The Brutal Truth About Relationships You Need to Hear

Matthew Hussey 0:00 Love is not all you need.

Mel Robbins 0:01 What do you need?

Matthew Hussey 0:02 (sighs)

Mel Robbins 0:03 (instrumental music plays) I think the mistake that a lot of us make is that we look at a person across from us, and we think, "Even if this isn't up to my standards, I can fix this person. I can twist this person." And that is a tactic that will backfire on you.

Matthew Hussey 0:20 The idea that, "If I get close enough and try hard enough that they're going to change," it's a really dangerous assumption to make. We have to love ourselves enough that we would not put anyone in our presence if what we fundamentally want in life is something they cannot give us. There's eight billion people on this Earth. All you need to start treating yourself a little better is to realize that if you keep saying you love people or you care about people, that you are a person in the room. It's as simple as that.

Mel Robbins 0:50 (instrumental music plays) You have this incredible framework that you use when you're coaching people on relationships using four levels.

Matthew Hussey 0:57 Level one, admiration. Level two is mutual attraction. Level three is commitment. Level four is-

Mel Robbins 1:08 Hey, it's your friend, Mel. And a couple months ago, I stumbled upon this concept called the four levels of a romantic relationship, and it literally blew my mind. So I picked up the phone, and I reached out to the guy who created it. His name is Matthew Hussey. He's a New York Times best-selling author, and he has been helping people for more than 17 years to feel more confident and in control of their relationships every day. More than three million people turn to Matthew Hussey for relationship advice on his YouTube channel, which is dedicated to helping you create a better love life. And I cannot wait to jump into this conversation, because I am certain that his four-level framework is the best relationship advice that nobody has ever told you. So without further ado, please help me welcome Matthew Hussey to The Mel Robbins Podcast. Oh my gosh, you're in the house. I can't believe it.

Matthew Hussey 2:01 This is exciting.

Mel Robbins 2:02 Well-

Matthew Hussey 2:02 I've been waiting for this one.

Mel Robbins 2:04 Oh, have you?

Matthew Hussey 2:04 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 2:05 Awesome.

Matthew Hussey 2:05 I'm looking forward to, to talking with you.

Mel Robbins 2:07 Well, I've been waiting for you too, because you run the number one channel for advice on all of YouTube, and I cannot wait to learn from you. I can't wait for the person who's listening to learn. And here's where I wanna start. You have this incredible framework that you use when you're coaching people on relationships using four levels. It's called the four levels of a relationship. Can you explain it?

Matthew Hussey 2:36 Level one, admiration. Level two is mutual attraction. Level three is commitment. Level four is compatibility.

Mel Robbins 2:47 I love this concept and this framework, because if you don't know what level you're in, no wonder your relationship isn't working.

Matthew Hussey 2:54 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 2:55 Let's go through these levels one by one and really break 'em down.

Matthew Hussey 3:00 Let me start with this. Level one is just admiration. That's when you see someone, you may even see them from afar. They may not know you exist, but there's something you admire about them. You think they're attractive,

Matthew Hussey 3:11 hot, impressive, whatever it may be, compelling. Now, on its own, not important. The person doesn't... they're not attracted to you. This is completely unrequited. There's nothing important about it. It's just you having decided that someone is an impressive, wonderful, or just attractive person. Then there's level two. Level two is mutual attraction.

Mel Robbins 3:34 Okay.

Matthew Hussey 3:34 Now, this is when two people find chemistry, a connection. There's a shared attraction between them. Now, this is perhaps the most dangerous level. Because when we get attracted to someone, uh, which, by the way, for many of us, we feel like doesn't happen nearly often enough, and then we find that that person is attracted back, we feel like we've found the Holy Grail.

Mel Robbins 3:58 Yes.

Matthew Hussey 3:59 Like, "This is it." It feels like an explosion.

Mel Robbins 4:01 Yes.

Matthew Hussey 4:02 It's like, "Oh my God, this is the most important thing in the world."

Mel Robbins 4:05 Yes.

Matthew Hussey 4:05 "I have to do everything for this thing."

Mel Robbins 4:08 Yes, so this is level two, and this is dangerous.

Matthew Hussey 4:10 Level two. Yeah, because it's-

Mel Robbins 4:10 Why is this dangerous?

Matthew Hussey 4:11 Because on its own, it's not that important. A connection is not the rarest thing in the world.

Mel Robbins 4:16 That's true.

Matthew Hussey 4:17 Sexual chemistry is not the rarest thing in the world, but it feels, when you find it, like it's so important. But we realize it's not important when we get to level three. Level three is commitment, two people actually saying yes to each other. You know the, the number of people that I speak to that start with, "I have this amazing person in my life." They're this, they're that, they're the other, they're... You know, "Matt, you, you..." This person that, "We can talk about anything. We have the most amazing time together." And I, and I know (laughs) , I already know there's a huge but coming. Otherwise, it wouldn't start with all of this amazing stuff. And the punchline often is some form of, "But they don't want a relationship," "But they say they're not ready," "But they're confused about me." And it's like, okay, so we're in level two. We're not in level three. And there's a world of difference between those two places. Level two is a plot of land. It may look like a plot of land that's in a great part of town or it looks over a lake or is in an amazing part of the city. It's an amazing plot of land. Oof, something amazing could go here.

Matthew Hussey 5:28 You meet a person, and the connection, the attraction, the chemistry makes you feel like you've got an amazing plot of land. And all you can see is what could get built on that plot of land and how incredible that could be.

Mel Robbins 5:38 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 5:39 But in order for that to become that, you need a builder. And the next question is, do you actually have a builder? 'Cause when you have a builder and two people build together, they create something extraordinary on that land. They build their castle, whatever that castle is. And the more you build it, the more ornate it becomes, the more beautiful it becomes-It is weathered in all sorts of ways that are distinct to your relationship. There's secret rooms no one else knows about that only the two of you know about. It's your castle together. That's what's beautiful. That's what makes a relationship really, really special, is all of the work that's gone into building something truly unique that only the two of you could have built. Now imagine the scene of you sitting there, (laughs) building away at this castle and the other builder is AWOL. They're not even there. They are somewhere else because they're not trying to build with you. They're not trying to have a relationship. They just want an experience. It's a completely different thing. So level three is a relationship. It's commitment. Level two is just an experience.

Mel Robbins 6:50 This is painful. Well, I shouldn't say it's painful. I'm- I'm thinking on behalf of so many of the, uh, listeners who are single in their 20s and on d- and 30s and 40s and online dating, because I would imagine that there's a tremendous amount of confusion between level two and level three. And my next question is, how the hell do you know if you're in level three? How do you know if somebody actually wants

Mel Robbins 7:22 a commitment the way that you do?

Matthew Hussey 7:23 You have the conversation you're too afraid to have right now, the one that you've been putting off because it feels so good to keep enjoying this thing that you don't wanna wreck it, you don't wanna drive it away, you are afraid that if you have the question you're gonna be seen as difficult. So we don't say it. We're- we're afraid of the effects. And what we think is, by the way, "If I could just keep getting closer and closer and closer to this person, if I can make myself indispensable, if I can just get so close that I'm basically, you know, integrated with their- every part of their life, then f- essentially they'll see my value and- and by the way, they'll start giving as much as I am, 'cause they'll realize my value." Uh, unfortunately the opposite happens, is we give and we give and we give and we give and someone learns that there's absolutely no price to pay for the giving. So everything we give gets completely taken for granted and assumed, and we come to find after months or sometimes years of being in limbo with someone, when we finally say, "What is this?" they're like, "I don't know." And you realize you've wasted all that time and energy all because you weren't prepared to have a hard conversation. And the- every- every great relationship is formed in the crucible of- of hard conversations. And a hard conversation, by the way, is it doesn't have to be an aggressive or d- or- or, you know, a pushy conversation. It could be a very elegant conversation. You can... A hard conversation is just the one you're afraid to have.

Mel Robbins 9:04 (laughs) That's true.

Matthew Hussey 9:05 You're gonna find out very quickly where you stand, and you're also introducing an element of, "I'm not gonna be here forever."

Mel Robbins 9:13 So let's role play.

Matthew Hussey 9:14 Mm.

Mel Robbins 9:15 So I'm in... We're in a level two relationship.

Matthew Hussey 9:18 Yep.

Mel Robbins 9:19 And I want a commitment. I'm scared to death to ask you. I don't know how many other people you're dating. We've kind of been in that zone where we're hooking up and we're going out on dates and I feel like it's vibing

Mel Robbins 9:35 and I now... I don't even know what the language is anymore. That's how old I am. Do we say monogamous? Do we say exclusive? Do we say-

Matthew Hussey 9:43 Exclusive. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 9:43 ... that we're like, "dating," heaven forbid? Is that not (laughs) a word we use?

Matthew Hussey 9:47 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 9:47 Like, I don't know. Every time I would say something to my daughter she's like... Like, "Okay, okay, okay, I don't know what the terminology is."

Matthew Hussey 9:53 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 9:53 Um, anywho. Uh.

Matthew Hussey 9:55 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 9:55 We're in a level two. How do I bring this up with you? Can you give me the sentence, Matt?

Matthew Hussey 10:02 Yeah. There are different ways to come at this but I'll give you one way.

Mel Robbins 10:05 Yeah let's do it.

Matthew Hussey 10:06 Um, but I realized I'm investing a lot of kinda time and energy into this, and it's an amount of time and energy and intimacy that I wouldn't be giving if we were still giving it to other people. And I know that I'm not 'cause it's just not me. And, you know, I wanted to know if you're in the same place. If you're not, that's totally okay. Like, I get it. It's fine. Y- you know, there's no pressure. But if you're not in that place I- I need to reevaluate how much I'm giving to this because, you know, I'm- I'm excited to meet someone, you know, that values the same things I do or has the same things in mind that I do, and I wanna give my energy to someone who's in that place. And I- and I realize we haven't even had that conversation.

Mel Robbins 10:53 You know Matt, I- I am having a great time with you. I feel like I'm on The Bachelor right now. (laughs)

Matthew Hussey 10:59 (laughs) Keep going.

Mel Robbins 11:02 I am having a great time with you but, you know, I just got out of a long-term relationship and I- I- I don't wanna hurt you.

Matthew Hussey 11:08 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 11:08 I- I'd like to still see you but, uh, like-

Matthew Hussey 11:13 By...

Mel Robbins 11:13 ... this is why these are hard convers- so...

Matthew Hussey 11:14 Yeah but th- but that's a very real response, right? So let's keep-

Mel Robbins 11:18 Okay.

Matthew Hussey 11:18 Yeah, 'cause that's a very realistic response-

Mel Robbins 11:20 Okay.

Matthew Hussey 11:20 ... by a lot of people. Um, you say, "Look that's- that's totally cool. I can't keep giving my energy to someone who's not on the same page as me. Like it's not... For me, I know my- my energy is really precious. I know how much I have to offer someone, and if you're not in that place, it doesn't... You know, you don't need to worry about hurting me because I'm always gonna just do what's right for me anyway."

Mel Robbins 11:45 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 11:46 "And as much as I like spending time with you, you know, I- I value what I want more than that. So I'm gonna- I'm gonna do my own thing but, you know, I wish you the best and you're a great guy and it's okay. Like I get it, you're- you're a great person. I- I hope you, you know

Matthew Hussey 12:02 f-"... find happiness in whatever you do, but I can't keep giving time and energy to someone who wants something different than I do.

Mel Robbins 12:07 There's a couple things I wanna pull out that I think are incredibly important that I noticed, and I wonder if it was on purpose.

Matthew Hussey 12:15 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 12:15 First of all, I loved that you didn't say that you liked me. You specifically said you liked the time that we had spent together.

Matthew Hussey 12:25 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 12:26 And that left you, like, playing the person that's not as interested and l- and the level two, "I'm not ready to go to level three." Hearing that you liked the time made you seem stronger and more confident because you weren't sounding like, "Hey, I really like you. Do you like me?"

Matthew Hussey 12:43 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 12:44 And fishing for an answer. And then when you said, um... You used the word energy. You didn't use the word, "I'm looking for a commitment, I'm looking for monogamy." You didn't use those words that feel like you're locking someone down. The way that the, the, the coaching went that you just gave us and the script that you can now play and you should repeat in your dating and your relationship life was one where you said, "I value my energy, and I know myself. And I wanna put my energy into things that are going somewhere."

Matthew Hussey 13:20 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 13:21 "And so I wanna have that conversation because this has been a lot of fun and I enjoy spending time with you, but I wanna make sure that, you know, I wanna check in with you 'cause I don't wanna date a lot of other people."

Matthew Hussey 13:33 And, and-

Mel Robbins 13:34 Do you see what I'm saying?

Matthew Hussey 13:34 That's exactly-

Mel Robbins 13:35 Like, you remain powerful-

Matthew Hussey 13:36 No, that's exactly right.

Mel Robbins 13:36 ... in that because you weren't actually looking for me to say, "I like you back." You were looking for clarification on whether or not this was worth your time. And so that was super important for you listening to understand the nuance of that.

Matthew Hussey 13:53 Massively different.

Mel Robbins 13:54 Yes.

Matthew Hussey 13:54 'Cause you're not... You're having a conversation about the allocation of an incredibly valuable thing.

Mel Robbins 14:02 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 14:03 And you're, and you're showing through the conversation how much you value it. I know what I have to give is incredible. Like, that's the subtext. I know what I have to offer someone is incredible. So, you know, I'm very careful about who I give that to. This isn't a, "How dare you, you know, uh, uh, hook up with me," or, "How dare we spend any time together if you weren't in the same..." It's like, no, it's not... I... Again, so quickly I think a lot of people can lose their power that way because they don't take ownership of the time they've invested.

Mel Robbins 14:36 Yes.

Matthew Hussey 14:36 Or the ways they've spent time with someone, or even the intimacy. Like, you're an adult. If you wanna do something with someone, do it, own it, enjoy it, but if it's no longer working for you, then don't go to resentment about the time you've spent. Instead, just take ownership of, "I know what I've been giving you and what I will continue to give is incredible. I know it's really valuable. I'm deciding whether this continues to be a good inve- uh, investment of all of that time and energy." And if it's not any longer, that's okay. I'm not turning you into the villain, but I...

Mel Robbins 15:14 You're also not turning yourself into the loser.

Matthew Hussey 15:16 No.

Mel Robbins 15:16 Like, I think here's the thing that's really helpful about level one, which is, "Oh, I see that person over there as super attractive, but there's nothing mutual." Level two, which is this mutual connection and attraction and chemistry. And then if you wanna try to go to level three, which is where you have a mutual commitment, that's where you have to have the conversation. And starting to understand for yourself not where is the other person, but where am I?

Matthew Hussey 15:42 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 15:42 The second that you start to feel in a relationship whe- where you're giving more than you're comfortable, where you're unsure of where (laughs) somebody stands, where you're starting to get sketchy about stalking people in terms of legally on their... You know, where they on, or they are, or they're on their Hinge. (babbles) You know when you're doing that. It's time to have the conversation you're avoiding, which is, "This is to a point where I gotta be clear about whether or not it's worth me investing energy in." Because I think we all know that point for ourselves where we tip into either super clingy, insecure or sort of, like, resentful, like, anger mode.

Matthew Hussey 16:21 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 16:21 And you don't wanna be there, because it's not the other person's

Mel Robbins 16:25 fault that they don't wanna give you a commitment. It's your fault if you continue to show up to something that isn't actually good for you.

Matthew Hussey 16:32 And the standard itself can actually be the thing that creates attraction. We think... You know, we, we ask a lot of questions about how can we create attraction with someone. Well, one of the most amazing (laughs) ways to create attraction is to have standards and to, and to live by those standards. Let me tell you a story-

Mel Robbins 16:53 Please.

Matthew Hussey 16:54 ... 'cause you're gonna love this and your audience-

Mel Robbins 16:56 Okay.

Matthew Hussey 16:56 ... is gonna love this.

Mel Robbins 16:56 Okay, great.

Matthew Hussey 16:57 This is a story from something my own wife sent to me at a time when I was not the heroic, uh, you know, ultra giving one in the situation.

Mel Robbins 17:10 Okay.

Matthew Hussey 17:10 I was the one who was, like, all over the place.

Mel Robbins 17:13 Okay. By all over the place, you mean, like, you were, like, a player? So you were dating a bunch of people at the same time, or what?

Matthew Hussey 17:17 We went... Uh, we were, we... (laughs) We had met in London.

Mel Robbins 17:20 Okay.

Matthew Hussey 17:21 I'd, like, literally come back for a couple of weeks to see family.

Mel Robbins 17:24 Okay.

Matthew Hussey 17:24 That was where we met. Then I went back to Los Angeles where I live. We just had had a great time together.

Mel Robbins 17:29 So you were a level two?

Matthew Hussey 17:31 Very much level two.

Mel Robbins 17:32 Got it. Okay.

Matthew Hussey 17:33 Like, deep level two.

Mel Robbins 17:34 Got... Well, I don't know what that means, but level two.

Matthew Hussey 17:36 Lots and lots of attraction, th- m- absolutely no commitment.

Mel Robbins 17:40 Can I, can I just say something?

Matthew Hussey 17:41 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 17:41 There is no such thing as deep level two. Let me tell you why. There's only level two.

Matthew Hussey 17:46 You... I mean, this is exactly the lesson.

Mel Robbins 17:47 You know what I'm saying? Like, that's it. Like, you're the-

Matthew Hussey 17:48 This is exactly the lesson.

Mel Robbins 17:49 Right? You're, like, letting it be something. It's just level-

Matthew Hussey 17:52 No.

Mel Robbins 17:52 ... fricking two, man.

Matthew Hussey 17:53 Correct. That's exactly right.

Mel Robbins 17:54 Okay.

Matthew Hussey 17:56 So I go back to Los Angeles, and we're texting back and forth. We're having some calls. It's still fun, it's still engaging. We're excited to speak to each other. Gradually, I start to fall off.And-

Mel Robbins 18:09 What does fall off mean?

Matthew Hussey 18:11 (laughs) Like, I am not text-

Mel Robbins 18:12 Look at the smile. It's like, you dog.

Matthew Hussey 18:14 No, day by day, my texts got less frequent. I stopped, so I pr- probably at some point, I stopped calling and started only texting.

Mel Robbins 18:23 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 18:23 Then the texts are less and less frequent. And then, I think, I don't know what it was, a couple of weeks, something went by, where we'd already been not texting for a while. Maybe a few days went by or a couple of weeks, I can't remember. Audrey probably remembers. But at a certain point, I sent a message that said, it either said, "Miss, I miss you," or, "I'm thinking of you." She sent me a message I'll never forget, and for every woman out there, take this message and run with it because it is so powerful, it's so amazing, and it's word-for-word

Matthew Hussey 19:01 perfect. Now, bear in mind, I, I just wanna stop for a moment. What's the instinct to, to do in that moment if you like someone?

Mel Robbins 19:07 I miss you too.

Matthew Hussey 19:08 Yeah. Like, you, you just rush of blood to the head, nervous system activated-

Mel Robbins 19:13 Right.

Matthew Hussey 19:14 I'm just happy this person reached out-

Mel Robbins 19:16 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 19:16 ... and that they're saying something affectionate like-

Mel Robbins 19:18 Yes.

Matthew Hussey 19:18 Oh my God.

Mel Robbins 19:19 And this is for every human being. Like, I don't care how old you are-

Matthew Hussey 19:21 Nope.

Mel Robbins 19:22 ... I don't care, like gender, whatever. Like, this is, every one of us has that where somebody's gone silent and all of a sudden you get that little, "Boop." You're like (gasps) "There it is."

Matthew Hussey 19:32 And that, what you just said, is why level two is the most dangerous stage. Because the instinct in that moment is to text someone back-

Mel Robbins 19:41 Right.

Matthew Hussey 19:41 ... to fly to see them, to do whatever we can to be with them. But that instinct might be the most dangerous instinct you have in that moment. So she didn't do that. She sent this message back. She said, "Hey, um, I hope you're well. To be honest, when I get a message like this from you, I don't really know what to say." So again, that's like, that first line is like confusion. She's, she's pointing out that there's something at odds with my words and my behavior.

Mel Robbins 20:17 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 20:18 So, "Hey, um, I hope you're well. To be honest, when you send a message like that, I don't really know what to say," or, "I'm not really sure what to say. We haven't really felt that close for a while now." And then she put in parentheses, "Rightly or wrongly, this message feels like, comes across like a bid for attention."

Mel Robbins 20:43 Whoa.

Matthew Hussey 20:44 So if you break down that message-

Mel Robbins 20:48 Let's do it.

Matthew Hussey 20:49 ... it has ev- it communicates so much. And this is why I'm not someone who says like, you know, "Here's a thousand scripts, use them word for word." But you have to understand why language matters, 'cause language matters deeply. And if you know why it works, you could say it your way. But why does it work? Well, "I hope you're well," so there's still a warmth to that. It's not like, "How dare you?"

Mel Robbins 21:12 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 21:13 "I hope you're well. Don't wish you any harm." But when you send something like this, "And I'm not really sure what to say." Why? Because we haven't really felt that close for a while. So it's a little strange, the fact that we've kind of like stopped talking very much. There's, the interactions we have are very superficial, very non-committal. There's not a lot of energy behind them. There's not much thought or intention behind them. They're more and more sparse. And then, at the end of all of that, you send, "I miss you." That is completely out of sync with everything you have done over the last month. Or not done. "We haven't felt that close for a while now." Now that, again, is exposing the elephant in the room. 'Cause what most people are hoping for in a situation like that, consciously or unconsciously, is that you will not point out the discrepancy between their actions and their words but you will mirror them. That I'll say, "I miss you," and you'll come back and you'll mirror that.

Mel Robbins 22:19 It's true. We do.

Matthew Hussey 22:20 So she's saying, "I'm not gonna mirror that because that's not where we're at in reality, so I'm shining a giant spotlight on this elephant in the room. So you've got nowhere to hide." And then she said, "Rightly or wrongly." Now, rightly or wrongly is very powerful language there because it's also humility. She's not bringing ego into it and she's not flaring up my ego. She's like, "I might be wrong."

Mel Robbins 22:42 Right.

Matthew Hussey 22:43 "Maybe I've misread this whole situation. But it looks an awful lot like you're not really trying, you don't want any more, and you want attention right now."

Mel Robbins 22:55 Yes.

Matthew Hussey 22:55 "It comes across, rightly or wrongly, like a bid for attention." Now, in that moment, I'm called out. So what do you do with that information? Well, it depends on the kind of person you're dealing with. Some people in response to that will love bomb you. Especially an unhealthy person is gonna go, "Now I'm gonna get you. So, oh my God, let

Matthew Hussey 23:20 me call you right now, blah, blah, blah, charm, charm, charm, charm, charm."

Mel Robbins 23:24 "I've been so busy, yeah."

Matthew Hussey 23:24 Like, "Let me fly out to see you this weekend. Can you come out to see m-" You know, you know, like goes full charm mode. I'm not gonna, uh, I didn't do that then, but there was a time in my life where I absolutely would've done that.

Mel Robbins 23:36 And just to be clear, that's still in level two. Because you haven't had-

Matthew Hussey 23:40 Well-

Mel Robbins 23:41 ... the conversation, right? About the commitment.

Matthew Hussey 23:44 Yes. Yes.

Mel Robbins 23:46 'Cause they're keeping you in level two. I love how simple this is. That you're either attracted to somebody who, which is admiration, that is not interested in you. Or there's this level two dangerous mode-

Matthew Hussey 23:59 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 23:59 ... where it is all about the attraction and the game there is to keep you in that lane.

Matthew Hussey 24:05 100%.

Mel Robbins 24:06 And so you have to know for yourself, which it's very clear that your wife Audrey did in that moment, that I'm done with level two.And the fact that you probably were pulling away made her realize she wanted to have something that was more certain with you if it was gonna continue.

Matthew Hussey 24:24 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 24:24 And she did the thing that most of us don't do, which is she acted consistently with somebody who no longer wanted to be in level two. She wanted to be with somebody who was willing to go to level three and have the commitment.

Matthew Hussey 24:41 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 24:42 And she is also smart, and I need every one of you listening to hear me. You will stay in level two for the rest of your damn life if you're unwilling to have the conversation about level three.

Matthew Hussey 24:55 Because no one, no one cares about your time and your life as much as you. And expecting them to is a recipe for wasting your life. So many of my audience are not in their early 20s where it's like, "Well, I could throw away five years on a-

Mel Robbins 25:16 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 25:17 ... person in level two, and you know, plenty of time to go and..." I deal with people in their 30s, late 30s, early 40s, and many of them are... their life's greatest dream is to have their own biological family, and they are in level two right now at risk of sacrificing, for many of them, their biggest goal, their biggest dream in the entire world for someone who I guarantee is either not gonna regret having wasted all that time of yours or even if they do, which many do.... When I look back on my life, I regret wasting people's time. I don't have the power to give it back to them.

Mel Robbins 26:02 I love that we're talking about this because I have seen too many of my friends literally waste a decade-

Matthew Hussey 26:09 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 26:09 ... with somebody. And this doesn't have to look like one-night stands and dating. This could be somebody that you're living with that doesn't wanna get married.

Matthew Hussey 26:17 That's right.

Mel Robbins 26:17 Or who you keep thinking is gonna change their mind on having children with you, and you won't have the conversation. Like the, the moving from level two to level three is really about the type of commitment you're looking for.

Matthew Hussey 26:31 And Level 2 doesn't just refer to someone who's keeping you in limbo in month three where they don't want a relationship and you do. It's anyone who can't give you the level of commitment that you're looking for. There are couples that have been

Matthew Hussey 26:45 together for three years and one of them deeply wants marriage, deeply wants to have a family, and the other one just cannot make up their mind or says, "I really don't want this." That represents a level of commitment you know you need in order to be happy that someone else isn't giving you.

Mel Robbins 27:03 Whoa. That's a really important point 'cause we've been focusing on dating, but you're basically saying that you could be trapped in level two for years because you are in a relationship justifying staying because of the attraction or whatever else, but you don't have the commitment that you deeply in your heart want.

Matthew Hussey 27:23 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 27:24 Holy cow. Let's keep digging into level two.

Matthew Hussey 27:27 Yes. And the hardest conversation that you have to have is the one you have with yourself where you come to terms with the fact that this conversation that you have out loud with them might be the one that ends the relationship. And so we're afraid to have a conversation with them because we haven't had a conversation with ourselves first about what we're prepared to make peace with, about what is most important to us. In our love lives, and this is a model you can use for any part of your life, but in our love lives, in order

Matthew Hussey 28:05 to change, in order to get a different result, we have to rewire our brain. I put an entire chapter in this new book called How to Rewire Your Brain. Now, how do you do that when you've been doing things for a certain way for so long? How do you get to the point where you're actually prepared to do something different? The first thing you have to do is you have to make change absolutely necessary for yourself. Now, one of the things I do is get people to have the conversations with themselves that they're, they've been putting off year after year after year. That conversation might be with a 35-year-old or a 37-year-old who finally has the conversation with themselves about how important it is to them to have children, because it all starts with getting really, really, really honest about that.

Mel Robbins 28:59 How do you make somebody who's in their 30s or even late 20s who is starting to panic about this-

Matthew Hussey 29:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 29:08 ... how do you, how do you coach somebody to have that conversation with themselves? Because we will come in and rationalize, "Oh, they might change. Oh, I have time. Oh, I could just do this. Oh, I could just do that." And there is a biological reality-

Matthew Hussey 29:21 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 29:21 ... if you are somebody who one of your biggest life goals is to have a family of your own. And you know, after coaching people for 17 years, you've seen this window close on people.

Matthew Hussey 29:32 I've seen it close. I've seen the protracted grief that takes place for many years afterwards that many of them still haven't been able to process. Um, I mean, I've, I've watched the pain. I've had a front row seat to the most terrible pain that people go through. I had a woman at my retreat who just balled up on the floor and was inconsolable because she had spent 10 years married to a man who always said that he would, um, he wasn't sure about having children, and year after year after year, she delayed the conversation not only with him but with herself and-... missed her window, biologically, and then he ended up leaving the relationship anyway. And the grief that she felt was profound. The conversation starts by truly assessing "How important is this to me? What is it about this that makes it something that I feel is a non-negotiable for me? At least a non-negotiable that I'm gonna try for." 'Cause even for those for whom it's a non-negotiable, we all know, not everyone has it as simple as they think-

Mel Robbins 30:54 Right.

Matthew Hussey 30:54 ... it's going to, and a lot of people find it impossible.

Mel Robbins 30:56 Well, and I also wanna broaden this out, because what you're actually talking about is the level of honesty you have to have with yourself to go from level two to level three.

Matthew Hussey 31:05 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 31:05 If it's not happening. Whether that's dating to moving in, or it is living together to engaged, or (laughs) engaged to married, or whatever, or trying harder in a relationship, that there is this movement that has to be intentional to get you to the commitment phase. And I can see how, if you don't even know what the hell you want-

Matthew Hussey 31:26 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 31:26 ... and you're not being honest with yourself, you wouldn't be able to have the conversation in a casual sex situa- si- situation of saying, "Hey, I just know myself, and I don't wanna put my energy into something that isn't actually heading somewhere. And so I just need to check in with you, because-"

Matthew Hussey 31:46 You-

Mel Robbins 31:46 "... having a lot of fun, but I know myself, and I prioritize my wellbeing and my time, and I just need to do the check, the gut check now."

Matthew Hussey 31:55 Even to have the conversation lightly and playfully, you need to have a very strong sense of what matters to you. Uh, o- of- of the path that you're on in life. You have to.

Matthew Hussey 32:08 Otherwise, you'll never back it up. Anything you do will be a tactic. It won't be as standard.

Mel Robbins 32:13 I think the mistake that a lot of us make is that we look at a person across from us, and we think, "Even if this isn't up to my standards, I can fix this person. I can twist this person. I can get..." uh, we're not thinking this consciously, but "If I can get close enough, I can change this."

Matthew Hussey 32:32 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 32:33 And that is a tactic that will backfire on you.

Matthew Hussey 32:36 Yes.

Mel Robbins 32:37 You've seen it happen over and over again.

Matthew Hussey 32:39 The idea that "if I get close enough and try hard enough that they're going to change" is a non-sequitur.

Mel Robbins 32:45 What does that mean? That's a big word.

Matthew Hussey 32:47 It's a, it's a, it's a really dangerous assumption to make. It w- I call it the one-day wager. I stake my life, my energy, my time, my most precious resources on- in the world, the ones I can't get back, on the idea that this person is one day going to suddenly change into all of the things I need them to become for me to be happy. The, the irony is people can change, but they change through hard conversations. And you also find out they can't change through hard conversations, because you'll learn, even if they say they're gonna do something, you'll learn whether there's progress or not. And if there's no progress, there's your answer. It's... there's a great Jacobin Broad quote that goes, um, "Consider how hard it is to change yourself, and you'll understand how foolish it is to think you can change someone else."

Mel Robbins 33:46 Hoo-hoo-hoo. That's... I wish I said that, 'cause that's a good one.

Matthew Hussey 33:52 It's f- just think... I, I-

Mel Robbins 33:54 It's so true.

Matthew Hussey 33:56 I want to eat well right now, Mel.

Mel Robbins 33:58 Okay.

Matthew Hussey 33:59 I'm not eating well.

Mel Robbins 34:00 Why, uh, why not?

Matthew Hussey 34:00 'Cause we're on the road, and there's so much good food in every city. And I- we have been doing a lot of broadcasting, and I haven't been getting to the gym. And I'm not making excuses, but I kind of am as well,

Matthew Hussey 34:12 and it's just really, really, really been hard. And when I don't train, I eat badly, and when I eat badly, I then don't feel good, but then I'm in a cycle. And that's kind of the cycle I'm in and have been in for the last week. My relationship with food has been a really challenging one. I've been very... like, food's been an addiction for me, for- since as long as I can remember, and it has been an extraordinarily difficult thing to fix. Very, very, very, very difficult, and I'm still working on it. It's an ongoing thing. When I th- and I want to change that. I'm motivated to change that. So when I th- and anyone who goes to therapy knows this. If you decided to go to therapy, that's an amazing step. Now all of the work is ahead of you-

Mel Robbins 34:58 Right.

Matthew Hussey 34:59 ... because you're gonna see things you might wanna change, and it's gonna be really, really difficult to move the needle on those things. If it was easy, you woulda done it already. So now take someone who's... may not even accept that there's something that needs to be changed, even if they think there's something that they could change to make the relationship better, they now have to be motivated to do it, and now they have to have the stomach and the resilience and the continued sustained effort to actually go ahead and make that change. That is an extraordinary assumption to make of someone that we are with. Now, can someone change? Yes. Have you had the conversation with them? Is there progress? Is the progress continuing? Well, you're, you're probably not even close to that s- level of understanding, because right now, you're having the conversation about what's bothering you with your friends and not even with-

Mel Robbins 36:01 It's true.

Matthew Hussey 36:02 ... the person.

Mel Robbins 36:03 It's true. I'm in level two. I won't even have that conversation about level three. (laughs) So-

Matthew Hussey 36:07 I'm-

Mel Robbins 36:07 Definitely not gonna talk about the... wait, I actually need to... I wanna make sure that I get to level four.

Matthew Hussey 36:12 Yep.

Mel Robbins 36:13 Because when you have the hard conversation, and is there a mistake that people make when it comes to level three, meaning the commitment piece?

Matthew Hussey 36:23 Thinking love is all you need.Love is not all you need.

Mel Robbins 36:27 What do you need?

Matthew Hussey 36:28 You need level four, which is-

Mel Robbins 36:29 What's level four?

Matthew Hussey 36:30 ... compatibility.

Mel Robbins 36:32 What is compatibility in your work?

Matthew Hussey 36:36 Do we work together? We w-

Mel Robbins 36:38 How do you know? 'Cause a lot of people don't know. Like, they, they want it to work together.

Matthew Hussey 36:42 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 36:43 But how do you know if it works together?

Matthew Hussey 36:46 Well, I think the baseline is, can we get our fundamental needs met in this relationship? There are, I think, lots of luxury items in a relationship, but w-... at the core, can I get my fundamental needs met? You have to ask yourself what those things are. What are the things-

Mel Robbins 37:08 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 37:08 ... I truly need? Like, I, I... a, a friend of mine always dated dancers, and I said to him, "Does y- y-... You're married now." I said, "You always dated dancers. Does your wife dance?" He said, he said, "Least coordinated person I've ever met." And I was like, "So does it bother you, you know? Because that was always your preference." And he said, "Matt, how much of my life do you think I spend dancing? So I maybe dance once or twice a year." He said, "It literally has no bearing on the quality of my marriage. This person is an amazing partner, an amazing mother. We have the best time together. She's my best friend. Like, those are the things that affect my life every day."

Mel Robbins 37:47 I'm so glad that we're talking about compatibility, because I believe that this is one of those topics that you don't understand compatibility until you meet somebody that you're actually compatible with. And you go, "Oh, wait a minute. (laughs) This is so much easier." And when I reflect back on prior relationships where I realize now, I just wasn't compatible. There may have been a commitment there. We were in level three, but the level four piece, there was no compatibility even though we wanted to be compatible, and here's how I know. There was always so much friction. Like, everything felt like an effort. There was underlying agitation, whether we're trying to pick a restaurant or making plans on what to do on a Saturday, or, like, those relationships that you find yourself in where everything that the person does irritates you. That's a sign that you're not compatible. When you're compatible with somebody, it's not that hard. Sure, you fight. Sure, there are things that bother you. But it passes so quickly because there's this energetic match. You know, I'm, uh, the kind of person that has massive ADHD, and I'm very competitive and hard-driving, and the reason why I'm so compatible with my husband is probably because he is a very easygoing, very kind kind of person. And if I were with somebody that were more hard-driving like me, we'd probably kill each other, because there'd be a ton of friction around the energy with us. And so compatibility for me, Matt, really is when it just works. And it's easier to tell when you're not compatible, because it's hard, and you're always kind of upset with somebody or walking on eggshells, or you don't think like you can be yourself, and I guess the bottom line is that. I knew when I met Chris he was the one because I realized, "Oh my God, I can be exactly who I am and exactly who I'm

Mel Robbins 39:42 not. I don't have to pretend. I don't have to work hard to be somebody different to make this work." That is what is at the heart of compatibility, that you can be you, and when you find that, you'll know it, because it'll be easier than any other relationship you've had in the past, because the energy matches. Matthew, what is your message to someone who is really struggling with valuing themselves inside a relationship?

Matthew Hussey 40:11 We have to love ourselves enough that we would not put anyone in our presence, no one would be the continued recipient of our investment, our energy, our attention, our love, our intimacy if what we fundamentally want in life is something they cannot give us. That's the essence of self-love. So how does it translate to the relationship with ourselves? Well, there's eight billion people on this Earth. Now, all you need to start treating yourself a little better is to realize that if you keep saying you love people or you care about people, that you are a person in the room. It's as simple as that. That's a starting point, but it's actually more important than that. Of the eight billion people on this Earth, you are the only one charged with the responsibility of taking care of this one human. You were born, and someone said, "You have one job. Take care of this human." That's it. And your only job in this world is to take care of, nurture, stand up for, help this person find happiness, be there for this human. That's it. When you look at it like that, comparison makes no sense anymore, 'cause you go, I... It's not... I can't exchange this human. I only get one, and my job isn't to judge this human. My... I only get one, so judgment is irrelevant. My job is just to give the best possible life to this human. That turns self-love into something I knew exactly how to do because I realized, "Oh, I don't need to like myself in order to love myself." Liking myself can come later. Loving myself isn't a feeling. It's an approach.

Matthew Hussey 42:10 It's a job. It's a verb. Once we understand that, we go, "Why would I let someone who doesn't respect this human anywhere near them, why would I let someone who is making this human feel unsafe or confused about their worth, or, or keeps them in limbo?"... or picks them up and puts them down, is c- completely inconsistent with them. Why would I let anyone like that near this human? The way you stick to these standards is you connect with the fact that even when it's difficult, it's your job to take care of this human. This isn't like a one-time epiphany. It's something that I go through, you know, once a month, once a week sometimes if I feel disconnected from myself and n- why I should be loving myself. You want this structure laid out in a way you can go through anytime you want, which is why I put the entire thing inside my book in a section called Core Confidence.

Mel Robbins 43:13 A lot of us are crazy critical of the way our parents raised us. Perhaps we should be more critical of how we're raising ourselves. Matthew Hussey, the new book is Love Life. Thank you, thank you, thank you for being here. Thank you for pouring so much love into us. And, um, I'll tell you, that level four thing, one, two, three, four, really changed me. And so, I'd never heard that before. I really, truly love that you shared that with us and everything else. So, congratulations on everything that you're doing. Um, Audrey, thank you for sending that badass text back-

Matthew Hussey 43:52 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 43:52 ... and letting him know where he was and where he stood and standing for yourself, because I think it's a really good blueprint-

Matthew Hussey 44:00 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 44:00 ... for how you can raise your standards too. And for you listening, I just wanna make sure, in case nobody else tells you, that I tell you that I love you, and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And a huge part of that is you creating higher standards for how you treat yourself and who you let into your life. And now that you have heard this conversation, you know exactly how to do that. So go do it. I'll talk to you in a few days. And for you on YouTube, thank you, thank you, thank you for being here with us today. And I wanna be sure to tell you, in case nobody does, I love you. I think we're like in level three. We're kind of in a commitment here, right? We're on YouTube together. That's why I keep showing up every day, and it's your turn for commitment. Would you hit subscribe if you're not subscribed to this channel? It's a way you can support me in bringing you videos every single day, 'cause I love you and believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And that's what these videos are about, inspiring you and equipping you to do so. And now that we're on the topic of love, I know you're like, "Okay, I'd love to watch some more," which is why I'm gonna recommend you go to this video next. This one's with my friend, Jay Shetty, and it's all about love. How to find it, keep it, and let it go.