adult children, that's not the same. The, w- we're not at the front of their, their hearts and minds and consciousness. And I know that was true with my own parents as well when they were alive w- and like you, I was very close to them, uh, to my parents. So I just knew that when I called my parents or visited them that, um, I mean, I liked both, but I knew it meant much more to them than it did to me.

Mel Robbins 27:39 Mm.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 27:39 So really if my adult children call me or visit me, I know it means more to me than it does to them. So the mistake is sort of not knowing, assuming that every bit of distance or non-responsiveness or not returning that text right away or that email or whatever is personal because once you make it personal, then you are on the pathway to estrangement. The final mistake is not knowing, uh, is failing to recognize how long estrangement takes to reconcile, that it's a marathon, it's not a sprint. And that even if you're taking the best next steps, that it still may be a matter of months or even years before you can get your child to, to respond. So, um, those are the most common mistakes that I, that I see. Well, let, let me add one more, um, and that is one of the key parts of my strategy with parents is helping them write an amends letter where they take responsibility, where they're not defensive, they don't explain, uh, they find the kernel if not the bushel of truth in their children's complaints. And a common mistake I see with letters is that they say, "Well, if I did anything wrong."

Mel Robbins 28:45 (laughs)

Dr. Joshua Coleman 28:46 Or, you know, you know, "I'm sorry you feel that way." Or those kind of things which aren't really taking responsibility and not really facing the hard cold truth about the mistakes that they made because as parents, we all make them. So, but it's a hard thing to do. I mean, I didn't love doing it myself when I, when I did it, but it is, it is the most effective way to potentially bridge the distance between a parent and an adult child.

Mel Robbins 29:08 What I would love to do is go mistake by mistake-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 29:13 Okay.

Mel Robbins 29:13 ... and unpack it a little bit more so that we can understand how that mistake that we make when we're trying to make amends or trying to make contact with somebody who has cut us off, how it backfires-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 29:25 Yeah. Sure.

Mel Robbins 29:25 ... and what it feels like for the person that has cut you off 'cause I think that would be helpful.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 29:30 Sure.

Mel Robbins 29:30 The first one was to, it was to think it's th- that things should be fair.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 29:35 Right.

Mel Robbins 29:36 So why is that a mistake and how does, if you think should, things should be fair, what do parents do that backfires?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 29:45 You know, one of the things that I te- teach parents particularly who have been in a longer term of estrangement is the principle of radical acceptance.

Mel Robbins 29:52 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 29:53 And part of radical acceptance is that saying that it is what it is. You know, I can take all the best steps, but, um, I, I may not be able to do any better.And we think that things should be fair, we're really injecting a certain amount of resentment and bitterness and unhappiness into the equation. So, it is just isn't very helpful to one's mental health, uh, regardless of reconciliation to sort of say, "Well this isn't fair. I shouldn't be treated like this. I was such a good parent. I was a better parent, you know, than my own parents were. They're not, they're not acknowledging all the good things that I did. They're rewriting history." I mean, all those things may be true, but tormenting yourself with that, that kind of feeling is just going to make you miserable. But it's also going to make you more resentful to your adult child. From your adult child's perspective, it's completely fair. They wouldn't be doing it unless they thought it was fair. So, one of the things I tell parents to do when they write an amends letter, is to start by saying, "I know you wouldn't do this unless you felt like it was the healthiest thing for you to do."

Mel Robbins 30:53 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 30:53 Because that's how it feels to the adult child. And the parent has to get on the same page as the adult child. If this parent comes across as being defensive or blaming or not willing to take responsibility, game over, because the adult child's going to go, "Screw that. I'm not going to have a relationship with you."

Mel Robbins 31:07 This is why I did it in the wor- in the first place.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 31:09 Exactly. That's right, that's right. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 31:12 And I think resentment is the powerful word there, because in this feeling that things should be fair.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 31:21 Right.

Mel Robbins 31:23 What you're not saying is, "I resent the fact that I gave you fucking everything."

Dr. Joshua Coleman 31:27 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 31:28 And this is what you're doing to me?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 31:30 Right, exactly.

Mel Robbins 31:31 And I see this even in myself.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 31:33 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 31:33 We were, just yesterday, uh, after school, quickly trying to find a black suit for my son for prom this weekend.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 31:43 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 31:44 And we went to three different places. Thankfully, we found something.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 31:49 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 31:49 And I turned to him and I said, "Hey, can you give me a lift home?"

Dr. Joshua Coleman 31:55 Right.

Mel Robbins 31:55 Before practice. And he said, "Oh, Mom, I, I, I, I'm going to, it's going to make me late for practice." And I, I caught the words before they came after my mouth, out of my mouth, but what I almost said to him, Dr. Coleman, was, "Are you fucking kidding me?"

Dr. Joshua Coleman 32:13 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 32:13 "I just spent an hour and a half with you and spent hundreds of dollars on a suit to support you?"

Dr. Joshua Coleman 32:19 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 32:19 "You can't drive me 10 measly minutes home?"

Dr. Joshua Coleman 32:23 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 32:23 And then I thought for a second, not because I was talking to you today, but I was like, vsh.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 32:27 Yeah. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 32:28 How is shaming or being resentful or kind of like, like that is a example of how I think I'm trying not to be transactional.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 32:40 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 32:40 I will love you when. If I buy you shit, you need to do something for me. But it's hard.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 32:45 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 32:45 And so I can see how that opinion that I'm doing this for you, so it has to be fair-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 32:51 Right.

Mel Robbins 32:51 ... on my terms.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 32:53 Right.

Mel Robbins 32:53 On my terms. Because I could step into his shoes, which is what you basically ask your clients to do, to get-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 33:00 Right.

Mel Robbins 33:00 ... from the one side of the table to putting your arm around your child and trying to see it from their point of view.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 33:06 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 33:07 I basically took him shopping because that was the window that was convenient for me.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 33:12 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 33:12 And so from his side, he was also accommodating me, and he didn't want to be late, which I can understand-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 33:19 Right.

Mel Robbins 33:19 ... based on values.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 33:20 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 33:20 So, I love that because I think the resentment piece is what somebody who cuts you off picks up on, or this transactional thing.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 33:29 Oh, for sure.

Mel Robbins 33:29 Talk about guilt for a minute. So, is guilt part, isn't guilt kind of similar to the, um, it should be fair so you should be doing that? It's kind of part of this whole thing?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 33:42 It is, yeah. And it just doesn't work anymore. It, you know, it works in, there's plenty of cultures where it still works. You know, there's plenty of cultures where, um,

Dr. Joshua Coleman 33:51 you know, the, the notion of filial obligation, duty to one's parents, et cetera, is still very active, particularly in Confucian and other Asian cultures. Um, and in Latin American cultures, there's the notion of familism, uh, you know, so there's, there, there's the bond of the family that's considered a very important value. Um, so the, in those kinds of cultures, there's a, there's more of a place for a parent to kind of come at it from a perspective of like, "Look, I'm your mother," or, "I'm your, your father. This is what kids should do." And it's, it's more tolerated and accepted because the adult child has embraced those values. But in, in the rest of American culture, North American culture, um, there's the idea that adult children don't owe their parents anything and that guilt is a excessive, coercive, corruptive demand, uh, and so if the parent makes the child feel bad, then somehow they're now putting themselves in the role of being a toxic, you know, narcissistic, uh, person who the adult child should cut off in order to preserve their own mental health.

Mel Robbins 34:53 So let's put everybody kind of in a therapy session. You're with a family, you're with parents or a parent who has been estranged from a child or another family member.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 35:06 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 35:06 Where do you start with them?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 35:09 Well, one of the things I tell parents, because most typically it's the, the parent who wants the therapy and the adult child is being kind of coaxed into it. Either I'm reaching out to them to see if they'll do it or I'm helping the parent, uh, reach out to them in a way that will make it more likely that the adult child would consider doing the family therapy. But what I explain to both parent and adult child, um, particularly parents, is that reconciliation therapy is not marital therapy. Marital therapy, you both equally come in with equal claims what the marriage can look like, negotiate, you compromise, you meet somewhere in the middle. Reconciliation therapy with an adult child is much more on the adult child's terms because they've already shown that they're willing to walk, um, and that from their perspective, they're not in the same kind of pain that the, that the parent is. Now, they may have been in pain that caused them to cut off the parent, particularly if it was a, an abusive parent, et cetera, there were childhood traumas, and childhood traumas do exist, and I'm not-... not at all saying that they're a myth. Um, I am saying that they're, we overstate them. But, but, there's certainly plenty of kids who have had real childhood traumas. Um, and so they feel a certain sense of endangerment in getting into the room with the parent, uh, to consider reconciliation, because they've cons- they feel like estrangement is a way to protect themselves and their mental health. So, I make it clear to them as well that I have your back, that, that this is really about helping your parent learn how to become more empathic, to become more respectful of your boundaries, to learn more, to take more responsibility for the ways that they were hurtful to you, and to have a deeper understanding of why you felt like an estrangement was in your best interest. And I tell the parent that as well, because I don't want them to like get into the therapy session and then feel kind of, you know, broadsided by me. I will say to them, "If I side with anybody in this session, it's going to be with your adult child." Uh, because first of all, it's the only way to keep them in the room, but second of all, it's just how I think about these dynamics. I think that even parents who did the best they could, could still be really hurtful. Um, and even if it's something that might not have felt hurtful to some other family member, if it felt hurtful to th- that adult child, it's still incumbent on us as parents to take the lead, to take the high road, to show leadership, you know, and to, to make, to make the, um, the moves in the right, right direction towards healing. So, my experience is that if we can get past that initial phase of therapy where the parent can do a good job in empathizing and taking responsibility and accepting the child's terms, then we can kinda proceed to a, a new phase where the parent can talk more about what a good relationship would feel like to them. And, and the adult child at that point is more willing, uh, uh, to consider that. They're not necessarily guaranteed to consider it, but they're in a much better place if they know that there are other boundaries and limits can be accepted and adopted.

Mel Robbins 37:53 Can you and have you achieved reconciliation with people when the person that cut them out of their lives won't come to reconciliation therapy?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 38:05 Sure. I mean, sometimes it's just as simple as a, a really good amends letter. And a really good amends letter can work miracles. That said, they don't always work. There's really nothing I can tell every parent that, "Gee, if you only just do Coleman's five steps towards reconciliation." 'Cause some adult children, they're just not ready. They're too mad or hurt. They're too influenced by the other parent after a divorce. They're too influenced by their therapist, by who they're married to. They may have a need to feel separate from the

Dr. Joshua Coleman 38:34 parent because they felt too close to them and don't have a way to feel separate from the parent than to, than to stay estranged. So, these, these strategies don't always work, but, but, um, but, but they often work. And when they do work, it's because the parent's doing the right thing.

Mel Robbins 38:51 Let's talk about the amends letter and the five steps to reconciliation. And again, whether it's an adult child or it's a sibling or it is, um, a friend or your parent is the one that peaced out and you don't know why.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 39:09 Yeah, it has happened.

Mel Robbins 39:09 I can't tell you... I have sat in the last month next to people on planes who have disclosed to me, one man in particular said, "I'm a fan of your podcast. Could you please do something about estrangement?"

Dr. Joshua Coleman 39:22 Oh, yeah.

Mel Robbins 39:22 And in his case, it was a daughter with mental health issues-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 39:27 Common.

Mel Robbins 39:27 ... who they have not talked to in seven years.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 39:29 Common.

Mel Robbins 39:30 But that's something that I keep thinking about, which is I know a lot of people that are dealing with this.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 39:39 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 39:40 And so, I wanted to do an episode because this is way more common than I think the studies even indicate.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 39:46 I totally agree with you.

Mel Robbins 39:47 And there is a tremendous amount of content, I agree with you, coaching people to cut people out, to have boundaries, which are important.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 39:59 Sure.

Mel Robbins 39:59 Um, we may differ a little bit in terms of the influence of childhood trauma on adult behavior. I think our difference probably has more to do with, um, how much people lean on it versus taking responsibility for healing it.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 40:14 Sure.

Mel Robbins 40:16 But when you get to that point where you feel like I don't have the ability to have this person in my life, it's easier to just stop having a relationship with them.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 40:29 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 40:30 What are the five steps for somebody who's on the receiving end of that? 'Cause we don't talk about that a lot. We don't talk a lot about, you know, look, your parents did the best they could.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 40:40 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 40:40 If you look at the way your parents were treated growing up, it explains a lot about what they did.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 40:45 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 40:45 Doesn't, doesn't justify it, Dr. Coleman.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 40:48 No, I agree.

Mel Robbins 40:49 But it certainly explains it. So-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 40:50 Right.

Mel Robbins 40:50 ... what do you... But what are the five steps to reconciliation?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 40:54 Yeah.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 40:55 Well, it, it kind of depends on who the person is who's, who's seeking the help. I, I increasingly am having more adult children contact me who the parents cut them off.

Mel Robbins 41:06 Really?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 41:06 Or they, they're the ones who want help. Yeah. Or even if the parents haven't cut them off, they just want an improved relationship. And I'm, I'm happy that my book speaks to the adult child as well because it was written, uh, for the parent. Um, you know, it typically requires, um, leader... I mean, if, if the adult child contacts me, then I'll reach out to the parent. Um, but I'll also explain to them my method in the same way that if they were the ones who had reached out to me, and I'll s- I'll say that this is, you know, the way that I work, so you need to know that before you sign on to doing any, any sessions with me. Uh, if you imagine that my goal is gonna just be to side with you about how terrible your kid is, it's not gonna happen. Um, so I'm very clear about, about that as a kind of a framework. Um, siblings are more complicated because for parents, it's very easy for me to get a parent, um, to, to take the high road, to take responsibility 'cause they're in so much pain. And there's this kind of a role violation of, you know, if, if a c- a child cuts off a parent, there's a feeling like, well, it is my obligation to heal this. And, you know, I clearly... Even if they feel like they're innocent, they can feel a great, enormous sense of shame that their child feels like they've failed them. So, it's not...There are parents who won't do what I tell them to do. I can't help them if they won't. I tell parents, "This isn't about, you know, right or wrong per se, it's about what, it's kind of about the practicality." I mean, I do think that there is a, uh, a moral basis to, to what I preach. The parents should take the high road that they, you know, their children didn't choose to have them and, therefore, it is incumbent on parents to take the high road and take responsibility and not get pulled into the weeds and not return fire with fire. Um, but, but there's not, like, a third option where parents sometimes want, you know, me to help them see how unfair their kid is being or that kind of thing. That just doesn't work. But anyway, with siblings, it's more tricky because parents are willing to water, walk over hot coals, which is sometimes required. Um, but siblings typically aren't, so somebody has to take, uh, take the high road. Somebody has to be willing to not get pulled into the weeds, to make amends, to probably take more responsibility than they think is fair. I mean, if both siblings are equally motivated to, to heal their relationship, and I have worked with those kind of siblings, that's easier, and then it's more like marriage therapy, you know. Then you can examine dy, the dynamics that shaped them both and get them learn how to communicate more and kind of make the unconscious processes much more conscious. Um, but more typically, one sibling is completely estranged and the other sibling is in pain about the estrangement. So typically, the person who's in the most pain has to show more leadership.

Mel Robbins 43:38 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 43:38 So that's the tricky part.

Mel Robbins 43:39 I love what you said, before we jump into the five steps, I just wanna take a highlighter and make sure that everybody heard something that you said. You said that you, your personal belief is that the parents have a moral obligation to take the higher road because they chose to bring their children into

Mel Robbins 44:02 the world.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 44:03 Correct.

Mel Robbins 44:03 And I think that's an interesting thing to think about because you're right, there has been this rise of individualism-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 44:14 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 44:14 ... and I'm responsible for my happiness, and I don't even know where I was going with it, but I just felt like that's a very profound thing.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 44:25 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 44:25 And I think a lot of times when you get really wrapped up in feeling like things should be fair or your kids owe you something-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 44:34 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 44:34 ... we forget as parents that we're the ones that brought them into the world.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 44:40 Right.

Mel Robbins 44:40 They didn't choose us. We chose and created them.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 44:43 Exactly.

Mel Robbins 44:44 And that doesn't mean they owe us anything. If anything, it means we owe them something.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 44:50 Yeah. Now, I mean, I would argue, I would say two things to that. One is that, that I extend that even to wills. Like, a lot of-

Mel Robbins 44:58 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 44:58 ... the parents in my practice have been treated miserably by their adult children and it wouldn't surprise me. I'm sympathetic to some of these parents who want to cut the kids out of their will, but I say, I say, I don't support parents doing that.

Mel Robbins 45:09 Why?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 45:09 Because-

Mel Robbins 45:10 'Cause it seems like my natural reflection is of course, if you're gonna cut me out of your life, why the fuck would I give you any money?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 45:17 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 45:18 'Cause I've been paying for your ass your whole adult life. Like, why would I continue to do that if you don't even... Like, I, do you see how quickly I could go into that-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 45:27 Oh.

Mel Robbins 45:27 ... I'm an angry, resentful parent?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 45:29 Sure. Yeah. No, I, I'm with-

Mel Robbins 45:31 But why would you say that? Why, why should somebody who's had a kid cut them out actually give them money?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 45:37 Yeah. No, I, I totally understand and I'm sympathetic to any parent. The reason is that we're parents forever and we're parenting long after our parents, long after we're gone. I mean, my parents, you know, are both dead and they still continue, their influence still persists with me, you know, some good ways and some bad ways. But our, our, I don't think our responsibility as parents ends when we die. And as much as I hate the way some of these adult children treat their parents, how contemptuous, how self-righteous, how rejecting they are, how much they've immiserated the life of the parent-

Mel Robbins 46:09 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 46:09 ... I still don't think that that... I still think that the role of parent, uh, continues after the parent dies. And it's also an issue, a question of what do you want your legacy to be? Do you want your legacy to be that you punished your child from the grave? Um, and that doesn't mean parents have to give their child every single penny, but that they might give them what they would give them if they were still alive, A, and B, if there's other siblings, it greatly complicates the sibling relationship if one of the children is cut out of, cut out of the will. Yes, I do think there's a moral obligation to parents. I think there also is a moral obligation to it from adult, adult children that we've lost sight of in this culture. I actually do think that, that, um, adult children owe the parents something. I don't, just don't think that parents can demand that or extract it or guilt trip the child into doing it. But I think as a culture, you know, some of these children who are estranging their parents have been given a quality of life that, you know, their parents wouldn't have dreamed of. So the idea that the children just gets to say, "Well, you didn't go to..." I think some of the reasons that adult children cut off contact aren't because the parent was abusive or neglectful, it's because, you know, their therapist has convinced them that the parent was more res- responsible for how their lives turned out than they were or they, the kid got married to somebody who hates the parent and the kid isn't strong enough to stand up to their-

Mel Robbins 47:28 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 47:28 ... spouse and say, "No, they're my parents, you know. I want us, them, to see them and I want them to see their grandchildren regardless." So, so I think that in the same way that parents have a moral obligation, I think adult children do too. Now, that doesn't mean that they're obligated to stay in contact no matter how abusive or hurtful or critical or shaming, you know, or rejecting the parent is, but they are morally obligated to give the parent a time of due diligence, to repair, to do therapy, to hear them out, to think of the parent in a more three-dimensional way, to while, you know, to view it from the perspective that you were saying earlier that they did the best they could, not in a way that they're just get to be forgiven for no matter how crappy their parent, their parenting was, but that, a, a perspective of compassion rather than contempt.

Mel Robbins 48:13 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 48:13 So I think both sides, there's moral obligations.

Mel Robbins 48:15 That's beautiful.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 48:17 Oh.

Mel Robbins 48:17 It's really beautiful 'cause, you know, I, I know in my own life-And I mentioned about my uncle never meeting his two grandkids, it was heartbreaking-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 48:27 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 48:27 ... that they were at the memorial service.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 48:32 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 48:33 And I- I think you probably see that a lot, that people show up in death-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 48:38 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 48:38 ... because there is something deeper that connects us all and I think that-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 48:42 Right.

Mel Robbins 48:42 ... that's what that speaks to.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 48:45 Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Mel Robbins 48:45 And we have this inability as emotional beings to navigate what feels like endless landmines that-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 48:55 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 48:55 ... can develop between us. And so, what are the five steps that people can take in any situation, in any relationship where there has been an estrangement and you're the one, whether it's you wanna take the higher ground or you're the one that's hurting more, what are the steps, Doctor?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 49:15 Yeah. Well, what I often tell parents is, um, there's a lot more things you can do wrong than you can do right. So, you know, the things you can do wrong are contained in the, the five most common mistakes that we've already discussed. The things that you can do right are to, um, to show compassion, to take responsibility, to find the kernel, if not the bushel of truth in a child's complaints, to, to communicate that you know that they wouldn't have cut off contact unless they felt like it was the healthiest thing for them to do. Uh, if you have no idea, uh, what the reasons are and some parents don't, just say that, "It's clear I have significant blind spots as a parent or as a person that I don't have a deeper understanding, but I want to. Uh, would you feel comfortable writing me and telling me more about what your thoughts or feelings are that make you feel like this is the healthiest thing for you to do? I promise to listen or read purely from the perspective of learning and not in any way to defend myself." Um, you know, to, on the one hand, do not give up, but, but at some point you might have to stop as a show of respect. So for example, if you're getting your letters returned unopened, returned to sender, you know-

Mel Robbins 50:22 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 50:22 ... having threats of the police called on you, communicating through an attorney or your kids just get so unraveled, then you should just stop completely for a year. Sometimes stopping completely works because the adult child can feel like, uh, the parent is respecting their, their boundaries finally. Uh, it can make them respect the parent more if they're not just continuing to try no matter what. That old saying, "How can I miss you if you don't go away?" Is sometimes true in family life.

Mel Robbins 50:47 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 50:47 It can create, you know, that sort of space the adult, adult child to come in, to come into. Um, so there's a lot of reasons why sometimes just stopping, uh, completely is the right thing. But a lot of it and this is particularly true with parents who have been victims of parental alienation, where they've been brainwashed against the parent, by the other parent after a divorce, um, is to, to embody what I call kind of the lighthouse model, that you're just there on the beach, you're steady, you're like broadcasting light from this definite point on the beach while your child is being pushed up and down out at sea by the waves. And sometimes they'll come out and see you standing on the beach there broadcasting light and they'll get oriented towards you, but then they'll be carried back out to sea and pushed underwater, um, again. But your, your task as a parent is to be steady and loving and compassionate and available and responsibility-taking and hope that over time your child can, can find their way back to you through those efforts.

Mel Robbins 51:42 Can you define or can you describe what an amends letter is and how you write one?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 51:48 Sure. Um, first of all, they're much shorter than the parents often think they should be. Uh, typically two paragraphs is as much as I, I recommend.

Mel Robbins 51:57 Wow.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 51:57 You don't want it to be so long that, you know, sort of so much rope that you're gonna hang yourself with it.

Mel Robbins 52:03 (laughs)

Dr. Joshua Coleman 52:03 They should be courageous. You know, in AA they talk about making a fearless and, uh, searching moral inventory of your, uh, character flaws. I think the same is true of an amends letter to, to, if your child has made complaints about you, to be able to, to really fearlessly, um, say what those were and how you can see how that could have impacted your child, how that might have been hurtful or traumatizing to them or damaging to them or affected their feelings of trust or safety or security in you or the relationship with you. Um, that's, that's critically important to, to not blame anybody else, to not make excuses, to not say, "Well, I was a single mother." "Well, your dad didn't pay any child support." Or, "Well, your mother, you know, blamed me for the divorce when it wasn't

Dr. Joshua Coleman 52:47 my fault." Or, you know, "You had ADD or learning disabilities or you had your own issues or..." No, no, and no. It's 100% about empathy, responsibility-taking, but there has to be, you know, blood on the tracks, meaning that the parent has to actually do, um, show courage in facing their own character flaws. Not in a self-hating way, but just in a way and, and that's critically important as well. It shouldn't be an exercise in masochism even though it is a painful thing to do. I, I understand from my own personal experience. They're not fun letters to write. They're actually super hard letters.

Mel Robbins 53:20 What was it like for you to write one to your daughter when she cut you off?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 53:24 Well, I mean, there's two things that go into it. One is, is this gonna work? And the other is, just having to face the, the reality of some of her complaints. I mean, I can empathize with the ways that she felt sort of sidelined when I remarried and had other children and how my children from my second, my current marriage, had a much better quality of life and were raised in the context of a stable marriage and she didn't have that. And she was, you know, kind of went back and forth between two homes. There was conflict with me and her mother. And, you know, there's a lot, there's a lot there to be hurt and upset and feel displaced about. So, um, it was very painful. I, you know, it's, it was, you know, there have been numerous times when we've cried together about it because it was, uh, um... Yeah, it's just really painful.

Mel Robbins 54:07 What was her response to your letter?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 54:10 ... good. I mean, she, you know, to her credit, um... You know, what I tell parents is, I was just lucky that my daughter had whatever it is that causes an adult child to, to forgive and to accept. Not all parents, you know, there are parents who are just as dedicated or empathic as me or communicate just as well or better than I did, who say the adult child wasn't or isn't willing or able to do that. Uh, but I was lucky that, that she was able to. Now it j- it didn't happen right away and it often doesn't. That's why I say, it's often a marathon, not a sprint, so uh, took, took a while. And actually, we had a number of conversations. It wasn't just like one simple thing, like, oh great, clouds have parted, all is forgiven. No, it was... it still comes up periodically. I mean, not a lot, but, you know, it's, it... those kind of things are fault lines that, uh, parent-adult-child relationship that probably exists in some form, you know, will always, always be there in one form or another.

Mel Robbins 55:05 What if you're the one that's in the middle? So I've been in a situation where my two closest friends, one cut the other one off-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 55:14 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 55:14 ... and didn't talk to her for three years.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 55:16 Yep.

Mel Robbins 55:17 And I was in a relationship with both of them and one kept trying to reconcile and absolute stonewall from the other.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 55:29 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 55:30 What do you do if you're the sibling or the other child or you're kind of the friend in the middle?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 55:41 Yeah, well, um, it's often that a sibling will be, uh, one child is estranged and the other sibling is not estranged from the parents and what I tell parents is, "You can't really have your non-estranged

Dr. Joshua Coleman 55:54 child advocate for you." First of all, if one of your children is estranged from you, they are showing that they're capable of using estrangement, so they may well estrange that sibling.

Mel Robbins 56:04 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 56:04 Second of all, that sibling may say that if you are acting like our parent's advocate, um, I'll... I will cut you off or if you tell them anything that I'm telling you. So often, the sib- the estranged sibling, uh, makes the other, the not estranged sibling swear, uh, you know, that they won't reveal what their reasons are, what they're thinking or feeling, sometimes even where they live. Um, so I tell parents that they have to accept that boundary and limit as, as difficult as it is. The other thing I tell parents is that, um, you know, if you have one kid who's estranged, you don't want the non-estranged kids to feel like they have to sort of hold up some mirror of you as the great parent. They know how much pain you're in. So it's better, you're better off saying to them something like, um, "Look, you know, your sister or your brother's estranged. Um, you know, either we don't understand it or we do understand it, but, but I don't want you to feel like you have to sort of, you know, repair my self-esteem by making me feel like I'm a great parent or whatever."

Mel Robbins 57:01 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 57:01 "You may have the same complaints about me or you may have different complaints, but I want you to feel like you have... that there's room to do that without worrying about being overly burdensome to me." Now, if you're the friend, um, it's sort of a similar dynamic where you don't really have that kind of power to really change very, very much about it and you don't really... it really won't serve your friendship to be overly allied one against the other, even if you think that, you know, one person's more at fault or more troubled or more difficult and we've all got, you know, probably... most of us have at least one difficult friend, right? So, um, so we can be sympathetic to the, to the other friend who's on the receiving end of that, um, but, but if you put yourself in a position of advocacy, it's not typically wanted and so that can cause the person who's being advocated against to feel more misunderstood or ganged up on and that kind of thing.

Mel Robbins 57:55 I think if there's one thing I'm taking away from this incredible conversation is that when this happens, there's typically on the part of the person that is estranged, this story or feeling that you just don't get it.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 58:11 Yeah. Right.

Mel Robbins 58:12 And I'm tired of trying to explain it and I'm tired of you defending yourself and it's just easier and better for me to remove this from my life right now.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 58:24 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 58:24 And that's why everything that you're counseling us, which is the opposite of how you're gonna feel-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 58:32 Right.

Mel Robbins 58:32 ... when you feel wronged or hurt or desperate to reconnect with somebody, that really you have to step into the shoes of the other person or at least give them the experience that you have as much as it may seem unfair or it may seem like it's one-sided or it may seem, um, just... I don't know. Like, I, I, I'm sitting here. I can't even put myself in the shoes of somebody who's experiencing this, even though there's estrangement on both sides of my family, you know-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 59:09 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 59:09 ... in extended family.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 59:10 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 59:10 And even though my two best friends didn't talk for three years, and even though, like, I see examples of this everywhere.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 59:19 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 59:19 And it must be a profoundly painful and challenging and humbling thing to do, to say, "This is so important to me that I'm going to be the leader in this process and the only way that we're gonna make progress is if the person that's cut me out actually feels like they've been validated and understood-"

Dr. Joshua Coleman 59:47 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 59:47 "... without me defending myself."

Dr. Joshua Coleman 59:50 Yeah. No, I think that's really well s- well said. I think that's a really good, good summary of, of what this looks like and, and feels like. And, um, you know, one of the challenges is that generations are often talking past each other.

Mel Robbins 1:00:03 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 1:00:04 ... important, uh, article by, uh, Nick Haslam, who's a Australian psychologist and he called, called it Concept Creep. Um, and what he, what he found was that over the past three decades, well his article came out in 2015, so it's more than that at this point, but, um, th- there's been an expansion of what we consider to be hurtful, trama- traumatic, abusive, neglectful behavior. So often the adult child's saying is "You neglected me. You were emotionally abusive. You traumatized me." And the parent's like, "What?" You know, 'cause they're looking at it from the way those terms were defined when they were-

Mel Robbins 1:00:36 Yes.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 1:00:37 ... growing up, you know, whereas the adult child is looking at it in a very different way. So often, you know, if the adult child's saying, "You emotionally abused me," the parents, particularly a lot of these parents who've given their children a really good quality of life just can't relate to it. And so what I tell parents to say is, "I, I wasn't aware that you... It's clear that I have blind spots that I wasn't aware of, that that felt emotionally abusive to you. I'm glad you let me know. I would like to learn more about what that felt like to you, how that's impacted you. Uh, can... is there something you'd like me to read? Are... would you like to get into therapy around it? Are there things you'd like me to work on in my own therapy?" So again, it's kind of to, to the point that you were making, the parent has to really go toward the adult child's complaints rather than away from them. They do have to show a certain amount of courage and willingness to kinda get into the, into the really painful territory of how the child feels like they neglected them or hurt them or let them down. And no parent really particularly wants to go there. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:01:33 Definitely not.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 1:01:34 It's not the, not a fun place to be.

Mel Robbins 1:01:36 So when you get to the point where it's like, "Okay, I have gotten the message you don't wanna talk. I'm gonna just go silent for a year," do you send somebody flowers on their birthday? Do you send-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 1:01:48 I don't s-

Mel Robbins 1:01:48 Like how do you engage with somebody who doesn't want to engage with you?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 1:01:54 Yeah. Well, the difference between, you know, some... a kid who's a minor, which I would, would say that parents shouldn't give up, um, vers- versus a kid who's, uh, you know, more full-fledged adult.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 1:02:05 Um, so no, I think if somebody, you know, I... i- if somebody's gonna let the line go cold per my recommendations, I recommend they don't do anything. Because I think that for some adult children, they really need to feel that parent's absence. You know, for some estrangements, they're really trying to get in touch with a certain part of themselves that they don't feel like they can access with the parent involved in their life. The parent in some ways is too important in their mind. The parent feels really unimportant, but it's in part because the adult child has sort of closed off contact and every avenue of access, uh, to that parent. So it's that feeling that the parent feels cut off because they haven't cut off, but the adult child is doing it because they feel like the parent's too important in their mind. So if the parent can do that, can, can be no contact in the same way that the adult child is requesting, then it allows the, the adult child to feel themselves in a different way in relationship-

Mel Robbins 1:03:01 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 1:03:01 ... to the parent. So it's what I call lose your parent, find yourself.

Mel Robbins 1:03:04 Wow. Let's leave on a hopeful note. (laughs)

Dr. Joshua Coleman 1:03:08 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:03:08 'Cause it... 'cause even, you know, you talk about this topic, and I, I literally panic and I'm like, "Oh my god, uh, we always made them try to find the ride home from practice. That's emotional abuse."

Dr. Joshua Coleman 1:03:21 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:03:21 "You know, I had postpartum and couldn't be with my daughter for the first 12 weeks of her life, which made her feel invisible." And these are very real things, which we've talked about as a family, but it makes me scared 'cause I'm like, "Oh shit, what if they marry s..." Like so I wanna make sure that we leave with people feeling empowered. We are gonna link to absolutely everything from your books to your workshop, to anything that you have about how you write an amends letter so that people have a template. Um, I would love to know if this is happening to you, what is the first couple steps that you want people to take immediately after listening to this?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 1:04:10 Um, I think, and I'm not trying to sell my book, but I think get my book or attend some of my webinars just because it's a really complex thing and every, uh, story is a little bit different, but I think as an action step, I think the most powerful thing is to write a really good amends letter. And those also aren't really easy to do. They're... because, you know, they're kind of counterintuitive and th- you know, getting to write them in a way that doesn't sound defensive or overly explanatory or et cetera, uh, I think that's the single most important thing you can do. Stop defending, stop explaining, assume your child has very good reasons even if you don't understand them, even if you feel like they're rewriting history, uh, to really ac- approach them with a perspective of love and learning and respect for their boundaries or that they get to set the terms of the relationship. I think those are really the most important principles. And I think if people catch these dynamics early enough on, they're in a much better position th- than if it's gone on for a number of years, which is... you know, typically by the time parents reach me it's been a number of years, so they often just have a bigger hole to dig themselves out of because they've already made all the mistakes that we all make when we're going through this.

Mel Robbins 1:05:16 If you are in a situation where you are sensing that the boyfriend or girlfriend or new husband or spouse is starting to pull your child away from you, what should you do now to stop that sort of distancing that can happen?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 1:05:35 Well, you have to see that that person is the gatekeeper to your child and to your potential or current grandchildren. So you can't say anything that's going to threaten them. And some people who are married are really troubled people, so the more troubled your son-in-law or daughter-in-law is, the more you have to kind of walk on eggshells. Uh, you can't demand anything from them. You don't want to say anything critical about them to your child 'cause in all likelihood it'll be passed on to that son-in-law or daughter-in-law. And once that happens, you're kinda screwed. Uh, so if you have done that, as many people have, then you wanna work your tail off to repair that, make amends to that son-in-law or daughter-in-law. Uh, but they're the gatekeeper, they're the new alpha. You know, once you... your kid marries, you are gonna be diminished in the h- you know, in the eyes of your child. You are, you are in some ways being replaced, so it's not... parents aren't wrong to feel like they're being replaced 'cause in some ways they are, but it's developmentally appropriate. But the more parents complain about it and don't accept that transition, the worse it is.

Mel Robbins 1:06:38 And in all the years that you've been counseling people on topics of estrangement, what is the hopeful message here?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 1:06:50 I mean, the hopeful message is

Dr. Joshua Coleman 1:06:51 that statistically more, most people do have a reconciliation.

Mel Robbins 1:06:55 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 1:06:56 It may not happen right away, but, um, the majority of pe- rec- of estrangements do eventually reconcile, um, so, and that's, you know, that's not based on even people doing my method, so I would guess that if they're doing my methods that, uh, statistics w- would be better just given my own practice and personal experience with it, so, um, so I think that's hopeful.

Mel Robbins 1:07:19 Why do you think that is? Why do you think we have a natural default toward wanting to reconcile even if we're the ones that cut somebody out?

Dr. Joshua Coleman 1:07:31 I mean, I think as people mature and grow, they're probably able to see their parents with more clarity. They may become parents themselves and either be able to face what that would be like or they want their children to have, uh, you know, a relationship with their grandparents. Um, you know, I think that even though the notion of family being forever is still, is a much more, le- is a more diluted concept than it once was, I think it's still part of our culture, so I think people do feel some kind of a tendency in that direction, which may motivate them more towards, towards pursuing that, so.

Mel Robbins 1:08:04 And one final question, Dr., um, Coleman. We started this by talking about this really interesting shift in culture that has led to this silent epidemic of estrangement where people are moving from the role to feeling like you're an individual.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 1:08:21 Uh-huh.

Mel Robbins 1:08:21 There's less emphasis on family and more on kind of your chosen family and, you know, your friends being the family that you choose. And I just wanna know, if you could tell us what you wish people were thinking instead. Like, if, if this is the way that culture is going, as somebody who has been practicing and has been a therapist and an expert in this area and you've seen the breakdown of relationships and the reconciliation of relationships, what do you wish you would see in our culture and, you know, just kind of as a chance to say... You know, there are millions of people that listen to this podcast, so I would love for you to just be able to drop a bomb on how people are thinking about this in terms of their parents and their own trauma and their own history and the importance of empathy on both sides.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 1:09:24 Yeah, I think that, that we're sorely lacking in empathy and compassion in this culture and, and it's, it's ruining us as a society. And so, um, you know, having compassion and forgiveness, um, it doesn't mean you're giving somebody a pass who's been hurtful to you. Um, it, and, it... but it does, it does enable you to feel things in life or as a person or to have an identity, um, that can in some ways can feel more, more grounding. Sometimes people who are estranging have kind of a more victimized identity. "Well, you hurt me, so I don't owe you anything." And, you know, "I've been victimized by you, so I'm cutting you off and that makes me a stronger person." Well, does it really? I don't really know that it, that it does. I mean, it may provide a certain kind of insulation against ce- certain kinds of experiences. Um, but I think as a society, we have to do a much better job. I think parents have to do a better job in taking responsibility and showing compassion and empathy and I think adult children have to do a better job in showing compassion and empathy for their, for their parents. So I think both of those qualities on both sides are still, there's a lot more to do.

Mel Robbins 1:10:29 Dr. Coleman, thank you so much for your work.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 1:10:32 Thanks for having me.

Mel Robbins 1:10:32 Thank you so much for your wisdom. Thank you so much for your time today. It's been a real-

Dr. Joshua Coleman 1:10:37 Thanks for having me.

Mel Robbins 1:10:37 ... honor spending time and learning from you.

Dr. Joshua Coleman 1:10:40 Likewise. It was good to talk to you.

Mel Robbins 1:10:41 Thank you. Oh. Well, I'm glad we ended with hope and I feel very hopeful knowing that more often than not, your attempt to reconcile works if you give it time. Please share this with anybody in your life whether they're the ones that cut somebody off or whether they're the person that got cut off because it was packed with tools and insight and wisdom that we all need to hear. And speaking of what we all need to hear, I wanna make sure that you hear me tell you that I love you, I believe in you, and I'm not going anywhere. I'm here Mondays and Thursdays. There is no estrangement between you and me. I am gonna hold your hand. I am gonna put my arm around you. I'm gonna do whatever I can to understand and to support you because that's what I wanna do. All righty. I'll talk to you in a few days. (beep) Okay. So let me think about this. Um... (beep) Well, hold on a second. I don't think I wanna start there. (beep) Let's see. Let me think. Wh- why don't I just close this down and just kind of talk to the, talk to... (beep) Let me start over. (beep) Oh my god. (laughs) Sorry. Okay. Here we go. (beep) These kids are yelling out there. Can't you see that a recording light is on? I'm gonna estrange these friends of my sons from myself. That's not a thing that could happen. Okay. Here we go. (beep) Ha. Okay. (clears throat) Whoo. (beep) Is that the cat or my... Okay. He does not wanna listen to the topic of estrangement, but you do. (laughs) Okay, excellent. Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. (laughs) This is the legal language. You know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode. (upbeat music) Hey, it's Mel. Thank you so much for being here. If you enjoyed that video, by God, please subscribe 'cause I don't want you to miss a thing. Thank you so much for being here. We've got so much amazing stuff coming. Thank you so much for sending this stuff to your friends and your family. I love you. We create these videos for you, so make sure you subscribe. Mwah.