Doping Scandals & Olympics Corruption - Zack Telander

1. 0:00 – 0:53

   Intro

   1. ZTZack Telander0:00

      There were 10 people that were found to have had PEDs, and either suspended or retroactively suspended, thus giving the 11th place finisher the gold medal.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:11

      You're kidding me.

   3. ZTZack Telander0:11

      So when you s- I'm not kidding you. 11th place to gold medal.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:18

      (wind blowing) Zach Tellander, welcome to the show.

   5. ZTZack Telander0:21

      Thanks for having me back, Chris.

   6. CWChris Williamson0:22

      What's happening, man? You look serious. You're a serious human today.

   7. ZTZack Telander0:26

      No, um, uh, you know, normal stuff in, in my neck of the woods. Uh, weightlifting is going through its potential death penalty.

   8. CWChris Williamson0:36

      All right.

   9. ZTZack Telander0:36

      But beyond that, it's p- it's a pretty great day.

   10. CWChris Williamson0:38

       Well, we're, we're in the same city and we've decided to do this over the internet. Like, we could-

   11. ZTZack Telander0:42

       (laughs) I know.

   12. CWChris Williamson0:42

       I could shout it out of the window. We could just do it that way.

   13. ZTZack Telander0:45

       Yeah, I'll see you tonight, man.

   14. CWChris Williamson0:47

       Yeah, catch you later on. Let's do this, let's do this unrecorded later. But, uh, I have had

2. 0:53 – 9:24

   Chris’ Texas Trip

   1. CWChris Williamson0:53

      48 hours from hell with this. Jordan Peterson fucking infected me. Gave me a stomach... He poisoned me, that man.

   2. ZTZack Telander1:01

      Was it Jordan Peterson or was it a Chicago-style hot dog from the Ch- Chicago airport?

   3. CWChris Williamson1:05

      I'm blaming it on Jordan Pete-

   4. ZTZack Telander1:07

      (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson1:07

      I'm thinking a Canadian... This is an act of war from the Canadians against Britain.

   6. ZTZack Telander1:11

      (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson1:12

      Oh, these fucking polite motherfuckers. Uh, I don't know. So I thought that I'd eaten a dodgy hot dog, and that was what had caused me to wake up at 3:00 in the morning on Monday after I'd spent the weekend in Nashville with Jordan and Mikayla, with just vomiting, sat on the toilet for like 12 hours, just hadn't been that bad in... Dude, I threw everything I had at that illness. I was doing breath work, I was doing mindfulness practices against it. I'm pretty sure that I prayed at one point.

   8. ZTZack Telander1:42

      (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson1:42

      Like (laughs) I'm like just putting on my knees to a higher power. I've got the cushion on the floor, and-

   10. ZTZack Telander1:50

       Well, you were, you were praying to the porcelain god. That's for sure.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:53

       Correct, correct. I just wanted it to end. Uh, so I thought it was this dodgy hot dog that I'd had at Chicago airport, and then Mikayla messages me on, mm, Tuesday morning, "Oh my God, Chris, what have you done to us? Everyone in the house is really, really sick." Uh, so the only person, suspiciously, the only person out of the entire group that was out over the weekend that isn't ill is Jordan. Uh, so I am classifying that as an act of war.

   12. ZTZack Telander2:24

       Can, can I be honest with you? I'm actually really relieved it wasn't a Chicago-style hot dog, because-

   13. CWChris Williamson2:29

       'Cause that's your hometown, right?

   14. ZTZack Telander2:31

       Yeah, well because like, if you and I ever go to Chicago, and you're like, "Nope, no, no hot dogs for me," I would be heartbroken, you know?

   15. CWChris Williamson2:39

       Is that your national food? Is that the food of your people?

   16. ZTZack Telander2:41

       I would say so. I mean, people... We, we like deep dish. Um, Italian beef is another one. But Chicago-style hot dog, man, that's like, it's the greatest food on earth, so.

   17. CWChris Williamson2:51

       It, it came up in tiny increments surrounded by whatever else I'd had. Dude, it was so rough. So rough. But, uh, kind of... Was it worth it? It was probably worth it. It was probably worth it for a pretty fun weekend. Had a pretty fun weekend in Nashville. Tell you what, Nashville... Sorry to all the people from Tenns- well, Tennessee and Nashville aren't the same thing, but anyway. Nashville's much tackier than I remember, and I, I can't tell if that's just 'cause I was exclusively on Broadway, which is kind of like the main party street there.

   18. ZTZack Telander3:25

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson3:25

       But even having seen 6th Street in Austin, which is, that's where the hen parties from Nashville come to, but when you go to Nashville, you're like, "Oh my God, this is the pro leagues." Like, people-

   20. ZTZack Telander3:35

       Yeah, well, I think Nashville-style country, like there's a dis- there is... For, for country listeners, there is a distinct difference from like Nashville country, which is essentially the Hollywood of country, and I think that's where the tackiness really comes through, right? It's just that, that full-blown, uh, bachelorette party s- like fake Southern tackiness. Um, j- and, and which is interesting, you brought up 6th Street, which is also an incredibly tacky area. Um, also slightly sketchy. You and I saw Rogan, uh, pretty recently on 6th Street, and like leaving there is pretty sketchy.

   21. CWChris Williamson4:14

       Yes.

   22. ZTZack Telander4:15

       But you, you almost felt at home, though. You were like, "This is what Newcastle is, and this-"

   23. CWChris Williamson4:18

       These are my people, yeah.

   24. ZTZack Telander4:19

       (laughs)

   25. CWChris Williamson4:19

       But, no, dude, I mean, fucking going to Broadway in Nashville was... That turned up to 11. My God.

   26. ZTZack Telander4:28

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson4:28

       Like the, the, the, the, um, cowboy hats, the pink-

   28. ZTZack Telander4:31

       Yep.

   29. CWChris Williamson4:31

       ... sparkly cowboy hats that all of them were wearing, um, yeah, that was, that was an experi- I think the biggest change is, because I've come from Austin, especially spending time in whatever like South Austin where it, whatever, you're on Congress and everyone's out in jeans and trainers and you're watching live music, like just chill at some Italian bar or whatever, right, eating Tex-Mex, to go to full-on like Kid Rock's Finger Blast Club or whatever it's called-

   30. ZTZack Telander5:00

       (laughs)
3. 9:24 – 27:24

   Corruption in the Olympics

   1. CWChris Williamson9:24

      rang me this morning in-

   2. ZTZack Telander9:27

      Yes.

   3. CWChris Williamson9:27

      ... a state of frenzy like-

   4. ZTZack Telander9:31

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson9:31

      ... has never been heard before, the wrath of a tall human shouting about some shit. What's, what's occurring?

   6. ZTZack Telander9:43

      So essentially, the sport of weightlifting, uh, the sport that I'm, that I'm a professional in, uh, it, it's under the gun again. So I don't know if... Do you know that meme of James Franco and he's about to be hanged?

   7. CWChris Williamson9:57

      No.

   8. ZTZack Telander9:58

      Where, um... I forget what the... It's a, it's a Coen brothers movie, but he's hanged once and it, and it's unsuccessful, and then he gets hanged again, and he looks over at the guy on the second time, and he looks over and he says, "First time?" It's a, it's a, it's a famous meme, but basically everyone's freaking out because, uh, weightlifting is, quote-unquote, "out" of the 2028 games. The, the IOC had like... I guess it was their commissioner or someone spoke about this, but the verbiage did not exclusively or, sorry, explicitly state that it was out. It's essentially another warning to the IWF, which is the governing body of weightlifting, "Hey, you need to clean your shit up because, like, for real, we are going to kick you out." We had this issue leading up to 2020, which ended up being the 2021 games. Um, it was up on the chopping block for Paris, which is 2024, which we eventually found out they were going to include it. And now they're, uh, they're basically saying... See, it's weird verbiage here. They're not saying, "Hey, you're out. You have to work to get back in." They're just kind of saying like, "You're up again to be out," but this time it seems a little bit more serious. And-

   9. CWChris Williamson11:18

      Okay. So can you explain the different parties that are at play here? What does the-

   10. ZTZack Telander11:21

       Yes.

   11. CWChris Williamson11:21

       ... IWF do, and how do the IOC relate to that as a body?

   12. ZTZack Telander11:27

       So the IWF i- is required to do certain things to establish a relationship with the IOC, which is the International Olympic Committee, just like any other governing body has to establish that, um, with their... with the IOC. They have to establish some sort of relationship where they follow the guidelines to be in the Olympics. So, uh, i- in the past, the IWF has been...... one of the most, a- actually, you know what? I can just outright say the most corrupt Olympic sport. Um, I have a little quote here, it's very interesting, um, from somebody who did a, let's see here... So this guy named Mark Peith, Peith or Pyth, I'm not entirely sure. He was an anti-corruption expert and he actually worked on FIFA. And he said, uh, he and his team did a legal study after weeks of reviewing the IWF documents, which is the International Weightlifting Federation documents. What I saw here seems very, very brazen to me, more brazen than what I saw at FIFA. And if we're talking about corruption being more so than at FIFA, that can give you guys the level here. And there's-

   13. CWChris Williamson12:37

       What's he ref- what's he referring to?

   14. ZTZack Telander12:39

       Uh, so, so what he's referring to, man, there's, it's just there's so much. And this is why I said my head was spinning when I was trying to, to, to, uh, come up with, like, a finite amount.

   15. CWChris Williamson12:49

       Mm-hmm.

   16. ZTZack Telander12:49

       Basically, to, to put it simply, there's two branches. Okay? It's, uh, corruption amongst the suits, so the, the corruption amongst the, the boomers in suits, as I like to call them, and then the corruption amongst doping. So, simply put, doping, since 2000, there have been 700 cases, international, of doping suspensions. Um, and what we later-

   17. CWChris Williamson13:14

       Within the sport of Olympic weightlifting?

   18. ZTZack Telander13:16

       Yes. In the, within the sport of Olympic weightlifting. That is an astounding number. That, that's, that's crazy. Okay? So this is where... So, so the other branch of it-

   19. CWChris Williamson13:26

       How the fuck is there anyone left to do weightlifting?

   20. ZTZack Telander13:28

       (laughs) Well, so here's the thing. In, in, in the, uh, London Olympic Games in 2012, um, there was 10 people. There... Sorry. There were 10 people that were, uh, found to have had PEDs and either suspended or retroactively suspended, thus giving the 11th place finisher the gold medal.

   21. CWChris Williamson13:51

       You're kidding me.

   22. ZTZack Telander13:51

       So when you s- I'm not kidding you, 11th place to gold medal. So, so, you know, a great example of this is, like, um, you look at Lance Armstrong. There was a, uh... there was some guy, whether it was in his documentary or in Icarus, and he said, "I tested, personally tested, uh, uh, uh, Lance Armstrong 50 times and he passed every single one of them." Now, I believe that he passed those tests because, uh, they said it pretty explicitly in that documentary, I think it was either Icarus or it was... I think it's the Lance Armstrong documentary. A great documentary, by the way. Um, where he was like a prized possession to that, the cycling federation. So, you know, Americans, more or less, did not care about cycling before Lance Armstrong. And while he was hot, the last thing they'd want to do is pop this guy and get him in trouble. And it we- it took a long time for the people outside of that federation to expose Lance Armstrong, but that's actually what happened. And, you know, what you were saying about weightlifting, "How is there anyone left to do weightlifting?" When things like 2012 happens, you're, you're absolutely right. But the main thing, I think that the doping issues are secondary to the, uh, corruption, which is some of this stuff is very interesting. If these guys, the heads of the ID- IWF, were outside of sport, they would be behind bars. There is no question about that. And there are so many other sports like this. Uh, they talk about this in this article that very rarely do these cases of corruption within sport get pursued in, in trial, in actual criminal trial.

   23. CWChris Williamson15:34

       Is it a- is it a- I was gonna say, is it a criminal offense to cheat at sport?

   24. ZTZack Telander15:37

       I- I th- (sighs) you know, it- I- this, this sort of stuff... Here, I'll list off some, some of the stuff. Over the period of 17 years since 1992, more than $23 million went into Swiss IMF bank accounts, bank, bank accounts, which, however, were not listed in the IWF's balance sheets. When these accounts were discovered in 2009, Ayane alone was authorized to sign, so he was the only one who was able to look in-

   25. CWChris Williamson16:04

       Who's Ayane?

   26. ZTZack Telander16:04

       Ayane. Sorry, I didn't explain who that is. He is our overlord. Well, at least was. For the past three decades, he was the president of the IWF and this man is like a mafioso don, so the head of a mafia. There is no other way I can describe the IWF other than a crime syndicate 'cause, 'cause that's really, really what we're looking at. And, um, according to the research, Ayane could not explain the whereabouts of at least $5.5 million. This man had been, you know, siphoning money or he had, uh, uh, you know, he bribed people to, um, basically pass tests. So certain countries would pay fines to pass tests. They were always in, uh, cash, and they were always delivered directly to Thomas Ayane.

   27. CWChris Williamson16:56

       And so that's the money that's in cash, plus all of these transactions that have gone into this dodgy Swiss bank account as well. So that's the, that's just the stuff that was banked?

   28. ZTZack Telander17:06

       Yes. And, and, and their, their theory is that there's $5.5 million missing that, that's unaccounted for. There are also 300 tests that are unaccounted for, so 300 tests that just kind of slipped under the rug. There were multiple times where people were tested and then their positive tests were shown years later so that they could con- continue to compete. So-

   29. CWChris Williamson17:27

       Is, um, is, is it the IWF's job to enact their own testing, though, or do they not outsource it to RUSADA or USADA or someone else?

   30. ZTZack Telander17:38

       Right. So, so this is what's interesting, and I, I'll tie it back to, um, Lance Armstrong because, because I, I think a lot of people can resonate with that. We were, we were all well aware of that, that scandal. Um, so...Internationally, uh, w- we use WADA, World Anti-Doping Agency. And so that's gonna be for wor- those are for international events. But outside of that, each country is required to have national testing, and this is where you get the corruption to start, right? This, this, the, the, the fact... And I lo- love bringing this up, that America has USADA, and they don't really give a shit about any weightlifter. They're not going to protect a weightlifter in the same way that the Cycling Federation may protect Lance Armstrong. In the same breath, though, we will have a, a USADA-tested weightlifter compete against a North Korean, okay? So anything that North Korea does, as far as national testing, like, th- there's absolutely no way that we can reasonably say that there is something fair going on there, especially when they end up going into worlds, uh, world championships, Asian championships and, and winning a lot of medals.
4. 27:24 – 34:55

   How the IOC Threatens Weightlifting

   1. CWChris Williamson27:24

      press conference that was given today? Was this the IOC warning the IWF, "Get your act together by 2023-"

   2. ZTZack Telander27:33

      Yes.

   3. CWChris Williamson27:33

      "... or else you don't get to be in the Olympics in 2028"?

   4. ZTZack Telander27:37

      Yes, or else skateboarding, rock climbing, and something else will be in place. So weightlifting and boxing are gonna get kicked out for skateboarding and rock climbing.

   5. CWChris Williamson27:47

      That seems like a fair trade to me.

   6. ZTZack Telander27:50

      (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson27:51

      Cooks for cooks, right?

   8. ZTZack Telander27:54

      So, so (laughs) , yeah, I mean, it's... The, the verbiage is clear. Like, "Kick everyone out of the IWF, or else we're gonna lose this sport as we know it." And-

   9. CWChris Williamson28:04

      Okay, so t- t- talk to me, l- l- the IOC said... And t- to be fair, I mean, are you surprised? Like, are you surprised-

   10. ZTZack Telander28:10

       No, no, I'm not.

   11. CWChris Williamson28:11

       ... that the IOC said, "Your sport is a fucking shambles"?

   12. ZTZack Telander28:15

       No, because I t- I'm telling you right now, Chris, I have been covering this shit, this shit storm, for two and a half years. And I even have videos saying like, literally, "The death of our sport is nigh. Let's fix it." You know, years ago, I was saying that shit, and here we are now. Um, and, and-

   13. CWChris Williamson28:34

       It's finally come to a head.

   14. ZTZack Telander28:36

       Yeah, absolutely. It's been coming to a head. Y- n- the main issue here, Chris, is that there is a, a light at the end of the tunnel that I can see, and this is the worst part. It's like right as we see the light, they're just gonna close the door to the sport.

   15. CWChris Williamson28:53

       What's the light?

   16. ZTZack Telander28:53

       The light is, we just had a, uh, American world champion, Meredith Alwine, just won a world medal. Uh, last World Championships, we had a world champion and a silver medalist in Kate Nigh and Matty Rogers. Matty Rogers just got a third place medal. Um, we had a, an Olympic silver medalist. These are all things that America did not have and we're starting to have. And our youth is starting to get better and better because the sport is growing here and because people care of this sport outside of the monetary interest. If you were to compare weightlifting to football, there will never be a chance for weightlifting to do what football does, but it's something different. We are hobbyists. We are people who are good in the weight room when, when you're a child, if you're good and you learn the skill of snatching and cleaner jerking, and you pursue that. You're not pursuing it to have this dream of a life where you can be a professional football player, where you can get a scholarship to play football at a major university. That's not the case. But there are so many of those people. And not just...... 30-year-olds like myself, right? There are literal- there are 15-year-old kids who are incredible at this sport who now, when they get of age in 2028, that will be taken away from them. That is what I have a massive issue with. That is not okay. And it's only because of fucking boomers in suits. For real. If Thomas, if, if... Look, if the doping problem was the only problem, I don't think we would have this discussion. But it's shitheads like Thomas Bayan and the rest of his cronies that have this iron grip on this sport that have done that.

   17. CWChris Williamson30:37

       Is he still in his position?

   18. ZTZack Telander30:39

       No. He was forced to resign, and with zero criminal... I, I honestly think he still has his money.

   19. CWChris Williamson30:47

       How long has he been-

   20. ZTZack Telander30:47

       Which is insane.

   21. CWChris Williamson30:48

       So who's in charge now? Why hasn't he fixed it?

   22. ZTZack Telander30:50

       This is interesting. One of the guys who's an old board member, who was part of the, uh, the old guard was hired. He's actually a British guy. His name is Mike Irani, and the... What's interesting is the UK Federation didn't even like the fact that he was selected. So that goes to show that we took out, you know, uh, Thomas Bayan and put basically a disciple in his place.

   23. CWChris Williamson31:14

       Yeah. Version 2.0.

   24. ZTZack Telander31:16

       Yes. Yep. If you were to think about... You know, UK is another country that, like, leads the way in, in change. They're very, very harsh on doping, uh, arguably harsher than-

   25. CWChris Williamson31:27

       What's our-

   26. ZTZack Telander31:28

       ... the US.

   27. CWChris Williamson31:28

       Do you know our, um... have we got, like, UKADA or something?

   28. ZTZack Telander31:31

       Yes. Yes.

   29. CWChris Williamson31:32

       Is that what it is?

   30. ZTZack Telander31:33

       Yes.
5. 34:55 – 46:51

   The Processes of Doping in Sports

   1. ZTZack Telander34:55

      I, I would like to talk about doping in sport, you know, just generally.

   2. CWChris Williamson35:00

      Yup.

   3. ZTZack Telander35:02

      Um, how it works and, and why it will continue happening. But I think, from what I've gathered, when I continually cover doping in sports and corruption in weightlifting, there's this defeatist attitude from the commenter basically being like, "I don't care. Let them all dope. Uh, screw the IOC. Screw sports. Just make it fun. Make it fun for me." And I have a major issue with that, right? It's very simple-minded, and it's almost defeated in nature. That it's absolutely impossible to have some sort of policy in place where, um, you know, for the most part, we can have clean athletes. And if that isn't possible, it's possible to have, to have the playing field be somewhat, uh, uh, more level. The biggest issue that I found with doping, and in my s- experience in weightlifting, but this can carry over to many other sports, is the protection of doping... athletes who dope.That's the biggest issue that I have. So if you want to roll the dice and take drugs and try to pass tests, go ahead. You can do that in any other place, in any other endeavor in your life. You can cheat. If you don't get caught, what are we gonna do about it, you know? But that is not what ends up happening. There are people who get unfair advantages so that they can cheat or at least cheat more than others.

   4. CWChris Williamson36:34

      So you have-

   5. ZTZack Telander36:35

      Right? So, so that... Go ahead.

   6. CWChris Williamson36:39

      You have certain athletes that are able to utilize performance enhancers whilst other athletes don't. Has your camera just died again?

   7. ZTZack Telander36:50

      Yes.

   8. CWChris Williamson36:50

      You are... Do you have another battery?

   9. ZTZack Telander36:53

      No.

   10. CWChris Williamson36:54

       I hate you. I hate you (laughs) . I fucking said before we started-

   11. ZTZack Telander37:00

       I charged it, bro. I was charging it for a half hour.

   12. CWChris Williamson37:02

       You're a fuck. You're a fuck.

   13. ZTZack Telander37:06

       (laughs)

   14. CWChris Williamson37:06

       All right, right. We're switching to your fucking special needs camera.

   15. ZTZack Telander37:10

       I... By the way, though, this camera is much better.

   16. CWChris Williamson37:12

       It's not much better. Shut up. Right.

   17. ZTZack Telander37:14

       No, no, no. It's much better than the last camera when it, when it switched over.

   18. CWChris Williamson37:18

       Oh, 'cause you got your new fancy-

   19. ZTZack Telander37:19

       Yes.

   20. CWChris Williamson37:19

       ... yeah, laptop. Okay. Uh, yeah, the problem is that some people get popped, some people don't get popped. That's the issue.

   21. ZTZack Telander37:27

       Yeah, and, and more than that, the problem can stem even to an even worse place. Uh, Egypt was, I think, provisionally suspended from competing just internationally completely because they were found doping up 12-year-olds. So, so they were giving, they were giving PeD, PeDs to 12-year-old girls and boys. Okay? I don't care what anyone's stance on, "Give them all dope. Like, let them perform." That is immoral. That is wrong 100 times out of 100. Giving children drugs is, is so wrong (laughs) . Like, we, we know the science behind what anabolics do to a grown man or a grown woman, but what it does to someone going through puberty or someone who isn't fully developed, developed, that is e- extremely problematic. But then if you think, okay, this is kind of something with, you know, Jordan Peterson would bring up, like, okay, then, what's the line? Then what are we okay with? 17 years old? 18 years old? 19? 20? 21? 22? A lot of the people who say, "Let them all use drugs," they don't know what that means.

   22. CWChris Williamson38:42

       Well, let me ask you why it's the case that somebody could take puberty blockers to reassign their gender direction as they go through puberty, but we feel uncomfortable about somebody enhancing their performance by using testosterone. And many people would say, "In sport, that's unfair, and that's potentially dangerous." It seems like... I don't know. The, the... There are two different sets of standards that are being used here for people.

   23. ZTZack Telander39:10

       Yeah, and I would say most endocrinologists who are worth their fucking salt would say taking puberty blockers before you're fully developed or something like that is probably not a good idea. Given, you know, the, the countless hours of studies of human biology, it's not suggested to do something like that. (clears throat) Especially-

   24. CWChris Williamson39:31

       You mean, as a person who, as yet, isn't legally allowed to vote, drive, or drink alcohol in the US-

   25. ZTZack Telander39:37

       Yep.

   26. CWChris Williamson39:38

       ... maybe you shouldn't be making life-changing decisions-

   27. ZTZack Telander39:41

       Yes, that-

   28. CWChris Williamson39:41

       ... when you're basically still a child.

   29. ZTZack Telander39:42

       That can never go back.

   30. CWChris Williamson39:43

       Yes. Irreversible.
6. 46:51 – 54:20

   Would the Olympics Ever be Disbanded?

   1. ZTZack Telander46:51

   2. CWChris Williamson46:51

      Could you see a world within the next 50 years where the Olympics just gets disbanded for widespread drug use overall?

   3. ZTZack Telander46:59

      Like the Olympics gets cut off?

   4. CWChris Williamson47:00

      Yep.

   5. ZTZack Telander47:01

      No, I don't think so.

   6. CWChris Williamson47:03

      Think it's too big of a beast?

   7. ZTZack Telander47:04

      Yeah. It's... Dude, it's a political tool. It, it's just... It always has been a political tool. The Olympics have always been, uh, something where a country can flex. I mean, this is, this is really why I think the corruption in weightlifting is so, uh, so prevalent, is because these countries that don't have much power in any other sport, they found that they were doing pretty well, countries like Armenia, Ukraine, uh-

   8. CWChris Williamson47:32

      Iran.

   9. ZTZack Telander47:32

      Iran. Uh, you know, these countries found a way in to get gold medals. A gold medal for these countries is a massive deal. Any medal is a massive deal. It's a great-

   10. CWChris Williamson47:42

       National pride.

   11. ZTZack Telander47:43

       ... tool for propaganda, for national pride. It is a way to say fuck you to the other countries, to say that we're better. It is absolutely a competition between countries. And so now, when we see, uh, y- you know, these countries do well that don't do well in any, any other sport, they're going to clamor to the way things are.

   12. CWChris Williamson48:02

       It legitimates that country's sort of sporting national presence. Yeah. Okay.

   13. ZTZack Telander48:07

       Yes. Right? Does that make a little bit more sense why it's so difficult to break down this corruption?... be- because, because they, they don't want it to go, because-

   14. CWChris Williamson48:17

       But what is it about-

   15. ZTZack Telander48:17

       ... it's successful for other sports.

   16. CWChris Williamson48:19

       ... why is it that weightlifting has permitted Ir- why can't Iran just dope the shit out of some cyclists and crush cycling or some other sport, boxing or something? I think they are all right at boxing actually. But, yeah.

   17. ZTZack Telander48:31

       I, I, I hadn't thought about that actually. I hadn't thought about that. I think there's like some sort of history there. I think you see Eastern Bloc countries, uh, because they were, you know, part of the USSR and the, and, and, and historically the USSR has been incredibly successful in weightlifting so then those countries break off and now it's a great opportunity to, you know, flex against the old Russia, um, the old USSR. I, I'm not entirely sure about Iran. Um, what you've actually... What we see in a lot of other countries is some of these guys from these Eastern Bloc teams, they end up going to, um, to these other countries and they end up being their head coach.

   18. CWChris Williamson49:14

       Oh.

   19. ZTZack Telander49:14

       So, so yeah. So you'll see a Bulgarian head coach of, uh, the Australian team or something like that.

   20. CWChris Williamson49:20

       Fuck.

   21. ZTZack Telander49:21

       And that's where things get very interesting as well.

   22. CWChris Williamson49:23

       What do you think... How much... How widespread do you think drug use is generally in sports? So if you were to pick, I don't know, like American football, right? Or basketball and stuff like that.

   23. ZTZack Telander49:32

       Massive.

   24. CWChris Williamson49:33

       You reckon?

   25. ZTZack Telander49:34

       Yes. Massive. Massive. The... It's, it's not so that you can grow and get bigger muscles. Yes, you can retain... The greatest thing is you just retain your muscle so much easier. Uh, the second greatest thing is you, you can just do more work because every powerful movement, uh, you're able to have just a faster acting metabolism, a faster acting mode of recovery towards whatever movement that is. I think that basketball might be... Like, it would be the most advantageous place to use dope.

   26. CWChris Williamson50:11

       Why?

   27. ZTZack Telander50:11

       Because it is so... It is so intense what like a big player goes through, you know, 40 minutes of just back and forth and jumping and cutting, like it just would destroy your knees, the forces at which they're constantly using.

   28. CWChris Williamson50:27

       Mm.

   29. ZTZack Telander50:27

       And they play so many games. If you think about football, there's really not as much play. Each... The average play is six seconds long, right? Foot... Basketball is non-stop. It's on hardwood. You're not just cutting, you're jumping. If you were to compare that to soccer, the time that one player... If you actually look at the t- the amount of time a player sprints and cuts in soccer, it's not even close to, to a basketball player.

   30. CWChris Williamson50:53

       That'd be fucking... I would, I would love for someone to do, uh, an analysis that understands the way that different doping substances impact physiology and performance. And to just say, "Look, here are some of the relative outputs that you could expect if you were to take a moderate sort of, uh, sub-detectable dose where you were cycling on and off. So here's a typical cycle that somebody that was playing basketball would be able to use. Uh, and here's one that somebody in cycling could use and here's one that somebody in soccer and weightlifting and power lifting and whatever." Uh, and to just have a look at the differences, the expected differences in performance. One of the problems that you're going to get... I mean, let's say obviously you had this in baseball, right? You had Barry Bonds and that entire period where baseball lost its entire fan base because there was a huge doping scandal. Now the problem that you have with any sport like baseball or basketball is the season is so long.
7. 54:20 – 1:01:12

   How to Clean up Weightlifting

   1. CWChris Williamson54:20

      Okay, so roll, roll the clock forward for me. What would you do? Let's say that you're in charge of the IWF now, or you're, you're the IOC giving instructions to the IWF. What would your mandate be?

   2. ZTZack Telander54:31

      Uh, I would, I would clear, clean house. Every single person that was there during Ion is gone. There's no question. They're gone. I don't care how good of a person they were, they're gone. Uh, secondly, I would look over the doping protocol and I would find a way to verify the national testing. I think that there is some level of innovation that can happen where we can verify national testing. Then I would have athletes required to take, uh, a certain number of international tests per year. So if you're in that testing pool, in that elite testing pool, you can just show up to a, a, a meet, sign up, weigh in, test, and leave. You don't actually-

   3. CWChris Williamson55:21

      But then you're going to know when the test's going to be.

   4. ZTZack Telander55:24

      Right. But knowing when the tests are coming, and there's once one every two months, it is possible, but it's less likely to take the enormous amount of compounds, as, as well as on top of tightening up national testing. Of course, look, Chris, you can always cheat. You can always break the law. You can always break the rule. But we have to make it harder, and we have to be more diligent with that. Like I, I can sit here and give you solution after solution, and you can say, "Well, you know, they could skirt around this." Of course they can. It's never gonna change, but there are massive holes. I mean, if, if we looked at this from like an analytics perspective, we just said, we just had a bunch of economists come in, bunch of... And I actually just listened to your podcast. Nerds or Geeks or-

   5. CWChris Williamson56:11

      Nerds, Geeks, and Dorks. Yeah.

   6. ZTZack Telander56:13

      Uh, Geeks? Geeks.

   7. CWChris Williamson56:14

      Geeks.

   8. ZTZack Telander56:15

      'Cause, 'cause they have utility, right?

   9. CWChris Williamson56:16

      Correct.

   10. ZTZack Telander56:16

       Geeks. So we have a bunch of geeks come in, and, and they say, "Jesus, this doping protocol or, or anti-doping protocol, like it has massive issues here, here, and here. Fix them." That's gotta be possible, right? From my perspective, it has to be possible. So something like that would have to change.

   11. CWChris Williamson56:37

       I don't know, man. I don't know. I, I... It blows my mind that the Olympics has a very widespread drug problem, and it, it kind of makes sense, right? Because you appreciate that people will do whatever they need to do in order to win. And the, how would you say? The desire of the individual is going to outweigh, or the de- the, um, temptation of success is going to outweigh the temptation of virtue or integrity. Like obviously, you know, getting to the number one spot on the podium whether you're clean or not is so tempting to so many people. And if you're convinced enough that the other people in your sport and in your category are also using, and you know that you're not going to be competitive without it, then it becomes a race to the bottom. You say, "Well look-"

   12. ZTZack Telander57:29

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson57:29

       "... I, I can't not take this. I, I, it's better for me to be caught and kicked out because the alternative is coming 19th."

   14. ZTZack Telander57:38

       So here's the problem. In weightlifting in America, we don't even have the opportunity to race to the bottom. Or sorry, we don't even have the opportunity to even play because USADA is so stringent comparatively to other national testing.

   15. CWChris Williamson57:51

       How long has it been since, uh, an American athlete got popped at the international level?

   16. ZTZack Telander57:56

       Uh, as far as I'm concerned, there was one minor incident, uh, like-

   17. CWChris Williamson58:01

       What's a minor-

   18. ZTZack Telander58:02

       ... 10 years-

   19. CWChris Williamson58:02

       ... incident?

   20. ZTZack Telander58:02

       10 years ago, I think. I, I don't know exactly what had happened, but it was Sarah Robles. Um, I'll have to do more research on that. But I think before that, you know, 20, 30 years.

   21. CWChris Williamson58:13

       So you're saying that very few people are sneaking through the national level testing from USADA to get to WADA and then be tested at the international level and get popped?

   22. ZTZack Telander58:24

       Yes.

   23. CWChris Williamson58:24

       Okay. So-

   24. ZTZack Telander58:25

       The number is minuscule.

   25. CWChris Williamson58:26

       ... why, why not-

   26. ZTZack Telander58:26

       The number is minuscule.

   27. CWChris Williamson58:27

       Why not just do it that way? Why not just do it that way? Say that, "Look, if you get popped at the international level, uh, and your country overall is, uh, disproportionately represented, then there's going to be some sort of sanction."

   28. ZTZack Telander58:42

       There is.

   29. CWChris Williamson58:43

       Oh.

   30. ZTZack Telander58:43

       There is.
8. 1:01:12 – 1:01:49

   Where to Find Zack

   1. CWChris Williamson1:01:12

      Where should people go if they want to check out your stuff, if they haven't already done it?

   2. ZTZack Telander1:01:14

      Check out my YouTube channel. YouTube channel, just search my name, Z-A-C-K T-E-L-A-N-D-E-R. If you want to start weightlifting, go to patreon.com/zacktellander. And Instagram as well, coach_zt. That's where you'll find me.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:01:29

      See you soon for brisket, man. Bye.

   4. ZTZack Telander1:01:30

      See you.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:01:31

      What's happening, people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.

Episode duration: 1:01:50