Skip to content
The Mel Robbins PodcastThe Mel Robbins Podcast

This Simple Mindset Shift Will Change the Way You See Your Life

Life doesn’t always go according to plan. Even the changes you choose can bring uncertainty, questions, and moments where you wonder what’s next. Today’s episode will show you how to move forward and find something better on the other side. In it, Mel sits down with Dr. Maya Shankar, a cognitive scientist, expert on change, and New York Times bestselling author, for a powerful conversation about why change feels so hard and, more importantly, how to move on to become an even stronger, wiser version of yourself. If you’re trying to figure out how to leave the past behind and reinvent yourself when life doesn’t go the way you planned, this conversation will meet you exactly where you are – and help you see what’s possible. Together, Mel and Dr. Shankar unpack the science behind rebuilding when life takes an unexpected turn – and why you don’t need to have everything figured out to move forward. By the end, you’ll understand how to reshape the way you see yourself, stop negative thoughts from taking over, and move forward with clarity and confidence. You’ll learn: -How to leave the past in the past -The reset to help you start over after a setback -How to stop your mind from spiraling -Real motivation strategies to make change easier when you feel tired, stressed, or stuck - The reassuring mindset shift for more confidence and peace This episode will give you the mental reset and the tools you need to restart your life, move forward, and step into who you’re meant to be. For more resources related to today’s episode, click here for the podcast episode page: https://www.melrobbins.com/episode/episode-381. Follow The Mel Robbins Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themelrobbinspodcast I’m just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is NOT intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I’ll see you in the next episode. In this episode: 0:00 Meet the Guest 4:01 When the Future You Planned Disappears (Divorce, Layoff, Loss) 9:35 Why Change is So Scary 11:32 How to Cope With Change: Small Shifts That Help Fast 15:30 How to Stop Fear of the Future (Your Brain Gets It Wrong) 18:42 Identity Foreclosure: When One Role Becomes Your Whole Identity 23:43 How to Cope With an Identity Crisis 25:37 Stuck in a Mental Spiral? Here’s Why It Happens + How to Stop It 28:00 Cognitive Reappraisal: The Reframe That Calms Your Nervous System 30:52 Mental Time Travel (Stop Overwhelm) 34:31 Visual Self-Distancing (Instant Perspective Shift) 38:24 When Distraction Is Healthy (And Why TV + Reading Helps You Reinvent Yourself) 41:59 The Key to Unlocking Your Brain’s Full Potential 43:08 Motivation Science: How to Get Yourself to Change Bad Habits — Follow Mel: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melrobbins/ TikTok: http://tiktok.com/@melrobbins Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melrobbins LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melrobbins Website: http://melrobbins.com​ — Sign up for Mel’s newsletter: https://melrob.co/sign-up-newsletter A note from Mel to you, twice a week, sharing simple, practical ways to build the life you want. — Subscribe to Mel’s channel here: https://www.youtube.com/melrobbins​?sub_confirmation=1 — Listen to The Mel Robbins Podcast 🎧 New episodes drop every Monday & Thursday! https://melrob.co/spotify https://melrob.co/applepodcasts https://melrob.co/amazonmusic — Looking for Mel’s books on Amazon? Find them here: The Let Them Theory: https://amzn.to/3IQ21Oe The Let Them Theory Audiobook: https://amzn.to/413SObp The High 5 Habit: https://amzn.to/3fMvfPQ The 5 Second Rule: https://amzn.to/4l54fah

Dr. Maya ShankarguestMel Robbinshost
Mar 26, 202652mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 4:01

    Meet the Guest

    1. MS

      Everyone listening right now who is afraid of a change they're currently navigating or they're going to have to navigate in the future, and they think, "I can't possibly get through this," the right question is not, "How am I going to get through this?" It's, "How will that new version of me navigate this change?"

    2. MR

      Maya Shankar earned her PhD in cognitive neuroscience from Oxford. She served as a senior advisor in the White House under President Obama. Now, she's the author of the New York Times bestseller, The Other Side of Change. When you go through a divorce or you get fired from a job, that change really makes you question, who am I?

    3. MS

      We don't know sometimes how much something has come to define who we are until we lose it.

    4. MR

      I wanna go back to the beginning.

    5. MS

      Okay. Little Maya, age six, that's when I started playing the violin. Fell in love with it immediately. I would practice for hours. I was studying at Julliard. I was soloing with orchestras, winning concerto competitions, and then I overstretched my pinky finger, and doctors would later tell me it was a career-ending injury, that my dreams were over.

    6. MR

      What do you say to a person who's dealing with that kind of destabilizing change?

    7. MS

      For the person who's in the throes of it, who cannot see beyond their pain, this is the technique that has completely transformed my life. It's called-

    8. MR

      Maya Shankar, welcome to The Mel Robbins Podcast.

    9. MS

      Thank you so much for having me, Mel.

    10. MR

      I am so excited. You came in here like a tornado.

    11. MS

      [laughs]

    12. MR

      I can tell that you are ready to inspire and teach and motivate, and you have been waiting to talk about this topic. And the way I wanna start is, how could my life be different if I take everything you're about to teach me today about change, managing it, creating it, surviving it, if I really take it to heart-

    13. MS

      Mm-hmm

    14. MR

      ... and I apply it to my life? How mu- how's my life gonna change?

    15. MS

      I think we've all heard this mantra that while we can't control what happens to us, we can control our reaction to what happens. And if you're anything like me, you're like, "Okay, yeah, that sounds good, but how the heck do I actually do that," right? It's not like there's some sort of switch in my brain that I can flip on that's suddenly gonna make me feel more peaceful or more enlightened or more curious, right? If there's one thing that I've learned over the years, it's that we can change our relationship with change. We can come to see the hardest moments in our lives not just as something to survive, but as an opportunity to reimagine who we are, to unlock our full potential-

    16. MR

      Uh-huh

    17. MS

      ... to discover extraordinary things about ourselves and what we're capable of. And all of that surfaces in the throes of a big disruption.

    18. MR

      But when you're facing it-

    19. MS

      Mm-hmm

    20. MR

      ... you don't want to be in it.

    21. MS

      Exactly.

    22. MR

      And you're saying that you're gonna teach us how to change the way we relate to those moments as we're going through them?

    23. MS

      I'm coming at all of this as someone who hates change. I feel so uncomfortable by change, and I feel like it brings out the worst of my anxieties. And so, the reason why I've been so heartened to realize this from the research and all the interviews I've done is because I needed to change my relationship with change, and so I'm here to tell everyone listening, if I could do it, I promise you, you can do it, too.

    24. MR

      You host a podcast about change. Now you're the author of a book about how to reinvent yourself when life takes a turn. But this all started because of a need for you to reinvent yourself, your identity, your future, all of it. So, I wanna go back to the beginning.

    25. MS

      Okay.

  2. 4:01 – 9:35

    When the Future You Planned Disappears (Divorce, Layoff, Loss)

    1. MS

      So we're gonna-

    2. MR

      And let's talk about what happened

    3. MS

      ... we're gonna have to take the time machine back to little Maya, age six. Um, that's when I started playing the violin.

    4. MR

      'Kay.

    5. MS

      And Mel, I f- fell in love with it immediately.

    6. MR

      From the moment you picked it up?

    7. MS

      Absolutely. So, my grandmother in India had played the violin as a hobby growing up.

    8. MR

      Uh-huh.

    9. MS

      And I remember one day, my mom went up to her attic and brought down her dusty violin that she had brought with her when she immigrated from India to the US, and she opened the case, and it was like magic. I remember very quickly asking my mom, "Okay, can you get me, like, a pint-sized violin?" [laughs] "A little, little version of this?" And my parents had to ask me to do a lot of things, but they never, for whatever reason, had to ask me to practice. So, I would just run home from the bus stop after school. I would practice for hours. And I remember when I was around nine years old, we were in New York City. I had my violin with me, and we walked by the Julliard School of Music. Now, this was my dream school, okay? I mean, I would, I would lay in bed at night and just imagine that one day I might be able to study there. And so my mom looks at me and she goes, "Why don't we just walk in?" Uh-

    10. MR

      To Julliard?

    11. MS

      To Julliard.

    12. MR

      You're nine.

    13. MS

      I was nine.

    14. MR

      Okay.

    15. MS

      And I was like, "What are you talking about? [laughs] We are not invited." [laughs] And she goes, "I mean, Maya, what's the worst thing that could happen?" And I, I said to her, "Security guards. That's the worst thing that could happen." But she was just fearless, and she's like, "We're going in." 30 minutes later, I'm auditioning for a Julliard teacher on the spot.

    16. MR

      Really?

    17. MS

      Yes. He tells my mom afterwards, "I'm willing to take Maya on as a student this summer, and to basically put her through a boot camp to try to get her ready for the Julliard audition in the fall." And I went to the summer camp. I was heads down. I really skilled up technically. I got so much better in that time period. And guess what? I got into Julliard in the fall. I was studying at Julliard. I was soloing with orchestras, winning concerto competitions. The renowned violinist Itzhak Perlman invited me to be his private student. And then I was studying at Perlman's music program one summer, was 15 years old, and-I overstretched my finger on a single note. I overstretched my pinky finger playing this very challenging technical piece, and I heard a popping sound, and it turned out that I had damaged tendons in my hand. And doctors would later tell me that it, it was a career-ending injury, that my dreams were over.

    18. MR

      What is that like to hear at the age of 15?

    19. MS

      I was in denial, I think like most people listening would be, right? I was also... I was in a rebellious mode, so I also didn't wanna listen to them, right? I kept playing and practicing through pain. I was taking excessive anti-inflammatories. I was doing every physical therapy exercise in the book, every possible treatment. I ended up getting surgery. That didn't work. Finally, I had to face the facts, but it was very, very hard. And I think, I think grief is actually the best way to describe what my emotional state was like because there was something so curious about my grief when I think back to it. I wasn't just grieving the loss of the instrument. I was grieving the loss of myself-

    20. MR

      Hmm

    21. MS

      ... at this much more fundamental level. We don't know sometimes how much something has come to define who we are until we lose it.

    22. MR

      Yeah.

    23. MS

      And we feel so unmoored and so disoriented, and, like, there's nothing that makes us special anymore.

    24. MR

      And what's relatable about that story is that you don't have to be a violinist to understand that when you go through a divorce, or you get fired from a job, or you get booted from the team that you used to be on, or you even move from the neighborhood to a new town-

    25. MS

      Yeah

    26. MR

      ... that that change really makes you question, "Who am I? What do I want?" Like, e- uh, even if you think you know what you want, you, you pick a certain major, or you go into a certain profession, and you start doing it, and you're like, "Do I really wanna be a lawyer? Do I really wanna be a nurse?"

    27. MS

      Yeah.

    28. MR

      Like, "Is this, is this really?" Is this really... And, and you start to question yourself.

    29. MS

      Because that's the thing about self-identities. They project us into the future. So every future I had imagined for myself had now disappeared from view. But what we can do is we can expand our self-identity so that it is more robust in the face of change. Now, what do I mean by that? My advice is to define yourself not just by what you do, but by why you do it. Okay, so let me ask that question for the violin. If I stripped away all the superficial features of playing music-

    30. MR

      Mm-hmm

  3. 9:35 – 11:32

    Why Change is So Scary

    1. MS

      I'm expressing it right now in this conversation-

    2. MR

      Wow. Uh-huh

    3. MS

      ... with you and your listeners.

    4. MR

      What do you say to a person who's dealing with that kind of destabilizing change, whether you're going through a divorce, you have a life-altering diagnosis-

    5. MS

      Mm-hmm

    6. MR

      ... you just lost somebody that you love, and they're having trouble seeing beyond just the pain of this moment?

    7. MS

      Yeah. First of all, I feel you. [laughs] It is a deeply painful and disorienting process. There is so much research showing why change is so scary. I mean, for one, it is filled with so much uncertainty, and our brains are not wired to like uncertainty. I think another reason why change is, is so hard is that at the end of the day, and I know you and I share this in common, we like having a firm grip of the steering wheel. We like believing that we are dictating how our lives turn out, and most of us humans fall prey to what's called the illusion of control, where we wildly overestimate the degree to which we're actually in the driver's seat. And so for the person who's in the throes of it right now, who cannot see beyond their pain, I wanna share a personal story. Um, the last six or seven years have been really tough, uh, for my husband and me. So we have been trying to start a family. We've been unsuccessful. We've had to navigate so many disappointments, and obstacles, and heartbreaks, and dealing with pregnancy losses has left me reeling. Because for someone who loves control, for someone who loves outworking every challenge she faces, guess what? No such thing as outworking fertility stuff.

  4. 11:32 – 15:30

    How to Cope With Change: Small Shifts That Help Fast

    1. MS

      So we had found out, um, that we lost identical twin girls-

    2. MR

      Hmm

    3. MS

      ... with our surrogate, and I was beside myself. I was in our bedroom, covers over my head, and sobbing, and my husband comes in, husband Jimmy, and he says, "Let's just do a quick gratitude exercise." And I was like, "Hell nah, okay? [laughs] How dare you. You take your Instagram BS, go into the corner with your toxic positivity, and I'm gonna stay under the covers and sulk because that is my reality right now. P.S. I still love you, okay?" But I was so pissed. So anyway, finally, he kinda wears me down. I'm like, "You know what? I'm gonna do this damn thing just to get him off my case, all right?" So I start to rattle off a couple things. I'm like, "Well-"I guess I'm really grateful that I get to be an aunt to my six nieces and nephews. I love that I've gotten to work with the same people for, like, over a decade, and we still love working together. It's the greatest source of pride that the people I worked with in the White House still work with me today. So I start to do this, and the list just pours out of me, and I swear to God, something magical happened in that moment. I had been so single-mindedly focused on becoming a mom that I had developed tunnel vision, and I had completely forgotten about how otherwise rich and multidimensional my life was.

    4. MR

      Hmm.

    5. MS

      And in engaging in this practice... By the way, it's called a self-affirmation exercise. My husband, who's a software engineer, didn't know that that was what he was doing. But it basically just involves taking a few minutes to write down everything that gives your life meaning, every identity that makes you feel valuable, that has not been threatened by the change. And so I just want to remind everyone who is listening, the pain is real. It will persist. There are no instant fixes, but these small shifts in perspective can radically change-

    6. MR

      Hmm

    7. MS

      ... your orientation as you look at yourself and as you look at the world around you.

    8. MR

      I just wanna say to you, if you're listening or watching on YouTube and you had this, like, bristle for a moment, like I did and like Maya did when her husband, with the best of intentions, tried this, there are gonna be those moments in life where you're not only gonna be under the sheets for a day, you might be there for a week or a month. You might need to process things for a year or a cou- And that's okay. What I want you to know is wherever you are, the moment that you're ready to pull the sheets down, you're ready to start moving forward through this change that you do not want, that is not fair, that is just horrible to have to process and accept, that the tools are there as frameworks to help guide you as you move forward.

    9. MS

      Yeah.

    10. MR

      One of the things I wanted to add to this is that if you're processing a loss, and you're going through the experience of grief, that it takes a lot of time to come to terms with the loss that you have. And we had this extraordinary expert on grief, David Kessler, on the podcast, and he shared this statistic that I found to be so empowering, that the average time period when somebody seeks support after losing a loved one is between five and 10 years. And so if you've been living with grief for a while, what David Kessler says is, "The moment that you're ready to seek help is the perfect

  5. 15:30 – 18:42

    How to Stop Fear of the Future (Your Brain Gets It Wrong)

    1. MR

      time." You know, in your research, Dr. Shankar, you say that people are not great at predicting how change is actually gonna impact them. Can you explain?

    2. MS

      Yeah. So we are notoriously bad affective forecasters. All that means is that we are so bad at predicting how we are gonna feel about events in the future.

    3. MR

      Okay.

    4. MS

      This is really important for us to know.

    5. MR

      It is?

    6. MS

      We overestimate how bad the bad things are gonna be.

    7. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    8. MS

      And we also overestimate how good the good things are gonna be. I lost my job, for example.

    9. MR

      Yes.

    10. MS

      It's going to completely ruin me, and I will never regain the current happiness level I have.

    11. MR

      Got it.

    12. MS

      And then I also think, "If I get this promotion-

    13. MR

      Oh

    14. MS

      ... I'm gonna be happy forever." But actually, we just revert right back down to what's called our happiness set point.

    15. MR

      Okay. So whether it's a loss or it's a gain, after you experience the emotion of the loss or the gain, you tend to settle back to where you used to be.

    16. MS

      Yeah. Or at a minimum, it's never as bad or as good as we thought it was gonna be.

    17. MR

      Now, why is it important to know that?

    18. MS

      The reason it's important to know that is because at the outset of a change, when we're feeling so daunted by our ability to get through it, we want to have that reassurance that it's actually never gonna be as bad as we think. But one of the biggest reasons why we get it wrong is that we forget that we too will change as a result of the experience. We are a work in progress, and we forget that as the world is changing around us and as a change is happening to us, it is also creating lasting change within us.

    19. MR

      I just saw what you were talking about, that you, with the person you are in this moment, you think you can predict how you're gonna feel and who you're gonna be in a future moment. But the truth is, the person that you are right now will not be present for the future moment-

    20. MS

      Exactly

    21. MR

      ... because you are going to have changed based on what's happening to you next.

    22. MS

      100%. We somehow think that the version that we are today is like the f- is the final version, the fully enlightened version of Maya. But here's the thing. We become different people on the other side of change.

    23. MR

      Hmm.

    24. MS

      And so when you are feeling so scared and daunted, everyone listening right now who is afraid of a change that is they're currently navigating or they're going to have to navigate in the future, and they think, "I can't possibly get through this," the right question is not, "How am I going to get through this?" It's, "How will I, with new abilities and perspectives and values and capabilities, how will that new version of me navigate this change?"

    25. MR

      Hmm.

    26. MS

      There is something so reassuring in that message because time and time again, everyone I talk to says, "You know-I wouldn't have willed this negative change to happen, but damn am I grateful for the person I became as-

    27. MR

      Mm

    28. MS

      ... a result of it. I am so different than I was before.

  6. 18:42 – 23:43

    Identity Foreclosure: When One Role Becomes Your Whole Identity

    1. MR

      What is identity foreclosure?

    2. MS

      So identity foreclosure is something I actually experienced as a little kid. I didn't have a name for it, of course. Um, but it's when we anchor our identity to something prematurely-

    3. MR

      Hmm

    4. MS

      ... without having explored all other available options. So when it came to the violin, I just kind of attached myself to that moving train, and I jumped on it, and I was just like, "Off to the races, okay."

    5. MR

      I'm gonna be a concert violinist.

    6. MS

      Yeah.

    7. MR

      That's my identity.

    8. MS

      Yeah.

    9. MR

      Okay.

    10. MS

      And what that, what identity for- foreclosure does is that it prevents us from more consciously building these multifaceted identities. We inherit labels and identities from our families, from our teachers, from our friends, from our communities.

    11. MR

      Hmm.

    12. MS

      But we aren't always interrogating what they are or making proactive choices that help expand them.

    13. MR

      I have a friend who always wanted to get married.

    14. MS

      Yeah.

    15. MR

      And hasn't found the person.

    16. MS

      Yep.

    17. MR

      Not yet. And yet it's this thing that they wrestle with.

    18. MS

      Mm-hmm.

    19. MR

      And how do you handle that experience when you, it's something you've thought about for so long, you know?

    20. MS

      Yeah.

    21. MR

      And it hasn't happened yet.

    22. MS

      One of the topics that I explore in the book is called possible selves.

    23. MR

      Ooh.

    24. MS

      And it-

    25. MR

      I like that.

    26. MS

      [laughs] And here's the basic premise.

    27. MR

      Okay.

    28. MS

      So all the time we are generating possible selves as we go about our lives. So when your friend is thinking about one day wanting to be married, she's generating a possible self.

    29. MR

      Yes.

    30. MS

      When Mel decided, "Hey, you know what? I think I should do a podcast," she was imagining a possible self. When I, as a teenager, learned that she could no longer play the violin and had to figure out how to find some way to reinvent herself, she too was generating a possible self.

  7. 23:43 – 25:37

    How to Cope With an Identity Crisis

    1. MR

      I wanna hover for just a second on this identity foreclosure thing, and I'd like to focus on the experience of when you have something when you're young-

    2. MS

      Mm

    3. MR

      ... that then you can no longer do. And I'm just curious, is there any research or any specific advice that you have to somebody who was, like, the star athlete-

    4. MS

      Yeah

    5. MR

      ... and all of a sudden they don't have sports? Or who was the star math student-

    6. MS

      Yes

    7. MR

      ... and now they're in the corporate wor- world and they're just lost. Like, it's sort of the, y- can you talk-

    8. MS

      I-

    9. MR

      ... a little bit about this?

    10. MS

      Yes.

    11. MR

      'Cause-

    12. MS

      Yes. Just because they've lost the ability to do that thing, just because they're not the star athlete anymore, just because they're not the top math student, doesn't mean that all of the soft and hard skills that they built-All the experiences they had, all the wisdom and knowledge they accrued as a result of doing those things, can't serve them meaningfully in what comes next. So we feel like we lost everything. But actually, it turns out, when it comes to the violin, guess what I'm still holding onto? All that grit. Guess what else I'm using? That fearlessness. Going on stage as a little kid, performing in front of thousands of people. That's helping me today in my roles that I have, right, as a writer, podcaster, cognitive scientist. And so, the relevant question to ask themselves when they're no longer that math student or that star soccer player is, who else can this person be?

    13. MR

      You apply the worth to the label.

    14. MS

      Exactly.

    15. MR

      And when the label is gone, an identity foreclosure happens. We make the mistake of thinking that all of the value that was underneath the surface is gone, too.

    16. MS

      That's exactly right.

  8. 25:37 – 28:00

    Stuck in a Mental Spiral? Here’s Why It Happens + How to Stop It

    1. MR

      I wanna read to you, uh, from chapter three of your book. "Most of us know what it's like to get caught in a negative mental spiral. Any number of things can trigger these unrelenting, suffocating loops, but the catalyst is typically a change in our lives. Our new anxieties, regrets, and uncertainties can take on a life of their own, and become a bigger challenge to deal with than the change itself. These thoughts become like mind worms, nestling in our psyches, hijacking our attention, and stoking our biggest fears. What's wrong with me? How could I not have seen this coming? How could they do that to me? What's going to happen?" Let's talk about what to do when you are stuck in a mental spiral.

    2. MS

      So, we talked about how our brains aren't wired to like uncertainty. We want what's called cognitive closure.

    3. MR

      Cognitive closure?

    4. MS

      Yes.

    5. MR

      What is that?

    6. MS

      What that means is, we want black-and-white answers. We want clear, definitive answers.

    7. MR

      Yeah, I want the possible self that I'm hoping for and the possible self that I expected. I don't want any of the stuff in between.

    8. MS

      Exactly.

    9. MR

      Okay.

    10. MS

      But guess what? When a big change happens, and we climb out from the rubble, there's no black and white. It's all gray. [laughs] And that makes us feel so much anxiety. Certainly makes me feel anxiety. I don't like being out of control. And when you're in the throes of change, all you feel is out of control. So what does our mind do?

    11. MR

      I don't know. Well, it starts spiraling, but why does it do that?

    12. MS

      It starts-

    13. MR

      It's so not helpful.

    14. MS

      Exactly. It starts spiraling. Because it's trying to regain control in the way that it knows how, which is, we think, "Maybe I can outthink this problem." But it's fool's gold. You think, "If I could just figure out..." Let's say you're, you're navigating a breakup. "If I could just figure out why he stopped loving me-"

    15. MR

      Hmm

    16. MS

      ... "then I can finally move on and enter another relationship." "If I can just figure out all the ways that I can keep my family safe, then I can actually move on peacefully." "If I can analyze every mistake I've made in the past, and every regret I possibly have, then I'll never make those regrets in the future." So we have this false sense that we're actually making progress on the problems and challenges we're facing, but we're actually just looping over the same negative thoughts over and over again. Because a lot of questions in life don't actually have answers.

    17. MR

      Hmm.

    18. MS

      But our brains, they don't, they haven't caught up to that

  9. 28:00 – 30:52

    Cognitive Reappraisal: The Reframe That Calms Your Nervous System

    1. MS

      wisdom yet.

    2. MR

      So you've got all these tools. God, do we need this. Let's start with the first one. Cognitive reappraisal. What is that?

    3. MS

      Cognitive reappraisal is, again, one of those fancy pants terms that doesn't need to be fancy. Which simply means that we interpret a situation differently in order to alter the emotional impact it has on us.

    4. MR

      Okay, so let me try to put that in a way that I would understand. You are going to gaslight yourself?

    5. MS

      [laughs]

    6. MR

      Or you're gonna put nicer icing on the cake-

    7. MS

      You're gonna... Yeah

    8. MR

      ... in order to get you to direct yourself at the expected or the hoped and not the fear? Is that what you're doing here? What are you doing?

    9. MS

      You're going to change the way you think about a situation. You have a s- you have a gut reaction-

    10. MR

      Okay

    11. MS

      ... to your being a certain way.

    12. MR

      Okay.

    13. MS

      Or a situation unfolding in a certain way.

    14. MR

      Yes.

    15. MS

      And you're going to deliberately change your interpretation.

    16. MR

      Would this be an example of one? 'Cause I talked to somebody who, uh, on this podcast, who is an expert in grief, and he said something that I will never, ever, ever forget, which is, if you are in a spiral around what ifs, what if, what if, what if, what if this, what if that. And I actually used this on the phone with my mom this morning, because they had a friend who died over the weekend very, very suddenly.

    17. MS

      Hmm.

    18. MR

      And I shared this little reframe with her. So David Kessler, mom, just did an episode with us, and he suggests that you say, "Even if." Even if.

    19. MS

      Hmm.

    20. MR

      Even if. And I find, I found it to be so powerful.

    21. MS

      Yeah.

    22. MR

      Because if the person is gone, there is nothing that brings them back. And all of the worrying that we're doing, which is trying to make sense of it, which is super, super, super normal, doesn't actually do anything, but make you feel this false sense like there could've been something.

    23. MS

      Mm-hmm.

    24. MR

      And so, the even if, I thought was really powerful, and I could see how you could use even if in a breakup. Even if I did this. Even if I did that. Even if I did the other thing.

    25. MS

      Mm-hmm.

    26. MR

      Is that an example of what you're talking about?

    27. MS

      Yeah. You're, you're reframing a situation, and it's altering the way you feel about it.

    28. MR

      100%.

    29. MS

      That's reappraisal.

    30. MR

      Yeah. It doesn't mean that it wasn't fair. It doesn't mean that it-

  10. 30:52 – 34:31

    Mental Time Travel (Stop Overwhelm)

    1. MR

      You have another one that you reference, which is mental time travel.

    2. MS

      Yes. So our brains have a remarkable ability to go into the past and into the future, and this can be an asset to us when we are navigating a really frustrating mental spiral.

    3. MR

      You've actually taught us a lot about that, 'cause you've taught us that we can look back at the past and go, "Well, I'm not that person anymore."

    4. MS

      [laughs]

    5. MR

      Like, I look at the college version of myself. I'm like, "That was peak dysfunction, Mel. Uh, I'm not that person anymore."

    6. MS

      Yeah.

    7. MR

      Thank God. And you've also said that this possible, the possible selves are a way that you project into the future.

    8. MS

      Yeah, so-

    9. MR

      So you've proven that to us.

    10. MS

      Yeah, so... And it's... If there's a specific topic to your rumination, what you can do is you can travel into the future-

    11. MR

      Mm-hmm

    12. MS

      ... and say, "So Maya at 3:00 in the morning wakes up ruminating," right? What I need to do in that moment as I'm replaying this extremely frustrating encounter-

    13. MR

      Yeah

    14. MS

      ... let's say with a coworker.

    15. MR

      Okay.

    16. MS

      Right? Or let's say with a receptionist or whatever it is.

    17. MR

      Okay.

    18. MS

      I ask myself, "How am I gonna feel about this five hours from now, five days from now, and five years from now?" And what that quick mental exercise does, it's just five seconds of thinking, is it reminds you that your current situation is transient, and the problem, your current preoccupation, is probably going to feel less significant-

    19. MR

      Mm

    20. MS

      ... to you moving forward. And what I've done in those moments where I feel like I am still gonna be worried in, whatever, five years, is to mine my past, and surface moments in which I was similarly convinced that I was gonna be stuck in this mental spiral indefinitely, but I turned out to be wrong.

    21. MR

      Mm.

    22. MS

      Or moments where I showed resilience in the face of adversity that I did not think I had. And so we can leverage, we can go into the past, we can also go into the past, by the way, when we're scared of what's happening globally. And we can say, "Look, it's not the first time humanity has faced-

    23. MR

      Mm

    24. MS

      ... these sorts of challenges that we're going through right now, but a combination of self-sacrifice and collective action led us to a better spot." So th- this is a... Mental time travel is a wonderfully flexible, helpful tool. And, and here's the other thing, Mel. Not everyone has the ability to just, like, get on a jet and be like, "Okay, I'm gonna reinvent myself by, like, moving to another country, and I'm gonna quit my job." And it's like, no, most of us have to keep our jobs, okay? And most of us have to live in the homes or apartments that we're currently in.

    25. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    26. MS

      And so my goal was to figure out, well, how can we have that reinvention happen in here? I-

    27. MR

      And in here, by the way, if you're listening, she's pointing to her brain.

    28. MS

      Yeah, to my brain.

    29. MR

      This is a really important note, that reinvention, we think about it, and we think about the thing that you put on your vision board. We think about the future that you're gonna cast forward that you can visualize and all the physical stuff and what it's gonna look like. You're saying that true reinvention when it comes to yourself and moments of change happens internally in your own mind.

    30. MS

      That's exactly right. Because we cannot control, in fact, what happens to us. That is the nature of let them.

  11. 34:31 – 38:24

    Visual Self-Distancing (Instant Perspective Shift)

    1. MR

      Visual self-distancing, what is that?

    2. MS

      Yeah, so what we're trying to do with this tool is just create as much psychological distance as we can between us and the problem we're trying to solve.

    3. MR

      Okay.

    4. MS

      Because oftentimes when we're immersed in it, we have all of these heated emotions, and we're feeling pissed off, or feeling frustrated, or-

    5. MR

      A lot of pe-

    6. MS

      ... we're feeling a lot of regret.

    7. MR

      Let's use an example. Lot of people are losing their jobs right now.

    8. MS

      Yes.

    9. MR

      And so let's use this tool of visual self-distancing to help somebody who's in a situation where they have just lost their job.

    10. MS

      Yep.

    11. MR

      And now they feel like a loser.

    12. MS

      Yep.

    13. MR

      And now they feel flat-footed because of all of the change in the ways that people are working. How do I use this to get out of that negative self-talk?

    14. MS

      So visual self-distancing means taking a bird's-eye view on your problems.

    15. MR

      Okay.

    16. MS

      Because here's the thing. If you're a first-person narrator-

    17. MR

      Yeah

    18. MS

      ... of your own situation, here's what you're saying afterward.

    19. MR

      What does that sound like?

    20. MS

      "I'm a loser."

    21. MR

      Yep.

    22. MS

      "I have no future. I'm pathetic. No one's gonna respect me anymore. I don't love myself. How could anyone ever love me?"

    23. MR

      "I'm too old. I can't figure this out."

    24. MS

      Yep.

    25. MR

      "I've screwed up my career."

    26. MS

      Yeah. Also, "I'm so intimidated by having to learn this new set of skills."

    27. MR

      Yes.

    28. MS

      "What am I gonna do?" That's what the self-talk version looks like and why it turns negative so quickly. Because at the end of the day, most people have the least amount of compassion for themselves.

    29. MR

      True.

    30. MS

      That's certainly me. I have so much compassion for other people. I reserve, Mel, roughly 0.2% for myself.

  12. 38:24 – 41:59

    When Distraction Is Healthy (And Why TV + Reading Helps You Reinvent Yourself)

    1. MR

      say distraction can be a tool to get out of the past and this negative self-talk, and I need to hear more about this, because distraction is a very negative thing in the world right now.

    2. MS

      Yes. I think there is a really harmful popular narrative that if we don't persistently and directly confront our negative emotions after some negative change happens in our lives, those emotions are gonna rear their ugly head with greater vengeance down the line. The research actually shows that the story is much more complex. Distraction is a very helpful, productive tool for a lot of people. If you find that watching Netflix, having a conversation with a friend, going on a run is bringing you joy on any given day, and you don't feel like those negative emotions are trying to, like, force their way through, and you're actively suppressing them, chances are it's a really good tool for you to be using. And so what I, what I hate about that narrative, Mel, is that I don't want people to feel both the burden of their grief or the challenge they're going through, and then an additional burden that the techniques they're using aren't the right way-

    3. MR

      Hmm

    4. MS

      ... to get through their trauma or whatever negative situation they're going through. There is actually no right way. Individual differences play a massive role, so if distraction's working for you, you do you. Another thing that's fairly easy to do is to read fiction.

    5. MR

      Huh.

    6. MS

      So researchers call fiction an identity laboratory, because what you're able to do when you're reading fiction is to freely explore and try on for fit, if you will, new identities. You can anticipate how you would respond at different junctures. You can take risks that you would never take in normal life, right? You can, um, you can experiment with yourself. It's kind of like a playground.

    7. MR

      Hmm.

    8. MS

      And it's a totally psychologically safe space. And so we, as readers, we tend to blend our identities with the characters that we're reading, so that's one way to explore who else we can become. Another way is actually, um, this was just advice my dad gave me when I was at that juncture with the violin. So I'd just lost the ability to play. I was feeling down in the dumps, right? And I was-

    9. MR

      Identity foreclosure, baby

    10. MS

      [laughs] Yes.

    11. MR

      My possible dreams, my... Who I expected, gone.

    12. MS

      Gone. It's the summer before college. I thought I was gonna major in music performance. Now, I have no idea what my major is gonna be, right? Um, and my dad looked at me, and he was like, "You've been wearing blinders for 10 years. Your job this summer, in addition to doing your job that you're working this summer-

    13. MR

      [laughs]

    14. MS

      ... is to expose yourself to as many ideas and worldviews as you possibly can. So by that, I mean watch documentaries, read books, watch TV.

    15. MR

      Hmm.

    16. MS

      Talk to people about their experiences. Talk to their parents about their experiences. But importantly, and this was the key part, Mel, you need to go on this quest with no end goal in mind. Because if you're trying desperately to figure out, "What's my major gonna be?" You're not gonna be as exploratory as you should.

    17. MR

      Hmm.

    18. MS

      Right? You're gonna preemptively close doors, 'cause you don't see them as possible.

    19. MR

      What about when you choose to make the change?

    20. MS

      Yes.

    21. MR

      Okay? So, you know, 'cause oftentimes-

    22. MS

      [laughs]

    23. MR

      ... you think it's gonna be good.

    24. MS

      Yes.

    25. MR

      But is there value

  13. 41:59 – 43:08

    The Key to Unlocking Your Brain’s Full Potential

    1. MR

      in creating change in your own life, even, you know, though it's gonna feel uncomfortable, and you're gonna be uncertain?

    2. MS

      I mean, discomfort is the key to unlocking our brain's potential. That's what the neuroscience shows. So we have this remarkable ability for neuroplasticity, which basically just means our brain can rewire itself in response to our experiences and the challenges we put in front of us. And so every time we put ourselves into an uncomfortable situation, we are boosting our brain. Here's the great thing, though. When we are in these positions where we're learning something new, when we're having to challenge ourselves because we're introducing change into our lives, we fail a lot. Failure is uncomfortable, but what failure does is it releases this powerful cocktail of neurochemicals that signal to the brain, "Hey, something's not working. The current setup is not serving me. I have to rewire things in order to get them right next time."

    3. MR

      Huh.

    4. MS

      And so-That is how we tap into this amazing neuroplasticity and keep ourselves sharp as long as we possibly can.

    5. MR

      So what do you say

  14. 43:08 – 52:29

    Motivation Science: How to Get Yourself to Change Bad Habits

    1. MR

      to the person listening who, who may be holding themselves back? They're in a pattern, they are looking at the doors, they see who they hope to become, they know who they kind of expect to become, especially if they don't make this change.

    2. MS

      Yes.

    3. MR

      Because if you're thinking about looking for a job, but you're not doing anything, you can expect to stay at that job. If you're thinking about-

    4. MS

      [laughs]

    5. MR

      ... running the marathon, but you never actually buy the sneakers, you can expect to never run the marathon.

    6. MS

      Correct.

    7. MR

      They're staring at the fear door thinking, "Oh, but what if this, what if that?" So they are in that moment where you are actively waiting. You're waiting for change while you're raising a family, you're caring for your parents-

    8. MS

      Yep

    9. MR

      ... you're finishing school, you're in between jobs. There's a thing you wanna do, but you just are waiting for the right time.

    10. MS

      Yep.

    11. MR

      What would you say?

    12. MS

      No action is too small. You can start right now. You do not need to wait until the kids leave the nest. You do not need to wait until you are no longer a caregiver. Because here's the thing, let's say that your goal is to start a blog-

    13. MR

      Mm-hmm

    14. MS

      ... or like, yeah, you know what? Today I woke up, I, I really wanna write a Substack because, uh, let's say you really care about building community. All you have to do is write for one minute a day. And the reason is that the difference between zero minutes and one minute is seismic. Because when it's zero minutes, nothing. When it's one minute, you're a writer. You've embodied this identity, and you're gonna build towards it, and it's gonna be self-reinforcing, and it's gonna lead to this virtuous cycle where over time you start to believe it too. So I would tell people to start now. It can be the smallest little action, okay? Maybe it's, it's just one little step you take in the direction of that possible future self. The other thing I wanna share is that there are really good techniques from science that can help drive motivation when we need it most.

    15. MR

      Okay.

    16. MS

      So the first is to break really big, daunting goals into bite-sized bits-

    17. MR

      Okay

    18. MS

      ... that feel much more manageable and where we can feel a sense of accomplishment in the short term. And the other reason why it's so important to break the big goal into the small goals-

    19. MR

      Uh-huh

    20. MS

      ... is that we want to avoid what's called the middle problem.

    21. MR

      What's the middle problem?

    22. MS

      So the middle problem refers to the idea that we don't have stable amounts of motivation over the course of pursuing a goal. We get a huge boost in the beginning, so this is like New Year's Day, right?

    23. MR

      Yep.

    24. MS

      We're like, "Oh, my God, I'm ready to go. Where is my gym shoes? I'm off, you know, I'm gonna go on the elliptical or the treadmill," or whatever it is, okay? And then we get a huge burst of motivation at the end-

    25. MR

      Yep

    26. MS

      ... 'cause now we're really close to achieving the goal, so we're like, oh, it's like think of a marathon. You're in the final stretch. You actually speed up a little bit 'cause you're so excited to almost be there. But we actually get a lull in motivation in the middle.

    27. MR

      Hmm.

    28. MS

      So what breaking a big goal into smaller goals does is that it reduces the continuous length of that middle stretch. If you have a year-long goal, that middle is three months, where you have that drop in motivation and you're likely to just fall off the wagon altogether. If you have a week-long goal-

    29. MR

      Yep

    30. MS

      ... now your middle is just over, you know, it's like two and a half days or something.

Episode duration: 52:34

Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript

Transcript of episode q6POJ8FWyNw

Get more out of YouTube videos.

High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.

Add to Chrome