Modern WisdomHinge's Relationship Scientist Gives Dating Advice - Logan Ury
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
145 min read · 28,595 words- 0:00 – 0:30
Intro
- LULogan Ury
... people don't wanna choose a restaurant, choose a hotel, choose a purchase without doing tons of research, which is fine if you're going to Tulum and choosing among 16 Airbnbs, but it's not fine when you are choosing among thousands of potential partners. And so, what does this era of maximizers do? They always keep swiping, saying, "Who else is out there?"
- CWChris Williamson
Logan Ury, welcome to the show.
- LULogan Ury
Thank you so much for having me. I was very excited to receive this invitation.
- 0:30 – 5:48
Being Hinge’s Relationship Scientist
- CWChris Williamson
What does being the director of relationship science at Hinge entail?
- LULogan Ury
You know, it's really a dream job. And if I can just go off-topic right from the beginning, I recently found an email from March 29th, 2012, where I emailed a guy at OkCupid, who I had met in an event, and I was clearly trying to network with him, and I was like, "How was your move to LA? By the way, I'd love to work at OkCupid." And, you know, no response, totally ghosted. And now I'm like, wow, 10 years later and I have this job that I've essentially been trying to get for over a decade. Just feels so good, and it's also a really healthy reminder that when you see people's careers, you're really seeing their final product, the highly edited version. You don't see all the emails that not just were, they were told no to, but all the emails where they just didn't even get a response, and so-
- CWChris Williamson
Even, not even enough respect to get the reply. Yeah.
- LULogan Ury
Not even a response, yeah. And so, my job at Hinge is incredible because I basically get to conduct research into dating, and I get to have these amazing moments where I'm like, okay, what am I hearing from my friends and my dating coaching clients? For example, I'm hearing a lot about women dating guys with lower sex drives. The guy is depressed, what's going on? Do they wanna date the depressed guy? Can they overcome the low sex drive issue? How do they support a depressed partner? Certainly, they wanna be dating someone who's in therapy. And then I bring that back to Hinge, and then we conduct research on things like, um, has talking about mental health gone from a stigmatized topic to actually a must-have? And so we did this great research around the end of 2021 where we found that, um, 86% of people say it's really important to them to date someone who is in therapy and who prioritizes their mental health. And in fact, people would be more likely to go on a second date with you if you say on the first date that you go to therapy. And so I basically get to take topics that I'm hearing about through my one-to-one coaching or my friends are just being aware of the dating zeitgeist, bring it to Hinge, conduct research with some amazing researchers, and then share it with the world and say, like, "Hey, this is what's happening in dating right now."
- CWChris Williamson
Are you doing the data science for this, or have you got a team that works below you to, to pull all of that?
- LULogan Ury
Yeah, I have amazing research collaborators. Um, so I am really coming in with a lot of the hypotheses and then working closely with the researchers, and we do have some amazing data scientists, but I am not doing the data science myself. It is funny because when I... Uh, I had met my husband in college, but when I really met him was when we were both working at Google. He was a data scientist, and I was learning a data science language called R, and I was like, "I'm looking for an R tutor." And he's like, "I just dropped out of a PhD program. Hello, girl at the lunch table. Can I tutor you in R every day?" And so anyway, data science and R have a very close place in my heart. But I would say I am, I ended up being much better at being with my husband than writing R. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Writing his programming language.
- LULogan Ury
Yeah, I'm not good at it.
- CWChris Williamson
So what else, if, if that's one of them, so m- men-
- LULogan Ury
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... with low libido, um, and the challenges that that has in relationships-
- LULogan Ury
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... men suffering with mental health and depression. What are some of the other trends that you've discovered over the last couple of years?
- LULogan Ury
Sure, yeah. And I would say that one wasn't that gendered. It was, like, pretty broad. It was just like, hey, the last few years have been so hard. I don't know a person who hasn't been dealing with depression, anxiety, not sleeping. Like, I think everyone's kinda gone through something rough. So it was, I would say, more broadly, just what is happening in the dating world with mental health and how people are not only talking about it, but wanna be talking about it. Um, another one that I just conducted and wrapped up last week was about the role of asking for advice in Gen Z. So, Gen Z, as you can imagine, very anxious generation, notoriously. Very digital, obviously. So if you think about Sex and the City, the TV show, people would, you know, the women would go to brunch on Sunday and talk to their friends about the last guy they had sex with. Well, now it's like every text message can be screenshotted, every profile can be shared, every message that you're about to send, you can ask the, you know, the group chat, "What should I say?" And so it's basically turned all these elements of dating into this crowdsourced thing where you almost have this war room and you're like, "Okay, guys, what are we writing?" And yeah, maybe you write a more clever text, but, like, the actual relationship is between you and the person that you're dating. And when you are lying in bed with them, paying attention to how you feel, that is not something that you can outsource or crowdsource. And so the message for me behind that research was basically saying to Gen Z, you all are way too reliant on your friends for advice, and your friends should be your cheerleaders. They should be the people encouraging you, um, helping you achieve your goals. They should not be the coach telling you what those goals are. And so really helping Gen Z, in particular, learn this is what it's like to tune in to how you feel, this is how to build up those muscles, and actually, you need to rely on yourself because you are the one in the relationship. Your, your posse is not dating that person, you are.
- CWChris Williamson
I think
- 5:48 – 12:11
Impact of Surveillance on Dating
- CWChris Williamson
one of the most interesting realizations I've had from when I went to uni 15 years ago to now, we used to run an event called Carnage, which is exactly as it sounds. It was a big bar crawl-
- LULogan Ury
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... and everyone wore a T-shirt, and on the back of the T-shirt-
- LULogan Ury
Oh, right, that's amazing.
- CWChris Williamson
... there were different tasks that you had to do, like-
- LULogan Ury
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... pull a pig-... snog three randoms-
- LULogan Ury
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... like, steal someone else's hat. You know, like, stuff that is so cancelable. Like-
- LULogan Ury
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... any one of those-
- LULogan Ury
Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... would be worthy of cancellation right now.
- LULogan Ury
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, and I was having this conversation with a friend a while ago, uh, who used to be another franchisee like myself when we were both 19, 20. And we were talking about how we don't see the same sort of messy, sloppy dance floor kissing nights out that we would have facilitated perhaps when we started running events. And he said something that was really interesting that was you basically have perpetual state surveillance that's done by gullible volunteers because everybody has a CCTV camera in their pocket.
- LULogan Ury
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And whereas previously you could make whatever catastrophic error you wanted and the most people that could find out about it were the friends of your friends who they maybe were able to tell individually over Blackberry PIN or something. Like, there was no way to facilitate your failings be bro- being broadcast to the world. And I think that that does create even in-person, uh, forget online dating, that facilitates an in-person sort of Sword of Damocles thing where everyone's just feeling like there's something hovering over their head at that whole time. And it's difficult to just let yourself feel at ease when that's happening.
- LULogan Ury
Oh, yeah. I absolutely agree with that and I, I hadn't thought about it in a while, but I recently spent a day with someone who's 10 years younger than me who went to the same university and we were just comparing notes and there were so many elements of her experience that I just couldn't... I, I just had never thought about. And so for example, having a dating app while you're in college and really understanding does that mean that you just e- are exposed to more people at your university than you would have been otherwise? Does it mean that, um, everyone at your school is hooking up with people at other schools? Like, you know, I went to Harvard and so it was nice for Harvard women to be able to date Harvard men but if Harvard men are on dating apps, now you're competing with women at the many, many universities in Boston. And so what does that mean for the Harvard social life and, like, I don't really know. And then, kind of exactly what you were talking about, it's like we had, you know, when I walked into college, we had flip phones. I had a cute pink flip phone and then I got a Blackberry, but the cameras were so bad and so I would have, you know, a camera that I might take out, but that's really different from obviously, like, live streaming or Instagram stories and, yeah, dance floor make outs, a really fun part of going to college. And so w- we didn't, she and I didn't talk about that, but it is fascinating to think about if there's always a part of your brain thinking that you're being recorded, what does that do to you? And, you know, this idea of, of surveillance or the opticon or something like that. It's, like, I imagine that it does change your psychology because kind of as another example, um, I spent 24 hours last week with a reporter from The New York Times, and so it's like there's what I'm saying and then there's the part of my brain that's making sure that what I'm saying is okay, right? And so that's, like, doing double duty, and I was very tired afterwards because I was cognitively overloaded with, like, what I'm saying and making sure that it's okay. And so if your whole brain is what I'm doing and then making sure I wouldn't be upset if this were recorded or shared, like, that just actually seems really inauthentic and exhausting.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, when you're externalizing... Or you're playing a persona, right?
- LULogan Ury
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Every decision that you make and everything that you say gets run through first-
- LULogan Ury
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... the filter of, "Did I come up with it?" And then secondly, the filter of, "Is this okay for me to say? Oh, maybe it's not."
- LULogan Ury
Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"I've got to think about it," and that's not a very sort of easy, graceful way to be. So, what would you say... Well, how would you categorize the sort of messaging that young people are being given around what love and dating and romance is supposed to be in 2022?
- LULogan Ury
Yeah. It's something that I'm actively thinking about. I would say 2022 is a year where I have spent way more time thinking about the Gen Z audience. And so I would say as of now, I'm probably a Millennial dating expert. So that means that I've worked with loads of Millennial clients, a lot of Hinge users are Millennials, so the research and the data I've had access to for two years is based on that. And now it's like, of course, like, what happens with generations, like, people age into the dating market, and so I need to spend way more time understanding that. And as silly as it sounds, I just binge-watched both seasons of Euphoria. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
I haven't watched that. What's that?
- LULogan Ury
Okay. (laughs) It's, like, a really amazing/raunchy show on HBO. It's about a teen dealing with drug addiction, there's a lot of sex, there's a lot of nudity, but it's also just kind of about the, like, over-stimulating, anxious Gen Z high school experience. And, like, who knows how realistic or not that is. I certainly don't think, uh, the clothes are realistic, but, um, it is interesting to think about, like, what does Gen Z know about dating? And so, um, there are some things that are, like, clear trends. So, of course the world is moving in a more fluid direction, and so that means things like gender identity, gender orientation, um, sexual orientation. And so if you think about that applied to dating, you're not necessarily looking for the one or you're not necessarily as focused on this outcome of, like, "I'm gonna get married, I'm gonna be married to one person and I hope it lasts as long as possible." Maybe you're into non-monogamy, maybe you're into having a relationship that's really powerful but you're not focused on marriage, or maybe you don't even want to have kids. Maybe climate change has made you so afraid of the future that, like, having kids sounds preposterous to you. And so it's really interesting to think about what are the cultural forces affecting Gen Z and then how does that show up in their dating? That being said, I do think that we all really do have this natural desire to love and be loved, and so I don't care what's happening on Euphoria, I don't care how many TikToks there are about certain trends, at the end of the day, love and dating and finding someone or someones I still think is very relevant to people.
- CWChris Williamson
Well,
- 12:11 – 18:15
Boomers, Millennials & Gen Z
- CWChris Williamson
yeah. Human biology is a hell of a drug-
- LULogan Ury
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... and you're gonna have to work incredibly hard to, like, front brain out-
- LULogan Ury
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... millions of years of evolution that compels you-
- LULogan Ury
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... to behave in one way. I think... (sighs) I...... I've never felt so much like a boomer as I have recently. I'm a millennial as well.
- LULogan Ury
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
You know, like slap bang in the middle of it. Not even an early-
- LULogan Ury
I was like, "You look great for a boomer." (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Damn right I do. But I've never felt so out of touch.
- LULogan Ury
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And it's crazy to look at, you know... Remember, it wasn't that long ago that millennials were sort of the, the media's-
- LULogan Ury
Totally.
- CWChris Williamson
... common calling card. They were the ones that everybody was-
- LULogan Ury
Totally, that's how I feel.
- CWChris Williamson
... bitching on. And, and now, I'm being looked at and thinking about, you know, stuff to do with gender fluidity, stuff to do-
- LULogan Ury
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... with non-monogamy being not just for certain friends of mine in Austin, but, you know, as a general-
- LULogan Ury
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... scalable-
- LULogan Ury
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... um, opportunity. And I'm like, "This just, it doesn't resonate with me, it doesn't resonate with my friends." And I now am starting to get a sense of what it must have felt like for my parents' generation, looking down at my generation just getting into Facebook and online dating and dick pics and stuff like that, to then roll that forward. So, I guess each new generation can make the older generation feel more boomery than they ever thought they could.
- LULogan Ury
Totally. And I feel the exact same way where I'm like, wait, it feels like two years ago there was an article about millennials are killing dining room furniture, millennials are killing the paper napkin. It was all about how millennials were changing things. Like, I have a friend who is known as the millennial workplace expert. And then boom, now all we're talking about is Gen Z, and I find that so fascinating. And are you a fan of Bo Burnham?
- CWChris Williamson
Yes. I've only seen a little bit of his work, but yes, he's good.
- LULogan Ury
Okay, so I'm a massive Bo Burnham fan, and he has that amazing special that came out last year called Inside. And there's a song on it, I play the song on repeat, but there's a song that's basically like, he was born in 1990, and he was always known as the young guy. And he was always like, "Oh, I can't believe you've accomplished this by that age." And then the song about turning 30, he's like, "Now the zoomers are telling me that I'm out of touch." And so, you're really like, through these very funny lyrics, hearing about his existential crisis about being, like, the young, hip, cool guy pushing the edges, where very few people are going to be like, "I can't believe you accomplished that by 30," 'cause it's like 30 is not considered that young.
- CWChris Williamson
You're supposed to have your shit together.
- LULogan Ury
Yeah. (laughs) Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a... I, I had this conversation not long ago that just getting... No longer being young-
- LULogan Ury
Mm-hmm.
- 18:15 – 28:47
Intentional Dating
- CWChris Williamson
So, what is it... I, I've been thinking about this a lot. I've had a lot of conversations-
- LULogan Ury
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... on the show to do with dating-
- LULogan Ury
Sure.
- CWChris Williamson
... intersexual dynamics, the mating market, imbalances, stuff like that. One of the things that keeps coming up...... is kind of a bit of an ick factor that some people have around anybody that has an intentional approach toward designing a lifestyle around dating. Why, why do you think that is?
- LULogan Ury
Okay, I couldn't think that that was funnier because I'm literally drinking from a mug that says "intentionally ever after"-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- LULogan Ury
... which is the last line of my book. It's about, you know, forget happily ever after and go for intentionally ever after. And so, I'm really, like, ready to put my boxing gloves on and fight this one because, like, this is my entire ethos, it's my perspective. And my viewpoint is that the type of clients that I work with, the people who are drawn to my work, which is not for everyone, it's for a type of person, it's the person who says, um, "If I wanna be healthy, then I might listen to Tim Ferriss or I might be interested in bulletproof coffee. I would listen to these podcasts and take these supplements. If I wanted to get better at personal finances, then I would listen to Ramit Sethi." Like, there's just, like, a self-help world. And so, like, we believe in... We, these people including myself, believe in, like, lifestyle design and saying, like, when you have a goal, you should go after it. You should have people who are experts, you should understand the blind spots, you should understand what makes it hard, and then make a plan. And somehow love feels like it's on this other dimension where we're not allowed to do that. And people put love on a special platform and they won't allow it to be researched or analyzed, and they think that it makes it unromantic. But my entire philosophy is that, yes, love is natural, love is organic. You are born knowing how to love, but you are not born knowing how to date. And dating as we know it is extremely new in the span of human history. So, even the idea of people on their own choosing each other, that happened in around 1890, and there's a great book on this called The Labor of Love by Moira Weigel. Since then, obviously gender dynamics have changed, women being out of the house, in the workplace, like this idea of the shop girl in the 1920s, you know, meeting a guy. But even then, it was like, "Oh, I'm gonna go on a date so I can have a hot meal 'cause I can't afford one otherwise." And then you think online dating started around '94, '95 with Match Group and Kiss.com. Then the dating apps only started a decade ago. So, you were talking about human biology as a hev- hell of a drug, well, you know, evolutionary, evolutionarily we are not designed to choose from thousands of potential options and either, even choose for ourselves. The historical reference is that marriage was an economic institutio- institution where maybe my father would give your father 12 camels for my hand in marriage, and if my land was next to your land, we could combine the two through marriage. And so the idea of people-
- CWChris Williamson
I'd take, I'd take 12 camels for you, Logan.
- LULogan Ury
Okay. (laughs) Thank you so much.
- CWChris Williamson
That's fine.
- LULogan Ury
Uh, flattered.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- LULogan Ury
The idea that people would be marrying for love, the idea that people would be marrying for 70 years, the idea that people would be marrying for self-actualization, that's also new. And so I think that ick factor is people responding to this idea that they want love and dating to be a realm that cannot be analyzed, when actually I'm like, "Hey, this is one of the most important decisions you will make in your life. Who your partner is, that is your number one teammate, that is your number one giver of advice. This is your counsel. And why would you not try to take what this amazing field of relationship science has learned about long-term relationships, attraction, what the field of behavioral science has learned about common biases and how we make mistakes in decision-making, why wouldn't you take all that and then be informed to make the right decision? Just like you'd think about personal finance, accounting, nutrition, fitness, et cetera." This is a science and it can be analyzed, and I think the ick factor is misplaced.
- CWChris Williamson
I think a lot of people see romance as a black box, that there is something magical about it. And there's a, a, a term called conceptual inertia, which I learned about from a history of science researcher, which is that, um, when new insights from science arrive, a lot of the time it takes time for culture to then catch up. So, if you went from Earth being the center of the universe to the Earth revolving around the sun revolving around the galaxy, that switch in terms of models was accepted by science, but only 50 years, 75 years later was it sort of permeated the culture so that people actually started to think and feel like that. So, you have this sort of lagging measure of what people think despite the fact that they may have had something proven in front of them, and I think that insights from evolutionary psychology, from relationship science, all this stuff, takes time to trickle down. And what you're battling against is still a lot of culture, Disneyfication of movies, your Love Actuallys-
- LULogan Ury
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... your rom-coms-
- LULogan Ury
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... that kind of... I mean, it... Is relationship science romantic? It's certainly not romantic in the traditional way. So, you're n- it's very rare that you're going to have, "Here's a movie about a girl who optimized her online dating profile."
- LULogan Ury
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"And after she'd done that, then she decided to go on 37 dates and then pick the next best person-"
- LULogan Ury
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
"... that was there after that because she'd read Algorithms to Lo- to Live By."
- LULogan Ury
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And you go, "That's just not gonna be a movie." So, a lot of the time, with regards to relationships in... presented in common media, you don't have what's optimal being what's shown. You have kind of this idealized, much more naturalistic way. So, I do think there's a tension between those two.
- LULogan Ury
Everything you just said, I agree with, and I think you really nailed the problem. And then I can present my approach, which is slightly different, and I think the cultural inertia thing... Is that what it's called, cultural inertia? Yeah, that makes total sense to me. I mean, even if I'm thinking about, like, climate change and Don't Look Up and, like, why is it so hard for... You know, everyone is paying attention to this thing in pop culture versus what's happening with climate change, and it's like, why are we not paying attention to the science? And I don't know. But yes, in my world, I would say, first of all...What do I think is romantic? What I think is romantic is waking up in bed with my husband after we've been together for seven years, and just being excited to talk. Feeling like your partner is your best friend and it's you against the world. Like, still being excited to have sex and have dinner with someone who you've known for a long time and there is no chase, because essentially you are a team and there is such a foundation of trust. Romance to me is the experience I had over the last two years with my husband, which is, he was diagnosed with a rare form of bone cancer. He went through 18 rounds of chemotherapy, below-the-knee ampute- leg amputation. Crazy shit that you do not expect in year one of marriage. And saying, "I fucking love you. I'm here for you. I- you are much more than your body to me, you are much more than your health to me." And just being like, "I'm all in." Like, to me, that is the essence of romance. I don't think romance is, oh, um, he planned this date where he picked me up in an Uber Black and took me to a cool, expensive sushi restaurant. Like, I don't care. Like, that is courtship. Courtship is lovely. Flirting is lovely. Feeling a connection with someone is lovely. But to me the real romance is the deep connection and trust that you maintain over time. So people who are resisting this, they're basically saying when you apply science to love, you are taking us out of the black box. You are taking us away from the mystery, and you are really focusing on the practical. But life is the practical. Life is doing your taxes. Life is wiping your baby's diaper. Like, that's what life is. Like, it's not the trip to Hawaii. It's not those moments because yes, those are peak moments, but most of life is the average moment where you and this person are saying, "I'm your partner and I'm all in, and let's do this together." And so yes, Disney movies are the way they are. Rom-coms are the way they are. I like the show Bridgerton. But like what I'm really doing, what my role in the universe is right now, is to help people find a long-term partner that is going to help them create a great life. It's not about the reality TV show sparky, in-the-moment feeling because that fades, and I'm really here for the long-term relationships.
- CWChris Williamson
I wonder how much of the black box mentality is also because if people believe that there is a effective strategy to be able to date, that makes them more culpable for their dating failures. Like if it hasn't gone well and it's a black box, then there was nothing that I could have done about it. But if it hasn't gone well and it's because I wasn't sufficiently well-educated or informed or I- I- maybe I messed up, then it's not to do with the magic of Cupid, it's to do with me not knowing enough.
- LULogan Ury
That's a very hot take, and I- I think that's clever and I- I will think about it more, but my gut reaction is that people already feel that way. And so I have a chapter in my book called Why Dating Is Harder Now Than Ever Before. One of the elements of that is that in the past, if your love was negotiated ... Not your love, your marriage, was negotiated for you by your father, by the matchmaker-
- CWChris Williamson
And camels.
- LULogan Ury
... and camels. Can't forget the camels. Then everything was really written for you, right? We- we inherited these identities. So for me, if I had been born 200 years before, let's say I would have been a Jewish woman living in Berlin who knew exactly how to spent my time. My marriage would have been negotiated for me by the local matchmaker. I would have known what I ate, what I wore, how I spent Shabbat, how I raised my children. Everything would have been predetermined for me, and part of modern life is freedom, but that freedom is scary because when you write your own story, if that story sucks, you are the only one to blame. And I think that is the ethos of our modern era. And so I already think that people think, "I haven't found love. It's on me." I don't think that ... You know, as much as people like romance, I don't think that they imagine Cupid just missed his arrow. I really think that if you saw the emails that I get, you'd know people are being extremely hard on themselves and they are taking their lack of success in love as a personal failure, so we're already there.
- 28:47 – 37:04
Making Better Dating Decisions
- LULogan Ury
- CWChris Williamson
How can people learn to be happy with their decisions then? Getting into and getting out of relationships and all of the things therein, without it being about a single incident, what is an overarching way to make better decisions or to be happier with your decisions?
- LULogan Ury
Yeah. So we talked about how I have this intentionally Ever After mug, and I really do believe in this int- intentional approach to love. And so what that might look like, and there's a whole menu of things and people can pick and choose what works for them, but a lot of it is just owning your past behavior. And so in my class Date Smarter, we do this activity called the relationship audit, and people have a lot of resistance to it. They don't necessarily enjoy it. But you basically say, "Who are the people I've dated? Why did it end? What was good about this relationship? What was bad? What side of me did they bring out?" Um, you know, if they understand attachment theory, then was that purses- person anxious or avoidant or secure? So really saying, "What's gone on in my past?" And then looking at your patterns and saying, "Wow, I tend to meet more people in person. Maybe the dating apps aren't a good fit for me." That's a takeaway. Or, "I tend to like someone until they like me back, and then I don't trust them and I run away." Or, "My version of love is chasing after someone." And so a lot of it is understanding what's your past behavior and how can you make different choices in the future? Then there's understanding what matters and what doesn't for long-term relationship success. And so some of the things that matter less than people think they do are things like looks and money. Yes, hot people are great, rich people are great, sure, but whatever you have, you adapt to it over time. And so the feeling of being wealthy is something that you get used to, and it doesn't impact your life as much as you'd think. People also overestimate having the same personality or having the same interests. Those matter, but they're not actually huge factors. The things that do matter are things like...... loyalty, kindness, someone who's emotionally stable, a person who you can fight well with. Yes, fight well, because fighting is inevitable. Somebody who you can make hard decisions with, and then what's really become the most important one to me, which is what side of you that person brings out, because I don't care about their resume. I don't care about what's on paper. Who are you when you are with them? Because that's who you'll be for a lot of your life.
- CWChris Williamson
One of the conversations we've had a lot on the show recently has been to do with the asymmetries in the dating market, that increasingly women are outearning men, they're out-educating men, and you have an ever-increasing group of high-performing women competing for an ever-decreasing group of ultra-high-performing turbo chads at the top. Given the fact that you've identified there that looks, money, a lot of the status markers that typically are either, uh, utilized, commercialized, weaponized by dating apps and online dating, aren't necessarily the things that predict long-term relationship success, how would you advise girls to try and overcome their, uh, innate hypergamy, their desire to date up and across to find the dude with the six-figure income, that's six-foot tall with a six-inch whatever?
- LULogan Ury
(laughs) Yeah. I mean, there are- there are so many interesting historical things here that I can pull from, including just one example. I remember I went to a talk a few years ago where the guy was talking about how, like, historically most doctors have been men, and men would marry their nurses. And now, actually, a lot of male doctors marry female doctors, and so what does that even mean in ter- terms of, like, intermingling of classes and things like that? But, yes, the number one piece of advice that I would give women is forget about height. I think that setting height filters just really blocks many people from seeing amazing people. And so, yes, when there's a height filter, you might feel tempted to say, "Okay, I'd like to date a guy who's at least six feet tall," and then you make your height minimum six feet tall. And what you may not realize is that only 14% of the American male population is six feet or taller, and only 3.9% of the American male population is 6'3" or taller. And so they're just thinking like, "Yes, that would be nice," but they don't realize, these filters are acting as bouncers, where people under that height are not even making it into your club or the people that you can meet. And so there's really no evidence that height impacts long-term relationship success, and, in fact, I think that, um, maybe my hottest take here would be date the least attractive person who you're attracted to (laughs) , because you're still attracted to that person, you're caring less about what other people think, and you are really maybe finding that hidden gem. And that's a lot of the work that I do with people. It's not settling. Settling is this curse word, the S-word that people are so afraid of. I'm not about settling. I'm about saying, "What are the things that matter? And really go after those. And what are the things that don't? And don't be distracted by them."
- CWChris Williamson
Can you explain the difference between maximizing and satisficing when it comes to decision-making?
- LULogan Ury
Yeah. So there's been amazing research done by Barry Schwartz, and he has a great book called The Paradox of Choice, where he talks about these two different ways of making decisions. So maximizing is that you believe that you wanna turn over every stone, you wanna really do all the research, and you wanna keep looking and looking and looking until you find the perfect solution. Satisficing is saying, "I'm gonna set a bar, and maybe that bar is really high, but once I achieve what I was looking for with that bar, I'm gonna be excited about it and stop looking." And so, for example, if you are looking for an espresso machine at home, the maximizer miser- might read the Wirecutter reviews, they might read Consumer Reports, they might go to 10 different shops, and then they finally decide on getting the Breville at-home espresso machine. But even when they are drinking it, they might think to themselves, "Mm, it is a little bitter. I should have gotten this other one. I made a mistake." And there's this sense of, "You're never done. There could always be something better out there." Whereas the satisficer might say, "Okay, Nespresso is a good brand. I will go to the downtown Nespresso store. I will buy the one that is in my price range and that the salesperson recommends, and then I will go home and feel good about it." And so the maximizers believe that they are getting the objective best result because of their research, whereas the satisficer is the one who's actually happy, because in the end it's not about making the right decision, it's about how you feel about your decision. And the maximizers are never satisfied (laughs) , and the satisficer is able to say, "I got what I wanted and I feel good about it."
- CWChris Williamson
How does this manifest in dating?
- LULogan Ury
This is a huge problem in modern dating, where our culture generally is very focused on maximizers. And so people don't wanna choose a restaurant, choose a hotel, um, choose a purchase without doing tons of research, right? We are the Google, Yelp, TripAdvisor generation, which is fine if you're going to Tulum and choosing among 16 Airbnbs, but it's not fine when you are choosing among thousands of potential partners. And so what does this era of maximizers do? They always keep swiping, thinking their perfect person is one swipe away. And what a satisficer does is they say, "I want someone who I'm attracted to, who would fit in well with my family, who's kind and loyal, and who I enjoy talking to." And when they find that person, whatever their requirements are, they say, "I found this person. They're great. I'm going to invest in the relationship." And they don't sit there saying, "Who else is out there?" And my proverbial coaching couch is full of people who are maximizers saying, "My girlfriend wants me to propose. I really like her, but she's just not interested in abstract ideas, and couldn't I just be with someone who likes trail running a little bit more?" And they are imagining that they could come up with this Frankenstein person, and then that's their perfect partner, instead of saying something like, "I'm really excited about the person that I found, and I am going to build the relationship of my dreams," as opposed to finding the perfect partner.
- 37:04 – 43:32
Personal Dating Tendencies
- CWChris Williamson
You have three dating tendencies, one of which is the maximizer. Can you lay out the rest of that framework for everyone?
- LULogan Ury
Yeah, absolutely. So, as I was writing my book, I really like frameworks, I really like recognizing trends and patterns. I feel like that's sort of what my brain does well. And I was like, "All right, I've talked to all these people. I ..." You know, some of them are older, some of them are younger, different countries. What do they have in common? It felt like this theme was unrealistic expectations. And so the framework is one, the romanticizer, the person who has unrealistic expectations of relationships, who expects that it's going to be butterflies, there's a soulmate for them, it'll always be easy, that they'll know it when they see it. And really, it's this concept of once the relationship starts to feel hard, they think, "Oh, this can't be my soulmate, because it would be effortless with them." The second one is the maximizer, which we've just talked about, unrealistic expectations of their partner. They expect that they're gonna find this perfect partner and then everything will work out, as opposed to investing in the relationship. And then the third one, which has become a much larger group during the pandemic, is the hesitater. They have unrealistic expectations of themselves, and they think, "I'm just not lovable yet. I'm just not ready. I need to be ... I need to lose weight, I need a more impressive job title, I need to clean my apartment, then I'll be ready." And so they have this imaginary date in their mind or moment in their mind where they'll be ready to date, when the truth is, no one's ever 100% ready for anything. And in fact, the only way to get better at dating is by dating. The only way to figure out who you want to be with is by trying on different people in relationships and seeing what works. And sitting at home reading a dating book or thinking about how you might eventually start working out doesn't get you any closer to finding your person.
- CWChris Williamson
Let's say that someone has identified themselves as one of those three. What's your advice for overcoming that tendency for each of those categories?
- LULogan Ury
Yeah, so for the romanticizer, these are often the people who cry when I talk to them, because they're like, "You want me to give up my love story. you're telling me I have to settle." And I'm like, "No, I'm trying to reconfigure in your mind what matters and what doesn't." So the work I do with those people is around giving up on the soulmate. There's so many people out there who could work for you, you can write a life story or a love story with many people. Also understanding that who cares about the we met? People are so few- focused on this idea of the meet cute, right? Like, "We met at the farmer's market," or, "He switched, he switched his seat on the plane and we sat next to each other and talked for six hours." It's like, who cares? If you're gonna be married for 50 years, then the day you met is .0055% of your total relationship. And so really taking away the Disney rom-com Hugh Grant moments and saying like, "What's romantic is this. These are the things that matter. Let's get you into a relationship and help you really focus on the things that matter and the things that don't." For the maximizer, some of it is just understanding what satisficing might look like. And so you made a, kind of a cheeky reference to this before, but yes, there is this idea of the secretary problem, which is this idea that the mathematically correct answer to hiring a secretary is that you go through a third of the possible candidates. You say who was the best person from that group? That's your benchmark person. And the next time that you find someone who you like as much or more than them, you hire them. So you basically say, "Who's out there? I've identified the best of that." And then you identif- then you, um, go after the next person who matches your benchmark so that you don't waste too much time looking, but you don't stop too early. And so for the maximizer it's about understanding, yeah, of course you want to find someone great, but it's also what you bring to the relationship, how you build it together. So stop spending so much time researching and find someone great and build with them. And then for the hesitater, and I think this is a group that I have had a lot of success with during the pandemic, it's saying to them, "Stop hesitating and start dating, and let's make a deadline for you, let's choose a few outfits for your dates, let's help you get more comfortable." Maybe you've gained some weight during the pandemic, maybe it's been a while. That's fine. Let's actually help you just get out there and get your sea legs back, because sitting at home thinking about how you should date just feels frustrating. And so for the hesitater it's really about, how can we create action so that you move towards having the identity of being a dater?
- CWChris Williamson
Are any of your tendencies related to attachment styles?
- LULogan Ury
Yeah, I've definitely found that there's some overlap. I've also found that maximizers can be, um, avoidant attached. So one of the common things with people who have an avoidant attachment style is that they are looking for excuses to push people away. I talk about in my book a woman whose boyfriend wanted to break up with her because she pronounced the word picture, like a picture on the wall, as pitcher, like a pitcher of water. And so it's like, "Really? That's what you're gonna break up with someone for?" And he, in his mind, he turned it into this big thing about education and class and how articulate she was, and how could the mother of my children pronounce it pitcher? And it's like, dude, there's something else going on that is not about the word picture, but you are so focusing on this and maximizing about it as an avoidant strategy. And so I've definitely seen that. I think that many people who have the romanticizer tendencies can be anxiously attached because their vision of love might be that, um, kind of the rom-com, 500 Days of Summer thing where it's love is the chase, love is convincing somebody to be with you, as opposed to love is two people choosing each other. And so I'd say I haven't done a one-to-one analysis, and in fact, in my class the first session is, "What's your dating tendency and what's your attachment style?" And I do have a lot of anxiously attached maximizers who take my class, but-... in general, I think that people come with a whole load of nuanced family background, genetics, histories, et cetera, and that they can be kind of more complicated than just one of these types.
- 43:32 – 51:17
How to Succeed at Online Dating
- LULogan Ury
- CWChris Williamson
I feel like I would be doing a disservice to everybody to not ask someone that works behind the wall at Hinge about how to design an online dating profile. What's the biggest dos and don'ts and wins and losses?
- LULogan Ury
Sure. Yeah. I- I love this topic. I'm super comfortable speaking to it. So, yeah. So, my perspective on a profile is that it's really storytelling, and what is the story that you are trying to communicate? And so when I work with clients, I start by saying to them, "What are the top three things that you wanna communicate with your profile?" So, for someone it might be, "I'm from Boston, I love cooking, and family is really important to me." And I'm saying, "Great. Okay. Let's make sure we get those points across." Then make sure that you're choosing photos and prompt responses that really support that. And so you don't want to repeat, you know, "I love the Red Sox," over and over again. But I wanna- I wanna at least see that represented in one. Another important thing that we found through Hinge research is the importance of variety. So, sometimes I'll see a profile and it's a guy wearing a pair of sunglasses, taking selfies in front of different monuments around the world. I'm like, "Dude, we get it. You travel, but I don't see more of you." And so I want a first photo that's kind of like a headshot where I see your face clearly. No filters, no sunglasses. I want at least one photo that's a full body. People have that question, so you might as well show it. Some activity photos, seeing you do something that you love. Candids work really well. And then also, at least one photo with family and friends. Show us that you have a social life, but not one where you and your 10 mates are playing rugby, and I don't know which one of you are and I have to play Where's Wally with you. And so, really, that should be clear. And then for the prompt responses, sometimes people try to be clever and say, you know, um, certain things like, "I'm ..." You know, what I'm competitive about, and then they write everything. And it's like, no, we wanna see more information about you. That's actually a cliché, so you wanna ignore it. And so really using your prompt responses as a way to communicate who are you, what are you looking for, what makes you different. And remember that your profile is like a T-shirt that you wear into a bar. Whatever you wear, people will respond to. And so if you wear a shirt with Madonna on it, you're gonna have a different conversation than if you wear a shirt with a Game of Thrones character. And they're gonna lead to different conversations, different types of people. And so most people would benefit from being more intentional about their profile. And even if their profile is great, if you're bored of online dating, switch it up, because it will lead to new conversations.
- CWChris Williamson
Did I hear you say that mirror selfies, gym selfies, and smoking-
- LULogan Ury
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... are three big no-nos as well?
- LULogan Ury
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Definitely, um, no smoking. Nothing too controversial that'll turn people off. The gym selfie, it just does not perform well. Selfies, there are some exceptions to that, especially I feel like some women know how to take really good selfies and they know their angles. But in general, those are not the high performers. You wanna go for high-quality photos where it's clear what you look like. If you have a friend with a good camera or portrait mode, you know, go to the beach at golden hour and have your friend make you laugh and take a picture of you laughing. Like, show me what it looks like to be with you and date you. That is so much better than some poorly lit gym selfie where I'm just like, "Oh, another, a- another one of those."
- CWChris Williamson
What about goods and bads practices for online dating beyond the first front window?
- LULogan Ury
Yeah. You know, it depends on what the person's needs are. So, I work with some people who are way too picky, and our work together is helping them be less picky or less picky about the things that don't matter. Sometimes I work with people who need to be more picky. They go on way too many dates with people who are not interesting or are not interested in them. And so there's an element of kind of which category do you tend to fall into. But let's just say that people are being too picky. I would say open it- up your filters, be willing to date someone who's farther away, be open to dating someone who's a little older or a little younger than you might have, and expand your height filters. I would also say that when you are using the app, sometimes people swipe as if, "Would I marry this person or not?" And it should be something like, "Would I be willing to have a conversation with this person or not?" And so for those who are too picky, it's just being more flexible in the early stages, because you don't know who's even gonna convert into a match. For people who are not picky enough, I would say, "How can you have higher standards around who you go on a date with?" And so, um, some people I call ZQ, zero questions. This is often men who just ask no questions. So it's like they're willing to be kind of interviewed, but they don't say, "And what about you? And what about you?" And so I have women who say to me, "A- after the date, I could have written his biography, but he didn't ask me a single question about myself." And when I ask these ZQ men what they're doing, they're like, "Well, if she had something to say, she could have spoken up," or, "I just thought she thought I was so interesting." It's like, no, dude. Good conversation is we are taking turns talking, and you show interest in me and you ask follow-up questions. And so, that's just kind of a general point that, um, people should certainly be making statements, sharing about themselves, and then asking questions so that it feels like a conversation, not an interview.
- CWChris Williamson
Is it true that on average, if you have a conversation where somebody asks more questions, they tend to come across more likable than somebody that makes the same number but of statements?
- LULogan Ury
Yeah. There's really great research on this. It basically shows that the more questions you ask and the less time you spend talking, the more that person thinks you're a great conversationalist. Because essentially, what you're tapping into is people like talking about themselves, people like to be made to feel as if they are fascinating. And so, like right now, you've been asking me questions for an hour, I feel great. I'm like, "Wow," you know, "Chris is so curious about me and I must be so interesting." Even though, like, of course, we're in a dynamic where this is the setup, you're asking me questions, but it feels really good. And so think about that and apply it to dating. It's much more important to be interested, showing interest in the person, than to be interesting. And so when I have people who say to me, "I haven't been on, on a trip in two years and nothing's going on in my life. I'm not interesting. How could I date?" I'm like, "You are at an advantage." It doesn't matter. Just go out there and ask deep questions, flirt with people, be vulnerable, be curious, use a support response where you ask deeper questions about what's going on for them, as opposed to a shift response where you bring the conversation back to you. And this person will think that you are endlessly fascinating.
- CWChris Williamson
I suppose it's difficult if you and somebody else who's also taken the same red pill about how to have conversations in dates, 'cause that's just going to end up with you going, like, "What about you?" "No, no, no, no, no."
- LULogan Ury
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
"What about you?" Uh, so yeah, that could-
- LULogan Ury
That-
- CWChris Williamson
... I could imagine that coming to a stalemate.
- LULogan Ury
That's true. Yeah, yeah, in my dating class, we do a lot of live demos, and I actually did one last week where I made this mistake where I was trying to show how to ask good questions, but I wasn't letting the person ask me questions back, so it really just felt like I was interrogating them. And then two students do it- did it, and I was like, "Thank goodness you went," because they actually took turns asking, responding, going deeper. And so it should not have a feeling of, like, one person is the podcast interviewer and the other one is the guest. You also have to share.
- 51:17 – 1:02:07
Logan’s Issue with ‘The Spark’
- LULogan Ury
- CWChris Williamson
You talk about the spark, and you've got a problem with the spark. What's up with that?
- LULogan Ury
Yeah. The spark is that moment where you feel instant chemistry, you feel fireworks, you feel like the whole world has stopped except for you and this person. And the spark is definitely real. I have certainly felt the spark with people throughout my life. The issue with it, and why I think it's a really big problem in modern dating, is that people are overly optimizing for it. And so my clients would say things to me like, this one guy, Jonathan, would say, "I met this guy. He was great. We had a good conversation. He planned a fun date. I'm not gonna see him again." And when I'd say, "Why?" he'd say, "I just didn't feel the spark." And so he was going on dates expecting to have this magical moment. And so yes, the spark is real, but we also expect to have it too often. And so there's research that only 11% of people experience love at first sight. I would also say that because of the mere exposure effect, we often like things more over time as we're more exposed to them. So it's why we might like a person who lives in our apartment building who we see every day, or you might even like a song the more that you hear it. And so the spark can grow over time. People are sometimes just very sparky. Some people are really good-looking, they're really charismatic. That can also be tied to narcissism. And so certain people give everyone the spark, but you think it's something special with you. And finally, the third issue is that the spark doesn't mean that you have a long-term lasting connection. And many divorced couples or unhappily married couples started with the spark. And so it's enough to kinda get you off the ground, but not to keep going. And so my entire advice, my antidote to this, is to go after the slow burn, which is the person who might not spark with you on the first date, but the more you go out with them, the more you like them over time, the more you peel back the layers and you realize how funny or curious or brilliant they are. And a lot of people have passed them by because they're not sparky, but you could wind up with this amazing, engaging partner because you were willing to give them that second look.
- CWChris Williamson
I think that's one of the most interesting insights that I've taken from the stuff that you've done, which is that the spark can be something systemic about a person and not unique to your interaction with them. And this makes sense, right? I've had tons of conversations about narcissism and dark triad traits-
- LULogan Ury
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and, and stuff like that, and those individuals, they are sparking the guy at the grocery store-
- LULogan Ury
(laughs) Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... they are sparking the bus driver. They... You know, that's just part of their existence. And using that as a proxy for, "There is something exciting about this," meaning there is something that has long-term longevity, it's just a leap that's being made way too much. And I think, again, as well-
- LULogan Ury
Totally.
- CWChris Williamson
... you're seeing one of the problems of culture taking a hold of one very particular element and then just myopically focusing on it and saying, "Well, this is something that's really, really important." And you look at every rom-com movie throughout time... Or actually, no, that's a lie. That, that... I'm, I'm, I'm incorrect. Uh, there are rom-com movies where the good guy that's kind of the hapless romantic that's chasing the girl, she does sometimes end up with, with him. Um, but there is also a lot of push toward the spark. Given that it happens, whatever, 11% of the time, it's definitely not only in 11% of rom-com movies.
- LULogan Ury
Totally. Yeah, absolutely. And so this kinda goes back to the point you made earlier, Chris, which is, like, what is making it into the movies? And it's like, most movies, and there are a few exceptions, like the Before trilogy, most movies are very focused on the meet-cute. Okay, she's so clumsy, he's too focused on work. And then they go through trials and tribulations and then they end up together. But where the movie ends is them coming together as a couple, and then it's the famous three words, right? "They lived happily ever after." But the movie ends at their coming together. It doesn't tell you what's going on year 12 into the marriage when their kid is having trouble at school and they haven't had sex in a year and, and all of this stuff. And so our movies are selling us on the h- on the happily ever after early stage, not the long-term relationship success. And this idea of the spark...... after having written my book and talk- talking to a lot of people about it, like, I totally notice it out and about. Like, if I go to a party or a conference, everyone will kind of be talking about the same person. "Oh, did you meet so-and-so?" "Oh, so-and-so's presentation was so great." It's like, yeah, that person's really sparky and everyone here is drawn to them. And often they're very conventionally attractive, or they make great eye contact with you, or they do that thing where they make you feel interesting-
- CWChris Williamson
That Bill Clinton style, yeah.
- LULogan Ury
... But it's like ... Yeah, the Bill Clinton style thing. Exactly, right? You feel like you're the only person in the room. And it's like, yes, that person is very sparky. We are all feeling a spark with that person. That doesn't mean anything for, like, who we should all be with. And so just knowing that that spark sensation is real, but understanding that it's more representative of that person than your dynamic, I think does really help you move past it.
- CWChris Williamson
That's a huge red pill. That's really, really interesting. I think as well, one of the things that I find so attractive in a relationship is when I admire my partner. Like, if, if I admire the girl that I'm with-
- LULogan Ury
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... then it's such a compelling, um, pull of attraction toward them. However, anybody that has a spark is admirable because you look at them and you think, "Oh God," you know, everybody else wants them. You've got this sort of crowdsourced sense of the toys in the playground type thing. Charisma, generally extroversion, generally, you know, likability, humor, all that stuff that we've talked about. Um, so yeah, decoupling those is, is really interesting. And I think asking yourself the question of seriously, "Is this person just like this with everybody? Or is this person specifically like this because of me?" is probably-
- LULogan Ury
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... a good one to ask.
- LULogan Ury
I think since this is personally you, we could, like, even zoom in on it a little bit more, which is, do you know this concept of the halo effect?
- CWChris Williamson
Yes. Which is people that are good-looking tend, on average, to be treated better by-
- LULogan Ury
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... everyone in society.
- LULogan Ury
Right. And like, I know that I do this all the time. I mean, people even do this with good-looking babies. Th- our whole lives, if you are good-looking, people ascribe positive traits to you. "Oh, she's good luck- looking. She must be generous, she must be kind, she must- must be smart and compassionate." So, part of what you're describing is the halo effect of-
- CWChris Williamson
Charisma.
- LULogan Ury
... when somebody is good-looking, we ascribe all these other traits to them. The other thing that you're talking about, the admiring your partner, yes, that is huge, and I think people should be thinking about that more. So maybe for you or for anyone else who's experiencing this, it's saying, "When I think about admiring someone, I want to admire them because I can learn from them, because they have a passion, because they have pursued their dreams," and really being concrete around what this admiration is, versus this more nebulous halo effect admiration, which is, "Everyone else seems to want them, so I should want them too." It's almost more of the, um, market dynamics or evolutionary biology piece. It's not actually about admiration. It's saying, "Well, if everyone else values them, clearly they are of value."
- CWChris Williamson
What's the difference between sliding and deciding through a relationship?
- LULogan Ury
Yeah. So there's great research on how people make decisions in relationships. And a lot of couples slide, which is they just slip from one relationship moment to the next. So for example, you know, you and I have been dating for six months. My lease is up, and I say, "Hey, Chris, should I renew my nee- my lease or not?" And you're like, "Hmm, that'd be good to split rent. Why don't you move in?" We didn't talk about what does moving in mean to me. Does it mean we're on our way to get engaged? Does it mean we're gonna figure out if we're good partners? Maybe it means nothing. But what other couples do is they decide. They sit down and they actually have a conversation explicitly about what this milestone means. And so they might say, "Moving in to me means we are engaged to be engaged." And the other person might say, "Moving in to me just means we're gonna spend more time together." And then they might say, "Okay, we're not on the same page. Let's actually wait until we are." And the research shows that couples who decide have healthier relationships, they have more passion, they have better sex, they're more likely to survive through the long haul. And so in this theme of intentional dating or intentional love, deciding is the intentional way to make major relationship milestone decisions.
- CWChris Williamson
That was the sense that I had in my mind, this tension between, like, it being natural and spontaneous and emergent, and it being a no. I don't know what people ... I ... There is, almost everybody that's listening to this will be intentional with everything that they do, right? They'll eat intentionally-
- LULogan Ury
Right. Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... they'll sleep intentionally, they'll know the temperature of the air conditioning that they go to sleep in if they're in-
- 1:02:07 – 1:11:54
Knowing When to Break Up with Someone
- LULogan Ury
mistakes.
- CWChris Williamson
Talking about on the other side of relationships, how should people know whether or not they can, can or should break up with their partner?
- LULogan Ury
Yeah. You know, when I set out to do this work, I certainly never thought that I would be talking to people about breakups, but it's become a passion of mine in terms of the unique research that I've done. And I do have a lot of conversations with people where they say, "Should I stay or should I go?" And so I have a few practices that I walk them through. So, one is kind of going off the same theme, saying, "What's your historical tendency? Do you tend to be a hitcher, someone who stays in relationships way too long, past the expiration date? Do you tend to be a ditcher, a person who stays in relationships way too short, always hopping from new relationship energy to the next honeymoon phase, things like that?" So, we talk about that. We talk about, what are you bringing to the relationship? Are you bringing your best self? Have you told the other person how you feel or do you just expect them to magically know what you want? And then, are there external factors? Did one of you lose a job, lose a parent, is somebody going through mental health stuff? Like, is this a temporary moment in time where things could get better? And then I ask them this final question, which is kind of silly, but in this fun abstract way, where I say ... It's called the wardrobe test. And I say, "If your partner were a piece of clothing in your closet, something that you own, what would they be?" And sometimes people say, "My boyfriend is a wool sweater. He keeps me warm, but it's itchy so I have to take it off." Or, "My boyfriend is an ratty T-shirt that (laughs) I would wear to the gym, but I wouldn't want anyone to see me in." And these are real answers that people have given me. I'm like, "Okay, listen to yourself. That's how you actually feel. Taking yourself out of your super rational brain into your emotions, how you feel is that you've outgrown this relationship or that something feels off." And then we work on helping them make a plan to leave. Some people say lovely things, like, "My girlfriend is my favorite pair of pants that I would never have bought for myself but make me feel attractive and fun." And so I like the wardrobe test question because you can make a million pro/con lists, but sometimes you just have to get in touch with how you're actually feeling.
- CWChris Williamson
What's the ... Hitcher and ditcher is such a good, uh, way to kind of split groups up. I think pretty much everybody that I know falls into one of those two categories. What is the typical piece of advice, or the first few pieces of advice that you would give to each person from that group to overcome it?
- LULogan Ury
Yeah. And I would say, you know, I do have a lot of frameworks and terms, some will resonate with some people, some won't. I think there are people that are not hitchers or ditchers, they leave the relationship at the appropriate time, but let's say most people are. For the hitchers, a lot of them is understanding this concept of sunk cost fallacy. So, I'm sure you know this from economics, but if you spent $20 on a concert ticket and then you're deciding if you should go or not, you might say, "Oh, I should go because I spent the $20." It's like, you spent the $20 regardless, it doesn't impact the money if you go. And so this idea of when you made a decision, um, you throw good money after bad and you keep feeling like you have to double down on it, when maybe you can just say, "I'm gonna cut my losses, $20, I'm not gonna go to the concert." And so they feel like, "I've been dating this person for so long, I have to keep going." That's not necessarily true. Maybe you should have left the relationship years ago. And maybe this is a great quality, you're very loyal, you believe that people can change, but you might need a readjustment. For ditchers, and I do think this is highly tied to the avoidant attachment style, there's a feeling of, "Wait, it doesn't feel like it did at the beginning. In the beginning, I was thinking about that person all the time and it was so exciting," and this and that. And then they just feel like they wanna move on to the next thing. And so this is a lot of work where I do with people where I help them understand, love is a drug. When you do brain scans of people who are falling in love, it literally lights up part of their dra- brains that are lit up when they do, you know, drugs like cocaine. And so understanding-
- CWChris Williamson
So, you're saying quit the relationship and start-
- LULogan Ury
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... a cocaine habit?
- LULogan Ury
I'm saying you already have a cocaine habit-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- LULogan Ury
... and the, the cocaine is the love. And so understand that, yeah, you are in this different place and your brain is being stimulated, but that doesn't last forever and it's probably a good thing. And so there is gonna be this transition from falling in love to being in love. And if you just wanna spend your whole life falling in love, and there are people like that, you can do it. But if you want to be in a long-term relationship, get married, be a dad, whatever it is, you're gonna have to accept that the falling will feel different from the being, and how can we make you excited about the being? And I've spoken to a lot of men who, really successful, I really respect, and they talk about how much they love being married, and they're like, "Your partner is this closet where you're hanging these different stories and parts of yourself and memories, and this person has been with you through all of life and you get to have that partner." And that that is really beautiful. And sure, like seducing someone or those honeymoon period feelings are really good, but if you wanna move from the honeymoon stage to the being in love stage, you do have to have different expectations for what that feels like.
- CWChris Williamson
I read a while ago that there's two attraction systems. Is it the-... passionate, and the companionate system. Have you heard these before?
- LULogan Ury
Vaguely, but I'm not super knowledgeable about them. There's a lot of frameworks that are, like, three different types of love and stuff like that, but not, I don't have expertise in it.
- CWChris Williamson
It just matches onto what you're saying here-
- LULogan Ury
Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that you kind of have the, I don't know, that first period that pretty much everybody is, is familiar with. And then when that begins to wane a little bit and it becomes much more of a, a, a friendship, a deep friendship with benefits, and love, as opposed to the sort of head-over-heels obsession that, uh, occurs in the first instance, that kind of ties into the spark thing as well, right? That that's how it should feel all the time. And I think, yeah, that's, that's probably pretty erroneous. So, let's say that someone's got themselves to the stage where they know that the relationship isn't for them. What do you advise people to do if they need to actually pull the pin and get themselves-
- LULogan Ury
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... out of a relationship?
- LULogan Ury
You know, it's so interesting. Someone might ask me, like, "What's, what are some of the most meaningful moments in your work?" And you might think I would say, like, oh, "When I introduced this couple," or, "Helped this person notice red flags." But the things that really stick out to me are helping people get out of relationships that are no longer serving them, because sometimes you really need a push or a partner or a plan. And so I approach breakups like the way that I would approach goal-setting, and I use goal-setting research. And so when I help people plan their breakup, we talk about things like, okay, when are you gonna do this? Let's create a deadline. Let's talk about what you're gonna say, what your main messages are. Let's talk about how you should not have sex afterwards, because that will just be confusing for both of you. Um, there's even conversations around things like, when are you gonna be in touch with them? How long should the conversation be? What are you gonna do to make yourself feel better afterwards? How can you avoid being the nice breakup person who thinks it's nice to check in with them all the time, but actually you're confusing them? And so we really just take the very messy, heartbreaking effort of de-coupling and we turn it into a plan that is compassionate to them and compassionate to the other person, and then I help them execute it and stick to their goal of being broken up.
- CWChris Williamson
What about overcoming heartbreak?
- LULogan Ury
Yeah. You know, breakups ... So, we just talked about this, but if love is a drug, then breaking up with someone often feels like withdrawal, and there's lots of evidence that it's physically painful, that you are, you perform worse on cognitive tests, people are actually more likely to commit crimes. There's some really interesting research on how challenging it is to actually navigate a breakup. And so for anyone listening, I would just say give yourself a beat, this is hard. There are activities that you can do. So, there's great research from Gary Lewandowski who talks about rediscover yourself activities. So, what are the things in your relationship that you didn't really pursue because your partner didn't like them? So, if you love going to the beach but your partner was pale-skinned, maybe you haven't been. If you love jazz and your partner hated it, you weren't going to jazz shows. Go, do more of those rediscover yourself activities, and those people seem to move on from breakups and feel happier than people who just go out there and do kind of, like, generic activities like going for a walk or spending time with friends. You can also do a lot of journaling to sort of help your brain get through the breakup faster, so you can make lists of all the bad qualities about the person, you can make a list of all the parts of the relationship that were bad, and you're basically thinking about your brain as this rationalization monster. And how do you feed the monster? By saying, "Oh, yeah, he was rude to my sister." "Oh, yeah, she never did pick me up from the airport that time." And so you're actually helping yourself remember why it wasn't as great as you might be thinking. And then there's also this expression, "Time heals all wounds." Well, I think the updated version is that meaning heals all wounds, and you can really apply meaning to it by saying, "What did I learn? How will I be different next time? Who should I go for in the future?" And so really, not just assuming that time will make things better, but by really creating a story of, "This was an experience. I am better for it, I am more informed in the future, and I will move on."
- 1:11:54 – 1:12:53
Where to Find Logan
- LULogan Ury
- CWChris Williamson
Logan Ury, ladies and gentlemen. If people want to keep up to date with what you're doing, where should they go?
- LULogan Ury
Yes, people can follow me on Instagram and Twitter @loganury. People can learn more about my class, Date Smarter, at loganyra.com. I have a weekly newsletter they can find out there. And, in general, people can listen to my book, How To Not Die Alone, or pick it up wherever great books are sold.
- CWChris Williamson
I really appreciate you. I appreciate your work. I think it's very interesting to look at dating from a much more scientific background, and then also to have all the data that you get from Hinge. So, I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with over the next few years as well.
- LULogan Ury
Thank you so much. You were so well-researched, great questions. I loved our conversation.
- CWChris Williamson
See you later. What's happening, people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.
Episode duration: 1:12:53
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