Modern WisdomBest Peptides, Stem Cells, Testosterone & Exercise Hacks - Biohacking Roundtable
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,076 words- 0:00 – 6:47
Science-Backed Peptide Regimes
- CWChris Williamson
People of the UK and Ireland, if you are coming to see me on tour, I want to hear from you. I want to know what problems you're dealing with, your worst first date, and any questions that you've got for me. And I will be bringing some of you up on stage to talk about it. So if you're coming to see me on tour this October, go to chriswilliamson.live/stories, submit them, and I might see you with a mic in front of your face very soon. Chriswilliamson.live/stories. Everyone tell me what peptides you're on. That's all I care about.
- BBBrigham Buhler
[laughs]
- BGBen Greenfield
Woo-hoo.
- BBBrigham Buhler
[laughs]
- BGBen Greenfield
Let's go. Which day of the week?
- BBBrigham Buhler
[laughs]
- BGBen Greenfield
Uh, which time of the day? Um, uh, I- I- I view peptides as a little bit more of, like, a condiment that's in your refrigerator that you might use for a specific reason and don't follow a, a, uh, an exact protocol every day. Um, for example, when I travel, I use Thymosin Alpha 1, which I'm on right now, as you can tell, uh, for im-
- BBBrigham Buhler
Yeah
- BGBen Greenfield
... for the immune system. Yeah.
- BBBrigham Buhler
Okay.
- BGBen Greenfield
Uh, I keep around BPC-157 and TB-500 for injuries. I run a couple of times a year a Tesamorelin, Ipamorelin, uh, with CJC-1295 cycle for growth hormone. And, um, those are the biggies. Uh, oh, C-Max and C-Link, intranasal.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- BGBen Greenfield
Uh, C-Max is a little bit more of, like, a cognition, uh, brain-derived neurotrophic factor booster, and then C-Link is more of like a, uh, like an anxiolytic, so kind of an upper-downer.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- BGBen Greenfield
It's, like, my version of Valium, caffeine. Yeah.
- BBBrigham Buhler
[laughs] What he said.
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah.
- BBBrigham Buhler
No. [laughs]
- BGBen Greenfield
[laughs]
- BBBrigham Buhler
Uh, and pretty much that protocol I agree with, and I tell everyone the answer's not at the bottom of a peptide bottle. Like, diet, lifestyle, nutrition, uh, living by the principles first.
- BGBen Greenfield
Mm-hmm.
- BBBrigham Buhler
These are, like, additives that can help optimize your health, especially with our food sources and how stripped they are of the nutrients. Um, the only compounds that I think I take that you didn't discuss is IGF-LR3. I don't know if you've ever messed with that. Uh, insulin growth factor, LR3. So a lot of people take growth hormone historically, but the reason they were taking growth hormone was in an effort to get all the therapeutic benefits that growth hormone gives you when it converts to IGF.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- BBBrigham Buhler
And so if you were to use the peptide IGF, you get all the benefits of growth hormone but with a much better safety profile that will not impact your natural growth hormone levels.
- BGBen Greenfield
Right.
- BBBrigham Buhler
Um, and so that's why I'm a huge fan of IGF.
- SPSpeaker
So-
- BGBen Greenfield
Does it, does it have, like, a similar, uh... Like, like, pure HGH, you get a little bit of, of almost, like, a glucocorticoid response where, you know, there's a surge in cortisol. Your resting glucose tends to be higher. A lot of people don't sleep as well at night. Because it, it goes on a downstream pathway, do you skip out on a lot of that?
- BBBrigham Buhler
Yeah, you, you do skip out on a lot, but bigger than that is you're not impacting your natural growth levels, so, you know, you're still in your 40... I'm in my 40s.
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah.
- 6:47 – 21:37
The Health Hacks Scientists Actually Swear By
- SPSpeaker
What are some biohacks or some interventions that you use or believe in but you don't have any data to support? What are some of the things that you're like, "I fucking love this and I know that it works for me"?
- BGBen Greenfield
Mm. Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
The, the doctor in the corner is shaking her head. We'll get to the fucking bro science too
- BGBen Greenfield
Oh, yeah. Let's go. Let's go bro science.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- BGBen Greenfield
Uh, BioCharger, have you ever seen this?
- SPSpeaker
Oh my God, I have one.
- BGBen Greenfield
Good. Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Wait. Bro. I have one.
- BGBen Greenfield
The doctor backs me up.
- SPSpeaker
Wait, listen. Oh wait, no I don't. I don't.
- BGBen Greenfield
[laughs] Don't.
- SPSpeaker
I don't. So I-
- BGBen Greenfield
But you've owned one
- SPSpeaker
Wait. Wait
- BGBen Greenfield
... Facebook Marketplace it.
- SPSpeaker
No. I, okay.
- BGBen Greenfield
Tell me
- SPSpeaker
So I saved a patient's life, and she said, "Pick any, uh, piece of equipment that you want." And she keeps talking about this BioCharger.
- BGBen Greenfield
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
She's like, "My sex drive is up. It's like the best thing ever." I'm like, "Okay. Well, I already have a sauna, I already have a cold plunge."
- BGBen Greenfield
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
What about the BioCharger?
- BGBen Greenfield
Already have sex drive. Yep.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. But so I got a B- I have a BioCharger.
- BGBen Greenfield
How did you find it?
- SPSpeaker
My husband, he's like, "I feel this." I mean, who knows? But-
- BGBen Greenfield
It does, it does red light-
- SPSpeaker
But does it work?
- BGBen Greenfield
... PEMF
- 21:37 – 24:02
Do Heat Shock Proteins Really Matter?
- BGBen Greenfield
he does make a good point in that if you want the actual heat shock protein benefit of a sauna, which is the, the main mechanism that kicks in at the higher temperatures, so not just like the detox from sweating or whatever, but the actual cellular resilience effect, that you need a hotter temperature than most likely a lot of people are actually using. With the caveat being, it's kind of a paradox, that sauna decreases risk of dementia and Alzheimer's. But when your cranium-
- SPSpeaker
Yes
- BGBen Greenfield
... gets hot and you're getting above about 200 degrees and you don't have your sexy Elven sauna hat, then you actually increase risk of dementia and Alzheimer's. So he makes a pretty good point that you probably need to go hotter than you're actually going or move more in your sauna or both. Uh, but you need to invest in a, in a wool cap to do so.
- CWChris Williamson
That's the protection.
- BGBen Greenfield
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Interesting.
- BGBen Greenfield
That's the protection. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, how important is the heat?
- BGBen Greenfield
And ice balls.
- CWChris Williamson
How im-
- SPSpeaker
I was gonna ask, are you gonna ice your balls?
- CWChris Williamson
Go to ice balls.
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah, ice the... I bought, I bought my sons the, I forget the brand, but they're-
- CWChris Williamson
Nutsicles
- BGBen Greenfield
... they're the ice... Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Did you get Nutsicles?
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah. Like I have 18-year-old sons and I want grandkids, and we do sauna a lot.
- SPSpeaker
That is the thing they say, that if you're trying to reproduce, uh, that the hot temperatures can decrease fertility.
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, the crazy thing-
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... is, uh, I was, when I went to go and freeze my sperm, I was talking about, oh, okay, what do I need to avoid? Da, da, da, da, da. One of the things that the guy came back to me and said is, "There's so many guys that go away on a bachelor party and they just hang in a jacuzzi, you know, like just chilling with their boys for ages."
- BGBen Greenfield
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
He was like, "That will do so much more damage to your sperm count than a ton of saunas because you've got direct contact from the heat of the water, just like f- absolutely infusing your testosterone-
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah, yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, your testicles with, with-
- BGBen Greenfield
And chlorine and parabens and phthalates and everything else gonna be absorbed through scrotal tissue.
- CWChris Williamson
Probably not great. How important, how important are the heat shock proteins? Like, do we really need those, or can you get a lot of the benefits without getting into that, that upper echelon?
- BGBen Greenfield
Oh, you, you, you can get, uh... And, and as a matter of fact, this was a couple of months ago, they looked at sauna versus weight training, and the weight training protocol produced heat shock protein elevation similar to what people were getting from a sauna session. I don't remember the time or the temperature being used, but weights would be one. Just exercising in the heat in general. Uh, paradoxically, cold plunging can increase heat shock proteins because it's a thermal regulatory mechanism. So there are other ways that you can stress the body, kind of like fasting and autophagy, to get a similar pathway activated.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
- 24:02 – 27:17
Why Resonance Breathing Is So Powerful
- CWChris Williamson
That's interesting. I've been loving, uh, resonance breathing lamps. There's this lamp called Om, Om.Health.
- BGBen Greenfield
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And, uh, it's got FDA-registered heart rate sensor on the top of it. So you can imagine like a big glass lamp, and on the top there's a stone, and that's got 100 hertz sensor. And you just hold the stone, and the lamp is connected to your Wi-Fi, has the algorithm, and it detects your HRV. When you breathe, the stone vibrates, so you're just breathing up and down with the stone. It maximizes your resonance. It gets you into resonance. It's maximizing that arrhythmia between it. And, uh-
- BGBen Greenfield
Makes a sound.
- SPSpeaker
I just randomly ordered one of those.
- BGBen Greenfield
Makes, makes like an ocean sound.
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, it's-
- SPSpeaker
Literally like two weeks ago
- BGBen Greenfield
... yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's fucking awesome.
- SPSpeaker
I got targeted on Instagram.
- BGBen Greenfield
So-
- CWChris Williamson
Rules.
- SPSpeaker
I was like-
- BGBen Greenfield
So fu- [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Absolutely rules
- BGBen Greenfield
... funny, funny story. So, so, uh, uh, Jay Wiles-
- CWChris Williamson
Yes
- BGBen Greenfield
... the, the, the HRV expert who developed that lamp, I used to have this thing where I didn't wanna do a podcast without a sidekick, without a podcast host.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- BGBen Greenfield
Jay was my podcast sidekick for like four years.
- CWChris Williamson
No way.
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah. He, he was-
- CWChris Williamson
He's the smart guy
- BGBen Greenfield
... he was like the witty banter guy, and he's super smart. And like, like whenever anybody would ask a question about HRV, like Jay would jump in. And then he developed this lamp, and it actually is cool. Like it works.
- CWChris Williamson
It's fucking... It's absolutely awesome. The best thing about it is you can grab it and use it while you're watching TV So, uh, let's say that you're lying in bed or you're on the couch or whatever, if you've got the lamp nearby, you can just be watching the movie and-
- BGBen Greenfield
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... you can crank out 45-minute resonance breathwork sessions-
- BGBen Greenfield
Right
- CWChris Williamson
... without even thinking about it.
- 27:17 – 36:24
Are MUSE Stem Cells the Next Big Breakthrough?
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, any other cool shit, like interventions or supplements or whatever you've been playing with?
- BBBrigham Buhler
The other, the other big one that I've seen and, and I know Ben's experienced it too, is, uh, the MUSE stem cells. It's, it's-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- BBBrigham Buhler
... they, so a scientist, uh-
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah
- BBBrigham Buhler
... Mari Dezawa out of Japan discovered a subset phenotype of stem cell called MUSE, and it's fascinating because everything they've been doing, uh, outside of the United States with tinkering with stem cells and trying to put them under stress and trying to get them to adapt and change, has been in an effort to create a cell that would have a certain phenotype that would be optimal for healing, recovery, uh, and treating an array of different chronic diseases, but that would not become tumorigenic.
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah.
- BBBrigham Buhler
Right? So one of the challenges of a cell that can differentiate, meaning it can become anything, is that cell could, in theory, hypothetically, become a cancer cell. Or what if-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Right
- BBBrigham Buhler
... it came into contact with a cancer cell and took on a cancer phenotype-
- CWChris Williamson
Yep, right
- BBBrigham Buhler
... and then exasperated that, and now we put trillions of these cells in your body.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- BBBrigham Buhler
And so-
- CWChris Williamson
Just turbocharged that cancer
- BBBrigham Buhler
... fascinating.
- BGBen Greenfield
Right.
- BBBrigham Buhler
Uh, 2014, this is another woman, one of the leading scientists in stem cell research. 2014, she discovered this cell. Um, it is a... MUSE stands for multi-lineage stress enduring, um, which basically means traditional stem cells, you have to cryo freeze negative 80 degrees or more, and the second you thaw them out, they begin to die, and so you've got to get them into the body quickly. These MUSE cells can stay alive for days at room temperature. Um, less than 2% of stem cells are MUSE, but they're the super soldiers.
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah, they've got little MUSE carcass-
- BBBrigham Buhler
So and all this research is now coming together.
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah.
- BBBrigham Buhler
Like this scientist, uh, Dominic Deutscher out of Germany, uh, was a professor at Stanford, and he couldn't understand why diabetic patients didn't seem to be responding in certain ways like other patients. Now that he, he, he realized in his study, even though they had stem cells, they were missing this other tagged cell that was some sort of subset, and what it was was a MUSE. And so here's why that's important. A MUSE cell, in layman's terms, can become anything. So like when you're a kindergartner, you could grow up and be a scientist, a doctor, an attorney.
- CWChris Williamson
Ben Greenfield, or us.
- BBBrigham Buhler
Yeah. [laughs] Ben Greenfield.
- CWChris Williamson
environment. Yeah.
- BBBrigham Buhler
Whatever it is, because you haven't set your identity yet. So in America, most people who say stem cells don't work, they're getting bone marrow aspirate or they're taking cells from fat tissue.
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah.
- BBBrigham Buhler
And the problem with that is that cell's already developed a phenotype.
- BGBen Greenfield
And the fraction is very large.
- BBBrigham Buhler
Yes, and it, and-
- 36:24 – 45:23
Are GLP-1s Causing Too Much Muscle Loss?
- CWChris Williamson
So why, why are GLPs a concern for sarcopenia, and are you more worried about sarcopenia than osteoporosis?
- BBBrigham Buhler
I'm worried about both, and that is a great question. We've never had the ability to lose this much weight-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- BBBrigham Buhler
... this fast outside of bariatric surgery. We are at the intersection of something that we've never seen before, which is very unusual in medicine, to be at a place that we've never been.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- BBBrigham Buhler
We now have the capacity to reduce weight magnitudes-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- BBBrigham Buhler
... than, uh, of weight that we've never had before, which means if in fact these drugs are utilized, which I think the number is, they're expecting somewhere along between 40 to 60 million people on these medications.
- BGBen Greenfield
It's like 20% of Americans.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah. Plus all the people who are just like using gray market stuff and not even telling anybody.
- BBBrigham Buhler
Well, hopefully-
- CWChris Williamson
Like unreported. Yeah
- BBBrigham Buhler
... hopefully, um, things are, are going to evolve there. But what is gonna happen is if obesity has been our focus, which it has been for the last 50 years, we haven't gotten very far. All of a sudden, GLP-1s are now available.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- BBBrigham Buhler
Obesity will become less of a problem. But the fact that people are sedentary, sarcopenia
- SPSpeaker
The loss of muscle mass and strength is going to become a primary problem, which then we know how bone is formed.
- BGBen Greenfield
Hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And by the way, osteoporosis is a pediatric disease with geriatric outcomes. Osteoporosis is a pediatric disease with geriatric outcomes. Meaning, what... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- BGBen Greenfield
You explain for the idiot in the room, please.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. [laughs] Uh, wait.
- BGBen Greenfield
Idiots in the room. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Um, meaning what you do when you are younger to protect bone and muscle plays a role in the outcome.
- BGBen Greenfield
Oh, okay. So yeah.
- BBBrigham Buhler
Hmm.
- BGBen Greenfield
So you're saying it's like, it's like predictive of your-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- BGBen Greenfield
... your osteoporotic-
- SPSpeaker
Yes
- BGBen Greenfield
... status late in life-
- SPSpeaker
So women athletes-
- 45:23 – 54:12
How GLP-1s Could Be Changing Desire
- BGBen Greenfield
mean, yep, yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And, you know-
- CWChris Williamson
What's the mechanism for the sex drive in women?
- SPSpeaker
Dopamine. Dopamine brain reward pathways. They, 'cause it's, the pathways are very similar, and they're looking at GLP-1 for alcohol addiction-
- BBBrigham Buhler
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... and drug addiction.
- BGBen Greenfield
Mm-hmm. Right.
- SPSpeaker
It's not purely-
- BGBen Greenfield
Any- any- anything that's hedonic
- SPSpeaker
... anything that's hedonic. It's not solely just related to body fat and appetite. It has brain effects.
- BBBrigham Buhler
It's not only found in the gut and slowing, like, the-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- BBBrigham Buhler
... making you feel full and slowing gastric emptying. It's also you have GLP-1 in the brain, and so it impacts your, uh, dopamine response.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, desire generally.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, and it's still-
- BGBen Greenfield
Zombie mode.
- CWChris Williamson
I brought this up, I brought this up with Rogan. I was like, what happens when our entire economy is driven on consumerism and you pharmacologically suppress desire, right? Like, most people are buying shit, not things that they need, just things that they want.
- BGBen Greenfield
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And it's sort of repeat, habituation. I'm just gonna satisfy, satiate myself. And yeah, maybe it's sex-
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... maybe it's video games, maybe it's porn, maybe it's social media, maybe it's weed. So-
- BGBen Greenfield
You're, you're going down the GLP to GDP road. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Wait, but here's what we're starting to-
- CWChris Williamson
Ah, very nice
- SPSpeaker
... well, I totally missed that, but as usual-
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... I'm like the mom in the room. But what's happening is that, so I see patients in my clinic, right? Strong medical. People are getting a little depressed. They don't get the same enjoyment from sex, from eating, or from spending.
- CWChris Williamson
People on GLPs get depressed.
- SPSpeaker
Yes. And now I want to be really clear, I'm not anti GLP-1s. I mean, we prescribe them. But it's the idea that, kind of what Brigham was saying, is that we understand the utilization in trials with sick people with Type 2 diabetes. We don't really know all of the other secondary outcomes that this can cause. And again, part of them are positive, but decreased sex drive, uh, fun, mood, all of those things, those are a problem.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, I remember looking at s-
- 54:12 – 1:07:07
Why Has Testosterone Become So Demonised?
- CWChris Williamson
Why do you think testosterone's become so demonized?
- SPSpeaker
You know, um-
- BGBen Greenfield
Because it makes your blood super thick-
- SPSpeaker
No. [laughs]
- BGBen Greenfield
... and gives you a heart attack.
- SPSpeaker
So in the '30s, people used testosterone. It was discovered in the '30s as a medical intervention, and there was one study that came out by Huggins, and it showed that testosterone caused prostate cancer. So in the '30s, people were using it as a medical intervention. It wasn't, there wasn't a stigma associated with it. At the same time, people were interested were seeing a increase in sport performance, right? Because we do know-
- BGBen Greenfield
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... that testosterone increases muscle mass. Combine-
- BGBen Greenfield
Right
- SPSpeaker
... testosterone training, you get better outcomes.
- BGBen Greenfield
And, and motivation for forward motion.
- SPSpeaker
All of these things. For decades, people would castrate men because they were worried that it was going to make or start prostate cancer-
- BGBen Greenfield
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... and treat prostate cancer. The study was wrong.
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah. There were only three patients in the study.
- SPSpeaker
They went... There were... I can't believe you know this, so-
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
There were three patients in this study, so they castrated men.
- BGBen Greenfield
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
They didn't put anyone on-
- CWChris Williamson
You mean, you mean we didn't give men testosterone?
- SPSpeaker
No. They suppressed androgens.
- BGBen Greenfield
No, they actually tied rubber bands around their balls. Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
They-
- BGBen Greenfield
There were three patients-
- SPSpeaker
They don't relate to that. [laughs]
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Because they were, because this Huggins study-
- SPSpeaker
Huggins, yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... said if you've got too much testosterone, you might get prostate cancer, therefore we'll cut your balls off.
- 1:07:07 – 1:12:43
Should We Be Prioritising Testosterone?
- BBBrigham Buhler
Ben, you've, you've experimented a lot, obviously, every performance intervention under the sun. Where does testosterone rank for you, like, compared with sleep or resistance training-
- BGBen Greenfield
Mm-hmm
- BBBrigham Buhler
... or light or diet, stress, stuff like that? How important is-
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah. In my defense, I actually have not sunned my perineum, so-
- BBBrigham Buhler
Recently?
- BGBen Greenfield
Uh, re- yeah. Um, since I've been in Austin, uh, I haven't had the opportunity. The, um, uh, uh, I think it depends primarily on age, right? So I've been on testosterone for four years. I began when I was 40. The main thing I noticed was being able to recover a lot faster, uh, being able to, to hit the gym for, you know, what I do in the morning that keeps me sane, keeps me active, and keeps me productive and keeps my head clear. I can continue to do that day after day, whereas I was noting a, like, a significant increase in the amount of time that I needed for recovery between workouts just based on HRV, based on soreness. Um, so I, I would rank it higher and higher in order of priority the older a man gets. I know we're talking about men, but obviously women are part of this discussion as well. Uh-
- SPSpeaker
Which they haven't really been studied nearly as much
- BGBen Greenfield
... yeah, yeah. And I, I would, I would say somewhere in the range of 35 to 40 years old in most men. Gabrielle probably has, has the, the actual demographic data somewhere tucked away in a giant book. Uh, uh, it, it's becomes pretty important. So I would say for me, as I age, increasingly important.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Can I just... Sorry.
- BGBen Greenfield
And, and one, one other thing that we should mention, of course, is the fertility discussion, right? The, the younger you are, and this is the problem with the whole looks maxing community of dudes totally screwing themselves over from, like, a legacy and childhood standpoint when they're 16 years old. Um, y- we, we do need to bear in mind that a 30-year-old who may be hypogonadal and may still face some of this uphill battle in terms of a post-industrial lifestyle or a modern lifestyle, keeping them that way and not being able to do things besides testosterone replacement therapy needs to know there's an impact on fertility, and their practitioner needs to be aware of, like, methods to, to maintain, uh-
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, I froze my s-
- BGBen Greenfield
... uh, sperm quality at some point
- CWChris Williamson
... I froze my sperm last year-
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... just in case I ever wanted to get on TRT at some point.
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm not on it, and I was like, "Ah, I just feel like it's probably a good insurance policy," and it is so cheap.
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, you wanna talk about some fucking patriarchy? One of the places that it definitely exists is how cheap it is for guys to freeze their sperm compared with women to freeze their eggs.
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah. Well, it's probably less expensive because you're us- you're using Mike's butcher shop down the street for the, for the, the main freezer.
- CWChris Williamson
That's true.
- SPSpeaker
But it's a great solution.
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah, yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And also we, just because someone goes on testosterone, there are, like you had mentioned, there are interventions like HCG. You have to work with a provider that knows. Doesn't mean you're gonna be infertile. 10% of men just at baseline have low fertility.
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
2% of men have, like, no sperm. So if a guy is hypogonadal and he's younger, he should still be treated. You should bank his sperm. You should give him the appropriate discussion. Give him some HCG. But you wouldn't want to withhold a medical treatment. I, I just think it's a, it's a mistake. And if we don't de-stigmatize the idea that somehow testosterone is gonna ruin the world and make them bald and be, be angry-
- CWChris Williamson
It's wrapped up in a moral, it's wrapped up in a moral panic, and it... I'm kind of fascinated by the, I've never thought about it before, but the equivalency of GLPs on one side-
- SPSpeaker
Yes
- CWChris Williamson
... and testosterone on the other. Like-
- 1:12:43 – 1:24:19
The Fight Against the Peptide Ban
- CWChris Williamson
I wanna know what's happening with peptide access right now, 'cause you were part of this big, uh, uh, hearing that recently happened.
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
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- BBBrigham Buhler
So-
- CWChris Williamson
What's going on?
- BBBrigham Buhler
No, thank you. That's a good question. So, um, uh, I've been trying to ring the bell on this since it started. Uh, during the Biden administration, the FDA kind of in a vacuum blindsided the public by putting peptides on the naughty list and said these 17 peptides are now considered dangerous to compound. Um, meaning overnight the regulatory landscape shifted. And so compounding pharmacies like mine legally could not make a safe product that had been in the market oftentimes for more than five, six years, um, and with no heads-up. Like, we weren't seeing adverse safety data, nothing. Uh, one of the ways that I've Tried to prove this is I submitted multiple FOIA requests, um, to the FDA over the last three years, and they had not responded to a single FOIA request. Um, so when Secretary Kennedy was put into this position and was given the opportunity to try and drive change, this was one of the first things I discussed with him was, "Hey, we've submitted these FOIA requests. I ha- we haven't gotten answers. Industry's just asking for guidance. We're not making this, but you created a gray and black market overnight."
- BGBen Greenfield
Mm-hmm.
- BBBrigham Buhler
And so just two weeks ago, they federally indicted a gray market peptide manufacturer out of Florida who was buying all of his API from China-
- BGBen Greenfield
Mm-hmm
- BBBrigham Buhler
... that was tainted with testosterone.
- BGBen Greenfield
I did not know that.
- BBBrigham Buhler
And so women were injecting [laughs]
- BGBen Greenfield
Sick. Oh, testosterone. Sick.
- BBBrigham Buhler
Women were injecting-
- BGBen Greenfield
That's gross
- BBBrigham Buhler
... uh, f- pharmaceutical ingredients.
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah, so the pharmaceutical ingredients.
- BBBrigham Buhler
So it's the, the base product that you use to compound the medication. Um, so that being said, after a lot of lobbying, begging, pleading, and fl-flights to DC, and, uh, thank God for guys like Joe, I'll say, you know, Rogan's been a voice on this and ringing the bell that, hey, why are we banning peptides? Why are we forcing people to gray and black market? We had a hearing. Um, so a-and that's a crazy story in itself. We could write a book on it. Literally, they had the, the group built out. Um, we submitted over 800 studies, 800 pa- 8- 5,000 pages of documents. Um, we did a retrospective analysis of 16 million patients that were on BPC-157. Out of that, we found three adverse events. Three adverse events.
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah. Somebody said that there by the hundreds of thousands of, of uses of multiple peptides, including BPC, and, like, the, the number of adverse events was close to zero.
- BBBrigham Buhler
Correct.
- BGBen Greenfield
On almost-
- BBBrigham Buhler
And versus let's, let's look at the-
- BGBen Greenfield
Or of there were, what? Seven, seven and a half adverse last time
- BBBrigham Buhler
... this is one of the largest retrospective analysis ever done of a medication. And so I want to be clear 'cause another famous influencer clinician just took to the internet and tried to debunk this hearing. Uh, the hearing wasn't about efficacy. We, this is what, this is a confusion for people-
- BGBen Greenfield
It was about safety
- BBBrigham Buhler
... and it, it's all about safety-
- BGBen Greenfield
Oh, that, that's interesting
- BBBrigham Buhler
... because what people fail to realize, again, going back to the process and the legal structure, if you file for a new drug indication, what I am asking you for is to give me Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare dollars. I'm asking you to force employers to cover a treatment for an employee because 90% of Americans get their coverage through employers. And so that's the reason insurance plans go up every year, because they're monetizing all this stuff. And so this is not that world. This is a cash pay product-
- BGBen Greenfield
Mm-hmm
- BBBrigham Buhler
... for a patient using their hard-earned money to decide under the supervision of a clinician to pu-fulfill this prescription through a board-certified pharmacy that is inspected by both the state and federal government, and we had a safe pathway, and that pathway was removed in a vacuum with no evidence.
- 1:24:19 – 1:29:37
Health Freedom vs Protection: Where’s the Line?
- CWChris Williamson
Who gets to decide how much risk people should be able to take with their bodies? Like, should the FDA protect people from making bad medical decisions? Or, like, at what point, basically, how much evidence should be required before adults can access experimental treatment?
- BBBrigham Buhler
That's a difficult one. I think it's risk reward. I say this with everything. A- again, every an- peptides are not a silver bullet, right? They're a tool in the tool belt. But for somebody who's... A, a real world example is, um, Brett, Brett Favre. He, he's diagnosed with Parkinson's. This Parkinson's is terminal. It is progressive. The doctors basically say, "We've got nothing." But there are things that can help, that have a shot at helping, and a lot of those trials are in, uh, other countries and not accepted here, but there are modalities that he's getting benefits from, and those modalities are being obstructed. And so it, I believe in a patient's right to choose, and one of the things we're working on here in Texas, uh, Senator or Sec- sorry, Congresswoman Lacey Hull is going to submit a bill in Texas that's going to be called the Right to Try Act, and the Right to Try Act is going to try and provide patients in Texas with medical freedom. And we're trying to do the same thing at the federal level. The, the belief is, through citizens' petitions, if you're a chronically ill patient or you have a terminal disease or you have some sort of catastrophic debilitating issue, why is the government stopping you from using a stem cell product?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- BBBrigham Buhler
Why is the government stopping you? Y- you have-
- CWChris Williamson
So you're saying beyond the-
- BBBrigham Buhler
This is the end of your runway
- CWChris Williamson
... beyond the threshold of severity in terms of your health, you're allowed to throw anything that you want at the wall within reason?
- BBBrigham Buhler
I, I think you should. That's my personal opinion.
- CWChris Williamson
But still, a lot of that would still be out of pocket though, right?
- BBBrigham Buhler
All of it's out of pocket.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- BBBrigham Buhler
Yeah, none of this would be covered by insurance, which goes back to the main crux of the issue, like if somebody wants to spend their cash-
- CWChris Williamson
Right
- BBBrigham Buhler
... to sun their, [laughs] you know-
- CWChris Williamson
Right
- BBBrigham Buhler
... like, who are you to tell them?
- CWChris Williamson
If I, if I wanna fly to Thailand for double Ds-
- BBBrigham Buhler
I was gonna say tank, but [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
... I can do it.
- BBBrigham Buhler
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I just gotta pay for it myself. Yeah.
- BBBrigham Buhler
And so where people are leaving the country to go get treatments and it's like, these treatments should be available here. It-- we don't need Big Brother impacting every decision. And I get, like, protecting the consumer, but where was that protection with glyphosates? Where was that protection with the antidepressants, with the OxyContin, with the level of corruption we've seen from our regulatory bodies that are supposed to be here to protect us?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- BBBrigham Buhler
Right? And those people s- are swapping spit oftentimes with industry at a level that's na- nauseating where-
- SPSpeaker
But it's challenging because you might be doing something in a way that is ethical, but if you've got another, uh, compounding pharmacy like in Florida where they're putting all this crap in, how do we protect the people? I do believe in medical agency, that people should have the freedom to do whatever they want. If they wanna use a medication because they have five pounds to lose, they should be able to get to choose. We should not, as physicians, ever dictate what an individual wants to do. There has to be agency. But then the question is: how do we protect the people that don't know and think they're getting one thing and doing something else?
- BBBrigham Buhler
I think we have to assess it as a different model. That's where I keep going with this. There's the insurance model, and then there's the cash pay model.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- BBBrigham Buhler
And in the cash pay model, we don't need a new drug indication that costs 300 to a billion dollars, because it's going to stifle and limit innovation, and that entire model was built around a framework that was built by industry, that has a reason to build a moat around accessibility of care, because they are monetizing chronic disease at an astronomical level. That's why the average American in the '80s was on one prescription drug, and now the average American's on four or more prescription drugs.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- BBBrigham Buhler
And everybody's make-- But we're the sickest country, developed nation in the world.
- 1:29:37 – 1:36:16
Is Plasmapheresis the Next Longevity Breakthrough?
- SPSpeaker
care for people.
- CWChris Williamson
Talking about experimental forward-thinking stuff, getting into some fun things. What are the most-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... exciting interventions that you've come across recently, some of the most experimental things that you've been playing around with?
- BGBen Greenfield
Oh, man. I mean, uh, we were just talking about plasmapheresis. That's an interesting one, just because there's all sorts of different blood and plasma filtration protocols that people are turning to for microplastics, for lipid management, for mold. Uh-
- CWChris Williamson
Can you explain the plasmapheresis? Like-
- BGBen Greenfield
Like, like beyond plasmapheresis
- SPSpeaker
I did, by the way. Waves2Well
- BGBen Greenfield
... like, yeah, like, like literally like-
- SPSpeaker
Oh my gosh. No.
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs] I love it
- BGBen Greenfield
... pull- pulling, pulling your, your, your blood out, filtering the plasma, replacing typically with, uh, either albumin or in some cases, like actual human plasma or like, um, Brigham has this, this soup of like stem cells and exosomes and all sorts of-
- SPSpeaker
I didn't get that one
- BGBen Greenfield
... cool stuff that you can get put in. Um, and so the idea is it's like an oil change for the body. Um, and, uh, you know, there, there's even places, uh, like in, in Mexico and Europe that will do blood filtration, not just plasma. Uh, different filtration mediums that are designed for different purposes. Like, there's a heparin-based filter that-
- CWChris Williamson
Is it?
- BGBen Greenfield
... is designed for spike protein, right? Like, like a, like a sticky fly trap for spike protein-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- BGBen Greenfield
... uh, for something like long COVID. Uh, there's another one called the marker filter that is for microplastics. That, that's a, a specific filtration medium for that. Um, so that's one that, uh, a lot of people are like electively doing out of pocket a lot of times internationally.
- SPSpeaker
It's very expensive.
- BGBen Greenfield
Like TPE, like you can literally do that at, at Brigham's clinic. Like you can do a, a basic plasmapheresis very easily, you know, depending on, on how many times you're squeezing the little rubber ball that you get to hold-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- BGBen Greenfield
... two, you know, four or five hours, but you're just basically sitting in a chair getting-
- BBBrigham Buhler
And then the problem with that though is like when, that, that was what I was alluding to earlier. When a guy like Joe posts that, immediately it's like-
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah
- BBBrigham Buhler
... this is my moment for these clinicians, and they just tag his video-
- SPSpeaker
Isn't that weird though?
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah.
- BBBrigham Buhler
... and throw it up.
- SPSpeaker
It's weird.
- BBBrigham Buhler
And they're trying to just riff and-
- 1:36:16 – 1:44:44
The Best Cost-Free Longevity Interventions
- CWChris Williamson
What are the strongest longevity interventions that are cost-free? Because much of this stuff sounds-
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... maybe difficult to access.
- BGBen Greenfield
Um-
- CWChris Williamson
People are outside of the country.
- BGBen Greenfield
So yeah-
- SPSpeaker
Lifting
- BGBen Greenfield
... epi- epidemiologically, yes. Lifting.
- SPSpeaker
Lifting.
- BGBen Greenfield
Grip strength is often identified as a metric, but it's not because people who have like big, meaty hands live longer. It's because people who, who, who lift heavy objects and do some type of manual labor or artificial manual labor inside of a gym tend to have high grip strength as a byproduct of that. So you're not going to live longer by having like a hand grip dynamometer in your car that you're squeezing all the time. It'll make a little bit of a difference, but physical activity that exhausts the grip would be one. Uh, VO2 max is another, and I think the, the misperception is that you need to do like these like fancy Norwegian 4x4 protocols to significantly increase VO2 max, meaning like four minutes maximum sustainable pace, balls to the wall, four-minute recovery, four times through as a sample prescribed protocol for VO2 max. I mean, just yesterday there was a study that came out that showed that small bursts anywhere from three to five times a week of 10 to 20 seconds had an impact-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- BGBen Greenfield
... on VO2 max. So the- these are like tiny bursts, like on, like on an AirDyne, just quick sprints.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you, you think, uh, VO2 max or muscle mass is more important when it comes to training for longevity, if you could pick one?
- BGBen Greenfield
Uh, I would, I would choose-
- SPSpeaker
How long does it take to find longevity?
- BGBen Greenfield
If I, if I had to pick one, I would choose muscle mass because I think low muscle mass, I'm not just saying this 'cause Gabriel's sitting next to me.
- BBBrigham Buhler
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
I picked him out at the same event.
- BGBen Greenfield
But puts you at a higher risk for frailty, and I think frailty is one of the... Like, not being able to outrun a lion is less likely to kill you than like stepping off a curb and, and being frail, like with the VO2 max equation. Like joking aside, yes, VO2 max can have a significant impact on cardiovascular health. But you can get pretty good cardiovascular health, uh, including blood pressure management, with strength training. So if I had to choose one, it's an unrealistic scenario anyways based on how easy it is to, to do VO2 max.
- CWChris Williamson
You're gonna do both.
- BGBen Greenfield
You do both. And then the last one that I would name as like a free intervention, uh, if we're not going to talk about like Harvard's longest running study on longevity on, you know, happiness, relationships, love, all of that.
- CWChris Williamson
Have a friend.
- BGBen Greenfield
Boring, esoteric stuff aside-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- BGBen Greenfield
... I would do walking speed. Um, yes, 7,000 to 8,000 steps a day is advisable, but the actual speed of walking, the, the, the pace, like the, the actual cadence of the walking is important. So VO2 max, grip strength, and walking speed would be the, would be the three that I would choose.
- CWChris Williamson
What, what is, what's the specifics around walking speed?
- BGBen Greenfield
Uh, I don't remember the actual like pace based on, uh, what, whatever you would measure it in, like RT or whatever.
- CWChris Williamson
Quicker than you might think maybe?
- SPSpeaker
It's like six seconds per, uh, two minutes. Uh-
- BGBen Greenfield
The way I think about it is like walk slightly faster than what your brain wants to do. There, there was, and I don't know if it's still available, a device called a Counterpace, like a heart rate strap that you could wear that tied to EarPods that Tracks your heart rate and then helps you maintain a cadence that matches that heart rate so that your foot strike is occurring during the diastolic phase of the heart pumping-
- 1:44:44 – 1:49:32
Is Proteinmaxxing Overhyped?
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah.
- BBBrigham Buhler
What do you make about the criticism ... So, uh, Dr. Daniel Lieberman, who came on the show and I asked him about what's he think the current recommendations coming out of, I guess, our side of the world around one gram per pound, one gram per kilo, per kilo to one gram per pound of body weight for protein. And he just sort of looked at me, was like
- CWChris Williamson
I think it's overblown. I don't think that people need that much. Uh, it doesn't really seem to make that much sense to me from a longevity standpoint. It doesn't seem to be that much evidence. I've looked at every, every big diet on the planet. Um-
- SPSpeaker
That's interesting you wasn't invited to the-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... protein working group, which was all the 100 finest scientists, protein scientists, and they disagreed on some things and they agreed on others. I don't know this gentleman, so it's not a knock to him. But in this room, these were the finest protein researchers from all over.
- CWChris Williamson
Would that not mean that they're kind of biased?
- SPSpeaker
No, they don't all get along.
- CWChris Williamson
If you're gonna be a protein nerd.
- SPSpeaker
They all-
- CWChris Williamson
So some of them are low protein researchers.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. So th- Well, yes, they are all the protein experts. Some agree on, uh, 1.1, so I mean, they're all over the place. So what they do is they present the evidence to the best of the- their ability, the all the evidence that have been done. Um, and what they came up with is that there is no evidence that going below the minimum requirement has benefit at all. In randomized-
- BGBen Greenfield
So go- going below, like-
- SPSpeaker
... 0.8 grams
- BGBen Greenfield
... 0.55 grams per pound?
- SPSpeaker
They argued is it, could you go from o- is 1.1 better than 1.4? Potentially is anything better than 1.6 grams? No, no one agreed that. So that's not one gram per pound.
- BGBen Greenfield
What, what about protein cycling, though? Like, like, like the idea from like an autophagy-
- SPSpeaker
They talked about that
- BGBen Greenfield
... standpoint of like a fasting mimicking diet on a quarterly basis-
- SPSpeaker
Yes. Yes
- BGBen Greenfield
... or a period of protein restriction to simulate-
- SPSpeaker
So they covered that
- BGBen Greenfield
... or stimulate autophagy-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- BGBen Greenfield
... and then most of the time you're actually eating, whatever, the 0.8 to 1.2 grams per pound.
- SPSpeaker
Yes. So to be clear, I was not invited there as a guest researcher, but I was there interviewing these guys. And one of the things that was interesting is that in terms of human trials, it seems as though the sweet spot for aging and optimal health, define that as you will, is closer to 1.2 to 1.6 grams per KG. So it's not one gram per pound, which is what I recommend. It's slightly below that. Um, and what you're talking about is this idea of protein cycling. So the body turns over 250 to 300 grams of protein a day. As we age, we become less efficient at that, liver turnover, all of this stuff. As we age, if we then begin to restrict protein, this is not moving in a positive direction.
- BGBen Greenfield
Right.
- SPSpeaker
And all the aging, there's no aging data in humans that would suggest that that would be beneficial.
- BGBen Greenfield
Mm-hmm. Is his argument that we're over-consuming protein?
- SPSpeaker
We are not over... The data doesn't support that.
- 1:49:32 – 1:58:24
Is Fibre the Next Big Health Trend?
- SPSpeaker
by the way.
- CWChris Williamson
What about fiber?
- BGBen Greenfield
There you go.
- CWChris Williamson
Because I, I'm, I've been pretty good at sort of licking my finger, putting it in the air, and working out what way the wind's blowing. I think the protein thing everyone could see a little while ago.
- BGBen Greenfield
Or a budget consult.
- SPSpeaker
Finally.
- CWChris Williamson
Creatine, I was early on creatine. I was early on, uh, water quality. I think air quality, stuff like, uh, Jasper and mold, I think that's gonna be a huge thing.
- SPSpeaker
Love Jasper, yep.
- CWChris Williamson
Next after that I think is gonna be light, light quality and light pollution-
- SPSpeaker
I agree
- CWChris Williamson
... I think. And it's slowly sort of trickling through the echelons of, of, of health. Fiber to me seems to be just about sort of taking that it's at the hockey stick moment here.
- BGBen Greenfield
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And I get the sense that protein and fiber are gonna be a little antagonistic to each other-
- SPSpeaker
I agree
- CWChris Williamson
... when it comes to designing a diet. So I'm interested-
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... in what you guys think-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... when it comes to fiber, optimizing gut health. Everyone gives a fuck about bloating and-
- SPSpeaker
Yep
- CWChris Williamson
... digestion and leaky gut.
- BGBen Greenfield
That's, that's exactly it, is I, I, I don't think that, that, uh, high protein intake necessarily rules out fiber, but what you were just saying is the one thing that flies under the radar. Yes, uh, fiber, um, is, is beneficial for everything from glycemic variability to bowel movements to, uh, the, the microbiome and the fact that it's, it's often a food for, uh, probiotics leading to postbiotic production. The issue is the large number of the population that has issues like small intestine bacterial overgrowth or diverticulitis or some form of, of, of IBS or an issue that results in them hearing that the giant-ass kale salads are a really good idea and that should, they should put a bunch of spinach in their smoothies and it just totally S them over and they're painting the back of the toilet seat. So I, I think that it depends again on like what the gut biome looks like and what someone's, especially like, like the gas production by s- specific bacteria in the gut looks like before you decide what kind of fiber someone should be on, or the fermentable nature of that fiber. Like inulin and chicory root and shit, like that completely screws some people over as far as gas and bloating.
- CWChris Williamson
It's, it, it feels like-
- BGBen Greenfield
And then for other people it's great gut food
- CWChris Williamson
... it feels like fiber is much more-
- BGBen Greenfield
... uh, individually variable. Like you could probably look at most people and say, "Yeah, if you had like one gram per kilo of body weight of protein, like you'd probably be all right." Whereas, yeah, if you threw-
- BBBrigham Buhler
Yeah
- BGBen Greenfield
... a bunch of oxalates at one person from spinach that's not been cooked-
- BBBrigham Buhler
Right
- BGBen Greenfield
... they're gonna have a very different response to somebody else who doesn't have that kind of gut microflora.
- 1:58:24 – 2:06:17
Inside Ben’s Longevity Diet
- CWChris Williamson
Where have you come into land now, Ben? Obviously, you've experimented.
- BGBen Greenfield
Um, I'm, I'm pretty close to a paleo diet with a lot of fermented vegetables. That, like, I, like most of my carbohydrates are, like, underground storage, uh, organs, like sweet potato, yam, purple potato, berries, and honey. Uh, most of my vegetables are kimchi, sauerkraut, um, and then a lot of hunted wild game meat. Uh, super clean fish that is farmed, not wild caught, so I know the exact sourcing and, and that it's clean, what it's been fed. Um, steak, chicken, poultry are, um, um, pastured pork. And then I do, like, my dessert is typically, uh, coconut yogurt. Like, I go through that, uh, what, what is it called? Cocojune?
- SPSpeaker
So good.
- BGBen Greenfield
Oh my gosh.
- CWChris Williamson
That's the brand?
- BGBen Greenfield
Cocojune.
- SPSpeaker
Oh, it's so good.
- BGBen Greenfield
Cocojune, blueberries-
- SPSpeaker
So good
- BGBen Greenfield
... dark chocolate is not only my dessert, but I've eaten twice today, and that was my meal, was just Cocojune, blueberries, dark chocolate.
- CWChris Williamson
I haven't had it.
- BGBen Greenfield
Uh, and then, and then a little bit of nuts.
- CWChris Williamson
I gotta try it.
- BGBen Greenfield
Like macadamia nuts, Brazil nuts, and, uh, that's pretty much it.
- CWChris Williamson
Where are you getting-
- BGBen Greenfield
Besides all the peptides
- CWChris Williamson
... where are you getting your fish from?
- BGBen Greenfield
A company called SeaTopia. They've got, like, 30-
- SPSpeaker
Ooh
- BGBen Greenfield
... plus different farms around the world, and they very tightly control what the fish is fed. They are tested for things like microplastics, uh, parasites, and then they flash freeze and ship to your house, and they've got a pretty good varietal, just like Ora King salmon and halibut, uh, some shellfish, scallops, uh, and it's the cleanest stuff I could find.
- CWChris Williamson
What was that steak company that you-
- BGBen Greenfield
And I hope they got a check in the mail now to me
- CWChris Williamson
... get, give me the steaks?
- BGBen Greenfield
Uh, the, the steak place-
- CWChris Williamson
'Cause that was insane
- BGBen Greenfield
... okay, so it's this crazy breed of cattle-
- SPSpeaker
Piedmontese
- BGBen Greenfield
... that originates-
- CWChris Williamson
Yes
- BGBen Greenfield
... from the Middle East.
- 2:06:17 – 2:07:31
How Eating Speed Impacts GLP-1 Release
- CWChris Williamson
Did you see that study that came out recently looking at people eat- people's eating speed and the GLP-1, endogenous GLP-1 release? Did you see this?
- SPSpeaker
So-
- CWChris Williamson
Can you explain it?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. So the body releases GLP-1 naturally. Typically, it rides... And I didn't see this study particularly, but it rides with protein. So once you get a protein bolus, it should release GLP-1. It should be very short-lived, and you should be done. Protein increases satiety through this mechanism. Also, I s- I believe that there's some fat. But the faster you eat, the faster it gets there.
- BGBen Greenfield
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
I'm assuming that the GLP-1 would have less of an impact.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, so grazing more slowly meant that you got a higher release of GLP-1, which meant that you were more satisfied more quickly.
- SPSpeaker
Satisfied more.
- BGBen Greenfield
Right.
- SPSpeaker
But the question is how long does that-
- CWChris Williamson
And a more stabilized glycemic index.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
How long does that last? That-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... would not be comparable to a long half-life of a GLP-1-
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... period.
- BGBen Greenfield
I, I mean, all-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- BGBen Greenfield
... all, all, all I know is that, that, that if you look at digestive enzyme production and you, you look at like vasoconstriction, lack of blood flow to the gut, slowed gastric emptying, like it is better for you to not suck down your superfood smoothie while you're driving 60 miles, uh, an hour down the-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- BGBen Greenfield
... highway on your way to work, and I'd rather just see someone fast or wait until they can actually be in a parasympathetic state
- 2:07:31 – 2:10:28
Does Fasting Actually Work?
- BGBen Greenfield
to eat.
- CWChris Williamson
What's the current data around fasting? Because it seems to have f- been bunked and re-bunked so many times. Autophagy, maybe it does work, maybe it doesn't work.
- BGBen Greenfield
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, it... Is it just calorie restriction? Is it an easier route to calorie restriction?
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Is there something super special about-
- BGBen Greenfield
It's, um-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... 16/8 or?
- BGBen Greenfield
So, so the, the basic idea is that when you, when you go head-to-head something like an intermittent fasting study with a overall calorie restriction, there is no big winner. There's nothing magic about fasting that beats out just like shoving fewer calories into your gaping maw. The, the advantage is that with a compressed feeding window, it becomes more difficult to eat excess calories, and that's mostly the case until you get past about the 18-hour mark of fasting. Past the 18-hour mark, that's when you start to see cellular autophagy and a lot of these longevity mechanisms kick in that could make the case for an occasional longer fast.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- BGBen Greenfield
Obviously, like activity level and what kind of anabolic phase of life that you're in, et cetera, would dictate that, but my recommendation to most men is like a 12 to 16-hour overnight intermittent fast, and every once in a while go longer than 18 hours, like a 24-hour dinner time to dinner time fast, like once a month, for example. And then back to that protein cycling, protein restriction thing, something like a quarterly fasting mimicking diet, right? Where you- where you're slightly underfeeding protein, slightly underfeeding calories, but it's just for a few days to simulate, uh, like a, a famine-
- SPSpeaker
A few hours
- BGBen Greenfield
... type of scenario.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
But-
- BGBen Greenfield
And then for, the reason I said for men is for premenopausal women, regularly fasting for longer than 12 hours may have an impact on kisspeptin, which is upstream of LH and FSH, which are fertility related hormones. And so women closer to the 12-hour mark, guys closer to 12 to 16 hours. Uh, post-menopausal women would be closer to the 12 to 16-hour mark. Uh, but that's, that's basically the way that I do fasting is 12 to 16 hours intermittent fast daily, quarterly fasting mimicking diet about once a month, 24 hour dinner to dinner.
- CWChris Williamson
So you're saying there is something special in the autophagy, in the cell clearance, intermittent versus-
- BGBen Greenfield
Well, yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... grazing and just restriction.
- BGBen Greenfield
Uh, o- once you get past 18 hours, but f- in most cases, the definition of intermittent fasting is not these like long one to three-day fasts.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- BGBen Greenfield
Intermittent fasting is typically like a daily compressed feeding window, and usually it tops out at around 16 hours, so.
- CWChris Williamson
But you think there is some special sauce in a 24-hour fast potentially?
- BGBen Greenfield
There is occasionally. You just have to balance like the anabolic, catabolic scenario with that.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, there's other ways to do it.
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
You know, through training there's-
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah, exactly
- 2:10:28 – 2:20:54
Which Longevity Tools Are a Waste of Money?
- CWChris Williamson
What, talking about longevity tests, you know, we're looking at the things that people should be paying attention to. Where do you think people are wasting money or effort or time the most, either on diagnostic or sort of, uh, intervention side things for health more generally? Like, is there a particular type of test that's widely regarded that people think is bullshit? Uh, what do you reckon?
- BGBen Greenfield
Hmm.
- SPSpeaker
I mean, there's, there's ones that, like, we even do, but it, it just gives you more knowledge, like the MTFHR, but you can do that through process of analysis, uh, of elimination, like you had said, like cutting, adapting which supplements you take, and using methylated supplements. There's... Is it a necessity? No.
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
If you, you could just do that through process of elimination and save money.
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah. I think, um, and, and this might be a little bit of a contrarian stance, but I think there is a great deal of emphasis placed right now on cardiovascular risk potential based on either a cardiovascular risk score, right? Do you have high blood pressure, smoking history, family history of cardiovascular disease, et cetera, and what does your lipid panel look like, right? Not, not just, like, the basic stuff like LDL, HCL, triglycerides, LP little A, Apple B. The issue is that that can be a clue, but definitely not a telltale sign of actual plaque deposition in the heart. And, uh, I am increasingly convinced after seeing so many people come back from their CCTAs, like an angiography of the heart, like a CT scan-
- SPSpeaker
A Cleerly
- BGBen Greenfield
... usually with AI di- based diagnostic imaging Cleerly-
- SPSpeaker
Which was in both hard and soft
- BGBen Greenfield
... to actually show, yes, where hard, more stable hard plaque, which you would typically see in more of, like, an athletic population who scarred up their heart a little bit, or unstable, more likely to break loose plaque resulting in a stroke or a heart attack lies, right? So the AI-based diagnostic imaging can tell you that, and the reason that's important is because in many cases, people, including myself, have a pretty good lipid panel, right? LDL, HCL, triglycerides, yada, yada, yada, but then you do the CT angiography and you actually see plaque deposition that if not monitored and addressed, either, you know, allopathically with, like, a, like, low-dose statin or a PCSK9 inhibitor or some of the strategies that are used-
- CWChris Williamson
Repatha, something similar
- BGBen Greenfield
... exactly, or, um, more non-traditionally, right, with, with, uh, enzymes like lumbrokinase, nattokinase. Um, there's a new cyclodextrin that's, that's, that's being in trial right now, um, to actually break down the plaque. You actually could be at risk and not even know it, or you could alternatively, like, be on a statin or Repatha or whatever else due to high cholesterol-
- SPSpeaker
And not need it
- BGBen Greenfield
... and not even need it-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- BGBen Greenfield
... because you don't have any plaque deposition.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- BGBen Greenfield
So the idea of, like, imaging for the heart, you know, indirect answer to your question is, like, I think myopically focusing on a lipid panel is either, A, causing people to be prescribed a medication that they might not need, or B, telling them they're okay when in fact there can be significant plaque at play. So-
- CWChris Williamson
So you're saying rather than obsessing over lipid panel, you would just go and get a Cleerly scan done?
- BGBen Greenfield
I, I think anybody who has a history of heart exercise, anybody who has a family history of cardiovascular disease... I'm not a doctor, by the way. Don't take this as medical advice. Uh, sh- uh, I think even, like, perimenopause, uh, you know, that the risk goes up significantly-
- SPSpeaker
We always get what you're saying
- BGBen Greenfield
... should get a, a, a-
- SPSpeaker
I agree with
- BGBen Greenfield
... a CT angiography.
- SPSpeaker
So traditionally, which is really interesting, after men leave the pediatrician, there's no need for them to go to the doctor. For example, women go to OBGYN, you know, they get a gynecological exam. But men, they leave the, "Why would you have to go to the doctor?" They don't really have a reason, which is a mistake. So getting a baseline testosterone, baseline cardiovascular testing is great, like your boy's age now. But then not necessarily treating with medication. Having a baseline exam by 40, P- I- we recommend that you have a baseline heart scan, both hard and soft plaque. 'Cause-
- CWChris Williamson
What would be the gold standard for that?
- SPSpeaker
A Cleerly.
- CWChris Williamson
A Cleerly scan.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- BGBen Greenfield
Yeah. Cleerly is gonna show you, like, the cubic millimeters of actual plaque deposition.
Episode duration: 2:50:37
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Transcript of episode 8MxG6tOkdNY
