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Controlling The World's Social Media | Dominic McGregor

Dominic McGregor is the COO and Co-Founder of Social Chain, the UK's largest Social Media Agency. I visited him in his Manchester office to talk about how he started Social Chain and grew it to have a 400 million person online reach, his thoughts on the ethical impacts of social media on individuals and society as a whole, and how he dealt with alcohol dependancy whilst running Social Chain - to now be 20 months sober as he prepares to take on one distance-run every month in 2018. Follow Dom online - www.teetotalrunner.com - Listen to all episodes online. Search "Modern Wisdom" on any Podcast App or click here: iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/modern-wisdom/id1347973549 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0XrOqvxlqQI6bmdYHuIVnr?si=iUpczE97SJqe1kNdYBipnw Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/modern-wisdom - I want to hear from you!! Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Email: modernwisdompodcast@gmail.com

Chris WilliamsonhostDominic McGregorguest
May 29, 20181h 4mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:30

    Intro

    1. CW

      (wind blowing) So Dominic McGregor, welcome to Modern Wisdom. How are you?

    2. DM

      Good, thank you. How are you?

    3. CW

      Very good, thank you.

    4. DM

      Good drive?

    5. CW

      Yeah, yeah (laughs) , good drive down from Newcastle to Manchester in the rain. Just typical British weather.

    6. DM

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      Um, so, (sighs) it's c- it's crazy to come into this office, which is several thousand square feet and looks like a labyrinth, um, with sleeping pods and a bar and a fully functioning kitchen-

    8. DM

      Yeah.

    9. CW

      ... with a chef in, and all the rest of it. And this is where memes are made-

    10. DM

      (laughs)

    11. CW

      ... that, that run around the UK, right?

    12. DM

      It's, it's the meme factory, yeah. We, uh, I don't, I don't, I didn't like that title, um, but-

    13. CW

      I saw in that article, like-

    14. DM

      (laughs) .

    15. CW

      Was it on the, was it on The Guardian?

    16. DM

      It was The Guardian, yeah. Um, and it just called us the meme factory, which we are. You know, we, uh, we make a lot of, a lot of content here. But, um, yeah, a little bit about us. So we started, um, in the room next door with, like, a white table. It's like the same one that we're on here.

    17. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    18. DM

      There was, the only thing is there was four of them, one for every single person. And we were sat, and I think these are, like, very similar to the white tables we had.

    19. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    20. DM

      We, we got them as a li- little bit of a memory. Um, and we, um, were working in the room, starting Social Chain, which is a marketing agency.

    21. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    22. DM

      And it took us, you know, three or four months to really find out that we were actually in, on to something. And what was different between us and any other marketing agency, is we own big communities.

    23. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    24. DM

      So we own big social media pages from Student Problems, SPARF, Love Food, uh, BFIT Motivation, uh, and we went and worked with brands on them communities.

    25. CW

      So I'm right in saying that you guys have got access to about 400 million people, is that right?

    26. DM

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    27. CW

      The total combined reach-

    28. DM

      Across Facebook and-

    29. CW

      ... is about 400 million people?

    30. DM

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. Across the world.

  2. 2:30 – 5:00

    Student Problems

    1. CW

      prevalently.

    2. DM

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think, I think the reason we, we fell upon it is that, um, we, we had influence I guess, but our influences wasn't our faces.

    3. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    4. DM

      So we had to f- we had to fight to kind of-

    5. CW

      What was the first page that you started off with?

    6. DM

      Student Problems.

    7. CW

      Was it really?

    8. DM

      Yeah, yeah.

    9. CW

      And who started that?

    10. DM

      Me.

    11. CW

      You started-

    12. DM

      Yeah, yeah.

    13. CW

      ... Student Problems?

    14. DM

      Yeah.

    15. CW

      No way.

    16. DM

      So I was, I was at university in Edinburgh.

    17. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    18. DM

      Um, and I went out one night. I don't know why. I honestly, it was like a really heavy night. It was like half-past five. Actually, do you know what? I think it's exactly five years ago today.

    19. CW

      No way.

    20. DM

      I think, I think. I'll double check, but I think it was the 7th of February.

    21. CW

      That's fantastic.

    22. DM

      So I think it is. Um, went out. And woke up the next day, and had no toilet paper in my toilet.

    23. CW

      (laughs)

    24. DM

      So instead of, you know, and literally the, the shop was down the bottom of the s- the street. I coulda walked and bought it. So instead of going and getting it, I decided to start a Twitter page and tweet about my life.

    25. CW

      'Cause you didn't have any toilet paper?

    26. DM

      The fact I had no toilet paper.

    27. CW

      Yeah.

    28. DM

      And then for the next couple of weeks, just tweeting everything that I was doing.

    29. CW

      Uh-huh.

    30. DM

      Literally the, my life through my eyes.

  3. 5:00 – 7:00

    Social Media

    1. DM

      and just, we've just tried to see if this was something, and it was.

    2. CW

      It definitely feels like it is, doesn't it?

    3. DM

      Mm-hmm.

    4. CW

      It's, it's cra- it's absolutely mad that you guys are at the forefront of a wave of s- social media, not in terms of adoption but more in terms of how it's, how the use from marketing is being delivered to people.

    5. DM

      Yeah.

    6. CW

      Um, I think that, that organic, genuinely creative adding value kind of content.

    7. DM

      Yeah, yeah. I think, I think it's, um, meaningful.

    8. CW

      Yes.

    9. DM

      People, people we, us generation, I'm pretty sure everyone's got ad, ad blockers-

    10. CW

      Yeah.

    11. DM

      ... on their laptop, they're, they're sick of telling, being told what to do by brands. Um, you know, our, our whole f- thing is now about how brands can actually form a connection-

    12. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    13. DM

      ... and care about their consumers. And, and we know as people, individuals ourselves, what we purchase now actually depends much more on what the brand says about us-

    14. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    15. DM

      ... rather than anything, rather than quality, rather than, um, cost in some instances.

    16. CW

      We self-brand with everything.

    17. DM

      Exactly, exactly.

    18. CW

      It's interesting coming at it from a club promoter's perspective because everyone goes out to a club event on a night and-... everyone listening will know, you get tagged in the photos-

    19. DM

      Yeah.

    20. CW

      ... and then the next day, the album goes up-

    21. DM

      Yeah.

    22. CW

      ... and then you get tagged in them, and that tag stays on your Facebook profile with a watermark of the event at the bottom.

    23. DM

      Yep.

    24. CW

      And that means, "Oh, I'm a, I'm a Voodoo girl." Like, "I go Voodoo."

    25. DM

      Yep.

    26. CW

      "I like this kind of music."

    27. DM

      Yep.

    28. CW

      And immediately, as soon as someone sees that on your Facebook profile, they can make a whole bunch of assumptions-

    29. DM

      Assumptions.

    30. CW

      ... about who you are and about the values that you have.

  4. 7:00 – 9:00

    Social Chain

    1. DM

      serial killers.

    2. CW

      Really?

    3. DM

      Yeah.

    4. CW

      Because they're just in- interested in-

    5. DM

      They're really interested in, like, crime stuff, aren't they?

    6. CW

      Yeah, my, my ex-missus was actually.

    7. DM

      Yeah, yeah, really, really good at ... 'cause it's their world, trying to find out, they all, they all want to be detectives-

    8. CW

      You reckon?

    9. DM

      ... for some rea- for some reason.

    10. CW

      Fair enough.

    11. DM

      (laughs)

    12. CW

      Um, so you've got yourself into Social Chain?

    13. DM

      Yeah.

    14. CW

      And, is that, where do you, when did you begin the actual, um, brand of Social Chain? When did that start?

    15. DM

      Yeah. So we were at Wall Park for about, Steve was, Steve started it when he was, um, 18, so he was doing it for about three years, I was there for about a year.

    16. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    17. DM

      Um, and then when we sold that back to the investors, we had a bit of time out, where we went traveling the world.

    18. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    19. DM

      Um, we had, there was this kind of talk of Social Chain, we came up with the name pretty early on when we still at Wall Park, but-

    20. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    21. DM

      ... it didn't mean anything.

    22. CW

      Yeah.

    23. DM

      Um, we were like, this is like Social Chain, so there's a chain of pages, you know, this, this is what it is, it's our social chain, it's what's driving people to Wall Park. And then we went to Thailand, uh, went to Brazil, New York, did a, you know, a bit of living.

    24. CW

      Not bad fact-finding, that.

    25. DM

      No, not bad, no, we were, we were doing up our market research. (laughs)

    26. CW

      (laughs)

    27. DM

      21, 20, we did actually spend some time in Silicon Valley doing some consulting-

    28. CW

      Actually did do some work.

    29. DM

      Yeah, we did do some work, yeah.

    30. CW

      (laughs)

  5. 9:00 – 11:00

    Top 3 Favorite Campaigns

    1. CW

      to now, accessing 400 million people, um, can you think of a top three favorite campaigns that you guys have done?

    2. DM

      Hmm.

    3. CW

      Anything that springs to mind that people might not...

    4. DM

      Yeah. We did, um, the one, the one most people know is we did a campaign, um, where we hijacked a billboard in Manchester and put Welcome to Zlatan when Zlatan Ibrahimović signed for Man United.

    5. CW

      Yeah.

    6. DM

      That was pretty well known. Uh, but we've done some really cool things in, um, the stuff I like that we've done is a little bit more underground.

    7. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    8. DM

      So we've done some really cool campaigns with Sky Bet, um, where we filmed two grands doing, taking part in Super 6, which was pretty cool.

    9. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    10. DM

      And it's kind of shown the e- use case of the app. Um, and then I think, you know, go back to the crazy side of things, we blew up a VW Beetle, super dry, on Halloween.

    11. CW

      Right.

    12. DM

      Which was pretty fun.

    13. CW

      Was that on Facebook Live or something?

    14. DM

      Yeah, Facebook Live, yeah, yeah.

    15. CW

      Was that one of the ones where press fire to do it?

    16. DM

      Yeah, yeah, press fire.

    17. CW

      Okay.

    18. DM

      Yeah. Did you see it?

    19. CW

      Um, I saw, I th- did you guys do the one, was it Pretty Little Thing?

    20. DM

      Yep.

    21. CW

      Yeah. Which was like a, was that maybe a balloon?

    22. DM

      Yeah, yeah, we did a balloon. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    23. CW

      Um-

    24. DM

      Yeah, yeah.

    25. CW

      ... so I've seen, I saw the one for that.

    26. DM

      Yeah, we blew, we've blown a couple of things up.

    27. CW

      And that's like one of the most highly engaged-

    28. DM

      Engaged live streams, yeah.

    29. CW

      ... ever.

    30. DM

      Yeah, 2.5 million views, about a million comments.

  6. 11:00 – 13:00

    Social Media Principles

    1. DM

      which, when we just blew more things up and did some quizzes. But it's been that, that kind of, like, fast fashion, space, super dry-

    2. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    3. DM

      ... Voodoo, Pretty Little Thing, ￡￡￡ successful.

    4. CW

      So everyone that's listening will use social media to some extent.

    5. DM

      Mm-hmm.

    6. CW

      And a lot of people will use it by, in one form or another, to either raise their profile, which is, uh, brings them some sort of equity back.

    7. DM

      Mm-hmm.

    8. CW

      Um, or, like myself, it becomes kind of a little bit more of a brand and is directly associated with what your company's doing.

    9. DM

      Yep.

    10. CW

      Are there any, are there any principles that you think that you've found out that people should be using on social media? Because it's very easy to get caught up-

    11. DM

      Yeah.

    12. CW

      ... and we'll go into this in a second, it's very easy to get caught up and distracted on social media 'cause that's the purpose of it.

    13. DM

      Yeah.

    14. CW

      But in terms of trying to use it effectively, I mean, I'm gonna guess adding, uh, producing content that adds value, whether it's personally or commercially?

    15. DM

      Yeah. I think, I think, um, what you touched on there in terms of like personal branding.

    16. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    17. DM

      Everyone's really got to understand where social fits into their life. Um, it's like a shop window for who you are as a person, so you really need to, um, if you want to, some people don't want to do this, but if you want to, like, use it to your advantage-

    18. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    19. DM

      ... um, and really like showcase you as an individual or, you know, what you're trying to achieve in your life and your journey, you've got to just think about what you want it to, how you want it to come across.

    20. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    21. DM

      And I think, uh, some people are on the other side of the coin, they just wanna use it to-

    22. CW

      ... in touch with our friends and stuff like that.

    23. DM

      Keeping, keeping friends, yeah.

    24. CW

      But yeah, my, my, my mum does it. She's got one friend on Facebook and it's me.

    25. DM

      Is it? Oh.

    26. CW

      And she, she, like, um, will message backwards and forwards and send videos.

    27. DM

      Yeah.

    28. CW

      And the usage of it'll be really heavy-

    29. DM

      But it's-

    30. CW

      ... but incredibly narrow. (laughs)

  7. 13:00 – 15:00

    Social Media Ethics

    1. DM

      like, like we'll go into it more, but what, what, what, what we've been both been through, we're a little bit older.

    2. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    3. DM

      It's very difficult for 17, 16-year-olds to really understand-

    4. CW

      To have that perspective?

    5. DM

      Yeah. Yes.

    6. CW

      No, I, I, I agree. Um, so I think one of the things that I wanna talk about today is the ethical use of time on social media.

    7. DM

      Mm-hmm.

    8. CW

      Um, it's, as far as I'm concerned, an emerging topic at the moment.

    9. DM

      Yep.

    10. CW

      I wouldn't say that it's been tremendously widespread yet. Um, but Sam Harris and a guy called Tristan Harris who was product philosopher at Google did a really famous podcast about three months ago. You can find it on Sam Harris's podcast, Waking Up, on iTunes, if you wanna have a listen yourself, and timewellspent.com is Tristan Harris's website. And on that, what he discusses is the cognitive biases that are being leveraged by apps and-

    11. DM

      Mm-hmm.

    12. CW

      ... by, um, developers in order to keep people's time on site.

    13. DM

      Mm-hmm.

    14. CW

      And they say that there's only so many hours in the day and that YouTube is competing with Facebook, is competing with Netflix, is competing with everything-

    15. DM

      Mm-hmm.

    16. CW

      ... to try and maximize the time on site. So, I wanted to ask yourself, as someone who is driving engaging content online, which means that people's time on site and time on screen will be increased, do you... have you got any concerns about this?

    17. DM

      Yeah, I think taking a step back also is we are, um, very, as, is it humans or animals? So we are very influenced by, like, social and you can see it on games like Candy Crush, the way they reward the kind of dopamine levels with their hits and their, like, re- you know. All that is designed towards keeping people addicted. Um, I am under the strong belief that, um, from two sides of the coin really. As a publisher, people always consume content. It's always been the same. We've had the same issues with, with TV to an extent. Not more of the, um, addiction side of things but with the kind

  8. 15:00 – 17:00

    Social Media Addiction

    1. DM

      of, um... I guess you have got small population with TV, you know, you do find people who are very sedimentary because they're always on watching TV.

    2. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    3. DM

      Um, but I think with what is the important thing about social is, um, it's the age of people again. The younger generation, these people are a lot more highly influenced. They're not as developed, they're not as, um, assured of themselves let alone th- their surroundings. So yes, I do feel kind of, um, responsible in that instance and I think more can be done to educate young people. But again, it's very difficult because they're in... they're young.

    4. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    5. DM

      They've got a lot of things on the plate already.

    6. CW

      It's interesting because you guys have got, you've got the access.

    7. DM

      Yeah.

    8. CW

      Which is, from knowing what the company is about, I'd definitely say that everybody here, as far as I'm aware, in the company culture is an altruistic one.

    9. DM

      Mm-hmm.

    10. CW

      Now, if that, um, sense of genuinely caring about people's wellbeing is to the contrary of what advertisers want, I guess therein may lie a little bit more of a difficulty. But certainly for me, it doesn't feel like coming into... the guys who make global trends and social media's office, it doesn't feel like I'm stepping into some underworld cabal-

    11. DM

      Yeah. Yeah.

    12. CW

      ... of like people trying to desperately claw at young kids' time-

    13. DM

      Yeah.

    14. CW

      ... and make them feel incredibly self-conscious online and, like, desperate for likes and things like that. There's definitely an argument to be made I think that, you know, Student Problems was born of a genuine care or a genuine interest in the topic.

    15. DM

      Mm-hmm.

    16. CW

      Could you argue now that that's been monetized and is being used as a commercial vehicle? But the argument is that you're still making content that's even better and is still providing the same, the same end result for users.

    17. DM

      Yeah.

    18. CW

      Do you know what I mean?

    19. DM

      Completely. And I think, um, with that comes massive responsibilities on the other side for us to be able to educate people. So we've recently done a, um, documentary around mental health on Student Problems where we've been... gone

  9. 17:00 – 19:00

    Suicide

    1. DM

      to Bristol University-

    2. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    3. DM

      ... where last year there was eight suicides.

    4. CW

      Wow.

    5. DM

      Like an ap-... yeah, like, a very high number of suicides.

    6. CW

      It's the number one, number one killer of men under 40.

    7. DM

      Yep. It's-

    8. CW

      Which is an, an absolutely terrifying topic.

    9. DM

      Yep.

    10. CW

      But yeah.

    11. DM

      So, and you go to university, it's meant to be the best four years of your life and, you know, a lot of people, a lot of, you know, students are wanting to commit suicide. So we, we have a responsibility from that side of the fence to, yes, provide content which is entertaining and relevant but also to act as the voice of that generation, where we educate them on life, on the topics that they really need to know about as well.

    12. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    13. DM

      So, um, yeah, we feel like we've... I've, I've started to feel that responsibility a lot more. Um-

    14. CW

      I think the, the fact is that it's emerging, right?

    15. DM

      Yeah.

    16. CW

      You don't know... it's like when a new drug comes out onto the market, we don't know the side effects of it until it's been in circulation for a while.

    17. DM

      Sure, yep.

    18. CW

      And the same thing with social media that we only realized what it was and we st- it's still emerging is what actually social media is and how all of the different platforms work, before you then move on to tech addictions.

    19. DM

      Yeah.

    20. CW

      And...

    21. DM

      And everyone's different though as well, everyone has a different relationship with it.

    22. CW

      Absolutely.

    23. DM

      So it's very difficult to, um, diagnose anyone.

    24. CW

      For sure.

    25. DM

      So it's like-... and I guess if you ask someone what their relationship is, then they're always gonna tell you it's healthy. They're not gonna really, like... Because the thing is, you know, Instagram is a highlight reel. You know, you go on Instagram and you've got all your friends posting about being on holidays, so you get the feeling that you're, um, sat there at work not doing anything, so that, that... Yes, it's social media, but it has a bigger impact on your life than just the actual addiction to the phone or to the, the, you know, that side of things. It has a longer lasting effect, so.

    26. CW

      It's interesting because especially with Instagram, I read this quote online which I thought was really timely, and it basically said that Instagram specifically, you compare the best of everyone else's life with the worst of yours.

    27. DM

      Yeah. Yeah.

    28. CW

      Because you view your own life

  10. 19:00 – 21:00

    How we evolved

    1. CW

      through a lens of, uh, complete understanding of all of your failings.

    2. DM

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      You see, you see the blooper reel and that's what sticks.

    4. DM

      Yep.

    5. CW

      'Cause our minds are Teflon for good thoughts and Velcro for bad thoughts.

    6. DM

      Yep. Yep.

    7. CW

      That's how we evolved.

    8. DM

      Yep.

    9. CW

      The person that, that they, um... Neanderthal, uh, the h- human that was living in a cave that decided that they weren't worried is the one that got eaten first-

    10. DM

      Yeah.

    11. CW

      ... because they were the least risk-averse.

    12. DM

      Yep.

    13. CW

      The ones that are risk-averse were the ones ... So it means that we're hardwired to think about things negatively, and you're right, when you see the best of other people's lives but the worst of yours, it does l- lead with a very, very harsh contrast.

    14. DM

      And it is funny, in, in this space, I think that influencers need to be more accountable because they're creating an unrealistic expectation of life.

    15. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    16. DM

      Which is more detrimental than us posting videos of cheese-

    17. CW

      No. I agree.

    18. DM

      ... on our page. So I think that's, that's where I think a bigger issue lies, is the responsibility of ad- of influencers to, to really, like, you know ... They're the, they're the ones that are damaging it because they're, they're showing an unrealistic lifestyle.

    19. CW

      Well, theirs is more, if you're an influencer, it's a lot more of a surreptitious delivery of the brand message.

    20. DM

      Yep.

    21. CW

      Because it, it comes about irrelevant of whether which brand is tagged in your outfits, or what supplement's at the front of your training session, or who it is that's paid for the video production or the photo to be taken.

    22. DM

      Yep.

    23. CW

      People don't see that. They see, "Look at the condition of this particular guy, look at the arse on this particular girl, look at how exciting the holiday is," or, "She's on a boat again," or ...

    24. DM

      Yeah. And they, and they always all say, um, through their experiences and that they've had hard times when a lot of them probably haven't. They may, I'm maybe doing an injustice but some of them probably have, but they're ... I think working influencers have got quite an easy life.

    25. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    26. DM

      They don't know what stress is, they don't know what strain is, and they, they're painting an unrealistic expectation to young people.

    27. CW

      So there's maybe ... there needs to be a code of ethics that influencers should be thinking about using when they're putting stuff online?

    28. DM

      Yeah. I think, I think so, yeah. I think, um,

  11. 21:00 – 23:00

    Influences

    1. DM

      it would be interesting to see the difference between someone who does follow influencers and someone who doesn't follow any influencers.

    2. CW

      Absolutely.

    3. DM

      And let them judge things like a meal out, or a holiday, or like an outfit. Because if a girl ... I know it's a lot more in the female space because they are the ones that, um ... Not to sound sexist or anything, but they are, uh, more of users of social media for certain types of things.

    4. CW

      I'm gonna guess you're, you're exactly in the position to know what the stats are on that as well.

    5. DM

      Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I don't have them to hand but they're much more avid users and then, uh, if you compared a girl who doesn't follow any influencers versus someone who does follow influencers, and you ask them their 10 favorite brands, you'd probably get very different answers.

    6. CW

      I agree. And then probably satisfaction and, um, like you say, you're going out for a meal.

    7. DM

      Yep.

    8. CW

      And if you've previously in the day seen that someone was at Blue Marlin Dubai-

    9. DM

      Yeah.

    10. CW

      ... one of your favorite influencers at Blue Marlin Dubai having teriyaki salmon and black cod and surrounded by million pound yachts, and then you've gone out f- on Valentine's Day to somewhere that doesn't fulfill that expectation, you're right, it's, um-

    11. DM

      Yeah.

    12. CW

      ... it's not, not a tremendously positive environment at times, is it?

    13. DM

      Yeah. And these are people you will never meet. You'll never meet.

    14. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    15. DM

      And that's th- what they're making you feel. It's ruining relationships, it's ruining friendships, it's ruining everything.

    16. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    17. DM

      It's making such ... This is, this is what I think, anyway.

    18. CW

      So if you've got affiliations with influencers and stuff like that, would you be ... I'm gonna guess the answer's yes to this, but you'd be maybe pushing them to think about, ma- be a little bit more mindful with their content and, and try and-

    19. DM

      Um, I- I f- ... It's difficult because it's, that's their livelihood as well.

    20. CW

      You're right.

    21. DM

      So you've got, you've got a very balan- balancing act. And I think, um, I think it needs to be something that comes organically from the influencer space. They need to realize, someone will need to realize what they're doing. Um-

    22. CW

      That'd be nice, wouldn't it?

    23. DM

      It would be nice.

    24. CW

      Maybe, maybe, maybe that'll happen over the years.

    25. DM

      Maybe. Maybe.

    26. CW

      So moving on to another topic that both of us are really passionate about.

  12. 23:00 – 25:00

    Problem with Substances

    1. CW

    2. DM

      (clears throat)

    3. CW

      Um, I want to talk about your problem with substances that you've had over the years.

    4. DM

      Yep.

    5. CW

      Could you give us a bit of background on that please?

    6. DM

      Yeah. It's always a fun story to remember. (laughs)

    7. CW

      (laughs)

    8. DM

      Um, yeah. I, I guess, I guess my life started like, same as anyone elses. You know, you go to university, you spend three nights a week drunk, it's life. Um-

    9. CW

      Edinburgh's a good night, aren't they? Why, why, why not to really, really-

    10. DM

      It's really a good night. Why Not Monday. That was my mon-

    11. CW

      (laughs)

    12. DM

      I used to finish football training at 10:00 and go straight to Why Not.

    13. CW

      Shout out Jay Glass.

    14. DM

      (laughs) And, um, the Mack twins.

    15. CW

      Yep.

    16. DM

      Yeah.

    17. CW

      Never mind.

    18. DM

      They'll, they'll be watching.

    19. CW

      They're still, they're still doing it, still killing it. Like, uh, Why Not. If anyone's going to Edinburgh, Why Not Nightclub. What, eight years in a row I think it's won like Best Pub in Edinburgh.

    20. DM

      Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

    21. CW

      It kills it.

    22. DM

      Monday nights.

    23. CW

      It's the one.

    24. DM

      It's got, um, they were telling me it's a complete redesign.

    25. CW

      Yeah. It's got an LED, th- room two's LED-

    26. DM

      Yeah.

    27. CW

      ... ceiling, LED walls, it's fantastic.

    28. DM

      (laughs)

    29. CW

      (laughs) Anyway, so.

    30. DM

      Um, so yeah, I, I lived a normal life. Um, and I would describe myself, the reason I think Student Problems was successful is because I was just your average student. I was completely straight middle of the line, you know, I've not got a privileged background, I'm not, I'm not from ... I've got a very middle, middle of the road, you know, I can relate.

  13. 25:00 – 27:00

    Cash Flow Issues

    1. DM

      early on- There you are. ... so we all go out as a team, we spend a lot of time together having meals, and it is, uh, generally at first it's celebrating. Mm-hmm. It's, "This is fantastic." Um, you know, flash- flash forward a year to, a year into the business, when you start to hit them first rocky patches. You can't let other people know that there's a issue with cash flow and that, you know, you're looking tight for wages next month. Um, you can't have that on, you've got to put a straight face on here and, you know, business as usual. Um, but behind that kind of good face, I'm, I'm struggling, really struggling. Um, and- So we're '22 now, right? Ish? '22, yeah. Yep. And the celebrations continue, because there's still success, but every single time of these celebrations and partying, I'm drinking to excess. I'm doing drugs because, you know, we've got spending to- You've got the cash. I've got the cash. It's, it's, it's normal. Mm-hmm. Um, but I'm doing it to mask how I feel. I'm doing it to escape. I'm getting away from the, the stresses, the anxieties of what the real, real picture is. And it's almost this, this oxymoron of we are celebrating, everyone, all the staff, all the team, we're celebrating because we've just done something spectacular, but I know deep down that things are not rosy. Mm-hmm. So I'm yay, happy, and then I'm- On the outside? ... on the outside, but- And then kind of allowing the, the substances to carry that through- To carry that. ... and let them play the role? Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, be that person. Um, and that continues for a bit. Uh- How are you, how were you able to function at work? 'Cause it's- It's, it's not bad at this point. Okay. It's not bad. It's, it's no different than what the everyone else would be doing. It's just the nights out, it's the same, it's the same. Mm-hmm. It's... But I'm starting to feel that I'm becoming reliant on that lifestyle. Um, and that's when I, um, um, started to feel something. No, just my whole life would start turning into that kind of thing.

  14. 27:00 – 29:00

    Breaking Up With Girlfriend

    1. DM

      Um, I met... Got a girlfriend who was really bad for me. Really bad for me. She created this picture that social shame was, was wrong and that, you know, me and her were gonna have, live a healthy life and that. It was just a horrible relationship. Mm-hmm. Um, and w- stresses at work get a little... Not the stresses, but the situation I work is a little bit tighter, more responsibility, more people join, the numbers we start talking are bigger. You know, we're talking million pound contracts, we're talking, you know, a couple of legal battles come our way as well. Mm-hmm. Which is, which is, you know, all lads are up to it. Um, and then, you know, I think I, I'm trying to remember how old am I? 24, yeah. So, um, there's a kind of a three-month period where I break up this girl because, and I get rid of her, um, and then the next three months is where it deteriorates for me. Mm-hmm. I, um, I started drinking on weekdays. That's when... And my... I always drank wine, so red wine. So I'd, I'd ha- I'd come home and have a glass of wine, you know. It became my reward for a hard day. I'd have a glass of wine and it got to a point where the minute alcohol passed my lips, it would be a bottle, it'd be two bottles, it wouldn't stop. Yep. And that would be on a weekday. And I'd get up and I'd go... And a couple of things happened that really hit me hard. Um, so it was Thursday night, we went to a neighborhood opening here. Mm-hmm. It was a good night. Yeah. Um, I got absolutely off my head. Um, and it was a Thursday. And I go home and I fall down the hill at my house and break my ankle. And so Wednesday, Wednes- then it's a Friday morning and I'm in hospital, sat, sat there in A&E, shit's going on at work, I'm like, "What the hell am I doing this?" Yep. "What the fuck am I doing this for?" Um, that's, that was like strike one. Strike... And then, like, strike two, um, well, it was my birthday. Right. So I'm 23. Mm-hmm. My birthday, I go out, uh, with everyone, it's great. It's gonna be a heavy one. Heavy one, obviously. Yep. But the day afterwards, which is my actual birthday, that's when I out. I spent my, my 23rd birthday locked in a dark room watching

  15. 29:00 – 31:00

    Dark Room

    1. DM

      a movie. Hating life. Hating life. Everyone was like, "Let's go for a meal, it's your birthday. Come on, let's go." I'm just, "No, I'm gonna stay here." I spent a whole day in a dark room on my birthday. Yep. And I'm thinking about everything, thinking about my life. And that's when I gave up substances. I was like, "Okay, it's drugs. It has to be drugs, you know. I'm... I can't, I can't be like this on weekends. This is ruining my... This is ru-" So I think, "You know, I'll be fine." So I do, I do six month- six weeks without any, any drugs. And then, uh- But still drinking? Still drinking, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then I go to the races and have a great day, honestly, a really good day. I'm a little bit more happy, um, but I come back home at like 6:00 PM, you know, o- off my head. Yep. I'd been invited there by a friend in a sponsor's box, so I've got limited alcohol. All day. All day. (laughs) And it's a nice day, and I've still got the problem where if I, I touch alcohol, I won't stop drinking. I'll always- Yep. I'll always have one in my hand. And, um, I... My behavior that day was, um, I got thrown out of Piccolinos in Old Village for stealing a bottle of wine from someone's table and shouting abuse at people. Wow. It was... It was a, a different person. Yeah. And, um, I said some mean things to, some ha- some bad things to a good friend of mine. Yep. And it was the first time I'd ever hurt somebody else. Yep. And the minute I hurt somebody else, I knew I needed to stop because I'm... That's not me. Yep. I could deal with hurting myself. I was beating myself up- Mm-hmm. ... and that I enjoyed that a little bit because it was punishing myself. A catharsis almost? Yeah. But I couldn't deal with that hurting somebody else.... I would, I would, I only got run over by a car once, you know, a couple of other things, and I really, really jumped when I was drunk. But I could deal with that because it was me.

    2. CW

      It's you.

    3. DM

      It was me. But the minute it moved into me doing damage to someone I cared about, um, I knew I had to stop. And then I woke up that day, had a very, very frank conversation with Steve, who wasn't there that day, but heard about it, and I said that "I'm

  16. 31:00 – 33:00

    How Long

    1. DM

      gonna stop. I'm not gonna drink again."

    2. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    3. DM

      "Never gonna drink again."

    4. CW

      So how long sober are you now?

    5. DM

      Um, 20 months.

    6. CW

      20 months?

    7. DM

      20 months, yeah.

    8. CW

      From that day?

    9. DM

      From that day. Never gone back.

    10. CW

      Cold turkey?

    11. DM

      Cold turkey.

    12. CW

      And what was it like the first couple of weeks?

    13. DM

      It's tough, because you change your life. It's not, it's not because of the alcohol. The first ... I always think this is funny, the first weekend I woke up hungover.

    14. CW

      (laughs)

    15. DM

      I didn't go out ... My body, my body would take, needs to recover is ... So it was, it's the problem with binge drinking, your body gets used to this shock in its system every five days.

    16. CW

      Yup.

    17. DM

      You know, it's, um, it's a functioning organism. It's used to repetitiveness.

    18. CW

      Yeah.

    19. DM

      It, I woke up, I woke up hungover because my body was, it goes dehydrated because it was probably producing more, um, things in the liver, pancreas, to break down the alcohol, and it-

    20. CW

      It wasn't there.

    21. DM

      ... it wasn't there.

    22. CW

      (laughs)

    23. DM

      It's just like, "What? You all right, Dom?"

    24. CW

      "What's going on?"

    25. DM

      "What's going on?"

    26. CW

      "Yeah, we need some wine."

    27. DM

      "Yeah, we need some wine." Um, so that was weird. So the first weekend I felt hungover. So you don't, I didn't feel the benefits. It wasn't until ... And this is my problem with dry, dry January, you don't feel the benefits until like Week 6.

    28. CW

      Yup.

    29. DM

      So it's ... Dry January's great, but the real benefits don't come till afterwards.

    30. CW

      Kick in afterwards. Okay.

  17. 33:00 – 35:00

    The 7Day Cycle

    1. DM

      honestly, it used to feel like it was getting ready-

    2. CW

      On a seven-day cycle. (laughs)

    3. DM

      It is, getting ready for alcohol to be in it. So I'd get this, like, natural high come Friday, like 3:00, where I'd get energy and-

    4. CW

      'Cause it knows that it's got the wine coming, yeah.

    5. DM

      It knows, yeah, it knows it's got everything coming for it.

    6. CW

      Yeah.

    7. DM

      So 3:00, I'd be like, "Yeah, come on," you know, "Feeling it."

    8. CW

      Yeah.

    9. DM

      Just kind of like ... And, 'cause my mind knows I'm away f- on, on the end of the week, I'm away from the stress, I can, I don't have to reply to e- emails or something for a couple of days.

    10. CW

      Yup.

    11. DM

      So my body gets excited. So that's Friday, yeah? That's Friday, like, 3:00, so your mind's out of work, your mind's already somewhere else. You've got, you've got a Friday, Saturday written off, you can't do ... during the day.

    12. CW

      Yeah.

    13. DM

      You've got a Saturday. So for Sunday, you're recovering from sun- you're recovering from Saturday and, um-

    14. CW

      Friday.

    15. DM

      ... Friday. And then, do you know what? I was seeing this girl, and do you know what we did, we invented? Tequila Sundays.

    16. CW

      Fantastic.

    17. DM

      Fantastic. So we had a couple of tequila Sundays.

    18. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    19. DM

      So you get up-

    20. CW

      And that'll fix the hangover-

    21. DM

      And that'll fix-

    22. CW

      ... or at least taper it off a little bit.

    23. DM

      Exactly. So we had a couple of drinks on the night together.

    24. CW

      Yeah.

    25. DM

      And that, then it's Monday. Monday, you're recovering.

    26. CW

      Monday's tough, so you gotta have a glass of wine at the end of the day-

    27. DM

      Exactly.

    28. CW

      ... 'cause you got through a day hungover.

    29. DM

      Exactly. And then, you know, maybe, maybe not Tuesday or Wednesday because you're a little bit fresher.

    30. CW

      (laughs)

  18. 35:00 – 37:00

    The Bad Food

    1. CW

      you're on a night out, what's getting a bag of drugs in?

    2. DM

      Yup.

    3. CW

      What's getting this, what's getting that, and do you know what I mean? And then who says no to the afterparty at your house? Who says no to telling your friends something that's hurtful, or doing whatever? The inhibitions just continue to get broken down.

    4. DM

      And then a, and then you also go into the s- the bad food.

    5. CW

      Yup.

    6. DM

      And that's a whole nother kettle of fish.

    7. CW

      Yeah.

    8. DM

      Because you just, then you just f- you look at, you, what you put, you know, and, and one of the guys said it here, is your brain cells are made of every single thing that you put into your mouth.

    9. CW

      Yeah. Yeah, that's really true. (laughs)

    10. DM

      Your brain cell, yeah. The first time you've heard that?

    11. CW

      Yeah. (laughs) That's really true.

    12. DM

      That's gonna change your mind on things. But I'm like, "Okay, everything that goes into my mouth makes my brain. Okay." And then you look at-

    13. CW

      What's my brain built on?

    14. DM

      My brain-

    15. CW

      Domino, Dominoes and tequila.

    16. DM

      Dominoes and tequila. Oh, God.

    17. CW

      Yeah.

    18. DM

      That's gonna be-

    19. CW

      What sort of, what sort of life's that going to be? I think it's really interesting, man. It's r- it's very, very, uh, insightful to hear from someone, 'cause you hear these stories of, like, child prodigies and, you know-

    20. DM

      Yeah.

    21. CW

      ... Macaulay Culkin-esque characters-

    22. DM

      (laughs)

    23. CW

      ... that have got too much too soon.

    24. DM

      Yup.

    25. CW

      Uh, but it's very interesting to hear it firsthand from somebody who definitely did have that.

    26. DM

      Yup.

    27. CW

      And I think that alcoholism is usually perceived by people to be ... Or a problem with alcohol is usually perceived by people to be a mid-50s guy with a bottle of Scotch whiskey-

    28. DM

      Yeah.

    29. CW

      ... laid on his couch-

    30. DM

      Yup.

  19. 37:00 – 39:00

    The Ultimate Pain

    1. CW

      the person you are meets the person you could've been.

    2. DM

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      And that that's the difference in pain of what you feel.

    4. DM

      Yep.

    5. CW

      Like, if you set your goals very, very high, and then you start to bring yourself down and your performance suffers, performance at work, performance in relationships, performance with everything. If you do that to yourself, you're electing to make yourself slower.

    6. DM

      Yep.

    7. CW

      And one of the mad things, I always use this example, especially about people that use, like, that use really, really heavy drugs, so if you talk about pills or MDMA, they kind of wash a sequence o- o- a night's experience with the same flavor. So you hear guys will go out and they'll go on a stag do and they go Vegas. They travel halfway around the world to go to Vegas and they get absolutely blitzed, out of their mind, can't remember half the night, and then they'll take a drug that is so immersive that they literally could've gone down the road to the pub-

    8. DM

      Yep.

    9. CW

      ... and had the same experience.

    10. DM

      Yep.

    11. CW

      The only difference that you choose when you go away on holiday and you decide to fill yourself full of alcohol and drugs, is, "What environment do I want to have my comedown and hangover in?"

    12. DM

      Yep.

    13. CW

      That's the only thing that you're changing.

    14. DM

      Yep. Completely. Completely. And you know what? I had the perfect comedown environment. I had a dark room. (laughs)

    15. CW

      (laughs)

    16. DM

      I was just... It was like, it was like a cinema.

    17. CW

      Yeah.

    18. DM

      It was a cinema room. A dark room, full of snacks.

    19. CW

      The blackout blinds. The-

    20. DM

      Blackout everything, honestly. And it would be pitch black. So, you know, that's the dream.

    21. CW

      Yeah.

    22. DM

      And I used to, I used to remember planning my Sundays.

    23. CW

      Yep.

    24. DM

      I'd order Domino's. The, this, this, the weekend are r- revolved around the comedowns. You know, this is the, this is the treat for myself and mentally rewarding yourself with a comedown, wh- how is that ever gonna get you to, to where you want to be? Um, and you're completely right in the point that when you get to, when you get to, like, the pain of staying the same, you know, you're sat there looking like, "This isn't me. This isn't who I want to be."

    25. CW

      Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    26. DM

      "I don't want to be this person in five years. The person I want to be in five years is doing da, da, da, da, da. I need to do something, I need to make a change."

    27. CW

      Yeah. I mean, uh, there's absolutely some people who don't have a problem with substances.

  20. 39:00 – 41:00

    Whos Suffering

    1. CW

      I have a, I have, I'm a club promoter, right?

    2. DM

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      That's what I do for a living. Like, we see this, we see every single-

    4. DM

      Person.

    5. CW

      ... strata.

    6. DM

      Can you, can you see the people who are suffering? Are T-

    7. CW

      Not on a night out. Not on a night out, no. Because everyone on a, on a night out, again, you've got alcohol brain. The guys that are on a night out, even the ones that have got a depressive personality, or the ones that are suffering, it needs to be chronic, like really severe-

    8. DM

      Yep.

    9. CW

      ... for someone to be in the middle of a night out ten beers deep and still not happy.

    10. DM

      Yeah, yeah.

    11. CW

      Because, again, the alcohol and the drugs, they wash the environment-

    12. DM

      Yeah.

    13. CW

      ... with the rose-tinted colored glasses.

    14. DM

      Mm-hmm.

    15. CW

      And then everyone's having a good time. And they're the life and soul of the party. But a lot of the time, it's the people. If you want to try and identify the people that are struggling the most with the substances, look at the ones that are the most outgoing on a night out.

    16. DM

      Yeah, yeah. T- you know, do you know, my, mine got bad when I started just to drink alone.

    17. CW

      Yeah.

    18. DM

      That was when, that's when I knew. When I sat there. I, I had a couple of nights where I was just like... I remember, because you remember drinking a couple of bottles of wine at home alone on Saturday, 'cause I wasn't going out, I don't know why.

    19. CW

      Yep.

    20. DM

      And I lived 45 minutes away and I text a friend to ask him if he can bring some coke-

    21. CW

      Yeah.

    22. DM

      ... to the house.

    23. CW

      An hour away.

    24. DM

      An hour away.

    25. CW

      On your own.

    26. DM

      On my own.

    27. CW

      So you can just rack up lines and sneak away.

    28. DM

      Yeah. Can you imagine that?

    29. CW

      Yeah.

    30. DM

      And that's... And I was like-

  21. 41:00 – 43:00

    Being Selfreferential

    1. CW

      than a hangover should make you feel, and you know what the ca- I think you, you know how a hangover should be.

    2. DM

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CW

      But if you start becoming self-referential-

    4. DM

      Yep.

    5. CW

      ... and if you can't get out of bed for the day, and if you start thinking that, "I'm not actualizing my potential," all the things that you've identified, that's, you know, that's a, that's a highlight for it.

    6. DM

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      So talk to me about what sobriety's done.

    8. DM

      God, what hasn't it done? Um, lot, I've lost about three and a half stone.

    9. CW

      Oh (laughs) .

    10. DM

      Have you seen a picture? Have you seen a picture?

    11. CW

      No (laughs) .

    12. DM

      I'll show you one. I got up.

    13. CW

      I'll put it up on the screen.

    14. DM

      I'll put it up on the screen but this is, this is old.

    15. CW

      Three and a half stone, so that's like, what, like, 18 kilos? 15 kilos? Something like that.

    16. DM

      21.

    17. CW

      21 kilos?

    18. DM

      Yeah. I was, uh, so that, that's me.

    19. CW

      Uh-huh.

    20. DM

      That's me.

    21. CW

      Oh wow, that photo looks like it's been stretched.

    22. DM

      Yeah.

    23. CW

      That photo looks like it's been stretched in widescreen.

    24. DM

      And then-

    25. CW

      But it's not, you're just massive.

    26. DM

      Just massive.

    27. CW

      (laughs)

    28. DM

      And I'll show you, I'll show you from side profile.

    29. CW

      (laughs)

    30. DM

      So this was me.

  22. 43:00 – 47:00

    Time Efficiency

    1. CW

      you would look at the biggest costs that you could get rid of on that time. And if you look through that and every single week you go, your accountant looks at you and he says, "What's, what's between 7:00 AM and 4:00 PM every Saturday, you do fuck all. And then on a Sunday you're working at o- at 50% capacity, and then on a Monday you're still only at 80% capacity."

    2. DM

      Yeah. Yeah.

    3. CW

      "What the fuck are you doing?" And you think, "Right, okay, even if I don't have a problem with it, just from a pure time efficiency perspective, if I want to maximize my experience of life in the mere 80 years that we've got on this planet, I need to make sure that I'm not spasticating myself-"

    4. DM

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      "... on a weekly basis." (laughs)

    6. DM

      And it's the problem there, the thing is, it's the routine, is if you do it every week.

    7. CW

      Yeah.

    8. DM

      That's when it starts to become like ques- ... That's when I think someone should question themselves because there's so much many, so much more things to do out there.

    9. CW

      Yeah.

    10. DM

      You know, we do, we, we do live busy lives, you know, we do work hard, everyone does work hard. Um, so having that sense of doing something you want to do-

    11. CW

      Yes.

    12. DM

      ... and it's n- ... Despite what people think, it's not going out getting me- messed up with their friends all the time. There's other things they will find that they enjoy.

    13. CW

      Absolutely.

    14. DM

      So I found that I love running, I love working out. Uh-

    15. CW

      Who'd have known that the guy in those photos loved running?

    16. DM

      Honestly.

    17. CW

      That genuinely doesn't look like you could have ran a Burger King and back.

    18. DM

      I would've, I would've ran to Burger King.

    19. CW

      (laughs)

    20. DM

      I would've ran to Burger King.

    21. CW

      Would've ran to Burger King, you're off license at the dealers-.

    22. DM

      Exactly.

    23. CW

      That was the only three places you could.

    24. DM

      They're the only places I'd have gone to.

    25. CW

      Yeah.

    26. DM

      Um, so found out I love wo- ... I loved running. I got a, um, I guess I replaced one addiction with another, but I love how running made, made me feel.

    27. CW

      That runner's high, man.

    28. DM

      Yeah, it's true. Runner's high is so true. Um, 'cause you, it is an element that you're running away from your problems as well.

    29. CW

      A little bit.

    30. DM

      A little bit. Um-

  23. 47:00 – 49:00

    More To Life Than Going Out

    1. CW

      feels uncomfortable about you being in clubs with other guys.

    2. DM

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CW

      Or just generally you wanna spend time together 'cause you've got someone around.

    4. DM

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      But even without that, I think that it is really important for people to realize that there's more to life than going out and getting leathered.

    6. DM

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      And, you know, I'm saying this from, I'm the guy that makes his-

    8. DM

      No, this-

    9. CW

      ... living off the back of this.

    10. DM

      Yeah. You're having a go at me for social media and you'll be-

    11. CW

      Oh, no, no, don't look at me. Well we-

    12. DM

      ... shoveling people into clubs every weekend.

    13. CW

      (laughs) What can I say? It's, you know, my business partner of 10 years, I had, I had a chat with him the other day and he was talking about he'd gone, gone to see one of his friends who was in rehab-

    14. DM

      Yeah.

    15. CW

      ... who is 44 now. And he was thinking to himself at the time like, "What is it that we're doing to people when we get them to go out on a night out?" Like, but what you ... You hit the nail on the head, that the problem is going out and getting blitzed every weekend.

    16. DM

      Yeah.

    17. CW

      Some people can go out and they can have ... I've got a number of friends that can do it that are in their, their division two and division three partiers. And they're able to go out, they can do a five-pint night. They can wake up the next morning and maybe they shouldn't drive, but after they've had a bacon sandwich-

    18. DM

      Yeah.

    19. CW

      ... they're sweet to go.

    20. DM

      Yeah.

    21. CW

      Do you know what I mean?

    22. DM

      Yeah.

    23. CW

      And that's fine.

    24. DM

      A- and I think it's about everyone really needs to ask themselves their relationship with alcohol. Wh- do they think it's healthy?

    25. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    26. DM

      Um, it's a hard question to ask yourself because you don't, never want to self-analyze negatively. Um-

    27. CW

      100%.

    28. DM

      Uh, I do think that there is a subculture. This is, this is my, this is my thinking is that there is a, the vegan trend that's come up in the last couple of years-

    29. CW

      Yeah.

    30. DM

      ... has been sort of really grassroots. It really, um, is r- ran by the youth people.

  24. 49:00 – 51:00

    Self Branding

    1. CW

      gi- giving someone grief for wearing a Canada Goose jacket will also be the same one that will spend a 100 quid on two bags of coke that's been done off the back of dead children in Colombia.

    2. DM

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    3. CW

      You know? Gang wars and all the rest of the stuff that get your, get those drugs up your nose-

    4. DM

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      ... are just as damaging and to a lot more sentient beings than the coyote that's died to make a jacket-

    6. DM

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      ... or whatever it might be. So, but, again, with that, what are people doing? They're being very selective about what they want to be self-referential about.

    8. DM

      Exactly. And also it works on social media for how they're perceived.

    9. CW

      Oh, absolutely. The self-branding of that's fine.

    10. DM

      Yeah.

    11. CW

      You're never gonna put up a video of you snorting a line-

    12. DM

      (laughs)

    13. CW

      ... but you can definitely put up a video of you saying that it's bad to-

    14. DM

      Yep.

    15. CW

      ... uh, share a video of someone-

    16. DM

      Yep.

    17. CW

      ... trapping a coyote for a jacket.

    18. DM

      Yep. But I, I think, I thinks, I think the Tea Tar also movement will, will come soon.

    19. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    20. DM

      I think there'll be a rise in young people w- which we've already see- seen at universities, there's actually a decrease in the amount of time students go out, mainly because of money.

    21. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    22. DM

      But I think there'll be, um, a little bit more education around the space. I think you'll have generations of young people who choose not to drink.

    23. CW

      I agree. Well, I mean, my master's dissertation was the effectiveness of anti-alcohol advertising on students at Newcastle.

    24. DM

      Yeah.

    25. CW

      And it basically found that none of it was.

    26. DM

      No.

    27. CW

      That people wear the crazy stories as a badge of honor. They literally say, like, "How was your night out?" "Man, it was crazy. I woke up in hospital."

    28. DM

      Yeah.

    29. CW

      Hang on. Like, that, uh, just-

    30. DM

      (laughs) Just think about it.

  25. 51:00 – 53:00

    Sobriety

    1. CW

      opposite ends of the spectrum.

    2. DM

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CW

      So for the people that don't know, I did six months sober last year, which began December 2016 and finished in May 2017. And then I did six months of partying again, and drinking. But after my six months of sobriety, which I only did to see if I could do it-

    4. DM

      Mm-hmm.

    5. CW

      ... I, I knew that I, based on the time, availability, uh, set of accounts that I came up with, I knew that if I wanted to be really successful for a period-

    6. DM

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      ... and I had some plans, things that I wanted to achieve, I needed to get some more time out, I needed to squeeze more time out of my day. And that sobriety enabled me to do that. But we're coming at it from someone who has used sobriety to stop an addiction or to stop a habitual, um, problem with substances, and then someone who's coming from it who I wouldn't have classed myself as having a problem with alcohol, I'd have only drank maybe once every two weeks.

    8. DM

      Mm-hmm.

    9. CW

      But the times that I did, it wasn't good for me.

    10. DM

      Yep.

    11. CW

      So, I guess you've got a fairly wide spectrum-

    12. DM

      Spectrum.

    13. CW

      ... of people there that are covered.

    14. DM

      Yeah.

    15. CW

      That, for whom sobriety ... So you were talking, really interesting what you touched on about the six-week point. So I didn't track it at the time, I should have written a diary and I didn't, about what the sobriety was doing to me-

    16. DM

      Mm-hmm.

    17. CW

      ... because I think I guess a lot of what sobriety for you would've meant would've been not doing negative things before they start to do positive things.

    18. DM

      Yeah.

    19. CW

      Whereas for me, I was kind of starting, I guess, from a baseline of okay day to day, and then improving from there.

    20. DM

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    21. CW

      But I w- I've always said to my friends that has talked to me about it, after about two months, my mental agility-

    22. DM

      Oh.

    23. CW

      ... and my verbal dexterity just went through the roof.

    24. DM

      It's ridiculous, yeah. And on that, on that point, um, y- it's, it's, think, uh, people, everyone listening, I think it's f- think deeply about when was the last time you can picture yourself going a month without alcohol?

    25. CW

      (laughs)

    26. DM

      From being 16 years old.

    27. CW

      I use this story all the time.

    28. DM

      You can't. I couldn't. I couldn't. You know, you do, you do a dry-

    29. CW

      It's

  26. 53:00 – 55:00

    Dry Run

    1. CW

      like... (laughs) Yeah, it is hard.

    2. DM

      If you do a dr- hey, if you do a dry January, okay?

    3. CW

      Yeah.

    4. DM

      You'll wake up in the ye- new, new year hungover.

    5. CW

      (laughs)

    6. DM

      So you won't have alcoholics resistance the second or third.

    7. CW

      (laughs)

    8. DM

      And then you know what? You'll give in the last weekend because it's still January. So you only do, like, three, four weeks.

    9. CW

      What a way to humble everyone that's just completed dry January. (laughs)

    10. DM

      (laughs) Uh-

    11. CW

      It wasn't dry January, it was dry three weeks.

    12. DM

      It's the dry three weeks, you know, got, it was bit of a refresh while you're back into the gym. And it's not long enough to really notice a difference.

    13. CW

      No, I agree. I think, uh, six months is a really intimidating amount of time. But for me, the, the changes that it made for me-

    14. DM

      Yeah.

    15. CW

      ... were, were absolutely fantastic. Like, uh, verbal dexterity, mental agility, quality of sleep, um, ability to regulate emotions.

    16. DM

      Yep.

    17. CW

      Uh, everything.

    18. DM

      Energy.

    19. CW

      Uh, absolutely, yeah. And what it does is I think it, it starts to let you deal with some of the things that are more, um, that are more chronic, that have been around for a little bit longer.

    20. DM

      Yeah.

    21. CW

      The problems that require a deeper look at yourself, things to do with your values-

    22. DM

      Mm-hmm.

    23. CW

      ... and whether you're living with virtue, and what, um, what values you want to be cultivating in the long term as a, as a person.

    24. DM

      Yep.

    25. CW

      Because it's very difficult to think about, "Am I, am I living a virtuous life that is actuating my potential?" when you're hanging out of your ass, filling your mouth full of Domino's on a Sunday-

    26. DM

      (laughs) it's...

    27. CW

      ... or you're waking up with some girl whose name you don't know.

    28. DM

      It's complete, completely true, because the, the questions you ask yourself in them situations are very small. You don't ask yourself big questions.

    29. CW

      Yeah.

    30. DM

      You know, your... when you're in a state of hungover, your body's telling you, "I need food, I need drink, I need..." It's sudden, short-term-

  27. 55:00 – 57:00

    Values

    1. DM

      your values of who you want to be as a person." I was like, "What the hell are my values?"

    2. CW

      Haven't got a clue.

    3. DM

      Haven't got a clue.

    4. CW

      'Cause it's all been washed under the rug, man. And you're right, like if you're, if you're from 16 and spending time recreationally for you is going out and getting blitzed with your mates-

    5. DM

      Which it is.

    6. CW

      ... you don't actually- you don't actually know what life is outside of that.

    7. DM

      No.

    8. CW

      And then all that you need to do is add in a little bit of, um, vicariously living your life through other people, through social media-

    9. DM

      Yep.

    10. CW

      ... through TV-

    11. DM

      Yep.

    12. CW

      ... and all the rest of the stuff, and before you know it, like ...

    13. DM

      You beat yourself up over- over where you are.

    14. CW

      Yeah. You- you- you're causing the problem or you're- you're creating, you're building the wall that is so high you can't climb over it anymore-

    15. DM

      Yeah.

    16. CW

      ... and you want to see the other side.

    17. DM

      Yep.

    18. CW

      And I think that that- that level of sort of helplessness or- or just dissatisfaction.

    19. DM

      Yeah.

    20. CW

      It's just dissatisfaction and I think that it's- it's something that people don't have to deal with and I think that's the- that's the- the key takeaway from this is that you don't have to go out and get absolutely blitzed. Because again, like we say, there's differing leagues of partyer, right?

    21. DM

      Yep. Yeah.

    22. CW

      There's- there's the ones who've gone to the absolute extreme and there's the ones that have, that are able to manage their alcohol use.

    23. DM

      Mm-hmm.

    24. CW

      And for the ones that do, then, you know-

    25. DM

      Yeah.

    26. CW

      ... crack on. Sobriety will help and it will be a really, really good test for you in terms of can you win something, can you win a battle that most people couldn't?

    27. DM

      That's the- that's the big thing there, it's like proving to yourself that you can do something that no- n- not- not 99% of the rest of the population can't. And I think that is a- is a- is a big thing, because it's a sense of achievement. It's not like-

    28. CW

      Absolutely.

    29. DM

      ... it's like a- it's real, um ...

    30. CW

      It's a badge of honor.

  28. 57:00 – 1:04:49

    People are people

    1. DM

      him on the- like when I must have been like month three into being sober and he was like, "I can't- I could never do what you do."

    2. CW

      (laughs)

    3. DM

      I was like for a minute like, no way.

    4. CW

      The guy is so disciplined with his fitness.

    5. DM

      This guy is so disciplined in his life, he- he- he looks like a god, he lifts un- ... and you could never do what I do?

    6. CW

      He can't get sober.

    7. DM

      That was like, hang on a minute, I'm doing something here that is so far away from norm, but I'm just like, I'm- I'm gonna discover new things that people are- people don't do.

    8. CW

      It's really rare for people to take notice of much of what you post online if it isn't something that's really monumental or about your family.

    9. DM

      Yeah. Yeah.

    10. CW

      Like if it's not, I'm having a kid, I'm getting married, I'm moving away, like for the most part, unless it's something really funny that- that bangs-

    11. DM

      Yeah, yeah.

    12. CW

      ... like in, it's like a 300 liker about someone that's parked on your street.

    13. DM

      You've been following my tweets, haven't you? (laughs)

    14. CW

      Uh, yeah, I can't say. Uh, yeah, unless it's one of those ones, like you don't and- you don't, people don't come up and speak to you, but f- I only posted about it maybe three or four times last year and the number of people that came up to me, you're right, and said, "Mate, are you s- are you still doing that six months sober thing?" Like, "Yeah." "Fucking hell, like what's going on?"

    15. DM

      Yeah.

    16. CW

      Like, but it's- it's not that big of a deal. "Mate, I- I don't even know how you do it, you know, it's just like, it's just one of them things, like you've got to, you know, how do you not like ..." And after a while when people say, "Do you want a drink?" And you go, "No." And you can say to them-

    17. DM

      It's great.

    18. CW

      ... without it being twatty, you can say-

    19. DM

      Yeah.

    20. CW

      ... "No, I'm- I'm doing six months sober." Or, "I'm- I'm- I'm doing a period of sobriety." Um, so-

    21. DM

      Uh, and- and on that point as well, the biggest reason why people say they could never do it is because they don't think they could have fun without it. And you're- you're there in a situation where you're still out with people, your friends, you're going out, you- you're actually in the night out, you're out later probably than any- ever before.

    22. CW

      (laughs)

    23. DM

      And you're actually having more fun.

    24. CW

      Yeah.

    25. DM

      And that's like the biggest- the biggest thing I hear from people is, "I can never do it 'cause I feel like I'll be boring and I don't know what my friends will think of me."

    26. CW

      So here we go, people use alcohol 100% on a night out to mask the fact that they're not as extroverted as their friends think that they are.

    27. DM

      Yep.

    28. CW

      They're- they're- they're worried that they're not as good, so that is the equivalent of taking a performance enhancing drug to be able to perform at an adequate level at your sport of choice.

    29. DM

      Yep.

    30. CW

      So if you are on a night out and you don't- you've got approach anxiety as pickup artists sort of call it for going up and speaking to a girl, like I'd remember when I was in uni, I'd be like, oh, like can't go talk to that girl, knock back five Jagerbombs-

Episode duration: 1:04:49

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