Your Guide to Better Sex, Intimacy, & Love From a World-Leading Sex Therapist

Mel Robbins 0:00 (instrumental music plays) Today, on the Mel Robbins Podcast, you and I are gonna spend some time together in the bedroom. If you can't talk about sex, if you can't ask for what you want, if you don't know how to bring it up, if you're going through a dry spell, or if you're like me and my husband and you wanna have more sex but you're just so tired. Holy cow, our conversation is gonna be surprising, pleasure-inducing, filled with practical advice which is gonna flip most of the things that you and I know about desire, pleasure, sex drive, and orgasm right on its head. No pun intended. Just imagine a world where you're having more sex, you feel more connected and safe. You're also having more fun in the bedroom. Well, that's exactly what you're gonna learn how to create in your life today. Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so excited that you're here. I cannot wait for our conversation today, and it's always such an honor to spend time and to be together with you. And if you're a new listener, I just wanna take a moment and welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. I'm so glad you're here, and because you made the time to hit play and listen to this particular episode, here's what I know. I, first of all, know you value your time because you made time and found time to listen to this,

Mel Robbins 1:23 and let me tell you something. This episode is gonna deliver the goods, because today we're talking about sex, and your pleasure, connection, intimacy, fun, it matters. You deserve to have this part of your life feel satisfying and fun, whether you're single or whether you're in a relationship. And did you know that sex is one of the top three reasons why people get divorced or break up? But that's not gonna happen to you because improving your sex life, totally solvable problem. So if you're not having sex right now, or if you're not having enough, or if it's not pleasurable, or if you'd like to mix things up but you just don't have a clue how to talk about it or bring it up, first of all, you're not the only one. And what I love about our expert today is that she's even gonna tell you this was hard for her to talk about in her life, and she's been in clinical practice as a licensed sex therapist for over 20 years, and she's been married for 17. See, here's the thing. None of us have been taught about sex, and more importantly, everything that you and I have seen in the movies or what we think it's supposed to be, wrong. That's why you and I hint. It's why we fake. It's why we're tolerating less than we deserve. And the solution? This is the good news. It's right in front of your face, and wouldn't it be so awesome if it weren't such a chore or embarrassing to talk about? I mean, personally, I've been married for 28 years, and even I'm embarrassed to talk about it with my husband Chris. Just imagine a world where you could be having more of it and enjoy it more. Well, that's my mission and what's available to you today. So if you're single, just pat yourself on the back because you're about to learn something I wish I knew 35 years ago. If you're in a new relationship, I know you're probably having more sex than my husband and I are, but what you're gonna learn is gonna make it even better, because licensed sex therapist, New York Times best-selling author Vanessa Moran is here. And look, I'm gonna ask the embarrassing questions. I'm even gonna open up my bedroom and my marriage. Even Chris, my husband, has jumped in with some questions for Vanessa. I have no idea what they are. I'm gonna hear them live when you hear them. So, let me tell you a little bit about Vanessa. Vanessa is a licensed psychotherapist and a sex therapist with over 20 years of clinical practice helping people have healthier, more satisfying sex lives. She's known for her work in making sex therapy more accessible. She is the author of the New York Times best-selling book, Sex Talks: The Five Conversations That Will Transform Your Love Life, and she and her husband Zander also host the number one rated sexuality podcast called Pillow Talks. You're gonna

Mel Robbins 4:08 love her. So let's jump in, 'cause I got questions and I know you do too. Vanessa Moran, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

Vanessa Marin 4:17 Thank you so much for having me. I am so excited to be here.

Mel Robbins 4:20 Now, is it normal for people who interview you to feel kinda nervous?

Vanessa Marin 4:23 Yes. Are you a little bit nervous right now? (laughs)

Mel Robbins 4:25 I'm definitely nervous, and I suppose it's because I'm one of these people that's a little bit squeamish about sex...

Vanessa Marin 4:32 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 4:32 ... which might surprise you as you're listening to me right now. You know, you've hit play on this. You know what you're in for. This is an adult conversation. And I'm out there and I share a lot, but when it comes to sex, I'm... I don't know, like maybe a little bit of a prude.

Vanessa Marin 4:49 Well, let me say thank you so much for being willing to have these conversations. I, I think it's really important for us to recognize we are all a little squeamish and embarrassed. I've been doing this work for two decades, and I get a little squeamish and awkward and weird sometimes. You know, we were not born being ashamed of sex. We were all taught to be, and I think you're doing a really great service to your community by showing people, "Look, I can feel awkward and squeamish and weird and still choose to do it anyway."

Mel Robbins 5:18 That's true, both the sex and talk about it, right?

Vanessa Marin 5:20 Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 5:21 Choose to do it anyway. I think we're gonna talk a lot about that. Could you speak directly to the person that's listening, whether they're in their car or they're sitting at work or they've taken you and I, Vanessa, on a walk, and just tell them what might they experience that's different in life if they take everything that you're about to share and I'm about to confess to heart, and they apply it? What's gonna change in their life?

Vanessa Marin 5:50 You know, I think so many of us in long-term relationships, if we're really honest with ourselves, we kinda feel like we've been lied to or cheated a little bit. Like, we've grown up with this idea of romance and intimacy and this thought of what relationships are supposed to look like, and a lot of us are in these long-term relationships thinking...This is it?

Mel Robbins 6:10 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Marin 6:10 Like, this disconnection, this lack of sex, like, this is really what relationships are all about? And so, I want the listener to know that if you listen to this episode, if you put these techniques and tools into place, you can have the kind of intimacy that you've always wanted. You can have that intimacy that really leaves you feeling so close to your partner, connected to your partner. Close to yourself, too.

Mel Robbins 6:35 Hm. So, for the person that's listening that's single, I would also love to have you speak directly to that person, because I know that this is also gonna be one of those episodes, since none of us like talking about sex-

Vanessa Marin 6:48 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 6:49 ... that you send it to somebody. Like, if you're single and listening to our conversation today, how might your life change if they take to heart everything that you're about to share and they apply it to their life?

Vanessa Marin 7:03 It's an incredible opportunity when you're single to learn these skills that you can then bring into your next relationship. Most of the couples that my husband Xander and I work with, they've been in relationships 10, 20, 30, 40 years.

Mel Robbins 7:17 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Marin 7:17 And when you're that far into a relationship, starting to untangle some of these dynamics can feel really challenging. And so, if you get to prepare yourself before you even get into your next relationship and know, "Okay, this is what I know about myself, this is how I'm gonna communicate to my partner, this is the kind of partner that I'm looking for," you're going to be so well-prepared to have an extraordinary relationship.

Mel Robbins 7:38 What keeps you up at night as a licensed sex therapist?

Vanessa Marin 7:42 I stay up at night knowing that there are so many couples struggling with their sex lives, when the reality is that there are very simple and practical things that we can all do to experience that incredible, deep intimacy with each other. I know sexual issues can feel really big and really complicated when we're in the middle of them, but there really are simple things that we can do to feel closer to each other. It's just the fact that sex is still s- so taboo to talk about that leaves us feeling stuck, feeling like we're broken, something's wrong with us, and there are no solutions, but there are.

Mel Robbins 8:19 Why are so many of us feeling disconnected in our sex lives?

Vanessa Marin 8:25 Because we're feeling disconnected in our relationships too. One of the big mistakes that people make when it comes to sex is we try to compartmentalize it. We think of sex as, "Oh, it's just this thing that happens in the bedroom at the end of the night with the doors closed and lights turned off." But the reality is that the level of connection we feel or don't feel with our partner all throughout the day heavily impacts our desire to be intimate with them at the end of the night. And the sad reality is, most couples in long-term relationships feel deeply disconnected from each other. You know, we hear the classic phrases, "We feel like roommates rather than romantic partners," "We're like two ships passing in the night." And so, if you're feeling that level of disconnection in your sex life, it's actually, in a funny way, an invitation to take a look at, well, what's going on in the relationship overall?

Mel Robbins 9:13 Well, I can relate to that. I mean, I think that when you have a person that you're in a relationship, and of course, I've been married for 28 years, um, having the same person be the person that you wake up next to, you grocery shop with, you cook dinner with, you pay bills with, you, if you have kids or you have furry kids that you're taking care of, the logistics around that, that it can become very transactional.

Vanessa Marin 9:41 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 9:42 Like, you're doing life together, but you're not actually doing each other. I mean, I love Chris like crazy, I'm super attracted to him. And as much as I want more sex, I'm like, "Do I?" Like, I'm actually very, very tired. And so-

Vanessa Marin 9:55 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 9:56 ... I relate to what you're saying. And you know, what is your advice to me? If I want more sex, but I'm not sure that I want more sex-

Vanessa Marin 10:06 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 10:06 ... even though I enjoy the sex tremendously when we have it, but I'm exhausted.

Vanessa Marin 10:12 So, I wanna validate the exhaustion first.

Mel Robbins 10:14 Okay.

Vanessa Marin 10:14 Because most of us lead lives that are incredibly full, incredibly stressful, and that exhaustion's real, and it definitely gets in the way of us having intimacy. But one of the incredible things about sex is that sex actually gives back to us.

Mel Robbins 10:30 How?

Vanessa Marin 10:30 When we have sex with our partner, when we feel truly connected with them and truly intimate with each other, sex actually creates more energy, more time, more of a sense of teamwork.

Mel Robbins 10:42 Hm.

Vanessa Marin 10:43 Like, when you and your partner are in a good place, and you could probably think of specific examples. Like, think of a time when you and Chris were not in a good place. Everything feels like a slog.

Mel Robbins 10:53 Yes.

Vanessa Marin 10:53 Every little thing that you have to do during the day just stretches out so much further because you're disconnected. But when you are in a good place, when you feel like you're connecting, you're appreciating each other, you're feeling intimate with each other, you feel like an unstoppable team. Like, nothing can get in your way. Xander and I had a really interesting experience with this a couple of months ago. We were having one of those days. It was- it was one of those days. Like, there were so many things on our plate, everything was spiraling out of control, taking way longer than we thought it was supposed to. And it was probably around 5:00, and we were looking at our to-do list and looking at each other just thinking, "There's no way. There is not enough time left in the day for us to do all of the things that are on this list." And Xander reminds me, he said, "You know, we had said earlier this morning that we were gonna have sex today." And my initial reaction was, "No. Th- there's no time. We can't even get through all these things. There's no time for sex." And we started kind of negotiating with the schedule a little bit, and he said, "Well, what if I, maybe I could do this first, and maybe we push this thing off till tomorrow." And he stopped himself in the middle of it, and he said, "This is ridiculous. You are more important to me. Intimacy is more important to me than anything on this stupid list. So screw the list right now. Let's go have sex right now." I thought he was crazy. (laughs) My initial reaction was, "Absolutely not. Are you kidding me? Look at all the things that we have to do."

Mel Robbins 12:14 Right.

Vanessa Marin 12:15 But that sentence really stuck with me. "You're more important to me. You are more important to me than anything on this list." And so I said, "Okay."Okay. (laughs) My mind is screaming no. It's like, "We should do all the to-do list stuff, but let me, let me do this. Let's go be intimate." So we went and had sex-

Mel Robbins 12:34 Yeah.

Vanessa Marin 12:34 ... and then magically after that, we killed that list. We were so in sync with each other. We were a team. We're dividing and conquering. We got through everything. It was like magic that had happened when we had that connection with each other, when we were prioritizing what was actually important. Everything else fell into place.

Mel Robbins 12:56 You know, I actually believe you.

Vanessa Marin 12:58 Good. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 12:59 Because... No, and I, I don't mean that in a, like as a weird statement. It's because I know what you're saying is true. And, you know, one of the things that happens for me a lot is that every time my husband and I have sex, I always say, "That was amazing. I feel so much more connected to you. Thank God we did that."

Vanessa Marin 13:18 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 13:19 "Why aren't we having more sex?" Like is that a common thing too, where you're just like, "I'm too tired, so we're not having sex," but then we have sex and I'm like, "Why are we not having sex?"

Vanessa Marin 13:27 Yeah. So what you're starting to talk about is actually the two sex drive types, which I'm super excited to, to share with you, because what you're describing sounds like a classic responsive sex drive type.

Mel Robbins 13:38 So what are the two different types of sex drives?

Vanessa Marin 13:41 So we have spontaneous and responsive. How we describe them is where we feel desire first. So there are two ways that we get turned on, excited, ready for sex.

Mel Robbins 13:50 Okay.

Vanessa Marin 13:51 Mentally, like the idea of sex sounds good. "Yeah, I wanna have sex."

Mel Robbins 13:54 I can handle that.

Vanessa Marin 13:56 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 13:56 I am mentally ready to have sex all the time. It's when we cross the bridge to actually doing it that the drawbridge is up.

Vanessa Marin 14:02 Interesting. Okay, so the second place is in our bodies. We have to get physically ready, things like getting wet, getting an erection. You know, our bodies are just preparing. So these two types depend on where you feel desire first.

Mel Robbins 14:15 Okay.

Vanessa Marin 14:15 So if you're a spontaneous type, you're gonna feel mental desire first. And it might feel like it kind, kind of comes out of nowhere. You're just going about your day, like, "Huh, the idea of sex sounds good. Where's my partner? Let me find them," and then your physical arousal follows from that. And that's how most people think sex drive is supposed to work, 'cause that's always how we see it on TV and in the movies, right?

Mel Robbins 14:33 Yep.

Vanessa Marin 14:33 There's just that like, all the characters have to do is make eye contact with each other and then it's game on. But there's another type which most people don't even realize exist and which research shows the vast majority of women, about 85%, have responsive sex drive, and it's the exact opposite. We feel arousal and desire in our bodies first, and then the mental desire follows. So the classic way of knowing you might be responsive is if you've ever been in the middle of sex or even at the end of sex, and just like you're saying, you catch yourself thinking, "Huh, this is really fun. Why don't I seem to want this more often?" So most people who have responsive desire will think of themselves as low or no desire, because they're not thinking about sex. And if you grab a, a person with spon- with responsive desire on the street and just say, "Hey, do you wanna have sex right now?" 99 times out of 100 it's gonna be no, 'cause I'm not thinking about it.

Mel Robbins 15:23 Right.

Vanessa Marin 15:24 But it's not that your desire is low or nonexistent. It's just that it operates in a different way. You have to have some physical stimulation first before the idea of sex is gonna sound good.

Mel Robbins 15:35 I think you just solved all my problems with my husband-

Vanessa Marin 15:38 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 15:38 ... because I think my problem is I think about it and I'll text him and be like, "We, we gotta have sex tonight." Like, "I really miss you."

Vanessa Marin 15:44 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 15:44 But there's no follow-through on my part, and I think we're both responsive.

Vanessa Marin 15:49 Mm. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 15:50 That he probably needs to have s- me start. I need him to start.

Vanessa Marin 15:56 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 15:56 We're both exhausted. Like, is that a common thing?

Vanessa Marin 15:58 Yeah, yeah. Two people who have responsive desire, it can often feel like a standoff, like you're kind of waiting for the other person, like, "Well, I want you to start." "Well, I want you to start." And you're both not thinking that often about sex. It's not popping into your mind that of- you might have the idea of like, "We should, it's been a while," but you're not feeling that like, "Ooh, it feels super exciting to me mentally

Vanessa Marin 16:17 right now."

Mel Robbins 16:18 You know, I, I told my husband Chris that you were coming on, and I said, "Would you like to ask Vanessa a couple questions?"

Vanessa Marin 16:28 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 16:29 And I understand that he has videotaped a couple questions and texted them to you.

Vanessa Marin 16:35 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 16:35 I do not know what they are. I'm a little nervous 'cause I feel like I'm about to get blamed for something. But in the interest of both of us getting the advice that we need, I would love to hear my husband's questions and your answers.

Vanessa Marin 16:50 All right. First, though, I wanna ask, why do you think you're gonna be blamed for something?

Mel Robbins 16:54 Um.

Vanessa Marin 16:54 What comes up for you around that?

Mel Robbins 16:55 Well, I have a feeling that he's gonna say I'm all talk, no follow through.

Vanessa Marin 16:59 Okay.

Mel Robbins 16:59 Because I do wanna be having more sex 'cause I do enjoy it-

Vanessa Marin 17:03 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 17:03 ... but I'm just tired. Like, I'll always be like, "We gotta have sex tonight," and he's like, "Yeah, we gotta have sex tonight." And then he's asleep at 8:30, and when I crawl into bed at 9:30, you know, he's like (snores) , and I'm-

Vanessa Marin 17:14 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 17:14 ... I'm like, "Okay, I'm not waking him up." Like, this is, "I'm just gonna go to bed and then we'll have sex in the morning." And then he's up at 5:15 and I'm still sleeping-

Vanessa Marin 17:21 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 17:21 ... and so it just feels like I keep saying something, but I'm not doing what I said-

Vanessa Marin 17:30 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 17:30 ... I wanted. And then the second thing is like, I think it's what you talked about, which is even in a relationship where we've been married for 28 years, and even with a person that I love more than anybody, who I trust more than anybody, I still feel squeamish and, uh, uncomfortable talking about-

Vanessa Marin 17:53 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 17:54 ... either what I want or what he might want that I'm not delivering, and kind of hearing that I'm falling short or that he's bored. And so I think we've been hinting around wanting things to change.

Vanessa Marin 18:07 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 18:07 But we actually haven't made them change.

Vanessa Marin 18:10 I appreciate the vulnerability so much, and you're gonna see in just a minute, there's some shared similarities that you and Chris have here. But what you're illustrating is one of the most common dynamics that comes up for couples. Most of us are really afraid to talk about our sex lives. Even Xander and I struggled to talk about our sex lives for years. And when we don't talk about it, our brains naturally go to this negative place, "Oh, he thinks I'm doing something bad. He's gonna blame me. He's gonna call me out. It's all my fault." And you'll see in a second, like, Chris is actually thinking some of the same sorts of things. So-

Mel Robbins 18:46 Oh, I don't know if that's good or bad. All I know is that my husband-

Vanessa Marin 18:49 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 18:49 ... sent you videos, uh, asking-

Vanessa Marin 18:53 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 18:53 ... some questions, and I have no clue what the questions are.

Vanessa Marin 18:56 Yeah. So it's, we need to talk about sex more openly in our relationships so that we don't- (laughs)

Mel Robbins 19:00 All right, you're making me nervous. Can you play the videos? 'Cause I don't know what he asked, so now I'm, like, sitting-

Vanessa Marin 19:03 Okay, but I have one other, I have one other practical tip that I wanna get back to you with.

Mel Robbins 19:06 Okay.

Vanessa Marin 19:06 But let's go to the first video so you don't-

Mel Robbins 19:08 Okay.

Vanessa Marin 19:08 ... have to be nervous. They're very sweet videos, I'll tell you that.

Mel Robbins 19:10 Oh.

Guest questioner (pre-recorded listener/partner) 19:12 Hey, Mel, thanks for inviting me onto the podcast. My first question is around the difference between physical touch or sensation versus emotional connection, and either what's more important to you or does one come before the other? And what could I do to improve, um, the physical side or to dial up anything that you might need emotionally, um, so that the table is set?

Mel Robbins 19:57 Oh, I, well, first of all, the dog is in the background-

Vanessa Marin 20:00 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 20:00 ... which is adorable. Um, but I love that he cares.

Vanessa Marin 20:05 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 20:05 And I guess what I'm getting from this question is that simply talking about sex with your partner and asking questions about-

Vanessa Marin 20:14 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 20:15 ... sex makes you feel cared for.

Vanessa Marin 20:17 Absolutely. Yeah, and what I hear behind that question is a little bit of worry, like, "Am I doing something that's not good? Can I be doing something that's better?"

Mel Robbins 20:28 Um, you know, I, I, I, it, I, I, I, I, I, I... See, I'm already getting red (laughs) .

Vanessa Marin 20:35 Uh-huh. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 20:35 I'm so embarrassed. I don't know why. Um-

Vanessa Marin 20:38 It's a vulnerable thing that you're doing.

Mel Robbins 20:40 Well, what I would say to my husband is that once we are physical, it's fantastic.

Vanessa Marin 20:49 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 20:49 But for me, there is some disconnect around when we're having sex or when we think are the times to have sex, because I think we're waiting until the end of the day-

Vanessa Marin 21:03 That's exactly what happens.

Mel Robbins 21:03 ... and we're both exhausted.

Vanessa Marin 21:05 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:05 And so one thing I'm relieved about, since he's kind enough to be saying, there's emotional intimacy and physical intimacy, and to me, the physical intimacy is on lock. I mean, I'd love to experiment a little bit just to spice things up 'cause I think he would enjoy it, but I think we're struggling with just the basics-

Vanessa Marin 21:28 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:29 ... of how do we have more sexual experiences-

Vanessa Marin 21:32 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:32 ... in the middle of a crazy busy life-

Vanessa Marin 21:34 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 21:35 ... and how do we stop disappointing one another by saying, "We would love to do this." Like, just last week-

Vanessa Marin 21:42 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:42 ... uh, we probably talked about wanting to have sex two or three times. He has a fricking sinus infection. I don't wanna get sick.

Vanessa Marin 21:47 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:47 Like, he can barely breathe. If he's asking me what I need, I don't even know-

Vanessa Marin 21:54 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:54 ... because I feel like when we do connect, and I, I think a lot of us feel this way, when it finally happens, you're happy. So what would your advice, though, as a licensed sex therapist be, and what do you hear in that question-

Vanessa Marin 22:06 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 22:07 ... when somebody's saying, "Do you need more emotional intimacy or physical intimacy?"

Vanessa Marin 22:12 So let's go to the tactical thing first. What I hear you describing is another classic mistake that I, uh, see most couples making, which is that we leave sex to the very end of the night. We just have that idea in our heads, like, "Oh, we're all teeth brushed, all cleaned up, crawling into bed, that's the time for sex." That is the worst time for sex. By the time you're crawling into bed, you are exhausted. You're thinking about the next day, you're thinking about the crazy day you just had, you're doing that mental math in your head of, "Okay, if I fall asleep in the next five minutes, then I can get this many hours (laughs) of sleep." That is the worst time to get excited about sex. So I always encourage couples, try to have sex as early in the evening as you can. Obviously everybody has different schedules, we have different things going on, but try to prioritize it as early as you possibly can. So if it's-

Mel Robbins 23:01 Hmm.

Vanessa Marin 23:01 ... "We're not gonna watch TV until we've had sex" version. Maybe it's even, "We're gonna have sex, and then we're gonna have dinner," or, "We're gonna have dinner, have sex, then we'll come back and clean everything up." But do it earlier so you actually have the energy to have that intimacy with each other.

Mel Robbins 23:16 What I'm hearing from you, which is interesting, because I feel myself also having a little bit of a visceral, like, "Oh, God," is this idea of you gotta plan it.

Vanessa Marin 23:26 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 23:27 You're like, "Yeah, no kidding, Mel. You have to plan it." Like, 'cause I think I believe in the myth that it's just supposed to happen-

Vanessa Marin 23:33 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 23:34 ... which is clearly not working.

Vanessa Marin 23:35 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 23:36 And that's what happens in the beginning of a relationship when you first... it's brand new. You will literally, going to the grocery store is the hottest date on the planet, and then you're having sex in the backseat of the car, in the, uh, parking lot. Like, those days are over. So you're saying-

Vanessa Marin 23:51 I wanna challenge you on that, though.

Mel Robbins 23:52 Okay.

Vanessa Marin 23:53 If you really think back on it, in the early days of a relationship... So I'll, I'll talk about me and Xander. When we started having sex, and then we're planning dates with each other, we're scheduling sex.

Mel Robbins 24:05 Because you're planning dates.

Vanessa Marin 24:06 We're planning dates. I would know... He'd ask me out on Friday-

Mel Robbins 24:09 That's so interesting.

Vanessa Marin 24:09 ... "Hey, you wanna go hang out on Friday? We'll go to dinner, come back to my place." Uh, we're having sex. That's scheduling sex. It's not that we've never had to schedule sex before and now we're old and boring and we have to do it. (laughs) We've been scheduling sex our entire relationship. We just looked at it differently.

Mel Robbins 24:26 I've never-... heard that before.

Vanessa Marin 24:29 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 24:30 One que- other question before I get to Chris's second question is, if you have a partner who tells you, "I need more emotional intimacy..."

Vanessa Marin 24:38 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 24:38 What does that mean?

Vanessa Marin 24:40 That's such a great question, and it's something that every person has to think about for themselves. A lot of us will throw these phrases out to our partner, "I want more emotional intimacy." But what does that mean? The things that could feel emotionally intimate to you, to me could feel like, "I don't like that. Th- that doesn't really work for me." So we all have to take that time to think about, "What is it? What are the specific things?" And I'm really practical, so I like to think about, "What are the things that my partner could do on a daily basis?"

Mel Robbins 25:06 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Marin 25:06 Obviously, if my partner wants to sweep me off on a two-week romantic vacation, yes, I'm gonna feel very connected. But like, what could he do on a Tuesday at 8:30 PM to help me feel 10% closer to him? So what are those little things? And that's what I hear from Chris too, is wondering, you know, "Do you want more emotional intimacy from me? Do you feel close enough to me?" And the, there's also a question in there of, what comes first for you? People tend to be divided into roughly two camps. There are some people who want emotional intimacy before they feel open to physical intimacy, and there are some people who want physical intimacy as a way to help open up more emotional intimacy.

Mel Robbins 25:45 You know, I think you just changed my marriage because when you said, when you were first dating, "What is a date? It's a way to schedule sex." Like, that was like-

Vanessa Marin 25:54 We're- we're scheduling those dates. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 25:57 And it's not even about the dates, it's about creating moments where we have the time and space for intimacy...

Vanessa Marin 26:03 Mm-hmm. And yeah.

Mel Robbins 26:05 ... to happen and to plan for it. Like, I, like you said earlier in the evening, I'm like, "I need to be doing it before noon." Like, I, I mean, if it's gonna happen-

Vanessa Marin 26:14 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 26:14 ... scheduling it late morning is probably the sweet spot.

Vanessa Marin 26:18 Mm-hmm. And the interesting thing too, like, so think back to those early stages of dating, Chris. If he called you and said, "Hey, do you wanna go on a date with me on Saturday?" You're not thinking, "Ugh, this guy, we have to schedule it. Wow, the romance must really be dead if we're having to sch-" No, you're excited. Like-

Mel Robbins 26:35 It's true.

Vanessa Marin 26:35 ... "Wow, he wants to spend time with me. He's willing to carve time out of his busy life to make time to be with me." Like, we looked at it in such a positive way. And people get so freaked out by the scheduling sex thing. I actually say, like, leave the scheduling sex, that phrase behind, 'cause it freaks people out too much.

Mel Robbins 26:53 What do we say instead?

Vanessa Marin 26:53 Well, let's just, let's just think about it as planning for sex, or I, I like to say intentional intimacy.

Mel Robbins 26:58 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Marin 26:58 Or even just call it a date night if you want to, if you like those, those feelings of date night. But yeah, we can think of it as a positive thing, "My partner cares about me. They wanna spend time with me. They've got a million things going on, but they're telling me, 'You're important. I wanna make sure you and I have that time together.'"

Mel Robbins 27:12 But more importantly, this is how it all started.

Vanessa Marin 27:15 Uh-huh.

Mel Robbins 27:15 And this is why you were having sex.

Vanessa Marin 27:16 Uh-huh.

Mel Robbins 27:17 So why on earth would I be a dummy-

Vanessa Marin 27:19 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 27:19 ... and not do the same thing I did when we first started dating? All right, let's look at the next one.

Guest questioner (pre-recorded listener/partner) 27:26 So my second question is about just what I can do better or differently at the end of the day to help you turn off your working mind. Uh, I know sometimes it's dinner or hanging out and watching something, but your mind often doesn't turn off, uh, all the way into the bedroom and into the bed, um, with or without the phone. And so is there anything that I can do to, um, help alleviate some of that stress or, uh, whatever might be running through your mind in order to shift the mood?

Mel Robbins 28:12 Aw. He's so cute.

Vanessa Marin 28:14 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 28:14 Oh my god. I, I love this question because I know exactly...

Vanessa Marin 28:20 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 28:21 ... what could be done, and it's gonna sound weird. But one of the things that I really miss is that we don't often cook dinner together anymore.

Vanessa Marin 28:31 Hm.

Mel Robbins 28:32 Because we're empty nesters-

Vanessa Marin 28:33 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 28:34 ... and there's only two of us, and we both work from home. And so it is so easy to sit at your desk on your laptop and close the laptop at 6:30 after the last video call and then send a few emails and then stroll, you know, into the kitchen. And you're like, "What do we have, cereal again? We're gonna put a pizza in the oven again?"

Vanessa Marin 29:00 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 29:00 And so there is some buffering between work and the reestablishing of rituals that, for us, were very much driven by the fact that kids were home and they were hungry and we-

Vanessa Marin 29:15 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 29:15 ... had a pattern of sitting down and cooking and then eating as a family-

Vanessa Marin 29:21 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 29:21 ... that has just evaporated without the kids being there. And so for me, I know that I could use a lot of help with, if I walked into the kitchen and Chris was already cooking, I wouldn't be on my phone.

Vanessa Marin 29:36 Hm.

Mel Robbins 29:36 But since we haven't planned anything, work literally takes over the space, and we're both guilty of it. And so I could see how even, and I mean this is just opening up so many things we could do, we could start doing the things we used to do when the kids were home.

Vanessa Marin 29:50 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 29:50 We could meet on Sunday nights and go, "These are the nights we're gonna cook, and who's gonna take, uh, responsibility for being the lead on that night-"

Vanessa Marin 29:58 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 29:58 "... so that we both come down to something."

Vanessa Marin 30:00 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 30:01 I think it's an excellent question.

Vanessa Marin 30:03 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 30:03 Because it goes back to what you're talking about, which is intentional intimacy, and even the act of deciding that we're cooking dinner tonight-

Vanessa Marin 30:11 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 30:11 ... together, that's intentional.

Vanessa Marin 30:13 Yeah. What you're saying, it goes back to what I was saying at the very beginning of this interview, the things that we need to fix intimacy in our relationship are so simple. And a lot of us know what they are already. We're just not doing them. You know that you feel really connected to him when you do those things. And it's not that difficult to do it.

Mel Robbins 30:33 No.

Vanessa Marin 30:33 It's just, it's just getting ourselves to do them again.

Mel Robbins 30:36 Well, it's like everything I talk about on this podcast, which is we all know this.

Vanessa Marin 30:39 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 30:40 But you have to be reminded-

Vanessa Marin 30:41 We need those reminders.

Mel Robbins 30:41 ... because otherwise, technology and work and all these things that you're not gonna be thinking about at the end of your life are gonna steal the time that you have now-

Vanessa Marin 30:49 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 30:49 ... with the people that you care about.

Vanessa Marin 30:51 Yeah, and I think that the cooking is such a great example too because it can create what I like to call a transition ritual.

Mel Robbins 30:56 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Marin 30:57 So many of us try to go from the chaos of the day straight into, "Okay, now I'm home and we're supposed to be super sexy and intimate with each other." That is too rough of a transition to make. (laughs) We need a little bit of a ritual to help us land, like ground ourselves and know, "Okay, I'm here. I'm in a different state, I'm doing a different thing now." So is there some little activity, and again, all about being practical, what is something that you could do, you know, super simply in just a couple of minutes to help the two of you reconnect? "Hey, we're here with each other. It's our time now."

Mel Robbins 31:27 All right, let's take the final question from Mr. Christopher Robins. The fact that he's even asking-

Vanessa Marin 31:33 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 31:33 ... makes me, like, wanna have sex with him.

Vanessa Marin 31:36 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 31:36 Okay, honey, here we go. Here goes the final question.

Guest questioner (pre-recorded listener/partner) 31:38 Is there anything that you haven't said or that you're afraid to tell me? Thanks for including me.

Mel Robbins 31:45 Um, ooh, anything I haven't told him? Yes.

Vanessa Marin 31:51 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 31:52 But I have told him this, but maybe you can give us advice and I can ask this on behalf of the person who's listening, who feels the same way.

Vanessa Marin 32:04 Okay.

Mel Robbins 32:05 Um, I feel like work is a huge part of my life, and I have to be out in the world, at work, go, go, go, go, go, go. I am the primary breadwinner. I am aggressive and confident and energetic, and I am responsible for a large number of people on this team, and I put a ton of energy into caring for the people that I work with, caring for the people that listen to the show, caring for our children, that I don't wanna be the point person on our sex life.

Vanessa Marin 32:49 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 32:49 Like I really want to feel desired and to feel like this is one area of my life where I don't have to be the one who's in charge.

Vanessa Marin 33:00 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 33:00 And I am sure that is a very common thing that people say, that I... and, and not like in a fairytale way that I'm expecting to be romanced, but I don't want to be the one with the traditional masculine energy that is seeking out the thing that I want. Not to say I'm not a equal partner-

Vanessa Marin 33:21 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 33:21 ... but that I don't want it to be on me to have to initiate this too.

Vanessa Marin 33:26 Mm, interesting. So I, I can totally relate to what you're saying, and I think a lot of people feel that exact same way. Like, "I just wanna be taken care of." (laughs) "I don't wanna have to think about it and to make that effort."

Mel Robbins 33:38 Well, everything in my life, and I think there... you know, as you're listening to me right now, you may feel this too. You're responsible for caring for your parents. You're responsible for taking care of the kids. You feel tremendous pressure to get your bills paid.

Vanessa Marin 33:50 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 33:50 You're the one that is doing the dishes. You're the... and that's not to say that your partner or the person that you're dating isn't doing anything.

Vanessa Marin 33:57 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 33:58 It's that there is, to put it in very outdated terms, there's very masculine energy around being the task master-

Vanessa Marin 34:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 34:07 ... and the money-maker and the caretaker, and there's more un-masculine or feminine, softer energy-

Vanessa Marin 34:17 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 34:18 ... that I would love to access in moments of intimacy.

Vanessa Marin 34:23 Tell me more about that. What would that look like for you, to be able to be more in your feminine when it comes to sex?

Mel Robbins 34:30 That Chris is initiating. That it's-

Vanessa Marin 34:33 Is it just- is it just the initiating? Is it something else?

Mel Robbins 34:35 Yeah, I think so. I think it's literally, like, I feel like I'm the one that's always like, "We should have sex today." Like-

Vanessa Marin 34:38 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 34:39 ... "We haven't had sex for a while." Like, I'm kind of the one doing that.

Vanessa Marin 34:42 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 34:43 And I, I think it would help a lot for me if I felt like this was an area of my life that I had somebody more spontaneous rather than responsive. (laughs)

Vanessa Marin 34:56 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 34:56 To put it in your language.

Vanessa Marin 34:58 So what do you think... If you just have to guess, what do you think might hold Chris back from initiating?

Mel Robbins 35:05 I think Chris has a very full life, and he also, um, has a job as a founder of a men's retreat where he's taking care of lots of people. He's a death doula. I mean, just this weekend he was leading a workshop, uh, on holotropic breath work.

Vanessa Marin 35:23 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 35:24 Like, he's Mr... He- he's a phenomenal human being who is also a caretaker.

Vanessa Marin 35:30 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 35:31 And so I would imagine that he feels the exact same way that I feel.

Vanessa Marin 35:36 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 35:37 Which is, "I'm doing my best to provide. I'm doing my best to take care of everybody that I'm taking care of. I'm doing my best to hold the household together and to make sure-

Vanessa Marin 35:48 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 35:48 ... the dogs are fed. Could you just-

Vanessa Marin 35:51 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 35:51 ... like help me and take care of my needs?" And so I think we're in this-

Vanessa Marin 35:55 You're both having the same experience, kind of wanting the other person to take the lead.

Mel Robbins 35:59 Yes, and I feel like most people probably feel this way.

Vanessa Marin 36:02 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 36:03 And we don't even stop to think that our partners also don't feel like their needs are getting met.

Vanessa Marin 36:09 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 36:09 Is this very common? (laughs)

Vanessa Marin 36:11 It's very common. A- of course, like let's, let's be honest, w- when our partner takes the lead, when they take that ownership, like it feels good, it feels easier because initiating is so vulnerable. It takes so much vulnerability, and it doesn't matter how long you've been with your-

Mel Robbins 36:27 See, I don't agree with that. I don't-

Vanessa Marin 36:28 Really?

Mel Robbins 36:28 I don't... Like, especially if you've been with somebody for a long time, I don't... Like, I personally don't feel vulnerable about it. I feel tired.

Vanessa Marin 36:33 Interesting. Okay.

Mel Robbins 36:34 Tired is the biggest thing for me.

Vanessa Marin 36:36 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 36:36 Of just working up the mental space. I gotta stop thinking about what I'm thinking about.

Vanessa Marin 36:43 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 36:44 The... And, and the other thing for me, and I, and I know this is something that you talk about, is...I think there's a problem in that any intimacy feels like, "Okay, now we gotta have intercourse." Not that intercourse is a bad thing, but you're like, "Okay, I don't even wanna touch the guy because if he gets-

Vanessa Marin 36:58 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 36:58 ... an erection because I'm stroking his thighs, we're watching Netflix-

Vanessa Marin 37:01 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 37:01 ... now I gotta do something."

Vanessa Marin 37:03 Exactly. Okay. So, uh, for a lot of people, it's great that it's not... it doesn't feel, uh, vulnerable for you. For a lot of people, it does feel really vulnerable. And so I feel really strongly that both partners in a relationship should share that vulnerability of initiating. We all wanna feel wanted. We all wanna feel like, "My partner's thinking of me. They wanna connect with me." So if you have two people, like it sounds like the two of you might be, who are responsive, I think having that intentional intimacy, and sitting together and thinking, "Okay, let's look at our schedule for the next week. What looks... what days look best? What looks open? What is the time of day that's gonna work best for us?" So it sounds like for you guys earlier in the day is gonna be way better the e- than at-

Mel Robbins 37:43 Yes.

Vanessa Marin 37:43 ... the end of the day. So if you guys can pick out those moments to be with each other, then it feels like you're both contributing. It's not one person taking the lead, one person holding everything on their shoulders. I mean, if you think about other aspects of your life, like let's imagine parenting. I know your kids are grown, but maybe let's think about when they were younger. Imagine Chris coming up to you and saying, "Okay, Mel, I want you to take the lead with the parenting. So you're just gonna be the parent. You're gonna initiate whatever parenting stuff needs to be done. If you want my help, you can ask me. Maybe I'll say yes, maybe no, but, like, you're the parenting person." That would be crazy, right? (laughs) But we... so many of us do that with sex. We want our partner just to do everything for us.

Mel Robbins 38:25 Well, I feel really called out right now because I- (laughs)

Vanessa Marin 38:29 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 38:29 ... remember there being a conversation with Chris when I started having to travel for work a lot, and I'm like, "You have to be the first call for parent."

Vanessa Marin 38:37 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 38:38 "I can't be the person on the call sheet at school because I'm always traveling for work."

Vanessa Marin 38:44 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 38:45 "We've got to reverse roles." And now I'm realizing I'm doing the same thing with the poor man around sex. Like, "You gotta be the first call person."

Vanessa Marin 38:53 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 38:53 I think there's probably a deeper reason-

Vanessa Marin 38:56 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 38:56 ... if you're the person who's squeamish, or you're like me and you feel like, "I just want somebody to take care of this for me."

Vanessa Marin 39:03 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 39:03 Um, or you're uncomfortable talking about it.

Vanessa Marin 39:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 39:08 What does taking responsibility for this part of your life and being somebody who initiates intimacy because you want it, how does that change you?

Vanessa Marin 39:24 Mm-hmm. It absolutely does. It's really important for us to recognize that our sex life is our responsibility. And of course, who doesn't want this amazing, magical partner who knows everything to do and just goes ahead and does it? But that's sadly not real life. But there really is a joy in us taking that ownership and deciding, "You know what? I wanna figure this out for myself. I wanna understand, why do I feel so squeamish? Why do I feel so uncomfortable? Why do I feel so awkward?" I've gone through plenty of those experiences myself. I actually felt deeply uncomfortable initiating for a really long time. And there are even times to this day where I get (laughs) a little awkward, and I kind of try to talk myself out of it. Like, "No, I, I shouldn't. He, he's doing something right now. I, I won't bother him." So I get it. It is really uncomfortable. But there's so much knowledge for us to uncover about ourselves of like, "Where does that come from within me?" And I think especially as women, we grow up being taught that our job is to put the brakes on sex. We're supposed to say no. We're supposed to slow things down. We're not supposed to say yes too often, but also not... You know, it's, we... There are all these rules that get put on us as women. And I find myself even to this day, even after all this work that I've done, there will be times that Xander will initiate, and I get that knee-jerk, like, "I'm not supposed to. Oh, that's bad. I'm not supposed to." And so just being able to recognize, "That's not me. That's some crap that I was taught. Decades of crappy socialization, growing up in a really sex-negative society." So I can acknowledge that that lies within me, but I can also acknowledge, "That is not me." But what I would also encourage you guys to think about are: what are the specific ways that each of you could feel more cared for-

Mel Robbins 41:09 Mm.

Vanessa Marin 41:10 ... more catered to during sex? And come up with specific things. Is it, "I love it when he takes time to massage my back and do a real massage, not one of those 20 seconds, like, um, my fing-... hands are heading down south"?

Mel Robbins 41:22 The kind I do, you mean?

Vanessa Marin 41:23 Yeah. (laughs) Yeah. "I want him to do a real massage. I love it when he brushes my hair. I love it when he draws me a bath and lets me have 10 minutes of alone time. And that's my transition ritual, and then I come into, you know, spending time together." And I would ask him the same question. What are the specific ways that he could feel taken care of by you? 'Cause that's some real intimacy there, too, if we can let our partner take care of us and tell them like-

Mel Robbins 41:48 Oh, I love this.

Vanessa Marin 41:48 ... "Yeah, these are the things that you could do that would help me feel so cherished and taken care of and, like, I could just relax into receiving." And especially for us women, we struggle so-

Mel Robbins 41:59 Mm.

Vanessa Marin 41:59 ... much with receiving. So to be able to ask your partner, he... L- you know, "Here's what I need to help me receive."

Mel Robbins 42:06 What is the single best thing a couple can do if they're on their way to a dry bedroom?

Vanessa Marin 42:11 Talk about it. So most of us, when we're in these difficult stages of a relationship, we don't wanna acknowledge what's going on. I know when Xander and I have had our dry spell moments, it's like, it's embarrassing. You don't wanna acknowledge the elephant in the (laughs) bedroom. And so you, you bury your head in the sand. You don't wanna talk about it. But what happens is it leaves your partner wondering how you really feel-

Mel Robbins 42:33 Mm.

Vanessa Marin 42:33 ... about that. I remember there was a time early in our relationship where I, I caught myself realizing, "I don't remember the last time we had sex." And then my next thought was, "Does Xander..."... noticed? Does he realize it's been a long time, or does he not care?" And it was all this, you know, fear and uncertainty came up for me, "Does he not care?" And that's what happens when we're not talking about it. Your partner wonders, "Do they not care about me anymore? They're not attracted to me anymore." So even just something as simple as acknowledging, 'cause let's be honest, nobody gets into a dry spell on purpose 'cause life happens. Stuff happens.

Mel Robbins 43:06 What is a dry spell? Like, as a licensed sex therapist-

Vanessa Marin 43:10 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 43:10 ... what is the normal amount of time that you should go without having sex, or like, I-I wanna know, like, when do you know you're in the danger zone-

Vanessa Marin 43:17 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 43:17 ... versus how much sex are people actually having when they're in a relationship?

Vanessa Marin 43:23 There's no specific definition of what counts as a dry spell. Some therapists will use, like, a one year.

Mel Robbins 43:29 One year?

Vanessa Marin 43:30 Might be a, they might call that a sexless relationship or a sexless marriage. But most people report if it's been, like, three to six months, to me, that feels like a dry spell. We've polled our audience about that. So even just acknowledging it and saying, "Hey, I know life has been so full lately. We've had all the kids stuff. Work has been crazy. But I want you to know, I'm thinking about you, and I miss you, and I really want us to take a look at the calendar and figure out what's some time that we can carve out for just us." That helps your partner recognize, like, you still care, you still wanna connect.

Mel Robbins 44:02 You say that you and your husband make out every night?

Vanessa Marin 44:05 Every night.

Mel Robbins 44:06 What?

Vanessa Marin 44:06 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 44:08 Why?

Vanessa Marin 44:08 Well, we started doing this a couple years ago because we fell into the exact same trap that I just told you most couples fall into, and I- I realized one day, I don't remember the last time that we made out, and we used to make out all the time at the beginning of our relationship, and it was just one of those incredibly sweet, pure, like brings you back to being a teenager, making out in the car. And so I realized, "I- I really miss that. I miss that we're not making out with each other." So I decided, "You know what? Let's make a ritual out of it. Let's make a fun little ritual where I want us to make out every single night." And so for the first, I think about a month, we made a little rule that I said, you know, "The point of this is not that we're trying to get each other turned on and have sex, so we're actually gonna say no sex after the make out."

Mel Robbins 44:51 So walk me through this. When... 'Cause you said the bedroom, and I'm- I immed- immediately imagined the kitchen with Chris, but-

Vanessa Marin 44:57 Yeah, you could do it in the kitchen.

Mel Robbins 44:58 ... walk me through how you and your husband started this ritual, and step-by-step what you do.

Vanessa Marin 45:04 So we do do it in the bedroom, but you could absolutely do it in another place. And if you're worried about it feeling like it needs to lead to more, I actually would recommend starting it in a different place. But we made that rule, that for the, that first month, no, no sex afterwards. We have to leave even if we want to. (laughs) And the rule was all that has to happen is there has to be a little tongue contact. (laughs) So it could be 10 seconds, it could be a couple minutes, and we just do, like, you know, a minute every night, and it's just this really sweet little moment of connection for us where we get to enjoy kissing just for the sake of kissing. It- it's a really great way to bring that romance back.

Mel Robbins 45:39 What is the bristle response?

Vanessa Marin 45:41 That is the name of a term that I coined to describe when your partner reaches out to touch you, and you feel your whole body recoil. You feel yourself tense up. You just don't wanna be touched. And what that's often the result of is actually bad initiation. So like I said, a lot of us have started to make that connection that touch leads to sex, and because so many people do feel vulnerable initiating, most people won't come out and directly use their words. So they will do that, the hug that lingers a little bit longer than it should, the hand on the thigh that's lingering, and I, we have such interesting radar. Like, I can tell the split second that Xander starts to initiate. I'm like, "I know what you're doing." (laughs) And so, um, a lot of us have then become on guard to our partner's touch-

Mel Robbins 46:26 Ah.

Vanessa Marin 46:26 ... because we're so worried, like, "Oh, I don't want him to touch me, and then it leads to more. I don't wanna touch him, and then he'll get turned on, and he thinks I want it to lead to more." So we start cutting ourselves off from that touch-

Mel Robbins 46:37 Yeah.

Vanessa Marin 46:37 ... and we, our whole body will react to it. And it feels terrible in the moment, like, this is the person that you love the most in this world, and even if they are just trying to give you a casual little pat on the back, like, you feel yourself, like, "No, get away from me." So actually, the, the solution for getting rid of the bristle reaction is, again, more non-sexual physical touch. We have to break that connection that touch is supposed to lead to sex.

Mel Robbins 47:00 If you're listening to this and you realize you bristle-

Vanessa Marin 47:03 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 47:04 ... and it might be innocuous because you literally are just like, "It's true, like, I have determined in my mind that every time somebody touches me, they want more, and for whatever reason, I don't want more or I don't have time to or I'm mad at you-

Vanessa Marin 47:20 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 47:21 ... so I don't wanna have sex with you," as a licensed sex therapist, what would you counsel someone to say exactly to their partner to shift this dynamic and call it out?

Vanessa Marin 47:35 To use this podcast to open up a conversation, say, "I heard this interview. I'd never heard of this term before, but I realize that's what I'm doing, and I don't want to be doing it-

Mel Robbins 47:45 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Marin 47:45 ... and I'm sure that it doesn't feel good for you either. And so what I'm realizing," or the advice that she gave on the episode, "is that I want us to have more touch in our relationship. I wanna, I want you to be able to reach out and give me a hug or stroke me on the back whenever you feel like it without me having that reaction. So what I want us to do for now is to practice having more of that touch, but just enjoying the touch. So if you wanna initiate sex with me, tell me with your words. Let's be, just for a brief period of time, let's practice being more direct about it so that I can relax when you're touching me and know that you're just touching me because you want a little connection in that moment, not because you're wanting to push it for more."

Mel Robbins 48:25 That makes so much sense, and I can see in periods of my life where I have bristled-

Vanessa Marin 48:30 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 48:30 ... with Chris.

Vanessa Marin 48:31 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 48:32 And it sends a very chilling message-

Vanessa Marin 48:34 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 48:35 ... to the person that you care about.

Vanessa Marin 48:37 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 48:37 Um, you know, and I also love that if you're uncomfortable talking about this-Share this episode-

Vanessa Marin 48:45 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 48:46 ... with your partner and say, "I want you to pay close attention to the bristle part, because I've been guilty of doing that."

Vanessa Marin 48:53 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 48:53 "Let's talk about it." And then that way you can do it in an email or a text.

Vanessa Marin 48:57 Yep. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 48:57 You let Vanessa, the licensed sex therapist and Mel Robbins do the talking-

Vanessa Marin 49:02 Exactly.

Mel Robbins 49:03 ... and you've now set the table. What's your number one piece of advice that you should follow on your next date night?

Vanessa Marin 49:10 Have sex before you go out on a date night.

Mel Robbins 49:14 Wait, what?

Vanessa Marin 49:15 Yes.

Mel Robbins 49:15 Have sex before the date?

Vanessa Marin 49:17 Most people get this wrong, they get the order wrong. We have this idea of we go out on a date, and then we come home and have sex. But let's be real, when you're having date night, you're having a big meal, maybe you're having a couple of drinks, you're in your cute outfit that maybe is a little tight and uncomfortable. Like, when I get home from a date night, I wanna get my bra off, I wanna take all my clothes off, I wanna get into my pajamas, and I wanna get on the couch and watch TV. I do not wanna go have sex. I'm too full, I'm bloated, I'm gassy, all of the things. (laughs) So if we have sex before date night, then you're more excited, you have more energy, and then it gets to feel like this sexy little secret that you have between the two of you when you're actually out on the date night.

Mel Robbins 49:57 You're a genius.

Vanessa Marin 49:58 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 49:59 I am gonna rock my husband's world. He's not even gonna see what's coming, for crying out loud-

Vanessa Marin 50:03 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 50:03 ... 'cause I've done this all wrong.

Vanessa Marin 50:05 It's so much fun. It's a totally different kind of experience when you do it first.

Mel Robbins 50:08 Wow. Can you give me exactly what to say if your partner's initiating intimacy and you're not in the mood?

Vanessa Marin 50:20 I have a really different way of looking at this actually. I want people to expect that you are not going to be in the mood when your partner initiates. You're two different people. You're thinking about sex, or not thinking about sex, in two totally different ways, two totally different times. Like when Xander initiates with me, I'll catch myself thinking, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, you, you wanna have sex?"

Mel Robbins 50:41 Now?

Vanessa Marin 50:42 I wasn't even thinking about sex.

Mel Robbins 50:43 Yes.

Vanessa Marin 50:43 Like, it feels like I'm behind, I've lost already, and so I have that knee-jerk reaction to just say no. And so when I finally recognize, like, "No, no, no. Why, why would I be in the mood in that exact moment? That would be too weird," then that really brought the pressure down for me. And I realized, okay, now, rather than putting myself, uh, putting this pressure on myself to feel like I should be in the mood, now I get to decide, is this something that I'm open to doing?

Mel Robbins 51:08 Mm.

Vanessa Marin 51:08 And we actually even changed the way that we initiate. Rather than saying, "Do you wanna have sex?" Xander will ask me, "Are you open to being intimate?"

Mel Robbins 51:17 I love that.

Vanessa Marin 51:19 Or, "Are you open to me trying to turn you on?" And just that one word, changing it to "open," that reminds me in the moment-

Mel Robbins 51:26 I'll tell you what-

Vanessa Marin 51:27 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 51:27 ... my legs are open now.

Vanessa Marin 51:30 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 51:31 (laughs) Well, now, what I love about that is I just realized, just even in the w- "We should have sex tonight."

Vanessa Marin 51:36 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 51:36 Like, I'm focusing on the orgasm.

Vanessa Marin 51:39 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 51:39 "Are you open to being intimate later today?"

Vanessa Marin 51:44 Or- or even, "Are you open to connecting later today?" That could be a nice way too. But yeah, just that one word, it totally changes the vibe and it helps you recognize, no, this is just about, like, do I wanna create that space with my partner? Do I wanna show up in this space with my partner? It really changes the energy.

Mel Robbins 51:59 I think you j- you've changed my life with two things, by sharing that there are two sex drives, spontaneous and responsive. And I'm stealing your husband's line, and I hope as you're listening and spending time together with us, as you're taking your walk or you're sitting at work or you're driving in your car, that you're realizing that that framing of, "Are you open-

Vanessa Marin 52:26 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 52:27 ... to doing something fun and intimate Saturday morning?" Like, and I love the third thing that you said that I'm just like, "Wow, you're right." We had sex all the time when we first met because we were constantly planning dates together.

Vanessa Marin 52:39 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 52:40 So we were planning sex. Duh.

Vanessa Marin 52:42 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 52:43 And now of course I'm, like, thinking it's some sort of, like, stupid thing to do when actually, that's how it all began.

Vanessa Marin 52:50 Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Mel Robbins 52:51 Wow.

Mel Robbins 52:52 Is there, uh, a question that, if you're in a new relationship, that you can ask that really opens up more dialogue around it if you're really enjoying this person-

Vanessa Marin 53:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 53:07 ... and you want to take more responsibility and you want to be more open about this topic?

Vanessa Marin 53:14 Here's a great first question that you could ask somebody, and this actually works whether you're dating or you're in a long-term relationship. Ask them, "How would you describe what great sex feels like?"

Mel Robbins 53:26 Ooh.

Vanessa Marin 53:26 "What do you wanna feel? Like, let's imagine you've just had great sex, you're lying there in bed afterwards. What are you thinking? 'That was so,' fill in the blank." I actually asked Chris that question.

Mel Robbins 53:36 You did?

Vanessa Marin 53:37 I did.

Mel Robbins 53:37 What did he say?

Vanessa Marin 53:38 Do you think you can guess his answers? And I'm curious your answers too. What is it that you're wanting to feel in those moments afterwards? So it could be, like, excitement, connection, vulnerability.

Mel Robbins 53:48 Oh, I think Chris would feel, like, deeply connected and seen and, uh, tired 'cause he had a just mind-blowing orgasm-

Vanessa Marin 53:59 (laughs) You got one of them.

Mel Robbins 54:00 ... and laying there. Or, I only got one of them?

Vanessa Marin 54:03 He gave me two. Connected.

Mel Robbins 54:04 Okay.

Vanessa Marin 54:05 Connected was one of them.

Mel Robbins 54:06 Well, what was the other one?

Vanessa Marin 54:07 Playful.

Mel Robbins 54:08 Oh, really?

Vanessa Marin 54:10 And that's one of my favorite words too. That's something that I, Xander and I talked a lot about. Another great question is, to ask each other is, "What makes sex worth having?"

Mel Robbins 54:20 Ooh.

Vanessa Marin 54:20 And for me, I realized, when I really thought about my favorite experiences with Xander, I realized they were the moments when we were playful. Like, I am such a goofball. We're really dorky with each other. And I think a lot of us tend to take sex very seriously.

Mel Robbins 54:35 Yeah.

Vanessa Marin 54:36 We feel like, you know, we have to seduce each other and be so serious. And, and I realized, like, no, the times that I've had the most fun were when we were laughing in bed, when, like, awkward things happened and we laughed together, when we made silly jokes in the middle of sex with each other. Like, for me, playful, being playful makes sex worth having.

Mel Robbins 54:56 I'm so glad you shared that with me.Because I never in a million years would've thought that that was his answer, but it gives me a clue-

Vanessa Marin 55:04 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 55:04 ... as to what I could do differently.

Vanessa Marin 55:06 What would your words be? (laughs)

Mel Robbins 55:07 Um, what would my words be? I think, well, definitely deeply connected and just kind of like, you know, it's afterward, you're like two octopuses with your arms and legs-

Vanessa Marin 55:17 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 55:17 ... all wrapped around each other, just laying there.

Vanessa Marin 55:19 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 55:20 Um, happy, um, safe.

Vanessa Marin 55:23 Hmm, that's a great one.

Mel Robbins 55:24 Um, tired. (laughs)

Vanessa Marin 55:28 (laughs) Maybe let's change that one to, like, maybe blissed out. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 55:31 Blissed out. That's a phenomenal, phenomenal one.

Vanessa Marin 55:36 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 55:36 Yeah. No, I, and I like playful.

Vanessa Marin 55:39 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 55:39 But I c- I can take that. I can take the nod on that.

Vanessa Marin 55:42 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 55:42 And show up a little differently.

Vanessa Marin 55:46 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 55:46 That's cool.

Vanessa Marin 55:47 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 55:47 That's really cool.

Vanessa Marin 55:48 So I would think about, like, think about those words and then, uh, back into, "Okay, what are the specific things that we could do during sex or in the lead-up to sex-

Mel Robbins 55:57 Hmm.

Vanessa Marin 55:57 ... to create that kind of experience with each other?"

Mel Robbins 56:00 Yeah.

Vanessa Marin 56:00 And I'd go back as well, to, you know, we talked so much about feeling taken care of.

Mel Robbins 56:04 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Marin 56:04 And well, yes, I do encourage you, like, I, I would encourage you that you guys should split that responsibility of initiating, but in this kinda more planful way that it's gonna work for the responsive sex drive types, but you could also really take turns, like, doing those specific things to take care-

Mel Robbins 56:19 Right.

Vanessa Marin 56:20 ... of each other. Like, "Tonight's my night to just relax and let you take care of me, and then the next time, I'm gonna take care of you." But what are those specific things that could make you feel like, "I get to leave, you know, the Mel Robbins business, Wonder Woman, I get to leave her in the office, and I get to show up in the bedroom with you and just let you take care of me and cherish me"?

Mel Robbins 56:40 Well, I think that's a really common experience.

Vanessa Marin 56:43 Yeah, very.

Mel Robbins 56:43 I mean, like, if you're a nurse working at a hospital-

Vanessa Marin 56:45 Oh, yeah.

Mel Robbins 56:45 ... you've been taken care of. If you're a teacher-

Vanessa Marin 56:47 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 56:47 ... you've been taken... If you're working the night-

Vanessa Marin 56:49 Parents.

Mel Robbins 56:49 ... shift, uh, you know, if you're caring for aging parents, like-

Vanessa Marin 56:52 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 56:52 ... it's not even that you have to, like, be doing this kind of perceived big thing. It's that you're doing big things all day long.

Vanessa Marin 57:00 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 57:01 And what I love about the word playful is that I do believe that there's probably history and legacy that comes from the lie we've all been told about the steamy, hot, spontaneous-

Vanessa Marin 57:13 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 57:14 ... crazy, mind-blowing sex.

Vanessa Marin 57:16 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 57:16 And the idea of just making it playful and fun-

Vanessa Marin 57:19 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 57:19 ... like, that just creates a whole new future and opportunity to connect.

Vanessa Marin 57:25 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 57:25 What are some little things that make a big difference in your sex life?

Vanessa Marin 57:30 Ooh, I'll give you three. First one, gratitude, which you might not expect, but research has shown that gratitude is actually the number one predictor of marital satisfaction. And we talked earlier about how emotional and physical intimacy are really deeply intertwined. So if we wanna feel closer to our partner and get, like, the maximum bang for our buck, gratitude is the fastest thing that you can do. It's l- l- literally a few seconds to say, "I appreciate this about you. I saw that you did that. Thank you so much for this." Second thing is some form of physical contact with each other. We talked a lot about non-sexual touch. It's so important to have that non-sexual touch, and in particular, I like a six-second kiss and a 20 to 30-second hug. We, we actually have research showing that those are the specific time frames it takes for our body to release oxytocin, the bonding hormone. The trust hormone makes us feel close to each other. And then the third thing, eye contact. It is wild how few couples make eye contact with each other. And I think that there is no greater strategy, tragedy than being in a long-term relationship with somebody but feeling literally and emotionally unseen by them.

Mel Robbins 58:44 So-

Vanessa Marin 58:45 So those three things. You can do those three things in under a minute every single day, and those will make such a big impact on your sex life.

Mel Robbins 58:51 Gratitude, eye contact, and then-

Vanessa Marin 58:54 Non-sexual touch.

Mel Robbins 58:54 ... you said a six-second kiss or a 30-second hug, and you release the oxytocin in your body-

Vanessa Marin 59:02 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 59:02 ... that is that sort of bonding chemical.

Vanessa Marin 59:04 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 59:05 Oh, I love that.

Vanessa Marin 59:06 You can even multitask. Do the hug while you're giving the gratitude. It's so fast. I know we all feel busy. We all feel overwhelmed. Sex can feel like this big, complicated, heavy thing. But if you can take those 60 seconds for each other once a day, it will make all the difference in the world.

Mel Robbins 59:23 You've been working as a licensed sex therapist for over 20 years. You're married. Vanessa, what are three things you would never do?

Vanessa Marin 59:31 Okay, I'll tell you these, and I have to say, though, that I have done all of these things. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 59:36 (laughs)

Vanessa Marin 59:36 I learned a lot of my advice by doing the exact opposite thing. But these are things that I would no longer do. I would never fake another orgasm. I would never mock my partner for initiating sex-

Mel Robbins 59:48 Hmm.

Vanessa Marin 59:48 ... even if he's initiating at a time that I'm really not open to it. Even if I'm thinking like, "R- re- now? You wanna have sex right now?" I won't mock him or make fun of him for that, because I wanna recognize the vulnerability it takes to do that. And the third thing is, I would not take it personally if my partner is experiencing performance issues. It is really, really challenging for a man to have his body not be responding the way that he wants it to. And unfortunately, so many of us women, again, myself included many times (laughs) in the past, we make it about us. Like, "You don't think I'm sexy? What's wrong with me? I did something bad," and that just creates so much more stress and anxiety for him in that moment. So recognizing, like, "Hey, I'm gonna be your teammate in this. I'm not gonna make it about me."

Mel Robbins 1:00:33 Hmm, beautiful. So you have this brand new deck of cards, The Sex Talk, with all these different kinds of questions that couples can ask, uh, each other. Why did you create this?

Vanessa Marin 1:00:45 The card deck is based off of our New York Times best-selling book, Sex Talks: The Five Conversations That Will Transform Your Love Life. We wanted to have a more fun and playful way to continue encouraging conversation, so Sex Talks is all about the five conversations that every couple needs to have that'll transform your sex life. And we thought, "Let's make it into a game too." (laughs) So we have this great card deck. There are cards broken down into five categories, and it just makes it feel fun to talk about sex. E- everybody's heard the advice, "Talk about sex," you know, when you talk about it with your partner, but none of us know, like, "But what do I say? How do I say it? When do I say it?"

Mel Robbins 1:01:21 Right.

Vanessa Marin 1:01:22 So with the book and the deck, we really set out to solve that for you and lay out for you exactly what to say.

Mel Robbins 1:01:28 Here are some of the questions. Would you rather have a two-minute quickie with an orgasm or 30 minutes of pleasure with no orgasm? Now, when I first read that, I'm like,-

Vanessa Marin 1:01:37 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:01:37 ... "Well, a quickie, and why would I want pleasure with no orgasm?" But if you ask it in a non-confrontational way-

Vanessa Marin 1:01:43 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:01:44 You might actually find-

Vanessa Marin 1:01:46 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:01:46 ... and I'd probably find with my husband, I'm realizing-

Vanessa Marin 1:01:49 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:01:49 ... he would prefer 30 minutes of pleasure and play-

Vanessa Marin 1:01:52 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:01:53 ... with no orgasm rather than a t- two-minute transactional-

Vanessa Marin 1:01:58 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:01:59 ... ejaculation.

Vanessa Marin 1:02:00 Mm-hmm. I love the would you rather format because it just makes it feel so much more fun to pick a, one example out of two. And that conversation about the length of sex is so important. Couples never talk about that, like, what is your ideal length of sex? And we often find that couples are on very different pages, like the woman will say, "Oh, like five minutes or so," and the man says, "Oh, I, I thought you wanted, like, half an hour, 45 minutes, going all night," like we hear about in songs all the times, so.

Mel Robbins 1:02:27 Is there a timeframe that, as a licensed sex therapist, you tend to hear more than another?

Vanessa Marin 1:02:32 We know that the average length of intercourse in particular, so I know we're talking a little heteronormatively here, but intercourse in particular lasts, on average, five minutes. So it tends to be pretty short.

Mel Robbins 1:02:44 Wow, and I, and I, the reason why I ask is because if time and being tired is my perceived biggest obstacle-

Vanessa Marin 1:02:51 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:02:52 ... to having more sex with the man that I love-

Vanessa Marin 1:02:54 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:02:55 ... then I would think the opinion that it should be longer than something quick-

Vanessa Marin 1:02:59 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:03:00 ... also keeps you from initiating. It's just like why you don't, uh, call a friend, you're like, "Well, I don't have time right now to catch up."

Vanessa Marin 1:03:04 Uh-huh.

Mel Robbins 1:03:05 And so maybe even just focusing on how long it is probably-

Vanessa Marin 1:03:10 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:03:10 ... is part of the problem in terms of us even initiating.

Vanessa Marin 1:03:14 Yeah. Yeah, this is actually something Xander makes fun of me all the time for because there'll be times that we have sex and I, I'm like, "Okay, we only, we only have a short amount of time, like, we gotta really get to it." And he always laughs, like, "We're usually pretty efficient if we need to be..." (laughs) Like, you don't have to worry about that. If we need to get it done, we will get it done. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:03:30 Is there anything else you wanna add?

Vanessa Marin 1:03:32 Let's talk a little bit more about the pleasure around sex. You know, we, uh, so many of us get so focused on desire and feeling like we're low desire or no desire-

Mel Robbins 1:03:41 Hmm.

Vanessa Marin 1:03:42 ... and we don't think about the pleasure. If you're not enjoying the sex that you're having, it doesn't make any sense for you to crave it. Why would you wanna have something that's not an enjoyable experience? Remember that the pleasure needs to be the most important part of this too.

Mel Robbins 1:03:58 Well, how do you create more pleasure if you're not enjoying what you're doing?

Vanessa Marin 1:04:02 We need to start having sex that prioritizes female pleasure as much as it prioritizes male pleasure. The way that we are taught, especially in male-female relationships, to have sex, it is all about male pleasure. And so we women are having this experience that, sure, it might be fun, it might be intimate, but we're not getting the kind of stimulation that our bodies need, and we're having sex on our partner's timeline. Once he has an orgasm, then it's over. It's all about his orgasm. So we need to right that balance and start having sex that prioritizes both partners' pleasure. And like I was saying earlier, like, the solution here is actually relatively simple. Female orgasm is not any more difficult, complicated, or mysterious than male orgasm. We need to take-

Mel Robbins 1:04:47 It seems like it 'cause it's on the inside, not the outside, you know what I mean?

Vanessa Marin 1:04:50 We d- we both need the same thing. We need stimulation of the part of our body that is the most sensitive. For us, that's the clitoris. For men, that's the penis. And we totally accept that for men. Yeah, you need stimulation of your penis, of course. But when it comes to the clitoris, a lot of people think of it as, "Oh, it's so hard to find and it's so difficult, and do you need that? And it's extra. Why can't you just orgasm from penetration?" But would we ever do that to a man? Would we ever say, "Why do you need, uh, your penis stimulated?"

Mel Robbins 1:05:17 (laughs)

Vanessa Marin 1:05:17 "Why can't you have an orgasm from that? That's so difficult."

Mel Robbins 1:05:20 "Can I just look at it?"

Vanessa Marin 1:05:20 "That's so much extra work, right?" Exactly. So a- again, it's not that difficult. It's just we need that clitoral stimulation, and most of us are having sex that heavily emphasizes intercourse. There is no clitoral stimulation. So I have this funny comparison that I always like to make, because our, when we're having intercourse, we're getting stimulation in our vagina, and the vagina does not have very many nerve endings compared to the clitoris, which has anywhere between 8 to 12,000 nerve endings in it. So from a nerve ending standpoint, intercourse for a woman is like playing with a man's balls. That might be fun for him. It might feel good, but would we expect a man to orgasm just from a little ball play? (laughs) Absolutely not.

Mel Robbins 1:06:02 Probably not.

Vanessa Marin 1:06:02 And would we make him feel bad for it? Like, "What's wrong with you that you can't h- have that ball orgasm?"

Mel Robbins 1:06:06 "This is taking too long."

Vanessa Marin 1:06:07 Yeah, "It's taking too... Those are, those balls are really hard to play with." (laughs) Right? Like, so we need to treat female pleasure the exact same way we treat male pleasure, and then the problem would be solved. But really getting clear on, what are the specific things that really bring you pleasure? And, and coming from a place of recognizing there's nothing wrong with you, you're not broken if you're not desiring sex that's not pleasurable. Makes perfect sense not to.

Mel Robbins 1:06:32 Well, it seems to be that you're working as you should-

Vanessa Marin 1:06:36 Exactly.

Mel Robbins 1:06:36 ... because why would you desire something you don't enjoy? So what would you say to the person who's listening who doesn't n- feel comfortable, or I think it's even deeper-

Vanessa Marin 1:06:48 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:06:48 ... that you, based on your past experiences-

Vanessa Marin 1:06:52 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:06:52 ... especially the negative ones, you don't know how to give yourself permission that you deserve pleasure?

Vanessa Marin 1:07:02 Mm-hmm. Yeah, you're exactly right. We have to start at the level of the deservingness. We are all deserving of pleasure. Pleasure is our birthright. You don't have to do anything to earn it. You just deserve it, and for being exactly who you are right now. And so I would get curious with myself and I would think, "Where in my life did I learn that I didn't deserve this?"

Mel Robbins 1:07:26 Hmm.

Vanessa Marin 1:07:27 "Who told me that? Where did I pick that up?" And then I would ask myself, "Do I wanna continue believing those voices? Do I wanna continue believing that I'm not deserving this? What does it cost me to continue believing that I don't deserve this? What could be available to me if I allowed myself to see that I do deserve this?" It's also a really beautiful conversation to have with your partner. The reality is, like, we all want to please our partners. Chris asked that, like, "What could I do to make it better?" I know you're thinking that too, "What could I do to make it better for him?" Like-

Mel Robbins 1:07:59 Make it more playful, clearly.

Vanessa Marin 1:08:00 Yeah. We all, we all want to do better for our partners, so recognizing, like, your partner's not sitting over there like, "Oh, thank God, I don't know anything about what they want. This is great for me." (laughs) Like, they wanna know you. That's intimacy. "I know you. You show me who you are. You show me all the parts of yourself that you're scared to show other people, and I'm here for that." And so being able to recognize that is so important.

Mel Robbins 1:08:23 You know, in your private practice, how often does, like, a past traumatic sexual experience-

Vanessa Marin 1:08:29 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:08:30 Or some adverse childhood event, or having a partner that cheated on you. How often is that the thing that's in the way between a couple?

Vanessa Marin 1:08:39 Oh, incredibly, incredibly often. Unfortunately, especially trauma is far too common. You know, research says about one in every three or four women will experience some sort of sexual trauma. And- and of course, your body gets the message that sex is unsafe, it's scary, it's all about what another person wants, not what about you want.

Mel Robbins 1:08:58 Mm.

Vanessa Marin 1:08:59 And so being able to reclaim that is really a journey.

Mel Robbins 1:09:03 And if you're listening and that's you, how would you advise somebody to bring it up with your current partner when you start to realize, "Oh, the reason why I freeze and I can't find freedom and pleasure is because of a past issue. It has nothing to do with you."

Vanessa Marin 1:09:18 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:09:18 How do you raise that with your partner?

Vanessa Marin 1:09:20 Yeah, most people don't make that connection. You know, people will say, "Oh, it happened so long ago."

Mel Robbins 1:09:25 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Marin 1:09:25 We- we're taught to really downplay it. "Oh, other people have had it worse than me. I've forgotten about it. I've moved past it." And so most people don't recognize that it lingers with us and it affects the sex life that we have now. So first, it's validating it for yourself. "Oh, I can see that there are parts of me that don't feel safe during sex," or, "There are parts of me that are, you know, performing something for my partner." Um, and then being able to have that conversation with your partner where you make it clear, "Yeah, this is nothing to do about you. I trust you. I know that you would never do this, but I'm recognizing my body as having this experience of being stuck in the past."

Mel Robbins 1:10:02 I had that issue. Like, where up in my head, I-

Vanessa Marin 1:10:05 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:10:05 ... knew it was something from the past and that I'm safe with Chris, but my body-

Vanessa Marin 1:10:10 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:10:10 ... had different programming.

Vanessa Marin 1:10:12 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:10:12 And so it wasn't until I recognized it and spoke about it that I could actually do the work to heal-

Vanessa Marin 1:10:18 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:10:18 ... and then take control of the pleasure-

Vanessa Marin 1:10:21 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:10:21 ... and how I wanted to experience-

Vanessa Marin 1:10:24 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:10:24 ... this act of intimacy with somebody who I feel deeply safe with.

Vanessa Marin 1:10:27 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:10:28 I've had a lot of male friends ask me recently, you know, whether it's somebody that they're dating that's new or something that's come up in a long-term relationship about, "I don't know what to do-"

Vanessa Marin 1:10:41 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:10:41 "... because I am with somebody that has this in their history."

Vanessa Marin 1:10:47 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:10:47 "How can I show up in a way that creates safety?"

Vanessa Marin 1:10:50 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:10:51 What advice do you have for somebody where you're the one who is in a relationship with somebody who is working through an issue like this?

Vanessa Marin 1:10:59 Mm-hmm. So first, let me just say, we actually have a free guide that we created for survivors of sexual abuse that also includes a component for how partners can show up. And we give that away absolutely for free. It's not meant to be a replacement for psychotherapy. We definitely recommend anybody who's gone through trauma to do personal therapy. Like, you deserve that too, that-

Mel Robbins 1:11:17 Of course.

Vanessa Marin 1:11:17 ... that treatment container. Um, but you can find it at vmtherapy.com/free, and we'll, we can link to it as well so people can find that. Um, but I really wanted to create something that would give practical tools for people who are looking to reclaim that sense of safety-

Mel Robbins 1:11:32 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Marin 1:11:33 ... and partners who wanna support that as well. But a couple of things that I can say is, it can be really helpful to let your partner be in control for a little while. So let them be the one who is initiating, and really check in with them. Uh, continue asking them, "Is this okay? Does this feel good?" And I- I actually prefer the question, "Does this feel good?" rather than just okay.

Mel Robbins 1:11:54 Mm.

Vanessa Marin 1:11:55 Um, another thing that you can do is if you catch them in moments, if you feel them tuning out, usually a lot of people can't-

Mel Robbins 1:12:02 Or freezing.

Vanessa Marin 1:12:02 Yeah. If you see them freezing, their eye contact is going somewhere else, you can just feel that sense of, "They're not there with me right now," stop in that moment and take some time to check in with them and say, "Hey, I, where'd you go? You know, I'm here with you."

Mel Robbins 1:12:16 Mm.

Vanessa Marin 1:12:16 "Is there anything you wanna talk about?" So really helping them feel like, uh, you're attuned to them. "I see what's going on with you and I'm not just gonna continue on. I wanna really connect with you."

Mel Robbins 1:12:25 Oh, I love that.

Vanessa Marin 1:12:26 I also love making a safe list. So a lot of, a lot of other people will, will come up with trigger lists, which I think is super valuable as well.

Mel Robbins 1:12:34 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Marin 1:12:34 Like, "Let's come up with, are there specific, you know, I don't like being in this position. I don't like being grabbed in this way. I don't like you saying this phrase." It's really useful for your partner to know all of that so they can avoid it.

Mel Robbins 1:12:45 Right.

Vanessa Marin 1:12:45 But I also like balancing it out by having a safe list or a joy list where it's like, "I really love it when we're in this position. I love it when you say this to me. I love it when you bring this kind of energy into sex." So that your partner can understand the specifics, the specific ways that they can support you.

Mel Robbins 1:13:03 I would love to have you, uh, just speak directly to the person who's listening.

Vanessa Marin 1:13:10 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:13:10 And they have just spent all this time learning from you and laughing at me and feeling sorry for my husband.

Mel Robbins 1:13:18 Um, but if there's one thing that they could take away from this conversation, and if you could wave a magic wand and tell them, "Here's the one thing I want you to do-"

Vanessa Marin 1:13:33 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:13:33 "... today," what would it be?

Vanessa Marin 1:13:35 I want you to start talking about sex with your partner. It is such an important foundation for us to lay with each other. There are no other aspects of our relationship that we don't talk about, or that we would expect would function perfectly with zero communication. Like, imagine trying to be a parent with zero communication. Imagine trying to cook dinner with zero (laughs) communication. Like, we won't, we don't do that to anything else other than our sex life. And so I know it can feel intimidating and scary, but I hope that you've learned some ways that we can ease into it and realize, like, it actually can be super fun and really connecting to talk about sex.

Mel Robbins 1:14:13 Well, I'm thrilled to have had the opportunity to be here with you. And as much as I make jokes about this as a way to deflect, I'm also feeling very grateful that Chris was willing to-

Vanessa Marin 1:14:26 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:14:26 ... ask you questions-

Vanessa Marin 1:14:27 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:14:27 ... that I could hear, that I could learn from. And I really do think everything that we've learned today is going to help...... the person listening, me, my husband, the person that's in your life-

Vanessa Marin 1:14:40 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:14:41 ... to enjoy this really important aspect of being an adult.

Vanessa Marin 1:14:46 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:14:46 So, what are your parting words?

Vanessa Marin 1:14:49 Well, I'm so glad to have been here. I hope that this episode has given you at least one or two little tidbits that you can take into your life. And I feel so much hope for you and for everybody listening that they can create that kind of intimacy that they've always wanted to experience-

Mel Robbins 1:15:07 Uh-

Vanessa Marin 1:15:07 ... with themselves and their partner.

Mel Robbins 1:15:08 I'm really excited. I actually can't wait to get home and have some fun playing around with Christopher Robbins.

Vanessa Marin 1:15:14 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:15:14 And I'm really excited for you as you're listening and how you're going to use everything that Vanessa shared with you today, based on the research, based on her 20 years of clinical practice, based on her best-selling book, to take control of this area of your life because you deserve intimacy, you deserve pleasure, you deserve play, you deserve a blissful, amazing orgasm.

Vanessa Marin 1:15:38 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:15:38 And now we know we're having sex before the date.

Vanessa Marin 1:15:41 Yes. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:15:42 Vanessa, thank you, thank you, thank you for all you do.

Vanessa Marin 1:15:44 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:15:44 Thank you for hopping on a plane and being here with us in our Boston studios.

Vanessa Marin 1:15:49 Thank you so much for having me.

Mel Robbins 1:15:51 Oh my gosh. I learned so... I'm so excited-

Vanessa Marin 1:15:53 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:15:53 ... that you were here. I'm so excited about what I learned, and I'm so excited for you. There is zero doubt in my mind that everything that you just learned will absolutely help you create a better life, feel more pleasure, feel more comfortable. You can share this episode as a way to break the ice, trap them in the car with you and