The Truth About Love: How to Find It, Keep It, and Let It Go With Jay Shetty | Mel Robbins Podcast

Mel Robbins 0:03 Because of all the people that you have requested that I interview on this podcast, there is one person who you have asked for over and over and over again, Jay Shetty.

Jay Shetty 0:15 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 0:16 (laughs)

Jay Shetty 0:16 I define love as when you like someone's personality-

Mel Robbins 0:19 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 0:20 ... when you respect their values, and when you're committed to helping them achieve their goals. Are you trying to get them to the next step in their journey? Or are you trying to get them to the next step in your journey?

Mel Robbins 0:32 Oh, okay. Hold on everybody. Did you just hear that? Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to an extraordinary episode of The Mel Robbins Podcast. My name is Mel Robbins. I'm a New York Times best-selling author and one of the most trusted experts in the world on behavior change and motivation. And you know, I often say that The Mel Robbins Podcast is our podcast. And today, it truly is because of all the people that you have requested that I interview on this podcast, and trust me, you have been requesting thousands of amazing people at melrobbins.com, and if you didn't know there was a form you could fill out to suggest a topic or suggest a, a guest, now you do. Well, you've suggested thousands, and I mean, thousands of amazing people, but there is one person who you have asked for over and over and over again, more than anybody else on the planet of eight billion people. You have said things like, "He's given me insights that I never thought of before. Please have him on the show because of his wisdom. His practical tips and guidance are truly helpful and encouraging." So today, it is my pleasure to welcome the most requested human being of all time in-person on this podcast, none other than the amazing Jay Shetty.

Jay Shetty 1:58 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:59 (laughs)

Jay Shetty 2:00 Wow, I had no idea. That is so humbling and that is incredible. I thought you were gonna say all of that and then follow up with someone else's name.

Mel Robbins 2:08 Uh, when you're sitting here, you-

Jay Shetty 2:10 Just to say... No, no, no. I, I literally thought you were going to. That is, that is so kind, and everyone who's requested me or has connected with my work or has liked a video, read a book, or listened to a podcast, thank you. Thank you so much. That, that honestly is... Wow, that is incredible. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Mel Robbins 2:26 I, I love how humble you are because you actually-

Jay Shetty 2:29 Thank you.

Mel Robbins 2:30 ... mean... He, he looks surpri- I wish you guys, if you're not watching the YouTube interview, you can see that he is genuinely surprised to hear his own name.

Jay Shetty 2:39 I, I am. I, I think it's... I don't think... I can't believe it. I spent years doing events since I was 18 years old with five to 10 people in a room for 10 years, and every single year, five to 10 people would come, maybe 20 people would come. I had a society at university called Think Out Loud, and I would dissect a movie psychologically, spiritually, and philosophically, and teach from that movie, and students would come and gather and there was no followers, there was no downloads, there was no views, there was no platform, and I loved it, and I loved it, and I'm still as passionate. So today, to be doing what I've done for 17 years, since I started, and for it to have this kind of response is something that makes me live in gratitude every day. Thank you so much for sharing that with me, and thank you to everyone who, who submitted me. I mean, I've been wanting to come on your show. Well, I've been wanting you to have a show for a long time. So I think everyone's very lucky that they get to have you every single week in their-

Mel Robbins 3:42 Thank you.

Jay Shetty 3:42 ... life. And you know, as our friendships developed and blossomed, it's been so wonderful getting to know you better, to getting to know Chris better, and I'm just so grateful that you're doing this. I'm so grateful that I get to do this with you, so thank you.

Mel Robbins 3:56 You're welcome.

Jay Shetty 3:56 Thank you so much.

Mel Robbins 3:57 I have to share one other funny thing with you.

Jay Shetty 3:59 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 3:59 Because when you go to the form and you're, you, you know, kind of tell your story or submit a topic or you submit an expert, when you submit an expert at melrobbins.com for this podcast, we actually ask, "What are this person's credentials?" And I want you to hear-

Jay Shetty 4:13 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 4:13 ... what somebody said. You all right? They said, "Oh, please, we all know who Jay is. He's our favorite author. He's a former monk. A remarkable podcast with the number one health podcast in the world. He's been giving really amazing talks about love and relationship. And currently, he's publishing his new book, Eight Rules of Love. Please, Mel, bring him on to talk about relationships, how to be happy, how to find love. His knowledge has gained... Hey, his knowledge gained as a previous monk is so useful in everyday life."

Jay Shetty 4:46 Wow.

Mel Robbins 4:46 So people not only love you, but for those of you who may not know Jay's work or have ever met him, I want you to know he is the number one New York Times best-selling author of Think Like a Monk. He is an award-winning podcast host. The, the show which you need to follow is On Purpose. His second book, which will absolutely be his second number one bestseller, Eight Rules of Love. I have this sucker right here. I have dog-eared it. I have Post-it noted this sucker. You can buy it at eightrulesoflove.com or wherever books are sold. And by the way, Jay is not only a former monk. He is a rockstar. This guy is going on a global tour, Love Rules, and that starts on February 21st. You are dedicated, Jay, to helping people train their mind for peace and purpose every day. Your viral videos have been viewed more than 10 billion times. You're followed by over 50 million people across social media, and I am also, like you, honored to call you and your wife, Radhi, friends of Chris and mine. And so welcome, welcome, welcome. People have been not only requesting you, they've been asking for relationship advice, and I wanna start by just asking you, why did you decide to write a book about love? I mean, you could write a book about anything, so why love?

Jay Shetty 6:09 I think when I look back at my life, and I look at back at the areas of my life that I've made the most mistakes, and that have had the most impact on my life, those mistakes have had the-

Mel Robbins 6:23 Hmm.

Jay Shetty 6:23 ... biggest impact on my life, it comes down to love. And when I look at my life, and I look at the quality of how I feel, and I think we all do this where we evaluate, assess, reflect on how happy we are, how joyful we are, I know that the peak moments of my experience, and I think people will nod along to this, are when my relationship is helping me thrive, is helping me grow, is in a place of peace. And I find that when I'm feeling the unhappiest-

Mel Robbins 6:59 Hmm.

Jay Shetty 7:00 ... the saddest, the most disconnected are when I feel disconnected from the ability to love or receive love. And so when I looked around me and I was speaking to my clients, I was speaking to friends, I was looking at the comments section, I was creating podcasts for the last three years now, and every single time I spoke about love-

Mel Robbins 7:24 Hmm.

Jay Shetty 7:25 ... I would see the comments, and all the comments would be, "Jay, I found my passion, I'm working on it, but my love life's falling apart. What do I do?" Or, "Jay, I'm struggling with my career, but my relationship's great and I feel good." And I started to recognize that the quality of love in our lives, the love we're able to share and receive from others defined the quality of our entire lives.

Mel Robbins 7:53 Hmm.

Jay Shetty 7:53 And so what else is there to write about, if not love? Because I think it's one of the most underestimated skills in the world, I think love is spoken about in a very wishy-washy, woo-woo, kooky, ethereal-

Mel Robbins 8:10 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 8:10 ... intangible way, and I think that's made us feel and experience less love in our lives. And so I wanted to bring skills, and I know what you do as well, like, bring the language of skills, of science, of analysis, of structure, of stages to this integral part of our lives.

Mel Robbins 8:31 That's a hard thing to do because I think most of us think about love as something you feel, it's like an emotion, but how would you define what love is, having now researched this book and unpacked The 8 Rules of Love?

Jay Shetty 8:49 Well, it's really interesting because the research shows that when we're young, because our prefrontal cortex hasn't yet fully developed-

Mel Robbins 8:57 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 8:58 ... we see love as a feeling, and as we get older, when our prefrontal cortex is more evolved, we actually are able to use self-control and reasoning in our feeling of love. And so it's interesting how some of us haven't yet matured the idea of love despite the development of our brain. And so now when I look at love, or... and by the way, I was, I'm one of the most romantic people I know. I'm a sucker for rom-coms.

Mel Robbins 9:24 (laughs) .

Jay Shetty 9:24 I absolutely loved Valentine's Day growing up. I loved the cards, I loved the balloons, I loved the fanfare, I loved the booking a reservation at a fancy dinner spot, like I'm full on sold out to the idea of love and the way it's been marketed to us.

Mel Robbins 9:39 Yes.

Jay Shetty 9:40 And I was a victim of that definition too, of like, it had to feel this way, it had to feel that way, and you're constantly looking for this ethereal feeling.

Mel Robbins 9:49 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 9:49 And then either you find it and it goes away-

Mel Robbins 9:52 Right.

Jay Shetty 9:52 ... or you have it, and then you build a life with someone, and then it changes and evolves and you're feeling something different. And so through all my research, I found that ancient philosophies have so many different words for love. We just have one word for love, love. But if you look at Ancient Greece you have so many different definitions of familial love, of friendship-based love, of romantic love. There's so many different definitions, and ultimately I came up with a definition that I share in the book, and through all the research that I did, and I would encourage everyone to honestly come up with their own definition. The reason why the book is called The 8 Rules of Love is because I hope couples will read it, hope individuals will read it, and define their own rules. And I hope they'll use that at a basis of coming up with their own rules and agreements.

Jay Shetty 10:44 But I narrowed it down to three things. I define love as when you like someone's personality-

Mel Robbins 10:51 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 10:52 ... when you respect their values, and when you're committed to helping them achieve their goals.

Mel Robbins 10:58 Wait, there was something missing there. What about like, attraction? What about, you know, I really, I mean, I realize there's a difference between lust and love-

Jay Shetty 11:10 Yes.

Mel Robbins 11:11 ... and connection and chemistry-

Jay Shetty 11:13 Yes.

Mel Robbins 11:13 ... but, I mean, doesn't that have to be a part of it, Jay?

Jay Shetty 11:16 Absolutely. Absolutely it does, and I-

Mel Robbins 11:18 That's my definition.

Jay Shetty 11:19 No, no, no, that's your, that's where most definition stops.

Mel Robbins 11:22 Like I'm, I'm more shallow than the monk. (laughs) .

Jay Shetty 11:22 That's a, no, uh, that is a given, and I, and I fully agree with that. I'm, I'm massively attracted to my wife and that was a beginning spark of a big part of our relationship for sure, so, so very, completely agree with you on that. I think these are the parts that are hidden. So my definition of love is more looking-

Mel Robbins 11:41 Say it again, the three parts.

Jay Shetty 11:42 So it's, it's liking their... Let me break each one down. So when I say

Jay Shetty 11:46 liking someone's personality, you'll like this, all the studies show that if you consider someone a casual friend, you should've spent 40 hours with them.

Mel Robbins 11:54 Yep.

Jay Shetty 11:54 If you consider someone a good friend, you have to have spent 100 hours with them. And if you consider someone a great friend, a best friend, you should've spent 200 quality hours with them. So when I say do you like someone's personality, the question you should be asking is-... "Do I want to spend 200 hours-"

Mel Robbins 12:12 Mm.

Jay Shetty 12:13 "... with this person? Am I intrigued enough? Am I curious enough? Am I excited enough?" That's liking someone's personality. Now, I use my language very carefully in the second one, respecting their values. What I often find in relationships is that we want people to value what we value-

Mel Robbins 12:31 Right.

Jay Shetty 12:32 ... equally to how we value it. So if I value sports, I want you to love sports and adore sports as much as I do. If I value my career and my purpose, I want you to value my purpose and my career as much as I do. And we miss the point that pretty much no one will be able to value what you value in the way you value it.

Mel Robbins 12:53 Mm.

Jay Shetty 12:53 It's not realistic. Me and you share values, but we don't have the same values. So, the key to a good relationship is can I respect your value for what you value? And can you respect my value for what I value? Most relationships fall apart because we're forcing someone to change what they value. We're trying to mold them, and we're hoping that they'll contort, and that they'll move, and that they'll fold into valuing something else. So, an example is, if you ask my wife what her number one value is, she would say, "Family."

Mel Robbins 13:28 Yes.

Jay Shetty 13:28 Without a doubt. It would be her family. She told me that before we got married. I've known that throughout our marriage. If you ask me what my value is, my number one value is my purpose and my service. And as I'm saying this, Radhi's back in London-

Mel Robbins 13:43 Yes.

Jay Shetty 13:43 ... with her grandma-

Mel Robbins 13:44 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 13:44 ... who's been in hospital for the past two weeks. And I'm here hoping that I get to serve your community and audience through this conversation.

Mel Robbins 13:52 Yes.

Jay Shetty 13:53 And both of us respect that, knowing that we'd be there for each other if we needed to. I said to Radhi, I was like, "The moment you need me in London, like, I will be on a flight right back."

Mel Robbins 14:02 Right.

Jay Shetty 14:03 But at the same time, there's a mutual respect where I don't have to feel guilty for doing what I love, and she doesn't have to be made to feel guilty for doing what she loves. And so, I find that's where respect and value comes in. And the final one, this is like the hardest, and the biggest, and the truest, are you committed to helping them achieve their goals? Not the potential you think they have, not the goals you project onto them, not the life you think they could lead, but are you committed to helping achieve their goals? That is a sign of love. I think we think of love

Jay Shetty 14:39 as, "I love this person so much. They could be so many things. I see their potential." That's not love, it's about you. And so, when I think about a practical example in my own life, with my wife, a lot of the time when Radhi would cook, 'cause everyone knows she's a vegan chef and recipe developer, and she's, she's a food scientist, like, she's unbelievable. And every time we'd go somewhere, everyone would always say, "Radhi should start a restaurant. That's what she must do." And I remember at the beginning of our relationship, Radhi would hear this all the time, and she started feeling the pressure that if she didn't start a restaurant-

Mel Robbins 15:15 Hm.

Jay Shetty 15:15 ... then, then that wasn't a sign that she'd achieved her goal. And we sat down and we said, "Well, is that what you want? Is that something that's really important to you?" And she realized, "Maybe one day, but not right now." And I feel what could easily happen is we take all this outside input, and we make it our partner's goal, but if we can stay committed to helping our partner with their journey, with their healing, with their path, that's a sign of love. And I don't think you have these three things with anyone else in this depth.

Mel Robbins 15:47 Okay, so I wanna, um, stop right there, because you've already dropped a bunch of, like, amazing wisdom bombs on us all-

Jay Shetty 15:55 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 15:56 ... and just make sure that everybody got what you just said.

Jay Shetty 16:00 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 16:00 So, the three things, first of all, it strikes me that in an amazing close friendship, those three things are present too.

Jay Shetty 16:11 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 16:12 And one of the things I loved about your new book is that this is really about love, period, in your life.

Jay Shetty 16:21 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 16:21 And thinking about love as a skill, and how to both let it in and let it out-

Jay Shetty 16:27 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 16:27 ... and, and give and receive. And I also just got something from you that I wanna acknowledge, that

Mel Robbins 16:36 this is probably an Achilles' heel of mine, and in the example that you just shared, I just realized something that I am not doing with my husband, Chris. So, you talked about the example of other people saying to your wife, Radhi, "You should open a restaurant. You should open a re-" And I could see that, 'cause I'm like, "Oh, my God, her cooking's so fantastic. She should open a restaurant."

Jay Shetty 16:55 (laughs) She should open a restaurant.

Mel Robbins 16:55 Right?

Jay Shetty 16:56 Maybe I'm getting it wrong.

Mel Robbins 16:57 And then, yeah, and then you feel the pressure.

Jay Shetty 16:58 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 16:59 I think often in relationships, we either want our partners to change, so we're pressuring them to change, because we don't respect their values, we want them to conform to ours, right? And so, then the resentment builds. Or you have this fear, and I just realized in listening to you that I have this fear with Chris. So, Chris has, uh, started a men's retreat that he's been running-

Jay Shetty 17:22 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 17:22 ... for six years, and as it gets more and more popular, I realized, Jay, that I have been subconsciously trying to steer him away from expanding it, because I'm afraid that he's going to get very busy, and that's going to impact our family life-

Jay Shetty 17:43 Mm.

Mel Robbins 17:43 ... negatively.

Jay Shetty 17:44 Mm.

Mel Robbins 17:45 That is my fear.

Jay Shetty 17:47 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 17:47 I haven't even sat down with him to have the conversation, "What's your goal?"

Jay Shetty 17:53 Mm.

Mel Robbins 17:54 And instead of being afraid of it, or trying to manipulate it, that I actually listen and figure out, out of love, this skill we're talking about, how to support him in achieving it.

Jay Shetty 18:06 Mm. Thank you so much for being vulnerable to that degree, because it takes a lot to be that conscious to notice your subconscious that's happening, and-I think it's very natural. I don't think that you doing that makes you a bad person. I don't think that makes you a selfish person. I don't think that makes you a manipulative or controlling person. I think it makes you human, and it's natural, but I think as soon as we locate one of those fears or insecurities that we're projecting, we have to do something about it, because we could potentially derail our partners from the life they want to live. And I've found this with... I've coached and worked with couples who've been together three months, three years, and 30 years, and I use that as a form of learning. I don't consider myself an expert. When I'm with someone who has more relationship experience, including yourself and Chris, I'm taking notes. I'm learning from that person, and I have so many clients that have had

Jay Shetty 19:11 the experience that after 30 years, one partner has lived their dreams-

Mel Robbins 19:17 Mm.

Jay Shetty 19:17 ... and the other partner has either sacrificed theirs in building the other person's-

Mel Robbins 19:22 Right.

Jay Shetty 19:23 ... or forgotten what theirs was in the first place. And that is such a common story that that person, now in their 50s, is reflecting and thinking, "I can't get those 30 years back." Now, I actually believe you can start right now and start there. I don't think you have to get those 30 years back. But for those of us who are in a earlier stage in our relationship, I want you to pivot away from that happening. And so, our insecurities and fears get projected on our partners, and often what happens is, yours is interesting because your fear is of him not being around.

Mel Robbins 19:57 Right.

Jay Shetty 19:58 Often, our fear or insecurity is, our partner doesn't work as hard as us, so we want them to work harder. Often, our insecurity or fear is, my partner doesn't put in as much effort as I do, so I want them to put in more effort. So, usually it's the other way around, but it's... I really appreciate your vulnerability in sharing that, because I think a lot of people who are listening and watching, that will really resonate with them.

Mel Robbins 20:22 I want to start sort of at the beginning of the spectrum. So, you receive so many people from around the world every day, and so do I, writing in because they can't find love-

Jay Shetty 20:33 Mm.

Mel Robbins 20:33 ... because they have a string of relationships that have failed, and they have a story about needing to find love-

Jay Shetty 20:42 Mm.

Mel Robbins 20:42 ... about, "I can't find love," about... And I, I, as a mom, having had two daughters who are now in really great relationships, seeing them chase it, seeing them, like, attach their value around somebody else picking them, loving them, and I think a lot of people can relate to that. Where do you begin when it comes to building this new skill around how you think about love?

Jay Shetty 21:09 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:10 Where would you tell somebody? Is it rule number one?

Jay Shetty 21:12 (laughs) It is rule number one in the book, but I think you've just brought out a beautiful point that I want to respond to, and it's that we all have a story that we're writing about love. And the interesting thing is that our mind makes us

Jay Shetty 21:29 fiction writers, and we're writing our own fictional version of what our love story looks like. And it changes every single day. One day, we feel like anyone would be lucky to have us, but then there's months that go by when we feel we're completely unlovable and we're not enough. And I think it's really interesting because, we both know this, that the story you're saying to yourself, the story you're telling yourself naturally becomes your reality because you're looking for the facts. You're looking for those truths in your life. So, if you think to yourself, "You know, no one's attracted to me right now," you are now going around looking for how many people are not attracted to you and don't look at you. It's almost like when you make a decision to say, "I'm thinking about buying this brand of car," or, "I'm thinking about buying this brand of..." whatever it may be. Now, you see that brand everywhere. You hear it everywhere.

Mel Robbins 22:21 Right, right.

Jay Shetty 22:22 It's not that suddenly everyone just started buying that car on the streets or buying that product or brand, but you see it everywhere because it's at the forefront of your consciousness. And so, if the story is, "I'm not good enough, I'm not ready, and I'm unlovable," which is a very true and real story of the people that are writing in for us, that, unfortunately, is what you're going to perpetuate.

Jay Shetty 22:44 And that's why rule one is about what you do alone, because if you're waiting for someone to love you to believe you're lovable, that means you're saying that the day they change their mind, you're now immediately unlovable.

Mel Robbins 22:58 Mm.

Jay Shetty 22:59 And so, you're deciding whether you're lovable or not based on whether someone else thinks you're worthy of love. And I think that that sets us up for a lot of pain, a lot of stress, a lot of pressure. There's this beautiful thought from Paul Tillich, and he talks about how in the English language, we have two words for being alone, but we only talk about one of them, and that word is loneliness. "I'm lonely. I feel alone. It's been a lonely day. It's been a lonely year. I'm experiencing loneliness."

Mel Robbins 23:32 Right.

Jay Shetty 23:32 But we never use the other word, and the other word is solitude. It's just not used in our vocabulary. And he says that loneliness is the weakness of being alone, and solitude is the glory, or as I say, the strength of being alone. And what I want people to understand is that when you take the time on your own to do three things. The first thing is you have to learn about yourself. You have to learn what you like, what you don't like, what experiences you're into, what you're not into, because what we don't realize is when you start dating someone, you adopt all of their likes and dislikes, only in a few years to feel like you don't know who you are anymore-

Mel Robbins 24:18 Right.

Jay Shetty 24:18 ... and you lose yourself.

Mel Robbins 24:19 Well, this is gonna sound like a dumb question-... but I have to ask you.

Jay Shetty 24:22 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 24:22 How the hell do you figure out what you like?

Jay Shetty 24:24 (laughs) So-

Mel Robbins 24:25 No, I'm not... I- I'm serious.

Jay Shetty 24:26 Yeah, it's a good question. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 24:26 Like, if- if you've always been somebody-

Jay Shetty 24:28 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 24:28 ... so- so let's- let's role play.

Jay Shetty 24:30 No, no, no, let's do it.

Mel Robbins 24:31 You're my life coach.

Jay Shetty 24:32 Yeah. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 24:32 Okay? My parents are divorced. I have had terrible relationships through high school and college, Jay, and, um, the last person I was with cheated on me, and every time I go out to the bars with my friends, all my friends get approached by people.

Jay Shetty 24:48 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 24:50 I don't know who I... like, how do I find love?

Jay Shetty 24:53 Yes.

Mel Robbins 24:54 Like, how to... Coach me.

Jay Shetty 24:55 So- so first mistake, and I wouldn't-

Mel Robbins 24:56 Yes.

Jay Shetty 24:56 ... I wouldn't say this in a coaching session, but to speed it up for us, first mistake, you're already thinking it's about what do you like about the partner, I'm saying what do you like about yourself?

Mel Robbins 25:05 And where do you start if you don't know yourself?

Jay Shetty 25:06 What do you like in your life? So, very simple, when you go out for a dinner-

Mel Robbins 25:10 Uh-huh.

Jay Shetty 25:10 ... as soon as you get back, you know whether you liked the food at that restaurant or not, don't you?

Mel Robbins 25:15 Yes.

Jay Shetty 25:15 If you went out for a burrito, you know whether you like it or not, if you went out for Italian, you know whether you like it or not. How about we start doing that with people, places, and projects? How about we start reflecting, when we take on a project at work, after we complete it, let's sit there and reflect. Don't reflect while you're doing it, because that can often be misleading. Sometimes a piece of food comes out and it looks awkward or uncomfortable or it's a weird color, then you try it and it's incredible, so it's only by trying do we know. And so, after you finish a project at work, did I like it or not? What did I like about it? What didn't I like about it? Was that my comfort or was that my discomfort? Three questions, really easy. Did I like it or not? What did I like about it or not like about it? And what I didn't like about it, was that just because it was uncomfortable or is it because I actually found it terrible? And if you did that with people, groups you spend time with, so many of us never change our friends over a decade because we never reflected when we left.

Mel Robbins 26:14 Mm.

Jay Shetty 26:15 You'd never go back to a restaurant if you had a bad experience.

Mel Robbins 26:17 That's true.

Jay Shetty 26:18 But- but you keep going back to the same person.

Mel Robbins 26:20 Oh my God, we crawl back.

Jay Shetty 26:21 We crawl back.

Mel Robbins 26:21 Jay, we beg them back in our lives.

Jay Shetty 26:23 Because we never took that time to reflect, because it was always about them, we make it about them. So, give me... I'll give you a relation-

Mel Robbins 26:29 Well, I love... Okay, so stop. I want to make sure everybody-

Jay Shetty 26:31 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 26:31 ... has heard that. Skill number one, rule number one, let yourself be alone. But what I want to say is this was the huge paradigm for- shift for me.

Jay Shetty 26:40 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 26:41 So much of our ch- us are chasing and seeking love. And step one that I just got from you is you gotta make it about yourself and not about the other person.

Jay Shetty 26:50 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 26:51 And until you understand the things you love and the things that make you come alive, when you're alone,

Mel Robbins 26:59 that's the beginning of this.

Jay Shetty 27:00 Yeah, we keep making lists of what we want in someone else, right? We keep making a list of, "I want them to be kind, I want them to be tall, I want them..." So all of our energy is being pointed outwards, rather than saying, "Who am I becoming? Who am I striving to grow into? What is it that I'm passionate about?" When you're focused on all of that, all of a sudden you feel you have so much more to offer in a relationship. You walk into it recognizing that someone would be fortunate to be with you, and you'd be fortunate to be with them because you have something to share. I think most of us,

Jay Shetty 27:35 we walk into relationships because we're scared of being alone. And when we do that, studies show we do three things. If you're feeling alone, if you're scared of being alone and single and you're going into a relationship because of that fear, research shows three things happen. The first thing is, you're guaranteed to settle for less than you deserve. Guaranteed. The second thing is, you're more likely to be dependent on that person because you think they're out of your league, and so now you'll become, do, mold, fold, become anything they want- they want you to be.

Mel Robbins 28:09 Hmm.

Jay Shetty 28:10 And the third is, you're gonna be scared to leave them, because being with them, in your mind, is better than being alone. And so you think about all of us who've been in that situation before, and by the way, it's not your fault. Movies have done this.

Mel Robbins 28:23 Have you been in that situation before?

Jay Shetty 28:24 I have been in a situation before, many times in my teens-

Mel Robbins 28:29 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 28:30 ... where I, sadly, and I regret this, I showed love to people in order for them to validate me.

Mel Robbins 28:40 Hmm.

Jay Shetty 28:41 So, it wasn't that I didn't like them, but I showed them more extreme forms of passion and love because I thought they'd say, "Jay, that's amazing. You're the best person I've ever been with." I just wanted to hear those words.

Mel Robbins 28:55 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 28:55 And that comes back from my childhood trauma of being bullied for being overweight, for being bullied for being Indian, for having a group of girls who lined up next to my football match when I was 11 years old shouting, "She's out of your league."

Mel Robbins 29:09 What?

Jay Shetty 29:09 Yeah. So I was, uh, I was 11 years old in primary school, or elementary school as you say in the US, and I was... There was one girl in school that everyone had a crush on, right? You're 11 years old, and there was one girl that every guy had a crush on. And all the guys knew and all the girls knew, but she didn't know we had a crush on her. And one day I came in late from, I think, a doctor's appointment or something like that, and everyone was laughing when I came in. And I didn't know what they were laughing about, so I sat down and everyone was giggling at me and pointing at me, and I was thinking, "What's going on here?" And then one of my friends slipped me a note, and the note, I opened it and it said, "She knows." And I was like, "She knows what?" I realized that all the guys and all the girls had told her that the only person in the class that had a crush on her was me. And I was considered one of the least desirable people in my class because of my weight and the color of my skin. And so for the rest of that week, all the girls bullied me, standing behind... Literally we're playing foot- when I say football, I mean soccer, but-

Mel Robbins 30:17 Right.

Jay Shetty 30:17 ... we're playing football and I was a goalkeeper because that was the only position I'd be allowed to play, and the girls lined up behind the goal and shouted out, "She's out of your league. I can't believe you thought you could get her. I can't believe that you thought she could be with you." And I realized at that trauma, that experience transferred over to my teens...... when now, all I wanted was a girl to say, "You're the best. You're amazing. You're incredible," because of that other statement I'd heard all those years before.

Mel Robbins 30:45 You know, it's amazing how we have these experiences, and it just blocks our ability to let love in because we don't believe that we're worth it.

Jay Shetty 30:53 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 30:53 That also, I'm realizing, impacted how you first showed up when you started dating your wife, Radhi.

Jay Shetty 31:01 Yes. (laughs) Yeah.

Mel Robbins 31:02 So, can we talk about that?

Jay Shetty 31:04 Yeah. Absolutely.

Mel Robbins 31:04 Because, you know, I know that you were in business school when you first heard a monk speak at the age of 18, and you felt the call to become a monk. And did you meet Radhi before you became a monk, or how did you guys meet?

Jay Shetty 31:21 Yeah. So, going back to that, that moment, and then I'll dive into that question, I feel like you spend your life seeking validation.

Mel Robbins 31:29 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 31:30 You then don't get it in the way you wanted it, and then you finally decide you have to validate yourself.

Mel Robbins 31:36 Yes.

Jay Shetty 31:37 And that journey can be 10 years, 20 years, or even 50 years. And so, the shorter we make that journey, the better it is. I met the monks when I was 18 years old, and I met Radhi just before, six months before I was about to go and become a monk, so my final year of university. And the way we met was, I was using the last six months, I would use all my weekends to go to the temple in my local area to train, and, to be honest, just to stay out of trouble, because I was like, "If I'm at university during my weekends, I'm going to get into trouble, so I need to go and practice." And I was asked to show a lady, came in one day, she was around my mom's age, and I was asked to show her around to do some services and some rituals at the temple. I've never been asked to do this before this day, I've never been asked to do it again. And at the end of it, she said to me, she, uh, she said, "I have a daughter that I'd love to introduce to you. I'd love for her to meet someone who's into spirituality and meditation. She's probably around your age." And I said, "Well, I'm so sorry, I'm going to go off and become a monk, but I'd introduce her to my sister." So, that woman that I met happened to be Radhi's mom, and she brought Radhi in to meet me, and I introduced her to my sister. And I saw Radhi, I probably exchanged, like, three words with her. I thought she was stunning and attractive and beautiful, hence what I was saying about finding her attractive. But in my head, I was like, "No, no, no, I'm training to be a monk, I need to stay focused, like, don't worry about it." And so her and my sister became friends. When I came back from the monastery, her and my sister had become really close. Radhi was at my house all the time, my sister was at hers all the time, and then my sister was our- our middle person who... our wing person-

Mel Robbins 33:17 (laughs)

Jay Shetty 33:18 ... who- who helped us get the message across. So, we met- we met before, and it was four years from... And- and then I found out that her mother that day, uh, prayed that her daughter would find someone like me, and I found that out many years later. And now I know she hates me because we moved to LA, so... (laughs)

Mel Robbins 33:35 Oh, your mother-in-law hates you.

Jay Shetty 33:37 Yeah, my mother-in-law hates me because we moved to LA. Um-

Mel Robbins 33:39 So, you mentioned, though, that you made, you- you've made mistakes in love.

Jay Shetty 33:42 Yeah. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 33:42 And I- I want to just connect that-

Jay Shetty 33:46 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 33:46 ... that experience of being bullied as a kid, and then feeling like if you just really get somebody to love you back-

Jay Shetty 33:55 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 33:55 ... then you're going to feel worthy-

Jay Shetty 33:57 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 33:58 ... for how you showed up in the beginning with your now wife.

Jay Shetty 34:01 Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, I realized that I don't... I think another big thing for me was chasing the approval of a male figure. My dad was quite aloof when I was growing up, and I've always considered my dad to be more of a friend than a father.

Mel Robbins 34:17 Mm.

Jay Shetty 34:17 And even to this day, my dad's my friend, I can always talk to him, but it was my mom who taught me how to, like, shave my beard, and, like, that's why I have great grooming habits. (laughs) Like-

Mel Robbins 34:26 I was going to say, is that why you still have a beard?

Jay Shetty 34:27 ... taking care of my skin.

Mel Robbins 34:27 Did she not do a good job with that?

Jay Shetty 34:29 Yeah, yeah.

Mel Robbins 34:29 I'm just kidding.

Jay Shetty 34:29 No, yeah, exactly. But my mom taught me how to take care of my skin. Like, my mom was the one who was teaching me and guiding me through all the things that you'd think a dad would do. And what was really interesting about that is, I think, the monks became my first male role models.

Mel Robbins 34:43 Mm.

Jay Shetty 34:43 And I was looking for them to validate me. Now, the interesting thing when you're trying to get validated by monks is they don't (laughs) validate you. They're just trying to teach you the truth. And so, that's when I learned to validate myself during that time, and it was really powerful. But here's the interesting thing, we're conditioned so deeply.

Mel Robbins 34:59 Mm.

Jay Shetty 34:59 We've watched so many movies, we've listened to so many songs, we've seen so many cliches and examples of what love truly is, that we snap back into those habits as soon as we're back. So, as soon as I came back from the monastery, and I started dating Radhi around six months later, I snapped back into all my old habits because that's how strong it is. So, if anyone ever feels compelled,

Jay Shetty 35:24 and you keep thinking, "I keep dating the same person again and again-

Mel Robbins 35:27 Yes.

Jay Shetty 35:27 ... I don't know what's wrong with me," like-

Mel Robbins 35:29 Yes. What is wrong with us, Jay?

Jay Shetty 35:30 (laughs) Well, that's the thing is that the conditioning of the gifts and gaps that our parents left become the map of how we look for love. So, if our parents gave us gifts, we're looking for people who give us those same gifts.

Mel Robbins 35:45 Mm.

Jay Shetty 35:45 If your parents were present, if they turned up to your dance recital, if they turned up to your soccer game, you now are looking for someone who's forever present. Unlikely as an adult. That's not always going to happen. And if your parents left gaps, maybe they didn't believe in you, maybe they criticized you, maybe they compared you to a sibling or a family member or a cousin, now you have that gap, and you're hoping someone else is going to fill it. And what I learned during my time as a monk was, whatever you want from someone else, first give it to yourself. If you're looking from compliments from someone else, give it to yourself first. If you're looking for understanding from someone else, understand yourself first. And if you're looking for validation and affection, do that for yourself first. That's why I love, um, your high five habit. Like, it's perfect, right? The reason why it works is you're asking (laughs) everyone to look in the mirror every morning...... and give themselves exactly what they need from the day. And they can give it to themselves in the mirror. You're high-fiving yourself, like that is a perfect demonstration of how deeply you believe in this.

Mel Robbins 36:55 I'm going to ask Jay to do something in a minute, because he's in the middle of explaining rule number two, which is don't ignore your karma.

Jay Shetty 37:03 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 37:03 Um, and you have this beautiful meditation, but I just want to offer up something-

Jay Shetty 37:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 37:08 ... to someone who may be listening and feeling like, "But, but, but, but, but..." One of the most simple exercises you could ever do, if you feel like you just can't break through in this area of being in a healthy relationship, or, or truly, um, finding or attracting love with the right person, just write down on a piece of paper everything you're looking for and then be that person yourself.

Jay Shetty 37:36 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 37:36 And something funny happens. You're like actually looking for things that are a void, and if you be those things for yourself, that person starts to show up.

Jay Shetty 37:45 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 37:45 But Jay has an even deeper tool.

Mel Robbins 37:48 You have this younger self meditation.

Jay Shetty 37:52 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 37:53 Would you be willing to just walk us through that meditation, for just even a minute-

Jay Shetty 37:59 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 37:59 ... of what that is like?

Jay Shetty 38:00 Yeah. Eyes closed?

Mel Robbins 38:01 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 38:02 Amazing. I love that.

Mel Robbins 38:03 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 38:03 Yeah. We-

Mel Robbins 38:03 Okay.

Jay Shetty 38:03 I'd love to do that. I think, so, for anyone who's doing this, I am just adding a disclaimer that this can be emotive, it can be challenging, and so please do this when you're in a safe space, when you are, uh, feeling more steady and you're feeling, uh, at ease. And maybe do it when you can follow it up with a bit of journaling or a bit of moment of reflection, and maybe even a conversation with a partner or friend, or, or someone that you trust. And so just to give that before, before we dive in. But I just want everyone to gently and softly close their eyes. And just take a moment ... to be present with your breath, the seat or bed or floor beneath you ... and whatever sounds are in your environment. I want you to visualize yourself meeting your 13-year-old self. Visualize their face. Visualize what you were probably wearing. Visualize yourself at that age, and as you get closer, give them a warm, loving embrace. And now, I want you to share with your younger self everything you wish you heard at that age. Everything you wish you were told. You can give it to them right now. You are enough. You're worthy of love. You have what it takes. Whatever it may be for you, shower them with all the love that you deserved then and now. And now ask them what wisdom or insight they have for you. Just listen carefully, and if nothing comes up immediately, allow it to arise even after this meditation tomorrow or this week. What advice or insight or words does your younger self have for you? Once again, give them a warm, loving embrace, all their love, all the connection, and know that that inner child is forever within you, and you can revisit them, shower them with love whenever you like. And when you're ready, you can gently and softly open your eyes and just be present.

Mel Robbins 42:14 Thank you.

Jay Shetty 42:20 Thank you for-

Mel Robbins 42:21 It was beautiful.

Jay Shetty 42:21 ... allowing us that space.

Mel Robbins 42:23 I, I literally, um ... Do you mind if I share?

Jay Shetty 42:27 Please, I'd love to hear if you're-

Mel Robbins 42:29 I, um ...

Jay Shetty 42:29 ... if you're so willing to.

Mel Robbins 42:32 Yeah. I, I, I, uh, saw myself standing there with this Dorothy Hamill haircut, which was that famous-

Jay Shetty 42:39 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 42:39 ... figure skater. Uh, let me tell you, the 13-year-old Mel Robbins does not look like the average 13-year-old (laughs) today.

Jay Shetty 42:47 (laughs) That's why I picked that awkward age, like no one at 13, I don't think there's anyone who is.

Mel Robbins 42:51 Oh.... you know, that I've got this, like, uh, Benetton sweater on. I don't know why I'm focused on the clothes, but-

Jay Shetty 42:56 I love it. That's good. No, it's imp- no, that's really good visualization, like, the more de- I mean, if we had longer and as I describe in the book, the more detail, the better.

Mel Robbins 43:03 Yes.

Jay Shetty 43:03 That's great. That's fantastic.

Mel Robbins 43:05 Yes.

Jay Shetty 43:05 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 43:05 And I, I just was struck by how little I was. And I remember, um, what I said is, "I've been waiting a long time-"

Jay Shetty 43:16 Mm.

Mel Robbins 43:18 "... for someone to say this." And then the wisdom was, "Please say this to me every day."

Jay Shetty 43:25 Mm.

Mel Robbins 43:26 And that whole thing that you said about showering yourself with love, and, you know, one of the things I want to point about, point out about your book is that it's not only about the rules, everybody, but, you know, I'm on page, for example, 71, where he's unpacking rule two, and he has meditations in here where you can meditate on solitude. He has step-by-step guides for writing letters to your younger self. So it's not just the science and the rules, it's also the tools. And one of the other places that I want to go, Jay, because I think there are so many people that struggle with the beginning stages of love.

Jay Shetty 44:11 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 44:12 And we were joking earlier about lust versus love-

Jay Shetty 44:15 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 44:15 ... and chemistry-

Jay Shetty 44:17 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 44:17 ... versus true connection, and

Mel Robbins 44:20 in your research, you talk about the need for us to define love-

Jay Shetty 44:26 Mm.

Mel Robbins 44:27 ... for ourselves, before we think about it, we feel it, and that we have to know the four phases of love.

Jay Shetty 44:33 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 44:34 So you can walk us through, like, these four phases of love?

Jay Shetty 44:37 Yeah. Absolutely. So-

Mel Robbins 44:39 And I want to try to figure out which one you're in and which one I'm in-

Jay Shetty 44:41 Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Mel Robbins 44:43 ... with our partnership.

Jay Shetty 44:43 Absolutely. And, uh, what's really interesting is that I found that someone can say, "I love you," and it means they want to spend their life with you. And someone else can say, "I love you," and it means they want to spend a night with you. And the definition of love can truly be that large of a spectrum. Right, when someone says, "I love you," you don't stop to say, "Wait, wait, wait, what do you mean?" You just say, "I love you" back. And what you forget in that moment is that you signed up to your contract of the word love, but they signed up to their contract of the word love. If their love meant I like this right now-

Mel Robbins 45:24 (laughs)

Jay Shetty 45:25 ... that's what they meant when they said, "I love you." And if you said, "I love you," and that meant, "I want to bis- be with you forever," then that's what you signed up for, and you never checked whether your contracts matched. You never checked whether your definitions matched. And the unhealthy part about that is, you're expecting what you signed up to.

Mel Robbins 45:46 It's so true.

Jay Shetty 45:47 Right? And so, so that's where it comes in. So the four phases of love are attraction-

Mel Robbins 45:53 Yep.

Jay Shetty 45:54 ... dreams, disappointments, and adapting, and trust.

Mel Robbins 46:00 Okay.

Jay Shetty 46:00 And so the first one is attraction, as we said.

Mel Robbins 46:03 Right.

Jay Shetty 46:04 You have an attraction, you get excited.

Mel Robbins 46:06 There's a spark.

Jay Shetty 46:07 There's a spark. There could be something there. Now, if there isn't a spark on the other side, that withers away. It's game over.

Mel Robbins 46:14 Can we just start right there?

Jay Shetty 46:15 Oh. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 46:16 'Cause I think especially, and again-

Jay Shetty 46:20 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 46:20 ... mother of daughters-

Jay Shetty 46:21 Yes.

Mel Robbins 46:22 ... and a son, but, um, I'm more worried about it with our daughters.

Jay Shetty 46:26 Mm.

Mel Robbins 46:27 The attraction piece seems to flood everybody's ability to think.

Jay Shetty 46:34 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 46:34 And ha- what are, like, the red flags that this is the, "I love you tonight, don't text me tomorrow"?

Jay Shetty 46:45 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 46:46 And I have signed up for, "I love you" means, "We're at least going to breakfast."

Jay Shetty 46:52 Yeah. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 46:52 You know? I, so, so, I, no, I'm serious because I-

Jay Shetty 46:54 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 46:55 As you think about the attraction phase-

Jay Shetty 46:57 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 46:57 ... there has to be the spark. There has to be that moment-

Jay Shetty 47:00 Absolutely.

Mel Robbins 47:00 ... where you're like, "I'd spend 200 hours with you even though I don't even really know you right now."

Jay Shetty 47:04 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 47:04 What are red flags for when you realize my concept of what I'm signing up for is very different than what this person's concept is?

Jay Shetty 47:12 Yeah, so what's really interesting the way, about the way I see red flags is, I think a lot of people think red flags are things that other people show you.

Mel Robbins 47:20 Mm.

Jay Shetty 47:20 And for me, it's more about how strong your radar is, and what you're looking for.

Mel Robbins 47:25 Okay.

Jay Shetty 47:25 Because people just think, "Oh, someone's just going to show you all their flaws and mistakes." Very unlikely because most people walk into dating or meeting someone as a job interview, and so they're presenting their best selves. And so,

Jay Shetty 47:37 the way you know a red flag, the first one is the halo effect. You are giving them qualities that they've never shown you.

Mel Robbins 47:48 Give me an example.

Jay Shetty 47:48 So what I'll... I'll give you an example. If someone is attractive, you assume they must be trustworthy. If someone is smart or they went to a good school, you assume they must be organized at home. If someone is wealthy or famous, you assume they must be likable. So what we're doing is, we're giving people qualities they haven't shown us.

Mel Robbins 48:10 Mm.

Jay Shetty 48:10 If someone is kind in the moment, we think they must be kind all the time. We've never seen whether they're kind when they're stressed. We've never seen when they're kind when they're tired. We've never seen if they're kind with their mom, their family, or anyone else. They've just shown us one moment of kindness, and we've amplified that to be that they're kind all the time. Another red flag is something called the context effect. So studies show that if you're holding a warm drink while on a date with someone, you're more likely to have warm feelings towards them.

Mel Robbins 48:44 Really?

Jay Shetty 48:44 Really. We're that biologically simple. The context effect also refers to if you bump into someone at a wedding...... you are more likely to think, "That could be the one," because love is all around.

Mel Robbins 48:55 No way.

Jay Shetty 48:56 Truly. The context effect is also that when you walk out of a theater and you just watched a romantic comedy and they went off into the sunset happily ever after, you're more likely to believe you're gonna bump into someone that you could do that with. So, we have to be so aware of, are we actually with this person in environments that don't promote and flourish love, but in the realities of life?

Mel Robbins 49:18 How the heck do you do that when your hormones are like-

Jay Shetty 49:21 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 49:21 ... going crazy and yes, you've worked on knowing yourself-

Jay Shetty 49:24 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 49:25 ... and what you love, but I just wanna-

Jay Shetty 49:26 Yeah. It's a great question.

Mel Robbins 49:27 I wanna, I wanna just come back to this idea of in the attraction phase-

Jay Shetty 49:33 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 49:33 ... where you're not thinking rationally-

Jay Shetty 49:35 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 49:35 ... how do you notice this in yourself? Do you start like, bargaining with yourself? You start to notice that you're crossing lines with your own values. What would you counsel somebody to really pay attention to?

Jay Shetty 49:47 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 49:47 If they continue to fall into a problem-

Jay Shetty 49:49 Yes.

Mel Robbins 49:49 ... of making themselves available to people who are not actually available to you?

Jay Shetty 49:54 Yeah. So the first thing that I'd, I'd look at is, is that person responding at the pace you're responding?

Mel Robbins 50:02 Oh.

Jay Shetty 50:02 Right? Is that person responding at the pace you're responding or are you constantly having to force, play games? Are you spending a lot of time in? So, what's really interesting about what you're saying is that the biology shows also that, that spark we feel at the beginning, what we're really experiencing is excitement and stress at the same time. So the excitement is, "I think they're hot." The stress is, "Do they think I'm hot?"

Mel Robbins 50:27 Yes.

Jay Shetty 50:28 The excitement is, "Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I just texted them. I have their number." The stress is, "When are they gonna text back?"

Mel Robbins 50:35 Yes.

Jay Shetty 50:35 So we

Jay Shetty 50:36 think chemistry and the spark is something that we just feel, but actually it's excitement and stress together. And what's really interesting is that as you get to know someone better, the stress decreases-

Mel Robbins 50:47 Yes.

Jay Shetty 50:47 ... and comfort increases. So we think the spark's gone, but actually you've just become more comfortable in their presence. Now how does this answer your question? The way it answers your question is the idea that you can't control your hormones, you are gonna go through that, you are gonna feel all of this- these things. What you have to do is get past those feelings as they naturally will-

Mel Robbins 51:09 Mm.

Jay Shetty 51:09 ... and then use your reasoning and logic to be thoughtful, to be mindful, and slow things down. And that's the number one thing I can say. Slow it down. You will make better decisions when you actually take time to see the other person, but take time to reflect.

Mel Robbins 51:26 Mm.

Jay Shetty 51:27 That you message them, but then you also take time again to slow down and say, "I don't need to see them every day. I can see them once a week and see how this goes." And I think people are scared of doing that, and I want to validate. Your hormones are gonna push you and take over-

Mel Robbins 51:41 Right.

Jay Shetty 51:41 ... and you can't control that.

Mel Robbins 51:42 Right.

Jay Shetty 51:42 You can only control what happens when they finally calm down, and you can either look at that and go, "Oh, the spark went," or you go, "Oh, now I actually get to see." It's almost like it's been foggy this whole time-

Mel Robbins 51:54 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 51:54 ... and now the fog's cleared, now I can actually see. So sometimes you're just waiting or hoping that happens quicker, and then you can actually see. So, you could do two things. You can slow down the pace of a relationship emotionally, but you could spend more time with them to learn more about them in different scenarios, and I think this is one of the biggest mistakes we make. When we first see someone, we only see them in a very specific scenario. We see them on date night, we see them at a movie, we see them at a dinner. What about you see them with a few of their friends? What about you get to know them over an activity that puts you both in an uncomfortable situation? What about you go to an escape room? What about you go to a pottery class? What about you go to something where neither of you have any skills, but you get to try something new because now you get to see how they deal with new things? I remember the first time I took Radhika to an escape room, and we did a lot of activities when we first started dating and got together after we'd... Some, you know, gone past the first few dates and the escape room, she could tell that I am obsessed with figuring things out, I'm obsessed with time management (laughs) , and I'm pretty intense to be with when we have one hour to get out of a locked room. And I'd be like, "Radhika, come on, we've got 55 minutes left, like we gotta stay focused, like come on. Okay, you looked at that," and-

Mel Robbins 53:10 (laughs)

Jay Shetty 53:10 ... I'm like giving all these directions, and she's just like whoop-ti-doo-doo-doo, you know, she's just like bouncing around and then she'll push something, and the trap door will open, right? Like she's, she's an amazing lateral thinker. And it was interesting because that's where I started to learn that I'm an intense, obnoxious person to be around. She got to see that thankfully she still stayed with me, but the idea is you see so much more of a person if you do things with them that are not an interview, and I really believe that if your relationship starts as an interview, it will end like a rejection and a firing.

Mel Robbins 53:42 Ooh.

Jay Shetty 53:42 Because-

Mel Robbins 53:42 Ooh. Hold on. Hold on. Did everybody hear that? If your relationship starts like an interview, it will end in a rejection or firing. And I keep thinking about this idea of slowing down because if it's meant to last, you have plenty of time.

Jay Shetty 53:58 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 53:59 And the speed is what's gonna make it break.

Jay Shetty 54:01 Yes.

Mel Robbins 54:02 One of the things that I wanna really focus on next because Jay unpacks the four phases of attraction, dreams, struggle, and trust-

Jay Shetty 54:13 Mm.

Mel Robbins 54:13 ... in the book is I think my favorite rule, honestly, of all eight,

Mel Robbins 54:19 is number four. Your partner is your guru.

Jay Shetty 54:22 I thought it would be. When you said your favorite rule, I was thinking it would be this one.

Mel Robbins 54:26 Why did you think that it would be?

Jay Shetty 54:27 I don't know, I just feel like you... Obviously you and Chris have such an incredible hard work-based, like, genuine real relationship and marriage and it's like, I think as you spend more time together, you start learning so much more through your partner and from your partner, and I don't know, I just felt it. It was intuitive. I was just like, Mel, yeah, I can see Mel being Chris's guru and I can see Chris being Mel's guru.

Mel Robbins 54:53 Will you explain what that means 'cause I think when you first hear-

Jay Shetty 54:56 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 54:56 ... your partner is your guru-I didn't realize what it meant.

Jay Shetty 55:01 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 55:01 'Cause it didn't mean what I thought it meant.

Jay Shetty 55:03 Yeah. And I want to encourage people to understand that this step comes as you deepen a relationship.

Mel Robbins 55:09 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 55:09 This isn't something you want on day one. Like, if anyone's listening to that rule, and you don't read the book, and you're thinking, "Oh yeah, my partner's my business mentor," or, "They're my coach," or, "They're my therapist," like, that's not what I'm talking about at all.

Mel Robbins 55:23 Right.

Jay Shetty 55:23 What I'm saying is, that as you deepen your friendship, as you deepen your relationship, as you actually get to know each other better, your partner becomes the one person who exposes all your flaws, all your weaknesses, and all your truths to you without even trying. And I'll give a personal example of this. When I first met Radi, I didn't have anything. I didn't have a job. I was in $25,000 worth of debt. I didn't have any job offers or prospects, and I was being rejected by 40 different companies during the time we were dating. And so, I would tutor economics and subjects that I was great at at college and university to students, save up to pay for our dates. And I always felt intimidated that we'd go on dates and I'd be with her friends or family, and they'd be like, "Well, Jay, what are you doing? What are you up to?" And I really had no answer because I'd just come out of being a monk, and surprise, surprise, no one wants to hire a former monk.

Mel Robbins 56:29 (laughs)

Jay Shetty 56:30 And then it was really interesting, because as my career took off, and I've been with Radi obviously fr- since before. And then as my career took off, I started to hit these external milestones.

Mel Robbins 56:38 Yep.

Jay Shetty 56:39 And I'd hold them up almost, not physically, but... Not physically, but mentally. I would hold them up, and I'd be like, "Radi, love me for this. Look what I just achieved. I did this, love me for this." And she wouldn't love me more for that. And so then I'd achieve something bigger, and I'd be like, "But look at this, look what I did. Look what I did for us. Look how amazing I am. Like, love me for this." And she didn't react differently. And so then, I kept going, and then I held it up. And it was at that point I realized there's only two truths. Either my wife doesn't love me (laughs) which I know wasn't true, because she's shown me-

Mel Robbins 57:14 Right.

Jay Shetty 57:14 ... love in so many ways.

Mel Robbins 57:15 Right.

Jay Shetty 57:16 Or, that there was something I was missing. And so what I realized was, I was trying to get my wife to love me for what I achieved when she actually loved me for who I am.

Mel Robbins 57:30 Hmm.

Jay Shetty 57:31 She didn't teach me that by getting out a whiteboard and drawing bullet points. She taught me that by loving me only for my essence and who I was. So, every time she would acknowledge me or appreciate me, it was not about the views or the downloads or the- the amount of people that were commenting. It was ne- that was never the stuff she congratulated. The thing she congratulated was, "I really love what I learned from you in that moment today."

Mel Robbins 57:58 Hmm.

Jay Shetty 57:58 Or, "I really loved how you dealt with that challenge." Or, "I saw that you were being criticized for this, and I saw how you responded. That's what I love about you." So, just in the way she loved me, she was teaching me how to love myself. And I think that your partner's the only person who can do that for you, because they know you so intimately. But the interesting thing is, a guru, in the way I learned from a guru in an ashram, in the way I studied, gurus don't judge. They don't critique. They're compassionate and empathetic. They don't complain and compare to show you your flaws. They reflect the truth back to you just by being present with you so that you can see yourself. And so, a guru isn't a partner who's telling you what to do or manipulating and controlling you, because that's ownership, that's not a relationship. And I think peop-

Mel Robbins 58:54 Ooh, ooh, hold on. Hold on, everybody.

Jay Shetty 58:56 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 58:57 There was another one. The monk is in the house dropping the wisdom. I love making you laugh.

Jay Shetty 59:02 Oh gosh, you make me laugh-

Mel Robbins 59:04 But-

Jay Shetty 59:04 ... so much.

Mel Robbins 59:04 But-

Jay Shetty 59:04 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 59:04 ... you just said that when somebody's controlling you, and when somebody is, I would even add in, nitpicking, criticizing-

Jay Shetty 59:14 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 59:15 ... manipulating, judging, uh, being cold with you, silent treatment, that's ownership.

Jay Shetty 59:24 Yes.

Mel Robbins 59:24 Will you talk more about that? Because I think-

Jay Shetty 59:26 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 59:26 ... there's a lot of people listening to you right now going, "Your l- your marriage sounds amazing."

Jay Shetty 59:31 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 59:32 "And my relationship sucks."

Jay Shetty 59:34 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 59:34 Because I do not have a partner, uh, that is like that. I have a partner that's criticizing me. I have a partner that is doing all those things that make me feel bad.

Jay Shetty 59:44 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 59:45 So, talk to that person and-

Jay Shetty 59:48 Yeah, yeah.

Mel Robbins 59:48 ... this notion of partnership versus ownership.

Jay Shetty 59:52 Yeah, absolutely. And so, we come into relationships based on the imprints that our parents gave us, as we talked about before, or even our first partners gave us.

Mel Robbins 1:00:05 Hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:00:06 And we also have so much inside of us that's unresolved, that that comes out in four ways. And these four things are comparison, criticism, complaining, and control. We think that if we do these four things, we feel better about ourselves, our partner may change, and overall, this is the language we've learned in how to talk to anyone.

Mel Robbins 1:00:35 Right.

Jay Shetty 1:00:35 And so what we do is we compare them to someone else, thinking that if they know what one of our friends did for their anniversary, then our partner will get their act together.

Mel Robbins 1:00:44 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:00:45 No one in the history of comparison has ever changed their life because they were compared to someone else.

Mel Robbins 1:00:51 It's true.

Jay Shetty 1:00:51 You don't make someone act better by making them feel inferior. It doesn't work that way. People act better because they feel inspired to, they feel called to, they feel energized in their life. But we try and use comparison.If someone else is trying to control you, it can often come in the form of care. It can look like care, but it's actually control, and there's only one way to know. Is someone giving you care in the way you want to better you, or are they doing it to make you more comfortable and convenient for them? Are they telling you what to wear, or are they telling you which of your friends are a good influence on you?

Mel Robbins 1:01:34 Oh.

Jay Shetty 1:01:34 When you hear that, you think, "Oh, they might actually care about me. They might actually care about me, because they're telling me these friends are a bad influence, these friends are a good influence. But wait a minute, I've never actually told them what I even do with these friends. I've never even told them." And by the way, I did some of this when I met Radhi. When I met Radhi, I would look at some of her friends and I'd think, "Well, I don't think they're a good influence on her," and even if it came from a place of care, I realized that wasn't my position. Some of these friends had been in her life far longer than I'd been in her life.

Mel Robbins 1:02:06 Wow. That- that whole paradigm of ownership versus partnership.

Jay Shetty 1:02:11 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:02:12 Like, I hope that's a ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

Jay Shetty 1:02:15 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:02:15 Is somebody controlling you and trying to change you and own what you're doing, or are they truly in partnership, supporting you with your goals-

Jay Shetty 1:02:25 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:02:25 ... and hearing you?

Jay Shetty 1:02:27 And it applies the other way too, Mel. I think a lot of us who are in personal growth, who are in self-development, we have a bad habit of wanting to improve our partners, but not in the way they want, in the way we want. The amount of people that come to me and say, "Jay, I'm like really begging my partner to read your book," and I'm like, "Please don't."

Mel Robbins 1:02:46 (laughs)

Jay Shetty 1:02:47 Like, please don't. I mean it, because I want you to actually stay together, and maybe what they need to do is they need to watch one of my interviews with an athlete they love.

Mel Robbins 1:02:56 Hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:02:56 Maybe that's what they need to do.

Mel Robbins 1:02:57 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:02:57 Maybe they don't even need to learn from me. Maybe they need to learn from a completely different person, and maybe it's one of our friends, maybe it's someone else, maybe it's someone from decades ago. The- the point is, are you trying to get them to the next step in their journey, or are you trying to get them to the next step in your journey?

Mel Robbins 1:03:15 Oh, okay. Hold on everybody. Did you just hear that? Because that is literally-

Jay Shetty 1:03:20 (laughs) This is making me laugh.

Mel Robbins 1:03:21 That's it.

Jay Shetty 1:03:22 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:03:22 No, but so, like, I-

Jay Shetty 1:03:23 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:03:23 ... I- I really like to stop, because-

Jay Shetty 1:03:25 Yeah, yeah, no, it's beautiful. You do it so well.

Mel Robbins 1:03:27 I just-

Jay Shetty 1:03:27 You do it so well.

Mel Robbins 1:03:27 ... want everybody listening to get the wisdom that you are weaving together, because I think that's it right there. Are you trying to get them to step forward? You said it better.

Jay Shetty 1:03:40 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:03:40 Something about, like, you-

Jay Shetty 1:03:42 I was saying, I was saying, are you trying to get them to the next step in their journey, or are you trying to get them to the next step in your journey?

Jay Shetty 1:03:50 So, you may love listening to me and Mel, and that's beautiful, and I love that. And if your partner loves listening to me and Mel too, awesome. But chances are, they might like learning from a different voice and a different coach and a different teacher and a different guide. And guess what? That's okay, because what inspires them may be completely different. I've had clients before where I'm working with the wife or I'm working with the husband, and they want me to work with each other, and I'll say, "If they want to. If that person wants to learn from me, I'm all for it." But we have to allow people to select their own mentors. We have to allow people to select their own path. And by the way, I'll give you an example. There's- there's a- a couple that I know, and one of them finds knowledge and learning to be what growth means to them.

Mel Robbins 1:04:38 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:04:38 And one of them finds service.

Mel Robbins 1:04:40 Hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:04:41 So, one of them will happily go to a soup kitchen, a homeless shelter, and help out every week, and to them, that's growth. And to the other person, reading books, listening to podcasts, trying to study and be better is- is their form of growth. Now, could we honestly say one is better than the other? No. It's just two different paths, and probably they'll cross at one point if we don't push the other person away. But sometimes we push away the other person so far that our paths of growth never get to come together.

Mel Robbins 1:05:10 Yes, and I think you also have to be present enough to know when someone that you, quote, "love" is pushing you off your path.

Jay Shetty 1:05:20 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:05:20 That you're busy supporting them on theirs-

Jay Shetty 1:05:22 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:05:22 ... but they're not meeting you-

Jay Shetty 1:05:24 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:05:24 ... halfway.

Jay Shetty 1:05:25 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:05:25 Now,

Mel Robbins 1:05:26 one thing I am gonna disagree with you on-

Jay Shetty 1:05:28 (laughs) Please.

Mel Robbins 1:05:29 ... is that I do think you should send this episode-

Jay Shetty 1:05:33 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:05:33 ... to a person that you're in a relationship with, because I think it provides a tremendous amount of things to talk about.

Jay Shetty 1:05:42 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:05:43 And it might not be the same things that you think you want to talk about. But, you know, in closing, Jay, I just, you know, there's one more thing I wanted to ask you-

Jay Shetty 1:05:52 Please. Please.

Mel Robbins 1:05:53 ... and that is, um, I just keep thinking about this idea that the whole purpose of your relationship is to help your partner achieve their goals.

Jay Shetty 1:06:03 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:06:03 And if you're in a relationship where you are focused on their goals and they are focused on yours, that is true partnership.

Jay Shetty 1:06:13 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:06:14 Because you are showing up in a way that somebody really feels honored and seen and heard and supported, and you will feel the exact same way.

Jay Shetty 1:06:25 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:06:26 And it's so simple, and we make it so complicated. And so, I want to ask you one final thing.

Jay Shetty 1:06:31 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:06:33 Um, you know, I was w- obviously we're friends, but I did research before you came on, and I noticed this article in The Telegraph, and I did not realize that you had officiated J.Lo's wedding.

Jay Shetty 1:06:45 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:06:46 If you were to give someone

Mel Robbins 1:06:49 listening, 'cause I think that moment of a wedding, right, where you are really holding space for somebody's love and relationship, if you were to give the person listening right now one final thing to think-

Jay Shetty 1:07:07 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:07:08 ... about the purpose of love in their life-What would you say?

Jay Shetty 1:07:13 Mm. What a great question. And I want to add that when I do officiate anyone's wedding, it's a meditation that act-... And this is part of my practice and, and the tradition I learned as a monk, that if you ever got the opportunity to officiate anyone's wedding, and I was ordained in my tradition, but when the, when, even when we're doing an agnostic wedding, the idea is that you start meditating and praying for the couple from the moment you're asked.

Mel Robbins 1:07:43 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:07:44 So, the journey doesn't start on the day when you turn up. It starts from the moment you're asked and requested to do that. So, I usually start meditating anywhere from one to three months before, on that day, on that couple, on that union. So, I would say that we think that the greatest act of love is to give love, share love, feel love. But actually, the greatest act of love is loving someone so much that they learn to love themselves.

Mel Robbins 1:08:32 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:08:33 And that's the act of love, that you have loved someone so beautifully and deeply. Not that they feel loved by you, but that they've learned to love themselves. And I think that's hard. When we love out of ego and selfishness and pride, we make people feel impressed by how much we love them. I would not feel proud if Radhi would just feel, "I feel loved by my husband." That's great. That's awesome. I'd feel more proud if she said, "The way Jay loves me makes me love myself more."

Mel Robbins 1:09:08 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:09:08 And whenever I write about love, whenever I try and share love with friends, family, team members, anyone in, anyone that I cross paths with, my only goal is to hope that the way I love them will help them fall in love with themselves, and that what I see in them, they'll see in themselves. And that what I don't see in them, they'll discover within themselves. And so, I think whether it's marriage, whether it's moving in, whether it's a long-term relationship, that's what I'd have to say.

Mel Robbins 1:09:35 Beautiful. And what I want to say is, in case nobody else tells you today, Jay and I want to tell you...

Jay Shetty 1:09:43 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:09:43 ... that we love you.

Jay Shetty 1:09:44 Yeah, absolutely.

Mel Robbins 1:09:45 And we believe in you.

Jay Shetty 1:09:46 Absolutely.

Mel Robbins 1:09:47 And your ability to feel, express, give, and receive the love that you deserve-

Jay Shetty 1:09:55 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:09:55 ... in your life.

Jay Shetty 1:09:57 And start noticing all the love that is there in your life.

Mel Robbins 1:10:01 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:10:01 And you'll start feeling and finding the one that isn't. Because you are loved by your brother, sister, family, child, dog, cat. Like, you, you are loved. You're loved by Mel and me. You, you are loved. And if we start noticing how loved we are, we'll find that we're not as drained of love as we feel we are.

Mel Robbins 1:10:25 Mm. Ladies and gentlemen-

Jay Shetty 1:10:27 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:10:27 ... dogs and cats, everybody out there... (clapping)

Jay Shetty 1:10:29 (clapping)

Mel Robbins 1:10:29 ... Jay Shetty!

Jay Shetty 1:10:32 Mel Robbins, everyone! Mel!

Mel Robbins 1:10:33 (screaming)

Jay Shetty 1:10:34 Mel, you're amazing.

Mel Robbins 1:10:35 Oh, I love you.

Jay Shetty 1:10:35 I love you, too. Thank you for pushing me there. You've been challenging me. Thank you for really getting to the heart of it, because you have to. And obviously, the book does that, but, but I'm glad we got there, too, so-

Mel Robbins 1:10:43 I wore my red pants for you.

Jay Shetty 1:10:45 I love it.

Mel Robbins 1:10:45 I, like, dressed-

Jay Shetty 1:10:46 You're so on brand.

Mel Robbins 1:10:46 ... like your fricking book.

Jay Shetty 1:10:47 You're so on brand. It's amazing. And I went all black to match.

Mel Robbins 1:10:50 (laughs)

Jay Shetty 1:10:50 Hey, look! Us together-

Mel Robbins 1:10:52 We match!

Jay Shetty 1:10:52 ... we do it! We do it!

Mel Robbins 1:10:53 We match!

Narrator 1:10:53 Wow.

1:10:53 (laughs)

Jay Shetty 1:10:53 Honestly, you two make beautiful-

Mel Robbins 1:10:55 Oh! One more thing. (instrumental music plays) It's the legal language. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Hey, it's Mel. Thank you so much for being here. If you enjoyed that video, by God, please subscribe 'cause I don't want you to miss a thing. Thank you so much for being here. We've got so much amazing stuff coming. Thank you so much for sending this stuff to your friends and your family. I love you. We create these videos for you, so make sure you subscribe. Mwah!