Finding Your Why - Diren Kartal | Modern Wisdom Podcast 260

Diren Kartal 0:00 Listen, if you don't travel, if you don't meet different people, if you don't see different cultures, your knowledge isn't gonna be great about what the f-- is happening in the world, or what other people are like. So, then what happens? You have a kid. What the f-- are you gonna teach that kid? What are you gonna teach that kid? You- what have you seen? You know, like, you live in England, you got a British passport. You've got the luxury to travel the world, and you're telling me you're not gonna take advantage of that? It's crazy. I know people, yeah, (laughs) in Turkey that would kill for a British passport just so they can travel. (wind blowing sound)

Chris Williamson 0:33 Diran Bloody Kartel, how are you, my friend?

Diren Kartal 0:38 I'm excited to be here, man. I'm not gonna lie. I was disappointed you didn't have a studio lined up for me in Dubai, but I don't wanna talk about that. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 0:44 (laughs) A little bit of a different environment to the last time that we were together on a boat outside the Burj al-Arab.

Diren Kartal 0:52 Bro, how good was that day? I was hanging. I was hanging, but it was such a good day, man. It's just like vitamin D, man. It's good for everything. It- it- it- it solves all problems.

Chris Williamson 1:05 That's one hell of a wake-up call. You get up at, finally sort of surface, half past 10 in the morning, and you've got a couple of WhatsApps saying, "You have 45 minutes to get ready. I need to see you down at the marina because we're getting on a boat for the next five hours."

Diren Kartal 1:18 Bruv, I- yeah, I got the same effect. I didn't- I didn't know. I was like, "Yeah, we're going here, we're meeting." "With who?" "With the boys, with the guys you know." And those guys are crazy, man. They- those guys can drink for days, and I- I'm just- I'm just such a lightweight that, like... Which I'm proud of, by the way. Everyone's like, "Oh, you're a lightweight." I'm like, I'm proud of it. I'm like, "Oh, you're a lightweight." I'm like, "Yeah, bro, so what have you achieved by saying that? I don't care."

Chris Williamson 1:41 (laughs)

Diren Kartal 1:41 But it was- it was a great time. It was a great time. Those lads are funny people.

Chris Williamson 1:45 Yeah, they are, man. It's- when you get that group of people together, it's a- it's a recipe for chaos. But today, I wanted to talk about motivation. See, we're approaching a new year. People are gonna be making resolutions, wanting to change their routines. This is a lot of what you do with your work. Might- people might even be looking to change their lives, you know, create the foundations upon which their new life is going to be built. What are the principles that you give your clients when they want to make big changes in their lives?

Diren Kartal 2:11 So I think one thing is, um, a lot of people come to me for fitness and nutrition, right? 'Cause in- in essence, I'm a personal trainer. But what I've realized is the program that I do and the way I train people and do things with my clients, I've actually realized it affects their, uh, normal life as well as their health, 'cause in essence, when you look after your health, uh, other things around your life actually become a lot better. And I think one of the key things about trying to keep my clients motivated is trying to get them to do something that they really enjoy, which I think is one of the biggest issues. People feel like you need to be consistently struggling to be- to achieve, whether it's a fitness goal, whether it's whatever you want to do in life, you know? And I- and I try to make what they see a big problem, a small one, 'cause I feel like when we look at problems as a small issue, and look at solving them, the stress about being motivated or whatever it is you're trying to solve kind of goes away. Does that- does that make sense? Do you get what I'm trying to say there?

Chris Williamson 3:14 Yeah, man. So talk me through. Someone comes to you and they say, "Hey coach, I'm wanting to do X. I really want to get a black belt in jujitsu. I really want to lose 50 pounds or 20 pounds or get in shape for whatever it might be, but I don't really feel that motivated to do it." Should they just drop it?

Diren Kartal 3:35 Yeah. No, of course not. They should, I think they should- they need to ask theirself like why they're doing it, you know, why they're doing it, what they wanna achieve from it, and what they need to understand is to achieve- s- to achieve whatever it is they want to achieve, there's certain steps that you need to go through. So if it's fitness, for example, you're coming to me for fitness, I'm gonna teach you the basic fundamentals. I'm gonna simplify it in such a way to you that you're not gonna see it as a problem, 'cause I think, at the moment, with coaches, with personal training, I feel like the delivery of the coach, chatting to someone is really important. So if I'm chatting to you, I need to be talking to you in a language that you're going to understand, you know? I need to make sure whatever I'm saying to you or how I'm delivering it to you, you need to be paying attention, you know? It's, um, it's one of those things where, 'cause I do like group coaching at the minute, um, each individual is very different, but if you look at it as a group, we all have very similar problems. It's just you kind of have to word things differently talking to different individuals.

Chris Williamson 4:45 What are the most common problems that you see coming up?

Diren Kartal 4:48 Bro, at the minute, mental health, man. Like, at the minute, it's like a lot of mental health, and obviously with the pandemic, not being able to travel as freely as we want to, I see a lot of people worrying about tomorrow, worrying about what's going to happen instead of worrying about today. And I think one thing that we all need to do, is what I do, is I'm not worrying about tomorrow. I worried about this podcast today. What's the point of me worrying about it for a week, you know? Not that I was worrying about it, but like, what am I gonna over plan? What am I gonna- why should I worry about what I'm gonna talk about? I'm gonna talk about whatever feels good. I'm gonna deal with it however I'm feeling today, and I'm gonna take the challenge or whatever it is in a way that I feel, 'cause to be honest, I love doing podcasts, man. I love these conversations. I feel like it's one of the best ways I learn. You're probably the same. You're probably similar, right?

Chris Williamson 5:46 Absolutely, man. One of the things I learned from a guy called Andrew Tate, who is a son of a chess grandmaster, he's a kickboxing world champion, he lives in a basically a fortress in Romania, and he's a millionaire. He's like just a very, very eccentric fellow, and, um...... he has this concept where he says he has faith that future Andrew will s- will save more money. So, he'll go out and he'll buy a Bugatti because he knows that future Andrew will earn the money to pay for it. And this kind of unrelenting faith in the future version of you is something that I r- I've tried to cultivate a lot this year. And when you can fully lean into it and actually believe it, not just say it, but, you know, genuinely in the source code, it's written into your being, when you realize or when you hopefully, uh, take that in, it makes a very big difference. But I think if you don't have sufficient situations during which you have proven to yourself that you can actually perform, that you can make a promise and then deliver it to you, understandably you have low confidence. And if you have low confidence, you're going to be concerned about tomorrow because, well, uh, uh, yesterday I was concerned about today, and today I didn't do what I said I was going to do yesterday.

Diren Kartal 6:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:58 So tomorrow, what if I say that... don't do the thing that I say I'm going to do today? And this is how we get into that cycle, right?

Diren Kartal 7:04 But you know what it is? It's- it's that thing you're talking about is, um, the people that can't do that are too worried about being safe, right? The safety element. So for example, bruv, I was buying business class tickets with James Smith when I couldn't afford it. You know? Thinking, "Bruv, don't worry about it, Derren. Just buy this. Your money's gonna be... you're gonna have barely anything in your bank account, but future Derren is going to make that. Don't worry. Just get on that flight, get in that environment, get with those people. Don't worry about tomorrow. Worry about today, and then we'll deal with, uh, tomorrow then and we'll tackle that then." And it's... people need to take their mind... d- depending on what they want to achieve, like if you're happy with where you are, of course, like do what you need to do. But if you're not and if you want to achieve certain things, I feel like you need to take some risks. And the only time you perform is when you have no other fucking option. You know? If- if you have one chance, if you said you're gonna deliver something, right? And you have... the only opportunity for y- for you to have a good outcome of this is delivering whatever you're delivering well, you're gonna turn up, especially if you need the money, especially if you don't want to disappoint people, and especially if you, if you don't want to fail. I mean, the fear of failing kind of... like, it... you shouldn't be scared of failing, but it also gets you doing what you're supposed to do as well. Right?

Chris Williamson 8:30 Perfect example of that, I think James would admit when he started writing his first book, like he's not an author. I'm- I'm aware that he's a two-time Sunday Times bestseller now, but when he began writing his first book, he wasn't an author and he wasn't getting it ghostwritten, he was doing it himself. And as soon as you sign on the dotted line with HarperCollins, it's like, "Okay, they expect a book and holy shit, this needs to be done in the next nine months. I need to... I need to put some words to paper," and you will find a way to do it. I would say, in my experience, most people underestimate their capacities moving forward. Fewer people are overconfident than under-confident, in my experience.

Diren Kartal 9:15 Bro, I think a lot of people, um, uh, i-... mate, your environment and who you're around is so important. Like it's so important. And the people that tend to, say, not make the leap with whatever it is that they want to do, it's kind of around people that says, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe don't risk it. No, no, no, no. Play it safe. Play it safe." Or they say it because they don't want you to be better than them, essentially. You know? I like to be around people that want the best for me, want me to win, you know? And I like to keep people around me that are like that, and I'm only around those sort of people because I feel like that's the only way to kind of push each other, uh, in a, in a... with the right pressure, as well as with the right people around you when... if you need something, you can ask and you know they're there to, um, either give you advice, either push you more or tell you that, "Oi, Derren, that content was shit, bruv. What are you doing?"

Chris Williamson 10:13 (laughs)

Diren Kartal 10:13 You know? And I get that. Like, we have a group chat with the boys and we'll message in there and we'll be like, "Yo bro, oh yeah, I'm not gonna lie to you man, that was probably the worst thing I've ever seen in my life." You know? And then next thing you know, you've got four of your mates grilling you so hard about it, a bit of tough love. The next day, bang. 50,000 views on a video or whatever it is, you know? And I feel like it's just so important to have the right people around you, which I think most people don't have, if I'm being honest.

Chris Williamson 10:40 Do you think that's a byproduct of British culture?

Diren Kartal 10:43 (sighs) Uh, you know what? I... it's hard for me to answer that because although I am in British culture, I'm very much like my dad who's a Kurd in Turkey, and I've always been around very, um... I've always been around Africans, um, uh, Jamaicans, Turks, Kurds, like I've been around British culture, but I've also been in the heart of London where it's so mixed that I- I'm not even sure what the answer to that question is, if that makes sense.

Chris Williamson 11:15 No, I know what you mean. I have a theory that I've been working on this, (laughs) this year that is... because geographically the UK is waterlogged, right?

Diren Kartal 11:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:24 It gives people a very kind of insulated sense of life. I don't know... I- I can't speak for what it's like in France or in Germany or in America or anywhere else, but I know for a fact that there are tons and tons and tons of people that I went to state primary, state secondary, state college with who are-

Diren Kartal 11:41 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:41 ... going to l- be born, live and die in the town that they came up in.

Diren Kartal 11:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:46 So Stockton-on-Tees, which is a, a, a lovely place and mum and dad are still there and they love it, um, but is famous only for having the UK's highest teen pregnancy rating. Uh, and they- they recently-

Diren Kartal 11:58 Oh, really?

Chris Williamson 11:58 ... they recently lost that as well, so that, that was one thing they had-

Diren Kartal 12:02 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 12:02 ... that's now gone. Um, and I remember, I was like...

Diren Kartal 12:05 ... 15 years old or 14 years old in some older buddy's car from college or something, and we were driving around, and I remember one of the kids that was sat in the back saying, as we were going over this flyover in, on the A19 in Teesside, I remember him saying-

12:18 Yeah.

12:18 ... then, "Teesside's the best place in the world, man. I'm never gonna leave." And I thought even then, I'd never been anywhere except for, like, Disneyland with mum and dad and Lanzarote and stuff.

12:28 Yeah.

12:28 And I remember thinking then, "That is unbelievably short-sighted." And I worry about what sort of an influence that has for other people-

12:39 Yeah.

12:39 ... who perhaps have goals, who want to grow, who want to do other things. Don't get me wrong, it makes for a fantastic family life. I think it promotes a classic, sort of British dream, growing up, having a family, you know, doing that sort of thing. But for an entrepreneur, somebody who wants to grow and experience new things, I'm not convinced it's the best environment.

12:59 I, I don't think it's best for family either, if I'm being honest. That's because, and the only reason I say that is, listen, if you don't travel, if you don't meet different people, if you don't see different cultures, I'm sorry, but you're not gonna be, your knowledge isn't gonna be great about what the fuck's happening in the world, or what other people are like. So, then what happens? You have a kid. What the fuck are you gonna teach that kid? What are you gonna teach that kid? Y- what have you seen? You know, like, you live in England, you've got a British passport, you've got the luxury to travel the world, and you're telling me you're not gonna take advantage of that. It's crazy. I know people, yeah, (laughs) in Turkey that would kill for a British passport just so they can travel. You know, not just Turkey, loads of countries, right? And I feel like people don't realize how lucky I think w- we have it in England with the opportunities that we have, uh, with the traveling that we could do, obviously not with a pandemic and all that happening. But it's, I think it's so important that if you can travel, you should. And it's not just for you, it's for people around you. Your eyes will open differently, and this is, like, maybe the hippie side of me coming out that's lived in Bali, lived in Australia, lived in Turkey and all that. But my best skill is probably the fact that I can socialize with anyone, anyone. I can hold a conversation with anyone, and I know for a fact that has only happened because I've always been in awkward positions in different countries where I don't even speak the language, but somehow I got out of that situation or whatever it is. You know? And like you, for example, you said you didn't travel much, but you going to Lanzarote, you going to Disneyland, whatever it is, you saw something different that you wanted to see more of. Mm-hmm.

14:42 And that's thanks to your family, right? You might not be in Dubai right now doing a podcast, which you love doing, if your family didn't initially take you on a holiday. It doesn't matter if they went on a holiday and had a, uh, uh, English breakfast in the morning, but... (laughs) Do you know what I mean? So I think-

14:58 I know.

14:59 ... e- I think it's, I think it's really important that you take advantage of traveling. And it's fun, man. It's, it's so much fun. W- w- you like, you like it, right? I mean, you're in Dubai.

15:08 No, I'm not. This is me back home. I'm back home now, but, um, yeah, last-

15:11 Oh, you're back home?

15:11 Yeah, last year was-

15:13 Oh.

15:13 Last year was 12 countries. This year, even with the pandemic, did Athens for my birthday, Ibiza when you were there, and then, um, Dubai.

15:23 Oh, yeah.

15:23 Dubai when you were there as well. You know, this is- Yeah.

15:24 ... something that I thought that was really funny. I was like, "Yeah, I'm trailblazing, you know, even during the pandemic, I'm being antifragile. I'm finding myself places that I can go to. I'm like, I'm so unique." Like this is, and then in each one of those places, you were there.

15:38 (laughs)

15:38 (laughs)

15:39 And then, (laughs) and then Mike Thurston was there as well. And I was like, "Oh, maybe, maybe I'm a little bit less unique than I thought."

15:46 But you know what, yeah? It's, um, isn't it amazing like, when you like, you get on a plane, there's something about, there's something about airports that really are just buzz. Are buzzing. I'm in the airport, I'm excited, I can't wait to open up my laptop, write an email, do a bit of work, maybe have a beer, like I'll, I'll buzz off it. Get on a flight, and then you get off, whether it's a hot country or not, you're somewhere different. It sparks so many different ideas that you can do for content, business, meeting new people, whatever it is. So many new opportunities. And initially doing that, I think it's... 'Cause I've, at 16, I went away and, uh, played football in Turkey, so I think from a young age I was very used to kind of traveling on my own. So, maybe I got rid of that fear early on. And I think some people might be worried because, "Oh shit, I'm 30 years old, I'm too late to travel, I'm too late to do this," when you're not, man. It's never too late to do-

16:46 That's bullshit.

16:47 ... whatever you want to do.

16:47 Dave, Dave Driscoll is 42 and that man's still getting naked every morning and then going and running Wanderlust, uh, CrossFit.

16:55 Bruv, he's in ridiculous shape for his age. You know, he's in ridiculous shape, mate. Such a good-looking guy as well, man. So much charisma, mate.

17:02 He's a good human.

17:03 So much charisma.

17:03 Here's one thing that I-

17:04 Yeah, yeah. He's a good man.

Diren Kartal 17:05 ... that I realized after Dubai, I put it in my email that went out today. Um, you know Ollie Ollison, right? You're part of our little cabal of, of, of guys that Luke knows.

17:15 Yeah, yeah.

17:15 And he taught me about break point, which is in the SAS, they'll land somewhere and they'll either fight or sneak their way to an objective. Let's say that they're going to breach a room. And before they breach the room, they'll stack up outside of the door. So you can imagine like proper Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six shit. And they're stacked up outside-

17:32 Yeah.

17:32 ... of the door and they take a moment while they're there and they just breathe, reset, recalibrate. They take themselves through the plan that's gonna come up, and then they breach the room. And it's this interlude between two periods of chaos, right? So you've got two periods of intense-

17:47 Yeah.

17:47 ... action and you have this one period (breathes deeply) that just gives you a chance where you can move between the two. And I was in Dubai for three and a half weeks, which is the longest I've been anywhere, uh, in quite a while. Last year I did a road trip across America, which was a similar amount of time. Um, but I was still working while I was out in Dubai, I was still recording the show, still doing all of this stuff. And I came back and honestly last week was the best that my mindset's been in the UK in pretty much as long as I can remember. And obv- obviously I was curious as to why that was the case. I'm thinking like, "What have I done?" Was it that I got some sunshine? Was it just like-

Chris Williamson 18:21 ... defeating a little bit of seasonal affective disorder because it's so dark and cold and gray here. Uh-

Diren Kartal 18:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:26 ... and what I came to is I think it was like a personal break point, that I went away and it was just an opportunity to see something different. It was an interlude between two periods that were very similar and very chaotic. So, everyone this year has spent Groundhog Day over and over again, looking at the same four walls. Right Move had its busiest ever day in history for properties just toward the end of the first lockdown because people-

Diren Kartal 18:50 Oh, really?

Chris Williamson 18:50 ... are sick of the houses that they're in. They've realized that-

Diren Kartal 18:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:53 ... "I hate not having a k- a garden, I hate the partner that I'm living with so I'm gonna split up with them."

Diren Kartal 18:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:59 Whatever it might be. Tons of houses got listed, tons of people wanted to move. So yeah, the, what I took away from it was that being away, still working, still doing what I do, but in a new environment, new stimulus, s- seeing yourself, seeing all my buddies out there, going and seeing MK play live, going and s- you know, all of these different experiences had given me an opportunity to come back with a fresh set of eyes and new clarity. And if that's not a good advertisement for travel, I'm not really sure what is.

Diren Kartal 19:27 Bro, I mean, think about it like this. I spoke to you, we spoke a bit on, um, on the boat, right, that day. And when I spoke to you, I was like, "I'm rating what you're doing with your podcast, mate. Every day, you, you got an episode, you got something happening. I rate it. I rate how organized you are." And I was like, "I need to do more fucking episodes." You know? Like, it sounds crazy, but this is how I think. Maybe me being in Dubai or whatever, me just chatting to you for like five, 10 minutes is gonna push me to do another 20 or 30 episodes in the next six months. That 20, 30 episodes can help so many people. That 20, 30 episodes can help my growth or whatever it is. You know? And I think that's, that's why I love traveling so much, man. And there's something about being somewhere different and talking to someone, right? Uh, it's like every sort of, whether it's ego that you have back at home, whether it's the comfort that you have, whether it's the fact that you know you can swing your dick around and talk freely because you know your friends around the corner, when you're away, you're nicer. (laughs) People are nicer when they're away. You know? When you're not in your hometown, you know to be nice because w- well, you got no other option. And I feel like that shit-

Chris Williamson 20:42 That guy might have eight massive mates.

Diren Kartal 20:45 Yeah, exactly. So it's like, it's just such a nicer environment to see people and connect with people, you know? But, um, I loved ... Dubai was great, man, and it's good to see that you did that traveling as well, and it's good to see that's helping you out, brother. I love it, I love it.

Chris Williamson 20:59 It really is. One of the things that I hate, that I, uh, really, really irks me, and I think this is part of that British culture thing, is when I'll hear someone make a pejorative statement about America, Americans, or Australians, or Turkish people, or French, or whatever it is-

Diren Kartal 21:15 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:15 ... and I know for a fact that they've never been to that country. It's like-

Diren Kartal 21:19 Bro. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 21:20 ... what? What are you talking about? How can you say that? You've lived in Westerhope, just north of Newcastle, for the last 27 years, and now you think that you an authority on all of these different countries.

Diren Kartal 21:34 Bro, it's, it's mad, you know, 'cause like (laughs) , you get, I know, I know like people, 'cause I've, I've had like a few DMs, I've had a few trolls like troll me, right? And like, I just know when it's racist. I know, I can feel it, man. I can feel it. Like, they'll say something about the way I talk or something and I feel it, man, and I see it. And I don't doubt myself one bit, and I'm like, "You prick." But you're there, you say something like that to me, but then you go to the kebab shop and then you order food from there.

Chris Williamson 22:03 (laughs)

Diren Kartal 22:03 You know? Like, how does that even, like ... What, what goes in your racist mind, and then you go and order a kebab from a Turkish man, you know? It, it's funny. And it's, I guess ex- uh, it, it's mad, innit? Like the whole Brexit thing, I don't know. Like people don't even know what they're voting for, people don't know what they're doing, people don't know, uh, what's even good for them. I swear to God. People, some people don't even know what's good for them, so they're kinda doing what everyone else is doing, or what they're provoked to say, or what they're provoked to decide. You know? It's a bit scary actually how media and everything can manipulate so many people. It's, it's fucking scary.

Chris Williamson 22:41 It's terrifying, man. It's absolutely-

Diren Kartal 22:43 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:43 ... terrifying, especially when you think ... So going back to what we were talking about there about motivation and people losing motivation with certain things, you have to consider that a lot of people don't do things they want to do, they do things that they think they want to do. And the things that they-

Diren Kartal 22:58 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 22:58 ... think that they want to do very often are values that they've adopted from their parents, from their friends, from their culture, from their local town, whatever it might be. But these aren't consciously designed decisions. These are things-

Diren Kartal 23:11 Yeah. Right.

Chris Williamson 23:11 ... that they've, like a fucking dirty sponge, just absorbed and then made the lowest common denominator of that. Like, how many guys do you know that do purely bodybuilding style programming because that's all that their mates do?

Diren Kartal 23:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 23:28 But if they were to take up endurance racing, or BJJ, or CrossFit-

Diren Kartal 23:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 23:33 ... or functional fitness, or y- yoga or pilates or whatever it might be, they would be so much happier, they'd be so much more compliant with training, they'd be fitter, they'd be healthier, all of this stuff, but they'll continue to grind away because all that they know is bodybuilding.

Diren Kartal 23:46 Yeah. It's, um ... it's mad, and I think one of the, one of the problems is, I'll tell you what it is, is when people, if people don't know, if you don't know what you're supposed to do, if you're listening to this, if you don't know what you're, what you're supposed to do, if you don't know what you wanna do, that's fine. Right? That's okay to not know. Right? 'Cause I'm not gonna lie to you, I'm kind of kicking with the wind. I'm loving what I'm doing, but I don't know what I'm gonna do in five years, I don't know what I'm gonna do in 10 years. I might fucking hate doing podcasts and social media and PTing. I might do something ... I might be selling cars. I don't know. You know? And people worry so much about ...... feeling either not a part of something or feeling like not doing anything is a waste of time, because they're judged. If you don't, for example, if you don't have a job or whatever it is, or if you don't have a job where you wake up at 4:00 AM and you don't work 14 hours, it's like, "Oh, you don't know what hard work is like." I'm like, "Shut the fuck up, bro." (laughs) I mean, just because you work hard doesn't mean you're s- like, you're actually working efficiently, you're actually doing something that's making a big difference, you know? So, for people that are worrying about not knowing what to do, I mean, that's okay. Like, that's okay. Don't force something you don't like or what someone else has told you to do because you don't know.

Chris Williamson 25:10 There's a paradigm that James Clear uses called explore/exploit, and-

Diren Kartal 25:16 Okay.

Chris Williamson 25:16 ... his argument is that earlier on in your life, or in periods where you're finding yourself a little bit lost, you should explore. You should do lots-

Diren Kartal 25:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:24 ... of different things. Travel's a perfect example of that. Go and join a new sports club, go and join, try out a new hobby, go to a public speaking event, go do, like, just mad stuff. Just say yes to adventures, because coming out of those adventures, you will probably learn so much so quickly about what it is that you do and don't like, that you're then able to exploit, i.e. narrow down into the channels of stuff that you do like, so much more quickly. But again, people have these fears, "I don't want to do something new. What if I suck? What if I'm silly? What if nobody likes me?" So they don't, they just stick to doing that same habitual stuff.

Diren Kartal 26:02 That's m- the biggest issue is, uh, people worrying about what other people think. That's, that is what stops everyone.

Chris Williamson 26:09 How'd you get past that?

Diren Kartal 26:12 How did I get past it? (inhales deeply) How did I get past it? I got past it, to be honest, I kind of got past it looking at how my dad is. My dad says what he w- my dad says what he thinks, and I know it gets him (laughs) into a lot of trouble, but it also gets him into a lot of good places. And I was like, "I need to stop being..." 'Cause I played football, right, for a very long time, and I think one of the reasons I wasn't successful at it is I was a bit nervous on the pitch, and I think it's b- I cared too much. I cared if I make a mistake, the coach is not gonna play me again. I cared that if I passed the ball wrong or whatever, that player's not going to pass the ball again to me. I cared too much. And I was like, instead of worrying about what people are gonna think about whatever I'm doing, I just need to worry about doing the job that I'm supposed to do, and doing what I enjoy, and actually concentrating on just myself instead of basing any decision that I make on anyone. Any decision that I make now is based on what I want to do. Like, I will sit somewhere with my mom and dad sometimes. They've took, the- sometimes they will drag me to family meets. I'm like, "Mom, I'm going. I've ordered an Uber." They're like, "What are you doing?" I'm like, "I'm not happy here. I, I want to go. This is wasting my time. I've said hello to everyone, I've spoke to people, um, I've showed my respect, I've catched up with everyone, I'm going. I'm wasting my time. I'd rather be on my laptop at the minute and do something productive." You know? So I'm basing every decision on what is best for me, and that is kind of helps me pass through that, if that makes sense.

Chris Williamson 27:49 You said in a podcast recently that people like you more now that you're being selfish.

Diren Kartal 27:53 Yeah. Yeah, man. P-

Chris Williamson 27:54 I'm guessing that's this, I'm guessing that's the same thing.

Diren Kartal 27:56 Yeah, yeah. People like me more. People, people can, like, I even know, people don't ask me for stuff because, people don't ask me for stuff. They know I'm not gonna say yes to. (laughs) They're like, I c- I know, like, my cousin will be like, "Should we ask ￂﾦNter?" "No, probably not. He ain't gonna come. He knows, we know he ain't gonna come." You know? 'Cause he's got his thing that he needs to do. They know because when I'm there or when I'm doing something, they know because I truly want to do it. You know? Like, again, I'm gonna give Smith as an example. He knows, uh, me, I'm flying to Australia, I'm gonna do two weeks quarantine in a room. In essence, I'm going for his tour, right? But he knows that b- I'm going for me as well, because it's gonna make me happy, you know? So there's no feeling of where he's gonna feel guilty 'cause, "Oh, shit, I've made Derren, uh, stay in a room," or, he knows, he knows Derren's coming because it's gonna make him happy, you know? And it's the same vice versa with him or with anyone, you know? And that's why people just need to prioritize and not be afraid to be selfish. Being selfish isn't bad, man. Being selfish is, being selfish is, is good because it's good, because in the long run, not even in the long run, like, it doesn't have to be that long, you make other people around you way happier because you're happier, because you're doing what you like, what you want to do. Do you know?

Chris Williamson 29:17 Yeah. That confidence, I think, is borne out of someone who has a very, very strong why. If you've got a strong enough why, "I know what I want to do," then everything else is gonna move out of the way because it has to. But so much of our time, and this is something that I've only learned in the last couple of years, it's very, very rare that we actually sit back and assess, how are we doing our lives? How are we spending our lives? What are our values? It took me until I was 31 years old to define my core values in life. Sat down, spent two days doing Taylor Pearson's Core Values exercise, which everyone who's listening will be familiar with, and if you're not, search Taylor Pearson core values. It'll take you probably half a day, but it took me two days. Um, and I sat down and did that, and I was like, "Hang on, I've lived my life for 31 years-"

Diren Kartal 30:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:04 "... without knowing what the basis values that I live on, uh, are."

Diren Kartal 30:10 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:10 And then as soon as that happened, as soon as I realized what they are, curiosity, adventure, selfless development, excellence, and self-care-

Diren Kartal 30:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:16 ... I'm like, "Okay, everything that I do in my life serves these five things, one of these five things or multiple within it." It made everything else easier, but because I was so caught up with the important tasks, sorry, with the urgent tasks, I never got to the important ones.... answering emails-

Diren Kartal 30:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:34 ... spending too much time on my phone, just being busy responding to people, whatever it might be, just dicking about wasting time on stuff that doesn't properly move the needle.

Diren Kartal 30:42 (clears throat) Yeah, that's right.

Chris Williamson 30:43 As soon as I did, the difference downstream from that is night and day.

Diren Kartal 30:49 Mate, it's like, sm- small example is (slaps table) this. I've got three, four, I've got four fucking, not three, four, five, five notifications already, right, like, on my phone. I'm not gonna fucking reply to them until tomorrow, you know, 'cause I've got shit to do. And I feel like so many people feel the pressure of, "Oh, shit, I need to reply right now. I need to reply right now," and they lose valuable time, you know? Which is w- it's so important to really focus on yourself and what you're trying to do instead of, again, worrying about other people's problems, because a lot of the time people are just bitching (laughs) instead of getting things done, you know? I don't know. May-

Chris Williamson 31:31 I think, I think as well, if you, if you've got such a weak why, if your goal, your end goal that you want to achieve is so poorly defined and doesn't have any affinity to who you truly are, you're going to answer the text.

Diren Kartal 31:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:44 Because why wouldn't you? You've got nothing better to do.

Diren Kartal 31:46 True.

Chris Williamson 31:47 Whereas if you spend that time, "I'm going to explore before I exploit, I'm going to try new things, I'm going to work out something that I love, and then I'm going to really, really get into it, I'm going to-

Diren Kartal 31:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:56 ... find out who I am, and then I'm going to-

Diren Kartal 31:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:59 ... commit myself to being the best version of that person that I can be," if you do that-

Diren Kartal 32:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:03 ... you're not even going to notice the messages.

Diren Kartal 32:06 That's true.

Chris Williamson 32:06 You're not even, you're not even going to realize that the notifications have come. People are going to ask you to come to the shit that's important, but not the other stuff, because they know that you're on your path. And as well-

Diren Kartal 32:15 Agreed.

Chris Williamson 32:15 ... as a final thing, you, I think that you're right that some people are nervous about, uh, not compromising what they do to keep other people happy, but think yourself, who is it that you're most gravitated towards? Who is it that has that real social gravitas, that renown? It's people who are on a journey, who have a mission. That's who compels you. Why do people listen to James? It's because-

Diren Kartal 32:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:40 ... he is a guy who has his very, very, very clearly defined values, bright lines in the sand about what he will and won't accept, and he's-

Diren Kartal 32:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:47 ... iterated on that a thousand times in different posts and videos and live streams.

Diren Kartal 32:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:53 So, people resonate with a person who is on a journey more than they resonate with someone who compromises their values at the first moment to make them happy.

Diren Kartal 33:01 Yeah, yes, that, that's exactly right. I mean, it's funny, when we're like, when we do a lot of traveling and stuff, like, we become, um, we, we're like very careful with kind of... Not, not careful like with who we hang around, but anyone that kind of hangs with us, they end up becoming friends, and very quickly you see like the influence on what now they, they get influenced so much they start fucking wanting to do this. And w- And I love it. It's so good to see someone like kind of evolve like that, you know? It's such a powerful thing. And you're right, we are, you're grav- And you can feel it in a room when someone walks in, you can feel the energy, bang. They're like, "Oh, I don't know what he's doing. I don't, I don't know what it is, but it, it feels right." (laughs) You know? That's what it is.

Chris Williamson 33:43 Bro, so here's a perfect example of that. I'm in Dubai, and I'm going out for dinner with George, the buddy that I was out there with. He used to work for Social Chain, big social media company. It was owned, used to be owned by the CEO Steven Bartlett. So, Steven's Diary of a CEO quite sort of big time now, and has just become on the board of Huel. So, we're going in for dinner in this private dining room in C'est La Vie on the 54th floor of this huge tower overlooking The Burj right in downtown Dubai. Crazy expensive restaurant, beautiful. We walk in, and we sat down in this room, and it's an oval table, right? So, everyone's facing inward. But I noticed, I sat down, and after about sort of 20 minutes or so, everyone's, everybody's sat in there, and Steve's there, and his manager, and his video guy, and his social media manager, and his assistant, and me and my mate, and a couple of other people. And I noticed that even though it's an oval table, everybody had subtly shifted their chairs slightly toward him, so he was at the head of the table. Even though it was circular, he was at the head of the table, and he was the guy that was commanding the room. Even though it wasn't a work meeting, he wasn't there with like to control or to even do business-

Diren Kartal 34:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:55 ... but everybody had subtly moved themselves, and I was like, "That's such an interesting symbolic representation of where the gravity is coming from, where the power lies within this room."

Diren Kartal 35:04 He's leader, you know? And you can feel, and you can feel that with some people, it's just a n- With some people, it's a natural thing, man. You know, it's a natural thing, and I think it's... I feel like it's something that you have, like you said, when you know your why, right? Or you naturally have it. Some people naturally have it, and some people have it because of what they do and knowing what they're doing.

Chris Williamson 35:30 I get, I g- I get really, really jealous of people who've stumbled upon their why just with no work, like it happened... You know, you think about any, any sportsman who's done their sport since they were a kid. Like, you happened... Uh, England, a couple of nights ago, won the Autumn Nations Cup. Like-

Diren Kartal 35:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:47 ... all of the guys that are playing that game were probably went down and played kids' rugby at 10 years old or something-

Diren Kartal 35:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:55 ... and then 15 years later, are winning the Autumn Nations Cup on the biggest stage in the world for England. Like-

Diren Kartal 36:01 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:01 ... that's not necessarily their choice to fi- They just stumbled upon it, and then they went all in.

Diren Kartal 36:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:09 For other people... And I think that's probably a really interesting and important point for people to remember, that those people that you see, yes, they are living their why, yes, they're bearing a very difficult, and hardworking, and emphatic how, but that's not the same as you. Just because they didn't have to work at finding their why, they found it when they were 10 years old somehow-

Diren Kartal 36:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:33 ... doesn't mean that you shouldn't, uh, compare yourself to them.... they're a-

Diren Kartal 36:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:37 ... international level athlete that's played this sport since they were a child, they probably can't remember life-

Diren Kartal 36:42 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:42 ... without playing this sport. Or a musician, you know, that's come about and was naturally talented and sang, or a dancer or anybody that's done something-

Diren Kartal 36:49 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:49 ... from when they were young, perhaps you have to work, perhaps the price that you have to pay to find your why-

Diren Kartal 36:54 Yeah. Well-

Chris Williamson 36:54 ... is putting the work in.

Diren Kartal 36:56 Yeah. Yeah, 100%. And I, I think, I think that happens quite a lot because I think parenting comes into play there, you know, I think it's really important. I, I know when I'm a parent one day, hopefully one day, I will know, when my kid's playing, that he's, he's gonna be... he's gonna have, he's gonna have my genes, so there's gonna be something in there that I know I'm, I'm gonna recognize from whether it's the way he or she moves, or what they say, it's, it's, it's coming from my gene pool, right? So, I will know if I see him do something and they hate it, I'm not gonna force them to do it, you know? I feel like smart parenting will put and advocate their kids, when they see something that they love or they love doing, and then they kind of push them towards that instead of getting them to do things where, um, that they dislike. Like all those rugby players, their dad or whatever must have been a rugby fan, whoever it is, may- not, maybe not all of them, but majority probably, right? "I started football 'cause my dad loved football. I started football 'cause my dad loved football." You know? And, um, with them, um, they didn't kind of have to work with their why, but as soon as they found it and they loved it, they just carried on, carried on, and it's pro- it's... To those athletes, it's not work to them, you know? They hustle hard, they know their why, and which is why they are where they are, you know? And, uh, and like you said, it doesn't matter how old you are or whatever it is, if you need to work for it, you need to work for it, you need to find it, and anyone can fucking find it. It's just, if you say you can't, it's just, it's kind of excuses really. Like, you can, (laughs) it's just excuses.

Chris Williamson 38:35 Spending enough time as well exposing yourself to new cultures, as we said earlier on, is such a great way to do it, spending your su- spending your time, exposing yourself to new, uh, experiences. The number of people who complain about not having a purpose or about being a little bit lost in life, without doing anything new...

Diren Kartal 38:55 How would you know?

Chris Williamson 38:56 But i- it's like you're judge, jury, and executioner on a guilty verdict. It's like-

Diren Kartal 39:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:02 ... hang on a second, like I, I'm causing this problem and then complaining about the problem on the backend.

Diren Kartal 39:07 Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 39:08 The, the only way that you're going to do this is if you do the explore time.

Diren Kartal 39:12 100%. You need to, you need to explore. You need to explore different countries, you need to explore... you need to explore talking to different people. Like, there's people with the same fucking friend circle since they were five years old. I'm like, "Bruv, step outside a little bit, meet someone new innit, stop, like get out of that little clique." I mean if nothing's happening, it's probably your, you're probably not in the right group. If you're the smartest in the room, you're in the wrong room, you know, just get out there, you know? And I think, yeah, it's just one of those things I think people... again, the fear of changing, the fear of maybe upsetting people, the fear of what other people think of you, yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:48 You said something to me that stuck in Dubai, you said that calling off an engagement that you had-

Diren Kartal 39:54 Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:55 ... was one of the best things that you ever did in your life. Can you, can you-

Diren Kartal 39:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:59 ... explain why and take us through that story?

Diren Kartal 40:01 Oh, basically, um, I was with the... I was with this, I was with this, uh, I was with the same girl since I was 17 to like 25, right? And, uh, she was a good person, like good person. No- had nothing to do with her, she was a great person, it was good timing for her, for me it wasn't. I was too young. I, I kind of knew my why, I knew my why, I was alwa- I'm, I've alwa- I've, I've always been driven, I've always wanted... I've wanted to accomplish big things, um, I've never really seen myself or been lazy. Whether... either if I'm living in a different country or whatever it is, I always, like, try to tackle a problem and, uh, still achieve whatever it is I want to achieve. But, there came a point where someone else's happiness was really affecting mine, and I felt like I was like a part of a show where I wasn't getting no bonuses, where I wasn't getting paid. I was like, "I feel like I'm a part of the show, I feel like I'm the main guy of the show, but I'm not getting paid, I'm not happy" (laughs) you know?

Chris Williamson 41:08 What does that mean? Oh, you're not happy.

Diren Kartal 41:09 ... in... I'm not happy, yeah. Like, I'm not getting paid, I'm not happy. That, that, that, that's what I mean by that. And I wasn't happy, I was like, "Hold on, she's happy, their family's happy, these people are happy, what the fuck am I doing here? Why am I here?" Some average-

Chris Williamson 41:26 What did, what did not happy feel like? What did it mean? Were you-

Diren Kartal 41:30 Bruv, it was, it was weird. I, I've nev- I've... I s- I don't think I've ever been depressed, I, I kind of don't even know what depressed is, maybe I, maybe I-

Chris Williamson 41:38 You're annoyingly positive, Diran, you're annoyingly positive, that's what you are.

Diren Kartal 41:42 I, I know-

Chris Williamson 41:43 (laughs)

Diren Kartal 41:43 ... but it's like th- am I, uh, (laughs) I know, but I'm not even like... I'm not even trying-

Chris Williamson 41:48 I know you're not, that's what makes it annoying.

Diren Kartal 41:50 (laughs) Yeah, I know, I know, 'cause you know what? There's nothing more annoying than that fucking positive guy, but look at the positive-

Chris Williamson 41:55 That's you, that's you.

Diren Kartal 41:57 (laughs) Yeah, but honestly, I'm not like... at least you know it's not fake, you know? At least you know it's not fake, right? And I was trying to look at the positives, and I was like, "Hold on." So, this is the moment where I thought about the future, right? When all, when all this was happening, I was like, "Okay, so what? I'm gonna get married." I don't know why the fuck I proposed in the first place. I just thought... it was pressure from other people, pressure from her, you know? Like anyone that's listening to this, any guys, if your partner is telling you bruv, looking at rings and giving you subtle fucking... tell 'em to be quiet, and if, if the time is right, if you want to do it, you will do it anyway, you know? And it's those sort of pressures that got to... got me to a point where I was doing...... taking action on other people's happiness and other people's decisions, right? And I was so unhappy at that point, and I was like, "All right, let me do some calculations here. I'm in Australia," 'cause, uh, the girl was Australian. Uh, that's why I had such a connection to Australia. Uh, that's why I've got residency in Australia. I was in Australia. I was like, "Okay, I'm living on the suburbs of Sydney, not even in the city of Sydney." I've moved from the heart of London. I'm such a London city boy, and you've took me to the suburbs where Jimmy Billy Bob is calling, "Yeah, Darrin. Darrin, mate." And I'm like, "No, it's not Darrin, it's Darrin, man."

Chris Williamson 43:18 (laughs)

Diren Kartal 43:18 "It's fucking Darrin. My name is fucking Darrin, bro. (laughs) Like get it right. (laughs) Get it right, fam." You know? I'm somewhere like... It's somewhere called the Hills, uh, the Hills area, which is like... I was in like Baulkham Hills in Sydney, and I was like, "Okay, so I'm going to get married. Uh, I'm probably going to be forced to have kids, right? I want kids, but there's... I want kids when the time is right. I'm going to buy a house. I'm going to get a mortgage." I had like a deposit. I had a deposit at that point. I was 25, man. I had a deposit in that. I had a deposit with her in my bank account. You know what I mean? But oh yeah, spending that after was the best time of my life. (laughs) I- I'll get to that in a minute. (laughs) So I like sat there, and I was, I was, I was doing these calculations, and I was like, "I don't know when I'm going to see my family." My family live in, um, in London, and I'm 24 hours away, and I'm really close with my family. I'm really close with my family, and I know I've got the power to be able to do things in my life, where I can look after my whole family, which is one of my priorities. Like I want my sister to live good. I want my mom and my dad to live good, you know? I want, I want them to experience things that I've experienced, you know? And for me to do that, I need an element of freedom. I need to be able to take off. I need to be able to do whatever it is I want to do without basing no decision or worrying about, "Oh, if I say this or if I do this, it's going to upset this person." Like I can't move like that, you know? If you want to... If you want to achieve something, then there is that bit of a barrier, right? So I was like, "No, fuck this. I can't do this." Ended up calling off the wedding, um-

Chris Williamson 44:53 How did that conversation go down?

Diren Kartal 44:56 Bruv, it was mad. It was mad, man. (laughs) It wa- (laughs) It was... I was crying, I was upset. I couldn't even... I couldn't even say the words because I was talking to someone that was my best friend at the time, and I was talking to someone trying to tell them that their problem is not you... literally isn't you. It's just that I need to do certain things in my life to be happy in the long run, because I don't want to be that 40-year-old that's hiring prostitutes and then coming home and kissing my wife, bruv. I didn't want to be that guy, (laughs) you know? And the truth is, I would have been that guy. And... (laughs) I would have been that guy, you know? And I didn't want to be that. So when that conversation went down, it was kind of a conversation where she knew she kind of said it. And I was like, "I just need time to think. I need time to think. I need to go off." And I, I kind of ran away from my problems for a bit. That's where the me up 24/7 came up. I was doing like 30, for- 30,000, 40,000 steps a day not to go home. It was crazy.

Chris Williamson 45:54 Running from your engagement?

Diren Kartal 45:56 Mate, running from my problems instead of tackling them, you know? And I was younger. I was o- I was younger, obviously, so I wasn't as... I was, I was, I wasn't as mature as I am now, so I would have had that conversation very differently now, but it doesn't matter. But, um, I went to Perth, saw some friends. I didn't have anyone around me that was close to me that could actually understand. The closest person was her and her family, y-

Chris Williamson 46:20 I want to go back just a little bit. So you're very insulated-

Diren Kartal 46:24 If that's fine.

Chris Williamson 46:24 ... in this situation. You're in a relationship that you've decided is wrong. You don't necessarily have anyone or many people to support you in that decision. What got you over that inertia of getting to say the words? Because I think that is an element that a lot of people get stuck on. Maybe more guys to girls. They just see them as so fragile, even though they're not. They would be much... They would be absolutely fine dealing with it. They'd be upset, but they would get over it.

Diren Kartal 46:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:55 But I think guys, speaking from personal experience, a lot of the time, I- I'll obsess over this, the breakup conversation because I'm so terrified that it's going to destroy them. First off, it's like incredibly egotistic to believe that you, (laughs) you leaving their life is going to absolutely destroy them for the rest of their lives. It's like they, they, they will get over you. It might take a little while, but they will get over you.

Diren Kartal 47:14 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:15 Um, a- a- and secondly, I just think it, it, it kind of... it stops us... it stopped me for a long time from having a conversation that I knew that I needed to have. So I'm fascinated as to you... how you, as someone who didn't have that support structure, found the courage to say it.

Diren Kartal 47:32 Bro, it was like... Honestly, I was like crying. I couldn't breathe. Like (laughs) I couldn't breathe, bro. I was like... The words weren't coming out my mouth, (laughs) you know? It was mad. And like, she was sitting next to me and she was like, "It's okay, you can... It's okay, you can tell me." And I was like... And I told her. The worst bit is that, uh, that she's a good person, and I knew it would fucking hit her hard, and I knew... And, and I know a lot of people have anxiety and all that shit, and I knew what sort of outcome it would have for a certain amount of time, and I know how much it would affect her more so than me, you know? Don't get me wrong. And I'll say this loud and clear, I didn't get a boner for like three weeks, mate. I was so depressed about... (laughs) You know, my head was... my head was gone. My head was gone, you know? I couldn't function. I got to the stage where I was coming into PT and I couldn't even... I'm like... I've realized at one session, I was like, "I'm talking about my fucking problems to my client." I said, "I need a week off. I can't be doing this." I said, "This is bad service." (laughs) This is... Although my clients loved me and they, they kept asking me if you're... I'm okay, I just didn't want to be that guy. So when I had that conversation, going back to that-I told her, I said, "I d- I don't wanna get married. I don't wanna get married." She said, "Why?" I'm like, "Because it doesn't feel right. It just doesn't feel right." I'm like, "I'm sorry but, I, I wanna... There's a lot of things that I wanna accomplish in my life and the truth is, I can't act freely with having the pressure of paying a mortgage, worrying about someone being home alone, worrying about how, um, what they might think, what their family might think, you know? Worrying about, 'Ooh, let's all go on a family holiday, all the family. Oh, let's kids, let's go in a family...' I don't wanna fucking do that. I don't wanna do that, man. I don't wanna come and listen to... I don't wanna do that, you know?" I'm just telling everyone that's listening what a- most of the guys that wanna achieve something, that's what, that's what it is. They don't wanna go. So don't force people to do what they don't wanna do because it ends up in shambles (laughs) , you know? And I've said it like that and obviously... Listen, and any couple, any person that's listening to this, no matter how much you think that person loves you, no matter how much you think their decision, everything they do is for you, it's a fucking lie. Everything that most people do and what they should do is for their self, right? Me being there and being there for that person is gonna make them happy, so that's why they want me there, right? And you have to calculate that in your head. And yeah, it's maybe a bit egotistic but the truth is, you have a value which is why they like you so much. And if you're not getting that back, then it's a shit contract to be in. (laughs) You know what I mean? It's not-

Chris Williamson 50:33 I always think about it, I always think about it like getting on a roller coaster. So before you get into a relationship with someone, you're kind of watching from the outside, you obviously only know a little bit. It's like you're stood in the line, and then you watch-

Diren Kartal 50:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 50:45 ... a little bit of the roller coaster go by and you're like, "Holy fucking shit, that looks so exciting. Look at all the turns, everyone's having a great time, it looks so exciting and new and different." And then if you wait in line for ages and finally get yourself into a relationship to find out that it's like the little ladybird ride that the three-year-olds-

Diren Kartal 51:03 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:03 ... get to go on, and it's just a loop that does the same thing all the time, it does exactly what you want, that's not why you waited in line. And if it is what you wanted, if you waited in line to get on that particular roller coaster looking at it being exciting in an effort to wrangle it down and turn it into the ladybird ride, then that's not really a very successful foundation to build a relationship on.

Diren Kartal 51:23 It's not, man. And the problem is, your happiness, uh, uh, my happiness shouldn't be relied on someone else making me happy, which is the biggest problem, right? And it puts pressure on both parties. It puts pressure on, uh, the person that, um, has to kinda keep him happy, that's what happened. "You make me so happy, you complete me." That's fucking bullshit, bro. It's bullshit! But it annoys me so much when I see this online, I'm like, "You're lying. Stop commenting under that picture because you're sitting next to her. Say it to her face, bro. Don't say I love you on the picture, say it to her face, man. We see it already, you know?" And I'm so, like, passionate about this because I see through bullshit, right? And I just can't help call it out, and my friends are like, "Dude, nah, nah. You're just, it's from your experience." I'm like, "It's not from my experience," well, yeah, obviously from my experience I've learned, but I can see it. I can see it. If the part, if you, whoever you're seeing is not happy with what they're doing and their whole happiness is relied on yourself, then, um, at some point, it's gonna crash. I think you need to find a, a best friend that loves what they're doing, you love what you're doing, you can have fun together, there's no pressure between each other, you know? And you bring it together like that. If one party or the other party relies on you for happiness, I just think it ends up... I, I think it ends up in shambles. And I'm not, uh... Listen, I'm not a relationship expert, I'm not, but I, I think I'm quite smart with reading into, not reading into people, but seeing things and after experiencing things, I have a better idea of things, you know? I don't wanna come across as this, "Ooh, who the fuck is this relationship guru?" I'm not. I'm not that.

Chris Williamson 53:11 Not a relationship coach. Um-

Diren Kartal 53:13 (laughs) I'm not, yeah.

Chris Williamson 53:15 Think about what that sentence says, "You complete me." The converse of that is, "I am incomplete without you." That's not right.

Diren Kartal 53:24 Nah, that's not right.

Chris Williamson 53:24 That's not the way that it should be. So I-

Diren Kartal 53:26 It's not right.

Chris Williamson 53:27 ... I, I, I had Daniel Sloss, Netflix comedian who did Jigsaw-

Diren Kartal 53:30 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 53:30 ... he has a tally of how many breakups and divorces his, his specials caused on his, uh, Twitter bio. And, um-

Diren Kartal 53:38 Good.

Chris Williamson 53:38 ... in that he says people will prefer to choose a partner who is a terrible fit than be alone. He also says that you need to learn to love yourself before you can let somebody else love you. And he also says that the vast majority of people don't choose someone who's right, they choose someone who's there. And when you combine all of those things together, all of which I think are perfectly true-

Diren Kartal 54:00 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:00 ... that with pressures from mum, dad, their side, your side, "My mates got married," or, "Why don't we move in? We should get engaged," it doesn't surprise me. I think the divorce rate's like 65% at the moment. So more than half of the marriages that begin end in separation. Why?

Diren Kartal 54:21 Well, I don't, I don't... Honestly, again, I'm not being anti or whatever, I'm not trying to be negative. I- the positive guy here is not trying to (laughs) be negative. But, like, when you sign a contract to get married, right? Right, you... How is that fucking different? What, are you treating them differently? How... Like, if you're treating them differently after you sign the contract to say that you're married, then that is wrong, you know? Like, it shouldn't make a difference at all. All it does, it gives the other party safety. And safety, in my eyes, is...It's not good. I don't think it's healthy. I feel like you don't need to be on your toes, but you need to be... Keep the spice in it. You got to keep the spice somehow. And when people get comfortable, when it's like, "Yep, the whole ball and chain and that's it, you know, we're together forever." But no, you tell someone that you're getting this forever, the work rate is going to drop. You know what I mean? Imagine, hey Chris, imagine if they said to you, uh, your sponsor said to you, "We're going to be paying you forever." Your podcasts episodes will probably go down, you might naturally get lazy. You might, because you're guaranteed for life now, bro, you know? So what's the point of putting more effort in, you know? And it just, it upsets me because I see so many friends with such potential to, like, do amazing things, and it's not their partner stopping them, it's them stopping them, you know. It's their selves stopping their selves. And again, this isn't me... If you have... Listen, if you have the right person there for you, then you can achieve a lot of things, don't get me wrong. Like, I'm not trying to say you can't achieve anything being in a relationship. I'm not saying that at all. All I'm saying is you shouldn't base decisions, and you should be happy on your own first. Because when I first did what I had to do and I moved out, I got kicked out of my flat. Yeah, I got kicked out, yeah. (laughs) It was a madness. Like, "Get the fuck out." I was like, "Bruh."

Chris Williamson 56:19 (laughs)

Diren Kartal 56:19 I was like, "Shit." (laughs) I was like, "Ugh." Okay. Uh, when that happened and I, I found a new place on my own, family's in London, I've got friends in Sydney, but family's different, right? First time I moved in, I moved all my stuff in, bro. I sat down and I cried, bruv. I was like, that was the first time I was alone. Like, I was alone. And it w-

Chris Williamson 56:39 First time since 17, now 25.

Diren Kartal 56:41 Yeah, I was alone. Like, I was alone. I was sitting down, I was alone. Like, I was alone in the room, I had no one to text, you know? I had no one to text. I had no Instagram followers either. (laughs) So there, so there was no DMs coming through, Chris. (laughs) There was no DMs. There was no DMs coming through. And so I was like, "Fuck." I was like, "This is shit, bruv. I know what I'm going to do, I'm gonna go get my knee up 24/7." (laughs) And, but then I enjoyed my own company. And since then I love my own space. I love my own space, like, I love it, I love it. I love my own space and yeah, so that's that, yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:20 You can imagine there's a different world, a different universe where Diran doesn't have that conversation. Where Diran's still in a relationship, he's now living in Perth or Sydney or Adelaide. Two kids maybe, house mortgaged up to the eyes.

Diren Kartal 57:35 Bruv, it, it makes... It m- It scares me a little bit. It scares me a little bit. It scares me a little bit because I didn't, I didn't do the what most typical people do from 17 to 25. I didn't do it, so I felt like I missed out, you know? I felt like I didn't make the mistakes, I didn't do stupid things, you know? And again, it's not even... Like, don't get me wrong, man. It's the... When I talk about freedom, I'm not talking about trying to go bang everything that I see. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about going, "I'm booking a fucking flight today and I'm off because I don't have to answer to no one." You know, that's what I'm talking about. I don't want people to misunderstand that. I'm not trying to... That, that, if you're doing it for that, then I think it's the wrong reason. And if you want to, I guess you can. But, like, I'm not saying it for that reason, I want to make that clear. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 58:23 I have a buddy who was big, big into pickup artistry for a long time and was doing day game and night game and sleeping with a bunch of girls and stuff. And I remember asking him, I was like, "Fucking hell, man, like, you're really, you're really passionate about pickup art history." He's like, "Yeah, man, like, my future wife's gonna be so thankful." I'm like, "Okay, uh, I can't wait to see you try and justify this one to me of how your future wife's going to be thankful that you're shagging literally everything." He's like, "Well, think about it, man. I'm 45 years old and I'm walking down the street holding my wife's hand, we've got our two kids in the stroller, and a Brazilian chick walks past. I don't want to think in the back of my mind, 'I wonder what it's like to fuck a Brazilian chick.' I want to know-"

Diren Kartal 59:04 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 59:04 "... and I want to, I want to tick off all of the different sexual desires that I have, all of the different adventure desires that I have." And I wonder whether now... We've still got quite a classic model for relationships. People look at someone who's 30 or in their 30s and still single, and it's still a little bit like, "All right, mate, like fucking good timing, but the, you know, the clock's ticking a little bit," if you were to look at wider society overall. But we also have this wanderlust, entrepreneurial, Gary Vee, hustle and grind, go and get it, you can make anything of yourself that you want world.

Diren Kartal 59:42 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:42 So we have, we have this very traditional world for relationships smashing up against this very new wave world for careers.

Diren Kartal 59:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:54 Those, those two things don't combine. And I wonder how much that's contributing to this current dissatisfaction and divorce rate that we're seeing in, in relationships.

Diren Kartal 1:00:03 Bro, I'm not gonna lie, th- when I sold my story, when I told my story first on, like, my podcast, um, I had so many messages saying, "Diran, I just broke up with my partner." (laughs) I was like-

Chris Williamson 1:00:17 Fucking hell.

Diren Kartal 1:00:17 ... "Oh shit." I was like, "Oh shit." I was like, "Why?" Because what you said is exactly how I'm feeling. And I was like, "Well, good for you then." You know what I mean? You got to do what's best for you, you know? And that's, and that's the truth, you got to do what's best for you and you got to be selfish. And even if you have a family, kids, got to make sure you're happy before you make the kids happy, you know? I mean, there's a reason when you're on a flight they give you, you get the oxygen first, right? So I think that's how you should look at it, if I'm being honest.

Chris Williamson 1:00:44 I agree.

Diren Kartal 1:00:45 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:45 Uh, have you changed your mind on anything this year?

Diren Kartal 1:00:50 Have I changed my mind on anything? Uh, that's a good question, you know. I like that, bruv. That's a sick question. Have I changed my mind on anything?I think I've stopped biting back at trolls as much (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 1:01:06 Why?

Diren Kartal 1:01:07 Uh, 'cause it's a waste of fucking time. It's a waste of time, man. And I've realized, like, what's the point of wasting my energy to that when I can use it for more useful things. You know? When the- when- when the time is right, I- I s- I still bite back when I need to for a message, but I- I don't bite back as much as I used to. And, um, my manager had a conversation with me once after I saw something that really frustrated me, and I wanted to fight back, and I wanted to, like, I wanted to go hard on this troll, but he was like, "No, what's the point?" And he- he kind of dropped me a few words, and I was like, "You know what? You're right. There was no point of me even wasting my energy to this when I could use it for good, you know?" So, I think that's one thing I've changed my mind on this year. I'm a lot more chilled with, um, trolls that come at me, which isn't that- that many actually, but when they come, they come pretty solid.

Chris Williamson 1:01:59 There's a- a point that you get to in terms of exposure where you start to attract a little bit of criticism online, and then obviously that goes right up to the- the full, deep trolling.

Diren Kartal 1:02:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:13 And, um, there's no training course on that.

Diren Kartal 1:02:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:16 Like, you know, you just kind of get dropped into it. Yeah, maybe that's part of the price that you have to pay if you want to have a platform and you want to build up a- a brand or whatever.

Diren Kartal 1:02:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:26 But it's not like- it's not like someone, a- as soon as you get blue-ticked or as soon as you get to 100,000 subs on YouTube or whatever it is, it's not like someone just arrives with a media pack that helps you to deal with the inevitable increased criticism that you're going to get.

Diren Kartal 1:02:42 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:42 And I think, um, I- I definitely think that letting it go is a good one, man. So, if that's something that you've learned from this year, I think that's a- a pretty good lesson to take away, and it's gonna make your life much easier. So, what about next year? Is there anything that you're going to improve on, anything that you're gonna work on yourself personally?

Diren Kartal 1:02:58 Uh, next year, um, I want to make, uh, my Project X product. I wanna- I wanna be the best- I wanna be the best accountability platform as a coach on that, and I'm gonna make it- it's gonna happen. Like, there's no other way about it. It's gonna happen. I'm gonna make sure people... I wanna make sure I can get my message across to as many people as possible to help them with not only their- not only their health, but their mindset as well. And I think if you have... Okay, like I- I- I don't like- I don't like the word influencer, but like, who gives a fuck? We influence people, right? We've got the power to influence people. I feel like if I don't do that as much as I can, I feel like it's a bit of a waste. So, that's my goal. My goal for next year is to get my message across to as many people as possible, uh, whether it's my podcast, whether it's my, um, program, whether it's, uh, live events. Uh, I wanna be able to talk and get myself out there as much as possible, and travel more.

Chris Williamson 1:03:57 We gotta get COVID-

Diren Kartal 1:03:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:58 Gotta get COVID out the way first. Man, I- I really like it.

Diren Kartal 1:04:00 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:00 You know, it's a- it's a pleasure watching you and James and- and Paul and the rest of the guys kind of go on this little journey. I think it's a cool- it's a cool little community we've got, although we're spread across the world, you know. Like, Sonny and James are over there, me, you, and-

Diren Kartal 1:04:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:13 ... everybody else is stuck in the UK at the moment, but um-

Diren Kartal 1:04:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:16 Yeah, I think it's- I think it's nice, and, uh, like again, one of the best things that I think's happened within the last two to three years has been this movement toward... How would you say? Realistic, effective training and diet.

Diren Kartal 1:04:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:34 You remember, like five to ten years ago, where it was bodybuilding.com, and it was kind of just everything was bro science. Even the science was bro science.

Diren Kartal 1:04:42 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:42 And now- now it's much more about, how can we make sure that you're compliant, make sure that you're integrating your training plan, make sure that you're doing it every single day, that you're sticking to your rules, and that it permits you to have a life? You're not trying to be a fucking professional athlete. You do not need to be 8% body fat, and here is 2,000 pieces of content from different people across the world telling you that that's the case.

Diren Kartal 1:05:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:05 And I think, um, I think that movement, like, long may it continue, man. You know, as someone who's been in and out of the fitness world for a long time, I think it's a really-

Diren Kartal 1:05:12 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:12 ... really good movement, so yeah.

Diren Kartal 1:05:14 100%.

Chris Williamson 1:05:14 Anyone who wants to find out more about you, where should they go? What do you wanna plug?

Diren Kartal 1:05:19 Oh, um, you'll find me Darren Cartel on Instagram. It's A-L with a Cartel, not E-L. Uh, if you need me, www.darrencartel.com. I've got my podcast, The Darren Cartel Show. You can find it everywhere, and yeah, that's it really. YouTube, all over. If you search Darren Cartel anywhere, you'll see me. Um, bro, thank you for having me on, man. It's been a pleasure. I really enjoyed this one. You asked really good questions.

Chris Williamson 1:05:43 Thank you, man. Until next time. We'll, uh- we'll have to plan another trip out to Dubai.

Diren Kartal 1:05:47 100%, bro.

Chris Williamson 1:05:50 <<No offense. Get away, yeah. No offense.>>