Controlling The World's Social Media | Dominic McGregor

Chris Williamson 0:00 (wind blowing) So Dominic McGregor, welcome to Modern Wisdom. How are you?

Dominic McGregor 0:09 Good, thank you. How are you?

Chris Williamson 0:10 Very good, thank you.

Dominic McGregor 0:10 Good drive?

Chris Williamson 0:11 Yeah, yeah (laughs) , good drive down from Newcastle to Manchester in the rain. Just typical British weather.

Dominic McGregor 0:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 0:16 Um, so, (sighs) it's c- it's crazy to come into this office, which is several thousand square feet and looks like a labyrinth, um, with sleeping pods and a bar and a fully functioning kitchen-

Dominic McGregor 0:30 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 0:30 ... with a chef in, and all the rest of it. And this is where memes are made-

Dominic McGregor 0:34 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 0:35 ... that, that run around the UK, right?

Dominic McGregor 0:37 It's, it's the meme factory, yeah. We, uh, I don't, I don't, I didn't like that title, um, but-

Chris Williamson 0:41 I saw in that article, like-

Dominic McGregor 0:42 (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 0:43 Was it on the, was it on The Guardian?

Dominic McGregor 0:44 It was The Guardian, yeah. Um, and it just called us the meme factory, which we are. You know, we, uh, we make a lot of, a lot of content here. But, um, yeah, a little bit about us. So we started, um, in the room next door with, like, a white table. It's like the same one that we're on here.

Chris Williamson 0:59 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 0:59 There was, the only thing is there was four of them, one for every single person. And we were sat, and I think these are, like, very similar to the white tables we had.

Chris Williamson 1:06 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 1:07 We, we got them as a li- little bit of a memory. Um, and we, um, were working in the room, starting Social Chain, which is a marketing agency.

Chris Williamson 1:18 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 1:18 And it took us, you know, three or four months to really find out that we were actually in, on to something. And what was different between us and any other marketing agency, is we own big communities.

Chris Williamson 1:29 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 1:29 So we own big social media pages from Student Problems, SPARF, Love Food, uh, BFIT Motivation, uh, and we went and worked with brands on them communities.

Chris Williamson 1:38 So I'm right in saying that you guys have got access to about 400 million people, is that right?

Dominic McGregor 1:43 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:44 The total combined reach-

Dominic McGregor 1:45 Across Facebook and-

Chris Williamson 1:46 ... is about 400 million people?

Dominic McGregor 1:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Across the world.

Chris Williamson 1:49 Which is-

Dominic McGregor 1:50 We have followers in, like, Taiwan-

Chris Williamson 1:52 Fucking stupid.

Dominic McGregor 1:52 ... everywhere.

Chris Williamson 1:53 Like, what? Like, who's got 400 million of anything?

Dominic McGregor 1:56 I know.

Chris Williamson 1:56 Like (laughs) it's just crazy.

Dominic McGregor 1:57 When you put it into a graphic, it's, like, ridiculous. Like-

Chris Williamson 2:00 It's terrifying.

Dominic McGregor 2:01 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:02 But f- so, uh, I found out about you guys about two years ago from one of my best mates who actually works for you.

Dominic McGregor 2:07 Yep.

Chris Williamson 2:07 And what he explained to me about Social Chain at the time, felt absolutely ground-breaking, that you guys have access to the network.

Dominic McGregor 2:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 2:17 You understand the platform.

Dominic McGregor 2:18 Yep.

Chris Williamson 2:18 And then you do the creative?

Dominic McGregor 2:20 Yep.

Chris Williamson 2:20 And for me, I was like, "How has no one come up with this before?" Because influencers have been around for, what, like, five, ten years? Or-

Dominic McGregor 2:28 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:28 ... I guess five years kind of really prevalently.

Dominic McGregor 2:30 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think, I think the reason we, we fell upon it is that, um, we, we had influence I guess, but our influences wasn't our faces.

Chris Williamson 2:39 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 2:39 So we had to f- we had to fight to kind of-

Chris Williamson 2:40 What was the first page that you started off with?

Dominic McGregor 2:42 Student Problems.

Chris Williamson 2:43 Was it really?

Dominic McGregor 2:44 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:44 And who started that?

Dominic McGregor 2:45 Me.

Chris Williamson 2:45 You started-

Dominic McGregor 2:46 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:46 ... Student Problems?

Dominic McGregor 2:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:47 No way.

Dominic McGregor 2:48 So I was, I was at university in Edinburgh.

Chris Williamson 2:50 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 2:50 Um, and I went out one night. I don't know why. I honestly, it was like a really heavy night. It was like half-past five. Actually, do you know what? I think it's exactly five years ago today.

Chris Williamson 3:01 No way.

Dominic McGregor 3:01 I think, I think. I'll double check, but I think it was the 7th of February.

Chris Williamson 3:04 That's fantastic.

Dominic McGregor 3:05 So I think it is. Um, went out. And woke up the next day, and had no toilet paper in my toilet.

Chris Williamson 3:14 (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 3:15 So instead of, you know, and literally the, the shop was down the bottom of the s- the street. I coulda walked and bought it. So instead of going and getting it, I decided to start a Twitter page and tweet about my life.

Chris Williamson 3:25 'Cause you didn't have any toilet paper?

Dominic McGregor 3:26 The fact I had no toilet paper.

Chris Williamson 3:27 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 3:27 And then for the next couple of weeks, just tweeting everything that I was doing.

Chris Williamson 3:31 Uh-huh.

Dominic McGregor 3:31 Literally the, my life through my eyes.

Chris Williamson 3:33 Yeah, yeah.

Dominic McGregor 3:33 So, like, realizing how expensive cheese was, for example.

Chris Williamson 3:37 (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 3:37 Which is very expensive when you s-

Chris Williamson 3:38 (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 3:38 ... when you've, when you move out. Um, I love cheese. And then just little things like that, and then it got to, like, 20,000 followers in the space of two weeks. And then, um, Steve got in touch with me 'cause he was running a website which was like Coventry for Students.

Chris Williamson 3:52 Okay.

Dominic McGregor 3:52 It was called WallPark.

Chris Williamson 3:53 Right.

Dominic McGregor 3:54 And, um, he was kind of just doing the traditional mark- traditional marketing methods by leaflets and nightclubs and, uh-

Chris Williamson 4:00 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 4:01 ... everything else people do to try and reach students. And, um, took a step back of it and actually realized that so- that social is where students were spending their attention.

Chris Williamson 4:09 Absolutely.

Dominic McGregor 4:10 Looked on Twitter for students. Student Problems came up, emailed me. We met in Vodka Revs in York for about an hour, had a chat. And then after that conversation, I'd, I dropped out university, moved to Manchester, started working at WallPark with him. And then we just built, built more and more social media pages till the point where we got about 10 million driving, traffic to WallPark. Realized that, you know what? One day we're gonna have to get money from advertisers.

Chris Williamson 4:35 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 4:36 We could drive a million people to WallPark, but we've got 10 million people on social. Why would advertisers wanna be on a website when they can just be on the social media pages?

Chris Williamson 4:43 You can build a directing cut out the middle man.

Dominic McGregor 4:45 Exactly. So we started putting brands on social, got rid of the website, traveled the world, found more people who ran big social pages, like Hannah who ran Hogwarts Logic, which is the biggest Harry Potter page.

Chris Williamson 4:56 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 4:56 Got them all together, put them in the warehouse here, um, and just, we've just tried to see if this was something, and it was.

Chris Williamson 5:05 It definitely feels like it is, doesn't it?

Dominic McGregor 5:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 5:07 It's, it's cra- it's absolutely mad that you guys are at the forefront of a wave of s- social media, not in terms of adoption but more in terms of how it's, how the use from marketing is being delivered to people.

Dominic McGregor 5:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 5:22 Um, I think that, that organic, genuinely creative adding value kind of content.

Dominic McGregor 5:29 Yeah, yeah. I think, I think it's, um, meaningful.

Chris Williamson 5:32 Yes.

Dominic McGregor 5:32 People, people we, us generation, I'm pretty sure everyone's got ad, ad blockers-

Chris Williamson 5:37 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 5:37 ... on their laptop, they're, they're sick of telling, being told what to do by brands. Um, you know, our, our whole f- thing is now about how brands can actually form a connection-

Chris Williamson 5:46 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 5:46 ... and care about their consumers. And, and we know as people, individuals ourselves, what we purchase now actually depends much more on what the brand says about us-

Chris Williamson 5:56 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 5:56 ... rather than anything, rather than quality, rather than, um, cost in some instances.

Chris Williamson 6:00 We self-brand with everything.

Dominic McGregor 6:01 Exactly, exactly.

Chris Williamson 6:02 It's interesting coming at it from a club promoter's perspective because everyone goes out to a club event on a night and-... everyone listening will know, you get tagged in the photos-

Dominic McGregor 6:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:11 ... and then the next day, the album goes up-

Dominic McGregor 6:12 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:12 ... and then you get tagged in them, and that tag stays on your Facebook profile with a watermark of the event at the bottom.

Dominic McGregor 6:17 Yep.

Chris Williamson 6:17 And that means, "Oh, I'm a, I'm a Voodoo girl." Like, "I go Voodoo."

Dominic McGregor 6:20 Yep.

Chris Williamson 6:20 "I like this kind of music."

Dominic McGregor 6:21 Yep.

Chris Williamson 6:22 And immediately, as soon as someone sees that on your Facebook profile, they can make a whole bunch of assumptions-

Dominic McGregor 6:28 Assumptions.

Chris Williamson 6:28 ... about who you are and about the values that you have.

Dominic McGregor 6:30 Mm-hmm. And they're not normally wrong.

Chris Williamson 6:32 No, they're not. Which is, I guess-

Dominic McGregor 6:35 The same way you could probably do it through looking at someone's YouTube history.

Chris Williamson 6:39 (laughs) Yeah. Which is-

Dominic McGregor 6:40 I always say that, you know, that the YouTu- if you go on someone's YouTube suggested videos-

Chris Williamson 6:44 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 6:45 ... that is how you find out who they are.

Chris Williamson 6:47 That's a really, really good point.

Dominic McGregor 6:48 Honestly, works with girls.

Chris Williamson 6:49 It's just as well, it's just as well that the history isn't public, is it?

Dominic McGregor 6:51 Girls, honestly, is the worst one.

Chris Williamson 6:53 (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 6:54 Honestly, girls, lot of them are serial killers.

Chris Williamson 6:57 Hmm.

Dominic McGregor 6:57 A lot of them, murders and s- mass murders and serial killers.

Chris Williamson 7:00 Really?

Dominic McGregor 7:01 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 7:01 Because they're just in- interested in-

Dominic McGregor 7:02 They're really interested in, like, crime stuff, aren't they?

Chris Williamson 7:04 Yeah, my, my ex-missus was actually.

Dominic McGregor 7:05 Yeah, yeah, really, really good at ... 'cause it's their world, trying to find out, they all, they all want to be detectives-

Chris Williamson 7:09 You reckon?

Dominic McGregor 7:09 ... for some rea- for some reason.

Chris Williamson 7:10 Fair enough.

Dominic McGregor 7:11 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 7:12 Um, so you've got yourself into Social Chain?

Dominic McGregor 7:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 7:15 And, is that, where do you, when did you begin the actual, um, brand of Social Chain? When did that start?

Dominic McGregor 7:22 Yeah. So we were at Wall Park for about, Steve was, Steve started it when he was, um, 18, so he was doing it for about three years, I was there for about a year.

Chris Williamson 7:29 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 7:30 Um, and then when we sold that back to the investors, we had a bit of time out, where we went traveling the world.

Chris Williamson 7:35 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 7:35 Um, we had, there was this kind of talk of Social Chain, we came up with the name pretty early on when we still at Wall Park, but-

Chris Williamson 7:42 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 7:42 ... it didn't mean anything.

Chris Williamson 7:43 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 7:44 Um, we were like, this is like Social Chain, so there's a chain of pages, you know, this, this is what it is, it's our social chain, it's what's driving people to Wall Park. And then we went to Thailand, uh, went to Brazil, New York, did a, you know, a bit of living.

Chris Williamson 7:57 Not bad fact-finding, that.

Dominic McGregor 7:58 No, not bad, no, we were, we were doing up our market research. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 8:02 (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 8:02 21, 20, we did actually spend some time in Silicon Valley doing some consulting-

Chris Williamson 8:05 Actually did do some work.

Dominic McGregor 8:06 Yeah, we did do some work, yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:07 (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 8:07 Uh, we went to the World Cup in Brazil, which was cool.

Chris Williamson 8:10 That's sick.

Dominic McGregor 8:10 That was really good, yeah. Um, but I thought it was gonna be full of girls, but it was the World Cup and it was just men-

Chris Williamson 8:16 Full of blokes.

Dominic McGregor 8:17 ... full of blokes everywhere.

Chris Williamson 8:17 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 8:17 Argentinians everywhere.

Chris Williamson 8:19 (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 8:19 Which was cool, but-

Chris Williamson 8:20 Yeah. Nice for a while, but-

Dominic McGregor 8:21 ... was when you're 20, when you're 21 and you go to Brazil for the first time, you're expecting like-

Chris Williamson 8:25 Something different.

Dominic McGregor 8:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:26 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 8:26 Um, and then we came back from that 'cause one of our clients who we were doing consultancy for wanted us to launch their new product.

Chris Williamson 8:34 Okay.

Dominic McGregor 8:34 So we launched their new product and they turned around and offered us investment.

Chris Williamson 8:38 Wow.

Dominic McGregor 8:39 Yeah. So, um, did really well. Got to about 4 million users. They invested and that's when Social Chain became a thing.

Chris Williamson 8:46 Okay.

Dominic McGregor 8:47 Which was 3rd November 2014.

Chris Williamson 8:51 So that's not long ago, at all.

Dominic McGregor 8:53 No.

Chris Williamson 8:53 You're talking like three and a half years.

Dominic McGregor 8:54 Yeah, three and a half, no, well, yeah, three, three, yeah, sort of three years.

Chris Williamson 8:57 That's crazy. And to get from there to now, accessing 400 million people, um, can you think of a top three favorite campaigns that you guys have done?

Dominic McGregor 9:09 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 9:09 Anything that springs to mind that people might not...

Dominic McGregor 9:11 Yeah. We did, um, the one, the one most people know is we did a campaign, um, where we hijacked a billboard in Manchester and put Welcome to Zlatan when Zlatan Ibrahimović signed for Man United.

Chris Williamson 9:24 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 9:24 That was pretty well known. Uh, but we've done some really cool things in, um, the stuff I like that we've done is a little bit more underground.

Chris Williamson 9:31 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 9:31 So we've done some really cool campaigns with Sky Bet, um, where we filmed two grands doing, taking part in Super 6, which was pretty cool.

Chris Williamson 9:41 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 9:41 And it's kind of shown the e- use case of the app. Um, and then I think, you know, go back to the crazy side of things, we blew up a VW Beetle, super dry, on Halloween.

Chris Williamson 9:51 Right.

Dominic McGregor 9:51 Which was pretty fun.

Chris Williamson 9:51 Was that on Facebook Live or something?

Dominic McGregor 9:53 Yeah, Facebook Live, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:54 Was that one of the ones where press fire to do it?

Dominic McGregor 9:56 Yeah, yeah, press fire.

Chris Williamson 9:57 Okay.

Dominic McGregor 9:57 Yeah. Did you see it?

Chris Williamson 9:58 Um, I saw, I th- did you guys do the one, was it Pretty Little Thing?

Dominic McGregor 10:02 Yep.

Chris Williamson 10:02 Yeah. Which was like a, was that maybe a balloon?

Dominic McGregor 10:04 Yeah, yeah, we did a balloon. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:05 Um-

Dominic McGregor 10:06 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:06 ... so I've seen, I saw the one for that.

Dominic McGregor 10:08 Yeah, we blew, we've blown a couple of things up.

Chris Williamson 10:09 And that's like one of the most highly engaged-

Dominic McGregor 10:11 Engaged live streams, yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:13 ... ever.

Dominic McGregor 10:13 Yeah, 2.5 million views, about a million comments.

Chris Williamson 10:16 In probably a couple of hours.

Dominic McGregor 10:17 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:20 Well, I mean, I, as soon as I saw that go out, I then saw ones where ice creams were melting in the sun and people had to comment on which one was gonna melt first, and-

Dominic McGregor 10:28 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:28 ... that kind of was the first foray into-

Dominic McGregor 10:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:31 ... seeing that sort of stuff go out live, so-

Dominic McGregor 10:32 And we were the first people to do produced live streams.

Chris Williamson 10:36 Yes.

Dominic McGregor 10:36 So you can put a phone up and live stream, like, the, the Drummond Puddle.

Chris Williamson 10:41 Yes.

Dominic McGregor 10:41 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:42 Yeah, yeah.

Dominic McGregor 10:42 That's, that's the new-

Chris Williamson 10:42 Drummond, so Drummond, Drummond Central's just around the corner from us.

Dominic McGregor 10:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was funny, that was the first ever use of live stream on Social.

Chris Williamson 10:48 Was it really?

Dominic McGregor 10:49 Yeah. Well, the first, it was accidental, it was like... But it was really good. Um, but that, we were the first ones to do a kind of orchestrated-

Chris Williamson 10:55 Yes.

Dominic McGregor 10:56 ... planned, produced live stream.

Chris Williamson 10:58 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 10:59 Um, which, when we just blew more things up and did some quizzes. But it's been that, that kind of, like, fast fashion, space, super dry-

Chris Williamson 11:06 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 11:06 ... Voodoo, Pretty Little Thing, ￡￡￡ successful.

Chris Williamson 11:09 So everyone that's listening will use social media to some extent.

Dominic McGregor 11:12 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:12 And a lot of people will use it by, in one form or another, to either raise their profile, which is, uh, brings them some sort of equity back.

Dominic McGregor 11:19 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:19 Um, or, like myself, it becomes kind of a little bit more of a brand and is directly associated with what your company's doing.

Dominic McGregor 11:25 Yep.

Chris Williamson 11:26 Are there any, are there any principles that you think that you've found out that people should be using on social media? Because it's very easy to get caught up-

Dominic McGregor 11:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:34 ... and we'll go into this in a second, it's very easy to get caught up and distracted on social media 'cause that's the purpose of it.

Dominic McGregor 11:39 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:39 But in terms of trying to use it effectively, I mean, I'm gonna guess adding, uh, producing content that adds value, whether it's personally or commercially?

Dominic McGregor 11:48 Yeah. I think, I think, um, what you touched on there in terms of like personal branding.

Chris Williamson 11:51 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 11:52 Everyone's really got to understand where social fits into their life. Um, it's like a shop window for who you are as a person, so you really need to, um, if you want to, some people don't want to do this, but if you want to, like, use it to your advantage-

Chris Williamson 12:03 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 12:04 ... um, and really like showcase you as an individual or, you know, what you're trying to achieve in your life and your journey, you've got to just think about what you want it to, how you want it to come across.

Chris Williamson 12:12 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 12:12 And I think, uh, some people are on the other side of the coin, they just wanna use it to-

Chris Williamson 12:16 ... in touch with our friends and stuff like that.

Dominic McGregor 12:18 Keeping, keeping friends, yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:18 But yeah, my, my, my mum does it. She's got one friend on Facebook and it's me.

Dominic McGregor 12:21 Is it? Oh.

Chris Williamson 12:22 And she, she, like, um, will message backwards and forwards and send videos.

Dominic McGregor 12:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:26 And the usage of it'll be really heavy-

Dominic McGregor 12:28 But it's-

Chris Williamson 12:28 ... but incredibly narrow. (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 12:30 Yeah. My gran's the same, she's got 30, like, 30 friends and it's just all her family.

Chris Williamson 12:33 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 12:34 But every time I post anything, I get like 10 likes because I've got my mum, my dad, my gran, my grandad, my aunt. It's like...

Chris Williamson 12:40 Oh, right. So you're straight, you're already boosted straight away.

Dominic McGregor 12:42 I'm boosted. Yeah, it looks like a really engaged post.

Chris Williamson 12:44 Yeah. Yeah, you've nailed it.

Dominic McGregor 12:45 But, yeah, I think the key is, like, really understand, like, auditing yourself and why you sh- why you should be using it.

Chris Williamson 12:53 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 12:53 It's difficult because we say this, we say this from... 'Cause I always feel like saying this from someone who, like, knows the world, like, like we'll go into it more, but what, what, what, what we've been both been through, we're a little bit older.

Chris Williamson 13:04 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 13:04 It's very difficult for 17, 16-year-olds to really understand-

Chris Williamson 13:07 To have that perspective?

Dominic McGregor 13:08 Yeah. Yes.

Chris Williamson 13:09 No, I, I, I agree. Um, so I think one of the things that I wanna talk about today is the ethical use of time on social media.

Dominic McGregor 13:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 13:18 Um, it's, as far as I'm concerned, an emerging topic at the moment.

Dominic McGregor 13:22 Yep.

Chris Williamson 13:22 I wouldn't say that it's been tremendously widespread yet. Um, but Sam Harris and a guy called Tristan Harris who was product philosopher at Google did a really famous podcast about three months ago. You can find it on Sam Harris's podcast, Waking Up, on iTunes, if you wanna have a listen yourself, and timewellspent.com is Tristan Harris's website. And on that, what he discusses is the cognitive biases that are being leveraged by apps and-

Dominic McGregor 13:50 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 13:50 ... by, um, developers in order to keep people's time on site.

Dominic McGregor 13:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 13:55 And they say that there's only so many hours in the day and that YouTube is competing with Facebook, is competing with Netflix, is competing with everything-

Dominic McGregor 14:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 14:04 ... to try and maximize the time on site. So, I wanted to ask yourself, as someone who is driving engaging content online, which means that people's time on site and time on screen will be increased, do you... have you got any concerns about this?

Dominic McGregor 14:18 Yeah, I think taking a step back also is we are, um, very, as, is it humans or animals? So we are very influenced by, like, social and you can see it on games like Candy Crush, the way they reward the kind of dopamine levels with their hits and their, like, re- you know. All that is designed towards keeping people addicted. Um, I am under the strong belief that, um, from two sides of the coin really. As a publisher, people always consume content. It's always been the same. We've had the same issues with, with TV to an extent. Not more of the, um, addiction side of things but with the kind of, um... I guess you have got small population with TV, you know, you do find people who are very sedimentary because they're always on watching TV.

Chris Williamson 15:08 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 15:08 Um, but I think with what is the important thing about social is, um, it's the age of people again. The younger generation, these people are a lot more highly influenced. They're not as developed, they're not as, um, assured of themselves let alone th- their surroundings. So yes, I do feel kind of, um, responsible in that instance and I think more can be done to educate young people. But again, it's very difficult because they're in... they're young.

Chris Williamson 15:35 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 15:36 They've got a lot of things on the plate already.

Chris Williamson 15:37 It's interesting because you guys have got, you've got the access.

Dominic McGregor 15:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:40 Which is, from knowing what the company is about, I'd definitely say that everybody here, as far as I'm aware, in the company culture is an altruistic one.

Dominic McGregor 15:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:49 Now, if that, um, sense of genuinely caring about people's wellbeing is to the contrary of what advertisers want, I guess therein may lie a little bit more of a difficulty. But certainly for me, it doesn't feel like coming into... the guys who make global trends and social media's office, it doesn't feel like I'm stepping into some underworld cabal-

Dominic McGregor 16:12 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:12 ... of like people trying to desperately claw at young kids' time-

Dominic McGregor 16:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:16 ... and make them feel incredibly self-conscious online and, like, desperate for likes and things like that. There's definitely an argument to be made I think that, you know, Student Problems was born of a genuine care or a genuine interest in the topic.

Dominic McGregor 16:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:33 Could you argue now that that's been monetized and is being used as a commercial vehicle? But the argument is that you're still making content that's even better and is still providing the same, the same end result for users.

Dominic McGregor 16:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:46 Do you know what I mean?

Dominic McGregor 16:47 Completely. And I think, um, with that comes massive responsibilities on the other side for us to be able to educate people. So we've recently done a, um, documentary around mental health on Student Problems where we've been... gone to Bristol University-

Chris Williamson 17:01 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 17:01 ... where last year there was eight suicides.

Chris Williamson 17:04 Wow.

Dominic McGregor 17:04 Like an ap-... yeah, like, a very high number of suicides.

Chris Williamson 17:08 It's the number one, number one killer of men under 40.

Dominic McGregor 17:11 Yep. It's-

Chris Williamson 17:12 Which is an, an absolutely terrifying topic.

Dominic McGregor 17:15 Yep.

Chris Williamson 17:15 But yeah.

Dominic McGregor 17:16 So, and you go to university, it's meant to be the best four years of your life and, you know, a lot of people, a lot of, you know, students are wanting to commit suicide. So we, we have a responsibility from that side of the fence to, yes, provide content which is entertaining and relevant but also to act as the voice of that generation, where we educate them on life, on the topics that they really need to know about as well.

Chris Williamson 17:40 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 17:40 So, um, yeah, we feel like we've... I've, I've started to feel that responsibility a lot more. Um-

Chris Williamson 17:46 I think the, the fact is that it's emerging, right?

Dominic McGregor 17:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:49 You don't know... it's like when a new drug comes out onto the market, we don't know the side effects of it until it's been in circulation for a while.

Dominic McGregor 17:54 Sure, yep.

Chris Williamson 17:55 And the same thing with social media that we only realized what it was and we st- it's still emerging is what actually social media is and how all of the different platforms work, before you then move on to tech addictions.

Dominic McGregor 18:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:08 And...

Dominic McGregor 18:09 And everyone's different though as well, everyone has a different relationship with it.

Chris Williamson 18:12 Absolutely.

Dominic McGregor 18:12 So it's very difficult to, um, diagnose anyone.

Chris Williamson 18:16 For sure.

Dominic McGregor 18:16 So it's like-... and I guess if you ask someone what their relationship is, then they're always gonna tell you it's healthy. They're not gonna really, like... Because the thing is, you know, Instagram is a highlight reel. You know, you go on Instagram and you've got all your friends posting about being on holidays, so you get the feeling that you're, um, sat there at work not doing anything, so that, that... Yes, it's social media, but it has a bigger impact on your life than just the actual addiction to the phone or to the, the, you know, that side of things. It has a longer lasting effect, so.

Chris Williamson 18:46 It's interesting because especially with Instagram, I read this quote online which I thought was really timely, and it basically said that Instagram specifically, you compare the best of everyone else's life with the worst of yours.

Dominic McGregor 18:57 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:58 Because you view your own life through a lens of, uh, complete understanding of all of your failings.

Dominic McGregor 19:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 19:05 You see, you see the blooper reel and that's what sticks.

Dominic McGregor 19:08 Yep.

Chris Williamson 19:08 'Cause our minds are Teflon for good thoughts and Velcro for bad thoughts.

Dominic McGregor 19:11 Yep. Yep.

Chris Williamson 19:11 That's how we evolved.

Dominic McGregor 19:12 Yep.

Chris Williamson 19:13 The person that, that they, um... Neanderthal, uh, the h- human that was living in a cave that decided that they weren't worried is the one that got eaten first-

Dominic McGregor 19:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 19:22 ... because they were the least risk-averse.

Dominic McGregor 19:24 Yep.

Chris Williamson 19:24 The ones that are risk-averse were the ones ... So it means that we're hardwired to think about things negatively, and you're right, when you see the best of other people's lives but the worst of yours, it does l- lead with a very, very harsh contrast.

Dominic McGregor 19:38 And it is funny, in, in this space, I think that influencers need to be more accountable because they're creating an unrealistic expectation of life.

Chris Williamson 19:45 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 19:45 Which is more detrimental than us posting videos of cheese-

Chris Williamson 19:51 No. I agree.

Dominic McGregor 19:51 ... on our page. So I think that's, that's where I think a bigger issue lies, is the responsibility of ad- of influencers to, to really, like, you know ... They're the, they're the ones that are damaging it because they're, they're showing an unrealistic lifestyle.

Chris Williamson 20:04 Well, theirs is more, if you're an influencer, it's a lot more of a surreptitious delivery of the brand message.

Dominic McGregor 20:10 Yep.

Chris Williamson 20:11 Because it, it comes about irrelevant of whether which brand is tagged in your outfits, or what supplement's at the front of your training session, or who it is that's paid for the video production or the photo to be taken.

Dominic McGregor 20:22 Yep.

Chris Williamson 20:22 People don't see that. They see, "Look at the condition of this particular guy, look at the arse on this particular girl, look at how exciting the holiday is," or, "She's on a boat again," or ...

Dominic McGregor 20:31 Yeah. And they, and they always all say, um, through their experiences and that they've had hard times when a lot of them probably haven't. They may, I'm maybe doing an injustice but some of them probably have, but they're ... I think working influencers have got quite an easy life.

Chris Williamson 20:43 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 20:44 They don't know what stress is, they don't know what strain is, and they, they're painting an unrealistic expectation to young people.

Chris Williamson 20:48 So there's maybe ... there needs to be a code of ethics that influencers should be thinking about using when they're putting stuff online?

Dominic McGregor 20:57 Yeah. I think, I think so, yeah. I think, um, it would be interesting to see the difference between someone who does follow influencers and someone who doesn't follow any influencers.

Chris Williamson 21:06 Absolutely.

Dominic McGregor 21:06 And let them judge things like a meal out, or a holiday, or like an outfit. Because if a girl ... I know it's a lot more in the female space because they are the ones that, um ... Not to sound sexist or anything, but they are, uh, more of users of social media for certain types of things.

Chris Williamson 21:25 I'm gonna guess you're, you're exactly in the position to know what the stats are on that as well.

Dominic McGregor 21:29 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I don't have them to hand but they're much more avid users and then, uh, if you compared a girl who doesn't follow any influencers versus someone who does follow influencers, and you ask them their 10 favorite brands, you'd probably get very different answers.

Chris Williamson 21:42 I agree. And then probably satisfaction and, um, like you say, you're going out for a meal.

Dominic McGregor 21:46 Yep.

Chris Williamson 21:47 And if you've previously in the day seen that someone was at Blue Marlin Dubai-

Dominic McGregor 21:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:51 ... one of your favorite influencers at Blue Marlin Dubai having teriyaki salmon and black cod and surrounded by million pound yachts, and then you've gone out f- on Valentine's Day to somewhere that doesn't fulfill that expectation, you're right, it's, um-

Dominic McGregor 22:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:06 ... it's not, not a tremendously positive environment at times, is it?

Dominic McGregor 22:09 Yeah. And these are people you will never meet. You'll never meet.

Chris Williamson 22:12 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 22:13 And that's th- what they're making you feel. It's ruining relationships, it's ruining friendships, it's ruining everything.

Chris Williamson 22:20 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 22:20 It's making such ... This is, this is what I think, anyway.

Chris Williamson 22:24 So if you've got affiliations with influencers and stuff like that, would you be ... I'm gonna guess the answer's yes to this, but you'd be maybe pushing them to think about, ma- be a little bit more mindful with their content and, and try and-

Dominic McGregor 22:36 Um, I- I f- ... It's difficult because it's, that's their livelihood as well.

Chris Williamson 22:41 You're right.

Dominic McGregor 22:41 So you've got, you've got a very balan- balancing act. And I think, um, I think it needs to be something that comes organically from the influencer space. They need to realize, someone will need to realize what they're doing. Um-

Chris Williamson 22:52 That'd be nice, wouldn't it?

Dominic McGregor 22:53 It would be nice.

Chris Williamson 22:53 Maybe, maybe, maybe that'll happen over the years.

Dominic McGregor 22:55 Maybe. Maybe.

Chris Williamson 22:56 So moving on to another topic that both of us are really passionate about.

Dominic McGregor 23:00 (clears throat)

Chris Williamson 23:00 Um, I want to talk about your problem with substances that you've had over the years.

Dominic McGregor 23:04 Yep.

Chris Williamson 23:05 Could you give us a bit of background on that please?

Dominic McGregor 23:06 Yeah. It's always a fun story to remember. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 23:10 (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 23:11 Um, yeah. I, I guess, I guess my life started like, same as anyone elses. You know, you go to university, you spend three nights a week drunk, it's life. Um-

Chris Williamson 23:18 Edinburgh's a good night, aren't they? Why, why, why not to really, really-

Dominic McGregor 23:20 It's really a good night. Why Not Monday. That was my mon-

Chris Williamson 23:22 (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 23:22 I used to finish football training at 10:00 and go straight to Why Not.

Chris Williamson 23:24 Shout out Jay Glass.

Dominic McGregor 23:25 (laughs) And, um, the Mack twins.

Chris Williamson 23:29 Yep.

Dominic McGregor 23:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 23:29 Never mind.

Dominic McGregor 23:30 They'll, they'll be watching.

Chris Williamson 23:31 They're still, they're still doing it, still killing it. Like, uh, Why Not. If anyone's going to Edinburgh, Why Not Nightclub. What, eight years in a row I think it's won like Best Pub in Edinburgh.

Dominic McGregor 23:38 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 23:38 It kills it.

Dominic McGregor 23:38 Monday nights.

Chris Williamson 23:39 It's the one.

Dominic McGregor 23:40 It's got, um, they were telling me it's a complete redesign.

Chris Williamson 23:43 Yeah. It's got an LED, th- room two's LED-

Dominic McGregor 23:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 23:46 ... ceiling, LED walls, it's fantastic.

Dominic McGregor 23:47 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 23:47 (laughs) Anyway, so.

Dominic McGregor 23:48 Um, so yeah, I, I lived a normal life. Um, and I would describe myself, the reason I think Student Problems was successful is because I was just your average student. I was completely straight middle of the line, you know, I've not got a privileged background, I'm not, I'm not from ... I've got a very middle, middle of the road, you know, I can relate.

Chris Williamson 24:04 Representative.

Dominic McGregor 24:04 Yeah, very representative, I can relate to everyone. Um, so that's why I thought it was so successful, because it was, it was just what you'd expect a student to be like. Um, came to Social, started Social Chain, um, and do you know what? We, we had very, a lot of success very qu- early. Um-

Chris Williamson 24:20 And you are what age around about now?

Dominic McGregor 24:22 I'm 21, 21 at this point.

Chris Williamson 24:24 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 24:24 So you're 21, um, a lot of success, and a lot of-... disposable income, and, um, really no responsibility to anyone other than yourself, um, and a lot of spare time. A lot, I say a lot of spare time, but, you know, unions and nights out. Um, so you've got a concoction there of four elements which, um, fuel really a lot of partying- Mm-hmm. ... because you're 21 with- The hedonic lifestyle, right? Yep. You've got the means and the ends to do what you want. Exactly. Um, so it starts out like that. It starts out celebrating, you know, "We've got some big client wins." We have a lot of success early on- There you are. ... so we all go out as a team, we spend a lot of time together having meals, and it is, uh, generally at first it's celebrating. Mm-hmm. It's, "This is fantastic." Um, you know, flash- flash forward a year to, a year into the business, when you start to hit them first rocky patches. You can't let other people know that there's a issue with cash flow and that, you know, you're looking tight for wages next month. Um, you can't have that on, you've got to put a straight face on here and, you know, business as usual. Um, but behind that kind of good face, I'm, I'm struggling, really struggling. Um, and- So we're '22 now, right? Ish? '22, yeah. Yep. And the celebrations continue, because there's still success, but every single time of these celebrations and partying, I'm drinking to excess. I'm doing drugs because, you know, we've got spending to- You've got the cash. I've got the cash. It's, it's, it's normal. Mm-hmm. Um, but I'm doing it to mask how I feel. I'm doing it to escape. I'm getting away from the, the stresses, the anxieties of what the real, real picture is. And it's almost this, this oxymoron of we are celebrating, everyone, all the staff, all the team, we're celebrating because we've just done something spectacular, but I know deep down that things are not rosy. Mm-hmm. So I'm yay, happy, and then I'm- On the outside? ... on the outside, but- And then kind of allowing the, the substances to carry that through- To carry that. ... and let them play the role? Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, be that person. Um, and that continues for a bit. Uh- How are you, how were you able to function at work? 'Cause it's- It's, it's not bad at this point. Okay. It's not bad. It's, it's no different than what the everyone else would be doing. It's just the nights out, it's the same, it's the same. Mm-hmm. It's... But I'm starting to feel that I'm becoming reliant on that lifestyle. Um, and that's when I, um, um, started to feel something. No, just my whole life would start turning into that kind of thing. Um, I met... Got a girlfriend who was really bad for me. Really bad for me. She created this picture that social shame was, was wrong and that, you know, me and her were gonna have, live a healthy life and that. It was just a horrible relationship. Mm-hmm. Um, and w- stresses at work get a little... Not the stresses, but the situation I work is a little bit tighter, more responsibility, more people join, the numbers we start talking are bigger. You know, we're talking million pound contracts, we're talking, you know, a couple of legal battles come our way as well. Mm-hmm. Which is, which is, you know, all lads are up to it. Um, and then, you know, I think I, I'm trying to remember how old am I? 24, yeah. So, um, there's a kind of a three-month period where I break up this girl because, and I get rid of her, um, and then the next three months is where it deteriorates for me. Mm-hmm. I, um, I started drinking on weekdays. That's when... And my... I always drank wine, so red wine. So I'd, I'd ha- I'd come home and have a glass of wine, you know. It became

Dominic McGregor 27:57 my reward for a hard day. I'd have a glass of wine and it got to a point where the minute alcohol passed my lips, it would be a bottle, it'd be two bottles, it wouldn't stop. Yep. And that would be on a weekday. And I'd get up and I'd go... And a couple of things happened that really hit me hard. Um, so it was Thursday night, we went to a neighborhood opening here. Mm-hmm. It was a good night. Yeah. Um, I got absolutely off my head. Um, and it was a Thursday. And I go home and I fall down the hill at my house and break my ankle. And so Wednesday, Wednes- then it's a Friday morning and I'm in hospital, sat, sat there in A&E, shit's going on at work, I'm like, "What the hell am I doing this?" Yep. "What the fuck am I doing this for?" Um, that's, that was like strike one. Strike... And then, like, strike two, um, well, it was my birthday. Right. So I'm 23. Mm-hmm. My birthday, I go out, uh, with everyone, it's great. It's gonna be a heavy one. Heavy one, obviously. Yep. But the day afterwards, which is my actual birthday, that's when I out. I spent my, my 23rd birthday locked in a dark room watching a movie. Hating life. Hating life. Everyone was like, "Let's go for a meal, it's your birthday. Come on, let's go." I'm just, "No, I'm gonna stay here." I spent a whole day in a dark room on my birthday. Yep. And I'm thinking about everything, thinking about my life. And that's when I gave up substances. I was like, "Okay, it's drugs. It has to be drugs, you know. I'm... I can't, I can't be like this on weekends. This is ruining my... This is ru-" So I think, "You know, I'll be fine." So I do, I do six month- six weeks without any, any drugs. And then, uh- But still drinking? Still drinking, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then I go to the races and have a great day, honestly, a really good day. I'm a little bit more happy, um, but I come back home at like 6:00 PM, you know, o- off my head. Yep. I'd been invited there by a friend in a sponsor's box, so I've got limited alcohol. All day. All day. (laughs) And it's a nice day, and I've still got the problem where if I, I touch alcohol, I won't stop drinking. I'll always- Yep. I'll always have one in my hand. And, um, I... My behavior that day was, um, I got thrown out of Piccolinos in Old Village for stealing a bottle of wine from someone's table and shouting abuse at people. Wow. It was... It was a, a different person. Yeah. And, um, I said some mean things to, some ha- some bad things to a good friend of mine. Yep. And it was the first time I'd ever hurt somebody else. Yep. And the minute I hurt somebody else, I knew I needed to stop because I'm... That's not me. Yep. I could deal with hurting myself. I was beating myself up- Mm-hmm. ... and that I enjoyed that a little bit because it was punishing myself. A catharsis almost? Yeah. But I couldn't deal with that hurting somebody else.... I would, I would, I only got run over by a car once, you know, a couple of other things, and I really, really jumped when I was drunk. But I could deal with that because it was me.

Chris Williamson 30:42 It's you.

Dominic McGregor 30:42 It was me. But the minute it moved into me doing damage to someone I cared about, um, I knew I had to stop. And then I woke up that day, had a very, very frank conversation with Steve, who wasn't there that day, but heard about it, and I said that "I'm gonna stop. I'm not gonna drink again."

Chris Williamson 31:01 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 31:02 "Never gonna drink again."

Chris Williamson 31:03 So how long sober are you now?

Dominic McGregor 31:07 Um, 20 months.

Chris Williamson 31:08 20 months?

Dominic McGregor 31:09 20 months, yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:10 From that day?

Dominic McGregor 31:11 From that day. Never gone back.

Chris Williamson 31:12 Cold turkey?

Dominic McGregor 31:13 Cold turkey.

Chris Williamson 31:14 And what was it like the first couple of weeks?

Dominic McGregor 31:18 It's tough, because you change your life. It's not, it's not because of the alcohol. The first ... I always think this is funny, the first weekend I woke up hungover.

Chris Williamson 31:26 (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 31:26 I didn't go out ... My body, my body would take, needs to recover is ... So it was, it's the problem with binge drinking, your body gets used to this shock in its system every five days.

Chris Williamson 31:37 Yup.

Dominic McGregor 31:37 You know, it's, um, it's a functioning organism. It's used to repetitiveness.

Chris Williamson 31:41 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 31:42 It, I woke up, I woke up hungover because my body was, it goes dehydrated because it was probably producing more, um, things in the liver, pancreas, to break down the alcohol, and it-

Chris Williamson 31:51 It wasn't there.

Dominic McGregor 31:52 ... it wasn't there.

Chris Williamson 31:53 (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 31:53 It's just like, "What? You all right, Dom?"

Chris Williamson 31:54 "What's going on?"

Dominic McGregor 31:55 "What's going on?"

Chris Williamson 31:55 "Yeah, we need some wine."

Dominic McGregor 31:56 "Yeah, we need some wine." Um, so that was weird. So the first weekend I felt hungover. So you don't, I didn't feel the benefits. It wasn't until ... And this is my problem with dry, dry January, you don't feel the benefits until like Week 6.

Chris Williamson 32:07 Yup.

Dominic McGregor 32:08 So it's ... Dry January's great, but the real benefits don't come till afterwards.

Chris Williamson 32:11 Kick in afterwards. Okay.

Dominic McGregor 32:12 Exactly. Um, it felt difficult because I had to change my entire lifestyle. It wasn't the alcohol, it was my lifestyle. I had to remove myself.

Chris Williamson 32:21 We've taken it far beyond social drinking here, haven't you?

Dominic McGregor 32:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:23 This is habitual, needing drinking.

Dominic McGregor 32:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:26 Jordan Peterson makes a really interesting quote about people that have got substance abuse addiction, and he says that the addiction isn't a problem, a serious problem, until you need to take the substance to deal with the withdrawals from the substance.

Dominic McGregor 32:39 Yup. Yup.

Chris Williamson 32:40 And until you take ...

Dominic McGregor 32:41 And that's-

Chris Williamson 32:41 Until you're drinking to cure a hangover, because you're always hungover-

Dominic McGregor 32:45 Yup.

Chris Williamson 32:45 ... you're kind of in a different realm, and as soon as you cross that line, I think-

Dominic McGregor 32:50 And that, and that's what, um, my weekend was. 'Cause I, someone broke it down to me. Friday, my body used to get ready, I used to feel getting ready for it to be ... This is, honestly, it used to feel like it was getting ready-

Chris Williamson 33:01 On a seven-day cycle. (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 33:02 It is, getting ready for alcohol to be in it. So I'd get this, like, natural high come Friday, like 3:00, where I'd get energy and-

Chris Williamson 33:09 'Cause it knows that it's got the wine coming, yeah.

Dominic McGregor 33:11 It knows, yeah, it knows it's got everything coming for it.

Chris Williamson 33:13 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 33:13 So 3:00, I'd be like, "Yeah, come on," you know, "Feeling it."

Chris Williamson 33:17 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 33:17 Just kind of like ... And, 'cause my mind knows I'm away f- on, on the end of the week, I'm away from the stress, I can, I don't have to reply to e- emails or something for a couple of days.

Chris Williamson 33:25 Yup.

Dominic McGregor 33:25 So my body gets excited. So that's Friday, yeah? That's Friday, like, 3:00, so your mind's out of work, your mind's already somewhere else. You've got, you've got a Friday, Saturday written off, you can't do ... during the day.

Chris Williamson 33:35 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 33:36 You've got a Saturday. So for Sunday, you're recovering from sun- you're recovering from Saturday and, um-

Chris Williamson 33:41 Friday.

Dominic McGregor 33:41 ... Friday. And then, do you know what? I was seeing this girl, and do you know what we did, we invented? Tequila Sundays.

Chris Williamson 33:46 Fantastic.

Dominic McGregor 33:47 Fantastic. So we had a couple of tequila Sundays.

Chris Williamson 33:49 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 33:49 So you get up-

Chris Williamson 33:50 And that'll fix the hangover-

Dominic McGregor 33:50 And that'll fix-

Chris Williamson 33:51 ... or at least taper it off a little bit.

Dominic McGregor 33:52 Exactly. So we had a couple of drinks on the night together.

Chris Williamson 33:54 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 33:55 And that, then it's Monday. Monday, you're recovering.

Chris Williamson 33:59 Monday's tough, so you gotta have a glass of wine at the end of the day-

Dominic McGregor 34:01 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 34:01 ... 'cause you got through a day hungover.

Dominic McGregor 34:03 Exactly. And then, you know, maybe, maybe not Tuesday or Wednesday because you're a little bit fresher.

Chris Williamson 34:10 (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 34:10 And then Thursday-

Chris Williamson 34:11 You wind up, you're winding back up for the weekend.

Dominic McGregor 34:12 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 34:14 It's interesting. It's really interesting. I think that it'll be very enlightening for people to hear someone who has, from the outside looking in, definitely made it up the dominance hierarchy-

Dominic McGregor 34:22 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:22 ... has got an awful lot going for them, but has struggled with something that most people elect to do and find-

Dominic McGregor 34:30 Yup.

Chris Williamson 34:30 ... uh, find enjoyable. And I think one of the key, one of the key problems when you're talking about sobriety, or when you're talking about trying to control alcohol, is that every drink that you have s- makes a subsequent drink more difficult to not have.

Dominic McGregor 34:45 Yup. Yup.

Chris Williamson 34:46 It's like a feedback loop.

Dominic McGregor 34:47 Yup.

Chris Williamson 34:47 You have one, and your inhibitions are lower, and then you have another, and your inhibitions are lower.

Dominic McGregor 34:52 Yup.

Chris Williamson 34:52 And then before, before long, you're like, "Oh, well," like, "what's, what's getting a bottle of wine?"

Dominic McGregor 34:57 Yup.

Chris Williamson 34:58 And if it's y- you know, you, you're on a night out, what's getting a bag of drugs in?

Dominic McGregor 35:02 Yup.

Chris Williamson 35:02 What's getting this, what's getting that, and do you know what I mean? And then who says no to the afterparty at your house? Who says no to telling your friends something that's hurtful, or doing whatever? The inhibitions just continue to get broken down.

Dominic McGregor 35:12 And then a, and then you also go into the s- the bad food.

Chris Williamson 35:15 Yup.

Dominic McGregor 35:16 And that's a whole nother kettle of fish.

Chris Williamson 35:18 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 35:18 Because you just, then you just f- you look at, you, what you put, you know, and, and one of the guys said it here, is your brain cells are made of every single thing that you put into your mouth.

Chris Williamson 35:26 Yeah. Yeah, that's really true. (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 35:27 Your brain cell, yeah. The first time you've heard that?

Chris Williamson 35:29 Yeah. (laughs) That's really true.

Dominic McGregor 35:30 That's gonna change your mind on things. But I'm like, "Okay, everything that goes into my mouth makes my brain. Okay." And then you look at-

Chris Williamson 35:36 What's my brain built on?

Dominic McGregor 35:37 My brain-

Chris Williamson 35:38 Domino, Dominoes and tequila.

Dominic McGregor 35:39 Dominoes and tequila. Oh, God.

Chris Williamson 35:41 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 35:42 That's gonna be-

Chris Williamson 35:42 What sort of, what sort of life's that going to be? I think it's really interesting, man. It's r- it's very, very, uh, insightful to hear from someone, 'cause you hear these stories of, like, child prodigies and, you know-

Dominic McGregor 35:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:51 ... Macaulay Culkin-esque characters-

Dominic McGregor 35:53 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 35:53 ... that have got too much too soon.

Dominic McGregor 35:54 Yup.

Chris Williamson 35:55 Uh, but it's very interesting to hear it firsthand from somebody who definitely did have that.

Dominic McGregor 36:00 Yup.

Chris Williamson 36:00 And I think that alcoholism is usually perceived by people to be ... Or a problem with alcohol is usually perceived by people to be a mid-50s guy with a bottle of Scotch whiskey-

Dominic McGregor 36:14 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:15 ... laid on his couch-

Dominic McGregor 36:16 Yup.

Chris Williamson 36:16 ... sipping it from that. He's unemployed, he's on benefits, he's this, that, and the other. But it's not. A problem with alcohol is that you cannot deal with what alcohol does to you, in your body.

Dominic McGregor 36:26 Yup.

Chris Williamson 36:26 If you have ... I've got a number of friends that range from introvert to extrovert, from depressive to happy, and the guys that are depressed, or that have a depressive personality-... they need to restrict their drinking.

Dominic McGregor 36:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:38 100%. Because-

Dominic McGregor 36:39 Is that just you saying that they need to?

Chris Williamson 36:41 Well, it's me.

Dominic McGregor 36:42 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:42 It's me. That's me speaking from personal-

Dominic McGregor 36:43 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:44 ... personal experience. I do not deal well with hangovers.

Dominic McGregor 36:47 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:48 And then, if you throw into that misc- i- mix, if one of your personality traits is being industrious, and you've got high goals and you have high standards for yourself, they say that, um, the ultimate pain is when the person you are meets the person you could've been.

Dominic McGregor 37:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:02 And that that's the difference in pain of what you feel.

Dominic McGregor 37:04 Yep.

Chris Williamson 37:05 Like, if you set your goals very, very high, and then you start to bring yourself down and your performance suffers, performance at work, performance in relationships, performance with everything. If you do that to yourself, you're electing to make yourself slower.

Dominic McGregor 37:18 Yep.

Chris Williamson 37:19 And one of the mad things, I always use this example, especially about people that use, like, that use really, really heavy drugs, so if you talk about pills or MDMA, they kind of wash a sequence o- o- a night's experience with the same flavor. So you hear guys will go out and they'll go on a stag do and they go Vegas. They travel halfway around the world to go to Vegas and they get absolutely blitzed, out of their mind, can't remember half the night, and then they'll take a drug that is so immersive that they literally could've gone down the road to the pub-

Dominic McGregor 37:49 Yep.

Chris Williamson 37:49 ... and had the same experience.

Dominic McGregor 37:50 Yep.

Chris Williamson 37:50 The only difference that you choose when you go away on holiday and you decide to fill yourself full of alcohol and drugs, is, "What environment do I want to have my comedown and hangover in?"

Dominic McGregor 37:59 Yep.

Chris Williamson 38:00 That's the only thing that you're changing.

Dominic McGregor 38:01 Yep. Completely. Completely. And you know what? I had the perfect comedown environment. I had a dark room. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 38:09 (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 38:09 I was just... It was like, it was like a cinema.

Chris Williamson 38:10 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 38:10 It was a cinema room. A dark room, full of snacks.

Chris Williamson 38:13 The blackout blinds. The-

Dominic McGregor 38:14 Blackout everything, honestly. And it would be pitch black. So, you know, that's the dream.

Chris Williamson 38:18 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 38:18 And I used to, I used to remember planning my Sundays.

Chris Williamson 38:22 Yep.

Dominic McGregor 38:22 I'd order Domino's. The, this, this, the weekend are r- revolved around the comedowns. You know, this is the, this is the treat for myself and mentally rewarding yourself with a comedown, wh- how is that ever gonna get you to, to where you want to be? Um, and you're completely right in the point that when you get to, when you get to, like, the pain of staying the same, you know, you're sat there looking like, "This isn't me. This isn't who I want to be."

Chris Williamson 38:46 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 38:46 "I don't want to be this person in five years. The person I want to be in five years is doing da, da, da, da, da. I need to do something, I need to make a change."

Chris Williamson 38:55 Yeah. I mean, uh, there's absolutely some people who don't have a problem with substances. I have a, I have, I'm a club promoter, right?

Dominic McGregor 39:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:02 That's what I do for a living. Like, we see this, we see every single-

Dominic McGregor 39:06 Person.

Chris Williamson 39:07 ... strata.

Dominic McGregor 39:07 Can you, can you see the people who are suffering? Are T-

Chris Williamson 39:11 Not on a night out. Not on a night out, no. Because everyone on a, on a night out, again, you've got alcohol brain. The guys that are on a night out, even the ones that have got a depressive personality, or the ones that are suffering, it needs to be chronic, like really severe-

Dominic McGregor 39:24 Yep.

Chris Williamson 39:24 ... for someone to be in the middle of a night out ten beers deep and still not happy.

Dominic McGregor 39:30 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:30 Because, again, the alcohol and the drugs, they wash the environment-

Dominic McGregor 39:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:33 ... with the rose-tinted colored glasses.

Dominic McGregor 39:35 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 39:35 And then everyone's having a good time. And they're the life and soul of the party. But a lot of the time, it's the people. If you want to try and identify the people that are struggling the most with the substances, look at the ones that are the most outgoing on a night out.

Dominic McGregor 39:44 Yeah, yeah. T- you know, do you know, my, mine got bad when I started just to drink alone.

Chris Williamson 39:50 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 39:50 That was when, that's when I knew. When I sat there. I, I had a couple of nights where I was just like... I remember, because you remember drinking a couple of bottles of wine at home alone on Saturday, 'cause I wasn't going out, I don't know why.

Chris Williamson 40:03 Yep.

Dominic McGregor 40:03 And I lived 45 minutes away and I text a friend to ask him if he can bring some coke-

Chris Williamson 40:09 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 40:09 ... to the house.

Chris Williamson 40:11 An hour away.

Dominic McGregor 40:11 An hour away.

Chris Williamson 40:13 On your own.

Dominic McGregor 40:14 On my own.

Chris Williamson 40:14 So you can just rack up lines and sneak away.

Dominic McGregor 40:16 Yeah. Can you imagine that?

Chris Williamson 40:16 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 40:17 And that's... And I was like-

Chris Williamson 40:18 Man, I, do you know what it is? Like I say, there, there's absolutely people for whom substances aren't a problem. I have a wide range of friends who party to different, differing degrees.

Dominic McGregor 40:29 Yep.

Chris Williamson 40:30 People who go out and are sober because they choose to, people who go out and sober, that are sober consciously 'cause they know it's bad for them, people who drink, and people who party to excess. And within each of those categories, you have people who are able to recover from it, and for whom it is absolutely fine.

Dominic McGregor 40:45 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:46 But, you know if you're one of those people, you know if you're not. You absolutely know, for me, if you are waking up the next day, you might not know it's because of the alcohol, but if you're waking up the next day and you feel worse than a hangover should make you feel, and you know what the ca- I think you, you know how a hangover should be.

Dominic McGregor 41:04 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 41:05 But if you start becoming self-referential-

Dominic McGregor 41:06 Yep.

Chris Williamson 41:07 ... and if you can't get out of bed for the day, and if you start thinking that, "I'm not actualizing my potential," all the things that you've identified, that's, you know, that's a, that's a highlight for it.

Dominic McGregor 41:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:17 So talk to me about what sobriety's done.

Dominic McGregor 41:19 God, what hasn't it done? Um, lot, I've lost about three and a half stone.

Chris Williamson 41:25 Oh (laughs) .

Dominic McGregor 41:25 Have you seen a picture? Have you seen a picture?

Chris Williamson 41:26 No (laughs) .

Dominic McGregor 41:27 I'll show you one. I got up.

Chris Williamson 41:28 I'll put it up on the screen.

Dominic McGregor 41:29 I'll put it up on the screen but this is, this is old.

Chris Williamson 41:32 Three and a half stone, so that's like, what, like, 18 kilos? 15 kilos? Something like that.

Dominic McGregor 41:36 21.

Chris Williamson 41:37 21 kilos?

Dominic McGregor 41:38 Yeah. I was, uh, so that, that's me.

Chris Williamson 41:43 Uh-huh.

Dominic McGregor 41:43 That's me.

Chris Williamson 41:44 Oh wow, that photo looks like it's been stretched.

Dominic McGregor 41:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:48 That photo looks like it's been stretched in widescreen.

Dominic McGregor 41:50 And then-

Chris Williamson 41:50 But it's not, you're just massive.

Dominic McGregor 41:52 Just massive.

Chris Williamson 41:52 (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 41:52 And I'll show you, I'll show you from side profile.

Chris Williamson 41:54 (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 41:56 So this was me.

Chris Williamson 41:57 You're completely spherical.

Dominic McGregor 41:58 I know. I know. Bad, isn't it?

Chris Williamson 42:02 It's crazy. Absolutely crazy.

Dominic McGregor 42:07 And that one there.

Chris Williamson 42:09 Oh, wow. Yeah, that's, um, that's a different guy to the one that I'm looking at at the moment. Yeah. (laughs) That's a different shaped face.

Dominic McGregor 42:17 Different shaped face.

Chris Williamson 42:17 You've got a completely round face.

Dominic McGregor 42:19 My hair's different as well.

Chris Williamson 42:19 Yeah, for sure. So, you take on sobriety and then-

Dominic McGregor 42:24 I get time.

Chris Williamson 42:24 ... what, what were the changes that you made?

Dominic McGregor 42:25 I get time. Uh, I, I, I, I acquired myself a lot of sp- a lot more time. Um-

Chris Williamson 42:30 Well, you're not, you're not spending it getting-

Dominic McGregor 42:32 Not spending it getting-

Chris Williamson 42:32 ... getting smashed or coming down.

Dominic McGregor 42:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:34 It's, it's, to interject at that point, on the time thing-Even if ... Anyone that's listening, even if you think that maybe you don't have a problem in terms of being self-referential with your, um, own opinions on your-

Dominic McGregor 42:45 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:45 ... own substance use-

Dominic McGregor 42:46 Yes.

Chris Williamson 42:46 ... if you look at your year, time's the only thing we can't get back, right?

Dominic McGregor 42:49 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:50 If you were to look at your year as a set of year-end accounts for a company-

Dominic McGregor 42:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:53 ... and you wanted to maximize profitability, which would be available time to do with what you value-

Dominic McGregor 42:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:58 ... what you would do is, you would look at the biggest costs that you could get rid of on that time. And if you look through that and every single week you go, your accountant looks at you and he says, "What's, what's between 7:00 AM and 4:00 PM every Saturday, you do fuck all. And then on a Sunday you're working at o- at 50% capacity, and then on a Monday you're still only at 80% capacity."

Dominic McGregor 43:23 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 43:23 "What the fuck are you doing?" And you think, "Right, okay, even if I don't have a problem with it, just from a pure time efficiency perspective, if I want to maximize my experience of life in the mere 80 years that we've got on this planet, I need to make sure that I'm not spasticating myself-"

Dominic McGregor 43:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 43:38 "... on a weekly basis." (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 43:39 And it's the problem there, the thing is, it's the routine, is if you do it every week.

Chris Williamson 43:43 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 43:43 That's when it starts to become like ques- ... That's when I think someone should question themselves because there's so much many, so much more things to do out there.

Chris Williamson 43:50 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 43:50 You know, we do, we, we do live busy lives, you know, we do work hard, everyone does work hard. Um, so having that sense of doing something you want to do-

Chris Williamson 44:00 Yes.

Dominic McGregor 44:00 ... and it's n- ... Despite what people think, it's not going out getting me- messed up with their friends all the time. There's other things they will find that they enjoy.

Chris Williamson 44:07 Absolutely.

Dominic McGregor 44:07 So I found that I love running, I love working out. Uh-

Chris Williamson 44:12 Who'd have known that the guy in those photos loved running?

Dominic McGregor 44:14 Honestly.

Chris Williamson 44:15 That genuinely doesn't look like you could have ran a Burger King and back.

Dominic McGregor 44:17 I would've, I would've ran to Burger King.

Chris Williamson 44:19 (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 44:19 I would've ran to Burger King.

Chris Williamson 44:20 Would've ran to Burger King, you're off license at the dealers-.

Dominic McGregor 44:22 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 44:22 That was the only three places you could.

Dominic McGregor 44:22 They're the only places I'd have gone to.

Chris Williamson 44:24 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 44:24 Um, so found out I love wo- ... I loved running. I got a, um, I guess I replaced one addiction with another, but I love how running made, made me feel.

Chris Williamson 44:33 That runner's high, man.

Dominic McGregor 44:34 Yeah, it's true. Runner's high is so true. Um, 'cause you, it is an element that you're running away from your problems as well.

Chris Williamson 44:40 A little bit.

Dominic McGregor 44:40 A little bit. Um-

Chris Williamson 44:41 But defeating them as well with every step.

Dominic McGregor 44:42 Exactly. So you've got the positives as well. Um, so I fell in love with that, um, fell in love with the outdoors just in general, being outdoors, being, being around. Um, and then, you know, other things like wr- writing, writing. I've, I've got a blog, um, hashtag ad. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 44:59 Yes. (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 45:00 Check it out.

Chris Williamson 45:01 Get it in there, it's tee, teetotalrunner.com, right?

Dominic McGregor 45:04 Yeah. Uh, I just talk about what I do and then the running. The running side of things has taken me all over the world, I wanted to go see some places with it. So I'm going to Lisbon next weekend to do a...

Chris Williamson 45:13 How many, how many marathons have you got planned? Is it like 10?

Dominic McGregor 45:15 I've go- I've got ... I'm doing 12 runs, one a, one a month, building up different sizes.

Chris Williamson 45:21 Like 5K, 10K?

Dominic McGregor 45:22 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm doing a half marathon next month in, next week in Lisbon.

Chris Williamson 45:26 Okay.

Dominic McGregor 45:26 Then I'm doing one in Alloa, in Scotland, 'cause I'm gonna go up to Edinburgh. Great-

Chris Williamson 45:29 That's gonna be cold.

Dominic McGregor 45:30 That's gonna be really cold.

Chris Williamson 45:31 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 45:31 And then I'm doing the London Marathon in April.

Chris Williamson 45:34 Nice.

Dominic McGregor 45:34 And then I'm doing Ironman.

Chris Williamson 45:36 No way.

Dominic McGregor 45:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:37 Where's the Ironman?

Dominic McGregor 45:38 Barcelona.

Chris Williamson 45:39 That's sick. That's the worst place there's-

Dominic McGregor 45:40 Just, just, just for the weather.

Chris Williamson 45:41 Worst place. Yeah, for sure.

Dominic McGregor 45:42 (laughs) So swim- so it's a couple, bit of a swim, bit of a bike ride, bit of a run.

Chris Williamson 45:45 That's amazing.

Dominic McGregor 45:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:46 But I mean, (sighs) you know, like I say, there will definitely be people listening to this that think, "That's not me. Like, I don't have a problem with, with substances. I like to go out with my friends."

Dominic McGregor 45:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 45:54 "And that for me is what I want to do in my weekends." And that's sweet, but I said during a, a podcast that I did with the CrossFit guys that I think that around about 25, there's like a fitness menopause-

Dominic McGregor 46:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:06 ... that occurs.

Dominic McGregor 46:07 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:07 Where you stop being concerned, if you've been like a gym bro for a while, you stop being concerned with leanness at all costs.

Dominic McGregor 46:12 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:13 And you start to realize you're chronically aware of your own mortality as you a- as you approach 30.

Dominic McGregor 46:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:18 And you think, "I need to be functional. I have to be able to put my, put my socks on and get up a set of stairs without-"

Dominic McGregor 46:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:22 "... getting out of breath." So you start to think about more functional stuff with that. And I think that the same, you can go through a party menopause as well.

Dominic McGregor 46:29 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:29 And it's delivered at varying ages, you know?

Dominic McGregor 46:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:32 You've, you've maybe had an early indoctrination.

Dominic McGregor 46:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:35 You went straight to pro, you went straight to pro level-

Dominic McGregor 46:37 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 46:37 ... at 5:00, didn't you?

Dominic McGregor 46:38 Yeah, I kind of, yeah, I went from student to professional, yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:42 Yeah, professional j-

Dominic McGregor 46:43 Missed out everything in between, I didn't.

Chris Williamson 46:44 Yeah, no, there was no club games.

Dominic McGregor 46:46 No.

Chris Williamson 46:46 You went straight to World Cup.

Dominic McGregor 46:47 Straight, yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 46:48 Um, and, you know, I think with that as well, people realize ... And like for some people it's like being in a relationship, right? Like, that kind of opens people's eyes 'cause the girlfriend doesn't want you going out and getting-

Dominic McGregor 46:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:58 ... repped all the time.

Dominic McGregor 46:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:59 When the boyfriend feels uncomfortable about you being in clubs with other guys.

Dominic McGregor 47:02 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:02 Or just generally you wanna spend time together 'cause you've got someone around.

Dominic McGregor 47:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:05 But even without that, I think that it is really important for people to realize that there's more to life than going out and getting leathered.

Dominic McGregor 47:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:13 And, you know, I'm saying this from, I'm the guy that makes his-

Dominic McGregor 47:16 No, this-

Chris Williamson 47:16 ... living off the back of this.

Dominic McGregor 47:17 Yeah. You're having a go at me for social media and you'll be-

Chris Williamson 47:19 Oh, no, no, don't look at me. Well we-

Dominic McGregor 47:20 ... shoveling people into clubs every weekend.

Chris Williamson 47:22 (laughs) What can I say? It's, you know, my business partner of 10 years, I had, I had a chat with him the other day and he was talking about he'd gone, gone to see one of his friends who was in rehab-

Dominic McGregor 47:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:31 ... who is 44 now. And he was thinking to himself at the time like, "What is it that we're doing to people when we get them to go out on a night out?" Like, but what you ... You hit the nail on the head, that the problem is going out and getting blitzed every weekend.

Dominic McGregor 47:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:46 Some people can go out and they can have ... I've got a number of friends that can do it that are in their, their division two and division three partiers. And they're able to go out, they can do a five-pint night. They can wake up the next morning and maybe they shouldn't drive, but after they've had a bacon sandwich-

Dominic McGregor 48:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:02 ... they're sweet to go.

Dominic McGregor 48:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:03 Do you know what I mean?

Dominic McGregor 48:04 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:04 And that's fine.

Dominic McGregor 48:05 A- and I think it's about everyone really needs to ask themselves their relationship with alcohol. Wh- do they think it's healthy?

Chris Williamson 48:11 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 48:11 Um, it's a hard question to ask yourself because you don't, never want to self-analyze negatively. Um-

Chris Williamson 48:17 100%.

Dominic McGregor 48:18 Uh, I do think that there is a subculture. This is, this is my, this is my thinking is that there is a, the vegan trend that's come up in the last couple of years-

Chris Williamson 48:26 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 48:26 ... has been sort of really grassroots. It really, um, is r- ran by the youth people.

Chris Williamson 48:31 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 48:32 Ran by the youth who really are, I guess, passionate about animal protection, but also what being a vegan does for you.

Chris Williamson 48:38 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 48:38 You know, there's a lot of studies around-

Chris Williamson 48:40 Are you vegan?

Dominic McGregor 48:40 No, not yet.

Chris Williamson 48:41 All right.

Dominic McGregor 48:41 I may, I may end up being a vegan.

Chris Williamson 48:43 No, I'm not.

Dominic McGregor 48:43 (laughs) ... vegetarian?

Chris Williamson 48:44 No, neither. I've tried, I mean, I'm, uh, aware that I definitely don't eat anywhere n- enough vegetables.

Dominic McGregor 48:49 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 48:49 So I need t- I need to push that. One of my friends put an interesting Facebook status up the other day talking about, um, it's trendy to be vegan at the moment, right?

Dominic McGregor 48:56 It is, yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:57 It is really, really trendy. But the same people that are gi- giving someone grief for wearing a Canada Goose jacket will also be the same one that will spend a 100 quid on two bags of coke that's been done off the back of dead children in Colombia.

Dominic McGregor 49:09 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:09 You know? Gang wars and all the rest of the stuff that get your, get those drugs up your nose-

Dominic McGregor 49:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:14 ... are just as damaging and to a lot more sentient beings than the coyote that's died to make a jacket-

Dominic McGregor 49:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:21 ... or whatever it might be. So, but, again, with that, what are people doing? They're being very selective about what they want to be self-referential about.

Dominic McGregor 49:28 Exactly. And also it works on social media for how they're perceived.

Chris Williamson 49:31 Oh, absolutely. The self-branding of that's fine.

Dominic McGregor 49:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:34 You're never gonna put up a video of you snorting a line-

Dominic McGregor 49:36 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 49:36 ... but you can definitely put up a video of you saying that it's bad to-

Dominic McGregor 49:39 Yep.

Chris Williamson 49:39 ... uh, share a video of someone-

Dominic McGregor 49:41 Yep.

Chris Williamson 49:41 ... trapping a coyote for a jacket.

Dominic McGregor 49:42 Yep. But I, I think, I thinks, I think the Tea Tar also movement will, will come soon.

Chris Williamson 49:49 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 49:49 I think there'll be a rise in young people w- which we've already see- seen at universities, there's actually a decrease in the amount of time students go out, mainly because of money.

Chris Williamson 49:58 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 49:59 But I think there'll be, um, a little bit more education around the space. I think you'll have generations of young people who choose not to drink.

Chris Williamson 50:06 I agree. Well, I mean, my master's dissertation was the effectiveness of anti-alcohol advertising on students at Newcastle.

Dominic McGregor 50:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 50:12 And it basically found that none of it was.

Dominic McGregor 50:15 No.

Chris Williamson 50:15 That people wear the crazy stories as a badge of honor. They literally say, like, "How was your night out?" "Man, it was crazy. I woke up in hospital."

Dominic McGregor 50:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 50:24 Hang on. Like, that, uh, just-

Dominic McGregor 50:27 (laughs) Just think about it.

Chris Williamson 50:27 ... just reframe the conversation that you're having there.

Dominic McGregor 50:29 They did the same thing with smoking when the smoking ban came in place.

Chris Williamson 50:32 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 50:32 They, they tried for years and years and years to obviously get people to smoke less, saying how, what it was gonna do to your fingertips, what it's gonna do to your hair. But it wasn't until smoking was banned in clubs, they had to go outside to smoke, that it became uncool-

Chris Williamson 50:45 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 50:45 ... and smoking stopped.

Chris Williamson 50:46 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 50:47 Because suddenly this is barrier to entry, you've gotta go outside and leave the pie, so people stopped smoking.

Chris Williamson 50:52 Yep. It's interesting, I think what's specifically interesting about this conversation is that we've got two people coming at sobriety from opposite ends of the spectrum.

Dominic McGregor 51:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 51:01 So for the people that don't know, I did six months sober last year, which began December 2016 and finished in May 2017. And then I did six months of partying again, and drinking. But after my six months of sobriety, which I only did to see if I could do it-

Dominic McGregor 51:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 51:17 ... I, I knew that I, based on the time, availability, uh, set of accounts that I came up with, I knew that if I wanted to be really successful for a period-

Dominic McGregor 51:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:26 ... and I had some plans, things that I wanted to achieve, I needed to get some more time out, I needed to squeeze more time out of my day. And that sobriety enabled me to do that. But we're coming at it from someone who has used sobriety to stop an addiction or to stop a habitual, um, problem with substances, and then someone who's coming from it who I wouldn't have classed myself as having a problem with alcohol, I'd have only drank maybe once every two weeks.

Dominic McGregor 51:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 51:55 But the times that I did, it wasn't good for me.

Dominic McGregor 51:57 Yep.

Chris Williamson 51:58 So, I guess you've got a fairly wide spectrum-

Dominic McGregor 52:00 Spectrum.

Chris Williamson 52:00 ... of people there that are covered.

Dominic McGregor 52:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:02 That, for whom sobriety ... So you were talking, really interesting what you touched on about the six-week point. So I didn't track it at the time, I should have written a diary and I didn't, about what the sobriety was doing to me-

Dominic McGregor 52:13 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 52:13 ... because I think I guess a lot of what sobriety for you would've meant would've been not doing negative things before they start to do positive things.

Dominic McGregor 52:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:22 Whereas for me, I was kind of starting, I guess, from a baseline of okay day to day, and then improving from there.

Dominic McGregor 52:29 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:29 But I w- I've always said to my friends that has talked to me about it, after about two months, my mental agility-

Dominic McGregor 52:34 Oh.

Chris Williamson 52:34 ... and my verbal dexterity just went through the roof.

Dominic McGregor 52:36 It's ridiculous, yeah. And on that, on that point, um, y- it's, it's, think, uh, people, everyone listening, I think it's f- think deeply about when was the last time you can picture yourself going a month without alcohol?

Chris Williamson 52:52 (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 52:53 From being 16 years old.

Chris Williamson 52:55 I use this story all the time.

Dominic McGregor 52:56 You can't. I couldn't. I couldn't. You know, you do, you do a dry-

Chris Williamson 52:59 It's like... (laughs) Yeah, it is hard.

Dominic McGregor 53:01 If you do a dr- hey, if you do a dry January, okay?

Chris Williamson 53:04 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 53:04 You'll wake up in the ye- new, new year hungover.

Chris Williamson 53:06 (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 53:06 So you won't have alcoholics resistance the second or third.

Chris Williamson 53:08 (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 53:09 And then you know what? You'll give in the last weekend because it's still January. So you only do, like, three, four weeks.

Chris Williamson 53:13 What a way to humble everyone that's just completed dry January. (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 53:16 (laughs) Uh-

Chris Williamson 53:16 It wasn't dry January, it was dry three weeks.

Dominic McGregor 53:18 It's the dry three weeks, you know, got, it was bit of a refresh while you're back into the gym. And it's not long enough to really notice a difference.

Chris Williamson 53:24 No, I agree. I think, uh, six months is a really intimidating amount of time. But for me, the, the changes that it made for me-

Dominic McGregor 53:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 53:31 ... were, were absolutely fantastic. Like, uh, verbal dexterity, mental agility, quality of sleep, um, ability to regulate emotions.

Dominic McGregor 53:38 Yep.

Chris Williamson 53:38 Uh, everything.

Dominic McGregor 53:40 Energy.

Chris Williamson 53:40 Uh, absolutely, yeah. And what it does is I think it, it starts to let you deal with some of the things that are more, um, that are more chronic, that have been around for a little bit longer.

Dominic McGregor 53:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 53:53 The problems that require a deeper look at yourself, things to do with your values-

Dominic McGregor 53:58 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 53:58 ... and whether you're living with virtue, and what, um, what values you want to be cultivating in the long term as a, as a person.

Dominic McGregor 54:05 Yep.

Chris Williamson 54:05 Because it's very difficult to think about, "Am I, am I living a virtuous life that is actuating my potential?" when you're hanging out of your ass, filling your mouth full of Domino's on a Sunday-

Dominic McGregor 54:16 (laughs) it's...

Chris Williamson 54:16 ... or you're waking up with some girl whose name you don't know.

Dominic McGregor 54:18 It's complete, completely true, because the, the questions you ask yourself in them situations are very small. You don't ask yourself big questions.

Chris Williamson 54:24 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 54:24 You know, your... when you're in a state of hungover, your body's telling you, "I need food, I need drink, I need..." It's sudden, short-term-

Chris Williamson 54:32 Very short term, right?

Dominic McGregor 54:33 ... gratification urges, "This is what I need to get over the current situation."

Chris Williamson 54:36 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 54:37 Um, and then, like you say, when you've got a bit of head space and a bit of, um, mental bandwidth to ask yourself these difficult questions. Like, I've never, ever thought of, "What are my values?"... what- what are my values? Someone at... uh, we, I actually did see a therapist for a bit to try and get over it. Uh, and one of the things he ques- he said to me is, "You need to write down your values. Uh, all your actions need to be in line with your values of who you want to be as a person." I was like, "What the hell are my values?"

Chris Williamson 55:03 Haven't got a clue.

Dominic McGregor 55:04 Haven't got a clue.

Chris Williamson 55:05 'Cause it's all been washed under the rug, man. And you're right, like if you're, if you're from 16 and spending time recreationally for you is going out and getting blitzed with your mates-

Dominic McGregor 55:14 Which it is.

Chris Williamson 55:14 ... you don't actually- you don't actually know what life is outside of that.

Dominic McGregor 55:17 No.

Chris Williamson 55:17 And then all that you need to do is add in a little bit of, um, vicariously living your life through other people, through social media-

Dominic McGregor 55:24 Yep.

Chris Williamson 55:24 ... through TV-

Dominic McGregor 55:25 Yep.

Chris Williamson 55:25 ... and all the rest of the stuff, and before you know it, like ...

Dominic McGregor 55:28 You beat yourself up over- over where you are.

Chris Williamson 55:31 Yeah. You- you- you're causing the problem or you're- you're creating, you're building the wall that is so high you can't climb over it anymore-

Dominic McGregor 55:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:38 ... and you want to see the other side.

Dominic McGregor 55:39 Yep.

Chris Williamson 55:40 And I think that that- that level of sort of helplessness or- or just dissatisfaction.

Dominic McGregor 55:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:45 It's just dissatisfaction and I think that it's- it's something that people don't have to deal with and I think that's the- that's the- the key takeaway from this is that you don't have to go out and get absolutely blitzed. Because again, like we say, there's differing leagues of partyer, right?

Dominic McGregor 56:01 Yep. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:02 There's- there's the ones who've gone to the absolute extreme and there's the ones that have, that are able to manage their alcohol use.

Dominic McGregor 56:09 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 56:09 And for the ones that do, then, you know-

Dominic McGregor 56:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:11 ... crack on. Sobriety will help and it will be a really, really good test for you in terms of can you win something, can you win a battle that most people couldn't?

Dominic McGregor 56:21 That's the- that's the big thing there, it's like proving to yourself that you can do something that no- n- not- not 99% of the rest of the population can't. And I think that is a- is a- is a big thing, because it's a sense of achievement. It's not like-

Chris Williamson 56:33 Absolutely.

Dominic McGregor 56:33 ... it's like a- it's real, um ...

Chris Williamson 56:36 It's a badge of honor.

Dominic McGregor 56:36 Yeah. I'm a- it's a badge of h- yeah. Yeah. Not that I work in a hospital, but I'm- I'm sober.

Chris Williamson 56:41 Yep.

Dominic McGregor 56:41 Um, and it- there's an interesting thing. I met a guy who- who I've known for years from York who's probably like, probably the f- well, like the fittest, like best bodied guy-

Chris Williamson 56:52 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 56:53 ... um, apart from Chris (laughs) -

Chris Williamson 56:56 (laughs) Hey.

Dominic McGregor 56:56 ... that I- that I know. Um, he body builds. And I met him on the- like when I must have been like month three into being sober and he was like, "I can't- I could never do what you do."

Chris Williamson 57:06 (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 57:07 I was like for a minute like, no way.

Chris Williamson 57:08 The guy is so disciplined with his fitness.

Dominic McGregor 57:10 This guy is so disciplined in his life, he- he- he looks like a god, he lifts un- ... and you could never do what I do?

Chris Williamson 57:15 He can't get sober.

Dominic McGregor 57:16 That was like, hang on a minute, I'm doing something here that is so far away from norm, but I'm just like, I'm- I'm gonna discover new things that people are- people don't do.

Chris Williamson 57:29 It's really rare for people to take notice of much of what you post online if it isn't something that's really monumental or about your family.

Dominic McGregor 57:36 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:36 Like if it's not, I'm having a kid, I'm getting married, I'm moving away, like for the most part, unless it's something really funny that- that bangs-

Dominic McGregor 57:42 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:42 ... like in, it's like a 300 liker about someone that's parked on your street.

Dominic McGregor 57:45 You've been following my tweets, haven't you? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 57:46 Uh, yeah, I can't say. Uh, yeah, unless it's one of those ones, like you don't and- you don't, people don't come up and speak to you, but f- I only posted about it maybe three or four times last year and the number of people that came up to me, you're right, and said, "Mate, are you s- are you still doing that six months sober thing?" Like, "Yeah." "Fucking hell, like what's going on?"

Dominic McGregor 58:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:03 Like, but it's- it's not that big of a deal. "Mate, I- I don't even know how you do it, you know, it's just like, it's just one of them things, like you've got to, you know, how do you not like ..." And after a while when people say, "Do you want a drink?" And you go, "No." And you can say to them-

Dominic McGregor 58:16 It's great.

Chris Williamson 58:16 ... without it being twatty, you can say-

Dominic McGregor 58:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:17 ... "No, I'm- I'm doing six months sober." Or, "I'm- I'm- I'm doing a period of sobriety." Um, so-

Dominic McGregor 58:22 Uh, and- and on that point as well, the biggest reason why people say they could never do it is because they don't think they could have fun without it. And you're- you're there in a situation where you're still out with people, your friends, you're going out, you- you're actually in the night out, you're out later probably than any- ever before.

Chris Williamson 58:41 (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 58:41 And you're actually having more fun.

Chris Williamson 58:42 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 58:43 And that's like the biggest- the biggest thing I hear from people is, "I can never do it 'cause I feel like I'll be boring and I don't know what my friends will think of me."

Chris Williamson 58:50 So here we go, people use alcohol 100% on a night out to mask the fact that they're not as extroverted as their friends think that they are.

Dominic McGregor 58:58 Yep.

Chris Williamson 58:58 They're- they're- they're worried that they're not as good, so that is the equivalent of taking a performance enhancing drug to be able to perform at an adequate level at your sport of choice.

Dominic McGregor 59:06 Yep.

Chris Williamson 59:06 So if you are on a night out and you don't- you've got approach anxiety as pickup artists sort of call it for going up and speaking to a girl, like I'd remember when I was in uni, I'd be like, oh, like can't go talk to that girl, knock back five Jagerbombs-

Dominic McGregor 59:18 Suddenly.

Chris Williamson 59:19 ... and then you wake up with her the next morning.

Dominic McGregor 59:20 Yep.

Chris Williamson 59:20 'Cause you're like, oh, well, I don't know what I said-

Dominic McGregor 59:22 But it worked.

Chris Williamson 59:22 ... but it got rid of the- the-

Dominic McGregor 59:23 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:23 ... inhibitions got lowered and the approach anxiety went away. And the same thing goes for being with your friends, like there's this funny quote that I know from online that says, "Nothing good ever happens after 2:00 in the morning." And you're like, the last hour of a club night, unless you're in somewhere like that's a late night venue, if you're in a typical club that's 10:00 till 3:00 or 11:00 till 3:00, the final... And I watch it, like I sit and I look, like if you want a bit of advice, leave the club at 2:00 in the morning. Like leave the club at 2:30 in the morning, because nothing good happens in the final half an hour or the final hour. It's people stumbling out, it's issues at the bar, it's people getting in scraps, it's this, that, and the other, like you can have the lion's share of the night with none of the regret the next morning and none of the problems the next morning, and on top of that you can remember it.

Dominic McGregor 1:00:10 Yep. And you know what? If you drive, it's cheaper.

Chris Williamson 1:00:13 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 1:00:13 'Cause you drive there, you drive your friends, drop off, you go when you want to.

Chris Williamson 1:00:16 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 1:00:16 And, you know, I've been out, I go out as much now as I did then-

Chris Williamson 1:00:22 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 1:00:22 ... and I have a better time. And I'm-

Chris Williamson 1:00:23 Sure.

Dominic McGregor 1:00:23 I completely agree with the point at 2:00 (laughs) -

Chris Williamson 1:00:25 (laughs)

Dominic McGregor 1:00:25 ... 'cause there's- there's- there's this moment, right, when you're with your friends, okay, and it's- it's, um, it's normally about 1:30, 2:00 where things deteriorate for them.

Chris Williamson 1:00:35 Yeah.

Dominic McGregor 1:00:35 They go from having normal conversation to just being a mess.

Chris Williamson 1:00:39 Just going off the hook.

Dominic McGregor 1:00:39 And it's- you sit there and you're completely fine, it's like, all right, I'm off.

Chris Williamson 1:00:43 This is a time relief, that's a time relief.

Dominic McGregor 1:00:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:44 That's a calling bell. So here's the- here's the next point, um, we did this discussion once I completed the six months sober-

Dominic McGregor 1:00:50 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:00:51 ... um, with a guy called James Bailey who is from Basel.And he brought up this really, really interesting point, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

Dominic McGregor 1:00:58 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:00:58 He said that curing an addiction doesn't involve going cold turkey, it involves the reintroduction of the substance on your terms.

Dominic McGregor 1:01:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:01:06 So, can you ever see yourself in the either short, medium or long-term, reintroducing or attempting to reintroduce alcohol?

Dominic McGregor 1:01:17 If you can tell me one reason- reason why. If anyone can tell me the one reason why-

Chris Williamson 1:01:22 Be-

Dominic McGregor 1:01:22 ... I should have it in my body.

Chris Williamson 1:01:23 Okay. So, because alcohol and other substances-

Dominic McGregor 1:01:27 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:01:27 ... are as much of a part of the experience of life as anything else is.

Dominic McGregor 1:01:31 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:01:32 Now, you could say, as I do to people when they ask about why am I not drinking as much, "M- my main reason is, I've served my time."

Dominic McGregor 1:01:39 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:39 Like, the same way you do-

Dominic McGregor 1:01:41 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:01:41 ... you- you- you, um, military service.

Dominic McGregor 1:01:43 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:01:43 I'm like, "I've served my time partying, I did a decade of partying-

Dominic McGregor 1:01:46 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:01:46 ... and right now I don't need to." But you could argue that by not reintroducing alcohol, or by not using alcohol, that again, you're now living in limit- a limited "limited" life.

Dominic McGregor 1:01:59 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:01:59 On one side, 'cause, don't get it wrong, like, I've had some fucking wicked nights absolutely out of my tree. Like, I have had some really, really fun times.

Dominic McGregor 1:02:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:06 And that's not to, i- i- I absolutely would not have been able to achieve those nights out sober.

Dominic McGregor 1:02:12 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:12 There's an element of the night, like we can sing the praises of sobriety all we want, but there's some nights out that just get going because everyone's blitzed.

Dominic McGregor 1:02:22 Yeah, yeah, com- completely. And I think, um, definitely, definitely not for the very foreseeable future.

Chris Williamson 1:02:29 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 1:02:29 I don't think ... I don't think it aligns with- with me- with me and my values at all. The s- the same, and this is gonna sound really stupid, the same way, um, the same way some people are vegetarian, they just don't, doesn't, it's not them. I- I don't, I honestly feel that I don't need it (sighs) . I just like to have fun, um, and I guess on the second part then maybe I'm not over- not over the addiction.

Chris Williamson 1:02:55 Interesting. I think, I think that there's definitely ... It- it shows the fact that you're able to, uh, make that admission, shows how much time you've spent being self-reflective.

Dominic McGregor 1:03:08 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:03:09 Because a lot of people wouldn't have even be- been able to identify the addiction in the first place-

Dominic McGregor 1:03:13 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:03:13 ... or that the habit was a problem.

Dominic McGregor 1:03:14 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:03:14 Let alone 20 months down the line, to be able to say, "I've still got more of this journey to go before I can actually consider going back in the other direction."

Dominic McGregor 1:03:22 Yeah. Yeah, there's- there's a- there's a huge fear. My- I- I live my life running away from that moment where I knew I had to stop.

Chris Williamson 1:03:30 Mm-hmm.

Dominic McGregor 1:03:30 Like, I- I live to not never feel like that ever again.

Chris Williamson 1:03:34 So there's, uh, an interesting thing, I'm doing Jordan Peterson day at the moment. Um, there's a, an experiment that was done with rats. Put rats into a, um, a tube-

Dominic McGregor 1:03:42 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:03:42 ... and they hadn't been fed for a while. They attached a spring around their tail and they put cheese at the end, and they wafted the smell of cheese in so they could smell the food, and the rats pulled a particular force on this spring.

Dominic McGregor 1:03:54 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:03:54 Then what they did was, they wafted the smell of a cat in from behind them, and you'd have thought, "The rats are starving, they're gonna pull as hard as they can already," but they didn't. The amount of force that they exerted increased. And what he says is, that in life you don't just need to run towards something that you want, you need to run away from something that you fear.

Dominic McGregor 1:04:10 Yep. And that's why I run so much.

Chris Williamson 1:04:12 (laughs) Dom, man, I've really, I've really, really enjoyed this. I'd love to do it again. Um, I'm gonna put the links to Teetotal Runner and everything else.

Dominic McGregor 1:04:22 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:04:22 Uh, social chain, guys if you wanna check it out, or Hogwartstologic, or just look on your Facebook feed or your Instagram feed, there's probably gonna be something from you guys-

Dominic McGregor 1:04:29 (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 1:04:29 ... that pops up on there. I really appreciate your time, man.

Dominic McGregor 1:04:31 No, thank you Chris.

Chris Williamson 1:04:32 Thank you so much. Cheers. Thanks, buddy. (instrumental music plays)